Using that much of an established motorcycle rotating assembly is an under appreciated cheat code for engines at the bleeding edge of power to weight. Much like diesels being selected for heavy duty due to high efficiency, when you can throw highway cruising fuel economy more or less out the window the high revving production bike engines establish the opposite end of the power to weight spectrum on the mass market. The V8 config gives you a great balance of scaling that tech appropriately for a 4-wheel application while also copying as much of BMW/Kawasaki/Suzuki’s homework as possible. Super logical, very well thought through, excellent illustration of the economics part of engineering completing the picture. Seeing a cost comparison of running this engine vs running the Honda in a race program would be very cool, please throw that in the notebook for a couple of years down the road!
@@martinfisker7438 as always, boost is the answer I guess! The H2 platform is a good example, that engine likely weighs less than 200lb including its transmission and the supercharger, and is putting out 310hp. There’s not much need for boost on bikes since you’re looping already with just N/A torque at pretty high speeds. Your “most bikes aren’t even 1hp/1lb” point really illustrates what an accomplishment this will be if TSC makes it happen
@@martinfisker7438 I wouldn't say insane but not going to just sneeze and make that power either. A stock 2023 S100RR is already in the neighborhood on 177-180 RWHP. I've seen them hit 195-198HP with the right mods and tune (pretty much "FBO" - full bolt ons as the cool kids are saying these days) and of course there are some dyno queens out there in the 200+ RWHP range. The full bike weighs just under or right around 200KG as well, so figure the engine (or in their case just the heads and few other rotating assembly bits) allow them a lot of flexibility as the top commenter says.
I’m currently building an e36 GTR silhouette with double wishbone suspension. Should make some decent footage for hillclimb monsters in 2025 . I plan to have it in thunder saloons and possibly Quick 60 if all goes to plan. ( similar to James clays / Georg Plasa) .
In case anyone is wondering, the mysterious hypercar manufacturer that is having an engine developed by Prototipo - and which he doesn't want to mention - is Czinger, and they are using the turbocharged V8 engine in the 21C.
Man, those are mind blowing numbers! When you stated the target weight, performance and rpms, I had a feeling it was going to be a motorcycle based V8 turbo. I own a sportsbike, and have ridden the S1000RR. I still feel grateful that we are able to buy a essentially 1:1 hp:kg vehicle that is affordable, road legal, reliable enough to be ridden everyday and has reasonable enough maintenance intervals and costs.
These new s1000rr engines are amazing. They feel buttery smooth and are deceivingly quick. I test rode the bike and ended up going with a KTM 1290r instead, as it felt faster at slower speeds (on the road). I think the BMW based engine is a great proposition for the mountain. Good luck !
@@james5553 BMW reignited the HP wars amongst literbikes back in 2012 with the gen 1 S1000RR. Looking back, its kind of surprising they got it so right in their very first attempt. Given that their last (unreleased to the public) attempt was them trying to build a boxer twin superbike. BMW will finally claim the elusive WSBK title this year with Toprak's talent, 12 years after being in the running for the best production superbike.
Using the Motec software with Assetto Corsa is such a great tool! I'm currently trying to build my proficiency in AiM's RaceStudio software, but both Motec and AiM software can work with AC, and do essentially the same thing. I'm pretty sure you need to use mods to work with the Motec software, but AiM will work "out of the box". For anybody interested in learning how to do race engineering, this is one of the easiest ways to get into it and build some valuable skills. And using it as a driver-in-the-loop simulator is cool, I'm glad to hear that it correlates pretty well. I guess I need to start learning how to input my designs into assetto corsa. Also, this build just keeps getting crazier while being one of the most grounded and thought out series I've seen in a long time.
I think this is very cool and I will continue to watch with great interest. Most teams have a stick up their arse about what brand of tyres they're running, and then there's teams/individuals like yourself that just give us the whole show. Greatly appreciated.
Stephan Papadakis runs the nitrous for their drift cars off the ECU, obviously this isn't the same level of usage but a conversation may spark some ideas.
A friend of mine works at Prototipo and I have toured their factory. I will hit him up to see what I can help with on yours, if anything, or at least see it in person before it ships :-) neat.
ha, I was right! Great to hear you are using Prototipo's S1000rr based Synergy v8. Def the engine I would use. I dream of making a 3L V12 engine based off these heads.
What about using the Heads of the BMW K1600? Probably won't rev that high but if you have to build a custom bottom end anyways, you could reduce the stroke a bit
@@TheAlfvomMond because the M/S1000rr heads are highest performing mass produced heads you can get, and is where most of the R&D in an engine is. Whilst I want to make my own engine, I know I won't be able to do better than this head design. I'd either cut and weld two together to make 6 cylinder long, or scan and duplicate. Block would have to be custom billet or cast.
I also predicted a turbocharged Synergy V8. The sneak peek at the previous video gave away the motorcycle heads, and I know that RPE V8's are not that designed for turbo designs, though another Wolf chassis user Dan Novembre decided to go that route because he already has one in his car. The turbo setup and the heads did not look like an IndyCar engine, which was an educated guess for some.
And thats just so awesome that a frickn Pikes Peak champion uses Assetto Corsa as a developing tool for his actual race car is just mind blowing and speaks tons of the quality of the simulation!!
For the turbos exhaust management I would use E-gates you can make some tricks to reduce turbo lag, and It's very easy to do boost by gear you don't want a have a 1000hp at 1r gear.
Robin I really appreciate the thinking that is going into this project and your willingness to share your insights. And in my own small way I would like to support the project. Are you going to sell Merch (I liked the T shirt you wore in part one ) or start a Patreon?
He has also done 200+ mph in the G/FCC class, setting a new record with the same 2000cc engine, using what is essentially a stock bodied Nissan NX coupe with an aerodynamic nose cone.
Regarding NA engines at altitude, it reminded me of how some WW1 fighter engines were "overcompressed" There were both elegant solutions with no user error and inelegant solutions that relied on the pilot not running the engine too hard until higher up. I have no idea if it could be miniaturized but it's an idea, most likely not worth following but it's a thing.
I would love a video on building custom models in AC. Or if you know of existing sources for that info. But I’m interested in the nuances of building models for the purpose of Driver-in-the-loop type sim testing, which is probably not a common topic in AC car model building tutorials elsewhere.
Wouldn’t a billet block aluminum rod K24 (similar to the “4-piston-racing” guys run) hit the targets you mention? Some of these engines end up being 2.6L and making 300-400hp N/A, and some of the purely drag-oriented combinations make 2000+HP when turbocharged……the lag of a large single turbo could be mitigated in many ways but, nitrous would be the easier than making bespoke rocket style anti lag system, and given NO2 would be used in small quantities / intermittently (to get up to the boost target quickly), the “freezing” situation would likely be fully mitigated…. I enjoy your videos; keep up the good work.
Billet blocks are heavy and we are already at the torque limit of the gearbox. The K24 can't be spun as much so we actually lose power if we went that route
@@thesendyclub That makes sense; I must have not caught you were at the torque limit of your gearbox.....more displacement and more power at similar RPM's to the K20 would exasperate torque issue greatly (even not considering the weight / or maintenance of an aluminum rod engine that is spun well past 25-m/s piston speed).
Thank you! You are very generous with your knowledge and experience. Even though the scope of what you're doing is far beyond what I hope to do, I learn a lot just following your journey with your new build.
Thanks for the video. I use a Suzuki M13A for my experimentail helicopter. Similar to the hayabusa, but stronger and better for endurance. Small displacement engines are far better than massive engines.
LT3 medium turbos, all aluminum good breather, turbo friendly, shallow deck height parts everywhere and people know about American LS engines and plenty of help! And cheap!
@The Sendy Club I was thinking I should post a link to this video series to you the other day but thought I should re-watch it before wasting your precious time, only to hear the presenter say in the first few moments of the lecture 'a problem not experienced at ground level (unless you are developing a Pikes peak racer)' at which point, I decided it was a must; The Secret Horsepower Race: Western Front Fighter Engine Development - Institution of Mechanical Engineers - IMechE and also an older lecture might interest you with it's references to some modern F1 systems as developed during WW2; The Secret History of Fighter Aircraft Engine Development in WW2 - Institution of Mechanical Engineers - IMechE
Bike stuff is just mega though... But can't dismiss aer and there experience in designing turbo endurance engines... The "Mazda" based Daytona prototype does like 950 unrestricted....sub 20 psi ...
A car with one of those NA high revving small capacity manual v8s is my dream project. Great video listing all the options and decision factors. Also didn't know about the Canopy software or that Assetto corsa is that viable for projects like these.
So interested to learn more about not only the details of the engine (hard to believe the whole package can be under 100kg), but also I would love to know more about how you "create your car" model in Assetto Corsa! I'm currently building an odd car, and I would love to be able to drive it in AC, ahead of when I can actually have it on the road and track.
I’m curious if you looked at the Italtecnica 3.0L Pre Chamber V6. It would probably have been out of the price range but it did also seem to have been a engine that fit your criteria (light, high power, reliable) as it was intended for Le Mans Hypercar when they still planned for over 1000hp in those cars.
Revs too low, requiring a much bigger gearbox. Also, not sure if they ever designed it for a true 1000 hp. Hypercar class is 650 right now and with their extra headroom, it was designed for 750ish with quite high complexity/exotic cost
Did you look into jet-skis? They run 1200-1400 hp. Another option not mentioned. Elmer racing. They builds light weight high power engines for drag and circuit racing.
thank you a lot for answering my question, I definitely related to what you said and still think its very helpful to atleast know im not alone or terrible at managing my projects🤣🤣I feel slow when i dont hit my target deadlines but you're right, I just need to be hard on myself with a healthy mindset!
@@chadkent1241 Not that it matters given what @muxiku said, but compared to the 2, 3, and 4-rotor setups that most commonly show up when people mention rotary engines, V8s take up a ton more space even without turbos getting involved. Rotaries are likely fighting an uphill battle to make the same sort of power as engines that are much, _much_ larger. It's kind of like how Honda 4-bangers CAN make 800hp, but will struggle to sustain that power level reliably (a reason Robin himself gave for why the Wolf's K20 was a hassle). I'm not saying a 6-rotor setup with two parallel rows of 3 rotors would necessarily be reliable enough to be viable, but one of the few 6-rotors that exists is already an 800hp engine without forced induction. I'm not so sure the power disadvantage is quite so large when one throws more rotors at the problem.
@@chadkent1241Absurd, baseless statement that falls apart under the slightest scrutiny. You are throwing out an entire engine type on your feelings. For a useful statement, you could say "a 13B will never compete with an LS" and you might be correct. Say "production based" and you may be correct. But a lightly tuned 13B would beat a flathead Ford hands down, immediately and categorically disproving your unqualified statement.
@@mitchell-wallisforce7859 You can make 1000hp reliably with 3 Rotors, rotarys in general are quite reliable in the short term is in the long run that piston engines last longer.
I feel your pain, I'm shooting for low emissions and wanted to avoid turbos but it turns out I would need a 5 liter V6 (running ultra lean so needs to pump a lot of air). At the end of the day it's just easier and cheaper to squeeze the air.
Tried this idea already 434 cubic inch on twin turbo (Gale banks) on methanol 1400 hp at sea level Was totally undriveable Had to turn it down Half shaft failure first yr Next year gearbox needed attention When the throttle stuck That was the end of that programme Leanord Arnold was the person behind the project Gale Banks on turbos and Paul Dallenbach driver
With a good electric blower, you could easily use a h2r kaw , delete the factory blower and run something like AlexLTDLX is . This setup at 6lbs will outperform 12 on turbo and 14 on a blower.
Have you considered charge cooling via water/meth injection in addition to intercoolers, as I understand it it's relatively light for the intake cooling it provides
So many factors to consider, literally thousands of variables. Apart from 2D cad drawings for laser cut parts all my designs are in my head and physical Mockup/ prototypes . Kinda old school but works for me in a fashion. 😵💫. Integration is the key for lightweight, along with simplicity and a dash of thinking out the box . Nice video and all interesting stuff. 👍🇬🇧
My idea was to use liquid methane or similar for fuel. The cold temperature would be used to densify the incoming air. Octane of methane is above 110. Reduced need for engine cooling. Humidity in intake would ice it up, maybe a dual path intake and it swaps back and forth paths every minute or so and runs de-icing cycle. Whi knows
Gaseous fuels displace a lot of air from the intake, so power tends to take a hit unless you go direct injection. Ford Australia did this (direct injection of gaseous fuel) on their LPG Barras, they made slightly more power than the port injected petrol model.
Where would the intercooler go? You'd do air to air or water to air? I'm just thinking about all the added weight and complexity of water but water does allow for easy placement of heat exchanger radiators basically anywhere you want then you just run the water hoses along the car
Did you consider the Elmer Racing engines? They seem pretty powerful for their size, and they are pretty well tested. The Thor seems a fantastic option.
Enjoying the videos. I know you haven't talked about the aero yet, but when you get to that would love to hear your thoughts on the idea of fan suction like in the Speirling car. You see such huge front and rear wings on the Pikes peak cars because no rules on it and the air gets thinner as you rise so you lose the effect. Has anyone considered fans for downforce? It seems like it would be a big benefit at Pikes Peak because you could increase the boost as the air gets thinner, and you get the same amount of downforce whether you are going slow or fast. Big variation of speed in the corners because so many different types of corners. Would love to hear your thoughts.
the kind of fan car like the old f1's would have problems due to ride height being higher due to the bumpy roads, but maybe if doing something like the overly aggressive difusor of the T50 then it might make sense.
Sid you consider an alloy in line 6 cylinder like BMW’s S58 with a larger turbo and dry sump? Must weigh more than 100kg but bot much and well good for 1,000hp. More reliable than a 2.6litre bike based V8. Perfect primary and secondary balance. You could even use nitrous on the top of the mountain to keep the power up.
What if you went with a supercharger instead of a turbocharger, with a variable drive, to compensate for altitude, and maintain a consistent charge density / engine power?
i dont know if this is possible but would a 1000hp turbo 3 rotor be an idea? also i hear turbosmart have come out with some really lightweight turbos worth looking at.
You’re definitely singing my song! For years now I’ve been extremely annoyed at watching IndyCars drive around tracks at wide open throttle. I want to start a new series called “1-to-1” the American way: 1500 lbs and 1500 HP. I want to see near 300 mph on oval straights with NO chance of getting through corners without heavy braking. Then, keeping the tires happy (another engineering nightmare) to do it for 300-500 miles. I approached a leading team member about the above and was treated like I had a third eye. He said you’ll never get funding; you’ll never get drivers to commit and you’ll never get sponsorship. I think he was wrong. Make it the premier championship series in the U.S. and lets see what happens. Robin, with your inate engineering background and racer’s viewpoint, you could be the conduit to give us something very special. LET’S GOOOOOOOO.
Add an electric supercharger and a lithium battery big enough to power it all the way to the top. 2 kWh lithium polymer should do it (15 kg weight). Instant boost on demand. No exhaust restriction. Controllable boost/torque (can have constant max torque like an electric car).
@@thesendyclub An electric motor can drive the centrifugal compressor instead of a turbine. You get more useful output per PSI because there's no scavenging og engine power through exhaust or crank if a battery powers the electric motor separately.
An aluminum based 3 rotor is 160 pounds dressed with turbos or turbo is still less then 200 pounds it's a tight package and on pump 93 gas can be reliable to 1000 bhp on e fuel 1400bhp. And will just be a tick above your torque limit.
You've got to figure out if your horsepower limited or traction limited. Hillclimbs are about traction out of corners. Being able to keep your foot up it is paramount. I believe 4wd is a must. You have to have road compliance to get traction as without huge wings you won't get it. Slow speed corners won't benefit from big wing. So a broad power curve able to run out when needed. Brakes must be an issue unless they are coupled like 4wd. We run a billet 2437cc punching out 749hp at only 6500rpm. Trying to get on top of wastegate issues to get to 1200hp at the hubs. E85 fuel at 35lbs boost. Nothing exotic. Two sets injectors etc.
One thing I would love to know is what stopped you simply fitting a larger turbo and turning the power up on the honda motor, we know in extreme drag racing cases they can make 1600bhp, so running around 850bhp on the mountain would be possible and the k24 would give you enough capacity, was the concern from head sealing of 200-250bhp per cylinder for extended period of time, or simply the weight of the engine?
I'm surprised you could find non-F1 engines that fill in the requirement! Although the limit of HP/cylinder, or HP/displacement is made by rules, prototyping is hard. Hope it goes well as most people involved in your project look committed.
I owned and raced a Pro Mazda with a renesis for a couple of seasons. Very high maintenance but a beautiful engine to drive. They make too much heat for Pikes
why turbo and not procharger less weight than two turbos and less heat in the engine compartment and you can also do boost by gear with the turbosmart cold gates
Procharger has big parasitic losses and isn't as adaptable to the altitude change up the mountain. We originally wen't with a supercharger in 2018, before learning pretty quick it wouldn't work for the mountain.
I gotta ask.....wouldn't a 4-rotor rotary engine also match these requirements? I suppose the time required to build and prove out such an engine would be a problem for the program, but it would be cool to see and hear!
@@Shadowboost Oh... I thought rotarys are light weight compared to a lot of car engines? But I don't know the actual weight. I guess he is talking a lot about motorcyle derived engines....
@@fredygump5578 rotaries are heavy for car engines, comparatively. The 787B 4 rotor is 400 pounds and that's naturally aspirated without forced induction. For comparison, the Porsche 962 engine that it was competing against weighed 385 pounds and that was with turbos, more power under the curve and still lighter
Good lad, man after my own heart. Struggles I’ve had with managers wanting plans to the Nth degree when you just need to get on with it!! I also do appreciate a bit of analogue, conceptual design. I, personally, hate computers. A necessary evil! Engine choice, spot on. Keep up the good work.
Using that much of an established motorcycle rotating assembly is an under appreciated cheat code for engines at the bleeding edge of power to weight. Much like diesels being selected for heavy duty due to high efficiency, when you can throw highway cruising fuel economy more or less out the window the high revving production bike engines establish the opposite end of the power to weight spectrum on the mass market. The V8 config gives you a great balance of scaling that tech appropriately for a 4-wheel application while also copying as much of BMW/Kawasaki/Suzuki’s homework as possible. Super logical, very well thought through, excellent illustration of the economics part of engineering completing the picture.
Seeing a cost comparison of running this engine vs running the Honda in a race program would be very cool, please throw that in the notebook for a couple of years down the road!
That's an insane target. None of my motorcycle engines reach that 1hp/1lbs figure- let alone the whole bike
@@martinfisker7438 as always, boost is the answer I guess! The H2 platform is a good example, that engine likely weighs less than 200lb including its transmission and the supercharger, and is putting out 310hp. There’s not much need for boost on bikes since you’re looping already with just N/A torque at pretty high speeds.
Your “most bikes aren’t even 1hp/1lb” point really illustrates what an accomplishment this will be if TSC makes it happen
@@needanameprojectsboost cures all plenty of hyabusa making 800-1000 hp
100% this!
@@martinfisker7438 I wouldn't say insane but not going to just sneeze and make that power either. A stock 2023 S100RR is already in the neighborhood on 177-180 RWHP. I've seen them hit 195-198HP with the right mods and tune (pretty much "FBO" - full bolt ons as the cool kids are saying these days) and of course there are some dyno queens out there in the 200+ RWHP range. The full bike weighs just under or right around 200KG as well, so figure the engine (or in their case just the heads and few other rotating assembly bits) allow them a lot of flexibility as the top commenter says.
Gotta love the whole talk about "sensible" right after detailing absurd stats 😄
its always nice catching someone you fangirl over in the wild =)
I’m currently building an e36 GTR silhouette with double wishbone suspension. Should make some decent footage for hillclimb monsters in 2025 .
I plan to have it in thunder saloons and possibly Quick 60 if all goes to plan. ( similar to James clays / Georg Plasa) .
Alright, sounds proper interesting. Where can we see more of it?@@newagetemplar6100
@@newagetemplar6100A lot of work, look forward to seeing it on the hills
In case anyone is wondering, the mysterious hypercar manufacturer that is having an engine developed by Prototipo - and which he doesn't want to mention - is Czinger, and they are using the turbocharged V8 engine in the 21C.
I called it!! Figured as much when I saw the Czinger 21c specs and saw nobody wanted to raise their hand on being responsible for that engine
Man, those are mind blowing numbers! When you stated the target weight, performance and rpms, I had a feeling it was going to be a motorcycle based V8 turbo.
I own a sportsbike, and have ridden the S1000RR. I still feel grateful that we are able to buy a essentially 1:1 hp:kg vehicle that is affordable, road legal, reliable enough to be ridden everyday and has reasonable enough maintenance intervals and costs.
These new s1000rr engines are amazing. They feel buttery smooth and are deceivingly quick. I test rode the bike and ended up going with a KTM 1290r instead, as it felt faster at slower speeds (on the road). I think the BMW based engine is a great proposition for the mountain. Good luck !
@@james5553 BMW reignited the HP wars amongst literbikes back in 2012 with the gen 1 S1000RR. Looking back, its kind of surprising they got it so right in their very first attempt. Given that their last (unreleased to the public) attempt was them trying to build a boxer twin superbike. BMW will finally claim the elusive WSBK title this year with Toprak's talent, 12 years after being in the running for the best production superbike.
Using the Motec software with Assetto Corsa is such a great tool! I'm currently trying to build my proficiency in AiM's RaceStudio software, but both Motec and AiM software can work with AC, and do essentially the same thing. I'm pretty sure you need to use mods to work with the Motec software, but AiM will work "out of the box". For anybody interested in learning how to do race engineering, this is one of the easiest ways to get into it and build some valuable skills. And using it as a driver-in-the-loop simulator is cool, I'm glad to hear that it correlates pretty well. I guess I need to start learning how to input my designs into assetto corsa.
Also, this build just keeps getting crazier while being one of the most grounded and thought out series I've seen in a long time.
I was about to go to bed. Now I'm not. Wtf
This has gotta be my favorite upcoming build. The ideas and reasoning are simple and brilliant
I think this is very cool and I will continue to watch with great interest. Most teams have a stick up their arse about what brand of tyres they're running, and then there's teams/individuals like yourself that just give us the whole show. Greatly appreciated.
Hope one day that Assetto Corsa mod can be released. Would be awesome to drive this car in a sim
Will do my best to make that happen!
The K48 twin turbo by Neutron Engines was what I was hoping for. But I don’t know when that will actually exist.
I was thinking about that one too, but I think it'd be way too heavy. Even a single K24 is already at his target weight.
@@Programentalist it’s such a fine line for weight to HP to max revs.
Hopefully in a few years
Going to be too heavy anyways
@@Programentalist turbo billet k24 will do his power as well
Stephan Papadakis runs the nitrous for their drift cars off the ECU, obviously this isn't the same level of usage but a conversation may spark some ideas.
I have chatted to him about this, small squirts vs continuous spray is a very different use case
A friend of mine works at Prototipo and I have toured their factory. I will hit him up to see what I can help with on yours, if anything, or at least see it in person before it ships :-) neat.
ha, I was right! Great to hear you are using Prototipo's S1000rr based Synergy v8. Def the engine I would use. I dream of making a 3L V12 engine based off these heads.
I would just go full GMA Cosworth at that point. Heavy, but probably takes boost no problem. That engine is rated for well over 50k miles
@@Shadowboost I'd be doing it just for the love of make my own thing.
What about using the Heads of the BMW K1600? Probably won't rev that high but if you have to build a custom bottom end anyways, you could reduce the stroke a bit
@@TheAlfvomMond because the M/S1000rr heads are highest performing mass produced heads you can get, and is where most of the R&D in an engine is. Whilst I want to make my own engine, I know I won't be able to do better than this head design. I'd either cut and weld two together to make 6 cylinder long, or scan and duplicate. Block would have to be custom billet or cast.
I also predicted a turbocharged Synergy V8. The sneak peek at the previous video gave away the motorcycle heads, and I know that RPE V8's are not that designed for turbo designs, though another Wolf chassis user Dan Novembre decided to go that route because he already has one in his car. The turbo setup and the heads did not look like an IndyCar engine, which was an educated guess for some.
There are drifters that spray nitrous the whole time, but their runtime is also limited.
Yep
And thats just so awesome that a frickn Pikes Peak champion uses Assetto Corsa as a developing tool for his actual race car is just mind blowing and speaks tons of the quality of the simulation!!
Love the series and I’m really excited about the engine choice coming from motorcycle racing. Looking forward to follow along on the journey!
For the turbos exhaust management I would use E-gates you can make some tricks to reduce turbo lag, and It's very easy to do boost by gear you don't want a have a 1000hp at 1r gear.
Already doing that since 2019!
Robin I really appreciate the thinking that is going into this project and your willingness to share your insights. And in my own small way I would like to support the project. Are you going to sell Merch (I liked the T shirt you wore in part one ) or start a Patreon?
Merch can be purchased from Mountune USA (link is in the video description). Not sure about a patreon yet
Glad to see synergy getting some more mainstream love.
I enjoy your perspective on race car design. Great stuff.
Been waiting for this video, hell yeah!!!
Very promising and impressive potential. Go for it!
Reg Cook from New Zealand did 260mph in a streamliner with a naturally aspirated 2000cc synergy v8. Great engines.
He has also done 200+ mph in the G/FCC class, setting a new record with the same 2000cc engine, using what is essentially a stock bodied Nissan NX coupe with an aerodynamic nose cone.
rev-x oil supplement to prevent corrosion when running methanol
Steve Morris swears by revX
Regarding NA engines at altitude, it reminded me of how some WW1 fighter engines were "overcompressed" There were both elegant solutions with no user error and inelegant solutions that relied on the pilot not running the engine too hard until higher up. I have no idea if it could be miniaturized but it's an idea, most likely not worth following but it's a thing.
Easily implemented with a drive by wire throttle
We do size everything to run at altitude still. Love that story, thank you for sharing!
I would love a video on building custom models in AC.
Or if you know of existing sources for that info.
But I’m interested in the nuances of building models for the purpose of Driver-in-the-loop type sim testing, which is probably not a common topic in AC car model building tutorials elsewhere.
Noted, I will add this to the video list to-do
I really hope to see the details of the build! Really exciting stuff
love this knowledged technical analysis
Great methods, like the goal setting and all.
Can't wait for the next one.
Wouldn’t a billet block aluminum rod K24 (similar to the “4-piston-racing” guys run) hit the targets you mention? Some of these engines end up being 2.6L and making 300-400hp N/A, and some of the purely drag-oriented combinations make 2000+HP when turbocharged……the lag of a large single turbo could be mitigated in many ways but, nitrous would be the easier than making bespoke rocket style anti lag system, and given NO2 would be used in small quantities / intermittently (to get up to the boost target quickly), the “freezing” situation would likely be fully mitigated….
I enjoy your videos; keep up the good work.
Billet blocks are heavy and we are already at the torque limit of the gearbox. The K24 can't be spun as much so we actually lose power if we went that route
@@thesendyclub That makes sense; I must have not caught you were at the torque limit of your gearbox.....more displacement and more power at similar RPM's to the K20 would exasperate torque issue greatly (even not considering the weight / or maintenance of an aluminum rod engine that is spun well past 25-m/s piston speed).
Thanks for another great vid. I'm already looking forward to the next one!
Thank you! You are very generous with your knowledge and experience. Even though the scope of what you're doing is far beyond what I hope to do, I learn a lot just following your journey with your new build.
Cool! Really looking forward to seeing you race your next car!
Thanks for the video. I use a Suzuki M13A for my experimentail helicopter. Similar to the hayabusa, but stronger and better for endurance. Small displacement engines are far better than massive engines.
Love these videos. Keep going
LT3 medium turbos, all aluminum good breather, turbo friendly, shallow deck height parts everywhere and people know about American LS engines and plenty of help! And cheap!
@The Sendy Club I was thinking I should post a link to this video series to you the other day but thought I should re-watch it before wasting your precious time, only to hear the presenter say in the first few moments of the lecture 'a problem not experienced at ground level (unless you are developing a Pikes peak racer)' at which point, I decided it was a must;
The Secret Horsepower Race: Western Front Fighter Engine Development - Institution of Mechanical Engineers - IMechE
and also an older lecture might interest you with it's references to some modern F1 systems as developed during WW2;
The Secret History of Fighter Aircraft Engine Development in WW2 - Institution of Mechanical Engineers - IMechE
Bike stuff is just mega though... But can't dismiss aer and there experience in designing turbo endurance engines...
The "Mazda" based Daytona prototype does like 950 unrestricted....sub 20 psi ...
Awesome talk.
Yay! Robin on youtube 🙌. Can we inject spicy diesel in that v8? 😂😊
A car with one of those NA high revving small capacity manual v8s is my dream project. Great video listing all the options and decision factors. Also didn't know about the Canopy software or that Assetto corsa is that viable for projects like these.
The Synergy V8 has been in Reg Cooke's land speed cars.
He was also selling a Judd V10.
So interested to learn more about not only the details of the engine (hard to believe the whole package can be under 100kg), but also I would love to know more about how you "create your car" model in Assetto Corsa! I'm currently building an odd car, and I would love to be able to drive it in AC, ahead of when I can actually have it on the road and track.
one of one- hope it works- wish you the best
I’m curious if you looked at the Italtecnica 3.0L Pre Chamber V6. It would probably have been out of the price range but it did also seem to have been a engine that fit your criteria (light, high power, reliable) as it was intended for Le Mans Hypercar when they still planned for over 1000hp in those cars.
Revs too low, requiring a much bigger gearbox. Also, not sure if they ever designed it for a true 1000 hp. Hypercar class is 650 right now and with their extra headroom, it was designed for 750ish with quite high complexity/exotic cost
@@Shadowboost The original Hypercar ruleset had higher power levels and higher weights around 850hp.
Heavy and pricey, very cool tech though!
Love these insights into how you built the race car.
Exciting! Watching!
Great engine, very well packaged.
Did you look into jet-skis?
They run 1200-1400 hp.
Another option not mentioned.
Elmer racing.
They builds light weight high power engines for drag and circuit racing.
looking forward to this
Love these videos! I am interested to hear your thoughts on unsprung aero, and if you've thought about that when designing this car??
thank you a lot for answering my question, I definitely related to what you said and still think its very helpful to atleast know im not alone or terrible at managing my projects🤣🤣I feel slow when i dont hit my target deadlines but you're right, I just need to be hard on myself with a healthy mindset!
The key is to keep moving forward and making sure what you are doing is working towards your goal and not wasting time
Oh man, was hoping for a rotary :)
Rotarys can have amazing power to weight ratio the only problem is they produce a lot of heat and dissipating it on low density air is very difficult.
V8s are more powerful. Period
@@chadkent1241 Not that it matters given what @muxiku said, but compared to the 2, 3, and 4-rotor setups that most commonly show up when people mention rotary engines, V8s take up a ton more space even without turbos getting involved. Rotaries are likely fighting an uphill battle to make the same sort of power as engines that are much, _much_ larger. It's kind of like how Honda 4-bangers CAN make 800hp, but will struggle to sustain that power level reliably (a reason Robin himself gave for why the Wolf's K20 was a hassle).
I'm not saying a 6-rotor setup with two parallel rows of 3 rotors would necessarily be reliable enough to be viable, but one of the few 6-rotors that exists is already an 800hp engine without forced induction. I'm not so sure the power disadvantage is quite so large when one throws more rotors at the problem.
@@chadkent1241Absurd, baseless statement that falls apart under the slightest scrutiny. You are throwing out an entire engine type on your feelings. For a useful statement, you could say "a 13B will never compete with an LS" and you might be correct. Say "production based" and you may be correct. But a lightly tuned 13B would beat a flathead Ford hands down, immediately and categorically disproving your unqualified statement.
@@mitchell-wallisforce7859 You can make 1000hp reliably with 3 Rotors, rotarys in general are quite reliable in the short term is in the long run that piston engines last longer.
I feel your pain, I'm shooting for low emissions and wanted to avoid turbos but it turns out I would need a 5 liter V6 (running ultra lean so needs to pump a lot of air). At the end of the day it's just easier and cheaper to squeeze the air.
Tried this idea already
434 cubic inch on twin turbo (Gale banks) on methanol
1400 hp at sea level
Was totally undriveable Had to turn it down
Half shaft failure first yr
Next year gearbox needed attention
When the throttle stuck
That was the end of that programme
Leanord Arnold was the person behind the project
Gale Banks on turbos and Paul Dallenbach driver
We can't put all that power down without the downforce. All the driveline is being engineered to take the power we make
With a good electric blower, you could easily use a h2r kaw , delete the factory blower and run something like AlexLTDLX is . This setup at 6lbs will outperform 12 on turbo and 14 on a blower.
Have you considered charge cooling via water/meth injection in addition to intercoolers, as I understand it it's relatively light for the intake cooling it provides
Yes, the worry if it stops working mid-run. Sizing the charge cooler correctly seems the best way to go
So many factors to consider, literally thousands of variables. Apart from 2D cad drawings for laser cut parts all my designs are in my head and physical
Mockup/ prototypes .
Kinda old school but works for me in a fashion. 😵💫.
Integration is the key for lightweight, along with simplicity and a dash of thinking out the box .
Nice video and all interesting stuff. 👍🇬🇧
My idea was to use liquid methane or similar for fuel. The cold temperature would be used to densify the incoming air. Octane of methane is above 110. Reduced need for engine cooling. Humidity in intake would ice it up, maybe a dual path intake and it swaps back and forth paths every minute or so and runs de-icing cycle. Whi knows
Gaseous fuels displace a lot of air from the intake, so power tends to take a hit unless you go direct injection.
Ford Australia did this (direct injection of gaseous fuel) on their LPG Barras, they made slightly more power than the port injected petrol model.
Where would the intercooler go? You'd do air to air or water to air? I'm just thinking about all the added weight and complexity of water but water does allow for easy placement of heat exchanger radiators basically anywhere you want then you just run the water hoses along the car
I woud love a video that goes more indepht in the aerodynamics on the car and cfd analyses you did
In the works, I can speak for days on this
@@thesendyclub i woud love to hear for days about this
was there any thought of a 3 rotor? relatively light, small, can sit very low, can spin to and make required numbers
Ryan Falconer sells old Indycar v8s from the 90s. Chevy branded but I think Ilmor built them.
Did you consider the Elmer Racing engines? They seem pretty powerful for their size, and they are pretty well tested. The Thor seems a fantastic option.
Enjoying the videos. I know you haven't talked about the aero yet, but when you get to that would love to hear your thoughts on the idea of fan suction like in the Speirling car. You see such huge front and rear wings on the Pikes peak cars because no rules on it and the air gets thinner as you rise so you lose the effect. Has anyone considered fans for downforce? It seems like it would be a big benefit at Pikes Peak because you could increase the boost as the air gets thinner, and you get the same amount of downforce whether you are going slow or fast. Big variation of speed in the corners because so many different types of corners. Would love to hear your thoughts.
the kind of fan car like the old f1's would have problems due to ride height being higher due to the bumpy roads, but maybe if doing something like the overly aggressive difusor of the T50 then it might make sense.
you should 100% share the wolf's assetto build one day
Sid you consider an alloy in line 6 cylinder like BMW’s S58 with a larger turbo and dry sump? Must weigh more than 100kg but bot much and well good for 1,000hp. More reliable than a 2.6litre bike based V8. Perfect primary and secondary balance. You could even use nitrous on the top of the mountain to keep the power up.
that will end up being double the weight and too long!
@@thesendyclub and too much engine torque for your gearbox
great vid. Have you chatted with Alan Millyard yet?
Next step is 1kw per pound
Euro metrics coming back!!
I wonder is that 4 cylinder Elmer racing engine could have worked
The thor v2 i think thats weight in at 150kg but it 2000bhp in circuit trim.
billet 13b semi PP would hit the targets for weight and power.. if you can afford it
A specific built turbo 3 rotor wankel could be an interesting option
Hopefully if you beat the record you'll be able to build a crazy badass na engine (like the f1 v10) that's under 100kg and go even faster.
Did you consider the Nissan VK V8's? I think they have good results in V8 supercars and LMP3. Might not meet the weight targets though.
Yes, too big and too torquey
1:1 in pounds is pretty nuts. Imagine driving a 2,400hp Mazda Miata 😄
Steve Morris....sleeving three cyl sxs out of Polaris or can am....turbo off course..or triumph three cyl?....1250 cc?....
No replacement for displacement on the mountain! I do love those 3-cyls though. Huge potential
Did you look at the Puma Engineering motorcycle engine ?
What if you went with a supercharger instead of a turbocharger, with a variable drive, to compensate for altitude, and maintain a consistent charge density / engine power?
Would love to see this thing rip around tsukuba or similar small track
That's the plan!
i dont know if this is possible but would a 1000hp turbo 3 rotor be an idea? also i hear turbosmart have come out with some really lightweight turbos worth looking at.
Still heavy, those create a lot of heat also. That's why you don't see many on the mountain
If only the Neutron K48 was finish and tested. Would be a pretty sweet setup. Might be on the heavier side but would smash your hp goals.
You’re definitely singing my song! For years now I’ve been extremely annoyed at watching IndyCars drive around tracks at wide open throttle.
I want to start a new series called “1-to-1” the American way: 1500 lbs and 1500 HP. I want to see near 300 mph on oval straights with NO chance of getting through corners without heavy braking. Then, keeping the tires happy (another engineering nightmare) to do it for 300-500 miles.
I approached a leading team member about the above and was treated like I had a third eye. He said you’ll never get funding; you’ll never get drivers to commit and you’ll never get sponsorship. I think he was wrong. Make it the premier championship series in the U.S. and lets see what happens.
Robin, with your inate engineering background and racer’s viewpoint, you could be the conduit to give us something very special. LET’S GOOOOOOOO.
There's one way to find out!
Add an electric supercharger and a lithium battery big enough to power it all the way to the top. 2 kWh lithium polymer should do it (15 kg weight). Instant boost on demand. No exhaust restriction. Controllable boost/torque (can have constant max torque like an electric car).
This could be used to spool the big turbo
Six lb is 12 on turbo according to AlexLTDLX. He runs the same as when he was pushing 14 on a whipple
@@thesendyclub An electric motor can drive the centrifugal compressor instead of a turbine. You get more useful output per PSI because there's no scavenging og engine power through exhaust or crank if a battery powers the electric motor separately.
Didn't know about these local fellas, might go apply for a job...
An aluminum based 3 rotor is 160 pounds dressed with turbos or turbo is still less then 200 pounds it's a tight package and on pump 93 gas can be reliable to 1000 bhp on e fuel 1400bhp. And will just be a tick above your torque limit.
Mike Patey comes to mind regarding high altitudes and NOS.
You've got to figure out if your horsepower limited or traction limited. Hillclimbs are about traction out of corners. Being able to keep your foot up it is paramount. I believe 4wd is a must. You have to have road compliance to get traction as without huge wings you won't get it. Slow speed corners won't benefit from big wing. So a broad power curve able to run out when needed. Brakes must be an issue unless they are coupled like 4wd. We run a billet 2437cc punching out 749hp at only 6500rpm. Trying to get on top of wastegate issues to get to 1200hp at the hubs. E85 fuel at 35lbs boost. Nothing exotic. Two sets injectors etc.
One thing I would love to know is what stopped you simply fitting a larger turbo and turning the power up on the honda motor, we know in extreme drag racing cases they can make 1600bhp, so running around 850bhp on the mountain would be possible and the k24 would give you enough capacity, was the concern from head sealing of 200-250bhp per cylinder for extended period of time, or simply the weight of the engine?
drag racing is very different to hillclimb for engine stress. K24 would make less power for us as we are torque limited.
Would this car be a good place to use Subaru’s rocket anti-lag system?
Just curious are you familiar with Elmer Racing and their Thor engine?
Yes, it has potential but making that fit in a car like mine is tricky. Gearbox, size etc. Weight is pretty good though, extra 40kg
How does the engine builder tune for the altitude change in a Dyno?
Calculations and then retune on mountain
@@thesendyclub excellent thanks
I'm surprised you could find non-F1 engines that fill in the requirement! Although the limit of HP/cylinder, or HP/displacement is made by rules, prototyping is hard. Hope it goes well as most people involved in your project look committed.
Rob Dahm’s RX7 rotary engine looks like a good thing
Not nitrous but an electric turbo, no exhaust back pressure. AlexLTDLX here on you tube.
You didn't consider turbocharging a Judd V8?
I did, $$$$$$. Ask Ryan Tuerck about rebuilding his V10....
A rotary engine from mazda would be a good shout for lightness and hp targets.
And they have great race reliability. Probably last longer that a comparable piston engines in racing.
I owned and raced a Pro Mazda with a renesis for a couple of seasons. Very high maintenance but a beautiful engine to drive. They make too much heat for Pikes
Did you consider using nitromethane to compensate for altitude?
Yes, that stuff is nasty and makes a bigger mess than the performance it gains
I believe it was actually first made by Synergy Engines in New Zealand and it was made for midgets/speedcars, not sprint cars
why turbo and not procharger less weight than two turbos and less heat in the engine compartment and you can also do boost by gear with the turbosmart cold gates
Procharger has big parasitic losses and isn't as adaptable to the altitude change up the mountain. We originally wen't with a supercharger in 2018, before learning pretty quick it wouldn't work for the mountain.
I gotta ask.....wouldn't a 4-rotor rotary engine also match these requirements? I suppose the time required to build and prove out such an engine would be a problem for the program, but it would be cool to see and hear!
Rob Dahm collab incoming....? ; )
Nope. Rotary is VERY heavy in comparison. Think double the weight
@@Shadowboost Oh... I thought rotarys are light weight compared to a lot of car engines? But I don't know the actual weight. I guess he is talking a lot about motorcyle derived engines....
@@fredygump5578 rotaries are heavy for car engines, comparatively. The 787B 4 rotor is 400 pounds and that's naturally aspirated without forced induction. For comparison, the Porsche 962 engine that it was competing against weighed 385 pounds and that was with turbos, more power under the curve and still lighter
Exstreamly unefficient you'll have to replace the weight in fuel.
Good lad, man after my own heart. Struggles I’ve had with managers wanting plans to the Nth degree when you just need to get on with it!! I also do appreciate a bit of analogue, conceptual design. I, personally, hate computers. A necessary evil!
Engine choice, spot on.
Keep up the good work.
Thanks!