Cheap HF vs expensive Esab welder comparison: Internal construction deep dive
Вставка
- Опубліковано 11 лип 2024
- In this episode we see what 600+ american pesos gets you for internal welder construction.
Reading welder data plates video: • Reading welder data pl...
0:00:00 Intro
0:02:42 The titanium 225
0:08:49 Transformers
0:16:45 Too big of a case?
0:28:24 Data plate
0:32:48 Esab rogue
0:045:09 Toroidal transformer
0:57:33 Data plate
1:00:13 Conclusion
I think an important difference between these two machines is the pfc. Where i live there is no penalty for not having pfc on home power. You don't get charged for the apparent power where as in an industrial situation it can become a lot more expensive to run. Also the better machine with the pfc doesn't produce as much electrical noise to interfere with electronics. That is except for the points arcing. The ferrite and are tuned to different frequencies to be effective. Same as all the inductors hence more than one may be needed.
The esab having an industrial contactor as you said is so much better than the crappie switch not just for how much more current it can handle but for how many times it can be cycled.
I appreciate you candid views on general use scenarios. Basically horses for courses. If your well informed about the product, you make your choice.
It is amazing what features you can get for relatively little money these days compared to back in the day. But having a lot of features in a poor quality machine means more to go wrong in a short space of time.
Thanks Greg for keeping it real.
Thanks for the kind comment and thoughts. You are completely correct on the power factor correction. Meters where I am at don’t penalize for poor PF. The downside to poor PF for me is needing bigger power wire, lower output on 120v, and issues with breakers tripping. I actually ended up buying a meter that can calculate power factor, and I found out (not surprisingly) the harbor freights is poor, .56 at low loads and much better at .80+ at higher. The esab has a calculated PF of .99 to 1.0 at the amperages I ran at. I can get much more output from the esab without nuisance breaker trips. It also doesn’t cause as much voltage drop on the input either. Honestly I wish companies explained the benefits more to PFC because in certain situations it’s very beneficial.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Years ago active power factor correction was a very expensive option for say a vfd. Now days totem pole pfc is set to become the norm for most things that require more than 1Kw rectified. They're compact, ultra efficient, and run cool. Solve a whole bunch of problems.
I recently bought a new mig welder. Mostly for 2-3mm wall thick tube etc. If there had been a commercial option for a welder to run from say a 48v battery bank i would have been keen. I can see that being a great way to go. In absence I bought a 185 amp machine without pfc- I'll change when a DC source mig comes to market.
Here in New Zealand we only have 240v 50hz domestic power. So 185a for me is easy on a 10a plug.
To be honest mig welding mild steel, similar thickness has been fairly straightforward. The machine only really needs the voltage set. It's a strata 185c. I thought it was cheap for a known brand name (here) with a 3yr warranty and good local distributor.
Had a reasonable run with a dirt cheap Chinese 120a arc. Worked fine. The mig makes me look better though.
And then there's tig. Holly crap. Haven't done anything that can be called ok. Had the opportunity to buy a 3 phase machin with a bottle cheap so I did. It is called a " Blue weld. Best 242" Italian made, ac/dc beautiful. Had horrible results. Bought new tips (chinese), found a gas leak. Fixed it. Full of hope. But still crap. I'm sure it's me but wish I knew someone here who I could get to weld with it to rule out the machine or point out something obvious. Anyway have put it down and resigning to having to do a course.
The reality is the mig does what I really need well. And while I'd like to do aluminum (a friend has an aluminum yacht) it's a lot learning.
I wonder if laser welding is easier than tig?
Watching videos like your helped me to choose my mig. The old adage, usually applicable to computers, buy what you need now, was pertinent. I must admit I did think arc, and flux core were inferior choices, but you've certainly changed my views on that.
So laser welding will be the future of welding in general. It functions like tig (heat source and filler) but is far easier than tig. The limitations with laser are primarily around cost and difficulty to get substantial enough lasers. With a bigger Mig welder you can put single pass welds that are massive on 3/8th+ steel. Laser can’t deposit that much metal at this point. It will likely slowly take over thin material from Tig, but it’s unlikely to take over from mig any time soon.
As far as tig is concerned, it has a very steep learning curve. It requires good hand eye coordination and extreme consistency. The thing is, once you get past the initial learning curve it becomes easy. Don’t get me wrong, it still requires the most consistency of any welding process, but it’s not that bad.
Good afternoon Greg. What I learned today is that I wouldn't sell my old A.C. Lincoln Tombstone welder for 10 times what I paid for it 40 years ago. Lol. Seeing the inside of these new machines scares the hell out of me. I guess that I'm just old but the less complicated something is the better I like it. That being said I found this video quite fascinating. Most people have no idea what actually makes something that small do such big things. All of your videos are educational, interesting, and entertaining. God bless and have a wonderful day. 👍👍🙂
You will like the video out tomorrow where I open up a old big 250amp transformer machine and fix it up. Then I have a video actually using it, with demonstrating how it functions. Finally in a bit over a week a video will be released where I compare it to modern welders in a full test. Without a doubt the older transformer machines are unbelievably reliable. Many also weld extremely well. 😀
@@makingmistakeswithgreg After watching this video I checked the prices on a AC/DC tombstone and they're up over $900. My old AC machine is over $500. I'm talking new machines but I paid $125 for mine back in the early 80's. God bless Greg and I'll be looking forward to these videos.
I agree with you. Those old transformer machines will probably even work after an EMP strike or big power surge whereas the electronic inverter models probably won't. I don't have any of the old transformer machines, only inverter machines. But I will say the inverter machines generally have a nice arc and are easy to carry. They have their place and advantages but are more expendable.
Good Day Greg. I never, ever cease to learn something of value from your vids and this was an excellent deep dive and really appreciated the dual reflection across the two machines. And as much as I hate to move my Tombstone around though permanently attached to a dolly, I just appreciate its raw, brutal power once I flip that switch and know it'll always be my trusty backup...
I wanted to share however something pertaining to the coating you mentioned a few times on the circuit boards. You mentioned it was a type of 'clear silicone' treatment. My background throughout military service and now Contracting, I can't get into the trade secrets or deep particulars, but you are 'correct' that it is a sealant per se, but it's not, 'uncommon' It's been around for decades and has become an even better product through differing copyrights compositions of the actual liquidic compound that it starts out as. I say it's not uncommon because in MOST manufacturing of circuit boards that are to be in austere or harsh 'elemental' environments such as these outdoor welders, circuit boards in military grade aircraft and other such devices and environments, these 'sealing' compounds have dramatically reduced the error/fail rate of these circuit boards with the very same point you raised; to eliminate outside interference from moisture or ionized and electrically charged dust, etc.. Dually, they provide a way to test these board under another liquidic environment to inspect for heat displacement 'failure' identification. So, point is, it's not uncommon per se but 'higher' end manufacturing (manufactures) utilizes these measures to elongate the life expectancy on said products. This thus costs the manufacture up front but should pass onto the customer (longevity wise) because they are better protected. This is also a cost derivative measurement in that what has been invested at the manufacturing level, should be protected and ultimately shouldn't be sent back to the manufacture - thus the higher price. So that little amount of sealant really tells you and your audience that the manufacture WANTS this product to last as long as possible and have gone an extra mile to boast it's environmental protections as best as they can provide with the particular product. It also shows that you sometimes, 'get more for what you pay for'. Hope that tidbit helps, and feel free to share that out in commentary if you ever have a review that divulges into this area. Cheer and thanks for another outstanding video.
Transformer machines are great to have around. You will like the video (out soon) where I refurb a big 250+ amp stick welder. I bought it without being able to test it, cleaned it up, fixed some things, and it’s up and working now. It’s 40 years old and still works fine. Nothing wrong with a simple welder like that 😀.
Very interesting information on the coatings. I know I have opened up a number of welders and not seen coatings like that. I am not even sure if my esab rebel 235 has that, I will have to find out next time I look in it. The fact esab spent a little bit more money to do something to help longevity is good in my book, and kind of surprising. I take good care of my machines but the portable ones definitely get used out doors and in the worst conditions, so extra effort spent to help longevity is a great thing.
I believe the part you were wondering the name of in the ESAB is a ferrite choke.
Yes 😀. My brain wasn’t computing 😅
You are killing it with this content, Mr. G.
Thanks, it gives me motivation to pull stuff apart and see how things are made. Its a lot of fun, and it’s interesting to see differences in thought processes on how companies make products. It’s pretty amazing what can be crammed in a little box lol.
Very thorough and well presented Greg, as always.
I watched the whole Titanium 225 part since that’s my welder and take the power switch failure probability comments to heart. I’ll look into finding a suitable replacement. I fool around with electronic gadgets and have been known to commit carpentry and break old plumbing fixtures without a license, so replacing that switch might just happen. I will add that everything electrical requires a fierce adherence to studied safety measures before and during any disassembly and repair, so I advise the greatest respect always.
The 225 does have a fan cycle that continues after shut down and now I know another possible reason for that beyond cooling; draining the capacitors. I love that idea but won’t assume it’s the case even if the manufacturer says it’s so.
I know you’re right in your recent suggestion regarding beginner practice and the miles of welds required to expect proficiency, so I’m laying bead as often as I can. When I see videos of guys zipping out welds using MIG or TIG or flux core (don’t know which), it looks a lot easier than stick welding, that’s for sure. Myself, being in lifelong servitude to doing everything the hard way, I don’t see any choice but to learn stick first.
Without a doubt in the long run the switch will be a issue. It will see higher loadings than it’s rated for in amperage, and the switches they buy simply aren’t generally that good. I am sure there are options for that size switch that are rated for more power.
From a skill perspective I will say this. The interesting thing with stick is that if you master the simplest thing (a straight, perfectly consistent bead on plate), everything else becomes easier. You can take that knowledge and master Mig & flux core fast as well. It is difficult to master the simple things in welding, but the more you focus on those the more “doable” hard things like vertical and overhead welding become. It’s not fun doing a lot of beads on plate but it’s definitely what makes a massive difference in skill.
Here's my take on the relay. Ive noticed it activates at the end of the 6010 band on the dial. Without checking with a meter I think it sets the open circuit voltage higher to make 6010 more stable. If you turn it past the band, 6010 is hard to run. Letting the open circuit voltage drop at higher settings of course brings Ohms Law into play for higher current.
Now I need to measure what I have experienced!
Interesting observation. With a old transformer machine many of the bigger ones have two transformers and two separate “gears” that switches between them. They did it to get the proper voltage to amp curve at lower and higher amperage. That’s the problem with transformers (which all welders have) is you are limited to a fixed winding ratio. Having multiple transformers is one way to fix that, and the esab may have that (difficult to see for sure). Lincoln used a transformer with a variable “shunt” that increases/decreases the transfer of energy between the primary and secondary of the transformer, but even that is less than ideal. I wonder if the harbor freight is manipulating voltage fed into the transformer, between 120 and 240 (even on 240). That could explain what’s going on.
That heavy silicone looking goo is there for several reasons, mostly it’s for mechanical support for larger components or some that vibrate for various reasons. Stabilizing these components mechanically helps prevent cyclic fatigue cracking in the solder joints. This can cause a high resistance joint to form (due to microscopic cracking), and is sometimes referred to as a “Cold Solder Joint”. Whatever you call it, it can limit proper current flow, cause high resistance voltage drops etc. These joints can start off good, but can degrade over time, or just outright promptly fail.
It’s there for many reasons, and it does make performing diagnostics much more difficult, but given well designed systems are usually modular this making it very easy to just replace individual boards rather than paying somebody to diagnose and repair, you just pay a basic tech to replace a board in a matter of minutes and send it back.
A note about modern soldering methods, it is very rarely done by hand, as compared to modern mass soldering process that produce adequate joints electrically, but weaker structurally, and are more prone to cracking especially where heavier components (or vibration) are concerned.
The other function is some times as a thermal heat sink. It’s not as good as thermal paste, but better than Air.
Corrosion or preventing contamination from debris is another possibility as well as preventing “Tin Whiskers”. In a nutshell, certain solders can grow microscopic whiskers that eventually reach another whisker or component and cause small short circuits.
That has been an issue for as long as there has been solder.
You sure you aren't thinking of the silicone securing components on the component side of boards, not the back? Also, I think a cold solder joint comes from lack of heat when soldering, not mechanical failure. My guess is that the silicone or whatever on the back of the cheaper welders main board is because the high voltage in the lower areas is prone to arcing, and the upper is to keep you from accidently touching the capacitor leads.
@@AFILalpha Thank you for your comments and feedback, however, I’m trying to not be too technical, there is no value or point to being overly precise in this comment section. You are correct in that a cold solder joint typically occurs with inadequate heat, fusion or lack of bonding i.e. not enough flux etc. There are many causes of bad solder joints, if you really want to get technical about it. Take it as you wish, but the bottom line for the majority of his readers, is the solder joint no longer performs (conducts electricity) as it was designed to. The goo/paste or whatever it is, is made of various different compounds, for different purposes, whether purely mechanical, thermal conduction/insulation or electrical. I am speaking in general terms, and I have no idea what the designers were intending, nor do I know what the manufacture’s processes are, and I’m pretty sure only a handful of people in the industry know exactly what or why they built it the way they did.
Clearly there is a huge difference between the Titan and the ESAB, I was simply trying to help people understand why they apply so much of that stuff on various components.
@@michaelwhiting878 Thanks for such an articulate reply. I get where you were coming from, and I only corrected so people wouldn't absorb the wrong term. Sorry if it came across differently. To me, what you said sounded as if through hole components with a proper solder joint would fracture and loosen with movement like a nail in drywall, as opposed to breaking at the leg. I'm sure you know that's not how it works. I also found the idea novel that the "stuff" on the backside of the Titan mainboard might be there to prevent arcing, and wanted to share that thought. The things I work on carry quite a bit less current.
Thanks for the comment (and I will respond to your email tomorrow, my job change/Health issue has resulted in significant issues with time).
I have heard some people liking the modular components vs single integrated board. I know fronius seems to use one board with everything on it and esab uses separate. I know the individual boards have to be cheaper to buy to replace if they fail, but it’s far easier to access components on fronius (and some miller/Lincoln) designs. Which would you rather have?
@@makingmistakeswithgreg No doubt, I would take Modular’s construction any day! On occasion, I have had a replacement module sent to me by the manufacture’s service center, rather than sending the whole unit back to them. In the case of my Plasma Cutter, the part was sent from China. It took a couple weeks to get to me, but I would rather that, than boxed it up and shipped across country to an authorized service center. I feel like it’s more likely to suffer damage during shipping. On that note, if you’ve ever had a service call, you know that just coming out to diagnose your issue is very expensive, and then they have to order the part, and return to finish the repair - been there, done that, and I’d rather do it myself self, assuming I can get parts. You would be surprised how available parts are for just about anything, and not necessarily from the manufacture either.
Modular designs are more complex in design, and construction e.g. running wires from one module to another. So to me, that translates to more thought went into the design. Generally speaking, Single boards are more streamlined, and require less space, and usually cheaper to manufacture, so there are advantages to that layout.
You’ve mentioned hardware “Revision numbers” several times, and you know periodically there are improvements, based on past experience, so with a single board, you’ve got to replace the whole board, rather than a smaller module board.
I do prefer the R&R “Remove and Replace” aka Plug and Play way of maintenance myself. Interestingly, the military has shifted their maintenance philosophy away from old school diagnose and repair sub components, now they train their people to follow basic troubleshooting procedures to find the bad board, and just Remove and Replace it with a new module. It reduces training costs and time, and is much faster and more reliable which is important to maintain your state of readiness.
I enjoyed your video Greg. I found that having the next level stick welder like the Miller Maxstar 160 or the Fronius 180 , are really so much better that you have to experience them. It is the smooth operation and ease of operation and pulse like the Fronius that makes the difference in the end. Quality is quality, once you have got the entry level welders and found their limitations, save your money and step up 2 or 3 steps and get something that actually makes you do better work rather than struggle with sub standard tools. Sometimes you have sit on your hands and save and then buy equipment any equipment which will last you and not break down at the worst possoible moment. I learned that lesson many years ago. When you are at the point you can tell the difference you will know what quality tools mean. In my situation my Fronius is what I call a little jewel , never lets me down , runs any rod , pulse or no pulse and makes no noise doing it until pushed , like 2 , 1/8 7024 at 145 amps, then she runs the fan for a minute then shuts down and away we go again. This is not the only welder I have which does stick, both are multi process welders and they are good, but not quite then same. looking forward to the next video.
No doubt when a person has skill, the finer details of a high end machine really make a difference. Spec sheets are one thing, but when you sit down and actually use a machine that tells you so much more. A higher end welder makes it easier to make quality welds. They are smoother with welding, consume less power, and have more adjustability. I definitely prefer higher end machines for sure.
This comment encourages me and has planted a seed going forward in this new pursuit of joining metals and added command of materials. Thank you.
… Yeah at under $300 a pop I’ll just buy another one when my 225 turns into a toaster: but I don’t think that will happen for some time, potentially ever.
You simply don’t understand what HF has done. Why would I bother? I mean, sure me personally yes, I will buy a high end welder because I’ve discovered my aptitude; however for just your home welder… this is it.
Thank you so much for this informative video
You’re welcome. It was fun making it, and I definitely learned a lot. 😀
Degausser? Great vid Greg. Thanks!!!
Those ferrite on wires are called ferrite chokes. Aka a ferrite bead, ring or block.
Thanks, I couldn’t for the life of me remember the name 😅
Thanks for sharing the internals of these two welding machines, this is always an interesting part of review and for people with some background in electronics design, myself included, just looking at how these machines are built and with what components tells a lot. A couple of days ago I received a new 220A rated MMA welder and one of the reasons to get it was that I couldn't find any good reviews with open case images or repair videos or discussions etc. for that particular model, so I decided to do this by myself :) I already have a professional inverter type 1(3)-phase 250A welder (~450USD) but this machine is too heavy to carry it around (15kg+cables) so I wanted a lighter welder provided that it would have all three settings of "welding current", "arc force", and "hot start" on physical knobs and some kind of display and well just that it would be a decent welder in general. All I can say for now is that the build quality is turned out to be good, but up to the price of 1/4th of that professional welder, some schematic decisions are good, some are less than what I wished for, the upcoming tests will show what this machine is capable of. The fun part of the story is that it was a plain gamble on a New Year sale, I only prayed that it wouldn't be a piece of shit and complete scam like 300~400A rated "Mailtank" inverters (google a repair video of this on YT, you will have a good time laughing your * off), these toys come at a warping 20-30USD and they are being sold in numbers in south-east asia. :)
There are definitely some surprises on the “better than expected scale” with welders. I don’t know what the true cost is to make a typical modern welder, since I don’t buy components for them. However having looked on alibaba (and other import sites), I have seen a lot of welders for pretty cheap, and dirt cheap if you buy a bunch of them at once. The hard part is knowing if what you’re buying is even worth it. I personally am surprised anytime I find a cheap welder that actually works decent, the best example is the harbor freight titanium 125 (basically a 125a flux core only welder). For what it is (sub 170$ welder) it’s almost too good and useful. Prior to that unit everyone bought the dirt cheap flux core welders that are absolutely terrible and barely weld. I see decent welders that are affordable as a great thing because it gives the average person a lot of capability without breaking the bank.
Awesome stuff, I've fixed a few welders at work or for friends usually a cap or something else and it's not a bad repair. I will say that welder manufacturers do keep schematics and often in the manual.
Awesome on helping fix stuff 😀. It’s a great feeling to find a bad part, fix it, and get something running again. I have a video out soon where I dive into a old transformer machine and get it running, and another video comparing that to a modern welder. It’s amazing how much smaller and more efficient welders have become, but also far more complex. I am not to sure how repairable a lot of new machines are if there are no obvious signs of failed components lol.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg The newer IGBT welders are fixable you gotta just really pay attention if you are swapping out IGBT's because more commonly on the cheaper welders you will find that the part varies in model number and or specs (by a bit), basically the manufacturer is grabbing the cheapest part that week or month. I always replace with quality parts from digikey or mouser myself. What I have seen is that capacitors tend to be the issue on a lot of welders and one of the main things that go down. I apologize for the late reply it's been interesting times. I worked on a Titanium 225 maybe it was a Titanium 140 I want to say that was used on a generator and the IGBTs burned out I think that was because of dirty power. IGBTs are something like a 2 dollar part maybe 4 so fixing isn't cost prohibitive. I should say that I generally avoid the high voltage pixie wrangling but these IGBT welders are not impossible to work on although I am more comfortable at something less than 24v (usually I keep it 5v - 19v/24v (laptops) such as consumer electronics.
Got my old Tombstone AC/DC and will never sell it. It's the old timer that weights a ton with 100% copper wire. Later Lincoln started using aluminum that didn't work out. Not heavy enough gauge of wire. They were really light in comparison to the original. Then they started using heavier aluminum wire which is what the new ones are. If you run into things with copper clad aluminum wire consider this: copper clad wire has a reduction of 40% in current carrying capacity for the same gauge.
No doubt a ton of companies switched to CCA or just straight aluminum wire for everything from engine drives to plug in welders. Those tombstones you talk about definitely have a bad reputation. From what I heard not only did the aluminum have issues with power handling, they drifted far more from the setpoints over the copper ones. Since they are just a transformer with different taps on the secondary winding to produce different outputs, there was minimal amperage control. As the wires heated up the resistance would increase, which would in turn lower the output amperage at a particular amp setting. You might start at 90a but you wouldn’t be there after 15/20min of solid welding. Putting it one tap up might give you too much amperage. Definitely pays to have the all copper one for sure. That’s also why certain generator welders from the 50s/60s are so desirable.
Lots of good info - and lots that I'm pretty sure passed right over my head. Rather have more info than the dumb dumb version. The wire coil things are RF Chokes, I believe. Keeps radio noise (or your microwave) from messing with the voltage. Another trivia point - Adam Savage (of the Myth Busters fame) drinks the same ginger beer. So mondo style point for beverage choice - lol.
Thanks for the kind words 😀. I have been a fan of myth busters forever and watched a bunch of Adam’s content, I never noticed that he drinks the same ginger beer lol.
Ha 60 year old machines!!! I love my 60 year old machine! It may be as big as a fridge and as mobile as a house but for 400 bucks I got 500 amps to Tig stick or spot weld with. (I also have an extremely smooth 20 amps to weld 1/16 rods with, maybe lower. It'll stick weld 20ga sheet!)
You will like the video that will be out shortly where I clean up and fix some issues with a old transformer machine 😀. It’s mini fridge size and as simple/old school as you can get.
OK, Ok, Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa already! I bought my machine before I found your channel all right already?? Lolol Seriously though, can you do a series or just your thoughts on the "multi-function" home gamer type welders. You know, I want it to stick weld, gasless flux core, MIG, and even a little lift Tig (not expecting too much there as that seems to be a pretty specialized process/setup). Aluminum seems to be a whole nother can of worms but most I've seen can do it with a spool gun. It would need to have the 110/220v versatility as I've found when I go over a buddy's house to fix something all they have is 110v. You might have done this already so my apologies if I missed it. This video was another great/informative one --thanks for sharing!
I have sort of did a video like that but not really 😀. I actually shot a video regarding this today, it will be out next week. I covered a ton of machines in it and talked about good/bad aspects of most of the welders. The interesting thing is most multi purpose welders have poor stick capabilities and decent tig. Virtually all of them are good MiG welders. The best unit really comes down to what a person wants. For what you’re talking about I believe the esab rebel series is the best option. It offers the best stick performance you can get, they are all a excellent MiG machines, and due to power factor correction they can run on lower voltage at much higher outputs. Most cheaper all in ones have limited output on 120vs240.
Without a schematic I might be able to assume the power input transformer may have a mult-tap winding on the secondary output side. The relay could possibly disconnect one of secondary windings end and reconnect a center tap leg of the winding to half the output voltage for the lower welding amperage range? Also you mention that the power switch on the ac power input side seems a bit under rated, you do realize if the input current is say 30 at 240V that would equal approx 8X the current or 240A output on the secondary. For example, If voltage input is stepped down by say 50 percent by the secondary, the current capacity will be double and now half the voltage stepped down. If in doubt on your switch, use a clamp amp meter and measure around the white switch wire, check both sides since you have a double pole switch. Also the current could be split “or shared” through each side of the power switch, for that switch is 30A @250V on each side of the switch. But yes, rocker switches do have a lifespan, just ask anyone that owns a coffee maker.
I put the ra 50 amp switches in mine even my titanium Mig and it's the 1:40 and it only works on 120 volts but it's got it because I replaced them I started my little side business with a RX7 130 amp Chicago Electric blue case Harbor Freight welder and it was a 240-volt input it was a good machine and I welded some cutting edges on bulldozers with that may I pushed it too hard but it lasted me 7 years before it decided to die and I get back to my point is that you are correct they use crappy switches so I think everyone should follow your advice and just change the switch cheap insurance especially if you didn't buy the extended warranty but if you bought the extended warranty just take it back they'll give you another machine
7 years is a solid run no doubt. Glad to hear you swapped the switches. I don’t know why but I swear harbor freight uses the same bad switch on everything lol. That same switch is on my generator, winch controller, sand blast cabinet, etc, and everyone barely works after a while lol.
Talking about capacitors shocking you even unplugged, I turn on the unit after it's unplugged, and have had different ones start up for a split second. I don't know that it'll discharge everything, but it definitely makes a few of them safer.
Definitely smart to take any precautions 👍
That is a home gamer welder compared to a pro welder, no apples to apples. Lets see a Commander™ Stick Industrial
Welder 225A AC / 150A DC, 230V Input inside.
I don’t believe they make that machine anymore. In a couple days I have a video coming out with refurbishing a 250+ amp transformer machine though. Then about a week after that video I have another that will be out where I compare that old school transformer machine to modern welders. 😀
On our farm growing up my Dad built all kinds of equipment for our farm and a lot of others with the old tombstone . It is still in the shop.
Those old tombstones last forever and definitely can make stuff happen. Half of americas older farm equipment has probably been repaired by a Tombstone lol.
A lot of products are what's called potted. Silicone or something else is used to hide or cover components and the circuit design to keep people from reverse engineering it or fixing it.
Very interesting comparison. I have a 1994 Oerlikon 140Amp DC only inverter and its been very reliable over the last five year I have owned it and it was made in the Slovakia. I also have a Thermal Arc 202Amp AC/DC inverter that is of oriental origin. It is very noisey, the fan runs all the time and is a bit annoying after a while. One thing that I cannot understand with modern welders, is the On/Off switch being on the rear closure plate.
In you're video, two things I noticed, the Dinse sockets on the ESAB are larger so much better built. Also, on the Esab, I noticed a date on a board. At 44.40, you can clearly see 20.09.28 so are you a time traveller or is that a warranty/use by/dispose by date?
I think the power switch on the back has to do with ease of construction due to power wires entering on the backside. I definitely like power switches on the front far more no doubt. The only small welder I have used with the power switch on the front is the miller 161, which was such a nice feature.
Interesting observation on the boards numbers. I am not sure how they label those, the only thing I can think of is they somehow go by “2020-09 month-28th day. I am sure some of the components could be that old. The welder itself is the first revision, it loads and displays 1.1 for a version number. Some parts will likely be of different manufacturing date. From a reliability standpoint I have had great luck with esab, I have owned a lot of their machines and never had a issue with them. Some might say they are my favorite welder company (since I currently own 3 machines made by them) but I actually prefer miller more. It’s just that miller is so expensive it’s hard to justify the cost, especially because they often have poor stick welding performance in their all in one machines.
I know this is isn't a super recent video and I'm not sure if this has been answered yet, but at 42:25, that component is called a ferritic choke. Also, at 44:35 that coating over the PCB is called conformal coating.
Thanks for the tips 👍👍. The details will help better understand what the components are 😀. Since the video I haven’t seen the coating on other welder components. Granted I have looked at mostly cheap welders 😅.
Anytime, happy to be able to contribute! If I had to guess, it's probably universally present on boards from blue, red, and yellow welders but I would be surprised on a more budget minded version. It is however, quite frequently applied to cordless tool brushless driver boards.
@ 15:00 or so - when you speak of repairing these, you need to make sure to not mess up the circuit boards!
@ 20:00 or so - my HF 4 x 6 bandsaw had a switch that looks like that one, and when the saw went down, I replaced it (in the process of troubleshooting the “it no longer runs at all” condition…
I assume they don’t want to pay for the tooling for a case revision, may as well keep putting components in a case you have tooling, packaging, and logistics planned for.
The clear goop is usually used to prevent shorting, and providing additional protection to critical components (those surface mount caps are prone to coming loose). I’d wager that most of that clear goop on the rear is in the power input section.
I think what HF does, as I know of other companies making less expensive gear do, is to shop around the OEM market to find who will make a product less expensively. So they change OEMs dependent on the prices charged. As circuit design can be accomplished in different ways, as I know from my time designing products for my own company, years ago, the actual design isn’t that important, as long as the OEM doesn’t take shortcuts with safety or part quality. Since this is a very basic design, it doesn’t really matter how it’s done. Higher end manufacturers either have their own factories in China, or elsewhere, or are in control of the process from end to end, specifying every detail.
I agree with both of you guys. The interesting thing is I only see one part number for the titanium 225 on their site, but there are over 4 part numbers for the titanium 125. I know having opened 2 of the titanium 125s that they were 100% different inside despite appearing the same outside. That was highly unexpected, literally no shared components lol.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg if they just are minor updates, the part number should remain the same. They detect the differences with the serial number. I’m even surprised they have different part numbers if the externals and the specs are the same. My 20 ton press had a different part number from their older model. But they were very different. The older one had a welded frame while the newer one has a bolted together frame.
Another excellent video. I'm at that stage where I need to step up to a quality welder and I don't know what to get... I love stick and tig. I don't like the messy mig splatter that much but is there a situation where you would "need" a mig? A scenario that a stick wouldn't work?
I spent 5 years welding with just a stick and tig welder. You can do most everything with both of those. Where mig is really handy is for thin auto body, and higher production work. It’s also easier to learn to weld with mig. Aluminum with a spool gun is more effective (aka you can weld thicker aluminum) than tig of the same amperage. Personally I would spend the money on a quality tig/stick welder and a small 140$ flux core wire welder, that would take care of most anything 😀
@@makingmistakeswithgreg That is exactly what I've been thinking. Thank you for saying it. Awesome videos! You are a true instructor. Thank you!
You said in the beginning to be careful even when its off 21:43 could rating be yating? If r us a baby Y (yachting? ⛵)
Lol silastic is the white toothpaste backup because of the crap solder nowadays..the clear coating on micro PCB electronics boards is conformal coating aka polymeric film its a moisture barrier..remember welders have to hold up in the field in a truck and on the costal areas with salty air
On any of these inverter welders, I'm careful not to do any grinding around them when the fan is running. Any ingress of metal particles could easily bridge a circuit and cause a failure. That might also be why then bagged the switch.
No doubt the dust will easily short out components. That’s why the fan on demand is a good selling point in my opinion. With the fan only running as needed the grinder dust won’t get pulled in all the time.
I am fixing an old Lincoln, after 10 years the relay switching from 110 to 240 failed, so it sent 240v volts thru the voltage doubler melting the caps, blowing the IGBT's. and god knows what else. Its a good reason to buy a cheap DC unit, as even the top brands will fail eventually, if you want one to last, the transformer versions are the way to go. Lincoln really need to get their act together, they charge stupid prices for replacement boards-4x the price of the 2nd hand prices for a unit!.
Sorry to hear about your machine. It sucks that replacement parts cost so much. I try to fix everything I can but in that situation where the parts cost more than a used unit it’s hard to justify the costs 🙁.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Luckily I am a dab hand at electronics, so will be replacing it at component level, 6 IGBT's, 2 caps, 2 diodes and possibly the 110-240v switching relay, thats £100 of components right there, still it saved me £100 on a working 2nd hand one.
Any Hobart vids like this one?
So I generally only open up welders I have laying around. Hobart welders in general are pretty simple transformer machines, much like Lincoln’s. If I had a Hobart sitting around I would do a video on it but sadly I don’t. I will be doing a comparison video to compare a purely transformer stick welder to a modern igbt welder soon though.
It's common, and in fact allowed by the US NEC, to undersize electrical components on welding circuits, based on the duty cycle. That machine might put out 225 amps, but only for 2 minutes out of 10, and that switch will probably do that a few times before it fails LOL
Jokes on you, you can arc gouge with the thing.
Jeez cost of the Esab is equal to the monstrosity of the Primeweld TIG 325 AC/DC... Nowadays big name brands just make it so much easier for us to make the choice + replacement boards for the small guys run around 70-120 max and for the big boys boards run 700-1500...
One of the things you must keep in mind is the capability and efficiency of the esab. It’s over 90% efficient and has near perfect power factor. The primeweld will not come close to matching the esab on power output on 120v, or on say a 7600 watt generator. It also likely tig welds at a lower amperage, has a lower starting current, welds with 6010 perfect, and is far more portable. The price you pay on it is to have the capability of a high end tig machine in a compact package that’s useable to do mobile repairs. If someone wants a shop welder that won’t move, 100% a larger less compact machine like the primeweld is the way to go. I own a multitude of welders and the compact ones are what I use the most.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Cant argue regarding portability factor and duty cycle, the Esab packs a punch in a much smaller and lightweight package. At lowest amp the Primeweld is rated at 5 amps and runs 6010 but probably not as smooth as the Esab. For me the cost of the mobo's played a role, quite the difference in prices of motherboards.
Matter of fact harbor freight will have 2 sku for same item and they will be built to completely different standards, I have witnessed this with their pnumatic tools,welders and jack stands so based on luck only, You may or may not get your money worth from harbor fright thats why ppl have a love hate relation ship with them and that should be alarming IMO.
A tombstone will last 50 years, but I personally wouldn’t want to own something that inefficient and heavy and limited in ability for 10 years, no less 50.
Definitely agree. To me old transformer machine’s weld great but having a portable unit with adjustable settings to dial in welds better is a far better option, even if they don’t last nearly as long.
What him said
My cheap welder has a 60 % duty cycle, 20 % is a joke.
Duty cycles are probably one of the most fictitious specs of a welder. There is no standard for how it’s determined. Most cheap welders lie about the duty cycle. Almost all welders will exceed their rating significantly. Most better welders will specify an ambient temp the test was done and the amp loading. Cheap welders just specify a percentage. Many cheap stick welders will specify say 200a at 20v at 60% duty cycle, yet stick operates at 24+ volts, so the whole number they are claiming is irrelevant. The only true way to know what it actually is requires testing it. It’s safe to say if the welder isn’t stamped CSA, UL listed, or “conforms to” some standard, all the specs are likely a lie.
All that "high" quality construction and it's still just as likely to fail at the same time/rate as a cheapo from Harbor freight. That's the big rub with me. Not to mention, warranty support isn't any better from "big name" manufacturers. What is a guy supposed to do?
Well based on my experience esab/miller/lincoln, and other high end machines have better customer service, parts availability, and longevity than the harbor freight (and other cheap units). Right now I can call miller and talk with an expert to help troubleshoot a welder (I had to do it last week so I know they still do it). Many other big companies are the same. Given the capability of the esab 200 in the video vs the titanium 225, the esab is worth 4x the price to me. That’s not to say cheaper welders like the 225 aren’t great, that welder is awesome for the money. When you drag both of them to a job and have use them all day the differences are far more than skin deep. Keep in mind the esab has a 3 year warranty, Harbor freight is 90days. I have been using the esab 5 days a week for over a year, and I still have two years left on the warranty.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg you can purchase a warranty for pennies on the dollar or take for instance Eastwood welders come with a three year. Look at this guy and his high dollar Miller: ua-cam.com/video/oDgz8wpfwYE/v-deo.htmlsi=eiLSNnYE4bAJZqKJ
4 months out of warranty and a "board" costing half of what a new machine does goes out and Miller tells him "sorry". That's no better than a vulcan harbor freight welder that you can get a three year warranty on. I can't bring myself to spend big bucks if these companies don't support their products better than that.