Roy Jenkins and Tony Benn debate : The European Communities membership referendum, 1975 - Panorama
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- Опубліковано 24 вер 2024
- David Dimbleby chairs a debate on whether the UK should vote to remain in the Common Market, between Roy Jenkins of the Yes campaign (Britain In Europe), and Tony Benn of the No campaign (Out into the World), both men were British Labour Party MP's and cabinet ministers under Prime Minister Harold Wilson's March 1974 - April 1976 Labour government. First shown on Monday 02 June 1975.
One of Tony Benn's finest hours, he was spot on.
This should have been air at prime time during the recent Brexit debate. Instead we got the nonsense over whether £350 Million per week was promised to the NHS. Boy have we dumbed-down!!!
cotictimmy---once again, allow me to correct that oft and deliberate false claim of the traitors, that the so-called ''Battle Bus'', made false claims. It CLEARLY stated, that the £350 mil savings, COULD be --NOT WOULD be, spent on the NHS. they could have said --on the Roads, schools, Infrastructure, make your own list. BUT, the NHS was the topic of the moment (still is). If anyone was creating a campaign for Brexit, isn't it obvious that the choice that made the greatest impact, would be the NHS ?? Instead of a large list of priorities in small writing.
That`s it exactly.I have given up explaining ,argueing or justifying against the desperate ,near hysterical mantra like chants of the remain faction."the bus,the bus" "you promised,you promised".It was pretty standard campaign stuff to me,the kind of thing that was business as usual through all my life as parties battled through electoral campaigns.The idea that British voting patterns could ever be changed by a slogan on a bus is ridiculous and not borne out by history.Perhaps if Churchill in 1945 ,at the peak of his Churchillness, had used painted" vote for Winnie "on the side of an omnibus he would have won.
And the EU army is a myth and a fantasy. As of 2018 Merkel, Macron and Junker all talk of the formation of such a force being unleashed on us. As for the £350 million figure, we pay £9 billion per year to be part of a club we have a trade deficite of £67 billion to. Throw in mass open door immigration to 450 million people the UK are better of out of the EU forever.
So right! Well said!
@@MrDaiseymay God, I've said this so many times, but thought I must be missing something, as these people insist we promised it to the NHS. I'm so glad that someone has said the same thing, thank you.
Mr Benn wiped the floor with Eric Morecombe 😊
Two politicians, brilliantly abreast of the nuts and bolts of the issue, debating courteously. A far cry from the intellectual lightweights who vastly over populate the upper reaches of today's politics in the UK. No soundbites required. Human advancement has been considerable since those days, but the quality of politics has severely reversed.
Alexander Stephens so beautifully out, I totally agree with you, how sad it is the way live now, argue the points with mere superficialities but no depth or respect to each other or the rest
My only regret on the morning of 24th June, 2016, was that Tony Benn, the greatest Brexiter of them all, wasn't there to see it.
At least he isn't her to go through the agony of watching democracy be destroyed before our very eyes in Great Britain.
far better quality of Politicians we had then than now..they could debate without descending into sneering and name calling.
They reserved that for the House of Commons.
Such an intelligent debate
Fantastic upload. Wonderful to see two real political titans of the 20th century debating in such a civilised, respectful way. Such a shame so many of the recent referendum debates were so angry and reactionary.
The collapse of political discourse is starkly laid bare by old recordings like this.
The 2 actors here were, but if you watch any public debates from the 60s, 70s & 80s the crowds were far more rowdy than now.
but only by the shit for brains remainer's.
@jwgeezer China and the US have specific trade agreements with the EU. The WTO arrangements are much poorer and it takes a very long time to put new arrangements in place.
How debate was conducted back in the day, far superior to now I am thinking. #GreenLeaves
A fantastic watch for students of history, politics and in my case also as a fan of Tony Benn. A genuinely delightful watch as neither Jenkins nor Benn resort to personal insults.
Tony benn R.I.P.
.
I don't know who you vote for, but I think we can agree that the caliber, integrity, and intellect of MPs has gone way down.
I had the privilege of seeing Tony Benn speak in Hyde Park many, many years ago. An Orator without equal.
My goodness, how far our politics has fallen.
An absolute treasure of a televised document.
I find it hard to believe that programmes of this quality ever existed, a wonderful well fought debate which didn’t treat the running of the country as an entertainment programme. Intelligent thought provoking debate. What has happened to us since then?
We jpined the common market and as Benn aluded to ..politics became depleted and this more irrelevant
Brilliant debate of critical issues concerning membership of the EEC/EU. British citizens should be proud of such top class politicians as Tony Benn and Roy Jenkins. Both made very convincing arguments for/against membership. I have huge respect for Tony Benn and I think the issues he raised back in 1975 came to the fore in Brexit. Both men gave great public service and the light of heaven to them.
Hilary: watch, listen, and learn. RIP Tony Benn, you are sorely missed but even after your death you continue to inspire people to fight for freedom. Thank you so much for posting this Mr. Naylor.
Tony Benn was right about Steel workers, The British steel industry is in the toilet. Along with most British manufacturing in 2020
Two political giants and intellects arguing their viewpoints with respect and courtesy. Both arguments made primarily on the grounds of economic reasoning, and completely without the emotional, hysterical and polarized bullshit that's currently making this country a laughing stock. Most people who voted Remain in the 2016 Referendum aren't snowflake liberals, and most people who voted Brexit aren't racist fuckwits. With the massive influence of social media fanning the hysteria, those who shout the loudest are the ones who are most heard.
When I see intelligent and well thought-out debating like this, it's very hard not to feel nostalgic.
well said! these stereotypes are so insulting and worse; they are lies 98% of the time
What this shows more than anything is what a colossally un-educated nation we have become. Tony Benn and Roy Jenkins are two politicians I’d never vote for, but they stand out like two rolls royces when compared to the short term thinking, fame seekers we have in Westminster today.
Tony Benn was right it's a pity is son don't see it that way
If you look back on this retrospectively then we now know Tony Benn was absolutely spot on with his analysis!
He was wrong in 1975. The common market was a great idea. But after moves for increasing political power in the EU in the early 1990s he was correct.
Time shows truth... Tony Benn you were spot on m8.
Great debate, Benn was right.
@The Truth Oh yes he was
@The Truth Yes certainly was right.
Actually Jenkins was probably right in the short term but Benn was right in the long term. If the EU had remained reasonably static with the arrangements in place in 1975 there would have been no referendum. But with the Maastricht and Lisbon Treaties and the growth from 9 to 28 countries with the clear desire of the Commission to move to a federalised system, the situation changed fundamentally.
@@catinthehat906 But this is for the better not the worse. Or do you disagree ?
I don't think free movement is sustainable, not with the pull factor of the English language, our non contributory benefits system and also factoring in accelerating climate change. The UK (counting Scotland NI and Wales) is the third most densely populated country in Europe behind Belgium and the Netherlands and has seen by far the biggest increase in population in the last 15 years of any EU country. This is in part due to the catastrophic miscalculations of Dustmann and the failure of Blair to bring in transitional controls. I have no objection to a free trade area with zero tariffs and a system for national cooperation, but I think paying billions of pounds for the privilege of losing control of who settles within your national borders is unacceptable.
Tony Benn; the Legend, may he rest in peace, a man of principles for fairness and equality. He was never blown by the political winds and stood ground on his principles.
If only people backed him then, we wouldnt be in this mess.
What do you think of Corbyn ?
@@lewisner I think the media held a very successful campaign against him, exaggerating, disinformation etc. Now we have Boris and this mess we are in, says it all really.
@@suzesiviter6083 I voted Tory for the first time in my life in 12/19 to "get Brexit done". The PLP as it is now is a centre right Blairite party and frankly I don't believe Corbyn's miraculous transformation from Anti EU to "Sort of pro EU" at the same time as he took over a party stuffed full of Blairite Remainers. I think George Galloway summed it up nicely by saying that now we have the Tories in , as soon as we leave the EU we can boot them out. In Labours current form with arch Remainer "Sir" Keir Starmer in charge I will not vote for them.
@@lewisner Yeah many voted Boris for that reason, but he's still delaying it, its a joke now. As for Corbyn, yes big mistake not listening to his traditional voters wishes to get out of the EU. Labour has never been the same party since Tory Blair, lets face it, we have a two party-one party system now, no sensible choice for the people, "democracy Jim, but not as we know it."
He was a Communist ( and therefore a potential traitor )
I never agreed with Tony Benn, but he was a man of great integrity and intelligence, and a superb parliamentarian, as was Roy Jenkins. Modern politicians are a pale imitation.
He was also terrific friends with Enoch John Powell. Also a eurosceptoc pro sovereignty chap
@@SepulchreBritThe Guardian scolded him for going to Mr Powell's funeral, frankly absurd.
I have to give Benn his due here. Brilliant and civil exchange between to lefties who see Europe in a different way.
tubularbill >Roy Jenkins
>Lefty
lol
Incredible debate and high minded. These two men were titans! Benn was erudite but he was in all reality a UK nationalist and a closeted 'racist'. He regarded the French, Germans, Italian and Spanish as second class countries due to their younger, less mature democracies. This was good old fashioned British upper class racism! One would not be able to distinguish this from traditional high Tory jingoism. Benn wanted to hide behind democracy, sovereignty, jobs and co-operation but did not want anyone outside Britain from benefiting with prosperity! He dishonestly tried to compare a few years including the aftermath of the OPEC Oil crisis with a period of economic success that had been steered by his colleague Mr Jenkins. Absolutely ridiculous misrepresentation of statistics; this was wickedly deceitful despite the balanced manner of the delivery. Benn referred to the need to maintain a check on elected politicians which is a universal concern about the unelected elites of the EU. However, there is a false pretence that national politicians are somehow locally accountable due to the constituency system. This is an absolute fallacy in the vast majority of areas; it is a fabrication designed to keep the populus in check. Very few people give a damn about their local MP, ever communicate with them in person or have actually read their manifestos.
Benn all the way here. Arguments relevant to today. Thank God we are coming out of this is EU debacle. It cannot and will not succeed.
Great debate by two very intelligent men but the foresight of Tony Benn here is spot on.
The EU is no longer an economic Common Market we joined in 1973 but a political authoritarian entity......and thank God we left it.
Brussels and the all powerful Commission will lead Europe down a dark path.
Tony Benn 1 Roy Jenkins 0
This should be shown on main stream media now. Instead of the utter nonsense we see today.
Astonishing looking back how sensible Tony Benn sounds.
😆
Said without irony.
@@pgl0897 You do realise that only dummies use emoticons don't you (and that emoticon in particular)? It would never even occur to Tony Benn to use an emoticon...
What did you think at the time?
@Paul Gavin \He was never a Marxist.
He was a traditional left wing liberal minded socialist - this 'Marxist ' stuff is tabloid crap, because certain very rich people then, exactly like now of course, were worried about losing some of their wealth by increased wealth taxation to benefit society as a whole.
@Carl Yelland He was indeed
Mature political debate between two men from the SAME party which can be understood by everyone. What a contrast to 2016/2019.
Quite a contrast of views on the EU between Tony Benn and his son Hilary Benn.
Tony would be rolling on his grave at the actions of his son
@@mogznwaz Hilary did state that he was a Benn, but not a Bennite.
@@Dan-ct5zl As I said. Toby Benn must be rolling in his grave with shame and embarrassment.
To think Dimbleby has gone from this type of political debate to the shit now. Man this is so much different than the sound bite and focus group answers in politics today.
Incredible, isn’t it - I really think the introduction of the cheering/jeering studio audience has a lot to answer for.
G Cat good point, though there was an audience here wasn't there? But today people go to Question Time to cheer or jeer. They are conditioned basically
It's a shame Dimbledy doesn't sit back and listen today!!!
Teresa Harrison The new host of QT is much worse
This really does highlight how much we have dumbed down. Whatever side of the argument you agree with, Benn and Jenkins demonstrate great interlect and superb debating skills.
REmember Gove saying we don't want to hear from experts anymore.
"The commissioners don't have to listen to the British people because they are immune to the possibility of electoral defeat." That is exactly why I voted leave.
Yorick Jenkins I once saw Mr Benn on BBCQT. He put the view that the problem with the EC commission was we had no electoral power to vote them out if we didn’t like what they had done. That has stuck with me ever since. It is the single most fundamental point in all of this. I voted to leave for exactly that reason among others. It was TB that shaped my view on Europe then, and I have not changed. He is and was a great man.
@@stevieh9860 Same , it was Benn that convinced me the right vote was leave, we are all going to have to work our asses off though, export UK goods worldwide, because the EU won't make it easy.
dave dave I’ll be honest I cannot see us leaving in the truest sense of the word. There will be some fudge that gives us the worst of all worlds. Partly that is because the great passionate speakers and principled MPs have been replaced by policy wonks, corporate shills, frightened to be unpopular. We miss the likes of Benn not only for what he stood for, but his individuality, his stubbornness, his innate belief. Sadly lacking now, even J C is finding it hard to remain true to himself. Conviction politicians are rare these days.
@@stevieh9860 Totally agree
That was the quality of British politicians in the 1970s. What a downhill slide it has been.
Tony Benn was brilliant.
Fascinating debate. Tony Benin’s arguments are a summary of th reasons the voters of the UK voted to leave the EU 45 years later
industry gone. Power elec, gas gone. Water gone. Self governance gone. Rail gone . Self power coal nuclear etc gone. Phones gone. Steel gone. Public transport, not owned by the public.All gone. Not only has everything been privatised its not even owned by british interests. But we still have the service industry Finance , fast food, entertainment and taxis most of which arent owned by british interests. Britain on the up. I give up.
What did Blair and brown do about industry . Absolutely nothing..
All of which happened since 1975 - being in the EEC/EU offered no protection at all, in fact it encouraged privatisation.
Good debate. These days you don't get interesting debates like this on tv. Usually they just shout abuse at each other.
Now this is a debate
I've been looking for this debate for years. Most excellent - two political heavyweights debating this hot potato topic. Thanks for uploading.
Rabbi Bubba s
Excellent upload,many thanks.
I had wanted to see this Panorama debate for many years,and it was worth the wait. Two genuine political heavyweights in their prime.
My goodness MP’s were far better. The debate is now in the gutter!!!! For the record the public used to be more informed too.
Yes the standard of debate could not be equaled today
Great debate. (very public {private} school, however) much better than today in 2019, 44 years later. I side with Tony Benn on this issue.
Politicians these days don't talk about balance of payments.
Brilliant - with proper Panorama theme too...
Nostalgia for a lost Britain is real here
Civilised, respectful debate, our current politicians should watch and learn!
Thank you so much for uploaded this discussion.
Just 30 minutes in David, and I am struck by how little has changed. In 1975, as now, the great bulk of our profitable trade is with the Rest of the World, and not with the EU. Thanks for sending me that. I might try and spread it around a little
Wonderful, thank you. Benn is against joining because he cares about sovereignty, democracy, and accountability - like a lefty should. Jenkins, to his credit and although the biggest interLabour lefty-puncher of his day, doesn't call Benn a racist or witlessly sneer that national sovereignty is an inherently rightwing concern; as such, he's more decent and honest than all the modern Remainers, the Torys who used such smears in bad faith, and the wokeAF neoliberals Labourites who used such smears sincerely.
Yes! and now Corbyn is quietly setting himself up...
You can't say that some of the accusations were unwarranted by suggesting that xenophobia was not a large issue during the debate of the recent referendum. The rise of UKIP and the increase in attacks and hate speech spiked around the referendum and formed a part of the political dialogue from the Tories and UKIP. As for Corbyn, he was always a Bennite and shares Tony Benn's opinion of the EU which is where I do agree with you.
your remoaner argument totally ignores the Thatcher / jingoism effect that started with the Falklands debacle ... before 1982 people could talk about sovereignty in Britain without the racist overtones - but not afterwards .... after 1982 Britain once again became a warmongering nation; Iraq x 2, Agfanistan, Libya, Syria - something it rejected post Korea 1953 ; barring colonial issues in Aden, Ulster, and South Africa
Well said, slap head.
Britain rejected warmongering post-Korea? Malaya Emergency? Suez? Vietnam? Brunei? Kenya? Northern Ireland? Your history is quite off mate.
What an excellent piece.... I was only 8 years old then. Tony Benn was so exactly right...... and its amazing how 42 years later the situation is as described.
What a great debate with two passionate, articulate politicians. Thank you so much for sharing.
Blimey, the quality of debate is so superior when compared to today. Real intellectuals. The world has dumbed down.
I saw this debate live in 75. I thought Benn was right back then and indeed he has been proven right.
Only he hasn't.
@@Daniel-San75 Yes. He has.
What an absolutely superb debate, goodness me compare this with the hysterical childish drivel we've had now, and we are always being told things are getting better. As it happens I thing many things in our country are getting worse as time goes on. Did you notice how Dimbleby tries to siderail the debate with the cheap shot at quoting Benn from 5 years ago and how Jenkins brushed that aside as irrelevant. I think both of these politicians heads would have exploded watching the last 3 years. Huge respect to them, and I'm a Tory.
After watching Tony Benn here I am amazed that Leave didn't win by a landslide.
The lexit movement didn't get a fair share in the media.
People were a lot smarter back then, they understood global positioning.
'Leave didn't win by a landslide'
The stay campaign was a well-organised machine while the leave campaign was not well financed, full of opinions and not organised.
When the referendum was announced, the stay campaign was right out of the gates.
Tony Benn wasn't around by then....sadly and unfortunately
If Wilson was truly angered by this type of debate then he was a narrow-minded fool. This was fantastic. I thought honest, open debate was central to democracy? Having never seen Roy Jenkins in action, I found him to be a masterful debater. Tony Benn's style has always made me feel a bit patronising. Regardless this was an outstanding debate.
Not a single mention of immigration, which was a relief compared to this year's debates
Yes, because at that time the Community had no 'free movement of people ' law.
There has been free movement of labour with the Common Market (which predated the EU) since the Treaty of Rome, 1957.
Exactly. and a much misunderstood point is that Ukip started as an anti EU party on democracy and sovereignty and immigration became a focus later.
Toddy - yes, as you say it was 'labour' first, this subtly changed though into 'people'.
Have you seen the joint proposal of Welsh Labour, Lib Dem and Plaid Cymru ? They jointly think that free movement of LABOUR - meaning that people would be free to come to the UK if they have a job to go to - would enable the UK to leave the EU but stay in the Single Market. (BTW Wales, unlike N. Ireland and Scotland, voted for Brexit).
Woy missed out on brexit but so did mr Tony. Mr. B’s stand on democracy was admirable.
A charming, brilliant and convincing Tony Benn! Even a person like me who does not live in UK cannot but feel admiration for the calm man, the principled socialist and sincere democrat who Tony Benn had been! His opposition against the undemocratic and unreformable EU has been widely confirmed and have been proved far- sighted! If Tony Benn had been elected leader of the Labour Party, Britain would have been a very different country today: a beacon of socialism, democracy and equality in Europe- in all probability! Instead, the British people opted for Thatcher's neoliberal utopia and for the de- labourized labour party of Tony Blair! What a pity!
But even now Tony Benn's appearances and ideals are a source of precious inspiration for the Left- in Britain and elsewhere!
Socialism put Britain on its knees. Thatcher was unfortunately a necessary correction then Blair made everything 100x worse.
Tony benn hit it on the nail starting at 39.50 which is the present today in Brussels
Compare these two with the useless non-entities in charge of us today.
Wow a proper honest debate politics from the heart who ever side your on its a breath of fresh air to see how it use to be . Every likely ppl are switched off with the boring positions of today
Great robust but friendly discussion this is what politics should be all about
comfy
Tony Benn was so right, and Roy Jenkins so wrong. I held this view at the time.
We did it in the end, Tony. Just sad you weren't here to see it.
He would have been appalled at how it was done and why.
@BigWiki123321 Tony Benn abhorred the idea of a sovereign state, and as both gentlemen say in the video, it's a ridiculous idea. Jacob Rees Mogg, Boris Johnson etc founded their entire argument for leaving the EU on the idea we would "take back control" as a sovereign state. (Indeed JRM wrote a book called "The Sovereign Individual, tho it's not really about this subject). So although we reached the conclusion that Benn (and I'm sure privately Corbyn) wanted, we got there in a way he would have hated, especially as the £350m for the NHS was a lie about an institution he loved.
You haven’t done it yet
It is a shame him and the 'Old Witch' didn't see June 23rd 2016, it would have been interesting.
@@Hoxification Are you expecting a civilised reply to that idiotic rant?
I have always considered myself a right wing conservative ; Tony Benn has always been considered a left wing socialist . I recognized at this time in 1975 , listening to his discussion for Britain not to join the EEC/EU , both here and in the famous Oxford Union debate , that together with Peter Shore he was absolutely right in his assessment of the dangers to democracy that Britain faced . Over the now 45 years since Britain joined the EEC Tony Benn has been proven absolutely right . I had already made up my mind to vote Leave .
Michael Foot was the same, watch his debate with Edward Heath...both put up robust arguments...however its Foot`s arguments that really have stood the test of time...everything he said would happen..happened...An economic Union became a political union, where nation state countries were slowly forced to seed away political power as well as their own contries sovereign laws...it was mission creep on a massive scale , that was not what the people had voted for, all done from the centre in Brussels, driven by Bureaucrats and elite`s...Foot , Benn, Peter Shore and Enoch Powell all called it ...they were all spot on...
Amazing debate.
Now you can clearly see how far the Labour Party has fallen.
Jenkins is a brilliant debater, even if one disagrees with him, which I do.
The Great Tony Benn. He put a couple dabs of Roy in his pipe and smoked him! Not for the first time. What a man. True inspiration.
Mr Benn was exactly right about what was going to happen. Mr Jenkins went on to become President of the European Commission in 1977!
@@lerhodes2236 IT Sure did, and like all traitors who sold their countrymen into the claws of a criminal gang, that had more in common with the soviet system, HE, and HEATH, MAJOR, BLIAR, MACRON MERKEL ETC ETC ETC , WERE AWARDED THE GOLD CHARLEMAGNE MEDAL' A AWARD, ADOPTED BY THE NAZIS.
Woy was on the back foot from the start of this exchange, Benn recites the figures from memory, remarkable. How we miss him and the late Christopher Hitchens.
Don't know how you can mention the great Tony Benn and the warmonger Christopher Hitchens in the same sentence.
@@grahamrogers3345 Grow up, you have no idea what you’re talking about.
I think this should be shown in the House of Commons next week to show all MP's how they should behave. No shouting, no abuse, name calling, no school playground petty squabbles. It really saddens and infuriates me how MP's behave towards each other, you can have a difference of opinion without being nasty, vulgar or mocking each other.
country = it's own money law and army
And borders
Listening to Foot, Benn, Jenkins and especially Heath in my youth, turned me into a lifelong Brexiteer. Lessons at school before the first vote had already set my mind. Panorama was one of the few outlets that gave you a different view from the norm, as the general media just like today, was for remaining.
As for being to skint to leave, our debt level hasn't stopped growing since the day we joined, yet it was supposed to be making us richer.
This is the kind of debate/discussion you get when the participants are in full command of their subject and are brilliantly able to articulate their opinions.
Love this sort of footage. It's as if you're there.
Superb.
I fully agree with Tony Benn’s position about the electorate and being able to hire and fire its MPs, and that being at the foundation of democracy however, there is one significant caveat. The rise in corporate power. There are companies in Silicon Valley that can decide how democracy works in Britain for example and the British public have no say in how that company or other corporations influence decisions that are made in the British Isles. Add to this the power of media corporations and other lobbyists that shape public policy and public opinion in far more influential ways that MPs can. This includes War and war and immigration go hand in hand. Democracy can and is being bought and we would all be naive to think otherwise regardless of our political persuasion. Communism is despised for it flaws, but capitalism often plays more mind games that are accepted under the ever enticing misleading banner of ‘Freedom and Liberty’.
Power to the people.
Interesting paragraph, full of drivel though.
This is the best debate I have ever seen!
Is anyone else utterly and totally baffled that with this in our collective consciousness, we arrived at the point we have now? Like what went wrong? Did our species will itself to become fucktards or is it just a deterministic irony?
50 years in Europe wrecked British politics as much as it trashed our industry & wider economy.
Two truly great British politicians. Benn, always my favourite, but on Europe Jenkins was right imo.
I remember those days, and there has been a marked decline in the intellectual level of political debate in this country. Our politicians were once described 'as the most articulate in the English speaking world' by an American commentator - no more. And listen to that diction, sadly disappearing, deliberately 'ironed' out as 'elitist'. (UK)
The only time I totally agreed withTony Benn, every voter should have been made to watch this programme. How right he was. We have been sold down the line by all parties.. who have turned out to be a total disgrace.
Two people who, despite their diametrically opposed opinions on the subject, clearly respect each other. This debate is characterised by civility, eloquence and decency.
Why couldn't the 2016 Brexit Referendum campaign have been condicted in this way?
Because a rabble rousing, jingoistic and deceitful campaign was necessary to get brexit over the line.
actually I take that back. They're both great!
How interesting to see the arguments put forward in 1975 are actually very similar to those of the 2016 Brexit referendum. Tony Benn and Roy Jenkins are much more intelligent in the points they make and much more polite to each other. So similar arguments, but big change in respect to opponents.
so relevant ......2019
Watching this footage, you realise how we have lost something. There are probably many factors, partly our more capable intellects have gone off into more well-paid professions such as law and banking. I also think social media and the instant gratification we demand in today's society has resulted in people not tolerating these longer, learned discussions. I am sure there are other factors but looking at these in particular, I do not see how the situation will improve in the near future. In fact, it'll probably get worse.
It's a civilised discussion. Not like today.
Far more information today. In 1975 there was just three TV channels and no possibility to re-watch a programme. I agree the standard of debate is good. One problem is the media has increased its input that we shouldn't have to listen to.
@@Iazzaboyce (Far more information today.) Much more data but much more of less and zero value.
@@valvlog4665 Was you alive back then? There was no '24 hrs TV news', no 'internet'. If you wanted specialist information you borrowed a book from a public library.
If only the people had listened to Tony Benn how different the History of this Country might have been.
I guess we'll find out the reality of brexit in a month or so. I'm not hopeful as the realities of disentangling from the EU and creating a 'global' Britain. It'll take a decade.
Tony nails it,nothing has changed
Tony Benn was spot on, Europe has destroyed our parliamentary democracy.
Airstrip One TV There’s no such thing as democracy. Only capitalism and the capital class. While you wage slaves fall for all the bullshit. In or out ! It won’t make any difference to the common man.
@@gaygambler that's not true loads of anti business parties have been elected before.
President Kudsi which ones? For instance
@@gaygambler well Labour's early 70s government, Teddy Roosevelt broke up the big banks with his anti trust laws in America before the great war, various socialists elected in France Spain and Italy. Allende in Chile before his overthrow.
President Kudsi There not really socialist unfortunately. And Like most governments they just tinker about with capitalism.
Modern debate is much better than this, as we have thousands or even millions of people all contributing to the discussion without any idea what they are talking about. It hasn't done us any harm, we all respect each other and come to an agreement in the end.
LOL
Five minutes in and this shows how the calibre of politicians in those days was far higher than today. Civilised debate so far - might get personal further in!
It's a shame that people can't see that Benn is also right on his Socialist beliefs. Instead we will get Brexit with the Tories having a bonfire of workers rights from day 1.
We now know that today's workers are first in the queue to give up their hard earned rights,
He was clearly wrong on some points. In this case this is not about socialism orMarxism. It was about democracy. Thanks to the Marxist Union leaders who replaced decent Union leaders in the sixties and seventies we became the sick man of Europe. One of the reasons we joined the Common Market was due to this. It is well known if were not so weak we would have never joined. Poor middle management and the Unions were the block to modernising British manufacturing. There were many Conservatives and Liberals who agreed with Tony Benn on the democracy point but not on hid spend spend spend.