3 top myths for riding offroad on an ADV bike
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- Опубліковано 30 вер 2024
- To support this channel go to www.Patreon.com/BretTkacs , for information on training and tours go to www.BretTkacs.com/Training
We hear advise all the time about how we should ride. In this video I address three of the most common myths (lies) I hear about riding offroad on an Adventure motorcycle. The last and final topic about braking is likely the most dangerous offroad myth out there.
Besides discussing standing to lower your center of gravity (mass), airing down and standing I offer a nice lesson at the very end about what air pressure you should use.
Thanks for watching and subscribing.
Myth: "Standing on your pegs lower the center of gravity"
I've had numerous discussions (arguments) regarding the COG; even when I was an MSF instructor. Had I known then, your demonstration of standing atop your saddle could have ended all arguments. Thanks for putting that myth to the rest once and for all. BTW, my daughter who is a Mechanical Engineer happily agrees with you.
Sense of stability (two feet vs. one butt) is often mistaken for an advantageous shift in the law of physics ;)
Perhaps the over thinking is that folk confuse COM and COG, and that this is further complicated when talking about singular vs coupled objects. Even further complicated by the differing levels of articulation between two objects (rider vs bike) and the rider’s ability to continuously and dynamically adjust their unique COG/balance during the ride - whether seated or standing
@@mattbgbr wait till you tell an already confused rider that the center of mass can in some instances be located outside the physical body, and watch their mind explode.
Better to just say, 'center of mass,' and avoid confusion.
It's like people don't even grasp the very basic laws of physics. How can you raise yourself up and LOWER the CG. It's the exact opposite that happens. Unless by some dark magic your density changes and your feet turn to lead or something xD
I've never ridden offroad but I immediately thought that standing up position was to dampen the impacts of rough roads on your body. Hell on some bad roads I'll do it briefly and let the bike move under me.
What do they even teach in school ?
i think your daughter should stick with mechanical engineering... look into why motogp riders stand their weight fully on their pegs to keep their front wheel down from wheelying... fact!... consider a long pendulum vs short pendulum & youll understand what standing up loose coupled, does... youre bodies mass center line of force channels directly through the foot peg centerline of force... standing isnt a ridgid action
Your videos always help instil confidence in my offroading - I no longer second guess tyre pressures, I'm very confident in my brakes and using them in loose terrain, and have been applying the Weightless Rider concept for a couple of years now! Thanks Bret!!
Another great video, Bret and Paul. I really liked the absence of music here. It makes it much more consumable and not sensational.
Complete agree. So much internet content isn’t consumable due to background music.
Yes, I am also tiered of background music. It makes it so much harder to concentrate on what the video is about. Many even have the music so load that it is hard to hear what they are saying. Get so tired when watching shit like that.
It was a great relief when I learned I didn’t need to air down in the dirt, what a pain airing down and back up when getting back on pavement.
Thanks for the info, Brett. People are always telling me to air down my Africa Twin tires on rough stuff and I always counter with "Brett Tkacs says you shouldn't, and he know more about riding ADV bikes than anyone, so I'm gonna go with his advice." Hasn't failed me yet.
…and dirt bikes have rim locks as 4 wheelers (who lower down to +/- 5 psi) have beadlocks to prevent the tire (and tube) from slipping on the rim and ripping the valve stem or the tire coming off the rim
Another mith is needing a cute hat and a magician flair in swapping it for a helmet 😂
truly remarkable even frame by frame, some talent right there
All us baldies develop that skill...! 😂
@@KingLoopie1 nah I just rock the bold look👍
@@waterhouse235 Better to be bald than balding! Rocking a bald head looks great, I wish every dude who’s loosing it would just take the plunge.
@@KingLoopie1 he insists this has nothing to do with being bald.
Great Myth-busting. I stopped airing down the tires on my 1200 GSA years ago, no difference.
I stand when I need greater control of the motorcycle in difficult terrain.
I rarely touch my rear brake off-pavement, even on steep descents.
Here's a GSA-specific myth: A full tank is foolish off-road, too much weight. I really don't feel a difference whether it's 1/4 or 4/4ths. It's a 32# difference on a 600 bike.
@@davemarshall9322 Scary stupid steep! It's ALL about maintaining a controllable speed. Crawl down at 1 mph under complete control using both brakes, and it's easy. Let it get away from you, and you're in trouble.
You can go down a very steep hill slower than walking speed, in complete control, using a single finger on the front brake. Occasionally a student will argue, and I let them try it using the rear brake. Then I walk down and help them pick up the bike, and ask them to try it with the front brake on the next attempt...
Always air down on rough terrain, but never as low as 10psi, 25-29psi is fine. It gives more grip and a smoother ride.
Stand up when it's needed.
Heaps of front brake!!
Perhaps because I don’t associate with heavy adventure bike riders (heavy referring to the bikes) I’ve never heard of these myths. And yet, off tarmac, I never air down, freely stand and almost always use both front and rear brakes. Apparently I’m so far behind, I’m ahead . . .
Also I had no idea you were supposed to be scared going over metal bridges....
Thanks Bret another great video that benefits all of us. On the air pressure, many years ago I always aired down my ADV bikes, nowadays I don't really bother because, like you, I can't really tell much advantage and I don't want to have to air back up when back to pavement. I *think* the ride is smoother when airing down my ADV bikes to around 25-30 PSI, but it could be psychological only.
I do “air down” to about 30 psi, which I find makes the off pavement traction more predictable - not necessarily greater, but more consistent. However, I’ve also done emergency braking practice on pavement at those pressures, and rotated the tire on the rim enough to destroy the tire balance, so…
Only air down when the bike is fitted with tyre clamps going through the rim
I’ve aired down on my ADV bike and found it to be quite effective on forest service roads. However I don’t air it down anywhere near close to my dirt bike PSI. I’ve gone from about 40 PSI for street to around 25 for off pavement. It seems to handle better for me. But most often I’m too lazy to bother with it and just take a bit more care when I ride on lose gravel since I’m going to end up on pavement sooner or later.
@@T30-z5w Exactly!
@@T30-z5w I'm going to have to agree with you on this one. On my ADV bike I normally run between 32-36 on the street for best handling but anything offroad at that pressure has me fighting crashing constantly. Mainly the front end washing out on me. I will air down to somewhere between 20-25 psi (After years of testing different pressures on various offroad conditions, 22-23 is my preference) and the front end washing out instantly goes away. It is an incredibly noticeable difference. This is using TKC80 tires riding moderately to aggressively on anything from gravel to singletrack dirtbike trails on my 2016 Aprilia Caponord Rally. On my 2-stroke dirtbike I normally run about 16 psi but that varies based on the terrain of the area I'm riding also.
@@dracer35 I use Heidenau K60 scout and had them originally with 36 and 42 psi with full load. Me 130kg plus luggage. I found it hard and uncomfortable. Even jumping from block to block in the front in turns. Reduced it to 30 and 36 psi and find it much smoother. On gravel its good but for sand i think it is still too much. I will try with lower pressure on sand. Maybe 25 and 32 ps (without luggage). I will see. The sidewalls of the Heidenau seem to be quite strong.
Excellent Video! This should be mandatory viewing before any off road class. Forgot to get the fuzzy dice for my bike though ;)
Come ride in Northern Pakistan. Himalayas, Karakoram and Hindu Kush mountains with exceptional hard surface and off roads. Amazing vista's and very hospitable people.
I think Bret needs to do an airing down video with fortnine (get some science behind this). Even a couple of PSI makes a difference with comfort and traction.
I agree with doing something with Ryan after the north border opens up
My bike weighs 460lbs WITHOUT my fat ass on it. If it hits something hard like a rock or root, that tire is flexing around it whether it's at 20psi or 36. I'm with Bret on this one :D
I have a portable inflator which is a cool device. But I’ve never really felt the need to deflate off-road. The comparison to 4-wheelers was spot on by a score of 4-2. ⚾️
While descending a hill I wasn’t sure if using the front brake was ok until I started getting too much speed and gently started using it and it saved me. Now I feel better to know that it’s okay to use.
Absolutely. However, you still need to remain aware that thje front is much more likely to tuck under when it hits a large obstacle on a descent. I tend to try to let off the front a little just before I hit a root or rock as that tends to lift the front slightly. Also worth bearing in mind is that, with the front brake on, you're also shortening the wheelbase which also makes the bike more reactive/less stable.
Like any of these things, there's no substitute for experience, so keep practicing.
Absolutely agree… these myths and many more just WON’T die.
Off road, adventure, knobby tyres are usually narrower than street tyres, especially the front tyres, but also the rear. There is a reason for that and that is so that they can cut through the mud and sand and grab on to the solid ground. The idea of deflating tyres on adventure bikes in order to create a larger contact surface, defeats the purpose for which those tyres were designed.
Two thumbs up 👍👍 to Bret for having the ⚽⚽ to come out and say that!
(yes tyres & tires are both valid)
Well, not completely true. Reason for offroad tires being more narrow is to change the shape of that contact patch to be more elongated to cut trough sand, mud, etc. but you still need certain amount of contact area to support the weight of the bike and have traction. It is allways a game of compromise with other requirements of different surfaces and different machines.
And that's why also the old 1920 vehicles have narrow and tall tires and wheels, in that times roads were bad and they needed like you say cut to the surface below to get traction!
In desert I have hard time to find solid ground under the sand and deflating tyres work just fine.
It's about traction. Anyone that rides technical off road fast knows this. Most adventure riders don't ride fast or hard enough to find the limits so airing down is unnecessary. If you ride extreme terrain on these big bikes as I do occasionally you find airing down becomes necessary.
I also run narrow stronger dirt bike rims and full knobby tires.
But I agree, running my 50/50 tires on mild trails I don't find the need to air down.
@@endurofly Same with the sandy field tracks in my place. There is no hard ground under the sand. Sometimes a bit harder sand with grass in the middle but with less grass driving in the middle will make your front wheel slide off to the side or better said the sand under your tire will collapse and with catching the heavy bike from falling you might slide off from the other side right away. For normal gravel or dirt tracks you dont need to lower tire pressure but then you get a stretch of half a mile bottomless sand...
Delectable video as always. On the second point, you are right about the lowering of center of gravity being a myth. It’s simple science. Yet, not many instructors mention the main reasons one finds it easier to stand up on pegs off-road. Again, simple physics: when seated, the unintended movement of rider’s body on a bumpy surface upsets the bike much more due to the longer length of the leverage. As when you stand up, body movements first go through the biological shockers we form by our legs, and furthermore, it is exerted at a point so low that form a much shorter leverage which consequently cannot upset the bike too badly. In order words, the wobbliness of the unpredictable non-solid load (the rider’s weight) is well damped.
Yeah. That's what he said. In the video. Up there ☝️☝️
I've been riding motorcycles for years, but I've been riding wave runners/jet skis even longer. The very first thing I learned was to stand up off the seat when the water got choppy. Otherwise it was going to wreck my spine, hurt my butt, and possibly send me flying off the vehicle. Using the legs as shock absorbers and "floating" saved me a lot of pain and made rides more enjoyable.
Delectable is such a creepy word.
Just making a comment because Bret asked me to…. guess he gets UA-cam points or something.
It helps the video "push" to new viewers. Thank you 😊
@@BretTkacs no worries. I don’t normally comment, but it’s good know that it helps you out. Great info in that video, BTW. I knew when you mentioned changing CG by standing up was B.S., but hadn’t thought about unsprung weight reduction.
I only now saw you have only 75k subs...how? i was expecting to see 1-2 million at least...
Me too 🤣
@@BretTkacs I’ve done my part…anyone who rides a dirt capable bike that I know, I’ve shared your video’s with them. Their loss if they don’t subscribe and miss out on all your great content.
You are just DETERMINED to make us better riders. Thank you for that! Excellent video.
I like so much that GS with a 21 inch wheel 😊
Seems to. much for such a little suspension travel.
I have another myth for you...training isn't worth as much as experience. This is a myth I have believed for a long time but after attending several different courses, including yours, I have realized that plenty of bad experiences can be avoided by doing the work for training with proper professionals.
I was originally going to do 5 myths... That was on the list 😁
the good thing about training courses, of any kind, is that you only have to remember one thing, to potentially save your life
Great content Bret. I found you through Mototrek recently which led me to this channel and as a new ADV rider I appreciate the information you provide. I hope to attend your lecture at IMS Nashville.
Will add that rock crawlers and off road Jeep’s use locking rims so the tire does not spin off rim!
And dirtbikes too...
I am going to weigh in on the air down subject.
I do not feel that airing down provides additional traction but what I can say with 100% certainty is that in some conditions it makes absolute sense to reduce air pressure.
Hard surface roads with small gravel create a marble type surface. Lower air pressure allows the tire to flex better around these objects and create a more stable feel especially in the front end. This prevents the tires from allowing these small gravel pieces from shifting around as much thus giving you the wandering front end feel.
20 psi on the gravel roads was quite a difference from the 32 to 35 psi range that was used on the road. These are recent observations from our Continental divide ride last month.
Just my opinion.
Airing down definitely helps. Riding at street 25 psi, my dual sport cannot climb anything in the terrain I ride in. At 12-16psi it makes all the difference in the world, easily climbs and takes bumps much better.
Absolutely true
Without a doubt
While at a dealer meeting at a ski resort we went on a four wheeler ride and coming down the slope the leader took a sharp left. I hit the rear brakes and immediately started to slide on the wet grass fearing I was going to run into the guy in front of me. Finally something in my small brain clicked and I grabbed the front brakes and immediately regained control. I really don't like ATV's but they made me a lot of money. On motorcycles I've always used the front brakes. I don't know why I thought ATV;s would be different. Again small brain.
36 psi in the front tire on my GSA makes it skate across gravel and loose dirt. 30-32 PSI in the front makes it hook up and feel more predictable. Airing down below that would be risky. The point is to adjust tire pressure, within reasonable limits, for the best mix of traction and rim safety.
I love the few people in the forums and groups that get mad at me when I answer "what psi for..." questions with "factory spec" or "same as the street."
I never liked the idea of airing down.
Great video! I already shared it among fellow riders, and it's a hot topic :D
Trail Braking is a technique i am trying to master for gravel roads on an ultra lite dual sport Beta 300rr
I think I need to do an unpaved trailbraking lesson.
Thank you for illustrating the rear brake only myth! I bring tour groups around Norway and the amount of times I am told by participants that when we enter the gravel roads the front brake should never be touched is staggering! I have given some of the groups live demonstrations of this but from now I will just show them this video.
On the street I run 32F and 36R
Off-road I run 22F and 26R
Much better on and off road traction!!
I like standing while off-road riding - learned this from hunting moose and deer from my dirt bike.
Air down and AIR ALL THE WAY DOWN are 2 completely different things. On a bike, you're referring TO THE REAR TIRE to get better traction...
RE: standing on pegs lowers Center of Mass, center of gravity
I disagree with Bret.
I have some experience with this idea. I’ve been riding dirt bikes for over 50 years.
Standing on the pegs DOES “effectively” reduce the CG and mass of the motorcycle because your body is decoupled from the bike. Your body does not have to move side-to-side with the bike. Without your body mass, the bike alone does have a lower CG when it comes to tilting the bike for maintaining balance or maneuvering around an obstacle.
Consider this:
When standing, your feet become a pivot point and your weight is applied very low on the bike, which allows you, the rider, to use the mass of your body (as you float above the bike) as leverage to shove the bike from side to side for maneuvering the bike.
Also, your weight on the pegs is much closer to the pivot point (tire contact) for tilting the motorcycle, so without the mass of your body, YES, the bike itself now has a lower CG.
The process does, however, work much better with a lighter dirt bike.
Perhaps Bret’s methods are limited by his huge 500 lb. bike.
Don’t know about 700lb adventure bikes, but riding my 220lb YZ250X offroad in rough terrain I’m always standing and keeping my feet on the pegs (vs putting a foot down) to keep weight on the tires for traction. The moment your body weight comes off the pegs you start spinning and sliding. Also, if you sit down offroad you’ll get launched to the moon when you hit the next whoop.
If I'm going lite I'll air down 4,5,6 pounds less than the tires manufactured maximum rated.....
I'd say let people air down - crack and break those nice Takasagos n' Dirtstars...Of course Bret, this is the only way 'people' can learn: making mistakes and applying harsh self-criticism... Not very widespread in our microcosm where certitudes and technicist fetishism is the rule... Or save the rims and watch this important video !!
You nailed them Brett....great to hear you talk about these topics. All three topics are ones I bring up with almost every student or new big bike rider I ride with and I always get the same old response...but "they told me I should" Wish I knew "they" were so I could point them to your vids. Are you still riding in the Cap forest? I cut my off-road teeth on my 990 in there for years before we headed to the desert. Wish we had crossed paths. Thanks for all you've done/are doing for the dirty ADV crowd. Cheers from Utah.
I finger the front brake constantly. Even at high speed approaching loose gravel or sand curves. When front braking gently, I have more stability and less fear of over-running the turn. I also think that standing up while riding makes the bike top-heavy and more prone to instability. My final thought is on lowering air pressure in the tires. It's absolutely not necessary especially with a 130 rear or higher Tire. There's enough surface grip from the width of the tire to compensate for any advantage lowering the air pressure would do. I agree, good video
I stand on the pegs on a bumpy road so that my spine won't take a jarring. Legs make great shock absorbers. I have never heard any explanation, never needed one. It should be intuitive. Lowering the center of gravity is flat out ridiculous.
I'm assuming this big open area is in Washington or Oregon. Does anyone recognize where this is, because I'm just trying to find room to practice some stuff in the dirt like turns and emergency stopping. Thanks!
I only aired down for rock crawling or sand in my Jeep. I like using the suspension of my motorcycles.
My ADV is a 1984 Honda XL350R. I ride it most days. When it dies I’ll find another one.
Having rode Trials and Enduro bikes I can say you do alter your center of gravity by standing hence no seat on a trials bike, we squat lean back and pull on the bars therefore changing our load onto the rear tyre and get grip where novices don`t. On braking I would advise to use the rear brake initially this does two things, gives you a feel for the surface and grip safely as it matters not if it slides unlike the front, secondary if grip is available it loads up the front to give better grip where the braking is usually optimal.
Tyres trials run at 3..5 to 4 PSI tubless on rear and in dire mud conditions there is two methods of grip, one is smooth in high gear what I do, the second I cant do is high rev`s and spin the tyre this method deforms the tyre so it as a smaller footprint and dig`s in and clears the mud out of the nobbles, seems some experts can only manage this. On an Adventure bike the tyres don`t lend themselves to running low totally agree leave them alone.
Tip for balance on a vertical engine is at low speed or stood you can rev hard the engine and it will give a gyroscopic effect and help you out.
Great Video and cant imagine how hard it is to ride such a large bike in off road terrain
Great Video. I never air down on the bikes.
Airing down makes the bike less squirrelly on loose gravel. Hard tires tend to slide around over gravel. Lowering the tire pressure in that condition makes a HUGE difference….
Agreed standing on the pegs doesn’t lower the centre of gravity. But does allow your legs to take some of the hits from the suspension. Making the bike a lot more controllable over rough sections…
And I agree front brake is needed off road. When the brakes are applied there is a weight shift to the front. So the front has the most traction.
But don’t grab a bunch of front brake in a turn. Use more back brake when there is a possibility of the front washing out….
Brent I love all your vids. I have a 2015 KLR and road 26000km with many sets of Michelin Anekee Wild and never aired down, never had bent rims and never had a flat tire. Knock on wood lol
What works for cars or trucks doesn't necessarily mean it will work for bikes, we have such skinny tires in comparison we want to cut through the loose stuff and find the hard ground for traction, we cant afford to be sliding everywhere, thats being me experience anyway
I will never be able to understand how people will get their motorcycle license without even knowing how to brake properly. Always use both brakes when coming to a stop or to slow down. Only use the rear brake when you want to balance the motorcycle a little easier when coming to a full stop (the last few meters) or when you want to slide. Else: use both!
I think everyone who ride enough will figure this out...to see people standing on nice gravel roads mile after mile is really weird.
That is how most people ride here in Sweden, standing as soon they hit some gravel.
That stripped down compressor, tho. Amazing how well it's held up without the case. Glad you busted the center of gravity myth. It never made sense. Another benefit of standing is two points of contact and weight can be shifted between them more easily and to a greater degree than shifting cheeks or simply leaning while sitting.
I was going to ask what Air Compressor that is ?? Do you know if that is in a previous video ?? Or maybe it’s a Family Heirloom 😉. Either way…. Small and light. I need it
I would also like to know about the compressor. Which model is it?
It's a Motopresser Pocket Pump, it's sold that way with a battery connector.
But even when sitting, you should still be moving body weight from foot to foot and even moving your seated position backward and forward depending on conditions. This then allows you to spend more time resting in the seated position, ready to stand for the trickier stuff
Some of the very, very best riders I've known rarely stood at all, they'd only do it when things got very rough. An awful lot can be done by moving around on the bike and still staying seated. That DOES come with experience though, so newbies need to get the basics right and then adapt with experience.
Everytime I aired down the front tire of my 800 GS I got a puncture... 🙄
Great video!!! Very helpful!!! Why did you go back to the 1200 GS?
Tried and true and durable as hell... My 790 wasn't reliable enough to trust on a tour or when training. I am going to try a Triumph 900 Tiger for awhile but the GS is staying.
The 790 is now my designated "dirtbike"
@@BretTkacs yes! Looking forward to the review of the Tiger 900 RP. I have one and absolutely love it, but it’s all that I know.
@@BretTkacs I'm considering an 890 Adventure for 80/20 road/offroad use. I hear they don't have the 790 problems. Will I be disappointed?
Thank you, I never believed the lower center of gravity on pegs thing.
How about the option on turning off the ABS when off-roading?
That's a video into itself
dear bret, thanks a lot. its so nice listening to you. i agree with everything. best regards from andalucia, the sunny part of motorcycle paradise spain. rolfito. 👋👋
Myth 4: If you don't stand up as soon as you leave paved roads, you're going to die.
Nothing wrong with taking a little rest on non-technical bits to save energy for the big stuff.
I made a video on that one 😁👍
I made the mistake of airing down my GS after listening to someone. Result - rim damage 😢
Bret! I just mounted the Trailmax Missions myself. How do you like them so far?
I was about to ask the same thing.
I'm on my second set, and love them for anything but deep mud and sand. Still go through it, but they are very squirmy.
@@skytower309 Thanks for the input. I mounted mine, but only have 100 miles of mixed on-road and mild offroad so far. They seemed to handle fine in the gravel, babyheads and hard-packed, but when I got to the 2+ inch deep sand and silt, they were definitely squirmy.
Have you had them out in the rain yet? I've seen a lot of mixed reviews about their wet weather performance. Ironically some of it from the same reviewer in different videos. Living in the PNW... we get the occasional rain drop.
@@TyrellMidland the only time I ever worried about rain was riding on old chip seal roads. Even then I didn't have a problem. The tires give you plenty of warning before they finally break free.
I ride a 19 super tenere, fairly aggressively on road. Off road, I don't have as much skill, so I'm not very aggressive. With that said, I still did the Vermont leg of the BDR, without an issue.
My last off road riding was 55 years ago. Hill climbing and scrambles and never aired down the tires.
I was an MSF Instructor for over ten years. I greatly appreciated your video. My wife and I pick up our 2022 new KLR Adventure bikes tomorrow and ADV riding is new to us even though we have both ridden for over 40 years. Any and all instruction is greatly appreciated.
Thanks for giving back as an instructor.
Couple things…. I disagree with your talk about lowering pressure giving more traction to be a “myth.” I think what you’re saying is you as an advanced rider and riding sensibly don’t really require airing down. Traction is safety and I will usually air down but no lower than 28 to protect my rims or closer to 10 rarely such as when I need to climb a sandy hill (Baja). In Death Valley I stay near 38 because I’m a better rider now, need the protection from rocks and am too lazy to air down/up 😂. Second, I think your COG is a distinction without a difference. What it does to the COG is less important than the gain in handling, not to mention visibility or simply cooling off and/or resting your ass. Third, I’m not sure it’s actually a myth that one should only use the rear brake only because I’ve never heard anyone say that. Also, check the audio track on your intro as it was silent.
Well said Eric..
we 4x4 and do NOT "air down".. unless it's a literal sand dune...
Another thing that I value when I go standing up into the motorcycle off road, is that I let the motorcycle move freely and do not shake my whole body with it, that gives me more security since I do not move as much as the motorcycle, and on the other hand side I release her from my weight in her movement
A question about tire pressure. The pressure on road is 35 Psi, and I have been recommended to lower it to 26 Psi on Off road. Although it is a drop in pressure, they are not as low as the 10 psi you mention in the video. What do you think of lowering them to 26 psi in the maxi trials like Tenere 700 or KTM 790, or do you prefer to continue with 35 Psi?
I am glad someone finally told the truth about "airing-down" - I am done riding with all the flat-fixers all day long!
If people get flats from airing down they are too low for the given terrain... airing down really low for gravel roads all day might be fine, but take too low a pressure into the rocky and rooted terrain and you will be fixing pinch flats all day and banging up front rims.
Always enjoys your videos, they are well done and very informative.
Yeah I've heard the explanations about the CG of the rider/bike interface and what is traditionally touted never made sense to me, because it is a myth what has been stated. I work as a mechanical engineer and operate a CAD station every day, so I do have a good grasp of physics to be able to do the work I do. Your explanation was good. Mass isn't about pressure on the ground due to gravity. Mass is about where mass is located and how one body of mass affects another body of mass, if connected in some way. Think of it as putting a rider and motorcycle in outer space, and asking the same question, where is the CG located now? For the average person, it's pedantic and pointless. hahaha
The issue is not where the CG is or whether riders should be concerned about such pedantic stuff. The issue is how the rider affects the bike, and how that in turn affects wheel oscillation and traction, no matter what the surface. Riders standing on the pegs I think is mostly out of need to stretch, to get a commanding view, or to create a decoupled interface between rider and bike to avoid getting one's kidneys pounded to pulp.
The sprung vs unsprung weight topic was not clear......sitting or standing does not change the ratio of sprung/unsprung....does it? Fortunately, didacticism(?) was held in check by not delving into the effects of the unsprung wheel's rotating mass.
I would say the takeaway is that standing is better when stability dictates being as detached from the machine as possible...which means rough terrain.
@@johndavis2399 "Sprung" mass in the motorcycle industry is referring to the mass sitting on top of the coil springs. "Unsprung" mass is industry terminology referring to the mass below the coil, or opposite side of the spring. Ignoring gravitational force, assume rider and bike have no gravitational force for a moment but are connected to the ground. Now pass the ground beneath the wheels and introduce some abrupt bumps. The portion that moves is the "unsprung," while the inertia or mass of the sprung resists upward motion, the result is a compressing spring.
The rider is also a mass, but with one's legs being the contact point to the bike, think of the leg and the knee being another form of a coil spring (it's obviously not a perfect correlation but good enough for this demonstration). As the mass of the motorcycle now pushes up against the rider, the "sprung" mass which is the rider's main body resists upward movement and the knee becomes the compressing spring.
Three sources of mass: the operator, motorcycle chassis (an everything bolted to it), and wheel assemblies. The spring between the wheels and the bike is one spring. The spring (legs with knees) between the bike and the operator is another spring. These three masses interact with those spring connection points.
What is sprung and un-sprung in this system is relative to which hunk of mass a person is referring to, relative to what is moving against it. The operator sitting on the seat eliminates the second "spring" so essentially (minus seat foam) the motorcycle and rider become a connected cohesive mass.
A coil spring's job is to resist compression force, to stop a mass from movement. The shock absorber's job is to control the acceleration/deceleration of the spring's movement when forces overcome the spring's static resistance.
@@exothermal.sprocket Thanks for the detailed explanation LA.......yes, ."inertia" is involved here as well..
Brett, how are you liking the Dunlop trailmax mission?
I also have the same question regarding the Dunlop trail max mission. I mounted them on my 2013 tiger 800xc and so far have found them to be very good. Your opinion is important to me and Bret, your videos are the best. Thank you!
Very good video !!! On my Africa Twin I mostly use 30psi front and 35psi in the rear for everything. Adjusting tire pressure during a ride is a pain. I only use lower tire pressure in deep sand (10-12psi), but make sure to add air before I ride on a rocky section again. You need to be super careful not to hit any rock when the pressure is so low.
BTW, I did a lot of testing in the sand dunes next door and noticed that the magic only starts to happen below 15psi. So for me there is no real point to air down the tires let's say from 30 down to 20psi. The benefit of this is barely noticeable, but the risk to damage your wheels gets much much higher. So now I only air down when I spend a longer time in really soft sand (like sand dunes for example, and there 10psi front and 12psi rear is the lowest I can get with UHD tubes and really stiff knobby tires). For general offroad riding, dirt roads etc, airing down is not a good idea with those heavy Adventure bikes. The risk to damage the wheels is way too high.
And for the standing up part: It's always funny to see many adventure bike riders directly switch to the standing position the second they get onto a gravel road. There no reason to do that as long as you are not going super fast and there are many holes on the road. Most of those ride do a bad job riding in the standing position and would do much better just sitting on the bike. It gets even worse when I see people riding 2up in the standing position, you need to be circus performers to be able to pull that of. lol.
Air down: I did it on a 4WD once and nipped the sidewall between the rim and a big rock. Definitely don’t do it on an ADV bike. 😳
COG: other name is centre of mass. Paint a dot between your sternum and belly button. As that moves up and down your COM moves the same. You are always sprung weight. Unsprung = wheels etc. basically everything under your forks. Standing up lets you control a bucking bike better as it decouples you from the bike 👍🏻
Rear brake: it’s a supplement to the front and as your bike pitches forward it will skid. Limited traction on rear for braking. Use both .. carefully 😁
Great video…thanks 😁
Waiting for you to come out to Baja - I know you like riding here! :D
Even on my unsophisticated, non-ABS, DRZ400, the front brake works great off-road. It’s never let go, washed out, or caused an incident. The rear brake is only used off-road for steering.
As for my KTM 1290SA, the ABS is incredible off-road. It works a treat. It’s imperceptible and far more capable than I am.
I agree with 2 and 3. I still feel better with 5psi less off road. But to each they're own.
Great video, thanks Bret. I see you are riding Dunlop Trailmax Mission tyres. How do you find them/ what are your thoughts on using them?
He's using them so can't be that bad. Maybe it's the replacement for the E-07 he recommended before. He didn't like the karoo3 on his ktm
Great advice as usual Bret. The whole "front brake bad" myth off-road is real... and tragically dangerous. That said, when I started (and continue) to ride off-road with an Adventure bikes I get some people trying to shame me when I don't air down. Yes, it does help for technical riding, but 90% of the time it doesn't matter for most ADV riding and saves your rims.
I don't ride adv bikes, but always find these posts interesting
Nice video, good topics well explained, Thanks.
Number 2 about standing, well humans where designed to balance on feet not the butt…. At least that is what tbi clinics beat into my head no pun intended
Combining Off Roading with Aviation. Check out my backcountry flying videos with my heavily modified monster bush plane “Ghost”. 🤙❤️ We should get together and do a collab.
Very interesting and something to seriously think about, thanks.
Thanks for clarifying all of those. Would you consider a KLR650 an adventure bike?
Yes I would
As a vehicle dynamics engineer (though not with motorcycles), I agree completely that standing up primarily decouples your mass from the bike’s. The commonly held belief that standing up causes CG to lower, probably stems from this fact. If the bike and you were two rigid bodies welded together, one could argue that standing up causes CG to actually RAISE, but this isn’t true because your body has muscles which add energy to the system and negate that effect. The biggest advantage of standing up is making the overall CG dynamic - moving your body raises or lowers CG height, and likely more important, fore aft movement affects tire loading which in turn affect grip and steering. It also gives you more leverage to control the bike because you’re using larger muscle groups in your arms and legs rather than smaller ones in your torso.
Minor detail: it is untrue that standing up makes your torso unsprung, as this mass is still going through the suspension and rest of the frame structure. You were probably trying to say that it helps isolate your torso and upper body better, which I totally agree with.
Thank you for this informative video!
Standing and using your body to isolate it from the movement of the motorcycle would make the rider sprung weight and the motorcycle unsprung from the rider.
What about the front break on thick gravel roads? I’m always scared my front end is going to wash out especially front breaking on a curve in gravel
I use my front brake everytime with rare exception
Very good point about tyre pressure and choosing somewhere in the middle. That's why I try not to go too low in off-road. For example, normal pressure for my Tiger 900 Rally pro are 2,3 bar in front and 2,9 for the rear. I go 2 bar front and 2,5 or 2,4 rear in order to have still enough pressure riding on road as well. Funny because I had this conversation about that subject last week end during an off-road class and we came to the exact conclusion.
oh brother... airing down, you ride to the air pressure AND you pressure to your ride, 20psi is our starting point down... generally... depending on tire stiffness... center of mass standing? sprung & unsprung weight, simple??...pendulum effect changes the bike reactions resonance response to ground irregularities & traction/slip... brakes I agree wholey but in combination dependent on braking to stop vs positioning the bike... common sense isnt common... neither is experience... of the bike ... or the terrain you're riding on the day... critical thinking... seems to be more & more elusive with a spoon fed generation... cheers from NZ
🤣
Thanks Bret. Hope to have the money to take one of your classes.
Thx Bret & Paul, due to a recent ADV training camp and Your videos I just finished a portion of the WA BDR, with full luggage and a passenger ( my daughter ) on the back. I would’ve never have the courage to do that without your training. Thank You
Nice video Bret, during the whole video I was thinking what is so different in your GS12000 until I realized that you have 21" front wheel on it. I think I have never seen that before on any GS1200 before.
I have a video on that conversion
Thanks for the public service announcements.
Great video, as always! But do you really need to advertise your channel that much? I mean, it's good quality and I think whoever came here will subscribe anyway, if they recognise quality
True...
Gee, my 790’s manual lists street pressure at 35 and off-road pressure at 26 psi. Better go tell KTM that airing down is wrong…
10:33... Start with the manufacturer recommended pressures.
Great video!
On the tyres and tyre pressures:
This all goes around key complaints I've got with modern adventures bikes and their culture.
It's now all about speed and not about getting there.
WIth that, we've no got large rims with small sidewalls that make the rims sensitive to all the issues you mentioned.
Hence why I prefer smaller bikes that run smaller rims but tyres with big sidewalls. I'm now looking at putting a rear tyre on the front of my 2016 CB500x 17" rim to get the same diameter as the 19" on newer models, but with much, much more sidewall.
That's how older dirt bikes did it, like the TW200 as well as old 4x4's (like you mentioned) .
I also don't go as fast.
On my lightweight Wave 125i, I've already got the tallest tyres that can be installed without major modifications. Those have made a noticable difference on loose gravel and I no longer have to worry as much about snakebite punctures, particularly when running lower pressures.
It should also be remembered that off-road truck tyres are designed to be aired down, which enables the sidewall lugs to come into play.
And the bugs in your teeth tells everyone you are a happy bicker.
Great clip. It is useful Thailand 🇹🇭
Great video's Bret. I always used to lower tyre pressures then forgot one day, no difference to ride so always left them at road pressure after that.