Do Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God?
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- Опубліковано 23 лис 2023
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Do #Christians and #Muslims #Worship the Same #God?
Depending on what period of history you consult #Church statements about Muslim and Christian relations, you may get a fairly different emphasis. For example, if you consulted statements from the time in which Christendom and even Rome herself were desperately defending her borders from Islamic military conquest, then you will likely hear about how - these guys - we don’t really like these guys.
But, in the 20th century, at a time when the Church wanted to emphasize fraternity and peace in the world, you would come away with a fairly different emphasis. And for some who are only familiar with the more modern emphasis, it seems like more than a few people are left drifting into indifferentism - in which they think it doesn’t really matter whether your Christian or Muslim, or some other tradition. Whereas some have reacted quite harshly to modern Church statements and want to say that Islam, and all other religions are merely false and nothing else need be said about it.
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I was raised Muslim and lived in Pakistan, converted Catholic in 2019. Our God is not the same as their god.
Welcome to the True Faith. God bless you
Amen. Allah is a terrible being. The horror we see in Gaza is just a small sample of the nature of the faith from Allah.
Deo gratias 🙏
No, God is the same. You just got a warped version in Islam because Israelis created Islam to form an army to fight Christians. God is very much the same but Christians got the pacifist version from Israelis and Muslims got only the war version. In Islam you still have the Trinity it's just not connected and considered one, plus Israelis downgraded Jesus.
@@lkae4 there are Catholics that worship Allah, Allah is just the word used to God in Arabic.
1 John 2:22
Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father and the Son.
And St.Paul backs this up in Galatians 1:8-12 by saying that anyone who comes to you preaching a different gospel than the one already presented, let him be anathema.
Amen! They don't believe in The Son of God Jesus Christ. They don't believe in Holy Trinity. It's not the same God. It's not even God.
They believe Jesus is the christ they just don't believe he's God.
@@christophersnedeker They deny that he is the Son. They profess allah has no son. How much clearer could John have described their heresy?
@@StanleyPinchakRoman Catholicsm entered highest point of idolatry since their infalible II Vatican Council where they not only calimed and make it doctrine of their faith that they and mahometans worship the same god, they also went further and said he is our common creator and thus mahometans have possiblity of salvation - this heresy was further confirmed by bishops of Rome John Paul II, Benedict 16-th or current Bishop of Rome Francis. They canonised as their saint (infalible act) Mother Theresa of Calcuta who was teaching in accordance with Roman Catholic heresy that mahometans share with them same god; but she even make it wider to include even pagan hindus.
In January 2021, the Bishop of Rome, Roman Catholic Pope Francis announced a prayer intention in which he confirmed the heretical position of the teaching magisterium of the Roman Church, proclaiming error and apostasy from the Christian faith, calling on Christians to commit idolatry by recognizing pagans and rabbis - members of false faiths that do not recognize Divinity and Sonship of Jesus Christ - for believers in the same "God" as Christians, and thus for calling them "brothers and sisters" of Christians, and participating with them in prayers to a common "god"
Pontifical Universal Prayer Network. Papal Prayer Intention in the service of human brotherhood:
"When we pray to God following Jesus, we come together as brothers and sisters
With those who pray according to other cultures, other traditions and other beliefs.
We are brothers and sisters who pray. Fraternity leads us to open ourselves to the Father of us all and see the other as a brother or sister, to share our life or support, to love and know the other. The Church values God's action in other religions, without forgetting that for us Christians, the source of human dignity and brotherhood is in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We believers must return to our sources and concentrate on what is essential.
What is fundamental to our faith is adoration of God and love for neighbor. Let us pray that the Lord will give us the grace to live in full community with our brothers and sisters of other religions, and not to fight each other. And praying one for another, they opened themselves to everyone.
- Bishop of Rome Francis
“Christians and Muslims share many things in common, as believers, as human beings. We live in the same world, marked by many signs of hope, but also by many signs of sorrow. For us, Abraham is a model of faith in God, submission to his will and confidence in his goodness. We believe in the same God, one God, the Living God, the God who created the world and brought His creatures to their perfection.
- Pope John Paul II, "address to the young Muslims of Morocco, August 19, 1985
Hello Brian. How can we say that we adore the same God when Jesus Himself said that who rejects Him rejects the Father?
I agree, but perhaps Jesus was addressing Christians-in-name only? He can’t, for example, have been addressing those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Him and perhaps, for example, Muslims do not know Him. (Don’t know if that makes sense).
They have a concept of him but do not know him.
@@afterlate8866They explicitly reject the crucifixion, resurrection, and divinity of our Lord. They know what they are doing.
@@afterlate8866 Your logic applies only those human beings born in islamic faith who do not propagate islam and do not read about Jesus nor lie about Jesus but live their daily life as per their own terms where as those who propagate islam read his word lie about him. Even christians do not know Jesus or heavenly father as to none of you Jesus has revealed himself and heavenly father in their real identity but you guys believe in the scripture written by jews which is the truth where as islamic propagators lie about Jesus based on deceitful scripture of satan allah.
@@FimiliarGalaxy9 They just dont have concept of him based on their own assumptions .They have their scripture from satan allah which makes them lie about Jesus.If by reading the bible they choose to lie about Jesus they deserve to be in hell with satan allah.
It's funny; "religious indifferentism" is itself a religious belief.
I prefer the phrase "religious relativism", seems to hit the pseudo-reality on the head much better.
No.
The Father is God.
The Son is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.
Three Persons, One God.
Nor are the three distinct Persons parts of God as God is absolutely simple. It is therefore not possible to worship only a "part."
Muslims knowingly deny the Trinity. They do not worship the One God.
So would it be accurate to say that Mormons and Jehovas also don’t worship the same God?
@@soulfuzz368correct
@@soulfuzz368 correct
@@soulfuzz368
Correct, they aren't Christians
@@soulfuzz368Yes ; good question/point!!
When Muslims claim we worship the same God they are just absolutely wrong.
Our God is the only one and much different from the Muslim god. Just look at the difference in our cultures to see how much different they are.
The culture is different, the worship is different but both say they worship the only God that exists. So if there is a God at all, it must be the same.
@Qwerty-jy9mj check my other comment to see why this is not necessarily true. We are claiming to worship the same position of one true God but we mean different beings when we talk about it.
Same position, different beings means we don't worship the same God.
@@daltonburroughs3811
If this is the criteria, then Calvinists worship a different God than Catholics
@daltonburroughs3811, you are correct! Except Muslims don't claim to worship the same god as the Christian God. Allah is "the Best of Deceivers," in the Quran, who is "the Father of Lies," in the Bible.
@@Qwerty-jy9mj Just because Islam worships one god, does NOT make it the One True God. Islam worships one false god, Allah who is "the Best of Deceivers," in the Quran, and "the Father of Lies," in the Bible.
Thank you, brother, thank you - your clarity of thought is always appreciated.
The very fact of the Trinity view of God which Christians adhere to vs the Tawhid view of God which Muslims adhere to means we can’t be worshipping the same God. It’s not just a difference in details, it’s a difference in nature.
It’s like talking about “Jim” but the “Jim” I am thinking of is a World War 2 vet and the Jim you are thinking of is in 9th grade and plays JV basketball.
On this same note, post resurrection Jews also worship a different God.
I disagree.
Playing off your example, it's like we're talking about the same Jane, but you are married to her and I haven't seen or heard from her since she was six. I have all sorts of ideas about who she is, but I'm wrong. We're still taking about the same person, though, and the fact I'm getting things wrong doesn't change that.
Please notice that the question isn't, "Do Christians and Muslims believe the same things?" or "Do Muslims offer the same quality of worship to God?" or "Is Muslim and Christian worship of God equally valid?" to which the answers would be no. The question, "Do we worship the same God?" is a different question. It might be that it is the one entertained in order to maximize the effect of ecumenism and provide an occasion to say "yes". But it doesn't mean that both creeds are equal in merit or that our worship is of equal value or suitability - in the same way that Cain and Abel worshipped the same God with dramatically different outcomes or in the same way that someone who knows me superficially doesn't have the same knowledge as someone who knows me intimately like my wife. That is what is argued in the video.
Ed Feser did a post on this on his blog about this topic. Check it out.
edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2015/12/christians-muslims-and-reference-of-god.html
Hi Brian, thanks for the video.
It was well presented, faithful to what the Church teaches. I just wanted to bring your attention to two points. In as much as Nostra Aetate should be read in line with Lumen Gentium, I’ll only focus on LG16.
First, the Council states “But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, ‘qui fidem Abrahae se tenere profitentes…’ ” [“professing to hold the faith of Abraham”]. Notice how the Council doesn’t say they profess the faith of Abraham; instead, It recognizes Muslims themselves believe they do. This nuance is important.
A second nuance is also important, since the phrase continues: “… nobiscum Deum adorant UNICUM, misericordem…” [translated into English as “along with us adore THE one and merciful God].” However, there is no article in Latin. The translators in English and some other languages, have use the definite article in their translations “The one and merciful God.” Yet, in many other language (i.e. Italian, Spanish), the translation is done with the indefinite article “along with us adore AN UNIQUE and merciful God.” A reading of the acts of the Council would reflect better the second indeterminate understanding. Yet, since most don’t read Lumen Gentium in Latin (official language of the Council documents) but in their own language, later writings reflect the first interpretation. Although posterior statements by Popes are Magisterium, we need to be clear what the Council taught, which should help us to read later statements..
Blessings!
Worship? Define worship.
@@claybodyworship=old english giving honor due to a thing's excellence. Catholic doctrine. Latria=the supreme honor only worthy of being given to the Supreme Being. God....
💯
Overall, this is a good video with a helpful analogy. Lest people get the impression, however, that this doctrinal stance began with Vatican II, let me point out that it is the position held by Pope St. Gregory VII, the Catechism of Pius X, and in the scholastic tradition (St. Robert Bellarmine, for example). I have not yet found any statements from the magisterial tradition to the contrary. Dr. Ed Feser, the well-known Thomist Philosopher, has a great article explaining this teaching on his website. It’s similar to Brian’s presentation here in its basic argumentation but with more philosophical jargon and a slightly different example of the difference between sense and reference. It’s a good read for those struggling with this topic.
I do fully appreciate the savage joke at 5:10.
That was hilarious. Definitely made me chuckle.
Thank you for addressing the topic of Muslims and Catholics. Your insights are greatly appreciated. I would like to encourage Muslims to explore the possibility of converting to Catholicism. May God bless you, and by God, I refer to the Holy Trinity.🙏🏼
He is following false religion and modernism, of a false church after Vatican II.
Acts 4,10 and 12 - "Be it known to you all... by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, ... Neither is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved."
1 John 2:22 - "Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father, and the Son."
1 John 2:23 - "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father. He that confesseth the Son, hath the Father also."
You will loose salvation believing and embracing what Holdsworth embraces. I say in true charity.
@@tradicnykatolik_skthe gates of hell have not prevailed against the Church. The Pope is always going to be the head of the Church, until the end of the world. Sedevacantism is a dangerous and false ideology.
No thank you
There is no way Allah is our God, absolutely no way. And I have this from former Muslims as well as learning about Allah from the Quran.
God bless Brian. I thank him heartily for standing up in the general cowardice of our time.
Islam was originally understood as a Christian heresy. I think we can acknowledge that Christians and Muslims both acknowledge the God of natural theology (which is the same God), while knowing their understanding is faulty because their revelation is inherently faulty since it doesn't acknowledge the Trinity (and is therefore not salvific), and while still emphasizing the seriousness of heresy.
I think people disagreeing with the fact that we worship the same God drastically understate the nature of what heresy actually is. You'd need to grant that Arians, Nestorians, Monophysites, Albigensians, Protestants, Unitarians, and Muslims all worship not only a different God from the Catholics, but a different God from one another, which is ridiculous.
We concede nothing to the Muslim by acknowledging this.
Well said.
@@reinedire7872I second that.
I'll also add: not only does acknowledging that we worship the same God concede nothing to the Muslim, it denies Dawahgandists entire lines of propaganda.
They expect Christians to take the "we don't worship the same God!" reasoning and then, when they rightfully show the Christian wrong on this issue, the Christian's faith is shaken and they become more susceptible to Dawah.
Say instead to a Dawahgandist: "yes, like us, you affirm the God of Abraham, much like the heretic Arius did, of which your heretical religion is an offshoot. Your prophet is a liar. Repent, and believe in the Gospel."
@@newglof9558 Amen. So important to understand Islam’s roots in Arianism and for that matter the Gnostic tendencies in Protestant thought (at times).
Wrong. Christians and Muslims do NOT worship the same God/god. And if you said that in a Muslim country; they would behead you! Allah is "the Best of Deceivers," in the Quran, who is "the Father of Lies," in the Bible.
Very well nuanced. Every Catholic should read Nostra Aetate. But I agree (as does Lumen Gentium) that the commonalities found in other religions in no way reduces the need for evangelization.
An actual sober take in this comment section, instead of hysterical screeching? Wow!
If you read Nostra Aetate in full and closely you'll notice that the hierarchy still wants us in the laity to evangelize everyone, all while they are restricting the clergy from doing so. Given that, they are explicitly telling the clergy to disobey a direct command from our Lord and Savior (which none of the clergy is bound to obey since it is a sinful directive). It's easy to miss that due to how long in the tooth the document is, and how often they are talking out of both sides of their mouth in a seeming effort not to offend anyone (except Jesus Christ).
In Christ,
Andrew
After some of the Christians I’ve met in the last few years I’m not sure they all worship the same God either. Great video btw
That's a pretty cavalier thing to say
@@Qwerty-jy9mj fair enough.
I made this comment based on my neighbour who is a lesbian Anglican pastor who has two adopted children that are transgender. I have a few friends who are strict orthodox Christians and they would most definitely say that she is worshipping a different God. It would be interesting to see how she would answer the same question though. My guess is that she would say yes. I find this topic fascinating.
@@soulfuzz368
Well, on the one hand these are baptized Christians, on the other, what they do couldn't possibly constitute worship or perhaps it could be a form of self worship which amounts to satanism.
@@soulfuzz368her god is progress, and it is a false god
TMNT.
The same God is anthropomorphized differently in Islam.
It's more than that. They deny the incarnation so they would say that they don't anthropomorphize God. Also the Holy Trinity is part of revelation so nobody outside of Christianity has it.
When we see the characterization of God in islam as basically' muhammad's genie, you can see how primitive and limited it is.
All they really got right about God is that it's the Creator. They aren't wrong, they're just missing everything else.
I’m sorry. What do you mean by “anthropomorphized differently in Islam?“ What is described as human isn’t human? Are trying to describe Jesus? Oh have you missed the boat.
False. The gangster god 'Allah" is not Yahweh, the lord. Allah is either Mohamed or the devil!
@@jeffstumpf9129 I'm referring to the characterizations of God the Father as having human qualities.
The Christian God is a trinitarian God who tells Humanity to call him father and who loves humanity. The Muslim God is a single entity god that does not love humanity, aka, it's a demon.
Hey random question in your background where did you get that lantern thats on your bookshelf? It looks pretty and warm, i would love to gey oje
Anyone know where the statue of Jesus from the thumbnail is from?
There's only one God. Mistaken ideas about Him do not mean we somehow no longer worship Him but a 'false god' instead. If this were so, most Catholic would worship a false god at one time or other. For example, Catholic children often hold mistaken ideas about the Trinity, the two natures of Christ and other complex doctrines.
Allah is the Best of Deceivers, in the Quran, who is the Father of Lies (Satan), in the Bible. Different Gods. The pagans don't worship the One True God. And Muslims don't worship the One True God. Muslims are unbaptized pagans, who worship 1 false god.
If "worshiping the same God" means "believing the same things about the Absolute Reality when engaged in religious worship thereof" then, no, we don't "worship the same God."
If "worshiping the same God" means "being in a worshipful orientation toward Absolute Reality which exists independently of our doctrinal beliefs and theological ideas while others with different beliefs and theological ideas are also in a worshipful orientation to the selfsame, identical, and independently real Absolute" then the answer is obviously yes, we DO worship the same God as Muslims.
What's more, if "worshiping the same God" entails having a substantially identical theology, most Christians don't "worship the same God" as most other Christians.
Certainly it makes no sense to affirm that Christians worship the same God as Jewish people who deny the Incarnation and the Trinity while simultaneously denying that Muslims worship the same God as Christians because Muslims deny the Incarnation and the Trinity. That's simply indefensibly idiotic, and the fact that many Christians would affirm that they worship the same God that Jews worship but not the same God that Muslims worship demonstrates that people base their answer to this question on irrational prejudices, not rational principles.
Yes - Brian! I appreciate your courage to speak up for Magisterial teaching on a controversial issue with a balanced view... AMDG
The theological evidence is not in dispute, but there are significant practical and cultural differences that CAN make a very REAL difference (for individual practitioners) that lead to a “different” God concept at the end.
It is important to understand this “ending difference” does not point to an “initial difference.” It’s also important to say if two people end up with different God concepts then they do indeed (despite any theological points) “worship different Gods.”
I hope whichever side people fall on they can see theology and practicality can have different lived realities that are BOTH valid and deserving of serious consideration in this question.
My dear brother,
I think you are approaching this topic on a bit of a relativistic bend. Your analogy of two different individuals talking about you and still encapsulating who you are does not fit this discussion.
Let us take your example and run with it. Let's take a perfectly faithful Catholic who talks about GOD and HIS Justice and Mercy and a Satanist who talks about Free Will and Choice! Both are referring to virtues of GOD. Are they both talking about the same god?
Let us take the Catholic GOD and the god of Islam. One of these talks about Love and Compassion and the other professes endless war and enternal sex with virgin daemonettes!
Can they both be the same god or is one True GOD and the other a false god?
Yes, test the spirits.
“Dearly beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits if they be of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” (1 Jo 4:1, DRC)
The difference is that both Catholics and Muslims refer to the same person as God, the God of Abraham. We just differ over the specifics. Islam is just a Christian heresy, just like Arianism, Mormonism or Jehova's Witnesses.
Thank you for making this video. Even though I disagree with your conclusion, I appreciate your willingness to tackle this sticky subject in such a cordial manner, knowing full well that you'll be harshly criticized regardless.
I'm honestly surprised by that. I basically compared Islam to the worship of Cain...
@@BrianHoldsworth But you see God the father was obvious to Cain. But the Trinity has now been revealed. God is Triune. If you take a leg out of the three legged stool the whole thing falls over.
His conclusion is straight out of magisterial documents. Not trying to be controversial or mean, but you aren't permitted as a faithful Catholic to disagree.
@@lyterman I guess St. John the Apostle and Bishop Athanasius Schneider aren't faithful Catholics then.
Who knew.
@@tMatt5M In the off chance that you're genuinely asking in good faith, I'll answer. Assent isn't owed prior to magisterial teaching on something. That is why Thomas Aquinas held a position on the Immaculate Conception that is not permitted to a faithful Catholic today. Even with that caveat, there is a sense in which we can say that Muslims don't worship the same God, the sense that Brian explained in the video. But denying that there is a sense in which Muslims worship the same God as we do is a direct denial of magisterial teaching that is owed assent. Be careful with this, brother.
Christians believe in a triune God - three persons in one God; Muslims do not, so how can He be the same God? How can something as radical and fundamental as this, reveal the same God? To use Brian’s analogy would be to say something like: ‘Brian is Japanese with dark hair’ whilst others say that ‘he has red hair and is Canadian’. Would we really be talking about the same person? (Yes, I guess you could argue that in both cases he is still a person!). Christians believe in Jesus being God and Man; Muslims believe Jesus is simply a prophet. There is a huge difference - we cannot downplay this (there are many other important differences, but these two are fundamental) and we must not brush these aside. We also have more historical records regarding the existence of Christ than we do of say, Julius Caesar, and we have two thousand-plus years of Church history and the writings of Church fathers to refer to - so hardly mere ‘opinion’ with only little evidence. None of us should be arrogant about our faith, as faith is a gift from God and can easily be lost, yet important differences have to be stated with humility and conviction and conviction has been, and is being, eroded. That, is the problem.
What is the name of the song that plays at the beginning
Thanks for this! As Catholics we believe in the Trinity, that is the very nature of the God we believe in. Muslims do not. While it is true that both creeds believe there is One God, is this enough of a reason to say we believe in the "same" God when something as substantial as the Trinity is at stake?
By that reason should we conclude that Abraham, and Moses did not worship the same God as us? They believed their God was a singular being. There is even a lot of evidence to suggest the early Hebrews believed their God was just the greatest god among many. This is called Hebrew Henotheism. I would say that idea is even more of a difference than the single God having a trinitarian nature.
We can't conclude that though because Abraham and Moses are directly related to the history of salvation in the Catholic Church. Christ coming and redeeming the world was the fulfillment of the time of Abraham and Moses. Islam started almost 600 years after the death of Christ. All of revelation and truth had been revealed already when Islam started whereas Abraham and Moses awaited patiently for the fulfillment of the law. This is not a fair comparison.@@drewaskins8377
Yes because it’s the belief of one God as there can only be one God. Simultaneously that’s also not to say their understanding of God is radically different from the Christian understanding.
Lastly by saying it’s a different God leads to stumbling blocks for atheists when the say what God? The God of philosophy and the universe, The God of Muslims, The God of the Jews, the God of Christians?
The simple answer is it’s all the same God with different understandings on the nature of God. Now I think Christians can easily demonstrate this with the God of the Jews and Philosophy being the same Christian God. Touch harder with the Muslim understanding however when being more nuanced about the differences we can further show there is only One God.
Hope that helps
@@drewaskins8377as the Hebrews views on God progresses they learned that their is only ONE God, the True God, God of the Universe. They rejected the Christ so they’re understanding has not developed as much but it’s the same God as the Christians, not a different God
Thanks for giving me this information to meditate. I have been reading how difficult it has been for the missionaries to reach out to the Muslim world and to convert them. In the core of my soul, I pray that more and more Muslims open the eyes of the faith and accept the Trinity. One God (same essence) and three persons (creation, verb, and spirit).
What is that beautiful light behind you on and where can I get one? ❤️ 😊
The channel "Ready To Harvest" did an interesting video called "Are Mormons, Muslims, and Catholics Christian?", and I think it offers interesting overlapping insight into this matter on Christians and Muslims worshipping the same God.
Your analogies made sense to me. I was taken aback when I'd recently read this in the Catechism, but upon giving it a charitable read in order to test my own, admittedly emotional, presupposition I came to a similar understanding. I think we, the laity, and arguably even diocesan clergy tend to think colloquially whereas those that comprise the Magisterium think scholastically. Colloquially, heck no do Christians worship Allah and Muslims worship Jesus. But if you strip away all the preconceptions and associations and dilute the question to its rawest, most basic elements, then the answer is "technically." Perhaps a more palatable way of saying it, for Christians at least, is that Muslims worship Jesus, they just don't realize it (which isn't altogether different from how we might say pagans were worshipping demons and they just didn't realize it).
May God bless you. Thank you for all that you do, and for tackling tough questions like this even knowing you'll get heat for it. The insightful perspective you provide is always worth it!
I don’t think so. If you ask a Muslim if they worship Jesus, what would their response be? You can’t put words in their mouths with some sort of “charitable” interpretation. The only thing that can be said is they “think” they worship the God of Abraham.
Falsehoods are NOT charitable. So it's NOT charitable to claim Catholics and Muslims worship the same God/god.
It honestly seems a bit more of a semantic game than anything. Muslims worship the same god as a catholics as much as the ancient Greeks or the native tribes man. It's sort of similar to when St Thomas said that even the heathen like Aristotle can touch on divine truths.
But just like so much that plagues the post modernist catholic world is ambiguity. One might be able to say that they are the same god technically but all it does is makes things confusing and unclear like many things of this pontificate.
I do not understand why statements like this keep being said when they do nothing but drive people from the faith or lead those of weak faith even further down that path.
It provides no good and is imprudent
@@Rachen1992 can’t argue with that.
@@Rachen1992 The manipulation applied to make the false claim that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God is a semantics game and worse. Technically, Catholics and Muslims DON'T worship the same God. That the Muslim false god has *a few characteristics similar* to the Holy Trinity, does NOT make Allah and the Holy Trinity the same God. Allah is Satan; and Satan mimics Almighty God. So the idols, Satan deceives unbelievers with, will have a few similarities with the One True God.
I believe Dr. E. Michael Jones would agree with this take. Same God, different understanding, which is largely faulty when it comes to Islam. Kudos for tackling this issue, as I can see there are some hurt feelings in the comments over this rather reasoned and sensible argument. Logos is rising!
Not the Same God.
The muslims say Allah is Father to no one, and the only relationship we could have is that of a slave to master. Islams only limit on weather you can have sex with a women is if you are married and you can fit inside her (there is no age limit and they expressly promote polygamy). In islam their have is one of debauchery and unending sex... literally.
In Islam allah literally describes himself as The Greatest of Deceivers. When Mohammed confronted in the cave he believed it was a demon and was going to kill himself to save his soul from possession. Until his Pagan Wife and her brother convinced him that he was a messager of allah.
In the Quran the call Jesus Isa which isn't Jesus's name in Arabic (remember the Quran is supposed to be flawless and without error) it was Yasu. Then there's the fact that hat Mohammed got god to approve of prostitution - sorry "Temporary marriage" for a night so they could lay with whores. Then there is where Allah "spoke" through Mohammed and gave him and his sodiers to rape married women as long as they aren't muslims......NO they aren't the same God.
Oh yeah i can not think of one of gods prophets who married and slept with a child while middle aged. For reference Mohammed was a 53 yr old man who married Aisha at the age of 6 and when she was 9 slept with her. It gets worse she was still playing with dolls and on her swing when he lay with her. In Islam dolls are traditionally considered idolatry so only recognized prepubescent child were allowed to play with them.
Christ took up a chorded whip to drive money lenders and heathens that polluted the temple what would you think he would say to even the thought that Allah and God The Father are the same.
@@miroo4097God in Islam and God in Christianity are both the God of natural theology. Ergo, they're the same.
We concede nothing to the Mahometan by acknowledging this. The one way you'd disprove this is disproving natural theology, which would disprove Catholicism.
@@newglof9558you’d have to explain this further for me to concede this. Mind you, I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m just not convinced.
@mikazoftstrom2343 do you know what natural theology is?
@@newglof9558 from what I remember it’s establishing doctrines from rational arguments rather than revelations. This is why you need to explain your argument better because both Islam and Christianity are based on revelations. So on face-value your argument appears false.
Recently while thinking about this topic acts 17 and John 4 came to my mind. If it can be said that the pagan Athenians worshiped God but did not know him (intimacy) or that the samaritans worshiped what they do not know (intimacy) then can we not extend this same concept to Muslims? Or else would we have to suggest that God was pleased with this pagan worship? Certainly not!
Nice analogy.
Brian you totally nailed it with your analogy. It’s very hard for people that know Islam and Christianity to understand why would someone say is the same God.
It's hard for Christians not for muslims
Acts 17.23 comes to mind.
For as I walked around looking carefully at your shrines, I even discovered an altar inscribed, ‘To an Unknown God.’ What therefore you unknowingly worship, I proclaim to you.
So, according to Saint Paul, even the Ancient Greek could be said to worship the true God - albeit unknowingly.
Just thought about this today and boom. Brian drops a video on it.
Bryan, you're back to normal.
I think a better analogy is having a king and citizens of that country serve and obey the king.
Then comes another person claiming some other random king exists and that's who we should follow.
Both groups say they follow the king as a position but clearly mean different people.
Thus the Christian God is the one true God and the Muslin god is a false god (maybe a demon/fallen angel, maybe just made up by Mohammad) who is trying to claim the same title and is just an imposter.
But wouldn't that analogy gloss over how the Muslims incorporate the Old and New Testaments in their theology? To put it another way: does not their use of many if the same scriptures as Christians and Jews, in addition to their own scriptures (the Qur'an) to explain the nature of what God is and isn't, necessarily imply a shared target of worship with a divergence of understanding of God between the three religions?
The channel "Ready To Harvest" did an interesting video called "Are Mormons, Muslims, and Catholics Christian?", and I think it offers interesting overlapping insight into this matter on Christians and Muslims worshipping the same God.
@@iBringDaLULZ Muslims "incorporate" the Old and New Testaments incorrectly by contradictorily claiming Mohammad was both prophesied about in the Bible but also that the Bible has been corrupted (just to set the record straight, Mohammad is not prophesied about in the Bible [unless you count verses like Matthew 24:24 or Galatians 1:6-9 warning us about false prophets] and we have Biblical manuscripts older than Islam that match up with what we have today so it has not been corrupted).
Mohammad came around claiming to worship the same God, then though his supposed revelation describes a god completely counter to the God of the Bible.
If anything, the god of Islam is just an imposter of the one true God of the Bible. So again same in position but a completely different being.
Claiming Muslims woship the same God as Christians is naive, bordeline blasphemous, and a massive oversimplification.
Keep up the good work Brian. I do understand what you're trying to say and I agree with you. It's just that it's very hard to explain this in a way that everybody understands it in the way the church is teaching it. If the church teaches it,you better believe it if you wanna be free from deception? Satan always strives to get you to disobey or doubt holy mother church because without her you will be deceived. Don't forget that the gates of hell shall not prevail. It is impossible for the Catechism of the Catholic Church to teach error.
@@stingingnettle9726 It doesn't matter if it is dogmatic or not - you are a Protestant heathen not a Christian. We Russian Orthodox don't like this Pope, but it is impossible for him to teach heresy or error from the majesterium!!
@@EasternOrthodox101didn't you just say you're a Muslim?
Disgraceful, lying Mahometan.
The catechism of the Catholic church is part of the teaching magisterium ,therefore it cannot err.
@@danbeaulieu9575 Exactly. These people have no reference at all and are ignorant on the basics of our faith, and I am saying that as an Orthodox. They talk as Protestants. The seat of Peter is infallible schism or not schism!
@@EasternOrthodox101you're a Muslim and you're lying (Taqiyya). All part of your faith, I guess.
I think saying Muslims and Christians worship the same God is just one step further than Protestants claiming that they have unity with each other. It’s essentially saying yeah, we disagree on all of these extremely important doctrines, but if we can figure out one thing we all agree on, such as the Bible being the highest source of authority, we can claim we’re united on that alone.
It’s the same thing between Christianity and Islam. We disagree on almost everything but we at least agree that there is one God who created the universe out of nothing. So we can pretend like the other stuff isn’t important or not something that ultimately “determines salvation” as Protestants say, and therefore we have unity.
I agree. You could call it a cheap tactic to encourage dialogue.
Catholic Answers is a wonderful resource on this;
“However, it is a distortion to claim from this that Muslims do not truly believe in the one true God because it was clearly after having said Muslims “profess to hold the faith of Abraham,” that the Council fathers then declared: “… together with us they adore the one, merciful God…”
These are two distinct declarations:
[Muslims] profess to hold the faith of Abraham.
Together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
Which is false. They don’t worship with us (in fact the Quran calls for our destruction), their prophet followed Satan, their god has different attributes (some of them the opposite) and has teachings more aligned with Satan.
Worshipping “one God” does not mean they worship the “one True God”
@@Arkangilos it isn’t false. Instead of assuming as much perhaps pull up Catholic Answers and get the whole context. I just provided a small snippet.
The Catholic Church has two statements regarding Islam which confirm that “they” (Muslims) worship the God of Abraham *and* “we” (Christians/Muslims) also acknowledge the one true God. The Catholic Church opens up a dialogue with our Muslim neighbors about God by acknowledging the attributes rightfully belonging to the one true God while also distinguishing the false attributes to the God they worship.
Brian, I think Vatican 2 is a little more nuanced than you give it credit for. IIRC, LG says that Muslims CLAIM to worship the God of Abraham. This is quite far from an assertion that they DO, in fact, worship the God of Abraham. Furthermore I do think that one has to ask the question of how far off do you have to be in a description of a person or thing to realize that some one is talking about a different thing. EG: If I were to describe you as a short, fat, dark-skinned man from Nigeria who had a career as a hitman for the mob. I think we would both agree that though I may be applying the name "Brian Holdsworth" to this man; he was absolutely NOT you.
My own working hypothesis is in the middle. The Bible gives us the true image of our Heavenly Father. The Quran describes the same God as seen from the satan's perspective.
@phoenixCatholic5367 Several excellent points! Best refutation of that I have ever read. Additionally, Allah is "the Best of Deceivers," in the Quran, who is "the Father of Lies," in the Bible. And your point that V2 states that Muslims CLAIM to worship the God of Abraham is an important point. Especially since Muslims are supposed to practice TAQIYYA, approved lying to promote Islam.
🇷🇺☦🤝☪️🇵🇸How about stopping with your Islamophobic lies, hah?
All (true/orthodox) Abrahamic religions believe in the same God - YHVH THE FATHER - and only the epistemology which we derive from that fundamental principle is the difference: ours is the correct one, theirs is the corrupted one, but we love all Abrahamic faiths as long as they come from their own original source, while rejecting completely the pagans, Protestants, and reformers of all faiths. I was once accusing the Pope of teaching heresy, but Lofton convinced me that it's impossible, unless you don't believe in the Orthodox doctrines. I don't like this weak Pope as person, but on the seat of St. Peter he doesn't teach heresy, so I refuse to attack him as the fake "Orthodox" do.
_"LG says that Muslims CLAIM to worship the God of Abraham. This is quite far from an assertion that they DO, in fact, worship the God of Abraham."_
I don't know, man. Every time I hear someone say something like this, I imagine a bunch of people praying to God, and the Devil just flying around trying to catch the prayers and intercept them and laughing like Dick Dastardly, because secretly all their prayer power is going to him instead of the intended target of their prayer. If I say a prayer and am intending to pray to the One God, can evil forces just steal it out of my mouth when I had no intention of praying to those evil forces?
@@billbadson7598 You was already discredited as an Islamophobic devil yourself, so I suggest you just🤐And also stop speaking in acronyms like shallow Americans - speak clearly, no one knows what is an LG nor DO!!!
@@billbadson7598 LG should NOT have repeated the false claims of Muslims, especially since Muslims are supposed to lie to promote Islam, called TAQIYYA. Muslims do NOT address their prayers to "the One True God." They address their prayers to Allah, who is the Best of Deceivers in the Quran, and the Father of Lies, Satan, in the Bible. Satan can sometimes answer requests, as we have heard of contracts with the devil.
People nuance a topic to death until it fits into official catholic documents. Any person who doesn't affirm The Trinity, including mormans, Muslims, unitarian, ect, do not believe in the chirstian God. Why is this so hard? I genuinely can't belive the "one true church" doesn't affirm this. Catholism is so divorced from the original Christianity.
Vatican II and the 1993 Catechism are both wrong. Christians and Muslims worship different Gods.
Ecumenism is a slippery slope to heresy.
Your comment seems to implicitly deny that God can be known through natural reason. If the one true God can only be known through the Trinity, and the Trinity cannot be established without recourse to revelation, then we can't recognize the truth of God through natural theology.
@@Forester- You jump to silly conclusions. The Holy Trinity is not a function of natural reason; but Revealed Truth. Islam does not rely on natural reason for it's theology of Allah. Islam has a developed theology of Allah's character, as "having no Son" and being "the Best of Deceivers." Both of those point-blank contradict Catholic theology of the Holy Triune God.
@@francikeen The original comment says that those who do not affirm the Trinity do not believe in the Christian God. The Trinity cannot be established by natural reason, the obvious conclusion of these two points is that the Christian God cannot be found through natural reason. The one true God can be found through natural reason and since we cannot identify the the Trinity apart from revelation we must conclude that anyone who believes in the God of natural theology does believe in the Christian God but has an incomplete view of God. You didn't say anything to demonstrate otherwise.
A very well argued point. Both Christian and Muslim concepts of God, and those of other religions as well) ultimately come from the two things. The logical problem that there must be an uncaused first cause to everything (as St Thomas Aquinas put it. On a deeper level most people understand this even if they can't articulate it). And secondly the "God shaped hole" in all of us, the natural urge to believe, the sense of God or the supernatural or whatever you call it. In atheists it's suppressed and often replaced by other causes, "the environment/nature", "social justice" or sometimes just personal advancement.
That's interesting but ultimately how would you say that the Christian God is true as compared to the Hindu Bhagwan for example?
@@saialluri9582based on this video you can’t make a good argument. The final conclusion is belief not logic
@@jacobortega3424 Ok.
If our God is a trinity, and theirs is not (from their own mouth), then NO we do not worship the same God. If I said to my friend at work, "Hey, do you know Mike?" And they were like, "Yeah, I know Mike. His son is Jimmy right?" "Noooo, this Mike doesn't have a son." Are we talking about the same person? Negative.
Ask a Muslim if we worship the same God. Naïveté can be deadly, my friend.
Which is why I don't form my theological beliefs based on the opinions of Muslims. 😉
@@BrianHoldsworthI would hope not.
Ask a Muslim if the worship the holy Trinity my God was crucified, died and was buried, on the third day rose again. Obviously that doesn’t mean Muslim are not good people but my lord is the king of kings and the prince of peace.
Muslims tend to say all worship goes to allah
Yes, they do. Israelis just inserted lies into Muhammad with remote mind control weapons. They created Islam for an army to fight you.
Doesn't the same argument apply to Judaism?
St. John says the answer is the same. Do they have the Son? If no, then they have not the Father either.
But the differences are fundamental, not superficial, or a difference of emphasis or quantity of worship.
Even though we don't fully understand this teaching you have to believe what the church teaches. In the same way the Church has always taught that there is no salvation outside of The Catholic Church. But everyone should know that It doesn't mean that only Catholics are saved. As soon as you're baptized you are automatically part of the Catholic church even though you are visibly outside of her. But if the Catholic Church ,if it where possible was to go out of existence,
nobody could be saved.
I also understand it to mean that if a non-Catholic were saved, it would not be by their religion, say Buddhist, Hindu, etc., but by the merits of Jesus and His Catholic Church that others can be saved.
You are absolutely correct you understand the teachings of our church
Our God is a God of mercy. Can Islam say this? Don’t think so.
Can judaism say it?
😂
Buddy, you’re some guy who has a UA-cam channel. Don’t get carried away.
The thinking of the Church on some current matters is already dated and decades behind. That's how far and fast things have taken a nose dive.
Well, they proclaim they worship the same god, but the nature of their god is so different, that it might be more honest to just say they're different.
Think of God as the proper hierarchy of values, as put by Jonathan Pageau.
The Chritian God have something like love and logos at the top, while the Islamic Allah have something like might and submission at the top.
The rest of the hierarchy might be the same, but due to the different placement of what's really at the top, it trickles down and twist, so that "the fruit" is all together different.
I have believed that Catholics and Muslims worship very different deities for a very long time. If you look at all of the Prophets in the Bible (and, I would include Jesus in that group. Yes, Jesus is far more the a mere Prophet, prophesy was a big part of His Ministry), they all had a few things in common: 1) the Jews are the chosen people of God; 2) the Jews have strayed from God; and 3) all of the Prophets provided a reconciliation strategy to get the Jews back on track. Yes, the individual prophecies were different in the actual reconciliation strategies but all had the same goal.
Then, around 600 years after Jesus, along came Mohammed. He is presented as another in the long line of Prophets of the same God Jews and Christians worship. Yet, instead of recognizing who the Jews are and helping them to reconcile with God, he proclaimed that Jews are vermin who need to be eradicated.
I can't see how anyone can believe that Christians, Jews and Muslims all worship the same God.
CCC 841
Do you deny the Magisterium of the Catholic Church?
@@newglof9558 Of course not.
If you read CCC 841, you'll see that it says, in part, "these profess to hold the faith of Abraham". That does not mean that they actually _do_ hold the faith of Abraham, just that they profess to hold it. Evidence suggests otherwise.
@@bertpenney3526"profess" is not used in any nuanced or technical sense within the source documents in V2.
We really dont't concede anything by acknowledging this.
Are Arianism and Nestorianism worshipers of different gods too?
@@newglof9558 It doesn't have to be used in any nuanced or technical sense. Profess means to claim something is true that may or may not be true. Maybe Muslims believe that it is true, I don't know. But, this isn't a discussion on whether certain Muslim beliefs are true or not, it's a discussion on whether the god of Islam is the same as the God of Christianity. I believe that they are different, others disagree with me.
Arianism and Nestorianism are both offshoots of Christianity that share most beliefs with Christianity but hold some beliefs that are heretical to Christianity. That does not describe Islam.
@bertpenney3526 You are totally correct!
Great job, Brian. I understood your point and agree. I have relatives who are Muslim and from what i learned from them about Islam is their understanding of God and form of worship is very different but "technically" the same God. It comes down to the way Islam came to be versus the way Christianity came to be. There is good reason to question the legitimacy of Islam based on how it was started. Not getting into that here in the comments.
Anyway Brian, I’d give you the benefit of the doubt if you brushed me off! 😂. I’ve been following you long enough to know you are a very deep thinker, and I’d be surprised if anything commonplace held your attention for more than a moment!
I was always taught that God is still God of the universe… But they believe that he is the master of fighting God. And we believe that he is the loving father God. So the god is the same the belief is different. That’s what I’m thinking.
I'll wait for Michael Loftus to fact check your video 😎
CCC 841
😂😂😂😂
The earliest Christians and Saints who encountered Islam did not treat it as a different religion
They treated it as a Christian Heresy
The belief that Christians and Muslims worship the same God is ancient and dates before Vatican II for centuries.
I don't know if you would find this okay I would hope that you can have a conversation David Wood. There are people that can talk
It is instructive to observe that the Vatican 2 document, Nostra Aetate names the great relion by their theological nomenclature: Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, etc. And when it does so the Council Fathers find something to commend in each of them. But looking closely at the little ecumenical treatise, one finds that Islam, per se, is not theologically extoled. Rather, the virtues of Muslims are outlined: fasting, almsgiving, regular prayer, etc. That is, the people of the religion, and not the system of its thought is treated. This peculiar treatment may reflect that, unlike the other religions, Islam explicitly and essentially repudiates the cross of Jesus. It very simply does, and it cannot be uncharitable to acknowledge a religion's intentional self-disclosure. But if the cross of Jesus is foundationally repudiated (and not, say, peripherally so, as in Rabbinic Judaism) then it becomes more challenging to equate Allah with the Father of Our Lord.
Amazing. This video has been posted 52 minutes ago, and already there are 76 comments as of my posting this one. And what is obvious in the majority of these comments is that the response is to the title of the video, and not the content. Many of ya'll comment with strong opinions without even watching the video! One of the symptoms of our times.....😂😂😂
To be fair, some comment in response to someone else’s comment.
I confess to this. I dont have to watch the video though.
No. Next question please.
Yes, they do. Israelis just inserted lies into Muhammad with remote mind control weapons. They created Islam for an army to fight you.
Next question: how do you square this answer with CCC 841? Do you reject the Magisterium of the Catholic Church?
@@newglof9558 Catechisms are NOT infallible. There are several errors in the CCC. Muslims don't worship the same God as Catholics. Allah is the Best of Deceivers, in the Quran, who is the Father of Lies (Satan), in the Bible.
@@francikeenwhat other errors are there in the CCC? How are you gauging these "errors"?
@newglof9558 I'm a Protestant, so I reject a lot of what the Catholic Church teaches. I was raised Catholic, which is why I find channels like this one interesting.
I think the beginning of this video is very flip about the movement for peace that was occurring at the start of the second Vatican council. I think it forgets the historical context of the second Vatican council. The council began in 1962. It’s the middle of the Cold War where any conflict anywhere in the world is only a few bad decisions away from a nuclear exchange between the US and the USSR. Anyone of an age to participate in the council is a survivor of WW2 in some capacity, either a soldier or a civilian whose world was turned upside down by the largest armed conflict in the history of mankind. They were also in the shadow of perhaps the most violent century in human history. Two world wars which themselves had been precipitated by a series of continental wars. War had also changed. Nationalism and modern firearms meant that war was no longer a thing of lords and knights but draftees and destroyed cities. The first Vatican council itself couldn’t be finished because of the outbreak of the Franco-Prussian war which itself touched off a series of struggles in Central Europe as Germany came into existence. Though our lives today are still touched by war it is not dominated by war the way the lives of the “greatest/silent generations” and those who came before were. Is it any wonder the fathers of the council wanted to help usher in a time of peace?
Id say yes and no. It's a good question. The god of both has similar qualities of essence.
Nope.
Yes, they do. Israelis just inserted lies into Muhammad with remote mind control weapons. They created Islam for an army to fight you.
The Muslim god is the antithesis of the Christian God.
When two persons had a talk with a man, and the first person hears from the man, i have a son, and the second person gets the reply, i have no son. Did the two persons talk to the same man?
Now the first person asks the man how he views other people, and the man responds, i see them as my children, while the second person, asking the same question gets the reply from the man, i view them as my slaves. Did the two persons speak with the same man?
Now i could go and make these comparisons all day, but i think it is better for Xians, to discover these for yourself, since it will then be ten times more powerful.
If we want to reconsile Islam with Christinanity, we would have to let go of so much holiness of God, that would remain is an entity not worthy of worship.
Good points, all. I think they say Islam and Christians worship the same God only in that they both believe it’s the God of Abraham. That’s really the only characteristic the two have in common.
No Catholic is trying to reconcile Islam with Christianity.
_"When two persons had a talk with a man, and the first person hears from the man, i have a son, and the second person gets the reply, i have no son. Did the two persons talk to the same man?"_
Do jews acknowledge Christ as one third of the trinitarian God, or do they consider him a false preacher?
Do jews and christians worship the same God?
@@billbadson7598 Jews acknowledge that the Christ figure is God in the flesh. You can also read that in the bible, old and new testament.
And the 1st commandment the Jews received says±
Shama Yisrael, Yaweh, Eluhenu, Yaweh Echad.
Three Gods, are referenced here, but they are one.
If you have more questions, i am happy to answer them.
@@billbadson7598 Modern rabbinic judaisms have anathematized the "Two Powers" of heaven understanding that many jews of Second Temple period held.
Great metaphor. Makes perfect sense.
We obviously worship the same God but have very different understanding same with Christians many Christians have very different understandings of God but we still worship the same God they just have a false understanding. Also I got distracted skipped back through the video and cut to Brian saying he had to go to the washroom on the video out of context found that funny
Using this logic, we can say people who worship Bal or Hindu Gods are also worshipping the Christian God.
That's actually not correct. Hindu "gods" are not the God of Abraham/God of natural theology. Baal is also distinct from Yahweh in the Bible, so that too doesn’t work.
@@newglof9558 The Muslim god is also NOT the God of Abraham. Even if Muslims CLAIM that; it's NOT true. Allah is the Best of Deceivers in the Quran, who is the Father of Lies (Satan) in the Bible.
@@francikeenif you aren't going to address natural theology proper, I don't care what you have to say
@@newglof9558 You aren't going to address actual theology. I don't about your misinterpretation of natural theology.
@@francikeen _"The Muslim god is also NOT the God of Abraham. Even if Muslims CLAIM that; it's NOT true."_
You are a liar
Jesus did not come for peace but Truth.Peace achieved through lies has no worth whereas truth achieved through harshness is worthy in the eyes of God.
Besides, they don't believe in Son of God, Jesus Christ. They don't believe in Holy Trinity.
How it can be same God?
It's not even God.
Short answer: no
Long answer: also no
No.
Yes, they do. Israelis just inserted lies into Muhammad with remote mind control weapons. They created Islam for an army to fight you.
God is knowable by natural reason. Muslims obviously worship God as they understand Him. They understand Him incompletely to be sure. Even wrong insofar as they deny Catholic Christian dogma.
If I say that god is a female transgender whose has 2 natures: good and evil. He blesses and he brings evil. Can I then say that that god is the same as the Christian God because those who worship this other god are actually worshiping the Christian God but they just have an incomplete understanding of God? The Christian God is the one true Triune God, the other most likely a demon. In order for the Muslims and Christians to worship the same God, both gods MUST have the same nature.
@bclarke57 that depends: did you arrive to your conclusion via natural theology?
@@affel6559 Allah is the Best of Deceivers, in the Quran, who is the Father of Lies (Satan), in the Bible. Totally different Gods. Muslims don't worship the Holy Triune God, who is Love & Truth. Muslims worship a god of fortresses. (Daniel 11:38)
I don't find this as a good explanation it seems like the same argument he uses to disqualify Islam is the same argument that Protestants used to disqualify Catholics from being Christian because there is an emphasis on works .
The Magesterium teaches this because it's true. Like the Jewish faith, our religions disagree about the nature and commandments of God, but anyone practicing a non-Abrahamic religion would immediately spot the family resemblance.
Sorry brother, but if we are to follow what you just described, then the Israelites should not have been judged for making the golden calf -- they were "to some degree approaching the same God", as you claim at 7:50. HOWEVER, *_"All the gods of the nations are idols",_* is David's claim.
This has been happening over the last 60 years. If you know what is in the koran, it does not appear to be the same God. I would like to know what was the magesterium before Vat. 2. I was brought up that we could not go to any other service at any time.
Vatican II. is not wrong. We both worship the God of Abraham, but they have some horrible views about him.
Vatican 2 that explains alot
Jews, Muslims, and Christians do worship the same God (the father, Christian word) but not with the inclusion of the trinity.
No!
Yes, they do. Israelis just inserted lies into Muhammad with remote mind control weapons. They created Islam for an army to fight you.
CCC 841
Do you reject the Magisterium of the Catholic Church?
@@newglof9558 Catechisms are NOT infallible. The CCC is wrong in several places. The answer is NO.
@@francikeen caught
@@yvonetubla7682 Did you catch my drift?
I won't unsubscribe but I did dislike.
I can't square V2 with 1 John 22-23.
If you deny the Son you deny the father. How can you worship a father you deny? Bishop Athanasius Schneider agrees with my position btw.
Yes, they do. Israelis just inserted lies into Muhammad with remote mind control weapons. They created Islam for an army to fight you.
It's possible to direct worship towards God without knowing him accurately and without that worship being of much merit - again the Cain and Abel example in the video. That's the argument made in the video. Please reconsider your reaction.
Cain and Able clearly worshiped the Same God, but it's 2023 and the Trinity has been revealed. The Bible clearly says if you deny the Father you deny the Son. Bishop Athanasius Schneider takes this position in his book Credo. Which does have an imprimatur.
@@BrianHoldsworth You are wrong. Allah is the Best of Deceivers, per the Quran, who is the Father of Lies (Satan), per the Bible. Totally different Gods. And "Allah has no son," per the Quran. Islam denies the Son, so they deny the Father. You deny the truth.
@@francikeenyou're hysterical
.
My impression of you is based on a video featuring Laura Horn with a red towel on her head. Are you telling me that that is wrong?
Please explain meaning of:
Exodus 20 3-4 You shall have no other gods before me.
For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God.
In context, God was talking to the Jews when they were pagans. In the context of this video, Muslims accept the God of Abraham which makes them believers in God. Plus, the Catholic Church teaches clearly that they do believe in God:
Catechism of The Catholic Church 841
"The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
Christians and Muslims do not worship the same God.
CCC 841
Do you deny the Magisterium of the Catholic Church?
@@veeveejjGod in Islam and God in Catholicism are both the God of natural theology and are the same.
This does not mean that the Mahometan understanding of God is correct. I, too, am disgusted with their fallacious understanding of God.
With that said, it's still the God of Abraham. It's still heretical. I don't know why Christians get so bent out of shape about this.
You concede nothing to the Mahometan by acknowledging this. In fact, you deny a Dawahgandist a whole line of propaganda by acknowledging this.
@@veeveejjwhy was it understood as a Christian heresy for the first millennium of its existence?
@@veeveejjthat's great and all, but what part of that claimed that Christians and Mahometans don't worship the same God?
You guys think these concedes so much more than it does. Islam is a false religion and Mahomet was a liar, murderer, pdf file, false prophet who was likely under demonic influence.
With that said, Islam and Christianity are both natural theology religions. Ergo, the God in each religion is the God of natural theology.
The revelations are different, so there's irreconcilable differences about the nature of the God of natural theology between these two groups. Differences aside, it's still the same God.
You kvetching about how terrible Islam is isn't going to convince me (a. Because I know how terrible Islam is, and b. It doesn’t actually argue with mine or the Church's main point here).
Try again.
@@newglof9558 The CCC is NOT Infallible and it is WRONG. Catholics and Muslims don't worship the same God.
They worship demons, not the same God. Moreover, how can you square this with "he who denies the son denies the father"? Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future by Fr. Seraphim Rose is a great book on exactly this topic. Highly recommend.
There's a separate argument to be made that the quran is a demonic revelation but that wouldn't mean that by natural theology Muslims didn't come to eventually understand that there's only one God
I guess Jews worship a different God because they don't acknowledge the Son?
Every single Hadith in islam that writes negative things about woemn were written by Christians 300 years after the prophets death. Become chaste for 5 -10 years and then study the Koran. God will open the truth for you only if you are worthy enough for his hevean . For that you need to be pure hearted. Truth be told you will always hate Islam or maybe all religion as a matter of fact. Make your heart pure. Become absolutely chaste. Body and heart. Do not do any sin even by biblical laws. Do not watch any lewd films or have any sort of acts that makes you worship another human being. For example thinking of people or getting into sexual relationships with someone. Stay sinless for one or two years and I swear on my life that you will become a believer of God and maybe even Islam. I have seen people who I have shown a million evidence to get them into believing in God religion Islam or even Christianity or Judaism which also came from the same god of Abraham, but they all hated religion even more violently. Then I realized god doesn't want them to worship Him or call into Him because God only allows the free hearted the sinless to believe in Him and come inside His religion. I promise you indeed you will become a believer if you become absolutely sinless. I challenge you to do it. And you know the funny part? Many many Muslims I personally know my own neighbors and my college classmates left Islam and completely started a war against all Muslims and Islam despite growing up in a very religious environment and being Muslim all their lives. I was so scared I thought once what if I become like them all? Then I realized that they all started sinning ,
sexual relationships with partners worshipping their lovers ,illicit erotic films, masturbating etc. I literally took at least several dozen interviews of ex Muslims and I swear every one of them were involved in some kind of sin. Yes some Muslims sin too but maybe they forget or repent really sincerely or feel so guilty that somehow god still keeps them inside religion because of their remorse but these people were proud sinners and they all I mean every single one of them left god and His religion. And I think these people are sexually active and still in islam are too dumb to obsess over sex. So please don't be upset at me and follow my challenge for one year to 5 years and come back and tell me if your heart is still the same. It’s not worth it to lose a true religion because of worshipping some lover. Every lover will take another lover the day you die. Why worship their body and leave religion. Why not try my challenge? You can fool everyone but never yourself or God. God only wants the purest heart to worship him and thus he makes everyone who is obsessed with selfish desire or lust or too much worshipping of other humans and too less love to leave the folds of his religion.
_"They worship demons, not the same God. Moreover, how can you square this with "he who denies the son denies the father"?_
Do jews worship the same God as Christians?
Modern Jews? No. The Jewish prophets and kings? They are Christian and worship the same God.
Dawkins is a master of rhetoric, but his reasoning leaves much to be desired.
Paraphrasing his quip: I don’t believe 2+2 equals 3, or 5, or pi, or Graham’s number; so I would be justified in rejecting one more answer, namely 4.
Crazy that whenever anyone talks about the Vatican too they have to preface it with saying that it was valid.
lol no.
Here it is in Spanish: lol no
Yes, they do. Israelis just inserted lies into Muhammad with remote mind control weapons. They created Islam for an army to fight you.
NO, their god is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; the TRIUNE GOD.
Yes, they do. Israelis just inserted lies into Muhammad with remote mind control weapons. They created Islam for an army to fight you.
Why not? How do you know?
@@markpugner9716 history and by reading their koran. Nope, not the same God.
@@rraddena But why not?
@@markpugner9716 I told you.
Naturally your answer makes me disagree. However Ill be open to your idea. Good vid nonetheless. 👍
You have to make distinction between pray and worship
Because worship required sacrifice and pray don't need to
Short answer: no.
Long answer: quran 5:116 and quran 4:171
I recommend The Critical quran by Robert Spencer. And hey look up "god's two right hands" too its wild!
Are you saying that it's because they reject the divinity of Jesus?
Short answer: NO, NO, NO !
For the details watch full video ;)
Yes, they do. Israelis just inserted lies into Muhammad with remote mind control weapons. They created Islam for an army to fight you.
I see it this way that Christians and Muslims worship the same God, but we have different perceptions of who or what God is. About the Muslims it can be said that they lack a clearer understanding of who God is. The Christian God is a father, while the Muslim Allah is a distant and impersonal spirit force that requires submission. The paternal and almost human, Christian God gives us love.
Muslims, Christians, and Jews worhip the same god (which Christians call "the father"), Allah is just the Arabic translation to the word "God", just like how "Elohim" is the Hebrew translation to the word "God" .. only difference is muslims believe jesus is not the son of God, but a prophet of God, a prophet that they love as much as Muhammad, they do not believe that a God can die or rest or need to sleep or eat or drink like how jesus died and slept and ate
❤
Facts. Even the Catholic Church teaches this...
CCC 841 "The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
No the islam is an arian heresy
Yes, they do. Israelis just inserted lies into Muhammad with remote mind control weapons. They created Islam for an army to fight you.
islam is a nestorian heresy.
By calling it a heresy you are implying it is the same God that it is being worshipped.
@@RedOblivion7do Christians and Muslims both not worship the God of natural theology?
@@newglof9558 I am responding to the fact that he said no