You're on a roll lately with these vids!! Love it. Still waiting on my new 6.5 grendel vids. When they coming man?! I gave you ten bucks about a year ago. I think that's totally worth hours and hours of your labor plus all the money to actually load everything.
JRB all the vids are fantastic with lots of useful information. You present the videos in a clear format with great clear camera angles with good audio. All the time it takes to Prep, then reload, buy the components, the research you do, set up and film everything, then edit and upload is a lot of work and doesn't go unnoticed. THUMBS UP! Best reloading channel on you tube for sure. The regularly scheduled videos should really boost your subscriber count to the numbers your channel deserves. With test like this there are so many variables that everybody has an opinion on why something happen or didn't happen to their favorite primer, powder, brass, bullet, etc. taking some of the variables out IMO may help, like weight sorting everything (bullets, brass, primers, powder charge etc.) that way when a flyer or something goes weird it's easier to point to the difference in brand of primers. I know seating at 2.260 you get less jump to the lands and one would generally think that's probably gonna be better accuracy, (and it normally is, depending on bullet design) but like the one other poster mentioned seating this bullet in the cannelure eliminated the occasional flyer for him, that has been my experience as well, I too think this bullet was designed to be loaded in the cannelure.(especially if you're going to put any kind of crimp on it) I like the idea of shooting the CCI's first next time as I believe the groups opening up were purely because of heat. The Suppressor could also be contributing to an occasional factor as well. Looking forward to the rest of the testing and hopping you do a video with Bobs' bullets and Vihtavuori powders. But again if you don't change a thing, keep rocking on, the videos are great just the way they are!
Just found your channel and I love it! Really like the use of charts on this one to illustrate the variation in primers. I also really appreciate the unbiased comparison, not favoring one product over another, not trying to sell anything, just letting things play out as they really do and not making any excuses if they don't. Keep up the good work.
Johnny! Thank you for your efforts doing all this great content. You know, every time I change components, I make a ladder +/- my desired load, and most of the time I get same results by little bit different powder charge. Every primer actually shifts my load differently.
From a novice perspective (many years later), I dont know, it seems like your best groups were the earlier ones. And also that 30min cooldown seemed to help so it looks like maybe barrel heat caused the ladder groups to open up. I have been using in my 6.5CR, cci 450's since I cant get anything else and I'm using Accurate 2700 which is a faster powder than I wanted to use, again because of the supply issues. It turns some very decent groups with my 147gr ELDM bullet. All of these together scream that it shouldn't be shooting well, but it does. hot days cold days don't matter...it's crazy, I know. Great videos. I love watching the channel!
Good test but perhaps doing these test with a bolt action .223 might give completely different results. I know for me when I conduct test on my ammo I do it with my AR and my bolt action. The bolt action for me is always more accurate. I use Winchester WSR and CCI 400 for .223 using cfe223. Almost always less than an inch groupings with an occasion flyer here and there. I guess we have to decide if we are testing the ammo or your gun. This was an awesome video extremely useful please keep them coming. I hope I don't come off as anything other than a true fan and helpful.
Johnny as an old infantry fart I would love to have your knowledge, equipment and certainly your grouping's but hey I don't shoot in competition. But love to watch young men like you with such a passion for excellence!
Differing opinions on why your groups open out as rounds/groups are fired. I would put my money on the barrel being very hot with the last groups. Granted it's a pain in the arse, but could you not shoot 1 round from each batch of 5's, then start again when you have covered all the primers in this case. And do the same again and again, until all the rounds are fired.? You have an ammo box, so it shouldn't be difficult. Expecting to shoot consistent groups from a cool barrel and then from a smokingley hot barrel is not going to be any good, when you testing different types of reloading materials out. There's just too much inconsistancy in the temperture of the barrel/gun. Having said that, thanks for sharing the videos, very enjoyable to watch...
I am a 223/556 NUT. CCI are my go to primer on most of my calibers. BUT not with the 223. Single shot rifle, bolt rifle and AR I am convinced ALMOST always got with 7 1/2 primer, most often 335.
A can of worms got opened when you started testing primers. I can say 25g of H335 with cheap bullets works good for me too. There's a lot working against having accuracy in an AR. Violent feeding that can damage rounds, cheap bullets, heat from all the groups, bullet jump, recoil from a lighter rifle than a heavy bolt gun. I'd think you could do better with a front bag though. It almost looks like you are flinching as you pull the trigger and the bipod gets loaded a bit. Always isolate the trigger pull from your grip. I had ignition problems with H335 in the cold with Wolf primers that were not real magnums. I thought your data ruled out the CCI 41 for accuracy work and SB and WIN weren't too bad. The 41 might be the ticket in the cold in a cold barrel.
In my experience, and watching your results from first groups to last, your barrel heat was causing this, plus it's a ar15, gets hot quick. I'd wait 20 minutes between groups. Love your videos, keep it up.
Lyman calls for a small rifle magnum primer. This surprised me until I found out why. A tech told me that the floating firing pin design of the ar will hit with enough force to dent a soft primer. They are concerned that it has the potential for a slam fire without the bolt being locked up. They recommend only using primers with thicker or harder cup material. Magnum, Winchester, mil spec, or benchrest primers only for ar and clones.
The rifle is grouping much better with a cold barrel. That is the only consistency I see. shoot a few random shots and check the barrel with a temperature gun and try to maintain that temperature to print groups.
bad showing by Winchester, but as you say, more data would be good...appreciate you doing this test though...I don't even have 7 brands of primers on hand...I don't think I've ever had that many...
Thanks for the video. Started reloading a couple of years ago. Great info. For 223, been using Winchester WSR and CCI No 400 primers. Wondered about how primers compare..well here it is. Thanks again.
So WTF stands for 'what the flier?' right? Good video Johnny, lots of work to do all that testing I appreciate it. It causes me to speculate and think about different combinations, which is a good thing. Keep up the good work you're almost half way through August;).
Just a thought. A 5 shot sample size is really small for statistical analysis. Shooting 1,000 is not realistic. It is realistic for what we are doing... Fun from shooting. One way to perhaps better review the data is throw out the high number & the Low number and focus the data on the "Three Best". In golf they get Mulligan's & a personal Handicap to adjust their golf score. It would be interesting to see the data if only the three best shots were used. You can rationalize this by thinking back to how many times you have looked at your shot grouping and you knew the flier was " Just me ". Did you weigh your bullets to verify exact same weight ? Even then your powder charges and bullet weights are only +/- 0.1 of a grain. So you can have fluctuations in chamber pressure you just cannot control.
Watching this February of 2021... screw you Johnny. Screw you... for having all those primers. ;) My day will come! Very informative video, thanks for the upload.
Watching today....2/2/21. I hear $20.00 / 1000. That was first. Next, I'm thinking we'd be GLAD to find primers....ANY primers...powder.... projectiles.... still enjoyed the video. Like a trip down memory lane.
Hey Johnny I was curious how well that new white oaks barrel holds up, I have one those - stoner barrels and after 10 shots the dam thing gets very hot, I hate that barrel. So I was curious if the white oaks does the same, I'm looking into replacing it with the white oaks so I'm just curious on your feed back about the barrel heat. Thanks grounds28
These are such informative videos. I've always tried to stick to the primer called out in the manual but I really wanted to try something like this. Thanks for doing this series. BTW, I just doubled my Patreon monthly, not much just going from $5/month to $10/month..it's not much but I wanted to say thanks!
Hey man, loving all the content, so much great info. I had a suggestion for another series for the future. Looks like you already found a great 55 gr. budget options, how about a search for 62,69...ect options. I know at the very least prvi and Hornady make some .08 62's. Have a good one!
Well Sir, if you're concerned about barrel warming up and shooter fatigue... why not try what the "Optimum Charge Weight" guys do and shoot 1-st round of load 1, 2-round from load 2, 3-rd shot from load 3, etc, so you spread out shooter error, shooter fatigue, barrel warm up, and copper fouling accross all groups instead of wandering if the CCI-450 was simply in the worst situation because of the before mentioned factors.
Using Bobs bullets, 24.1gr of Ramshot Tac, CCI 400 Primers, (c.o.a.l) 2.215" is giving me 0.376" 5 shot groups out of 2 savage axis's (22" barrels w/ 1/9 twist). Bullet seating depths made a huge difference for me and removed the occasional flyer. I will be using a chrono this weekeng and will also try combinations in my AR's finally. Thank You for your videos and time JRB :)
How about doing a load development for each primer to give them a fair chance. one load may not be the best for all primers from a load development point of view.changing primers is much like changing charges in a development. There may be differences in consistencies, but certainly there will be significant differences in added energy. I will bet that a squib test with a very light bullet and no powder will show variation in how far into the barrel the bullet is driven. Not a suggestion, just a thought. I predicted the result before seeing the shootout.
great video been waiting for this very helpful. keep em comming! for what it's worth I have similar results after 15-20 shots. .75" at first then opens up to 2" ,barrel just gets hot and groups open up. 18" barrel, 55gr, 25.2 arcomp, 400 CCI primers.
The amount of primer compound that gets put into those primers can sometime very quite a bit so if you don't measure your primers to see which ones are heavy and which ones are light you might get a couple of funky primers that will open up your groups hugely because it will either start the charge with more force or less. You need to verify your primer weights and when you're testing primers make sure all the primers from CC I weigh the same all the primers Winchester weigh the same and also record which primers have huge variations in weight because their production process might be sloppy and that'll open up your groups.
Your videos are awesome. I’m hooked! The last shot 12” flier is a real cliff hanger. Did you ever find out why? Crazy, scary thought..could a brass cleaning/ tumbling pin have ended up stuck to the case inner wall? Did you run the borescope through the silencer?
27 grns. Win 748, CCI 400, Hornady 53grn hpbt Match......9 shots .410 group....yeah, I called a flier when I mashed the trigger....opened it up to a little more than an inch....but I called it...lol...
I did a quick regression (best fit) from your AR-comp data, excluding the 450 data (with epic flyer). Theh r-squared is only 34.7%, meaning nearly 2/3rds of the group size variation is not explained by velocity SD. If you account for the small sample size (6 primers, excluding 450), it appears that SD is nearly meaningless in terms of explaining accuracy. Interesting. If SD isn't critical to accuracy, then it raises the question of what is, right?
I see it all the time and am convinced there is not much relationship between 100 yard groups and SD. Here's my question: Load #1 shoots .5 moa groups at 100 yards and has an SD of 20 fps. Load #2 shoots 1 moa groups at 100 yards and has an SD of 5 fps. At what distance does the 1 moa load perform better than the .5 moa load? Is it within 1,000 yards?
That could be determined, but it would require more information, defined in statistical terms. For example, how confident must we be in the answer? 90% 99%? And overall group size doesn't tell us about the dispersion within the group like "mean radius" does. We'd need to express the group size in terms of some level of confidence. Mean radius is 50% confidence. But that just means more likely than not, we'd probably want like 95% confidence or something. It would require a really tedious experiment to produce likely inconclusive data, because the collection of a sufficient sample size means that we introduce more variation into the data (weather, barrel temp, ammo temp, etc) and defeats the purpose of the larger sample: reducing uncertainty. I think it's far from certain that the 1 MOA load in your example with 20fps SD would *ever* outperform the half-MOA load because the BC variation is unknown. It's entirely possible for the SDs measured at the muzzle to all but disappear, or radically skew, or even INVERT when measured at 100y or 1000y. The SDs at the barrel capture just the variation in primer, powder, neck tension, and all the little geometry differences. The SDs measured downrange capture all that PLUS the variation in BC and in air density/viscosity (yes, air density varies slightly even from muzzle to 100y, never mind 1000y.) We've all seen the weather maps with the pressure and density bars showing the change in density. On a smaller scale, that happens locally too. Neighbor's swimming pool produces locally cooler and more humid air near the pool, for example-- that's higher density air. Most of the time, that stuff is too insignificant to matter. But sometimes it might. Discovering what does and when is the bedeviling challenge of this whole shooting and loading hobby. Thanks for such an awesome channel man. I just got my first press (a MEC Marksman) and I love it.
Johnny's Reloading Bench The bottom line is that once the 1 MOA group leaves the barrel, there is no magic force that is going to make it strike tighter at 1000 yards save for random wind.
Justin Hohn Sadly, IMO, no matter how many shots we take to attain that 95% 'statistical confidence', it is that 5% that didn't hit the bad guy at 1000 yards that will change history and that 5% will always be there.
JRB, while a applaud the attempt at the primer test, I would like to offer you some advice for the rerun of this test. Try to remove ALL variables in the testing, hand weigh the powder charges, weigh the brass after cleaning/fireforming/prepping and only use ones you're sure weigh the same, weigh the bullets for same reason, take can off of barrel, preferable use a bolt gun for accuracy/speed test. Remember, you aren't necessarily looking for the primer that gives the highest speed, you want the primer with the lowest Standard Deviation, AND smallest groups! Was a good video, but the execution of the test needs to be looked at so that as many variables are removed as possible to get the data to represent the primers as the variable and not anything else :)
I tend towards the notion that something is going on with that scope. Those groups just do not make sense. Out of all the primer testing I’ve performed with both small and large primers in handguns and rifles I’ve never seen such dramatic differences in group sizes. I’ve never used br or 450 or s&b. I’ve only ever used Winchester-wlr, wsr, - federal-200,&205 - cci 200,&400. I’ve seen some cartridge/rifle combinations that definitely preferred certain primers but I’ve never seen more than an inch in group size from primer variance in a given load at 100 yards. Hmm? Did you ever get it sorted out?
Do you clean at all in the video? Pretty important easy variable that could have played a huge part in your results. In your first line you shoot you can watch the groups pretty much open up left to right. And you can almost see it as easily in the second round of targets.
Right this minute, I'm having problems with my Winchester Model 70 HV in .223 and my Mossberg MVP 5.56 bolt actions. Factory Federal - American Eagle doesn't like to go off, neither do some of my reloads with CCI primers. But the stuff works in a AR. The test result I wanted to see, was how hard all these primers are.
Interesting video. Loads of bacon did a similar video on primers. It's made me consider doing my own primer test on my pet 223 and 308 loads. Keep up the good work. PS...I wish you had bolt guns for your testing. My personal preference
Thanks for spending the time, effort and energy into this! I'm wondering though, would a different gun show any different results? Would there be a difference between a bolt action and SA rifle?
Johnny, when you're trying to find small differences you need large samples. Unfortunately, you'd need like 20-round groups to really see what difference a primer makes. Even average and SD values are suspect in small samples. You could have a 20fps SD difference and 50fps average speed difference between 5-rd groups and have them be statistically meaningless because of the small samples.
Not sure ifbyou will see this on an old video, but i accidentally loaded 5 223 loads with win small pistol primers and had interesting results. You should check it out
Shane Rhodes it’s very unlikely because any fouling obstructing the bullet path would be cleared out from the first shot of the day. The suppressor does alter the harmonics, but it generally tightens groups up...at least that’s what I’ve always noticed and I have the same one he does.
On the goofy shot, any chance the bolt was not fully locked into battery ?...A chunk of loose carbon in the suppressor?.....It did happen on lock-back.....velocity was normal, soooo...hmmm, not sure.
Feteasca Alba self employed You do know, that if you're really that lonely, there are dating sites, or maybe try a 976 number. I'm sure someone is willing talk to ya. Hang in there, your life's not that bad.
I would love to know if you have ever experienced this accuracy loss firing SS barrels that frequently back to back. 25-30 rounds should not be over heating things
Really enjoy your video's. I'm trying to find primers for my AR-15. I've got a Dillon XL750 progressive press. I'm just getting started on loading for my Springfield saint victor AR-15 and my Howa model1500 223 rem bolt action. Would you have a recommendation for primers. Thank you
not for nothing johnny but i totally love this channel and have been watching you for years here. but i have to say every time im reloading any caliber and testing weather for hand gun or my ar I never have any luck doing load data in any of my ar15 or .300 blk out that makes any sense at all. ive tested every coal with every power and even small pistol primers vs small magnun primers with the same results with those occasional flyers just out of nowhere, since just buying a cheap bolt action mvp mosburg with a 24 in barrel varmit can i now see what really works. im just at the point that any mil spec chamber that will shoot anything that chambers in it just will never give any good load data for me at this point. im sure ill be blasted for this but im always testing for best results as you do and always blame my guns before my hand loads.
Here in 2022, would love to see 308 load testing with pistol primers. Can find pistol primers all day long and can find small rifle but no large rifle. I've done some load testing myself with pistol primers for groups and was Optimistic there is potential. I never would have thought of doing this 6 months ago but Desperate times call for desperate measures.
Small pistol primers are hard to find here in ND, just bought some today at Natchez shooters supply online. $96 for 1000 + shipping+ hazmat fee = $145 total. Been waiting about 2 years to get some!
wouldnt it be a better test to start each grouping with the same barrel temp? So allowing the barrel to cool between each groups to a designated temp then shooting again?
Hey man. Love your videos. Can you tell me if you keep this data in spreadsheet format (google sheets, etc)? I don’t always have time to watch through your videos but the data is very valuable. It would help me a lot if I could access the data to crunch some numbers for my workup
I typically load and shoot my AR15 in .223 Rem, using CFE223, 26.9 grains, using CCI #400 small rifle primers, and sometimes using CCI # 450 small rifle magnum primers, and Everglade 55gr bullets, just a nice plinking load. Sometimes it is hard to find any Small Rifle Primers at my local stores. Can I substitute Small Pistol #500 or Small Pistol Magnum #550 primers safely? I would imagine they will work, but since the cup is thinner, would they be pierced by an AR15 platform? Johnny, maybe you can make a video discussing this?
I wonder if you have a tight barrel. My .223 Bench gun has a tight barrel and will shoot really good for 12 shots only. Then if I clean it the accuracy comes right back. The only way I got around this is to use CFE 223. Just a thought.
If I recall from your previous videos you just re-barreled. Clearly something is working loose on your rifle. Time to check the piston gas rings, gas tube alignment, (both ends), bolt carrier keys, gas block etc. The sound of the last round was not good. Pretty sure you will figure it out. Good Luck
Nice . Just picked up some federal to try. Do you get a kick back when we buy something using your Amazon link? If so put a franklin arsenal magnet for wet tumbling .
Johnny, Are you keeping a natural point of AIM? are you subconsciously muscling the rifle over to the next target making the rifle shoot in that direction while releasing the shot. I'm just trying to help and not trying to put down your marksmanship skills. There is no real Muscle memory only skeletal support. Most bench rest guys never touch their rifle, under recoil it will just slide on the bags because the stock is engineered that way. Maybe I shouldn't say anything because I sound like a dirtbag..
Thor's Axe777 if you are referring to the shots being to the right of the aiming point, i believe it is on purpose to not destroy the aiming point as well as obscure the writing on the target.
One thing about shooting prone is you don't want to muscle the rifle on target, this causes the rifle to shoot in that direction under the jump of recoil (horizontal stringing) from left to right if you are a right-hand shooter. Many cross fires happen in High power because a shooter does not have a natural point of aim and under recoil his/her position changes. Like I said, (I sound like a know it all dirtbag) however I'm just trying to help. Less the distance, less the impact infraction error. He May have been having lock up problems as well with his bolt and chamber. I have found that I have to squeeze down my cases quite a bit in my wylde chamber so the seat all the way in. Maybe that could be why as well. I know that he wants to retain the information on the target for load info.
I am not shooting with sling support where a proper natural point of aim is very important. I have bag and bipod support, so getting THEM properly positioned so they're naturally on target is what's important. It's part of my routine before every shot and it's one of the reasons I'm so happy with this new rear bag. As for my part of it...I try to support the gun with enough force so that it loads up the bipod a bit and is stable during trigger pull. I use a grip firm enough for the trigger pull but loose enough to impart as little influence on the gun as possible. A free recoiling 6ppc benchrest rifle has a 2 oz trigger that can be touched off without enough force to move the heavy gun. A 3.5 lbs trigger in an AR is another story. You MUST firmly support the gun because that much force will move the gun off target otherwise. A 7 or 8 lbs milspec trigger would require a whole different technique with more force applied to both the gun and grip to overcome the trigger pull. There just aren't any 5 minute shooting lessons that can cover all scenarios.
I'm thinking its barrel temp affecting the accuracy. It would be interesting to see the same test with 15 min intervals between each shot. Maybe you could get by with 10 minutes. Great vid as always... That last shot in last group is a mystery for sure!
Yeah, guess that would be kinda crazy after you do the math and see what the numbers look like! Just a thought.. It will be interesting to see how all this turns out.
You don't need MORE data, you need BETTER data. Stick a thermocouple to the barrel and let the barrel cool to the same temp before launching the next shot. Don't let the ammo get hot in the chamber-- block off your gas if you can and manually cycle like a bolt action. Shoot indoors if possible to rule out wind. For charting, some box-and-whisker plots would be useful to illustrate.
Last shot was a baffle strike for sure. I've had bullets just kiss the baffles and completely clear the end cap. You will notice a slight out of round baffle opening.
There was a winchester in the upper group and a cci 450 in the lower group that didn't make it onto the paper..seems moral of the story, to me, is never pay the premium for bench rest primers
That absolutely has to be a baffle strike at least a very lite strike. Looks tom e the heat in the barrel was the killer not the primers. Need to let the gun cool completely in between.
So I'm kinda confused just getting into 223 reload I know the military has crimps you remove have federal brass it seems like almost all my primer pockets needs swaged its super tough almost impossible without damaging primer to get new primers in any idea what the deal is
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The best reloading personality on UA-cam and doesn’t have the following he deserves. This guy is far and away my favorite
I gotta be honest, I'm friggin fascinated by all these reloading tests! Keep'em coming I love every single one!
Absolutely fantastic work! Thank you so very much for sharing your experience and knowledge with us! Have a wonderful day my brother.
Man I love your videos. You make it very entertaining (seriously cracks me up) but also very informative, meticulous, and data driven. Keep it up!
Johnny, everything your doing the month of August has been just awesome. I love the compare videos. Keep up the great work! Take care.
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You're on a roll lately with these vids!! Love it.
Still waiting on my new 6.5 grendel vids. When they coming man?! I gave you ten bucks about a year ago. I think that's totally worth hours and hours of your labor plus all the money to actually load everything.
JRB all the vids are fantastic with lots of useful information. You present the videos in a clear format with great clear camera angles with good audio. All the time it takes to Prep, then reload, buy the components, the research you do, set up and film everything, then edit and upload is a lot of work and doesn't go unnoticed. THUMBS UP! Best reloading channel on you tube for sure.
The regularly scheduled videos should really boost your subscriber count to the numbers your channel deserves.
With test like this there are so many variables that everybody has an opinion on why something happen or didn't happen to their favorite primer, powder, brass, bullet, etc. taking some of the variables out IMO may help, like weight sorting everything (bullets, brass, primers, powder charge etc.) that way when a flyer or something goes weird it's easier to point to the difference in brand of primers. I know seating at 2.260 you get less jump to the lands and one would generally think that's probably gonna be better accuracy, (and it normally is, depending on bullet design) but like the one other poster mentioned seating this bullet in the cannelure eliminated the occasional flyer for him, that has been my experience as well, I too think this bullet was designed to be loaded in the cannelure.(especially if you're going to put any kind of crimp on it)
I like the idea of shooting the CCI's first next time as I believe the groups opening up were purely because of heat. The Suppressor could also be contributing to an occasional factor as well. Looking forward to the rest of the testing and hopping you do a video with Bobs' bullets and Vihtavuori powders.
But again if you don't change a thing, keep rocking on, the videos are great just the way they are!
This is a much needed series and I'm looking forward to the 300 primers. Thanks Johnny!
Just found your channel and I love it! Really like the use of charts on this one to illustrate the variation in primers. I also really appreciate the unbiased comparison, not favoring one product over another, not trying to sell anything, just letting things play out as they really do and not making any excuses if they don't. Keep up the good work.
stumbled upon this video and man do i miss those primer prices! lol
Right? I heard 20$ for a thousand and was like ah yeah the good old days.
Great work as usual, Johnny. Primers is something we all take for granted.
Johnny! Thank you for your efforts doing all this great content.
You know, every time I change components, I make a ladder +/- my desired load, and most of the time I get same results by little bit different powder charge. Every primer actually shifts my load differently.
From a novice perspective (many years later), I dont know, it seems like your best groups were the earlier ones. And also that 30min cooldown seemed to help so it looks like maybe barrel heat caused the ladder groups to open up. I have been using in my 6.5CR, cci 450's since I cant get anything else and I'm using Accurate 2700 which is a faster powder than I wanted to use, again because of the supply issues. It turns some very decent groups with my 147gr ELDM bullet. All of these together scream that it shouldn't be shooting well, but it does. hot days cold days don't matter...it's crazy, I know. Great videos. I love watching the channel!
Good test but perhaps doing these test with a bolt action .223 might give completely different results. I know for me when I conduct test on my ammo I do it with my AR and my bolt action. The bolt action for me is always more accurate. I use Winchester WSR and CCI 400 for .223 using cfe223. Almost always less than an inch groupings with an occasion flyer here and there. I guess we have to decide if we are testing the ammo or your gun. This was an awesome video extremely useful please keep them coming. I hope I don't come off as anything other than a true fan and helpful.
I think you discovered the same thing I did. If you want accuracy, step 1, walk away from the AR.
Thanks for doing this brother. CCI 41 I use a lot. 👍
Thank you. It was in time for guests.
Very useful in my case. The video deals exactly with the primer issues I am struggling with. Thank you.
Have to say I'm a bit surprised to not see the Remington 7-1/2 primers included here. Among competition and benchrest shooters, they are very popular.
Hot enough for ball powder and thicker cups for AR use.
Johnny as an old infantry fart I would love to have your knowledge, equipment and certainly your grouping's but hey I don't shoot in competition. But love to watch young men like you with such a passion for excellence!
Differing opinions on why your groups open out as rounds/groups are fired. I would put my money on the barrel being very hot with the last groups. Granted it's a pain in the arse, but could you not shoot 1 round from each batch of 5's, then start again when you have covered all the primers in this case. And do the same again and again, until all the rounds are fired.? You have an ammo box, so it shouldn't be difficult. Expecting to shoot consistent groups from a cool barrel and then from a smokingley hot barrel is not going to be any good, when you testing different types of reloading materials out. There's just too much inconsistancy in the temperture of the barrel/gun.
Having said that, thanks for sharing the videos, very enjoyable to watch...
I am a 223/556 NUT. CCI are my go to primer on most of my calibers. BUT not with the 223. Single shot rifle, bolt rifle and AR I am convinced ALMOST always got with 7 1/2 primer, most often 335.
could you do a 7 1/2 primer with different powders including 335? Thank You You are a legend among the ACTUAL shooters.
Thanks for the videos. Just getting into reloading..low cost is key.
"Lee"
A can of worms got opened when you started testing primers. I can say 25g of H335 with cheap bullets works good for me too.
There's a lot working against having accuracy in an AR. Violent feeding that can damage rounds, cheap bullets, heat from all the groups, bullet jump, recoil from a lighter rifle than a heavy bolt gun. I'd think you could do better with a front bag though. It almost looks like you are flinching as you pull the trigger and the bipod gets loaded a bit. Always isolate the trigger pull from your grip.
I had ignition problems with H335 in the cold with Wolf primers that were not real magnums. I thought your data ruled out the CCI 41 for accuracy work and SB and WIN weren't too bad. The 41 might be the ticket in the cold in a cold barrel.
As per CCI: CCI 41 are magnum primers.
In my experience, and watching your results from first groups to last, your barrel heat was causing this, plus it's a ar15, gets hot quick. I'd wait 20 minutes between groups. Love your videos, keep it up.
Lyman calls for a small rifle magnum primer. This surprised me until I found out why. A tech told me that the floating firing pin design of the ar will hit with enough force to dent a soft primer. They are concerned that it has the potential for a slam fire without the bolt being locked up. They recommend only using primers with thicker or harder cup material. Magnum, Winchester, mil spec, or benchrest primers only for ar and clones.
The rifle is grouping much better with a cold barrel. That is the only consistency I see. shoot a few random shots and check the barrel with a temperature gun and try to maintain that temperature to print groups.
bad showing by Winchester, but as you say, more data would be good...appreciate you doing this test though...I don't even have 7 brands of primers on hand...I don't think I've ever had that many...
FortuneCookie45LC love you FortuneCookie45
Thanks for the video. Started reloading a couple of years ago. Great info. For 223, been using Winchester WSR and CCI No 400 primers. Wondered about how primers compare..well here it is. Thanks again.
The only man I know, that can claim he shot the leg off a cricket at 100 yard's! KEEP ON ROCKIN IT JOHNNY!!!...
Good video. you should give the sizes and cup thickness on each primer. Some are better for loose primer pockets and light hammer strikes.
So WTF stands for 'what the flier?' right? Good video Johnny, lots of work to do all that testing I appreciate it. It causes me to speculate and think about different combinations, which is a good thing. Keep up the good work you're almost half way through August;).
I love these early videos
Lucas Gardner it's great to wake up to fresh reloading videos in the morning.
NYC Reloader , I agree it's almost as good to waking up to go to the range
NYC Reloader waking up? At the time these come out, I've already been up for 3 hours.
homiegali . What can I say I am not an early bird. Especially on weekends
Just a thought.
A 5 shot sample size is really small for statistical analysis. Shooting 1,000 is not realistic. It is realistic for what we are doing... Fun from shooting.
One way to perhaps better review the data is throw out the high number & the Low number and focus the data on the "Three Best". In golf they get Mulligan's & a personal Handicap to adjust their golf score. It would be interesting to see the data if only the three best shots were used.
You can rationalize this by thinking back to how many times you have looked at your shot grouping and you knew the flier was " Just me ". Did you weigh your bullets to verify exact same weight ? Even then your powder charges and bullet weights are only +/- 0.1 of a grain. So you can have fluctuations in chamber pressure you just cannot control.
Watching this February of 2021... screw you Johnny. Screw you... for having all those primers. ;) My day will come! Very informative video, thanks for the upload.
Ps. I like the way you presented it. Well done. Thank you
Watching today....2/2/21. I hear $20.00 / 1000. That was first. Next, I'm thinking we'd be GLAD to find primers....ANY primers...powder.... projectiles.... still enjoyed the video. Like a trip down memory lane.
Hey Johnny I was curious how well that new white oaks barrel holds up, I have one those - stoner barrels and after 10 shots the dam thing gets very hot, I hate that barrel. So I was curious if the white oaks does the same, I'm looking into replacing it with the white oaks so I'm just curious on your feed back about the barrel heat. Thanks grounds28
These are such informative videos. I've always tried to stick to the primer called out in the manual but I really wanted to try something like this. Thanks for doing this series. BTW, I just doubled my Patreon monthly, not much just going from $5/month to $10/month..it's not much but I wanted to say thanks!
Thanks, texpat. That's huge and I really appreciate it!
Hey man, loving all the content, so much great info. I had a suggestion for another series for the future. Looks like you already found a great 55 gr. budget options, how about a search for 62,69...ect options. I know at the very least prvi and Hornady make some .08 62's. Have a good one!
Well Sir, if you're concerned about barrel warming up and shooter fatigue... why not try what the "Optimum Charge Weight" guys do and shoot 1-st round of load 1, 2-round from load 2, 3-rd shot from load 3, etc, so you spread out shooter error, shooter fatigue, barrel warm up, and copper fouling accross all groups instead of wandering if the CCI-450 was simply in the worst situation because of the before mentioned factors.
That's what I'm planning for the next video.
Using Bobs bullets, 24.1gr of Ramshot Tac, CCI 400 Primers, (c.o.a.l) 2.215" is giving me 0.376" 5 shot groups out of 2 savage axis's (22" barrels w/ 1/9 twist). Bullet seating depths made a huge difference for me and removed the occasional flyer. I will be using a chrono this weekeng and will also try combinations in my AR's finally. Thank You for your videos and time JRB :)
JeffMOA I am a true tac believer. The price of powder is excellent and gets excellent accuracy
How about doing a load development for each primer to give them a fair chance. one load may not be the best for all primers from a load development point of view.changing primers is much like changing charges in a development. There may be differences in consistencies, but certainly there will be significant differences in added energy. I will bet that a squib test with a very light bullet and no powder will show variation in how far into the barrel the bullet is driven. Not a suggestion, just a thought. I predicted the result before seeing the shootout.
great video been waiting for this very helpful. keep em comming!
for what it's worth I have similar results after 15-20 shots. .75" at first then opens up to 2" ,barrel just gets hot and groups open up.
18" barrel, 55gr, 25.2 arcomp, 400 CCI primers.
The amount of primer compound that gets put into those primers can sometime very quite a bit so if you don't measure your primers to see which ones are heavy and which ones are light you might get a couple of funky primers that will open up your groups hugely because it will either start the charge with more force or less.
You need to verify your primer weights and when you're testing primers make sure all the primers from CC I weigh the same all the primers Winchester weigh the same and also record which primers have huge variations in weight because their production process might be sloppy and that'll open up your groups.
Your videos are awesome. I’m hooked!
The last shot 12” flier is a real cliff hanger. Did you ever find out why?
Crazy, scary thought..could a brass cleaning/ tumbling pin have ended up stuck to the case inner wall? Did you run the borescope through the silencer?
27 grns. Win 748, CCI 400, Hornady 53grn hpbt Match......9 shots .410 group....yeah, I called a flier when I mashed the trigger....opened it up to a little more than an inch....but I called it...lol...
It's increadible how much of a differance the primer makes. Glad I bought 1000 winchesters.
I did a quick regression (best fit) from your AR-comp data, excluding the 450 data (with epic flyer). Theh r-squared is only 34.7%, meaning nearly 2/3rds of the group size variation is not explained by velocity SD. If you account for the small sample size (6 primers, excluding 450), it appears that SD is nearly meaningless in terms of explaining accuracy.
Interesting. If SD isn't critical to accuracy, then it raises the question of what is, right?
I see it all the time and am convinced there is not much relationship between 100 yard groups and SD.
Here's my question:
Load #1 shoots .5 moa groups at 100 yards and has an SD of 20 fps.
Load #2 shoots 1 moa groups at 100 yards and has an SD of 5 fps.
At what distance does the 1 moa load perform better than the .5 moa load? Is it within 1,000 yards?
That could be determined, but it would require more information, defined in statistical terms. For example, how confident must we be in the answer? 90% 99%? And overall group size doesn't tell us about the dispersion within the group like "mean radius" does. We'd need to express the group size in terms of some level of confidence. Mean radius is 50% confidence. But that just means more likely than not, we'd probably want like 95% confidence or something. It would require a really tedious experiment to produce likely inconclusive data, because the collection of a sufficient sample size means that we introduce more variation into the data (weather, barrel temp, ammo temp, etc) and defeats the purpose of the larger sample: reducing uncertainty.
I think it's far from certain that the 1 MOA load in your example with 20fps SD would *ever* outperform the half-MOA load because the BC variation is unknown. It's entirely possible for the SDs measured at the muzzle to all but disappear, or radically skew, or even INVERT when measured at 100y or 1000y. The SDs at the barrel capture just the variation in primer, powder, neck tension, and all the little geometry differences. The SDs measured downrange capture all that PLUS the variation in BC and in air density/viscosity (yes, air density varies slightly even from muzzle to 100y, never mind 1000y.)
We've all seen the weather maps with the pressure and density bars showing the change in density. On a smaller scale, that happens locally too. Neighbor's swimming pool produces locally cooler and more humid air near the pool, for example-- that's higher density air.
Most of the time, that stuff is too insignificant to matter. But sometimes it might. Discovering what does and when is the bedeviling challenge of this whole shooting and loading hobby.
Thanks for such an awesome channel man. I just got my first press (a MEC Marksman) and I love it.
Johnny's Reloading Bench The bottom line is that once the 1 MOA group leaves the barrel, there is no magic force that is going to make it strike tighter at 1000 yards save for random wind.
Justin Hohn Sadly, IMO, no matter how many shots we take to attain that 95% 'statistical confidence', it is that 5% that didn't hit the bad guy at 1000 yards that will change history and that 5% will always be there.
Why is it only thr 5% that misses that changes history and not the 95% that hits? JFK anyone?
JRB, while a applaud the attempt at the primer test, I would like to offer you some advice for the rerun of this test.
Try to remove ALL variables in the testing, hand weigh the powder charges, weigh the brass after cleaning/fireforming/prepping and only use ones you're sure weigh the same, weigh the bullets for same reason, take can off of barrel, preferable use a bolt gun for accuracy/speed test.
Remember, you aren't necessarily looking for the primer that gives the highest speed, you want the primer with the lowest Standard Deviation, AND smallest groups!
Was a good video, but the execution of the test needs to be looked at so that as many variables are removed as possible to get the data to represent the primers as the variable and not anything else :)
I tend towards the notion that something is going on with that scope. Those groups just do not make sense. Out of all the primer testing I’ve performed with both small and large primers in handguns and rifles I’ve never seen such dramatic differences in group sizes. I’ve never used br or 450 or s&b. I’ve only ever used Winchester-wlr, wsr, - federal-200,&205 - cci 200,&400. I’ve seen some cartridge/rifle combinations that definitely preferred certain primers but I’ve never seen more than an inch in group size from primer variance in a given load at 100 yards. Hmm? Did you ever get it sorted out?
Do you clean at all in the video? Pretty important easy variable that could have played a huge part in your results. In your first line you shoot you can watch the groups pretty much open up left to right. And you can almost see it as easily in the second round of targets.
CCI primers are nickel plated and the hardest to set off. I cant get any of them to go off in BLR 308. Federals are the softest and 80% go off.
Right this minute, I'm having problems with my Winchester Model 70 HV in .223 and my Mossberg MVP 5.56 bolt actions. Factory Federal - American Eagle doesn't like to go off, neither do some of my reloads with CCI primers. But the stuff works in a AR. The test result I wanted to see, was how hard all these primers are.
Interesting video. Loads of bacon did a similar video on primers. It's made me consider doing my own primer test on my pet 223 and 308 loads. Keep up the good work. PS...I wish you had bolt guns for your testing. My personal preference
Have you considered ditching the bipod and using a front rest ? 🙃👍
Thanks for spending the time, effort and energy into this! I'm wondering though, would a different gun show any different results? Would there be a difference between a bolt action and SA rifle?
i only use s&b after speedtests at 6grainAO loads with h&n125grain for308. SD was only max6.And gave a plus 10fts. For 25% casefilling it rocked..
and clean your surpressor,less chance for afterburn and gasabsorbing.
Johnny, when you're trying to find small differences you need large samples. Unfortunately, you'd need like 20-round groups to really see what difference a primer makes.
Even average and SD values are suspect in small samples. You could have a 20fps SD difference and 50fps average speed difference between 5-rd groups and have them be statistically meaningless because of the small samples.
Not sure ifbyou will see this on an old video, but i accidentally loaded 5 223 loads with win small pistol primers and had interesting results. You should check it out
Wonder if fouling from the suppressor is throwing the groups off
Shane Rhodes it’s very unlikely because any fouling obstructing the bullet path would be cleared out from the first shot of the day. The suppressor does alter the harmonics, but it generally tightens groups up...at least that’s what I’ve always noticed and I have the same one he does.
On the goofy shot, any chance the bolt was not fully locked into battery ?...A chunk of loose carbon in the suppressor?.....It did happen on lock-back.....velocity was normal, soooo...hmmm, not sure.
MrTrekFanDan I was kinda thinking bolt lock up issue also.
I was thinking that as well.
Feteasca Alba self employed
Troll, what I meant was , maybe the battery inside the bolt died.
Duh.
Feteasca Alba self employed
You do know, that if you're really that lonely, there are dating sites, or maybe try a 976 number.
I'm sure someone is willing talk to ya.
Hang in there, your life's not that bad.
I would love to know if you have ever experienced this accuracy loss firing SS barrels that frequently back to back. 25-30 rounds should not be over heating things
Really enjoy your video's. I'm trying to find primers for my AR-15. I've got a Dillon XL750 progressive press. I'm just getting started on loading for my Springfield saint victor AR-15 and my Howa model1500 223 rem bolt action. Would you have a recommendation for primers. Thank you
why do you ignore the winchester with the h335? it had the lowest sd, right?
not for nothing johnny but i totally love this channel and have been watching you for years here. but i have to say every time im reloading any caliber and testing weather for hand gun or my ar I never have any luck doing load data in any of my ar15 or .300 blk out that makes any sense at all. ive tested every coal with every power and even small pistol primers vs small magnun primers with the same results with those occasional flyers just out of nowhere, since just buying a cheap bolt action mvp mosburg with a 24 in barrel varmit can i now see what really works. im just at the point that any mil spec chamber that will shoot anything that chambers in it just will never give any good load data for me at this point. im sure ill be blasted for this but im always testing for best results as you do and always blame my guns before my hand loads.
What kind of press are u using brother, also.. your videos are amazing and u single handedly get me through my loading questions
Nice over and under 'real time' format bro.
Tough to find primers these days, hoping I will be happy with CCI BR2 AR Comp SMK77HPBT
Here in 2022, would love to see 308 load testing with pistol primers. Can find pistol primers all day long and can find small rifle but no large rifle. I've done some load testing myself with pistol primers for groups and was Optimistic there is potential. I never would have thought of doing this 6 months ago but Desperate times call for desperate measures.
Small pistol primers are hard to find here in ND, just bought some today at Natchez shooters supply online. $96 for 1000 + shipping+ hazmat fee = $145 total. Been waiting about 2 years to get some!
I see the links are removed. Curious what scope do you use? Thanks. Great videos
braaaa......rock on!!!!! Any pics of that 8 pointer from last year?????
wouldnt it be a better test to start each grouping with the same barrel temp? So allowing the barrel to cool between each groups to a designated temp then shooting again?
Hey man. Love your videos. Can you tell me if you keep this data in spreadsheet format (google sheets, etc)? I don’t always have time to watch through your videos but the data is very valuable. It would help me a lot if I could access the data to crunch some numbers for my workup
I typically load and shoot my AR15 in .223 Rem, using CFE223, 26.9 grains, using CCI #400 small rifle primers, and sometimes using CCI # 450 small rifle magnum primers, and Everglade 55gr bullets, just a nice plinking load. Sometimes it is hard to find any Small Rifle Primers at my local stores. Can I substitute Small Pistol #500 or Small Pistol Magnum #550 primers safely? I would imagine they will work, but since the cup is thinner, would they be pierced by an AR15 platform? Johnny, maybe you can make a video discussing this?
I wonder if you have a tight barrel. My .223 Bench gun has a tight barrel and will shoot really good for 12 shots only. Then if I clean it the accuracy comes right back. The only way I got around this is to use CFE 223. Just a thought.
If I recall from your previous videos you just re-barreled. Clearly something is working loose on your rifle. Time to check the piston gas rings, gas tube alignment, (both ends), bolt carrier keys, gas block etc. The sound of the last round was not good. Pretty sure you will figure it out.
Good Luck
Nice . Just picked up some federal to try. Do you get a kick back when we buy something using your Amazon link? If so put a franklin arsenal magnet for wet tumbling .
Johnny, Are you keeping a natural point of AIM? are you subconsciously muscling the rifle over to the next target making the rifle shoot in that direction while releasing the shot. I'm just trying to help and not trying to put down your marksmanship skills. There is no real Muscle memory only skeletal support. Most bench rest guys never touch their rifle, under recoil it will just slide on the bags because the stock is engineered that way. Maybe I shouldn't say anything because I sound like a dirtbag..
Thor's Axe777 if you are referring to the shots being to the right of the aiming point, i believe it is on purpose to not destroy the aiming point as well as obscure the writing on the target.
One thing about shooting prone is you don't want to muscle the rifle on target, this causes the rifle to shoot in that direction under the jump of recoil (horizontal stringing) from left to right if you are a right-hand shooter. Many cross fires happen in High power because a shooter does not have a natural point of aim and under recoil his/her position changes. Like I said, (I sound like a know it all dirtbag) however I'm just trying to help. Less the distance, less the impact infraction error. He May have been having lock up problems as well with his bolt and chamber. I have found that I have to squeeze down my cases quite a bit in my wylde chamber so the seat all the way in. Maybe that could be why as well. I know that he wants to retain the information on the target for load info.
I am not shooting with sling support where a proper natural point of aim is very important. I have bag and bipod support, so getting THEM properly positioned so they're naturally on target is what's important. It's part of my routine before every shot and it's one of the reasons I'm so happy with this new rear bag. As for my part of it...I try to support the gun with enough force so that it loads up the bipod a bit and is stable during trigger pull. I use a grip firm enough for the trigger pull but loose enough to impart as little influence on the gun as possible.
A free recoiling 6ppc benchrest rifle has a 2 oz trigger that can be touched off without enough force to move the heavy gun. A 3.5 lbs trigger in an AR is another story. You MUST firmly support the gun because that much force will move the gun off target otherwise. A 7 or 8 lbs milspec trigger would require a whole different technique with more force applied to both the gun and grip to overcome the trigger pull. There just aren't any 5 minute shooting lessons that can cover all scenarios.
I’m definitely going with Cci 41….cuz it’s the only thing I could find…and pay way too much for.
Could we see .25-45 Sharps?
The s&b primers are great primers Winchester are good too . cci and federal are ok
I'm thinking its barrel temp affecting the accuracy. It would be interesting to see the same test with 15 min intervals between each shot. Maybe you could get by with 10 minutes. Great vid as always... That last shot in last group is a mystery for sure!
This was a 70 round test. 15 minute intervals would mean 17.5 hours on the range.
You need to hire underlings for this!
Yeah, guess that would be kinda crazy after you do the math and see what the numbers look like! Just a thought.. It will be interesting to see how all this turns out.
Did u drop your powder amount before using the cci 450’s? Vs the non magnums
You don't need MORE data, you need BETTER data. Stick a thermocouple to the barrel and let the barrel cool to the same temp before launching the next shot. Don't let the ammo get hot in the chamber-- block off your gas if you can and manually cycle like a bolt action.
Shoot indoors if possible to rule out wind.
For charting, some box-and-whisker plots would be useful to illustrate.
I pretty much use only BR4 primers for High Power Competition. And that having the biggest group kind of scared me.
Well thought out test. Really helped.
I dont know if anyone's called it out, it looks like the first string of Win primers only had 4 shots on paper... That third shot @7:27
It hit in same hole as 1st shot. You can see it grows in size, ever so slightly
Just wondering where the 3rd shot on h335 and wsr primer went? 7:27 in the video.
Last shot was a baffle strike for sure. I've had bullets just kiss the baffles and completely clear the end cap. You will notice a slight out of round baffle opening.
Is that the cheaper scale that you reviewed about a month ago? How is it holding up?? I forget the name of it
There was a winchester in the upper group and a cci 450 in the lower group that didn't make it onto the paper..seems moral of the story, to me, is never pay the premium for bench rest primers
That absolutely has to be a baffle strike at least a very lite strike. Looks tom e the heat in the barrel was the killer not the primers. Need to let the gun cool completely in between.
Loving these videos keep up the great work!
here im watching this and zero in in stock
So I'm kinda confused just getting into 223 reload I know the military has crimps you remove have federal brass it seems like almost all my primer pockets needs swaged its super tough almost impossible without damaging primer to get new primers in any idea what the deal is
Are there any real significant differences (for accuracy) between the brands of dies? All of mine are Lee Pacesetter dies.
John , what NO REMINGTON primers.
Hi great video
Just wondering what type of cover is on your supressor
No love for the WIN? It wasnt consistent on both groups but with the smallest group and smallest sd across all i wouldnt expect it to be ignored...