Myth: "Standing on your pegs lower the center of gravity" I've had numerous discussions (arguments) regarding the COG; even when I was an MSF instructor. Had I known then, your demonstration of standing atop your saddle could have ended all arguments. Thanks for putting that myth to the rest once and for all. BTW, my daughter who is a Mechanical Engineer happily agrees with you. Sense of stability (two feet vs. one butt) is often mistaken for an advantageous shift in the law of physics ;)
Perhaps the over thinking is that folk confuse COM and COG, and that this is further complicated when talking about singular vs coupled objects. Even further complicated by the differing levels of articulation between two objects (rider vs bike) and the rider’s ability to continuously and dynamically adjust their unique COG/balance during the ride - whether seated or standing
@@mattbgbr wait till you tell an already confused rider that the center of mass can in some instances be located outside the physical body, and watch their mind explode.
It's like people don't even grasp the very basic laws of physics. How can you raise yourself up and LOWER the CG. It's the exact opposite that happens. Unless by some dark magic your density changes and your feet turn to lead or something xD I've never ridden offroad but I immediately thought that standing up position was to dampen the impacts of rough roads on your body. Hell on some bad roads I'll do it briefly and let the bike move under me. What do they even teach in school ?
i think your daughter should stick with mechanical engineering... look into why motogp riders stand their weight fully on their pegs to keep their front wheel down from wheelying... fact!... consider a long pendulum vs short pendulum & youll understand what standing up loose coupled, does... youre bodies mass center line of force channels directly through the foot peg centerline of force... standing isnt a ridgid action
Thanks for the info, Brett. People are always telling me to air down my Africa Twin tires on rough stuff and I always counter with "Brett Tkacs says you shouldn't, and he know more about riding ADV bikes than anyone, so I'm gonna go with his advice." Hasn't failed me yet.
Off road, adventure, knobby tyres are usually narrower than street tyres, especially the front tyres, but also the rear. There is a reason for that and that is so that they can cut through the mud and sand and grab on to the solid ground. The idea of deflating tyres on adventure bikes in order to create a larger contact surface, defeats the purpose for which those tyres were designed. Two thumbs up 👍👍 to Bret for having the ⚽⚽ to come out and say that! (yes tyres & tires are both valid)
Well, not completely true. Reason for offroad tires being more narrow is to change the shape of that contact patch to be more elongated to cut trough sand, mud, etc. but you still need certain amount of contact area to support the weight of the bike and have traction. It is allways a game of compromise with other requirements of different surfaces and different machines.
And that's why also the old 1920 vehicles have narrow and tall tires and wheels, in that times roads were bad and they needed like you say cut to the surface below to get traction!
It's about traction. Anyone that rides technical off road fast knows this. Most adventure riders don't ride fast or hard enough to find the limits so airing down is unnecessary. If you ride extreme terrain on these big bikes as I do occasionally you find airing down becomes necessary. I also run narrow stronger dirt bike rims and full knobby tires. But I agree, running my 50/50 tires on mild trails I don't find the need to air down.
@@endurofly Same with the sandy field tracks in my place. There is no hard ground under the sand. Sometimes a bit harder sand with grass in the middle but with less grass driving in the middle will make your front wheel slide off to the side or better said the sand under your tire will collapse and with catching the heavy bike from falling you might slide off from the other side right away. For normal gravel or dirt tracks you dont need to lower tire pressure but then you get a stretch of half a mile bottomless sand...
Your videos always help instil confidence in my offroading - I no longer second guess tyre pressures, I'm very confident in my brakes and using them in loose terrain, and have been applying the Weightless Rider concept for a couple of years now! Thanks Bret!!
I was an MSF Instructor for over ten years. I greatly appreciated your video. My wife and I pick up our 2022 new KLR Adventure bikes tomorrow and ADV riding is new to us even though we have both ridden for over 40 years. Any and all instruction is greatly appreciated.
While descending a hill I wasn’t sure if using the front brake was ok until I started getting too much speed and gently started using it and it saved me. Now I feel better to know that it’s okay to use.
Absolutely. However, you still need to remain aware that thje front is much more likely to tuck under when it hits a large obstacle on a descent. I tend to try to let off the front a little just before I hit a root or rock as that tends to lift the front slightly. Also worth bearing in mind is that, with the front brake on, you're also shortening the wheelbase which also makes the bike more reactive/less stable. Like any of these things, there's no substitute for experience, so keep practicing.
Thank you for illustrating the rear brake only myth! I bring tour groups around Norway and the amount of times I am told by participants that when we enter the gravel roads the front brake should never be touched is staggering! I have given some of the groups live demonstrations of this but from now I will just show them this video.
I have a portable inflator which is a cool device. But I’ve never really felt the need to deflate off-road. The comparison to 4-wheelers was spot on by a score of 4-2. ⚾️
…and dirt bikes have rim locks as 4 wheelers (who lower down to +/- 5 psi) have beadlocks to prevent the tire (and tube) from slipping on the rim and ripping the valve stem or the tire coming off the rim
Very good point about tyre pressure and choosing somewhere in the middle. That's why I try not to go too low in off-road. For example, normal pressure for my Tiger 900 Rally pro are 2,3 bar in front and 2,9 for the rear. I go 2 bar front and 2,5 or 2,4 rear in order to have still enough pressure riding on road as well. Funny because I had this conversation about that subject last week end during an off-road class and we came to the exact conclusion.
Yes, I am also tiered of background music. It makes it so much harder to concentrate on what the video is about. Many even have the music so load that it is hard to hear what they are saying. Get so tired when watching shit like that.
Great Myth-busting. I stopped airing down the tires on my 1200 GSA years ago, no difference. I stand when I need greater control of the motorcycle in difficult terrain. I rarely touch my rear brake off-pavement, even on steep descents. Here's a GSA-specific myth: A full tank is foolish off-road, too much weight. I really don't feel a difference whether it's 1/4 or 4/4ths. It's a 32# difference on a 600 bike.
@@davemarshall9322 Scary stupid steep! It's ALL about maintaining a controllable speed. Crawl down at 1 mph under complete control using both brakes, and it's easy. Let it get away from you, and you're in trouble.
You can go down a very steep hill slower than walking speed, in complete control, using a single finger on the front brake. Occasionally a student will argue, and I let them try it using the rear brake. Then I walk down and help them pick up the bike, and ask them to try it with the front brake on the next attempt...
Always air down on rough terrain, but never as low as 10psi, 25-29psi is fine. It gives more grip and a smoother ride. Stand up when it's needed. Heaps of front brake!!
1st point (airing down) the only place you may need to on a bike that big is deep sand where there is no fear of taging the rim, or pinching a tube. 2nd point (Stand or sit) absolutely agree, and its often a lot easier on your back to stand up through the rough stuff letting your knees absorb the worst of it. 3rd point (front brake in the dirt) again you are absolutely right, you must use caution of course and let the terrain tell you how much front brake you can use, dry or wet, slippery rocks, roots, off camber etc. With some experience you will just know what you can get away with as the terrain varies under your bike, but you will always be testing the limits of traction with your front brake with every application. The bike will instantly let you know when you are overdoing it :)
Delectable video as always. On the second point, you are right about the lowering of center of gravity being a myth. It’s simple science. Yet, not many instructors mention the main reasons one finds it easier to stand up on pegs off-road. Again, simple physics: when seated, the unintended movement of rider’s body on a bumpy surface upsets the bike much more due to the longer length of the leverage. As when you stand up, body movements first go through the biological shockers we form by our legs, and furthermore, it is exerted at a point so low that form a much shorter leverage which consequently cannot upset the bike too badly. In order words, the wobbliness of the unpredictable non-solid load (the rider’s weight) is well damped.
I've been riding motorcycles for years, but I've been riding wave runners/jet skis even longer. The very first thing I learned was to stand up off the seat when the water got choppy. Otherwise it was going to wreck my spine, hurt my butt, and possibly send me flying off the vehicle. Using the legs as shock absorbers and "floating" saved me a lot of pain and made rides more enjoyable.
Anyone that rides dirt bikes or rides any style bike off road should know you stand over the rough stuff and jumps. The point is to use your legs as a second suspension system. This not only allows you to use your body as a stabilizing weight but also so you can shift your weight forward for climbing hills, back to lighten the front in the soft power or sand, shift your weight to the side to keep the bike upright in turns over loose soils, sand and rocks to help prevent sliding out. Also pressing just one leg against the tank or seat can help stabilize the bike when going slow over rocks, tree stumps, etc. while still allowing you to move your weight from side to side. I love your videos and people should pay close attention to your teachings and practice this on the terrain they ride over. Your tips can take the scary out of taking big bikes into the dirt and help prevent some nasty crashes.
As a vehicle dynamics engineer (though not with motorcycles), I agree completely that standing up primarily decouples your mass from the bike’s. The commonly held belief that standing up causes CG to lower, probably stems from this fact. If the bike and you were two rigid bodies welded together, one could argue that standing up causes CG to actually RAISE, but this isn’t true because your body has muscles which add energy to the system and negate that effect. The biggest advantage of standing up is making the overall CG dynamic - moving your body raises or lowers CG height, and likely more important, fore aft movement affects tire loading which in turn affect grip and steering. It also gives you more leverage to control the bike because you’re using larger muscle groups in your arms and legs rather than smaller ones in your torso. Minor detail: it is untrue that standing up makes your torso unsprung, as this mass is still going through the suspension and rest of the frame structure. You were probably trying to say that it helps isolate your torso and upper body better, which I totally agree with. Thank you for this informative video!
Standing and using your body to isolate it from the movement of the motorcycle would make the rider sprung weight and the motorcycle unsprung from the rider.
Great advice as usual Bret. The whole "front brake bad" myth off-road is real... and tragically dangerous. That said, when I started (and continue) to ride off-road with an Adventure bikes I get some people trying to shame me when I don't air down. Yes, it does help for technical riding, but 90% of the time it doesn't matter for most ADV riding and saves your rims.
Air down: I did it on a 4WD once and nipped the sidewall between the rim and a big rock. Definitely don’t do it on an ADV bike. 😳 COG: other name is centre of mass. Paint a dot between your sternum and belly button. As that moves up and down your COM moves the same. You are always sprung weight. Unsprung = wheels etc. basically everything under your forks. Standing up lets you control a bucking bike better as it decouples you from the bike 👍🏻 Rear brake: it’s a supplement to the front and as your bike pitches forward it will skid. Limited traction on rear for braking. Use both .. carefully 😁 Great video…thanks 😁
Thx Bret & Paul, due to a recent ADV training camp and Your videos I just finished a portion of the WA BDR, with full luggage and a passenger ( my daughter ) on the back. I would’ve never have the courage to do that without your training. Thank You
Thank u Bret, i've had that same discussion with a couple of friends who firmly believe in the lowering center of gravity by standing up, which never made sense to me
I finger the front brake constantly. Even at high speed approaching loose gravel or sand curves. When front braking gently, I have more stability and less fear of over-running the turn. I also think that standing up while riding makes the bike top-heavy and more prone to instability. My final thought is on lowering air pressure in the tires. It's absolutely not necessary especially with a 130 rear or higher Tire. There's enough surface grip from the width of the tire to compensate for any advantage lowering the air pressure would do. I agree, good video
Come ride in Northern Pakistan. Himalayas, Karakoram and Hindu Kush mountains with exceptional hard surface and off roads. Amazing vista's and very hospitable people.
I am going to weigh in on the air down subject. I do not feel that airing down provides additional traction but what I can say with 100% certainty is that in some conditions it makes absolute sense to reduce air pressure. Hard surface roads with small gravel create a marble type surface. Lower air pressure allows the tire to flex better around these objects and create a more stable feel especially in the front end. This prevents the tires from allowing these small gravel pieces from shifting around as much thus giving you the wandering front end feel. 20 psi on the gravel roads was quite a difference from the 32 to 35 psi range that was used on the road. These are recent observations from our Continental divide ride last month. Just my opinion.
Airing down definitely helps. Riding at street 25 psi, my dual sport cannot climb anything in the terrain I ride in. At 12-16psi it makes all the difference in the world, easily climbs and takes bumps much better.
When I was a kid racing motocross on rough tracks with whoop-dee-doos and jumps, standing on the pegs and letting the bike and suspension handle those obstacles, with the rider complimenting with his/her body weight and riding position was how you did it. On my adventure bike it's the same concept in rough and loose (sandy/rocky) terrain. If you are sitting, your body mass tracks with where the bike is going, instead of letting the bike and suspension act as one entity and your body as the other entity. When learning to ride the first generation monoshock YZ 125 Yamahas, I was taught to put your rear end over the back wheel, and keep the throttle pegged over the whoop-dee-doos. It was amazing how much faster you could ride. There is more to it than that, but the basic concept works.
Nice that you confirmed my opinion about NOT reducing air pressure when leaving the pavement. I found the gain in traction neglectable compared to the increasing risk of damaging the rim and getting a puncture. And about the rear brake only myth: totally logical, there is still a weight shift forwards, even on loose ground. What really does magic are modern ABS system in Offroad setting, which on my KTM790 R gives me as short stopping distance as a totally manual interval braking, without the risk to accidentally block the front wheel and crash!
WOW! All three myths that if you talk them over a couple of beers is going to lead to takin' it outside moment!! You are, again, absolutely right! Just in a nutshell- 1. I have really only aired down my tires when about or stuck since I started riding 5 decades ago. 2. I sit to stay relaxed and stand when I have to. Older legs and staying sharp on the bike is what its about AND 3. Geez, my ADV bike has TWO brakes in front and a baby one in the rear. Hmmm, How do they intend for that to work? Just as you show my friend. In conjunction and front braking is NOT a bad thing when you use them correctly. I have had MANY chats by the fire and such about these and most riders disagree with my views. You with your extensive instruction experience started talking on this vid and I am about yelling YES/YES/YES!!! AGAIN, another amazingly informative vid, not only because of how I see things but you break it all down so well. Thank you for all you do. Maybe I gotta work on my people skills... As always, take care and be safe out there!!
More people should get back on a bicycle to experience more of these myth elements. Several years as a bike messenger back in the 90s was a fantastic learning experience of what 2 wheels means. Low tire pressure is always a slow-speed benefit. Standing is about letting the wheel carrier move, not about center of gravity (which I don't think means what people think it means anyhow), and if you want to really know the value of front brakes, try messengering in Seattle on a fixed gear.
Want to start by saying thank you for some real world advice and training ideas. So I left my home in eastern NC mid June this year and spent 30 days doing the Trans American Trail all the way to Port Orford Oregon. Did this on my F800gs Trophy. I watched many of your videos before going. Did 5100+ miles off road then took the highway home. In total we did 10150 miles. All on one set of tires(Dunlop Trailmax Mission) awesome tire with a few thousand left on them. I never aired down once. Not on the deep sand in Mississippi and Oklahoma or the rocks of cinnamon, immigene or engineer pass. I used the front brake way more down hill then I did the rear. Especially down hill. Please keep the videos coming. Planning more trips this fall and next spring.
Great information as always - love your content. I began riding 2 years ago and your videos regarding the importance of body position, and vision have been paramount to my rapid growth and success as a rider. Thanks a thousand times over.
I do “air down” to about 30 psi, which I find makes the off pavement traction more predictable - not necessarily greater, but more consistent. However, I’ve also done emergency braking practice on pavement at those pressures, and rotated the tire on the rim enough to destroy the tire balance, so…
I’ve aired down on my ADV bike and found it to be quite effective on forest service roads. However I don’t air it down anywhere near close to my dirt bike PSI. I’ve gone from about 40 PSI for street to around 25 for off pavement. It seems to handle better for me. But most often I’m too lazy to bother with it and just take a bit more care when I ride on lose gravel since I’m going to end up on pavement sooner or later.
@@T30-z5w I'm going to have to agree with you on this one. On my ADV bike I normally run between 32-36 on the street for best handling but anything offroad at that pressure has me fighting crashing constantly. Mainly the front end washing out on me. I will air down to somewhere between 20-25 psi (After years of testing different pressures on various offroad conditions, 22-23 is my preference) and the front end washing out instantly goes away. It is an incredibly noticeable difference. This is using TKC80 tires riding moderately to aggressively on anything from gravel to singletrack dirtbike trails on my 2016 Aprilia Caponord Rally. On my 2-stroke dirtbike I normally run about 16 psi but that varies based on the terrain of the area I'm riding also.
@@dracer35 I use Heidenau K60 scout and had them originally with 36 and 42 psi with full load. Me 130kg plus luggage. I found it hard and uncomfortable. Even jumping from block to block in the front in turns. Reduced it to 30 and 36 psi and find it much smoother. On gravel its good but for sand i think it is still too much. I will try with lower pressure on sand. Maybe 25 and 32 ps (without luggage). I will see. The sidewalls of the Heidenau seem to be quite strong.
I love the few people in the forums and groups that get mad at me when I answer "what psi for..." questions with "factory spec" or "same as the street."
FINALLY.. the standing-up, center-of-gravity myth explained correctly.. thanks Bret! Every object has a center-of-gravity; the bike has one & the rider has one. CofG of an object is the single point about which the object is perfectly balanced in every direction. Add the rider to the bike and the result is a new, combined CofG which is different than the bike separate from the rider.. The new combined CofG or CCG varies whether the rider is sitting or standing; of course, as you correctly explained, with the rider standing the CCG must be higher- at least in this universe. CCG though static when not moving, becomes dynamic and changes when the bike is moving, as a result of momentum & inertia during fore & aft changes, and as a result of centrifugal force during turning, or any combination of each. The position of the combined center of gravity if the bike & rider has everything to do with where the center of mass is for each; points of contact (footpegs in this case) being irrelevant 🤗
I admire how much faith you have in that kickstand and that frame. As a 300 lb man I humbly bow before you and can only wish I could do that without destroying my kickstand or worse my frame
Great video. I removed my handle bar risers based on recommendations from another B Tkacs video. Happy with the change. I rarely air down anymore. Good tips. When sitting, you weight is further back on the bike, when standing you weight is on the pegs, which are usually farther forward than the seat. More weight on the front wheel, Great explanations. Thanks Bret.
Having rode Trials and Enduro bikes I can say you do alter your center of gravity by standing hence no seat on a trials bike, we squat lean back and pull on the bars therefore changing our load onto the rear tyre and get grip where novices don`t. On braking I would advise to use the rear brake initially this does two things, gives you a feel for the surface and grip safely as it matters not if it slides unlike the front, secondary if grip is available it loads up the front to give better grip where the braking is usually optimal. Tyres trials run at 3..5 to 4 PSI tubless on rear and in dire mud conditions there is two methods of grip, one is smooth in high gear what I do, the second I cant do is high rev`s and spin the tyre this method deforms the tyre so it as a smaller footprint and dig`s in and clears the mud out of the nobbles, seems some experts can only manage this. On an Adventure bike the tyres don`t lend themselves to running low totally agree leave them alone. Tip for balance on a vertical engine is at low speed or stood you can rev hard the engine and it will give a gyroscopic effect and help you out. Great Video and cant imagine how hard it is to ride such a large bike in off road terrain
That stripped down compressor, tho. Amazing how well it's held up without the case. Glad you busted the center of gravity myth. It never made sense. Another benefit of standing is two points of contact and weight can be shifted between them more easily and to a greater degree than shifting cheeks or simply leaning while sitting.
I was going to ask what Air Compressor that is ?? Do you know if that is in a previous video ?? Or maybe it’s a Family Heirloom 😉. Either way…. Small and light. I need it
But even when sitting, you should still be moving body weight from foot to foot and even moving your seated position backward and forward depending on conditions. This then allows you to spend more time resting in the seated position, ready to stand for the trickier stuff Some of the very, very best riders I've known rarely stood at all, they'd only do it when things got very rough. An awful lot can be done by moving around on the bike and still staying seated. That DOES come with experience though, so newbies need to get the basics right and then adapt with experience.
Great video! On the tyres and tyre pressures: This all goes around key complaints I've got with modern adventures bikes and their culture. It's now all about speed and not about getting there. WIth that, we've no got large rims with small sidewalls that make the rims sensitive to all the issues you mentioned. Hence why I prefer smaller bikes that run smaller rims but tyres with big sidewalls. I'm now looking at putting a rear tyre on the front of my 2016 CB500x 17" rim to get the same diameter as the 19" on newer models, but with much, much more sidewall. That's how older dirt bikes did it, like the TW200 as well as old 4x4's (like you mentioned) . I also don't go as fast. On my lightweight Wave 125i, I've already got the tallest tyres that can be installed without major modifications. Those have made a noticable difference on loose gravel and I no longer have to worry as much about snakebite punctures, particularly when running lower pressures.
Just came across your channel. I got my first new gen adventure bike - a 2021 BMW F850GS last September after riding a 1998 Honda Transalp XL600V since 2000. Self-taught, but never really confident. Your videos are a godsend - wish I had known about your South Africa class in time to join it last year! I learn so much from your channel. Thank you!
Having watched a lot of your videos, I've learned of many different ways to approach "difficult" sections of the trail. Since getting back into dirt riding over the last couple years with a Ducati Desert Sled (a lighter bike you know) the ABS started as a nemisis but has turned into a saving grace. No matter what the conditions a smooth even pressure applied with the bar lever or the foot pedal, or both, produces a manageable response. So I'm sayin' that it's possible for an old dog, at 77 to still learn. Having said that I see another one of your videos concerning ABS Off Road-Yes or No? It's never over is it...
Even on my unsophisticated, non-ABS, DRZ400, the front brake works great off-road. It’s never let go, washed out, or caused an incident. The rear brake is only used off-road for steering. As for my KTM 1290SA, the ABS is incredible off-road. It works a treat. It’s imperceptible and far more capable than I am.
So refreshing that you dive straight into the topic with minimal preamble. Well done sir! Airing down has it's detractors not least how do you air back up for the one and a half hour road trip back home without a compressor!
If people get flats from airing down they are too low for the given terrain... airing down really low for gravel roads all day might be fine, but take too low a pressure into the rocky and rooted terrain and you will be fixing pinch flats all day and banging up front rims.
I recently bought my first modern bike so until I started watching a lot of UA-cam videos I’d never thought of airing down. When I saw this being done I wondered how many bent rims are the result of it, I guess lowering the psi a few pounds would give you a softer ride for cow trailing but I wouldn’t want to be bothered.
Good info. I enjoyed one exercise to become more aware of front wheel traction. Going at slow speed and slowly applying front brake until it locks and quickly releasing. This is primarily an exercise most beneficial for riders with non-abs brakes to train the rider to be a sensitive and responsive abs during more aggressive offroad braking.
Thanks Bret another great video that benefits all of us. On the air pressure, many years ago I always aired down my ADV bikes, nowadays I don't really bother because, like you, I can't really tell much advantage and I don't want to have to air back up when back to pavement. I *think* the ride is smoother when airing down my ADV bikes to around 25-30 PSI, but it could be psychological only.
36 psi in the front tire on my GSA makes it skate across gravel and loose dirt. 30-32 PSI in the front makes it hook up and feel more predictable. Airing down below that would be risky. The point is to adjust tire pressure, within reasonable limits, for the best mix of traction and rim safety.
On your second point about standing, I agree for the most part. Standing can make a big difference climbing steep hills when your weight is on the pegs in front of the rear wheel rather than on the seat above the rear wheel.
dear bret, thanks a lot. its so nice listening to you. i agree with everything. best regards from andalucia, the sunny part of motorcycle paradise spain. rolfito. 👋👋
Thanks again for another informative video. You are a master of “Football Physics” with the ability to explain physical phenomenon scientifically yet at a level the common rider can understand and relate to.
Great content Bret. I found you through Mototrek recently which led me to this channel and as a new ADV rider I appreciate the information you provide. I hope to attend your lecture at IMS Nashville.
I think Bret needs to do an airing down video with fortnine (get some science behind this). Even a couple of PSI makes a difference with comfort and traction.
THANK YOU. I have been arguing the CG point forever. You could have pressed the point and showed how standing actually *raises* the CG, because you've lifted a significant part of the weight upwards.
Your videos are the best, always! I was just talking about airing down a few days ago with a friend and I told her even Bret doesn't promote airing down. A mechanic friend of mine explained the positives and negatives about airing down to me years ago. He said about what you did and added people that air down seem to get a lot more flats than people that don't. You asked us to like and subscribe, I was already subscribed and I always like your vids. I'll smile while I ride and enjoy the flowers along the way. Now all I need to do is start saving my pennies so I can take another class from you.
At least I knew about using the front brake. I mean stopping is crucial. The rest I came to learn through riding with Brett and I'll do it again if I can.
Just came back from Ouray/Silverton Colorado area, running up and down from 7500' to 13,000' plus elevation on huge climbs, descents, and switchbacks. Imogene pass, Engineer pass, California pass, Hurricane pass, Yankee Boy Basin, and others. You absolutely can, and have to use your front brake also. Just carefully. I'm on a DRZ400SM with dirt wheels and Tusk Dsport knobby tires, and airing down to 15 or so is a great improvement in traction and absorbing through or up difficult terrain. But on a heavy bike he makes a good point. Mine is probably no more than 350 lbs or so., plus my 200.
Airing down makes the bike less squirrelly on loose gravel. Hard tires tend to slide around over gravel. Lowering the tire pressure in that condition makes a HUGE difference…. Agreed standing on the pegs doesn’t lower the centre of gravity. But does allow your legs to take some of the hits from the suspension. Making the bike a lot more controllable over rough sections… And I agree front brake is needed off road. When the brakes are applied there is a weight shift to the front. So the front has the most traction. But don’t grab a bunch of front brake in a turn. Use more back brake when there is a possibility of the front washing out….
I've been riding for the best part of 60 years - l initially use the recommended tyre pressure, then go for a fairly fast ride on tar - if the tyre feels hot l increase pressure by 5psi, if tyre feels cool l decrease by 5psi (fine tuning it by 1-2psi) until happy - generally this suits my riding style, in soft sand or mud l may drop 5-10 psi then reinflate ASAP
Very good video !!! On my Africa Twin I mostly use 30psi front and 35psi in the rear for everything. Adjusting tire pressure during a ride is a pain. I only use lower tire pressure in deep sand (10-12psi), but make sure to add air before I ride on a rocky section again. You need to be super careful not to hit any rock when the pressure is so low. BTW, I did a lot of testing in the sand dunes next door and noticed that the magic only starts to happen below 15psi. So for me there is no real point to air down the tires let's say from 30 down to 20psi. The benefit of this is barely noticeable, but the risk to damage your wheels gets much much higher. So now I only air down when I spend a longer time in really soft sand (like sand dunes for example, and there 10psi front and 12psi rear is the lowest I can get with UHD tubes and really stiff knobby tires). For general offroad riding, dirt roads etc, airing down is not a good idea with those heavy Adventure bikes. The risk to damage the wheels is way too high. And for the standing up part: It's always funny to see many adventure bike riders directly switch to the standing position the second they get onto a gravel road. There no reason to do that as long as you are not going super fast and there are many holes on the road. Most of those ride do a bad job riding in the standing position and would do much better just sitting on the bike. It gets even worse when I see people riding 2up in the standing position, you need to be circus performers to be able to pull that of. lol.
You've never had a conversation with me, then. I've never aired down, even on the 600 ex-factory Enduro that I have, unless grip was going to be super slippery As for only using the back brake; literally the first time I off roaded I was disabused of that idiotic notion. Nor would I have ever thought that standing would lower the CoG. I'm a scientist, so tend to be very cautious when using these types of description. The scientific explanation for standing up is that you're de-coupling yourself from the bike, which is what Bret said in non-scientific language. normally, de-coupling a part from an already de-coupled (suspended) object can lead to all sorts of problems with waves intersecting and can actually MULTIPLY the forces as well as cancelling them out. This is why it's not a good idea to have spring mounted mirrors, for example. At some speeds they may work fine, but at others they'll be not only bad, but possibly even dangerous. The exception to this ule of not adding a spring on top of a spring is when the upper spring is able to react to the lower one. In this case, your limbs are springs, but your brain makes those springs reactive, you can adjust and even prepare for big shocks. And all of Bret's advice is absolutely solid. However, I would say that standing all the time is not a good idea (I believe Bret has already posted on this subject - certainly others have) standing should be reserved for the trickier parts of trails, while you can sit down on the smoother parts that have little to trouble you. You can often even use the traits of the trail to reduce the fatigue of standing up, just let the first bump in a trickier section lift you onto your feet. One thing I don't think is given anywhere near enough attention is body placement. Even when seated, it is possible to significantly affect the behaviour of the bike just by sitting further over the tank or more towards the tail. But that'll have to be for another time. Oh, ajnd the last thing he says, "Keep smiling" is very valuable advice.
@bretTkacs next time, leave the front tyre pressure nice and high so you don't dent your rim and don't risk a pinch flat (lowering your front tyre that much is actually dangerous in ADV Bikes), but instead lower the rear tyre to something like 15PSI or to a pressure level where you can feel the side wall become soft (we all know that pressure is dependant on temperature and I don't know if it is cold or hot where you are or the tyre is being measured hot or cold ;-) ) then go for a ride in a spot you normally find slippery. Make a video about it and let us know what you think, I'll be curious to see. Thanks for the videos. Cheers
I will never be able to understand how people will get their motorcycle license without even knowing how to brake properly. Always use both brakes when coming to a stop or to slow down. Only use the rear brake when you want to balance the motorcycle a little easier when coming to a full stop (the last few meters) or when you want to slide. Else: use both!
Great video thanks. My first time on a diet bike it has no back brakes at all so 45 mins of riding I only had engine and front brake to stop. I survived but I was being pretty careful on this track
Brent I love all your vids. I have a 2015 KLR and road 26000km with many sets of Michelin Anekee Wild and never aired down, never had bent rims and never had a flat tire. Knock on wood lol
Yup.. those myths are die harder .. my friend from motocross and my mechanic.. keep telling me.. put gas inside the tank and keep ride along .. Thank you Bret
👍I'm riding a converted sportster as an adventure bike (lost of dirt, mud, up and down). Always road pressure. The first thing my suspension technician does when I pull in to his shop is put his hand on my tires. He knows when I've been running too low. And I have to admit I think I get a little better feel. Breaking, always look for Breaking opportunities, break early and balanced between front back and gears. I am not a big stander. I do stand but only when needed. I don't worry about the CG thing. Balance throttle, breaking and steering.
I had just one experience when deflating saved my day. Situation: uphill/downhill twisted steep hard dirt road plenty of loose gravel. That extra surface contact was inmediately felt as much better stability. Driving was standing up all the way, speed was rather low. Pressures: 18 psi front, 22 rear. Upon hitting pavement, inflate to normal. Bike was a fully loaded klr650 for a 4 weeks travel. Place: Chile, Aysén, Queulat National Park into the famous "Cuesta Queulat".
I am dreaming to own a GS 1200 and go to different countries , which may make me going off road. I myself living in area where we get a lot of off roads. You videos really help me. i am not 20 and have been riding motorbikes sicne 2009 but no one ever told such things to us, Even there is no proper biking mentors like you or close to you( skill wise). still ur videos help me a lot
Don’t know about 700lb adventure bikes, but riding my 220lb YZ250X offroad in rough terrain I’m always standing and keeping my feet on the pegs (vs putting a foot down) to keep weight on the tires for traction. The moment your body weight comes off the pegs you start spinning and sliding. Also, if you sit down offroad you’ll get launched to the moon when you hit the next whoop.
Hi Bret, Thanks for another amazing video. You always provide great content, great flow, great editing and great visuals! I particularly liked your inclusion of receiving your drone in what almost looks like a spaceman receiving his baby ship. Well done! With the help of your videos and videos from other channels, I’m happy to share that on my 2018 Honda CRF 250 L ABS I just completed my first week motorcycle tour of over 1000 miles including interstate, rural highway, twisty back roads, gravel roads, dirt roads and mountain trails including highly technical highly rocky serpentine twisty stuff. It was a great and well deserved getaway. Thanks again for the great, helpful and inspiring content, we really appreciate it. Please keep up the great work, have fun and stay safe. Kindly, Dennis
Perhaps because I don’t associate with heavy adventure bike riders (heavy referring to the bikes) I’ve never heard of these myths. And yet, off tarmac, I never air down, freely stand and almost always use both front and rear brakes. Apparently I’m so far behind, I’m ahead . . .
Bret you do a great job explaining these myths, but as an auto engineer with a background in suspensions and chassis controls you correctly explain the difference between sprung and unsprung mass, but that ratio will not change between standing or sitting. To the bike's suspension a rider and all the gear is always sprung mass. By standing you gain comfort and stability along with the added shock absorbing of bending your legs along with the bumps.
Myth: "Standing on your pegs lower the center of gravity"
I've had numerous discussions (arguments) regarding the COG; even when I was an MSF instructor. Had I known then, your demonstration of standing atop your saddle could have ended all arguments. Thanks for putting that myth to the rest once and for all. BTW, my daughter who is a Mechanical Engineer happily agrees with you.
Sense of stability (two feet vs. one butt) is often mistaken for an advantageous shift in the law of physics ;)
Perhaps the over thinking is that folk confuse COM and COG, and that this is further complicated when talking about singular vs coupled objects. Even further complicated by the differing levels of articulation between two objects (rider vs bike) and the rider’s ability to continuously and dynamically adjust their unique COG/balance during the ride - whether seated or standing
@@mattbgbr wait till you tell an already confused rider that the center of mass can in some instances be located outside the physical body, and watch their mind explode.
Better to just say, 'center of mass,' and avoid confusion.
It's like people don't even grasp the very basic laws of physics. How can you raise yourself up and LOWER the CG. It's the exact opposite that happens. Unless by some dark magic your density changes and your feet turn to lead or something xD
I've never ridden offroad but I immediately thought that standing up position was to dampen the impacts of rough roads on your body. Hell on some bad roads I'll do it briefly and let the bike move under me.
What do they even teach in school ?
i think your daughter should stick with mechanical engineering... look into why motogp riders stand their weight fully on their pegs to keep their front wheel down from wheelying... fact!... consider a long pendulum vs short pendulum & youll understand what standing up loose coupled, does... youre bodies mass center line of force channels directly through the foot peg centerline of force... standing isnt a ridgid action
Thanks for the info, Brett. People are always telling me to air down my Africa Twin tires on rough stuff and I always counter with "Brett Tkacs says you shouldn't, and he know more about riding ADV bikes than anyone, so I'm gonna go with his advice." Hasn't failed me yet.
It was a great relief when I learned I didn’t need to air down in the dirt, what a pain airing down and back up when getting back on pavement.
Off road, adventure, knobby tyres are usually narrower than street tyres, especially the front tyres, but also the rear. There is a reason for that and that is so that they can cut through the mud and sand and grab on to the solid ground. The idea of deflating tyres on adventure bikes in order to create a larger contact surface, defeats the purpose for which those tyres were designed.
Two thumbs up 👍👍 to Bret for having the ⚽⚽ to come out and say that!
(yes tyres & tires are both valid)
Well, not completely true. Reason for offroad tires being more narrow is to change the shape of that contact patch to be more elongated to cut trough sand, mud, etc. but you still need certain amount of contact area to support the weight of the bike and have traction. It is allways a game of compromise with other requirements of different surfaces and different machines.
And that's why also the old 1920 vehicles have narrow and tall tires and wheels, in that times roads were bad and they needed like you say cut to the surface below to get traction!
In desert I have hard time to find solid ground under the sand and deflating tyres work just fine.
It's about traction. Anyone that rides technical off road fast knows this. Most adventure riders don't ride fast or hard enough to find the limits so airing down is unnecessary. If you ride extreme terrain on these big bikes as I do occasionally you find airing down becomes necessary.
I also run narrow stronger dirt bike rims and full knobby tires.
But I agree, running my 50/50 tires on mild trails I don't find the need to air down.
@@endurofly Same with the sandy field tracks in my place. There is no hard ground under the sand. Sometimes a bit harder sand with grass in the middle but with less grass driving in the middle will make your front wheel slide off to the side or better said the sand under your tire will collapse and with catching the heavy bike from falling you might slide off from the other side right away. For normal gravel or dirt tracks you dont need to lower tire pressure but then you get a stretch of half a mile bottomless sand...
Your videos always help instil confidence in my offroading - I no longer second guess tyre pressures, I'm very confident in my brakes and using them in loose terrain, and have been applying the Weightless Rider concept for a couple of years now! Thanks Bret!!
I was an MSF Instructor for over ten years. I greatly appreciated your video. My wife and I pick up our 2022 new KLR Adventure bikes tomorrow and ADV riding is new to us even though we have both ridden for over 40 years. Any and all instruction is greatly appreciated.
Thanks for giving back as an instructor.
While descending a hill I wasn’t sure if using the front brake was ok until I started getting too much speed and gently started using it and it saved me. Now I feel better to know that it’s okay to use.
Absolutely. However, you still need to remain aware that thje front is much more likely to tuck under when it hits a large obstacle on a descent. I tend to try to let off the front a little just before I hit a root or rock as that tends to lift the front slightly. Also worth bearing in mind is that, with the front brake on, you're also shortening the wheelbase which also makes the bike more reactive/less stable.
Like any of these things, there's no substitute for experience, so keep practicing.
Thank you for illustrating the rear brake only myth! I bring tour groups around Norway and the amount of times I am told by participants that when we enter the gravel roads the front brake should never be touched is staggering! I have given some of the groups live demonstrations of this but from now I will just show them this video.
I have a portable inflator which is a cool device. But I’ve never really felt the need to deflate off-road. The comparison to 4-wheelers was spot on by a score of 4-2. ⚾️
…and dirt bikes have rim locks as 4 wheelers (who lower down to +/- 5 psi) have beadlocks to prevent the tire (and tube) from slipping on the rim and ripping the valve stem or the tire coming off the rim
Very good point about tyre pressure and choosing somewhere in the middle. That's why I try not to go too low in off-road. For example, normal pressure for my Tiger 900 Rally pro are 2,3 bar in front and 2,9 for the rear. I go 2 bar front and 2,5 or 2,4 rear in order to have still enough pressure riding on road as well. Funny because I had this conversation about that subject last week end during an off-road class and we came to the exact conclusion.
Another great video, Bret and Paul. I really liked the absence of music here. It makes it much more consumable and not sensational.
Complete agree. So much internet content isn’t consumable due to background music.
Yes, I am also tiered of background music. It makes it so much harder to concentrate on what the video is about. Many even have the music so load that it is hard to hear what they are saying. Get so tired when watching shit like that.
Great Myth-busting. I stopped airing down the tires on my 1200 GSA years ago, no difference.
I stand when I need greater control of the motorcycle in difficult terrain.
I rarely touch my rear brake off-pavement, even on steep descents.
Here's a GSA-specific myth: A full tank is foolish off-road, too much weight. I really don't feel a difference whether it's 1/4 or 4/4ths. It's a 32# difference on a 600 bike.
@@davemarshall9322 Scary stupid steep! It's ALL about maintaining a controllable speed. Crawl down at 1 mph under complete control using both brakes, and it's easy. Let it get away from you, and you're in trouble.
You can go down a very steep hill slower than walking speed, in complete control, using a single finger on the front brake. Occasionally a student will argue, and I let them try it using the rear brake. Then I walk down and help them pick up the bike, and ask them to try it with the front brake on the next attempt...
Always air down on rough terrain, but never as low as 10psi, 25-29psi is fine. It gives more grip and a smoother ride.
Stand up when it's needed.
Heaps of front brake!!
1st point (airing down) the only place you may need to on a bike that big is deep sand where there is no fear of taging the rim, or pinching a tube. 2nd point (Stand or sit) absolutely agree, and its often a lot easier on your back to stand up through the rough stuff letting your knees absorb the worst of it. 3rd point (front brake in the dirt) again you are absolutely right, you must use caution of course and let the terrain tell you how much front brake you can use, dry or wet, slippery rocks, roots, off camber etc. With some experience you will just know what you can get away with as the terrain varies under your bike, but you will always be testing the limits of traction with your front brake with every application. The bike will instantly let you know when you are overdoing it :)
You are just DETERMINED to make us better riders. Thank you for that! Excellent video.
Delectable video as always. On the second point, you are right about the lowering of center of gravity being a myth. It’s simple science. Yet, not many instructors mention the main reasons one finds it easier to stand up on pegs off-road. Again, simple physics: when seated, the unintended movement of rider’s body on a bumpy surface upsets the bike much more due to the longer length of the leverage. As when you stand up, body movements first go through the biological shockers we form by our legs, and furthermore, it is exerted at a point so low that form a much shorter leverage which consequently cannot upset the bike too badly. In order words, the wobbliness of the unpredictable non-solid load (the rider’s weight) is well damped.
Yeah. That's what he said. In the video. Up there ☝️☝️
I've been riding motorcycles for years, but I've been riding wave runners/jet skis even longer. The very first thing I learned was to stand up off the seat when the water got choppy. Otherwise it was going to wreck my spine, hurt my butt, and possibly send me flying off the vehicle. Using the legs as shock absorbers and "floating" saved me a lot of pain and made rides more enjoyable.
Delectable is such a creepy word.
Anyone that rides dirt bikes or rides any style bike off road should know you stand over the rough stuff and jumps. The point is to use your legs as a second suspension system. This not only allows you to use your body as a stabilizing weight but also so you can shift your weight forward for climbing hills, back to lighten the front in the soft power or sand, shift your weight to the side to keep the bike upright in turns over loose soils, sand and rocks to help prevent sliding out. Also pressing just one leg against the tank or seat can help stabilize the bike when going slow over rocks, tree stumps, etc. while still allowing you to move your weight from side to side. I love your videos and people should pay close attention to your teachings and practice this on the terrain they ride over. Your tips can take the scary out of taking big bikes into the dirt and help prevent some nasty crashes.
Yep, what you said
As a vehicle dynamics engineer (though not with motorcycles), I agree completely that standing up primarily decouples your mass from the bike’s. The commonly held belief that standing up causes CG to lower, probably stems from this fact. If the bike and you were two rigid bodies welded together, one could argue that standing up causes CG to actually RAISE, but this isn’t true because your body has muscles which add energy to the system and negate that effect. The biggest advantage of standing up is making the overall CG dynamic - moving your body raises or lowers CG height, and likely more important, fore aft movement affects tire loading which in turn affect grip and steering. It also gives you more leverage to control the bike because you’re using larger muscle groups in your arms and legs rather than smaller ones in your torso.
Minor detail: it is untrue that standing up makes your torso unsprung, as this mass is still going through the suspension and rest of the frame structure. You were probably trying to say that it helps isolate your torso and upper body better, which I totally agree with.
Thank you for this informative video!
Standing and using your body to isolate it from the movement of the motorcycle would make the rider sprung weight and the motorcycle unsprung from the rider.
Great Video. I never air down on the bikes.
Great advice as usual Bret. The whole "front brake bad" myth off-road is real... and tragically dangerous. That said, when I started (and continue) to ride off-road with an Adventure bikes I get some people trying to shame me when I don't air down. Yes, it does help for technical riding, but 90% of the time it doesn't matter for most ADV riding and saves your rims.
Air down: I did it on a 4WD once and nipped the sidewall between the rim and a big rock. Definitely don’t do it on an ADV bike. 😳
COG: other name is centre of mass. Paint a dot between your sternum and belly button. As that moves up and down your COM moves the same. You are always sprung weight. Unsprung = wheels etc. basically everything under your forks. Standing up lets you control a bucking bike better as it decouples you from the bike 👍🏻
Rear brake: it’s a supplement to the front and as your bike pitches forward it will skid. Limited traction on rear for braking. Use both .. carefully 😁
Great video…thanks 😁
Thx Bret & Paul, due to a recent ADV training camp and Your videos I just finished a portion of the WA BDR, with full luggage and a passenger ( my daughter ) on the back. I would’ve never have the courage to do that without your training. Thank You
Thank u Bret, i've had that same discussion with a couple of friends who firmly believe in the lowering center of gravity by standing up, which never made sense to me
I finger the front brake constantly. Even at high speed approaching loose gravel or sand curves. When front braking gently, I have more stability and less fear of over-running the turn. I also think that standing up while riding makes the bike top-heavy and more prone to instability. My final thought is on lowering air pressure in the tires. It's absolutely not necessary especially with a 130 rear or higher Tire. There's enough surface grip from the width of the tire to compensate for any advantage lowering the air pressure would do. I agree, good video
Absolutely agree… these myths and many more just WON’T die.
Come ride in Northern Pakistan. Himalayas, Karakoram and Hindu Kush mountains with exceptional hard surface and off roads. Amazing vista's and very hospitable people.
I have only been an ”adventure-rider" for a year, but I have learned everything I know from you, thank you for everything.
I am going to weigh in on the air down subject.
I do not feel that airing down provides additional traction but what I can say with 100% certainty is that in some conditions it makes absolute sense to reduce air pressure.
Hard surface roads with small gravel create a marble type surface. Lower air pressure allows the tire to flex better around these objects and create a more stable feel especially in the front end. This prevents the tires from allowing these small gravel pieces from shifting around as much thus giving you the wandering front end feel.
20 psi on the gravel roads was quite a difference from the 32 to 35 psi range that was used on the road. These are recent observations from our Continental divide ride last month.
Just my opinion.
Airing down definitely helps. Riding at street 25 psi, my dual sport cannot climb anything in the terrain I ride in. At 12-16psi it makes all the difference in the world, easily climbs and takes bumps much better.
Absolutely true
Without a doubt
When I was a kid racing motocross on rough tracks with whoop-dee-doos and jumps, standing on the pegs and letting the bike and suspension handle those obstacles, with the rider complimenting with his/her body weight and riding position was how you did it. On my adventure bike it's the same concept in rough and loose (sandy/rocky) terrain. If you are sitting, your body mass tracks with where the bike is going, instead of letting the bike and suspension act as one entity and your body as the other entity. When learning to ride the first generation monoshock YZ 125 Yamahas, I was taught to put your rear end over the back wheel, and keep the throttle pegged over the whoop-dee-doos. It was amazing how much faster you could ride. There is more to it than that, but the basic concept works.
Bret delivers more wisdom per video than any other off road riding UA-camr I’ve seen.
Nice that you confirmed my opinion about NOT reducing air pressure when leaving the pavement. I found the gain in traction neglectable compared to the increasing risk of damaging the rim and getting a puncture.
And about the rear brake only myth: totally logical, there is still a weight shift forwards, even on loose ground. What really does magic are modern ABS system in Offroad setting, which on my KTM790 R gives me as short stopping distance as a totally manual interval braking, without the risk to accidentally block the front wheel and crash!
WOW! All three myths that if you talk them over a couple of beers is going to lead to takin' it outside moment!! You are, again, absolutely right! Just in a nutshell- 1. I have really only aired down my tires when about or stuck since I started riding 5 decades ago. 2. I sit to stay relaxed and stand when I have to. Older legs and staying sharp on the bike is what its about AND 3. Geez, my ADV bike has TWO brakes in front and a baby one in the rear. Hmmm, How do they intend for that to work? Just as you show my friend. In conjunction and front braking is NOT a bad thing when you use them correctly. I have had MANY chats by the fire and such about these and most riders disagree with my views. You with your extensive instruction experience started talking on this vid and I am about yelling YES/YES/YES!!! AGAIN, another amazingly informative vid, not only because of how I see things but you break it all down so well. Thank you for all you do. Maybe I gotta work on my people skills... As always, take care and be safe out there!!
More people should get back on a bicycle to experience more of these myth elements. Several years as a bike messenger back in the 90s was a fantastic learning experience of what 2 wheels means. Low tire pressure is always a slow-speed benefit. Standing is about letting the wheel carrier move, not about center of gravity (which I don't think means what people think it means anyhow), and if you want to really know the value of front brakes, try messengering in Seattle on a fixed gear.
Want to start by saying thank you for some real world advice and training ideas. So I left my home in eastern NC mid June this year and spent 30 days doing the Trans American Trail all the way to Port Orford Oregon. Did this on my F800gs Trophy. I watched many of your videos before going. Did 5100+ miles off road then took the highway home. In total we did 10150 miles. All on one set of tires(Dunlop Trailmax Mission) awesome tire with a few thousand left on them. I never aired down once. Not on the deep sand in Mississippi and Oklahoma or the rocks of cinnamon, immigene or engineer pass. I used the front brake way more down hill then I did the rear. Especially down hill. Please keep the videos coming. Planning more trips this fall and next spring.
Great information as always - love your content. I began riding 2 years ago and your videos regarding the importance of body position, and vision have been paramount to my rapid growth and success as a rider. Thanks a thousand times over.
I do “air down” to about 30 psi, which I find makes the off pavement traction more predictable - not necessarily greater, but more consistent. However, I’ve also done emergency braking practice on pavement at those pressures, and rotated the tire on the rim enough to destroy the tire balance, so…
Only air down when the bike is fitted with tyre clamps going through the rim
I’ve aired down on my ADV bike and found it to be quite effective on forest service roads. However I don’t air it down anywhere near close to my dirt bike PSI. I’ve gone from about 40 PSI for street to around 25 for off pavement. It seems to handle better for me. But most often I’m too lazy to bother with it and just take a bit more care when I ride on lose gravel since I’m going to end up on pavement sooner or later.
@@T30-z5w Exactly!
@@T30-z5w I'm going to have to agree with you on this one. On my ADV bike I normally run between 32-36 on the street for best handling but anything offroad at that pressure has me fighting crashing constantly. Mainly the front end washing out on me. I will air down to somewhere between 20-25 psi (After years of testing different pressures on various offroad conditions, 22-23 is my preference) and the front end washing out instantly goes away. It is an incredibly noticeable difference. This is using TKC80 tires riding moderately to aggressively on anything from gravel to singletrack dirtbike trails on my 2016 Aprilia Caponord Rally. On my 2-stroke dirtbike I normally run about 16 psi but that varies based on the terrain of the area I'm riding also.
@@dracer35 I use Heidenau K60 scout and had them originally with 36 and 42 psi with full load. Me 130kg plus luggage. I found it hard and uncomfortable. Even jumping from block to block in the front in turns. Reduced it to 30 and 36 psi and find it much smoother. On gravel its good but for sand i think it is still too much. I will try with lower pressure on sand. Maybe 25 and 32 ps (without luggage). I will see. The sidewalls of the Heidenau seem to be quite strong.
I love the few people in the forums and groups that get mad at me when I answer "what psi for..." questions with "factory spec" or "same as the street."
You always explain things better than anyone else. Love the section on sprung and unsprung weight.
FINALLY.. the standing-up, center-of-gravity myth explained correctly..
thanks Bret! Every object has a center-of-gravity; the bike has one & the rider has one. CofG of an object is the single point about which the object is perfectly balanced in every direction. Add the rider to the bike and the result is a new, combined CofG which is different than the bike separate from the rider.. The new combined CofG or CCG varies whether the rider is sitting or standing; of course, as you correctly explained, with the rider standing the CCG must be higher- at least in this universe. CCG though static when not moving, becomes dynamic and changes when the
bike is moving, as a result of momentum & inertia during fore & aft changes, and as a result of centrifugal force during turning, or any combination of each. The position of the combined center of gravity if the bike & rider has everything to do with where the center of mass is for each; points of contact (footpegs in this case) being irrelevant 🤗
I admire how much faith you have in that kickstand and that frame. As a 300 lb man I humbly bow before you and can only wish I could do that without destroying my kickstand or worse my frame
Great video. I removed my handle bar risers based on recommendations from another B Tkacs video. Happy with the change. I rarely air down anymore. Good tips. When sitting, you weight is further back on the bike, when standing you weight is on the pegs, which are usually farther forward than the seat. More weight on the front wheel, Great explanations. Thanks Bret.
Having rode Trials and Enduro bikes I can say you do alter your center of gravity by standing hence no seat on a trials bike, we squat lean back and pull on the bars therefore changing our load onto the rear tyre and get grip where novices don`t. On braking I would advise to use the rear brake initially this does two things, gives you a feel for the surface and grip safely as it matters not if it slides unlike the front, secondary if grip is available it loads up the front to give better grip where the braking is usually optimal.
Tyres trials run at 3..5 to 4 PSI tubless on rear and in dire mud conditions there is two methods of grip, one is smooth in high gear what I do, the second I cant do is high rev`s and spin the tyre this method deforms the tyre so it as a smaller footprint and dig`s in and clears the mud out of the nobbles, seems some experts can only manage this. On an Adventure bike the tyres don`t lend themselves to running low totally agree leave them alone.
Tip for balance on a vertical engine is at low speed or stood you can rev hard the engine and it will give a gyroscopic effect and help you out.
Great Video and cant imagine how hard it is to ride such a large bike in off road terrain
That stripped down compressor, tho. Amazing how well it's held up without the case. Glad you busted the center of gravity myth. It never made sense. Another benefit of standing is two points of contact and weight can be shifted between them more easily and to a greater degree than shifting cheeks or simply leaning while sitting.
I was going to ask what Air Compressor that is ?? Do you know if that is in a previous video ?? Or maybe it’s a Family Heirloom 😉. Either way…. Small and light. I need it
I would also like to know about the compressor. Which model is it?
It's a Motopresser Pocket Pump, it's sold that way with a battery connector.
But even when sitting, you should still be moving body weight from foot to foot and even moving your seated position backward and forward depending on conditions. This then allows you to spend more time resting in the seated position, ready to stand for the trickier stuff
Some of the very, very best riders I've known rarely stood at all, they'd only do it when things got very rough. An awful lot can be done by moving around on the bike and still staying seated. That DOES come with experience though, so newbies need to get the basics right and then adapt with experience.
Great video!
On the tyres and tyre pressures:
This all goes around key complaints I've got with modern adventures bikes and their culture.
It's now all about speed and not about getting there.
WIth that, we've no got large rims with small sidewalls that make the rims sensitive to all the issues you mentioned.
Hence why I prefer smaller bikes that run smaller rims but tyres with big sidewalls. I'm now looking at putting a rear tyre on the front of my 2016 CB500x 17" rim to get the same diameter as the 19" on newer models, but with much, much more sidewall.
That's how older dirt bikes did it, like the TW200 as well as old 4x4's (like you mentioned) .
I also don't go as fast.
On my lightweight Wave 125i, I've already got the tallest tyres that can be installed without major modifications. Those have made a noticable difference on loose gravel and I no longer have to worry as much about snakebite punctures, particularly when running lower pressures.
Just came across your channel. I got my first new gen adventure bike - a 2021 BMW F850GS last September after riding a 1998 Honda Transalp XL600V since 2000. Self-taught, but never really confident. Your videos are a godsend - wish I had known about your South Africa class in time to join it last year! I learn so much from your channel. Thank you!
My UA-cam started recommending this channel from few months and I'm truly great full for that.
Learning a lot.
Thanks Bret.
Love from India.
Having watched a lot of your videos, I've learned of many different ways to approach "difficult" sections of the trail. Since getting back into dirt riding over the last couple years with a Ducati Desert Sled (a lighter bike you know) the ABS started as a nemisis but has turned into a saving grace. No matter what the conditions a smooth even pressure applied with the bar lever or the foot pedal, or both, produces a manageable response. So I'm sayin' that it's possible for an old dog, at 77 to still learn.
Having said that I see another one of your videos concerning ABS Off Road-Yes or No? It's never over is it...
Even on my unsophisticated, non-ABS, DRZ400, the front brake works great off-road. It’s never let go, washed out, or caused an incident. The rear brake is only used off-road for steering.
As for my KTM 1290SA, the ABS is incredible off-road. It works a treat. It’s imperceptible and far more capable than I am.
So refreshing that you dive straight into the topic with minimal preamble. Well done sir! Airing down has it's detractors not least how do you air back up for the one and a half hour road trip back home without a compressor!
Nice to hear full explanation of things instead of "don't do it because i say so". Really good knowledge transfer✌
I am glad someone finally told the truth about "airing-down" - I am done riding with all the flat-fixers all day long!
If people get flats from airing down they are too low for the given terrain... airing down really low for gravel roads all day might be fine, but take too low a pressure into the rocky and rooted terrain and you will be fixing pinch flats all day and banging up front rims.
Your instructional videos are of high value. Been riding dirtbikes and street bikes for years, but just this year, getting into adv riding. Thanks!!!!
I recently bought my first modern bike so until I started watching a lot of UA-cam videos I’d never thought of airing down. When I saw this being done I wondered how many bent rims are the result of it, I guess lowering the psi a few pounds would give you a softer ride for cow trailing but I wouldn’t want to be bothered.
I’ve only been riding for about 4 years now and I always find better off-roading tips from you with my KLR 650.
Great video's Bret. I always used to lower tyre pressures then forgot one day, no difference to ride so always left them at road pressure after that.
Good info.
I enjoyed one exercise to become more aware of front wheel traction. Going at slow speed and slowly applying front brake until it locks and quickly releasing. This is primarily an exercise most beneficial for riders with non-abs brakes to train the rider to be a sensitive and responsive abs during more aggressive offroad braking.
Absolutely agree, I had a puncture once because of that, good advice!
Thanks! Re: standing lowers center of gravity- standing actually RAISES the center of gravity of the rider, and of the rider/bike combined.
Thanks Bret another great video that benefits all of us. On the air pressure, many years ago I always aired down my ADV bikes, nowadays I don't really bother because, like you, I can't really tell much advantage and I don't want to have to air back up when back to pavement. I *think* the ride is smoother when airing down my ADV bikes to around 25-30 PSI, but it could be psychological only.
36 psi in the front tire on my GSA makes it skate across gravel and loose dirt. 30-32 PSI in the front makes it hook up and feel more predictable. Airing down below that would be risky. The point is to adjust tire pressure, within reasonable limits, for the best mix of traction and rim safety.
On your second point about standing, I agree for the most part. Standing can make a big difference climbing steep hills when your weight is on the pegs in front of the rear wheel rather than on the seat above the rear wheel.
I don't disagree... However it doesn't lower the COG. That was the point.
dear bret, thanks a lot. its so nice listening to you. i agree with everything. best regards from andalucia, the sunny part of motorcycle paradise spain. rolfito. 👋👋
Thanks again for another informative video. You are a master of “Football Physics” with the ability to explain physical phenomenon scientifically yet at a level the common rider can understand and relate to.
Great content Bret. I found you through Mototrek recently which led me to this channel and as a new ADV rider I appreciate the information you provide. I hope to attend your lecture at IMS Nashville.
I think Bret needs to do an airing down video with fortnine (get some science behind this). Even a couple of PSI makes a difference with comfort and traction.
I agree with doing something with Ryan after the north border opens up
By far the most informative guy on UA-cam. I never miss a chance to learn n from Bret.
Thanks Nick...
THANK YOU. I have been arguing the CG point forever. You could have pressed the point and showed how standing actually *raises* the CG, because you've lifted a significant part of the weight upwards.
Your videos are the best, always! I was just talking about airing down a few days ago with a friend and I told her even Bret doesn't promote airing down. A mechanic friend of mine explained the positives and negatives about airing down to me years ago. He said about what you did and added people that air down seem to get a lot more flats than people that don't.
You asked us to like and subscribe, I was already subscribed and I always like your vids. I'll smile while I ride and enjoy the flowers along the way.
Now all I need to do is start saving my pennies so I can take another class from you.
At least I knew about using the front brake. I mean stopping is crucial. The rest I came to learn through riding with Brett and I'll do it again if I can.
Very methodical and logical approach in the effort to debunk these myths.
Well said!
You are definitely one of the most useful off-road bike you tubers I’ve found. With the best hats. Thanks guys!
Just came back from Ouray/Silverton Colorado area, running up and down from 7500' to 13,000' plus elevation on huge climbs, descents, and switchbacks. Imogene pass, Engineer pass, California pass, Hurricane pass, Yankee Boy Basin, and others. You absolutely can, and have to use your front brake also. Just carefully.
I'm on a DRZ400SM with dirt wheels and Tusk Dsport knobby tires, and airing down to 15 or so is a great improvement in traction and absorbing through or up difficult terrain. But on a heavy bike he makes a good point. Mine is probably no more than 350 lbs or so., plus my 200.
Great information for any adventure rider. This is common sense and easily disproves the myths.
Lowering the center of gravity by standing up never made sense to me. Great explanation on what the real benefits of standing up are.
Airing down makes the bike less squirrelly on loose gravel. Hard tires tend to slide around over gravel. Lowering the tire pressure in that condition makes a HUGE difference….
Agreed standing on the pegs doesn’t lower the centre of gravity. But does allow your legs to take some of the hits from the suspension. Making the bike a lot more controllable over rough sections…
And I agree front brake is needed off road. When the brakes are applied there is a weight shift to the front. So the front has the most traction.
But don’t grab a bunch of front brake in a turn. Use more back brake when there is a possibility of the front washing out….
I've been riding for the best part of 60 years - l initially use the recommended tyre pressure, then go for a fairly fast ride on tar - if the tyre feels hot l increase pressure by 5psi, if tyre feels cool l decrease by 5psi (fine tuning it by 1-2psi) until happy - generally this suits my riding style, in soft sand or mud l may drop 5-10 psi then reinflate ASAP
First two points were already clear to me, but the third was great to learn. Really clear descriptions/explanations for each point! Nice job
Very good video !!! On my Africa Twin I mostly use 30psi front and 35psi in the rear for everything. Adjusting tire pressure during a ride is a pain. I only use lower tire pressure in deep sand (10-12psi), but make sure to add air before I ride on a rocky section again. You need to be super careful not to hit any rock when the pressure is so low.
BTW, I did a lot of testing in the sand dunes next door and noticed that the magic only starts to happen below 15psi. So for me there is no real point to air down the tires let's say from 30 down to 20psi. The benefit of this is barely noticeable, but the risk to damage your wheels gets much much higher. So now I only air down when I spend a longer time in really soft sand (like sand dunes for example, and there 10psi front and 12psi rear is the lowest I can get with UHD tubes and really stiff knobby tires). For general offroad riding, dirt roads etc, airing down is not a good idea with those heavy Adventure bikes. The risk to damage the wheels is way too high.
And for the standing up part: It's always funny to see many adventure bike riders directly switch to the standing position the second they get onto a gravel road. There no reason to do that as long as you are not going super fast and there are many holes on the road. Most of those ride do a bad job riding in the standing position and would do much better just sitting on the bike. It gets even worse when I see people riding 2up in the standing position, you need to be circus performers to be able to pull that of. lol.
Killed everything I was told by experienced riders. Thanks, Brett!!!
You've never had a conversation with me, then. I've never aired down, even on the 600 ex-factory Enduro that I have, unless grip was going to be super slippery
As for only using the back brake; literally the first time I off roaded I was disabused of that idiotic notion.
Nor would I have ever thought that standing would lower the CoG. I'm a scientist, so tend to be very cautious when using these types of description. The scientific explanation for standing up is that you're de-coupling yourself from the bike, which is what Bret said in non-scientific language. normally, de-coupling a part from an already de-coupled (suspended) object can lead to all sorts of problems with waves intersecting and can actually MULTIPLY the forces as well as cancelling them out. This is why it's not a good idea to have spring mounted mirrors, for example. At some speeds they may work fine, but at others they'll be not only bad, but possibly even dangerous.
The exception to this ule of not adding a spring on top of a spring is when the upper spring is able to react to the lower one. In this case, your limbs are springs, but your brain makes those springs reactive, you can adjust and even prepare for big shocks.
And all of Bret's advice is absolutely solid. However, I would say that standing all the time is not a good idea (I believe Bret has already posted on this subject - certainly others have) standing should be reserved for the trickier parts of trails, while you can sit down on the smoother parts that have little to trouble you. You can often even use the traits of the trail to reduce the fatigue of standing up, just let the first bump in a trickier section lift you onto your feet.
One thing I don't think is given anywhere near enough attention is body placement. Even when seated, it is possible to significantly affect the behaviour of the bike just by sitting further over the tank or more towards the tail. But that'll have to be for another time.
Oh, ajnd the last thing he says, "Keep smiling" is very valuable advice.
Thank you, I never believed the lower center of gravity on pegs thing.
@bretTkacs next time, leave the front tyre pressure nice and high so you don't dent your rim and don't risk a pinch flat (lowering your front tyre that much is actually dangerous in ADV Bikes), but instead lower the rear tyre to something like 15PSI or to a pressure level where you can feel the side wall become soft (we all know that pressure is dependant on temperature and I don't know if it is cold or hot where you are or the tyre is being measured hot or cold ;-) ) then go for a ride in a spot you normally find slippery. Make a video about it and let us know what you think, I'll be curious to see. Thanks for the videos. Cheers
I will never be able to understand how people will get their motorcycle license without even knowing how to brake properly. Always use both brakes when coming to a stop or to slow down. Only use the rear brake when you want to balance the motorcycle a little easier when coming to a full stop (the last few meters) or when you want to slide. Else: use both!
Great video thanks. My first time on a diet bike it has no back brakes at all so 45 mins of riding I only had engine and front brake to stop. I survived but I was being pretty careful on this track
Brent I love all your vids. I have a 2015 KLR and road 26000km with many sets of Michelin Anekee Wild and never aired down, never had bent rims and never had a flat tire. Knock on wood lol
Yup.. those myths are die harder .. my friend from motocross and my mechanic.. keep telling me.. put gas inside the tank and keep ride along .. Thank you Bret
👍I'm riding a converted sportster as an adventure bike (lost of dirt, mud, up and down). Always road pressure. The first thing my suspension technician does when I pull in to his shop is put his hand on my tires. He knows when I've been running too low. And I have to admit I think I get a little better feel. Breaking, always look for Breaking opportunities, break early and balanced between front back and gears. I am not a big stander. I do stand but only when needed. I don't worry about the CG thing. Balance throttle, breaking and steering.
I don't ride adv bikes, but always find these posts interesting
I had just one experience when deflating saved my day. Situation: uphill/downhill twisted steep hard dirt road plenty of loose gravel. That extra surface contact was inmediately felt as much better stability. Driving was standing up all the way, speed was rather low.
Pressures: 18 psi front, 22 rear. Upon hitting pavement, inflate to normal. Bike was a fully loaded klr650 for a 4 weeks travel. Place: Chile, Aysén, Queulat National Park into the famous "Cuesta Queulat".
I am dreaming to own a GS 1200 and go to different countries ,
which may make me going off road.
I myself living in area where we get a lot of off roads. You videos really help me.
i am not 20 and have been riding motorbikes sicne 2009 but no one ever told such things to us, Even there is no proper biking mentors like you or close to you( skill wise). still ur videos help me a lot
Don’t know about 700lb adventure bikes, but riding my 220lb YZ250X offroad in rough terrain I’m always standing and keeping my feet on the pegs (vs putting a foot down) to keep weight on the tires for traction. The moment your body weight comes off the pegs you start spinning and sliding. Also, if you sit down offroad you’ll get launched to the moon when you hit the next whoop.
Hi Bret, Thanks for another amazing video. You always provide great content, great flow, great editing and great visuals! I particularly liked your inclusion of receiving your drone in what almost looks like a spaceman receiving his baby ship. Well done! With the help of your videos and videos from other channels, I’m happy to share that on my 2018 Honda CRF 250 L ABS I just completed my first week motorcycle tour of over 1000 miles including interstate, rural highway, twisty back roads, gravel roads, dirt roads and mountain trails including highly technical highly rocky serpentine twisty stuff. It was a great and well deserved getaway. Thanks again for the great, helpful and inspiring content, we really appreciate it. Please keep up the great work, have fun and stay safe. Kindly, Dennis
Very smart on the air down myth. Even in some trucks taken offroad there are pros and cons.
Thanks Bret!
My last off road riding was 55 years ago. Hill climbing and scrambles and never aired down the tires.
Perhaps because I don’t associate with heavy adventure bike riders (heavy referring to the bikes) I’ve never heard of these myths. And yet, off tarmac, I never air down, freely stand and almost always use both front and rear brakes. Apparently I’m so far behind, I’m ahead . . .
Also I had no idea you were supposed to be scared going over metal bridges....
Bret is a stud. He throws around a huge, loaded bike with confidence. I listen to his advice.
Bret you do a great job explaining these myths, but as an auto engineer with a background in suspensions and chassis controls you correctly explain the difference between sprung and unsprung mass, but that ratio will not change between standing or sitting. To the bike's suspension a rider and all the gear is always sprung mass. By standing you gain comfort and stability along with the added shock absorbing of bending your legs along with the bumps.
I agree with 2 and 3. I still feel better with 5psi less off road. But to each they're own.
I like so much that GS with a 21 inch wheel 😊
Seems to. much for such a little suspension travel.
I never liked the idea of airing down.