Cheap HF vs expensive Esab welder comparison: Deep dive
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- Опубліковано 11 лип 2024
- In this episode we look at 280$ harbor freight titanium 225 and a Esab rogue 180/200 welders. What do you get for the money?
All about arc force: • How to stick weld 👨🏻🏭...
0:00:00 Intro
0:02:17 The front end
0:07:01 The back end
0:10:50 output amperage
0:15:32 The testing setup, and lets test them
0:19:45 stingers and ground clamps
0:26:17 Weld inspection
0:30:47 The test results
0:30:09 Recap
0:44:00 Conclusion
Yet another fantastic tutorial. Thank you for sharing.
No problem 😀
One of the most informative videos I’ve seen. Thx
No problem 😃. You really do get a lot more when you look at it up close. Luckily even the cheaper harbor freight welds great and gives a lot of capability. Better equipment is generally worth the extra though 😀
Great video! Thanks for providing the test data and helping us understand how efficiency affects the breakers. Nice to see a break down of what makes a machine more costly, yet beneficial depending on how it will be used. ie garage vs generator
No problem. One of the things I wish is that welder companies were a bit more honest about ratings and maybe even used the same testing criteria. Not to mention when you actually use a machine enough to get a feel for it you can pick clear winners, spec sheets aren’t everything. The biggest disappointment I have had in a welder was one that had the “best specs” on paper but when using the machine it was frustrating. Kind of like a iPhone vs a cheap knock off, they might be similar but when you use them one is clearly better lol.
Great info yet again, thanks man!
You’re welcome 😀
Really solid review- i think this justifies my purchase of thr esab. Thanks!
The esab rogue series is an excellent welder. I have been a fan of them for a long time and esab in general. Definitely worth the money 😀
@@makingmistakeswithgreg I want to try their 10p plus 6010 with mine- sounds like a neat rod!
Another great video. The actual electrical performance was interesting to be sure. I've realized if I look for a first welder that is an inverter type machine vs buying an old used monster, it will be a much cheaper 240v circuit run at 30amp vs a 55amp run. The efficiency is wild that 80% to 90% is converted into actual useful output, gone are the days of wasting energy to heat loss. I think a serious home gamer would be well served to pinch their pennies to get a high quality machine. That said, the harbor freight is looking like a great entry point into welding for the novice.
I've realised that like most things, the expensive machines in many ways are the best place for a beginner to start EXCEPT for the price.
They have fancy tricks to them like hot start, arc force, anti stick etc which really help you learn and avoid so many of the nasty snags in Welding like your rod getting stuck all the time.
As long as a veteran sets these parameters to take the complications out.
Cheaper machines might not have all this 'support' and may require a very skillful Welder to get good work out of consistently, being a real frustration for a beginner Welder.
However, no beginner Welder should be spending bug bucks on their first machine. Luckily many cheaper machines these days have all the fancy stuff at lower prices.
But I noticed this with Guitars that the more you pay for a guitar generally the easier the thing is to play but you started out on an awful cheap acoustic guitar and it took three times as long to learn as it should have...
The old transformer machines are reliable and tend to work well, but there isn’t a day I would take a tombstone over the HF 225. In todays world the modern inverter machines are actually so much more useful and honestly weld better than many machines in the past. The physical size differences and weight make the new machines far more useful, lugging a 70lb+ box that needs a 50a output to output 150amps is long gone lol.
Another great welder video, thanks Greg.
I'd love to see an efficiency test with the Rebel.
I will be doing a bunch more efficiency tests with the new rebel vs the fp200. I am hoping to see over 80% out of the rebel. Mig welders will be less efficient than a stick welder because they have a wire drive to run, and in the case of the rebel it has a display. If it hits 80+ percent it will be huge, because the fp200 is around 55-60% and all that extra efficiency means more power output 😀
Good job Greg, I also have a Titanium 225 and love it. I did upgrade the cables and stinger but after using a 60 year old Lincoln AC225 this was like going from a Yugo to a BMW.
No doubt the ac225 can get the job done, but I would rather weld with the titanium 225 any day of the week. You’re not stuck to specific amp setpoints, the dc output produces more penetration, and it will run many rods better. And you can actually bring it to where you’re working without breaking your back lol.
What a great video
Great comparison. That's awesome to see the Rogue output 123A on 120V. The higher 120V output was a big selling point for me over the Titanium. I was actually going back and forth between the Esab and the Fronius since Fronius advertises 120A on 120V. The $2700+ price tag on the Transtig was too much to swallow for a first stick/tig welder. Pretty cool to think that I could throw a generator, a job box, and the Rogue on my little HF trailer and basically have a basic mobile welding outfit. Welders have come a long way in the last decade or so. Thanks for taking the time to do these comparisons.
The fronius is a good welder. The struggle I have with fronius is nobody sells/services them here (multiple hour drive to get to a company that does). I live in the biggest city in Wisconsin so that’s pretty crazy nobody sells them. With esab the 3 year warranty I have a bunch of places I can take it to if I need it, same with miller and Lincoln. The rogue series is a very solid welder and I built a ton of stuff with the 180 I had. The fact you can literally weld thick steel on 120v is amazing. They definitely have come a long way.
Great video very informative and great to see compassion for HF @ esab the only problem with the whole thing down here in fla there is nobody really pushing the esab's anymore due to survivability. That is the biggest complaint I've seen with them that's what swayed me from getting a esab. Don't get me wrong I see nothing wrong with them with me being in the armpit of America have to use a machine that has a good serviceability that's how I ended up with the Primeweld.
Just hearing some speak proper Midwestern (WI presumably) earned my sub.
Thanks for the sub and you are correct on the Wisconsin identification 😀
Native Cheesehead here-- Dad from East (Shawano/Gresham), Mom from Sparta/Viroqua area. Grew up in Neillsville/marshfield area.@@makingmistakeswithgreg
Wow Greg, another deep dive that presents way more analytical value than I thought available for this simple subject.
So first, I have to admit I was quite surprised that Esab works with the 14AWG over the 12. That honestly startled me and to some extent I still ponder the legality of choosing that grade of wire overall since 14AWG really should NOT be used for 'welding'. 14 gauge wiring is designed for no more than a 20 amp wall circuit so why they manufacture it with this lower grade wiring has me perplexed.
2, Your overall summary is absolutely, perfectly stated and I agree 100%; what do you get? You get a far more efficient machine. The question, and you covered this, is what can you afford? HF positively provides several welders for the common cost effective DIY'er and their Flux Core 125 is another cost effective solution. I've used that welder for YEARS and it continues to run like a racehorse without any issues so I've certainly saved money with that little demon. Let's also acknowledge that HF's warranties are second to none; just bring it in and get a replacement and walk out and pay up the new warranty.
So, for #3, HF does NOT actually provide all the best bang for the buck in their lineup. Their MIG/Unlimited 140/170/200 models are clearly overpriced and under-efficient, especially compared next to this Esab. Their prices may be a smidgen more cost friendly and again a great warranty but if I'm over the $500-$700.00 range - beyond the DIY'er budget, you might as well go for more quality and as you presented here, this Esab not just provides it, but delivers it with damning efficiency and MORE options!
I'm sold on the review and the day my Stick 225 goes, I'm definitely going to look at Esab for my next one. Your vid on the efficiency tells me the company built it well, and somehow was able to do this with an un-orthodox wire size which I am still perplexed over, but suppose I have to trust since the industry truly loves them as a manufacture.
Thank you Greg, absolutely remarkable review as always.
I too agree that the 14ga is suspect. They are relying on its thermal protection (aka duty cycle shut off) to control excessive heat buildup in the wire, and relying on duty cycle clauses in code is my guess. I will have to look over the machine for ratings and testing approvals. Right now all I see in the manual is intertek listed, which seems to approve most anything. I believe the HF arguably meets a higher standard. It definitely draws more power which would require bigger wire.
I totally agree about harbor freight not providing the best bang for the buck in all classes. The titanium 125 and 225 are solid well known reliable options from them. I have used the titanium 170 and 200 Mig models, and they work good, but their price is too high to be competitive in my opinion. It’s very common to find other brand machines close to the same price and they often have better parts and design. I also tested either the 170 or the 200 (can’t remember which because the welders look identical) and it was in the ballpark of 50% efficiency. My fp200 is only around 60%, but many others tend to be over 70%. If they came with a 2 or 3 year instore warranty they could justify the price I think. Once you cross over to esab/Lincoln/miller/Hobart/etc you get a warranty of 2-3 years with all of them, not 90 days.
I have used a rogue 180 for a lot of hours (I built 2 complete off road vehicles with it (all suspension parts, axle trusses, frame modifications, bumpers, beadlock wheels, etc) and hundreds of hours of side jobs without any issues. I did most of it out of the driveway of the place I used to own, and welded with snow on the ground. The only reason I sold it was to afford to buy a miller 161sth that had a better tig function (at the time the rogue 200 didn’t exist). I really like it and the rogue 200 I currently have. I like the miller 161sth more but it’s 2.5x the price of the rogue 200 and is not worth that. Realistically the rogue and rebel series I think are all awesome machines. They aren’t the best at everything they do in my opinion (tig tends to lag behind others), but they are excellent for what they are designed for: efficient and portable welders than will handle portable work outside.
Wow I've never seen a breakdown like this... A few years of watching youtube welding videos and nothing quite this detailed. Thank you so very much for helping me understand the numbers. Indeed I have one of those cheapo $100 stick welders, was my starter, and when you push the higher amps, it breaks the 20 Amp breaker instantly. Also no way I can hold a 3/32 arc on it. Thankfully I have the 120/240 Titanium Mig Machine... though I do wish I went with a multi process. Need the TIG option.
Yeah, the difference between cheap and higher end is pretty significant. I actually have a part two to this video coming out soon and in it I revisit the efficiency testing along with looking at the output wave forms of DC with an oscilloscope. Not surprisingly they are night and day different. The great thing is though, despite the two machines being significantly different, they both actually function well and are capable of building a ton of stuff.
I think I've watched this video a dozen times trying to absorb it all. This is *so* useful and helpful. And my spamming comments helps the algorithm, right?
It may, I still don’t quite know what the algorithm likes or doesn’t like. Click bait is great for it, but bad for the long term lol. When I come out with a video on “stacking dimes” with mig I bet that will get a lot of views because it’s popular lol.
2nd.😂
My first inverter was a quite cheap 200amp "Stahlwerk ARC 200". It was astonishing to me how easyly it outnumbered the old but former very pricy transformer machine of my father.
One thing I'm always excites about is the powerdistribution in the US. You are having 120 and 240V one phase commonly available in buildings where we in Europe have only 230V one Phase but commonly 400V 3-phase available also, where this is in the US dedicated to industries. But the amp-rating on the 120 and 240V lines in the US seem to be reasonable higher than in europe especially in germany where a common 230 outlet is rated 10 amps continuous and 16 amp peak. The 3-phase is a completely different animal then, because there are 16, 32 and sometimes 64 amps available. The welders capable 200A or some 230 A that are designed for the "houshold" powersockets here really drive these, the wiring and the breakers to their maximum. And this pictures the differences in efficency perfect: while a "chinese" welder repeatedly trips the breakers on 160 A, a "EWM" won't even on 200A output.
I have done a lot of reading on how electrical grids came to be and honestly it’s pretty ridiculous lol. In the USA things are the way they are because we are very slow to change. There are still a significant number of houses here that would undoubtably catch fire if the max voltage was put over 240 without a complete rewire. So in a lot of ways the electrical system is held back by how many homes have ancient wiring. The solution to this was to increase amperage and not voltage. Our 240v is -120 and +120 for a potential difference of 240v. 120v is dangerous but the probability of it shorting out through some old cloth wiring in a wall cavity is far less than if it was even higher voltage. 3 phase is far better (and more efficient) to run motors on, but like you said it’s virtually unheard of outside of a commercial business (and is billed completely different).
It sounds like the way your grid is setup can put you between a rock and a hard place with a welder. Very few household items would ever pull over 30amps on 240v single phase (electric dryer, stove, water heater) here. I would imagine you guys would end up having big power draw items like those run off 3 phase. So your single phase would be limited to lower amperage breakers, which makes sense. Then you probably either have to make a welder setup for single phase (with maxing the breaker out) or for 3 phase (which would cost a ton of money because the voltages involved require far more expensive shielding and design of the internals). Very few companies make 3phase welders here, and universally they are all big units. My dynasty 210 will run on 3phase 480, or single phase 240, but it’s designed to be a industrial welder.
If a person here has a 50amp breaker on a 200amp service, they can practically weld with any modern welder up to around 275-300amps output. Older transformer machines about 200-230a. To get over 300a output you universally need 3phase power here. Which requires a commercial building to go with it lol.
You're right. But there are old and flumsy wiring in older Houses here too. Some have still breakers bolted to wooden Boards. Common newer wiring is with 1,5mm² or 2,5mm² all 10A or 16 A depending on distance to breakers and intemded use of the circuit. Washingmachine and Dryer will have each a dedicated wire and breakers on 16A and the cooker will commonly run on 3x1 phase up to 20/25A. Houses are connected to the grid with 3 phase 16mm² commonly 35A. You are basically limited to what your wiring and socket is capable for. There are sockets available (CEE) for 230V which have higher ratings, but you would have to change wiring to the breakers, the breaker itself and the plug of the welder. And in particularly in germany this all is only legal when done by a cerified and enlisted electrican😂.
Commented on a previous video that I saw a new welding table from Harbor Freight. Seems to be the case. I use the older table from HF and OK for small stuff. Wondering if you have any thoughts if its worth the upgrade. I like the fact it comes with clamps and definitely more options on that front. Great comparison on welders. Nothing "jenky" about it. I have a much better idea of what I can do on the HF welder at a given voltage and appreciate the data driven thoughts and conclusions tempered by your extensive experience. Have a great and safe holidays!
That table is the same table that northern tool has sold for years as a “klutch” brand table. It is a decent table for the money. I have looked at it and the northern table in person. Here is the good and bad in my opinion: Good: the top is far thicker than most of the cheaper welding tables. That’s great because it will last far longer. The clamp system is very useful and functional. The price (with coupon) makes it very affordable. The fit and finish is pretty good. Bad: the top isn’t flat. I put a straight edge on the northern tool version and it was far from flat. The top is thick but if you weld on stuff directly on the table (think butt welds directly on the top) it will likely warp still. The clamps work but are fairly cheap. My overall opinion is it’s worth it. From a clamping perspective it will be better than the Dewalt I had in a video (and still own). To get something better is probably a minimum of 400$ more, if not more. If I wanted a little fixture table like that I would try to find a old machinists table or something on marketplace and make a stand for it. It won’t be less than probably 3-400$ and a bunch of time though. All things considered I say the table is worth the money.
I agree. I own the ESAB 180 and run it on a Honda EU7000. it runs great. I believe if you're just starting out, the HF will be sufficient for most things as you realize its limitations. I have done code work with the ESAB. Your view on the handgun course with more training and ammo has merit.
No doubt the rogue is a better machine, but 400$+ of steel and rods with the titanium 225 would make a far better welder out of someone than the rogue and 20$ of rods and steel. For someone like yourself that has significant skill, the rogue is the way to go because it allows you to fine tune things the way you like it. Not to say starting out with better equipment is a negative, it’s not. It’s just with a budget only practice and materials will get to a high level of skill, especially with stick where it’s so much arc gap and speed control via hand and less machine settings.
agreed@@makingmistakeswithgreg
I was looking really carefully at two welders in this video a well as the Rogue 180 and came across the Sanrex 160 (you might recall Sanrex as the maker of the excellent Thermal Arc units of the past). While the Sanrex has less peak current (capped at 160), it has duty cycle ratings higher than the Rogue 180 on both 120V and 240V. In fact, in a gee-whiz comparison, the Sanrex seems (on paper) to run in the rarefied air of the Fronius Transpocket. The Sanrex runs 6010s very well, too, in demo videos at least.
Paper specs, 120V:
Fronius 180; 28a max draw, 120a max delivery on a 40% duty cycle; 100a @60%; 90a @100%.
Rogue 180; 25.7a max draw, 110a max delivery on a 25% duty cycle; 70a @60%; 55a @100%.
Sanrex 160; 31.8a max draw, 125a max delivery on a 60% duty cycle; 90a @100%.
Paper specs, 230V:
Fronius 180; 25a draw, 180a max delivery on a 40% duty cycle. 100% duty cycle of 120a
Rogue 180; 26a draw, 180a max delivery on a 25% duty cycle. 100% duty cycle of 90a.
Sanrex 160; 21.3a draw, 160a max delivery on a 40% duty cycle. 100% duty cycle of 100a.
All these units have power factor correction. As a 120V unit, the Sanrex delivers essentially Fronius output and efficiency and can surpass it to the extent you have the breaker for it. On 230V, the Sanrex's lower designed output kicks in but it still has fronius-comparable efficiency and duty cycle.
Now there's more to performance than output. Sanrex being experts on power supplies and electronics, their machine seems to start very well even on 120 and runs 6010 with great stability and starting.
The Sanrex is only $600, the Esab is $900 and the Fronius is $1650.
A the price of the Sanrex (and the DNA of the company and its history as Thermal Arc maker), I think I'm going to give the Sanrex a try. It's only a bit more expensive than the Titanium 225 and seems a fantastic value like the Esab is, although perhaps without the robust support network you get with Esab.
One of the most informative videos that I have seen. Could you run this same test with your Firepower welder? Thanks
I have done it on the fp200 already, but I will be comparing it to the esab rebel soon 😀
Since my shops stick welder has been down I’ve used the titanium 225 as back up and it’s ran great. Root 6010 and hot pass n filler pass 7018 has not failed. The titanium has a hot start on its own. When u end a weld u need to jerk ur hand back to detour spatter. Ran 5/32 8010 and no problem either. The other fabricator uses a miller mig welder. He trips out on me welding 14 n 16g like nothing with it with no melt through. I give mad props to the titanium 225. It can handle ur 8hrs a day welding non stop.
I recommend the 225 all the time because for the money I don’t think a better welder exists out there. I never ran above 180a on it but I did build a few literal tow trucks with the first one I had without any issue (days worth of welding at 155-170a). Literally you can buy it for less than the cost of a welding class, burn 50lbs of rods with it for practice, and one paid welding job for someone else just paid for everything lol. I know a bunch of people that have burning rods with theirs for years, a definite must buy lol.
I’ve got to say I’ve been a sub since he had like 1k following watching him make these videos has just been a lot of fun. What did I do to deserve such a knowledgeable guy teach me all this shit? Been a fan a long time Greg could you please make a video about that esab ruffian? I love esab and I’m stuck between that and a bobcat !
Thanks for being a long term subscriber 😀. The esab ruffian seems to be quite the cool engine drive. I do have a video on generators and welders coming out soon. I will talk about the portable units like the ruffian in it. I can tell you that the ruffian is very similar to the HF Vulcan outlaw 195, the northern tool klutch 6000k, and a few others. The main limitation of them is the generator output power. They have enough power to run grinders, saws, etc, but they have very limited capability of running something like a MiG welder. Realistically for most MiG machines you will only be able to hit 160-175a with a MiG machine. If a person wants to weld with stick mostly and occasionally MiG weld up to 3/16th steel, they should be good. I was faced with buying something like the ruffian or a stand alone generator (predator 9500). I went with the predator so I can run any welder I want. I don’t regret my decision.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg dude thanks for the info yeah I’m just a stick welder the 9500 is like 2300 and for what that thing could do seems like a great deal, my only problem is finding one those things go fast!
Get the Bobcat,VLA
Very interesting comparison. I wanted another/cheaper welder for portability/use in arc gouging (5/32" carbons @180-200a), and I was interested in the Titanium....but ultimately went with the ArcCaptain MiG 200 (turns out it maxes out at 180 on stick mode) because of the additional features. It runs 6010/6011/7018 fine, but I don't have a clamp meter, and the output seems to be 15 or so amps below my Miller...... which is why I'm still thinking about a Titanium 225 for this purpose.
Arc gouging is always going to be hard on a machine due to the voltage it operates at. Generally the best welders for that are ones that are transformer based with simple bridge rectifiers that can be replaced as needed. Air arc runs at 34 to 52v, which at even the low end of 180a is a ton of power. To put it in perspective 180a air arc is equal to around 250amps on a big 7018. The titanium 225 may run a carbon at 180, but it’s duty cycle will be very limited.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg - So, I also have a Lincoln 225AC that mostly sits around..... would I be better off, to just install a bridge rectifier on it (aka, the DC conversion shown on several YT vids)? Or am I misunderstanding-? Thanks!
From a budgetary point, the Titanium would perform very well off your clothes dryer outlet, 30 amps. Many of us have a 30 amp outlet in our garages but not a 50 amp.
It definitely can run on a 30amp without an issue. That’s one of the huge benefits of the modern machines. A older Lincoln tombstone would only hit about 100a on 30a breaker before it would trip lol.
This test really shows that in truth buy a machine that has 240 volt, they are more efficent and have longer duty cycles which really is the most important thing. I run all my welders on 240 volt , 3 are dual voltage one is the HTP is only 240 volt. Greg one thing you could test which does have a baring on current draw is pulse stick. My Fronius 180 has pulse stick and I can weld as much as I can stand without tripping breakers and the fan does not come on untill I run 7024 1/8 at 145 amps and use the whole rod then the fan comes on which means it is very efficent . Another thing is nobody really considers what size of wiring is in their home / garage/shop. Most homes are using 14 or 12 guage wire and the wire size can only conduct so much current till the wire starts to heat up which could be a problem, if it starts a fire somewhere in its path. I have a 40 amp breaker on my 240 in my shop and the corresponding 10 guage wire. Non of my welders has tripped the breaker even at full run, because they are all inverter welders. My old Miller 225 thunderbolt would trip it often. Your right, for most home welders a 120 volt machine will be okay for small rods and light work, but once you get on with welding then a dual voltage is the way to go, and do an upgrade on wiring if needed. By the way Lincoln sells 7016 rods in 10 lb tubes. Canadian Welding Supply has them in 10 lb tubes right now you have to buy 3 tubes, if you pay in US dollars it costs you 30% less plus shipping.
Yes, 240v is far easier on a welder to produce output power. It’s amazing that the esab can even produce the power it can on 120, but it definitely prefers 240 for sure. A lot of people want to be able to weld off a 120v socket and that rogue is about the only practical way to be able to have functional output on 120. Even though it runs the rods, it’s harder to start a arc, and I am sure it will produce more heat.
You are correct, just plugging a welder in and thinking you’re ok is a mistake. Most houses should have a breaker that is sized for the wire (15a for 14ga, 20a for 12ga) but what’s to say someone didn’t screw with that and did things wrong. The only way you will get to the output I did is with a dedicated breaker, which many houses don’t have. It pays to verify what you have and get it upgraded to what you really need if you don’t have it. To me the 120v ability of a dual voltage welder is more for emergency and not for the primary use.
It doesn’t surprise me your thunderbolt tripped breakers. I need to pick one of those up as a deep dive video to demonstrate how they work. They are somewhere around 30-40% efficient, which is why it’s so amazing to hit 90% out of a modern welder. I had a ideal arc 250 and it actually hit 45% efficient, but it had power factor correction capacitors. The drawback of the capacitors was it improved the power draw under load but increased the draw with no load. Idling it drew like 15 amps on 240v lol. I will stick with modern welders I think lol.
I have Chinese Amico 205 tig/stick welder 120/240 volt that works quite well with high frequency start
Good to hear. Some of the more affordable welders are pretty decent 😀.
I have the fronius transpocket 180 and I was warned by fronius not to run it on a generator under 7 kilowatts because of momentarily increased draw from arc force and or hot start settings which can temporarily demand more wattage than the generator can effectively supply which can drop the hertz outside the allowable plus/minus 10 percent. Also tbe 7k generator rating does assume some safety factor to keep the generator closer to 75% of capacity to increase the working life of the genset and the welder.
No doubt to max out the 180 on a generator could require a lot of power. Fronius is probably one of the best companies at designing a welder to function electrically safe and efficiently. Their 180 at 90% efficiency could still draw 6600 watts at start at 180a. So 7k is within the ballpark of starting watts you would really want. Realistically a 6-7k running watt generator would be better and be better for the longevity of everything involved. It’s not cheap running a welder on a generator, many people significantly undersize the generator or use cheap ones with poor output power waves.
Excellent analysis - very good information. You're the first I've seen to take your review past simply technique and testing. Duty Cycle would have been interesting since it has a significant impact on the intended use of a machine. I would like to see a similar analysis with the Everlast product line.
The issue with proving duty cycle is that it’s very hard to do. The output of the titanium 225 will trip the breaker on my generator. I could max the esab out without a issue. The other issue is temperature. The ambient temp in my shop is 25-45 degrees now, and that will significantly increase duty cycle. The esab is rated at 104F. So the validity of the tests will be suspect. Once I get to a new shop (I have been trying to find one to buy) I will do more tests like you mentioned.
As far as everlast, a friend just bought a 161sth so I will be testing that out. In the past everlast welders I have owned have trended towards the 60-65% efficient range. I am a fan of their dedicated welders but I found there all in ones to be poorly designed in comparison to the competition (ie lightening). Definitely will get into few everlast welders 😀
Great comparison Greg. Bigger difference than i expected.
I need to find another clamp on amp meter and test my Everlast 210 and see how it fares.
The everlast 210 is likely in the 60-65% range. I have tested a lot of their welders before I had the channel and that’s the ballpark. I will be testing their 161 sth soon for a video. I do like everlasts welders, mainly their dedicated tig or stick units.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Thanks for the info. I've used it a few times on 120V and don't recall kicking any breakers. It's mainly on a 40A 240V circuit so it's not an issue.
I'll pay attention to the heat generated next time and see if it's noticable.
All you testing is very eye-opening. Thanks Greg.
Thanks for your video.
I disagree with your analogy on using cheaper tools to quality tools.
Quality tools take out the error as much as possible to make your day easier. Example, tripping breakers with the cheap welder.) Granted there’s a learning curve and costs. When your passionate and a perfectionist, your willing to spend on something that matters to you and will give you better results with less effort and less distractions giving you more time to focus on learning and improving your skills.
What kind of generator are you running for the test? I have that same titanium welder and can lay down beautiful beads with it. I got it used for a song and put heavier gauge leads and upgraded the ground clamp and stinger.
I literally got it with the plan of also getting a generator and being mobile (just to help out friends and family.) I haven’t gotten the generator yet. Could you go a little more in-depth on your generator setup, please? Thanks.
I will be testing it more in a video that will be out soon. To help you out now, generator wise it needs a pretty significant generator. The main issue is it’s power factor is low. Because of that you will get breaker trips easily on smaller generators. I am running it on a predator 9500, and that can output around 200amps on the machine. Realistically you will need atleast a 5500 running watt to get 140amps or so out of it.
The output voltage meter sometimes shows over 30V during welding, but the spec is only for 28V. How do the machines behave in case higher voltage is required, say 35V?
So many stick machines out there can’t output much over 28v. That is why many inverters can’t run 6010 rods which require 30+. What happens in their case is the arc will probably start on the rod and then it will just cut out as you’re welding. Some inverters are capable of 35v at lower output levels like 90a (like the esab rogue) so they are capable of running a 6010 and “long arcing” it as well. To make matters worse, is not all welders that clam 6010 capability can run it (cheap ones lie) and of the welders that will run it some run the rod better. For example, the esab rogue 200 runs a 6010 1/8th better than the esab 235 I have, despite both being “capable”.
I’ve always heard, there’s no replacement for hood time, which to me means. Same as in racing cars, no replacement for seat time, you can have all the high end shit and still suck. Like me lol, but I know I been on the grind lately trying to get better.
The trick is to practice enough so that your worst weld is better than your current best. Don’t get me wrong, you will still make bad welds no matter how good you are lol. It just gets harder to screw up the more skill you have. Every time you practice tell yourself to relax, be smooth, and be consistent. 90% of welding is just being smooth and steady. It takes a while to do that, but once you get it your skill will go through the roof.
What generator/size are you using?
I am using harbor freights 9500 predator. It’s 7600 running watts. It’s capable of handling exactly 30amps at 240v output.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Okay. Thanks. I actually bought the Titanium not too long ago, and was trying to figure out if the 6500 would be enough to run it; but it would probably have to be the 9500, or 8750 right? Since the 6500 only has a 23A breaker.
Uh, some 3/32 6011?
I ended up using 3/32 6011 because it was the only 3/32 rod I had that would run below 70 amps. I burned up all the 3/32 6013s I had left.
41:46 "Does this matter?" It's not just about the energy consumption. That 40% PF loss over the ESAB is...heat.
So what does that matter? The ESAB says the duty cycle at 200A is 25%, and the HF claims 20% at 220A. Someone is lying about the duty cycle, and it's not likely that ESAB is under-rating their duty cycle. Crank that HP piece of shit up to 220A and see if you can weld 2 minutes on, eight off, and see how long the caps last...
My experience with the cheap China welders is that they just lie about the duty, and at high load use, they'll fail. I've bought green machines that had obvious shit wrong with them right out of the box where they wouldn't work...but they had a QC sticker on them stating they were tested...lies. At least green has the customer service and will get you square.
DIY, do what you want, but for professional use (me), you pay the money. FWIW, yellow is just a different green.
Soon I will be doing a 1 year update on the esab, it has been holding up nicely. Its duty cycle is no question what it’s rated at. I ran it for probably 70% duty cycle at 140a with tig on 120v and it didn’t miss a beat. On 240 it has handled running over 180a for a long time doing hard face rods. Part of it is arc gap. I run everything with as tight of an arc gap as I can and this will help duty cycle. The harbor freight machine would likely hit its rated duty cycle, I can’t test it because it’s needs a 40a breaker to do it. Harbor freight is no joke janky, but at the same time they do legitly generally meet claims. That’s something almost everything of Amazon doesn’t do lol. I just tested an arc captain flux core welder and it’s literally unusable because it loads the input line to 33+ amps just to weld 1/8th in material lol.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg I wasn't taking a dig at the ESAB machine. They're solid. Just that they're kind of the same as Green. QC is lacking on "Green." But once they're running, they're great. I own three Green machines in addition to my JDM stuff.
Even Blue blows cap boards, and when they do it's expensive... Way more expensive than Yellow or Green. I run Panasonic, Daihen, etc. They never break, but they're not cheap by a long shot.
What about the internal heat that’s generated buy the seriously inefficient Titanium? That’s coming close to the efficiency of old transformer units. I would imagine that there would be a real difference in lifetime. But for the average home shop, likely there’s not too much difference as long as 240 is available. If it’s just 120, then the Rogue is much better. I’d rather the power be higher than rated than lower as most cheap welders are that I’ve tested. Some of those cheap models say 200 amps at 240, but deliver 135.
So I am going to do a deep dive in the electrical efficiency of the machine in the 3rd part of the video (I shot part 2 and that will be out today). There is a lot going on as to why the 225 is so inefficient. I spent a bunch of money and about 4 hours testing all aspects of the welders to get a idea of what’s going on. Needless to say the rabbit hole went far deeper than I expected lol.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg yes, it always does. I’ll do two tests, then get confused as to the results, then do some more, and more after that. I’m happy I never started a channel, then I’d have to explain everything. That sucks. But you know that. Great work. Don’t let it twist your mind.
You miss something in your math. Power in AC is not just Amp x Volt, you have to account the powr factor (cosine phy) so the watts you computed in AC are not real. The different machines may have different power factors. So your all results are twisted.
power factor is important in AC, you can see a huge current for little power (at same voltage) or less current for more power, depens ... in DC powr = A x V. in AC, power (Watts) is A x V x Pf. (power factor may vary from 0 to 1)
In conclusion, I'm not convinced of the efficiency you computed. Instead to use an Ammeter you should use a real Power meter so as compare watts with watts and not watts with Volt Ampere.(VA)
You're right, but since all the measurements are done without the (assuable 0.9) cosphi, and this is not to certify a welder for standards, this comparison is absolutely sufficient for me.
I agree with what you’re saying but there is impracticality with testing this. First is I can’t use the information from the manufactures regarding PF because many of them lie. To test it myself would require both a lot of time and a decent expense for equipment, which isn’t practical. It will play a role, but to what extent? A vast majority of higher end welders claim .99 Pf at max output. The harbor freight claims .98 in the manual (which is likely wrong) and the esab claims .99. Even if the harbor freight welder was way less, it still would be nowhere near the efficiency of the esab machine.
Based on actual generator loading the harbor freight can’t output 180 amps on the 30 amp breaker, the esab can. I ended up getting sick so I couldn’t do further testing but I believe the most the HF could could output on a 30a breaker is around 150-160a so the actual output power required is inline with the calculations I did in the video.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg I totally agree with what you said here. You can't rely on manufacturers datas. You won't need a very expensive equipment.. no need to measure the cosphy, just use a standard usual Wattmeter. some mini units are very accurate in these measures. I have one installed in my house that gives V, A, W, Pf, Hz and the total of energy (resettable) in one screen.( Of course, I compared these values with serious meters and the accuracy is quite good.) But out of this, good job, good comparison . ..
All these video on welders are useless. Cheap welders always work in the beginning. Show me after 500 hours on both.
Sorry you feel that way. I used one of those titanium 225s for atleast 300 hours without issue in the past (it was stolen so I no longer have it). Presumably it’s still working. For the most part the titanium 225 has proven to be very reliable. It’s simply not practical to talk about reliability in a comparison like this. Why? Because anyone can get a dud. Harbor freight has sold a million of them, if it was known to fail or be garbage it would be well known by now.
Just like I have a 7k miller dynasty 210 that didn’t work out of the box, required servicing after a update bricked it, and now requires a rotary encoder because it doesn’t adjust amperage properly, all within 14months. The titanium 225 stick welder has more hours on it than the dynasty, does that mean it’s better? Yes and no. Surely I could put welders to the test until they failed and prove which ones are more durable, but not only is that a waste of money, but not a whole lot of useful info would be found. In the case of this video the esab should outlast the harbor freight, and it should work better. You could buy 3 of the harbor freights for the cost of the esab so it should offer something for the money.
If durability is of a concern, a ideal arc 250 or dual arc 250 should be what someone gets. They are known to last 50+ years without issue. The problem is they aren’t portable (300+ pounds) they are the size of a small fridge, they draw stupid amounts of power, and they don’t weld as good as many modern machines.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg the same applies to positive review, the UA-cam aggregates the data. Anyone can get lucky. China has about 5 qualities of parts for anything that is made. One capacitor from chingu vs one from wayang may differ wildly. Lacquer around copper may be inferior on one causing a torrid to fail prematurely. What you said was great info. I had three plasma cutters, and one tig welder just quit. At least you can talk with miller and get it fixed. Not so with most Chinese. That said, miller’s welders are made in china. But they are made to spec. China can make good stuff if they want to. It just costs about the same as good stuff everywhere.there is a bigger problem. Once a Chinese manufacturer start producing there is no way to control them letting their brother in law have the same design. They produce it with inferior components and the UScompany is not the wiser. It takes years for the clandestine activity to be caught and in the mean time image and quality cost have skyrocketed. I know of what I speak.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg what you said is true except my bricked Chinese welders are sitting on the floor with no way to get parts or repair. At least you can call miller for help. It’s a sad commentary on us manufacturing. The issues is not uncommon. The Egyptian used cheap labor to build the pyramids, Indians used Pakistans as cheap labor. We used Italians and polish to build big cities in the USA. Now, china is so big they use cheap rural labors to build stuff in their factories. I know from experience there are 3-5 versions of the same products in china. One is really good, almost as good as the original USA product. Miller tests and picks a component that is good enough to last past their warranty program. And example would be the lacquer that covers coils in a coil. One may be .3 mill and one maybe .1 mill. It might also be heat stabilized. Over time one may short out and reduce the effective length of the coil. That I turn causes more heating and leads to premature failure. This is why I said they may last for a while, but often fail in time.
@@CliffordStaley I was totally lost until you took it to Egypt and started trying to prove your point talking about the cheap labor making the pyramids 😀 ya brought me right back then
Everlast 210stl for 599 same exact features as the esab rogue the titanium is junk had it feels like 10 lbs
No power factor correction on the Everlast. Northern tool has the Klutch 201dv which is probably the cheapest thing you will find with power factor correction but I won't be doing business with northern tool with the way they treated Greg and other people who have ordered from them recently. I hope you don't either.
The everlast 210 is a great option for people. It’s no more efficient than the titanium 225 though. It gives the adjustability of the rogue with the affordability of the titanium. It’s priced between the two, which makes sense. Personally I rather buy a used rogue 180 over the everlast 210 for the same money. Having used both machines it’s better where it counts, and it is far more efficient. I still stand buy the titanium 225, I built 2 tow trucks and knocked out probably 30 jobs with one, never had a issue. There is no better welder for the same price in my opinion. Anything better will cost more.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg I 100% agree with you, but I'm trying to find a portable stick welder I can use on a generator that can only output 25 amps on 240v. I'm very tempted by the Titanium 225; I want to give learning stick welding a try, but if I need to buy a bigger generator to be able to run the Titanium 225, when for a few hundred more an Esab 180i Pro looks like will run just fine on the old generator. I just need to make a power pigtail for it to adapt a Nema 6-50R receptacle to the 250v 30amp twist lock recectacle on the generator, and flip the switch from 120V to 120/240 and be good to go. I'm thinking with what generators cost these days, there's no way I can buy a bigger generator plus a Titanium 225 versus just the Esab. A 7600 watt generator is not cheap, and there's no used ones around, any used ones that were working got snatched up last year, and the year with the huge ice storms in Texas, good generators turned into Unicorns overnight.