Can I Use This Primer? 223 primers TESTED!
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- Опубліковано 29 січ 2022
- What primers can I use for 223? What if I can't find the primer I want? In this video we test 9 different primers in 223 to see if velocity and pressure are affected. Do magnum primers give us higher pressures? Lets find out!
223 vs 556 factory comparison: • 223 vs 556 - The Hidde...
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Great video!
Early on, I bought into the "everyone's reloading" or "everyone's hoarding" but it's been two years and there doesn't seem to be any reprieve in the component shortage. What I do see is a few components tricking in but at ridiculous prices.
A pound of powder is now priced at $45 to $50. A brick of primers range from $99 to $149! New brass $100 for a bag of 100, 30 caliber tips $50 a box of 100.
Ammunition typically sells for $40 for a box of 20!
There's something more going on here than meets the eye because hoarding and new enthusiasts only last so long. When you think about it the one component that shuts everything down is the primer, no primers, no cartridges!
Place the price of components and ammunition out of the range of many certainly puts the 2nd amendment in jeopardy!
Hands down the most informative video series out there for loading. The amount of data presented is well beyond what any amatuer loader would evert hope to gather. The fact he can assemble this kind of data is amazing, and the time/cost factor involved for most reloaders is out of reach. Thank you!!!
My fav small rifle primer is the Federal 205 series. I’ve also had really good results with win small rifles and cci 400. As crazy as it seems I have better results with just standard 400s than I do with the 450s, 41s or even the BR4s. With that said I shoot them all and love to play with different loads. I have never found the primer to be the most important part of the load. Good bullets and barrels are the heart of good accuracy in my opinion followed by brass and powder. With that said it all adds up in the game we play. The slightest of change can turn a good load into a great load and good primers are definitely important. I have been able to take my best loads and still get good results even using import primers over the years. Speaking of import primers I wish we would see more imports to help with supply. Really the only imports I’ve seen in this latest shortage have been Unis Ginex. I did see some people selling off old stocks of imports at the start of this but I have not seen any sold through the distribution/ wholesale/ retail channels. It is good news that the operation in Texas is opening up in the future. With all the consolidation that has happened and lack of imports we really are at Vista’s and Olin’s mercy. I have also been hoping that Ammo Inc produces and sells primers with their new production plant they are building. I have also been hoping Fiocchi would start domestic production out of their newest facility or at-least import some like they used to.
Thanks for the video and information. Some primers can make a difference. Luckily I had some put back. But ran across some Winchester small rifle primer a couple of months ago. Paid more than I would like .
Thanks Brother for the heads up , great video.
22.6-22.9 is a really good flat spot for me with CCI primers. I tend to load right in the middle and group really well out of my 18” 3-Gun set up.
Great vid . Thx for sharing !
Great video exactly what I needed to know
Great video. Thank you!
Awesome video. Thanks👍🏻
Just getting started. So much data. So much to learn.
I pretty much only use regular CCI primers, their magnum primers or their NATO primers for rifle and regular Federal pistol primers obviously for pistol. They've always done what I needed so I just started stock piling a metric crap ton of them over the years and never tried anything else. I've honestly wanted to try some of the different Match and BR primers out there but at least for now with prices the way they are I don't feel like they're going to do much if anything better then what I already have so it's hard to justify the ridiculous prices. I definitely appreciate all the info you put out there brother it's really good stuff keep it coming!!!
Great video, yes primers are starting to show up on the shelves here in New England ( CCI, rem, fed ) the cost per 1K is $100, ouch !!
Buy only what you need, prices will come down, what that being said it won't be like the old days !!!
Excellent video. Practical, useful information.
Thanks Randy!
Great Video, I Learned a lot. Mostly the Brand you use doesn't mean much. use what you can get and don't worry so much. I've had great groups with all brands.
Holy smokes, what interesting results!!!!!
Great video, good job.
Glad you enjoyed it
These are my favorite kind of data for controlled testing videos!
Well done
Great job !
Good video idea. 👍
Awesome video!
Thanks!
Great video and data!
Glad it was helpful!
Great video man, especially now a days
I have been asked a lot about this lately. I wanted to put some numbers behind it rather than feelings.
I have found major differences in primers also. It depends on the powder. CCI#41's make H4895 go bezerk! And in a good way in some situations. WSR's make TAC purr. and also seem to calm down W748 a bit also. Fed AR Match primers tame erratic velocities over a brand or two. Blah Blah Blah. Thanks for the vid.
Could you do a start to finish reloading video? I have been reloading pistol for about 6 years. I just started reloading for my .308. It’s hard to find a step by step reloading video that shows you the order of operations from case prep details and order to the finished round ready to fire.
Thanks.
I just did a test myself.
.223 bolt gun
22in barrel
Varget
Primers:
CCI br4, 400, 450
Fed GM205M
Remington 7 1/2
CCI 400 had highest velocity at 2604 and ES at 31 and SD of 13 AND shot a 5 shot group at 100 yards of 0.10 inches!!
The CCI 450 (Magnums) has the LOWEST velocity average at 2574...go figure and ES of 34 SD of 14
There's also another factor related to primer performance, which is not related to the primers themselves. It is the uniformity of the primer pocket in the cartridge case and the deepness in which the primer is seated.
Are you local to Ashland Ohio? The primer and powder shelves sure look like the Fin Feather Fur shelves
Also, the situation with primers makes sense. Speer tested a theory in the 22 hornet with both rifle and pistol primers. They discovered that the gentler pistol primers created less peak pressure and allowed for higher charge weights and thus higher velocity.
Remember: pressure AND gas volume determine velocity--not just pressure.
and remember this is all of these variables fired from a particular firearm. You could add the shooter but I'm guessing this was a rifle mounted in a ransom rest... Still, the day and the environment would have a small play as well. Great job on the data! I mathematically calculate pressure at this point, but would really like to add the PT II to my bench. The only issue I'd have is in calculating for auto pistols with no exposed barrel. I'm guessing the manufacturers use a test rig with an exposed barrel for their claims.
You're amazing. You set the "high bar" for information videos on UA-cam. GREAT WORK and thanks.
Glad you enjoy it.
Awesome video, with one small error: You said the greatest ES was 40, but your chart shoes it was 45; your point was still completely valid though
Could primers have length of burn rate also? That might account for s&b primers having a lower temp but higher velocity , a longer burn rate? Better powder burn?
Question, have any of you ever used the Fiocchi large rifle primer ?
There is none hear in Pennsylvania. Also found out that the employees at sportsman’s warehouse are buying them and selling them to their buddies before the hit the shelves. I had it stopped shooting reloading all of it. How can you get supplies when you have a bunch of guys that are always buying whatever stock is out their to ad to their 25000 stock of primers.
Yes you can use any small rifle primers in AR
Unless you use a automatic Rifle then I suggest the CCI 41.
#10 caps for my black powder pistols are always out of stock for years now.
I am interested to get into reloading and I've watched most of your series on reloading items, I was wondering what kit (although I know kits dont have everything) would be the best to have for a $500-$600 budget. Also I plan on buying some other dies , tools etc.
Hi Connor, welcome! I was thinking of covering this in a video. Does components and dies need to be included in that cost or just the kit and tools?
I'm new to reloading and will be reloading for .243 Win and 6.5 Creedmore
I am currently finding it hard to locate a store in my state that has Large Rifle Primers, I found online a place selling "Ginex Large Rifle Primers", any thoughts on these primers?
The AR primers but only have thicker cups, but the apex of the anvil is farther away from the base of the cup than other primers.
When I started reloading 223, I was looking to improve accuracy on longer distance shots over factory ammo (Hornady 40gr Varmint Express was the best by far).
I was using this rifle for predator control, in all weather conditions & seasons, and a wise friend gave me a bit of advice... USE MAGNUM PRIMERS in hunting loads.
His rational was that, in his testing, he saw little-if-any change in velocity but saw a much "cleaner" powder-burn resulting in lower SD's & max spread in any given load he had.
This is nonsense obviously.
I just ordered powder and primers. Shipment made it from Texas to Utah headed to Oregon. Just got email from carrier requiring me to buy a $515 insurance policy. Don't seem right to me, is this normal?
I like your method of holding toolheads. What is it you are using on the wall?
They are from inline fabrication. a couple other places have started making something similar but I haven't tried any but these.
I don't like reloading for common cartridges like 5.56/.223, 9mm or 7.62x51/.308 so when I reload for an AR, it's 6.8 SPC, TAC6, 458 SOCOM or 6.5 Creedmoor.
Do you have any opinion on primers when it's not 5.56/.223?
I've been pretty well stocked up with ammo and components since before covid so I haven't had do any loading or change any recipes but understanding the amount of primer flexibility would be good.
Hi Joe, I have a whole playlist: ua-cam.com/play/PLXl7rMHW73NOtgyQHXIA-diiSYoEEDjiE.html
I’ve read repeatedly the CCI #41 and 205 Match AR were quite similar to Magnum primers in performance. Same with the Rem 7 1/2. Any truth to this?
I consider 41s, 205mAR, rem 7.5, 450s and br4s to be magnum primers. They have thicker cups on them.
Is the 222 mandrel giving you enough neck tension for magazine loading on the ar platform? Asking because I have read in the past by the keyboard masters that the recommended will be around 3 thousands for mag loading ar due to the bullet moving when the bolt loads the round into the chamber, have you seen this. 222 will give you around 1.5ths to 2ths neck tension, is this enough? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Thank you for your great info.
Hello and this is a great question. First this is new brass and if anything most of this brass is "too small" so it need any dings etc ironed out. Projectile is .224, so if it springs back at all other going to be smaller not larger. So I should be running between. 002 or a little more. That said I encourage to subscribe because I am going to do a series on setting neck tension and show seating force graphs with my amp press to put numbers to these measurements. (223 will be one of the calibers) I am sure you wanted a quick answer but stick around data is better than opinions. Thanks for commenting!
I've watched this video a few times... Did I miss the SD/ES by primer? I only see it by charge weight. Consistency matters. Thank you!
CCI small pistol magnum primers are dimensionally identical to small rifle primers just BTW. Trying to find ARcomp up here is the real task, even CFE223 is getting tough to come across at a reasonable price. Just saw 2lbs of Retumbo go at auction last week for $500 CAD ($400.USD)...friggin ridiculous!
the cups on small pistol are thinner and may be pierced in rifles. The primer height is different as rifle primer pocket depth is deeper than pistol primer pockets which will leave rifle primers protruding from pistol primer pockets.
@@greybone777 small pistol _magnum_
Not small pistol.
Do you have any data or videos on mag vs non-magnum primers? Maybe on magnum rounds?
HI Drew, I have a playlist here with most of my primer testing: ua-cam.com/play/PLXl7rMHW73NOtgyQHXIA-diiSYoEEDjiE.html
H335 with cci magnum will produce higher Velocity until 25.3 grains after that regular primers become fasyrr
I've said it forever, not a nickel's worth of difference. Primers serve one purpose, igniting the powder. Not only that, during this shortage, I've been using SRPs for small pistol cartridges with no difference or FTFs. I have heard from others however that light striking pins may not ignite SRPs in some pistols.
big difference with shotshells though!
@vettelover2009 Powdered Aluminum to be exact. An most magnum primers are normal primer compound with added aluminum powder.
Within reasonable ranges, yeah I'd agree. I can see how the guys shooting extreme long range could see differences.
Wow im glad i found this video, great video too.. Just got a some of cci small rifle primers some no.41 5.56 primers, and about 600 large pistol primers. They didnt have large rifle or small pistol as i hoped they were overpriced at 12 bucks for a hundred and they only limited us to two bricks at a time.. Didnt stop me from going back everyday lol primers are scarce here in Hawaii 🤷🏽♂️ they dont have any now and sold out in two weeks.
Any news on Expansion Industries. They were supposed to pick up the slack in the primer supply.
Personally I doubt if we ever see anything from them, but only time will tell.
What area are you from? That fin shelf looks awfully familiar.
Good morning can I use 6 and a half Remington small rifle primers on my AR 15 thanks south afrika
6-1/2 Small Rifle primer is primarily designed for use in the 22 Hornet, they recommend against using it for 223.
Pretty sure when Remington ran lake city they used 71/2s in the 5.56. Everyone around me only use cci 400 so I can usually get 1000 rem 7 1/2s at the drop of a hat.
You're lucky man. I haven't been able to find any Remington 7 1/2s... been looking for over 8 months.
Look up primer brisance, it will explain everything you want to know
🇦🇺😎👍Yep $700/750 per 5000 CCI at a cheap shop atm with no relief in sight
I feel your pain: the primer shortage is worldwide.
On this subject, do you have a video about primer pockets uniformization? Eric Cortina was making a good point the other day that uniforming your primer pockets just makes sense if the tool uses the same datum of the base of the case than your priming tool. Otherwise, your caliper would be able to have the same measurement of primer depth from the case base while with variations on the distance of the primers from the flash hole.
I tried using a Lyman pocket uniforming tool for a while on primarily once-fired Mil brass. It rarely uniformed anything other than scraping residue off the bottom of the pockets. On occasion it would actually scape a tiny bit of brass off the flash hole circumference. I don't bother with it anymore.
Check out this 223 vs 556 factory comparison: ua-cam.com/video/DGekiI0TzaE/v-deo.html
You have some of the best videos. Regarding the magnum primer, this data conforms to a supposition I heard previously, it goes something like( and forgive me, my memory is fading on this) the difference between pistol, pistol mag, rifle, and rifle mag( Either all small or all large) is not the fire they ignite but the thickness of the cup. They are successively harder to ignite and will contain more pressure.
Hi Steve, I am glad you enjoy the content I have heard lots of things over the years but try to test as much as possible. I have a primer playlist depending how deep you want to go here: ua-cam.com/play/PLXl7rMHW73NOtgyQHXIA-diiSYoEEDjiE.html
Has anyone ever experienced a slam-fire using CCI 400 or 450 in an AR? I get 41s usually but have some 400s on deck as a last resort.
I used many 400s in many different ARs and never had an issue. 450s are a mag primer and have a thicker cup and are recommended over 400s.
@@halfdollar86 Thanks for the info!
Never in a mini 14 ,ar or any other semi auto.
Small commentary. The CCI #41 doesn’t have a thicker cup. The difference as specified in military contracts is that in order to reduce the chance of slam fire, the distance between the cup and the anvil is larger, not the thickness of the cup wall
Once again, you gather real data to support your conclusions. Excellent as usual.
Thank you.
I wish I could fine cci 209 blackthorn primers I have a new cva acc lr and have not been able to sight it in. No 209 primers anywhere and I live in Texas. A waste of money I don't know how all the black powder gun company stay in busines you can't buy gun if you can't shoot them. Something got to give.
👍
very interesting . especially with the cci41 . have a older speer reloading manual that states the cci 41 is a magnum primer and is interchangeable with small rifle magnum primers . says the same with the large rifle primers .
The only difference between 41's and 450's is there is slight bit more gap between the cup and anvil, I meant tiny
Someone verify for me... But I believe CCI 450's also use the thicker cup.
New subscriber thanks for the content, new to reloading. Question for anyone, is there a dye, or some type of marker that can be used to mark the end of the casing to identify your loads? For example I use to different rounds for my Blackout, a supersonic and subsonic loads. I want to be able to mark the rounds so I know what I'm grabbing. Thanks.
If I can’t tell by the look of the bullet, I use different manufacture of brass to tell the difference
@@30Huckleberry thank you. I saw a guy at the range, and he uses some kind of plain pen he said. Just curious if anyone else does that. Guess I could use colored markers, just not sure if it will stay on. I was hoping to find what ammo manufacturers use, some of my ammo has red and green dye around the primer.
I have used markers to make an "X" on the head with different colors or completely "paint" the entire head with the marker. A stamp pad might be faster and I'll probably try that sometime. Usually I am just trying to identify my reloads from other people's reloads or factory brass when recovering them off the ground. For the load I mark my reusable plastic boxes well with labels.
One method is to use machinist’s layout fluid. It paints on like ink and dries rapidly. Note that you will eventually stain your work area so blue may be a better choice than red.
@@TheSailingwoodworker would thanks, great ideas.
Thanks for the video. Great info. An SD of 15 in .223 is my max acceptable btw. Somewhat arbitrary but that shoots well enough for me at my normal distances.
How did you measure pressure?
I bought a Pressure trace 2 last year. Video is here if you are interested: ua-cam.com/video/KeMzq3ZepYg/v-deo.html
@@BoltActionReloading Thank you
What about cci 350 LARGE PISTOL MAGNUM PRIMERS IN A 223 ?
I am not a fan of pistol primers in a rifle application. In this video I show why: ua-cam.com/video/yZV6Pe1eRY4/v-deo.html
@@BoltActionReloading Thank you for the response and the information
No problem. I hope you found the info interesting.
My oldest Speer manual wants you to use magnum primers for some ball powders like Blc2 ,760,h450,785,h380,748 ,and h335. It also lists non magnum primers for many magnum rifle loads. Speer manual #10..
best way to test a primer to see if it is worth using in a free floating firing pin gun, is to put a primer in a empty revolver case and see if the revolver will set it off. found that win WSR works really well for 357mag and now refrain from using them in semi-auto type guns. cci 400, 41, 450, and BR4 primers do not fire off in a revolver and i have stuck to using those in rifle loads. a person always wants to test components in ways that are safe before going to the intended use for elimination purposes.
My revolver set off all small rifle primers I had including magnums
If you really start digging into the chemistry behind the primers you'll start to understand why the fixation on primer differences is misplaced. It's generally known that different primers have different cup thicknesses to account for heavier or lighter strikes. But really when you boil down the compound used in the primers it's essentially all the same. The only real difference between regular and magnum primers is the addition of fine powdered aluminum to allow for a burn that reaches further into the case. It does burn hotter temperature wise, but doesn't really add any more power to the system. The goal is to get those burning aluminum grains to move deeper into the case before they lose energy.
There's a pretty in-depth group of guys who are using that knowledge to make their own primers. It's not out of the realm of possible for people to do on their own. But you do need to have some knowledge of the chemistry.
FYI, most modern non-corrosive primers are a combination of Lead Nitrate, Lead Hypophosphite, Nitrocellulose, fine glass (or silica) powder, and aluminum powder for magnums. The addition of some water during manufacture causes the Lead Hypophosphite and Lead Nitrate to react and form Lead Nitratohypophosphite.
Where I live, for fun target shooting, I have resorted to large pistol primers both standard and magnum for my plinking in larg rifle cartridges , they work fine with some precautions such as, primer hight, also pistol primers are supposed to be slightly softer due to pistol fining pin systems, I have had no issues, no miss fires , hang fires , premature firings or pierced primers out of hundreds of light to 80% loads! It saves my very limited stock of LRP for hunting loads. Was told by two of our local gun store owner's CCI and Remington are not accepting further orders of primers for 2022 (this is in Canada).
The powder manufacturers (and the primer manufacturers too, I presume) are currently producing "at capacity." The problem is that they do not sell to the retailers like "Midway USA" or "Powder Valley" or "Ballistic Powder." They sell to wholesale distributors who are either selling only to warehouse-sized hoarders who are willing to pay more, or they are maintaining the inventory in their own warehouses as an investment. In the current market environment, wholesalers delivering to retailers is very much a "Not Done" thing!
Where did you get your information?