4K Video is driving me BANANAS.
Вставка
- Опубліковано 3 лип 2024
- Read me:
Apologies in advance, still fine tuning the hardware audio delay to match the camera sensor latency. Audio is prob 10ms-20ms early.. aka 1/4 to 1/2 frame @ 24fps. I’ll get it right :)
I honestly thought this flip would have been a 2grand solution on the high side as I have the 4k cameras already, with 4k being in the consumer space for over a decade... But, nope!
So I won’t be doing this - and will be remaining at 1080p until a time that 8k is all the rage, and 4k is tech garbage ;) - that or whenever BM releases an ATEM mini 4K.
You've fully answered your own question here. In the consumer/prosumer domain, 4K is more practical as a direct recording format. 4K switching and processing is a different story. Consider that you need far more storage for properly encoding 4K as well, and you're probably not going to stream 4K webcam feeds to your clients. One comment trend is people suggesting Noctua fanning stuff, and lol, indeed I have actually done that multiple times. I've modded $15k power supplies, audio amps etc with noctua fans haha. Sometimes, it's honestly a decent solution. For fans near audio gear, one caveat, is that DC fans produce a lot of electrical noise (due to electronic commutation) which can couple into analog circuitry. Noctua fans are quiet sonically but not electrically. The guy in comments relating this video to recommendations for audio listening gear specific to old school trance (WITH an included track sample) gets an upvote for being a beautiful and unique human being.
Can't give any advice Neil, but I work for a top 5 global media production & distribution company. We haven't got 4k/UHD distribution in PAL markets yet due to tech limitations, it's not easy and you're not alone! Also our 1080p masters look way better than any 4k content I've consumed, bit rate over resolution any day.
Very interesting info! Thanks Ruth!
Yeah, I’m holding steady on 1080p for now.
Hi Neil, i do not recommend doing the 4K project with those cameras. This are really entry level cameras made for vlog, you will have more information and detail in the image but not really much more relevant information for the kind of shot such as the ones you use in the studio. Most of the details will be not really noticiable as you are not recording more color information (Color data is really more important and those cameras are not really capable to give you more color data. In the other hand you will uso a lot more storage and a lot more gpu/cpu for anything. If you just "upscale" the footage with a good software you will have almost the same results for no extra expense. Cheers!
I completely agree. Just upload 4k upscaled to youtube that way there are less compression artifacts. It's worth a test at least!
4k video is really really hard. Your proposed solution with the ME 1 was the same one I immediately thought of. My second thought was the Decklink cards, which are loud and you don’t have room for. If I was feeling adventurous, I might try modding a Decklink card with a Noctua fan to quiet it down and putting that in an external PCIe chassis, but that seems like a lot of work (but could be content if you videoed it?). Your best option is probably to wait a few years until BMD releases an Atem Mini 4K Pro ISO.
I think the real lesson here is: 4k video is currently expensive, a pain, and not worth the cost of effort of admission yet. Especially once you start considering how little resolution matters because video compression in Zoom, on UA-cam, and basically everywhere across the internet will make your videos look like they were shot on a potato anyways, regardless of whether they are 1080p or 4k.
Agreed - time is always the best solution and waiting it out… as DSP gets cheaper, more efficient in power/cooling etc. an eventual 4K mini ATEM is what I want so here’s hoping. If I’m going to blow 6k on something, it’s not going to be this current solution.. 😂
This was all an idea to get crisper text on tabletop equipment. But alas, 1080p it’ll be.
All I can add is that the different ATEM models have very varying processing functions even though they share the same software controller. Started working on the Television Studio HD, which has no sync delay or eq. And it´s loud!!!! Don´t know if the Production Studio 4K will miss these features, but it may very well be the case as it´s from a similar era as the Television Studio HD.
Immediately went to the elgato website to see if their capture cards are Mac compatible and right when i switched back to this video you mentioned they aren't lol good luck!
Sounds like early adopter tax! I was looking into setting up my home network as 10 gigabit. I have network devices that are capable of 10 gigabit, but in the end it seemed the tech isn't quite ready/ available enough, plus it costs a premium if you can figure out what you need. I have also been curious about setting up an Atmos system at home, but just finding a signal processor/ /AVR with Atmos pre-outs (hopefully XLR) costs thousands. And that is before speakers! So yeah, I'll wait.
Check out the tonewinner AT-300..
I figured 10 years of consumer 4k would have dropped the price but … 1080p is where I’ll be staying :)
I did add 10g to get between my Mac and backup server - it wasn’t cheap - but not horrendous either
I have had very bad luck with my Elgato Cam Link to do this exact sort of this, albeit capturing a second Mac’s display into OBS, then OBS to Zoom via its obs-virtual-cam plugin. It only allows up to 1080p30 on the input Mac in 1080p, and using it with Zoom causes crashes of the caphost subprocess which means you have to quit and relaunch. If I can’t get reliable 1080p30 out of it, I can’t say the 4k perf is going to be any better.
It’s bad enough that I spent half a day looking at ATEM Mini Pro based setups. Thank you for posting your current setup, since it’s basically exactly what I need!
Just had to do this at work, 4K 12g SDI from camera to Microsoft teams, we use a black magic design web presenter hd, or the 4K version for you. Shows up as a web cam feed. 4K is expensive right now.
I've been down the 4k road and gave-up. It's way too expensive and I loose the spoofed web-cam. 1080p has worked well for me and I've taken to up-scaling when prepping captured footage for editing into a 4k project in Final Cut.
I do something similar, but a *much* lower cost version where I have a Mac Mini running OBS (Open Broadcaster Software) and some Elgato CamLink 4Ks to capture the HDMI sources. OBS lets you do all the compositing, PiP, overlays, etc. and then I have it display a fullscreen Preview which I capture back into my main Mac as a "webcam" via one final CamLink. I control all of it with an Elgato StreamDeck.
This is not a plug-and-play hardware solution, but it's a ton cheaper and a lot more flexible because OBS has way more options and plugins than the ATEM does. Even if that isn't useful for you, the CamLink 4K might still be interesting - they're great little devices for turning 4K HDMI into a bog-standard USB webcam input with no drivers/software.
Really great stuff. Only thing I might change is the SDI runs and make them optical HDMI 2.1 so you dont need extra power or clunky boxes. They are cheap too...like really cheap. I got some Pearlstone 100ft and 150ft ones on B&H a while back and they are still going strong. They bend and lay nicer than SDI too.
yep - that's true! I have 2 HDMI optical extenders on my prinary monitors that need no extra power.
Did you look at any of the Aja rack mount or portable SSD recorders? they might let you record but you would still need some way to switch at 4k. They have a stream thing too so you could stream direct to youtube but I don’t know if that would introduce any stability issues to protools or you audio routing...they make a rack mount switcher but it might be pricey. Helio Plus v2.0. or their IO 4K plus or their Kipro Ultra 12g
What if you build a custom, separate computer that will take all the inputs, do all of the video and audio processing and then just give you a single HDMI pipe that you can record in QuickTime on your Mac Pro? (Or stream through Zoom.) ... Essentially replace the ATEM Mini Pro.
Nothing wrong with good 1080 it certainly looks better than bad 4K, I like you current solution especially for its "just works" feature which is definitely not something you can say about software solutions.
What video editor are you happy with? I’d suggest ISO record on the ATEM Mini, create the EDL for Resolve, and swap the video files out with 4K versions from SD cards afterwards. I guess you were never thinking of 4K video conference anyway. Or buy the TV Studio 4K8 that maybe wasn’t available when you did the research.
Software like ECAMM can do some of this - the problem will be having the multiple cam inputs
Funny thing, The 1M/E ProductionStudio 4K doesn't have that picture-in-picture "supersource" feature that you use...Anyway:
A solution that I think is the most like your current 1080p-only workflow
ATEM Television Studio 4K8 (predecessor's fan is quiet; meant for being used in a quiet space rather than a server room)
3840x2160 Recording to an internally-mounted, network-accessible m.2 flash storage (sorry quicktime)
1920x1080 USB webcam output for Zoom/Skype
Unfortunately it runs roughly CAD $6.2k* BUT it's one piece and ultimately doesn't change a thing about your current workflow but the recording resolution and how you start recording.
Short of this, I don't think a 4K(recording) workflow gets any cheaper given your requirements.
* price estimation given that it is not yet released and I don't know of the Canadian equivalent to B&H Photo
Thx for this! Yeah, I think I’ll have to wait this one out until BM releases an Atem mini 4k variant at some point in the future. It’s been an interesting rabbit hole to say the least!
The usd to cad is BRUTAL right now. Like .. multiply a usd price by 1.35 🤪😭
@@NeilParfittMusic Unfortunately I don't think they will ever release a mini4K variant-once you get to a 4K workflow, the thermal overhead would be too much for the BlackPlasticDesign 😜of the Mini ATEMs in addition to the implied "just get a bigger switcher" argument.
4k is for the Brownlee's of life.
MKBHD is using 6k Red cameras, or even better.
@@DerekDavis213 I wanna be down 😀
Honestly I wouldn’t upgrade to 4k until Blackmagic makes a 4k Atem mini iso
Agreed
Mini will likely never be 4K-ISO given that the larger Television Studio 4K doesn't even have ISO due to the thermal overhead being too high. Not to mention that the intended workflow once you get to using 4K with BMD gear is recording on camera instead of the switcher.
@@zzyzx13 well time will tell but I would not put anything past them.
Off topic here: you should put out a video dedicated to your VEPro setup and usage.
I'm not quite sure I understood a clear use case for 4k. Will people really watch those videos in 4k on 4k screens? (I know I haven't!) Is the bitrate & compression going to be good enough for 4k to matter? I know from video games media that it took ages to get 1080p60 hardware that wasn't insanely expensive...and decent files will get *big*. I wonder if punching in on the 4k source when needed would give some of the benefits without too much hassle? Granted that's assuming the 4k cameras have good enough quality to begin with for 4k to matter. Or what about one of those 360° cameras where you can zoom and pan at will?
It's perfect, leave it alone. Maybe in a few years, Black Magic will make a 4K ISO mini for $800. Then you can switch. But for now, if there is some masterpiece of a webinar that you think needs to be 4K, just use the recordings on your camera's SD cards and do some post production - I'm not sure, but I think the ATEM mini can create an EDL that opens in DaVinci.
It is strange that Black Magic seems to be moving away form 4k. They have a dozen new products that are only HD.
I know your pain. I've been searching for the perfect IEM and DAC combo for my music taste. Impossible to find a proper answer for my exact use case: Old school trance and techno on Tidal.
Example: Scooter - Techno Is Back.
I want fast, deep responsive base. I got the IFi FH1s IEM and I want a DAC to roll back the mids and treble to make more room for the base. Getting an answer for my exact music taste is hard 😏
searching for the perfect bass response in IEMs is kind of pointless imo, low frequency needs to be driven by big woofers to be properly replicated especially for a genre that goes as deep in the low end as techno or trance. I'd add that here it's not so much a question of technology but a question of physics and acoustics, the lower you go the longer the wavelength is and the bigger the driver needs to be to replicate it.
Good luck with finding what you want out of IEMs, they're amazing for clarity, soundstage and overall listening experience but I think you will have to adapt for the lower end of the spectrum
How about the USB-based Elgato Cam Link 4K? The Mac will just recognize your Sony ZV-1 as just another USB webcam.
Interesting - I’d still need the m/e switcher to handle the 3 sources, overlays & PIP - but this eliminates $1500 from the costs if it works. Might Amazon this and give it a whirl with one camera. Thx!
I had some more thoughts. Hopefully Apple will come out with an upgrade to Apple Silicon for the Mac Pro. I have converted my system to a Mac Studio M1 Max. It is half the silicon of the M1 Ultra. It comes with 4 each Thunderbolt 4 channels along with 2 ea. USB C 10 Gb/sec on the front and 2 ea. USB A on the rear. It also has a 10 gig ethernet. The M1 Ultra version is two M1 Max chips bonded in a way that they are a single chip. The front USB C connectors on the front are Thunderbolt 4 channels in the ultra version. Studio M1 Max has 57 billion transistors, M1 Ultra has 114 billion transistors in it. The Max has 160 Gb/sec Thunderbolt capacity, 30 Gb/sec USB and 10Gb/sec ethernet. The Ultra has 240Gb/sec Thunderbolt, 10 Gb/sec USB and 10 Gb/sec ethernet.
The big thing is these chips have video encoder/decoder hardware built into the chips.
Both chips can natively decode/encode H.265 video (HEVC). I have now use this format in a MKV wrapper (file format). MKV is built to hold chapters and can hold audio in 7.1 natively. Apple Silicon in either of these chips has native hardware for H.265 . The advantage is it cuts my Netflix, Hulu, and Viki 1080P streaming bandwidth down to on average 350 MB/hour with no visible loss. It cut my AT&T usage in half. So you should absolutely think of using H.265 capable hardware when you complete this project. H.265 is extremely flexible and fast.
I keep hearing hints that Apple is coming out with a Mac Pro upgrade. So if I were you I would wait to upgrade your Capture system. This would give you the use of apple silicon with PCIE boards.
Did I mention my studio has never gotten above 130 F and the fan noise is below 45db at 1 inch. Right now my fan is running 1330 RPM with a max temp of 104 F CPU, GPU, Memory or Power Die.
Apple Silicon is making steady progress, but the gpu in M1 or M2 is still far behind NVidia RTX 4000 cards. And AMD Ryzen 7000 series processors offer much greater performance than M1/M2 , at very affordable prices.
Could you go the PC route with a NUC PC that can do 4k + thunderbolt? Skip your Mac?
I wouldn’t do 4K with zv1s. But also i know it won’t cost $7k for 4K video. Unless you gotta upgrade cameras/video in that. I don’t see why you can’t do a cam link 4K or something similar from the 1m/e or something? I know there are some elgato capture cards that is Mac friendly. Like the HD60x (it’s relatively new) is Mac compatible does 4K 30fps and has pass through. It should be able to be seen as a webcam device in most software. Also i use a cam link and it works great at 4k, but no monitoring/pass through with it.
I also second what someone else said about replacing fans with noctuna fans.
OBS would not require noisy internal capture cards. You can use 4K webcams. Keep in mind some DSLR and mirrorless cameras have software that will allow them to work like webcams in OBS studio. OBS can do everything you want to do in realtime but there would be a small amount of overhead taxing your computer. You have a 24 core CPU. Why not use it? Keep in mind on the PC side OBS can tap into Nvidia's Nvenc and Intel's Quick Sync for encoding and decoding of H.264/265 and they now support AV1 encoding and decoding. The Nvidia cards can even help with realtime effects when using certain streaming software programs. I am not sure how well the Mac OS taps into the GPU for streaming. I say give OBS a try before spending $6,0000.00.
You could go with Elgato HD60X (£189). It works with Mac, but you would need one for each camera and mix/control the video on your Mac. (You could use streamdeck though), but their streaming sw pretty good. Good luck!
camlink 4k for cature works as spoof webcam
like a hundrd bucks. you will still need the 4k BMD switcher
I think that you will not want to have 4K over zoom conference anyway. I work in production and our studio 4K 2ME is a little loud. The studio also has AES inputs that will let you bypass that adapter that you were using previously
Zoom caps at 1080p. The 4k was more for higher res UA-cam videos where I wanted the panel text on equipment super crisp and clear. I’ll be trying my Fijian x100v to see if it looks better
As far as using up all your slots, you can use thunderbolt to PCI cases. So there’s that…
Thought the same thing, he just needs a sonnet echo III rack.
There is no way to do this for cheap. I do agree with you about black magic being noisy most television/movie studios put these products in server racks so sound does not matter not in a recording studio. I happen to live close to black magic and did a project where a sound engineer wanted to do something similar ended up having to Mod off the shelf product with noctua fans and putting it in a sound proof rack with decided AC. this guy pretty much had a blank check to use so money was no object. The only thing that might come close is the ATEM Production Line Not the consumer line but still costs some $$$$
Yeah, that’s what I gathered the further down the rabbit hole I went. Oh well.
Upgrading to 4K is hard and expensive and honestly for what you are doing, probably not worth it. I would recommend upgrading your cameras thought, they are very entry level and better cameras would make your videos look better. I would also add or upgrade your lighting, that would go a long way to make your video quality better.
You’re right, good glass is good glass. I might retry my Fujifilm x100V as it looked awesome… and the only thing that bugged me (bad Audio quality using their mic input with a lav) would be a non issue now
i would buy a mini pc and then run a lighweight linux distro with obs so its dedicated hardware that you dont really have to think about
If you want that setup for cheap you can always use NDI with OBS (I know I know, but it's not that hard) on a dedicated computer with capture cards, like a used M1 Mac mini, and you can spoof an NDI source as a webcam on your main Mac, it has almost no overhead.
Based on my experiences with education 1080p is sufficient, streaming at a higher quality source doesn't always result in a more readable screen once it's been through the two or three MPEG encoders between you and the student.
Main difference is color information, resolution it's the same. You will understand.
Ouch. I see why streamers end up getting a second computer to purely capture video now. How is it so much easier in 1080p?!
Have you tried those cameras in 4K for any length of time yet? I worry about them overheating and just switching off after a while to cool down.
I would really just invest in a secondary PC mac/windows and OBS, I know you are trying to avoid it.. but OBS once setup just runs.. and the few adapters you would need for it to work is not even close to the price your at.
There's nothing wrong with it as it is Neil.
I wanted it mainly for crisp text on the front panel of equipment if doing tutorial stuff - but yeah, 1080p will be where things are at until BM releases an atem mini 4k
@@NeilParfittMusic I can understand that Neil. I really like your attention to detail in pursuit of an easy life 😉, I suppose it all comes down to the ever decreasing scale of diminishing returns.
You mentioned not using OBS, but it really wouldn't require much initial configuration and everything you're trying to accomplish would work. Buying a building a standalone PC to handle it could be worthwhile and cost-effective versus your other options. Plus, it *should* still be reliable. As others mentioned, NDI is an option to getting screen capture over the network although an additional capture card would have even lower latency.
And this one with just a small sony camera: ua-cam.com/video/N1ChHMmGTE4/v-deo.html
I'd recommend not doing 4K at all. While it's nice to have, especially for streaming purposes, all of the benefit you gain will be taken away fairly quickly. Stream compression will ruin a 4k signal much more than a 1080p because it's so much larger, or the 4k video might be downscaled to 1080 anyway. And who's on the other end? If someone's on a slow connection, they're going to have a hard time watching a 4k video streaming. Top it off with your cameras that aren't amazing 4k cameras either. The only real benefit (in terms of 4k) you have would be the desktop view.
I just don't think it's worth your time. Not yet, at least.
FPGAs…?. I'm not an expert, but I would think there's a community of experts. Within the FPGA space . My guess is someone's already done this you just have to find there community. This would be a one off solution unless Git repository for FPGA projects….. Also…. You should look at external liquid cooling for faness cooling application….
I'd probably try and replace the fans on the devices to something really quiet.
But I don't know if that's possible and how these proprietary ass closed-off systems react to that.
You could use elgato camlink 4k usb capture cards. But to do it external is very compelling.
I have one of these on doing similar work on a MacBook Pro, and cannot recommend them. macOS will only detect it as capable of 1080p30. Zoom’s caphost process crashes all the time when using it which requires a quit and relaunch to start up again. I *hate* every piece of Elgarbo hardware I have. They are the cardboard sole boots of video/streaming hardware: cheap but you’ll pay more in the long term to replace it with someone that does its job.
The WebPresenter 4K is cheaper than the UltraStudio 4K Mini, but thats all I got at the moment
I tried one last week - it works with zoom and QuickTime - tops out at 1080p there (no problem with that) but it doesn’t work with capture software like final cut etc. it’s purposely crippled
Can see the desire for 4K but bandwidth, cost, and honestly the fact that whomever you're conferencing are mostly watching in 1080 anyway. I would canvas your clients first before making this investment.
Yeah I’m staying where I’ll at. Conferencing would have still been at 1080p, it was more for the vids and getting nice crisp text from overhead cam filming various equipment etc.
Record in 1080, upscale you project to 4K in daVinci Resolve after. ;-) I do that all the time. In fact you can should put you monitors in 720p so that the text looks bigger. It looks better on the recording on smaller devices. You can still create a 4K upscaled version of all this ad it will look fantastic.
Why do you want to go to 4K?
For overhead shots of equipment with teeny front panel text, it would be nice to have the resolution
Wouldn’t it be cheaper to just use new 4k cameras directly into your Mac? It’s not like you’re making movies for the film industry.. I know you’re using your Mac for all your audio stuff, but you should just build a windows machine to handle this video. I have a 2019 Mac Pro, it gets left in the dust by my new machines I build for gaming every other year. But I know, more machines = more money, more space, new software cost…. Or say hey, fuck it… do how you’re doing it now because it looks fine. It’s good enough for us UA-camrs, I can’t speak for your viewers outside of UA-cam. Good luck. Keep us updated
I think they could stream in 1080 max (after a fw update as when they came out they could do only 720 or something...) and the could overheat quite easily as I heard.
Even the 2023 Mac Pro is destroyed by a PC, when you consider price vs performance.
$19,000 USD Mac Pro is similar to a $4000 USD Windows PC.
@@DerekDavis213 show us your $19,000 Mac Pro.
Audio and Video are very out of sync - maybe your mouse slipped in editing?
I see what I did.. whoops..no it was my brain that slipped. I had my delay set for something else I was doing yesterday instead of the calculated offset for the camera sensor delay that I had established. Blahhh
Why would you want to do it in 4K? It's not like your producing a full feature motion picture. There is a reason that Directv only has 5 4k channels on their satellite and its called bandwidth. To do 4K realtime requires massive processing. Each source has 4 times the pixels as 1080 but those pixels have red green and blue colors so really you are talking 12 times the processing. If you add HDR to the mix the math is insane. Programs like final cut pro sync and render the final product, but they can't do it realtime. You need the equipment van they use for the NFL to do that.
The system you have now is realtime. You don't have to render to get your final product. It is there constantly. I don't know about you, but 5 seconds into a film I forget about pixels and enjoy the show.
Your 1080 P capture looks like all the delays are the same. Are you sure your 4K capture system won't delay some of the video signals longer due to different processing paths?
Just some thoughts.
Great feedback! I wanted crisp text for equipment on my table if I’m doing tutorials - but honestly - after my rabbit hole / circle on Friday I was 99% sure I’d stick with 1080p
… and today I’m definitely at 100% :)
I do not understand the necessity for 4K. I do not really care about that at all.