I’m definitely not an engine builder but I always laugh when people brag about spending all sorts of extra money on engine parts and literally drive their cars to car shows putting maybe 500 miles a year on the car just putting along. Like WTF did you overbuild the engine? 🤷♂️ I mean the original/ stock components usually lasted 100k miles getting beat on by 19 year old kids back in the day 🤣 I get it if you’re bracket racing for $5k a race but FFS just keep it a simple build like this.
I never tire of seeing your videos; using the tools and parts you can "make work" without buying a bunch of new and expensive parts that wouldn't perform any better.
All the great engine guys of the past always tried different things. I remember seeing one engine where they took and reversed intake and exhaust. The intake was in the place of the exhaust manifold and headers were made to come out of intake. Yes two intake manifolds were needed. But what a great looking engine. Keep doing what you're doing. Purist can go to another channel. Love what you are doing.
I have done several cleveland head swaps onto windsor blocks using cleveland 2bbl and 4bbl heads. This concept is really interesting. I will keep watching your progress. I like the whole concept of mix and match used salvage parts.
I have made over 400 to the wheels through a C6 and a 9” using the iron intake, heads and crank. The weight and thermal benefits are the only reason to use aluminum heads. I like the project and will be watching the progress.
Love this project. Its awesome how you’re trying something new that takes a fair bit of planning and work. You’re totally right to give “the look” to the Cleaveland fan boys who think their cast iron head is the holy grail of heads(its not). Plenty of hot rodders have swapped parts and put after market heads on their project, you’re just willing to go the extra mile and make something else work by doing the work yourself rather than buying someone else’s work. It’ll be interesting to see this all finished and on the dyno. I’m glad you’re having fun with this!
Thats what its about seeing if we can improve on whats there. Im sure a few will take it wrong and get mad but if you look at what it takes in money to make them really work it makes no sense with the mass of 385 series engines that already have thicker cylinder walls,bigger bores, larger main webs and longer strokes to actually use a port of that size. I look forward to seeing how it goes forward
@ I’m glad you’re willing to blaze new trail and try something cool. It ain’t the first time the “other guy’s” stuff found it inside a different brands block. Chevrolet H beam rods in a mopar block comes to mind along with countless other examples. Doesn’t matter what the brand, they rarely ever did it “right” they did what was PROFITABLE. There isn’t a motor out there from factory that can’t be given yo enthusiasts to get even more out of it.
I am thinking that building a tubular or sheet metal intake is easier than trying to cut and weld a cast intake back together. You'd still have to fabricate a plenum either way. Plasma or CNC not needed to make flanges>>just time with a drill, saw and file. If you are making many, then sure. I'm not an aluminum welder so I would end up with a pile of melted aluminum for either. You probably could have made the valley cover yourself. Aluminum is soft and will cut with a good fine tooth blade on a table saw (it will gum up some) with file work to finish.
Remember, only a small portion of the viewers comment, and what drives most comments is negative emotion. As I'm watching this there are 2,400 views and ONLY 193 comments. Don't feel like you need to address every hater who isn't trying to do something out of the box themselves. You do you and we'll follow along. 😊
I think this is great, I hope you’re able to get it running and make some good power, keep these motors alive. It’s better than buying junk Chinese heads for the Cleveland
I was a young man in the early 70's, at that time the 351C 4V heads were outstanding for street racing and high rpm use but for average driving the 2V were better. Technology has changed the the popularity of the LT n LS engines are proof. Making the intake would be fun and it should be a great at the track. You might want to pick up a cheap small block Chevy tunnel ram and adapt the top half to the bottom you have, it's probably the cheapest way. Just an idea
We are definitely at a peak with the pushrod engines in oem form with the LT and the godzilla ford engines I believe both have almost identical cylinder head designs
You're a very talented man and I appreciate your videos. Perhaps I'm slow, but I'm not sure why the end result will be worth all this effort and expense.
I don’t see why people get so butt hurt over a GM engine in a ford but will put a powerglide in a ford or a ford 9 in in a dodge ect. That’s how hot rodding was born, guys took whatever powerful engine they could find and stuffed it in a light car.
Good job I have done some work on a Oldsmobile 350 diesel by using gas head and 312 ford block with 351C head on that note the intake I had to make them myself the worst one I done was 351W with 326 hemi head lots of welding a intake up 👍
What we used to do here in Aust. with 4V heads was epoxy the inlet port floor to reduce port size plus epoxy inlet manifold to suit ended up flowing 321CFM inlet and 219CFM exhaust at 600 thou cam lift. With low gears it certainly wakes them up
Im liking the idea of a fabricated sheet aluminum tunnel ram. It's too bad you don't have a spool gun or a TIG machine, then you could build it however you want .
Morning Russ, love this build more and more each time,I get your idea build a good reliable drag and drive engine on a shoe string budget,I to am a Chrysler guy but I have 3/4 ton Ford that I would.not sell for anything but I also have a 2010 Chrysler 300 and love that car as well project cars 68 dart 6 cyl. 69 satellite 318 3sp and a74 d100 that my son and are building with a 440 4speed and last but not least 70 Fairlane 302 auto lots of work that onegot it out of junk yard nothing missing but hit hard on the right side, for you guys that think is some new (sorry Russ)go vice grip garage Derek put LS heads on a 318 turned out way cool. Russ love this build. Has it got a home the way the 66 is coming along maybe? Ok God bless and peace out
Russ you could cut and grind and make an I make an I take for it or make a mold and pour an intake. Which ever way you make it great. I will like it. If you make your own mold it may nicer results. I am not a molder. Russ this is a nice video
@HotRodGuyGarage there's another channel where he is doing the same thing you are but with the 351w so I am following him to see how it works out, same guy that did the ls351 build that je turbocharged and made 450hp on the stock bottom end with 317 6.0 heads. He did say the custom cam was big money though. I did find a set on marketplace for 200 complete and porbably going today to grab them.
@@HotRodGuyGarage that's what I am seeing. I have a set of worked over 243 heads from my 2002 Camaro thats torn into a million pieces at the moment but my Ranger is my main project. I did email you the pictures of the floor, sorry it took me so long
Great job so far! Look at the guys who fab up LS heads for the 300 six. No comparison to the stock 300 head. You hit it right on the head about cost. Dollar to dollar a Big Block Chevy would make a lot more horsepower than a Cleveland, and a little more power than 385 series big block. But like he says, one engine doesn’t fit everyone’s goal. On the other hand a Cleveland with CHI heads will usually make fifty more horsepower than an equivalent Windsor, maybe more. So do what makes you happy.
I've played with the Cleveland platform in the past. Made then run fairly well too. But when you get that engine running, I bet it would run rings around the iron 4V heads I ran. I also had a fairly stout 2V headed Cleveland too. I'm running a Windsor these days and enjoy it. It's basically a stock 1970 spec long block with a few bolt on's. Nice running street driver, not really fast but fun. Oh, I'm also working on a 428CJ 70 Cougar. I'm sure that one will be punishment for something I did when I was young.
To improve the alignment on the bank to bank offset could you buy another cheap intake, cut it in half like the first and combine 2 lefts or 2 rights? I can't tell if that would change it from the video :)
Personally I would use adapter spacers to adapt a clevland intake to the heads. The problem I see with making the LT intake work would be fuel distribution using a carburetor with having those ports shifted like that 🤔
Hey man I would go the high ram route. There are videos of Lt heads going on a Windsor and they do a decent job of piecing it back together and shearer fab sells just the high ram mounting flange to weld on tops
The video is 351LT part 2. From GMTgearHDs. You might get some good ideas from that. Good luck. At least then you can put any high ram lid on there you want
Its not different than using a Brodix or any aftermarket cylinder head, If it fits then awesome, drag racing of yesteryear was always trying different heads etc. in search of power, we ran AMC's with modded Chrysler heads. Awesome content..
have you looked at the possibility of welding mating flanges onto a narrower boss 302 intake? when I made a valley plate for mine I tapped the 1/2-20 holes in the block to bolt it down. It looks like the holes were cast there for that purpose. what scares me is any change in the exhaust, I had to make custom parts for my clutch linkages and have no room in my 68 Mustang, port locations and the spark plugs look way different. maybe some 302 headers?
@@HotRodGuyGarage I don't think so, the tubes would have to move up considerably and to the rear, right into my equalizer bar and fork. I have a T-5 on a small block bellhousing. I would have to go hydraulic in a T-5 bell housing. the Lt heads also angle back like a Windsor. reflanging '69 351Windsor tubes may work.
Don't get me wrong I love this sort of thing, and I can't wait to see how this performs. However having built a fair number of Clevelands the bottom end of these engines have major major problems that must be addressed. Sure these Clevelands can make a ton of power and can be spun up to 10k rpms with stock cast crank however extensive oil system modifications are required including running an external oil manifold to oil the mains. These blocks have to be sleeved and filled with cement. As much as I love the Clevelands I have to admit they need a ton of work to make them reliable, the only good thing about them was the heads, however the Cleveland heads required a fair bit of work on the exhaust side to get them to flow worth a damn. Back then we didn't have much in the way of aftermarket heads, these Cleveland heads could make great power and we spent the time and money to get the bottom end to survive. The last one of these I built went into a cobra it was an absolute animal. No idea how much power it made but that car was absolutely scary, I'd estimate it made around 700 HP at 9500 rpm, it had no low end torque was like a 2 stroke dirt bike engine nothing till she hit 6,500 the it just ripped, obviously perfect for a lightweight car like a cobra with a manual transmission. You just kept the rpms up around 7000 at all times and drove it like a rental 🤣.
Ford bore spacing is close between Windsor, Cleveland and 4.9 inline.. I’ve heard of installing two Cleveland heads and Cleveland style pistons in a 4.9
I was thinking this could work on a windsor block too until i realized the intake manifold on them is "wet" so a coolant flow solution would be necessary
What is the cost of the custom ground camshaft and the direct injection system needed for this conversion compared to the cost of aftermarket Ford heads?
Though I haven't experienced 1000 RWHP, I can't see that in a car that doesn't have all the bells and whistle traction control and such. On my 94 turbo Mustang cobra I run 9 lbs and 466 RWHP, and it's too easy to bust the 315's off and get sideways. So, I can understand where you are coming from, 500 seems reasonable for a really fun car. Solving the intake problem will be interesting, maybe getting some guidance from Daisy would be helpful...lol
I can tell you with utmost certainty that having 650 hp at the crank is uncontrollable, even with massive Michelin sport cup 2 tires, and all the computer controls imaginable, you cannot get nor keep traction to use more than say 4-500 hp. Sure if the car is set up specifically for drag racing with massive slick tires on a sticky prepped track and some type of adjustable suspension, then you’re golden. But anymore than say 500 is a waste on the street. But what do I know 🤷♂️
My dream car would be a Porsche GT3RS which is the N/A version of the GT2RS. Why, 🤷♂️ because I’d rather use 💯 or near all than only ever use 1/2 of the GT2RS forced air. But no way I’m spending $150-225k on a Volkswagen POS car 🤣
All the people that overreact to what you are doing really haven't had to do ANYTHING on a budget. I have made things work for more years than I care to admit. Your idea and the way you are going about it is the very roots of hot rodding. From Offenhauser to Duntove on up through Vic Edelbrock it was an idea to make things better for less money that made hot rodding. As for your intake issue, have you thought about building your own from tube and flat plate? I've made a few oddball exhaust headers and even an carb adapter or two just using basic tools and a die grinder. Might be interesting to see what you could come up with. Just something to think about.
As a Ford guy fuck it I’m really interested to see this work. I’d be interested in a comparison of the Edelbrock “3V” Cleveland heads to the LT’s. People getting butt hurt, this is just one of those “a couple guys having too many beers let’s see if something works” and the idea gets in your head and you’ve got to try it that’s what Hot Roding is all about, adaptation and modification. Without guys like this the flathead Ford never would’ve got to where it did and neither would our toys
Can tou hold a cleveland intake over those heads to see if adapters would work? Just thinking if i built the china wall up and had 90* adapters, i could bolt on a stock 4v intake/carb. Real sleeper then😂😂
@ wow… no way to “hide” that with a stock intake and paint, huh?😂 Can’t wait until you fire it up, have a buddy with a couple of clevelands following you and i have a milling machine and lathe, so…😁
Is there an advantage to using a Cleveland bottom end over anLS bottom end. I thought the LS bottom end was plenty strong. With the cross bolt Y block isn’t it better?
I am curious to see if the time and $$ spent will be more cost effective than it would have been to just buy a set of heads and be done with it already. But then if you did that, you wouldn’t have content to film. I have a 70 351 Cleveland 4bbl with stock heads. . Good enough for me.
I would build a sheet metal tunnel ram. I think you will have less time and less work in that in the long run. I think you’ll make good power with the combo
At 6:40 mark, that Alabama tag with 42 for the starting numbers means Lawrence County, Alabama! (I'm from Caddo/Trinity area) I noticed all the Tennessee tags and then saw the glorious 42 Bama tag!! ❤ (I'm in east Tennessee now)... I was trying to place the accent (unsuccessfully mind) but may have a general regional area... 🤷♂️ (I'm a 400 Ford guy myself so I dig all this)
I have had both 1971 351C's 2v and 4v closed chamber motors. The 2v's way better on the street. Pulls way harder than 4v up to 4500rpm. Had same cams and carbs on both engines.
Ok so let's see how it all looks from the bottom of the block. I'm not against any of your idea I'm just not convinced yet 😊. I'm gonna let a few other people in on your idea 💡😊
@@HotRodGuyGarage It looks expensive and time consuming, but it will all be worth it when it is running. I am glad you are doing it and I am sure many are. I know I am learning a lot.
@@frizzellracing I added the Paxton Novi 2000 “cold air intake” to help things really breath. I definitely recommend it. I bolted that motor shut 15 years and 40k ago and it hasn’t skipped a single beat but it has a tendency to eat tires
That's one thing that has bothered me about Ford; especially the 1975-78 era, why there was even a 'need' for any species of 335 series V8 since the 351W covered the 351M and the 429-2V would've done the same for the 400C.
Any one that knows Cleveland racing history knows that they had massive ports, with terrible port placement. They could not use the port volume due to that problem. They would flow better when the bottoms of the ports were filled in on both intake and exhaust.
I love the 351C, but it's not a budget platform. Too many Windsor blocks and aftermarket parts on the market to build a Cleveland based anything these days. You could probably sell your incomplete Cleveland for more than enough to build a complete 302-357 stroker that would produce the low speed torque you're looking for. That said, if I had the parts and your ability, I'd probably build something foolish/ experimental like a Clevor 302 to turbocharge.
They have potential, they just dont have enough cubes for the 4v heads. I tried to sell this one (give it away) for over 10 years before I even touched it. I decided to just go this route to see what happens with it
Uhm, Okay. Why ? I remember the 60s/70s. When "back yard" engineering was the foundation of improvements. But today ? Other than a dare or just to do it ? Are you saying ford heads suck ?
Give it up guy, no matter what you do to a pos ford you will not make a difference a pos ford will always be a pos ford stop waisting your time life's too short 😂
Interested in this project? youtube.com/@hotrodguygarage?si=emSnV6MGUAPCukny?sub_confirmation=1
My Pops used to say "a motor doesn't know what name is stamped on the rocker box".
He was right.
Well done as always thinking outside the box.
I’m definitely not an engine builder but I always laugh when people brag about spending all sorts of extra money on engine parts and literally drive their cars to car shows putting maybe 500 miles a year on the car just putting along. Like WTF did you overbuild the engine? 🤷♂️ I mean the original/ stock components usually lasted 100k miles getting beat on by 19 year old kids back in the day 🤣 I get it if you’re bracket racing for $5k a race but FFS just keep it a simple build like this.
@tomstail absolutely true
I never tire of seeing your videos; using the tools and parts you can "make work" without buying a bunch of new and expensive parts that wouldn't perform any better.
Thanks, I try to make the most of what I have.
I love the content, the "imagineering " I'm a Dodge guy. I like the out of the box thinking! Pure hot rodding!
Sometimes the stuff outside the box is worth exploring
Remember, Louis and Arthur Chevrolet got started in the car biz by making Ford performance parts. Great work so far.
Nothing new ever came from staying inside the box
The essence of a Hot Rodder.. The inguinity to make it work.. grinders, drills, saws, files and a welder machine.. making it work.
Gotta do what you gotta do!
Gives a new meaning to
BUILT NOT BOUGHT! GOOD SHOW BROTHER ,KEEP IT UP !
Thanks man! I appreciate the support.
All the great engine guys of the past always tried different things. I remember seeing one engine where they took and reversed intake and exhaust. The intake was in the place of the exhaust manifold and headers were made to come out of intake. Yes two intake manifolds were needed. But what a great looking engine. Keep doing what you're doing. Purist can go to another channel. Love what you are doing.
Agreed , ive seen some cool stuff over the years by people who aren't afraid to think outside the box
It is interesting to see how things are progressing. I know you are a long way off but, can't wait to see this engine running!
I am looking forward to getting it running as well. Only thing holding it back right now is time
I dont usually have much interest in Ford builds. However, this project is super cool! Awesome, out of the box idea! I love this stuff!!
Appreciate you watching, hopefully it will come together soon
I hope you all the best for your ability to dream and bring it to reality. I look forward to seeing you make your on tunnel ram intake. 👍
Appreciate that, and I hope it works out.
I trust your skills and the process, you have done the math....Have a great week.
Thanks, and it seems promising
I have done several cleveland head swaps onto windsor blocks using cleveland 2bbl and 4bbl heads. This concept is really interesting. I will keep watching your progress. I like the whole concept of mix and match used salvage parts.
I’m glad you're interested, lots of good potential here.
if they work on a Cleveland they should go on a Windsor if you can get the water out
Making parts work with each other no matter the brand is true hot rodding luv ya work keep it coming cheers
Thanks! That's what it's all about.
Hellye like the engine you gave me the idea to build my 351m engine like that
Would be great for the forgotten 351 and 400m
Ordered a Hot Rod Guy Garage shirt & hat...❤ Good quality !
Thanks! I'm glad you like them!
I have made over 400 to the wheels through a C6 and a 9” using the iron intake, heads and crank. The weight and thermal benefits are the only reason to use aluminum heads. I like the project and will be watching the progress.
Definitely some potential in weight savings and the port designs i believe
The update I've been waiting for. Please don't give up. We all want to see how cheaply you can make this thing run.
So far ive got less than 600 bucks into it
Great detail. Keep up the great work 👍
Appreciate the support, let's see where it goes.
Diehard Cleveland guy here and I'm fascinated. Keep it up.
Appreciate the support!
me too, but I hate to pay what they want for aluminum Cleveland heads
I'm a Ford guy at heart but I find it interesting what you're doing here!
Thanks, i believe itbhas potential
Love this project. Its awesome how you’re trying something new that takes a fair bit of planning and work.
You’re totally right to give “the look” to the Cleaveland fan boys who think their cast iron head is the holy grail of heads(its not). Plenty of hot rodders have swapped parts and put after market heads on their project, you’re just willing to go the extra mile and make something else work by doing the work yourself rather than buying someone else’s work.
It’ll be interesting to see this all finished and on the dyno.
I’m glad you’re having fun with this!
Thats what its about seeing if we can improve on whats there. Im sure a few will take it wrong and get mad but if you look at what it takes in money to make them really work it makes no sense with the mass of 385 series engines that already have thicker cylinder walls,bigger bores, larger main webs and longer strokes to actually use a port of that size.
I look forward to seeing how it goes forward
@ I’m glad you’re willing to blaze new trail and try something cool. It ain’t the first time the “other guy’s” stuff found it inside a different brands block. Chevrolet H beam rods in a mopar block comes to mind along with countless other examples.
Doesn’t matter what the brand, they rarely ever did it “right” they did what was PROFITABLE. There isn’t a motor out there from factory that can’t be given yo enthusiasts to get even more out of it.
Agreed
I am thinking that building a tubular or sheet metal intake is easier than trying to cut and weld a cast intake back together. You'd still have to fabricate a plenum either way. Plasma or CNC not needed to make flanges>>just time with a drill, saw and file. If you are making many, then sure. I'm not an aluminum welder so I would end up with a pile of melted aluminum for either. You probably could have made the valley cover yourself. Aluminum is soft and will cut with a good fine tooth blade on a table saw (it will gum up some) with file work to finish.
Your probably right on the intake and absolutely i could had made the valley cover with simple tools it isnt overly complex
Remember, only a small portion of the viewers comment, and what drives most comments is negative emotion. As I'm watching this there are 2,400 views and ONLY 193 comments. Don't feel like you need to address every hater who isn't trying to do something out of the box themselves. You do you and we'll follow along. 😊
Appreciate it
I think this is great, I hope you’re able to get it running and make some good power, keep these motors alive. It’s better than buying junk Chinese heads for the Cleveland
Absolutely a better option then a set of speedmaster heads
Yes, the speedmaster heads and intakes are tempting but the quality seems to be really low.
Very interesting project cheers russ 😊
Appreciate that!
😎
I was a young man in the early 70's, at that time the 351C 4V heads were outstanding for street racing and high rpm use but for average driving the 2V were better. Technology has changed the the popularity of the LT n LS engines are proof. Making the intake would be fun and it should be a great at the track. You might want to pick up a cheap small block Chevy tunnel ram and adapt the top half to the bottom you have, it's probably the cheapest way. Just an idea
We are definitely at a peak with the pushrod engines in oem form with the LT and the godzilla ford engines I believe both have almost identical cylinder head designs
I am ready to see this run! It is exciting.
Me too!
This is going to be one awesome engine.
I sure hope so
i admire the ambition. i hope it works out
It should so lets hope
The Olds 3port head was a hot setup on the Model T. Thanks for keeping the junkyard in HotRodding, its where it all started.
Thanks for the support
You're a very talented man and I appreciate your videos. Perhaps I'm slow, but I'm not sure why the end result will be worth all this effort and expense.
So far theres less then 600.00 into this with 400 being into the intake
Refreshing to see someone thinking outside the box
Appreciate that
I don’t see why people get so butt hurt over a GM engine in a ford but will put a powerglide in a ford or a ford 9 in in a dodge ect. That’s how hot rodding was born, guys took whatever powerful engine they could find and stuffed it in a light car.
Agreed , use the best of whats out there inexpensive as possible
awesome! can't wait to see it come together!
Working on it
I have confidence in you...
Appreciate that
Excellent vid. This engine will be a mixture of different car maker parts but will be a great runing engine that you designed and built.
It should be a fun and hopefully powerful combo
Good job I have done some work on a Oldsmobile 350 diesel by using gas head and 312 ford block with 351C head on that note the intake I had to make them myself the worst one I done was 351W with 326 hemi head lots of welding a intake up 👍
Sounds like you've had some interesting projects!
Fantastic job!
Thanks
What we used to do here in Aust. with 4V heads was epoxy the inlet port floor to reduce port size plus epoxy inlet manifold to suit ended up flowing 321CFM inlet and 219CFM exhaust at 600 thou cam lift. With low gears it certainly wakes them up
The 4v heads definitely have potential with some work as youve seen. I'm hoping these will do about the same with some light mods
Way to go ! Great idea this could be sold as a kit , good come backs for the critics.
I think it has great potential even though some cant see it for the blinders 😎
Back in the 70s for street yes, a good head, they did have a big problem! Bob Glidden spent a lot of time fixing them. Now aluminum heads come fixed.
Without, glidden,roush and a few others the cleveland would had faded into nothing in the US
Im liking the idea of a fabricated sheet aluminum tunnel ram. It's too bad you don't have a spool gun or a TIG machine, then you could build it however you want .
We will see what the future holds i feel its gonna need one
Towards the end of the month HF is having a sale on their Tig, I think it was $850 🤷♂️ check out “Den of Tools” for the detail s
Morning Russ, love this build more and more each time,I get your idea build a good reliable drag and drive engine on a shoe string budget,I to am a Chrysler guy but I have 3/4 ton Ford that I would.not sell for anything but I also have a 2010 Chrysler 300 and love that car as well project cars 68 dart 6 cyl. 69 satellite 318 3sp and a74 d100 that my son and are building with a 440 4speed and last but not least 70 Fairlane 302 auto lots of work that onegot it out of junk yard nothing missing but hit hard on the right side, for you guys that think is some new (sorry Russ)go vice grip garage Derek put LS heads on a 318 turned out way cool. Russ love this build. Has it got a home the way the 66 is coming along maybe? Ok God bless and peace out
Not sure if it is going in the torino or the 66 yet just have to see how things progress from here
Been waiting for this one
Fixing to send them out for some cleanup and a valve job
Russ you could cut and grind and make an I make an I take for it or make a mold and pour an intake. Which ever way you make it great. I will like it. If you make your own mold it may nicer results. I am not a molder. Russ this is a nice video
Ive thought about that also
Maybe you could use the center out of a victor jr. intake or something similar.
Keep up the great work!
Definitely possible
Hell yeah, put that in a Chevrolet!! The swap alone would hurt so many feelings.
Could for sure
You have me looking for a set now every time I go to the junkyard lmao.
Irrc you can even get then new for dirt
@HotRodGuyGarage there's another channel where he is doing the same thing you are but with the 351w so I am following him to see how it works out, same guy that did the ls351 build that je turbocharged and made 450hp on the stock bottom end with 317 6.0 heads. He did say the custom cam was big money though. I did find a set on marketplace for 200 complete and porbably going today to grab them.
@damianlindsey6177 the difference between the lt and ls heads are the valve layout, no custom cam needed for the LT head
@@HotRodGuyGarage that's what I am seeing. I have a set of worked over 243 heads from my 2002 Camaro thats torn into a million pieces at the moment but my Ranger is my main project. I did email you the pictures of the floor, sorry it took me so long
Great job so far! Look at the guys who fab up LS heads for the 300 six. No comparison to the stock 300 head.
You hit it right on the head about cost. Dollar to dollar a Big Block Chevy would make a lot more horsepower than a Cleveland, and a little more power than
385 series big block. But like he says, one engine doesn’t fit everyone’s goal. On the other hand a Cleveland with CHI heads will usually make fifty more horsepower than an equivalent Windsor, maybe more. So do what makes you happy.
It's all about making the most of what you have.
I've played with the Cleveland platform in the past. Made then run fairly well too. But when you get that engine running, I bet it would run rings around the iron 4V heads I ran. I also had a fairly stout 2V headed Cleveland too. I'm running a Windsor these days and enjoy it. It's basically a stock 1970 spec long block with a few bolt on's. Nice running street driver, not really fast but fun. Oh, I'm also working on a 428CJ 70 Cougar. I'm sure that one will be punishment for something I did when I was young.
Theres definitely potential here with them even if some don't see it
@@HotRodGuyGarage This is truly what Hot Roding is all about.
Did you try switching the manifold halves side to side? The offsets may lineup better.
Negligible difference
@@HotRodGuyGarage yes, I got to thinking later. You would need two right or left halves put together.
To improve the alignment on the bank to bank offset could you buy another cheap intake, cut it in half like the first and combine 2 lefts or 2 rights? I can't tell if that would change it from the video :)
I dont think it would change a whole lot but its possible
Im interested to see how your build goes . I seen this done before on youtube and it worked out well . The guy even added a turbo
It should be fun to see how it goes.
Are you thinking of the guy that did LS heads on a 351W?
Its been some time your most likely correct . I dont mean anything bad by my comment I love your vids
Personally I would use adapter spacers to adapt a clevland intake to the heads.
The problem I see with making the LT intake work would be fuel distribution using a carburetor with having those ports shifted like that 🤔
Definitely a spacer would be more ideal
Funny that GM had to move to a design more near ford of the past.
Definitely some similarities between most manufacturers
Hey man I would go the high ram route. There are videos of Lt heads going on a Windsor and they do a decent job of piecing it back together and shearer fab sells just the high ram mounting flange to weld on tops
The video is 351LT part 2. From GMTgearHDs. You might get some good ideas from that. Good luck. At least then you can put any high ram lid on there you want
Inthinl thats the route to go or just adapt a Cleveland tunnel ram to the lt heads
Its not different than using a Brodix or any aftermarket cylinder head, If it fits then awesome, drag racing of yesteryear was always trying different heads etc. in search of power, we ran AMC's with modded Chrysler heads. Awesome content..
Agreed
have you looked at the possibility of welding mating flanges onto a narrower boss 302 intake? when I made a valley plate for mine I tapped the 1/2-20 holes in the block to bolt it down. It looks like the holes were cast there for that purpose. what scares me is any change in the exhaust, I had to make custom parts for my clutch linkages and have no room in my 68 Mustang, port locations and the spark plugs look way different. maybe some 302 headers?
I believe the cleveland headers will work with a flange change
@@HotRodGuyGarage I don't think so, the tubes would have to move up considerably and to the rear, right into my equalizer bar and fork. I have a T-5 on a small block bellhousing. I would have to go hydraulic in a T-5 bell housing. the Lt heads also angle back like a Windsor. reflanging '69 351Windsor tubes may work.
Don't get me wrong I love this sort of thing, and I can't wait to see how this performs.
However having built a fair number of Clevelands the bottom end of these engines have major major problems that must be addressed. Sure these Clevelands can make a ton of power and can be spun up to 10k rpms with stock cast crank however extensive oil system modifications are required including running an external oil manifold to oil the mains. These blocks have to be sleeved and filled with cement. As much as I love the Clevelands I have to admit they need a ton of work to make them reliable, the only good thing about them was the heads, however the Cleveland heads required a fair bit of work on the exhaust side to get them to flow worth a damn. Back then we didn't have much in the way of aftermarket heads, these Cleveland heads could make great power and we spent the time and money to get the bottom end to survive.
The last one of these I built went into a cobra it was an absolute animal. No idea how much power it made but that car was absolutely scary, I'd estimate it made around 700 HP at 9500 rpm, it had no low end torque was like a 2 stroke dirt bike engine nothing till she hit 6,500 the it just ripped, obviously perfect for a lightweight car like a cobra with a manual transmission. You just kept the rpms up around 7000 at all times and drove it like a rental 🤣.
Absolutely true there, ford really had the potential to make it great and then just dropped the ball on the oiling system.
Ford bore spacing is close between Windsor, Cleveland and 4.9 inline.. I’ve heard of installing two Cleveland heads and Cleveland style pistons in a 4.9
Absolutely, may have to put a pair on the ol turbo 300 six
I was thinking this could work on a windsor block too until i realized the intake manifold on them is "wet" so a coolant flow solution would be necessary
It would be basically the same water mods as a clevor swap
What is the cost of the custom ground camshaft and the direct injection system needed for this conversion compared to the cost of aftermarket Ford heads?
No custom ground cam needed and the direct injection will be deleted
--i am tempted to build a 351/427 stroker around a set of LS7 heads and a super-victor
Sounds like a fun project.
Though I haven't experienced 1000 RWHP, I can't see that in a car that doesn't have all the bells and whistle traction control and such. On my 94 turbo Mustang cobra I run 9 lbs and 466 RWHP, and it's too easy to bust the 315's off and get sideways. So, I can understand where you are coming from, 500 seems reasonable for a really fun car. Solving the intake problem will be interesting, maybe getting some guidance from Daisy would be helpful...lol
I can tell you with utmost certainty that having 650 hp at the crank is uncontrollable, even with massive Michelin sport cup 2 tires, and all the computer controls imaginable, you cannot get nor keep traction to use more than say 4-500 hp. Sure if the car is set up specifically for drag racing with massive slick tires on a sticky prepped track and some type of adjustable suspension, then you’re golden. But anymore than say 500 is a waste on the street. But what do I know 🤷♂️
My dream car would be a Porsche GT3RS which is the N/A version of the GT2RS. Why, 🤷♂️ because I’d rather use 💯 or near all than only ever use 1/2 of the GT2RS forced air. But no way I’m spending $150-225k on a Volkswagen POS car 🤣
Those last three words describe it perfectly lol worked on many german cars
The intake wont be that bad i believe but we will have to see when i get to that point
You do know that LT head has the valves the opposite of the LS but as I recall the Cleveland has the same valve order ?
The LT and sbf/Cleveland share the same valve order
All the people that overreact to what you are doing really haven't had to do ANYTHING on a budget. I have made things work for more years than I care to admit. Your idea and the way you are going about it is the very roots of hot rodding. From Offenhauser to Duntove on up through Vic Edelbrock it was an idea to make things better for less money that made hot rodding. As for your intake issue, have you thought about building your own from tube and flat plate? I've made a few oddball exhaust headers and even an carb adapter or two just using basic tools and a die grinder. Might be interesting to see what you could come up with. Just something to think about.
Ive thought about just building one from flat steel and pipe and seeing how it works
As a Ford guy fuck it I’m really interested to see this work. I’d be interested in a comparison of the Edelbrock “3V” Cleveland heads to the LT’s. People getting butt hurt, this is just one of those “a couple guys having too many beers let’s see if something works” and the idea gets in your head and you’ve got to try it that’s what Hot Roding is all about, adaptation and modification. Without guys like this the flathead Ford never would’ve got to where it did and neither would our toys
Agreed, I try not to do any unreversible
@ I think it’s great you might’ve finally figured out how to fix a Chevy motor🤣🤣
Can tou hold a cleveland intake over those heads to see if adapters would work? Just thinking if i built the china wall up and had 90* adapters, i could bolt on a stock 4v intake/carb. Real sleeper then😂😂
It would have to be raised about 4" over the walls to align the ports
@ wow… no way to “hide” that with a stock intake and paint, huh?😂
Can’t wait until you fire it up, have a buddy with a couple of clevelands following you and i have a milling machine and lathe, so…😁
Thia is what hotroding is about
Thanks
Is there an advantage to using a Cleveland bottom end over anLS bottom end. I thought the LS bottom end was plenty strong. With the cross bolt Y block isn’t it better?
Absolutely no advantage in bottom end on a Cleveland. The ls/lt platforms are stronger
@ that’s what I was thinking. So I guess you are doing it just to show it can be done?
I am curious to see if the time and $$ spent will be more cost effective than it would have been to just buy a set of heads and be done with it already. But then if you did that, you wouldn’t have content to film. I have a 70 351 Cleveland 4bbl with stock heads. . Good enough for me.
So far ive got a couple hours of time and about 600 bucks into it
It looks like Speedmaster offers a downdraft individual throttle setup that fits LT engines, this could be close to a bolt on
That's the easy way!
I would build a sheet metal tunnel ram. I think you will have less time and less work in that in the long run. I think you’ll make good power with the combo
I think so too
At 6:40 mark, that Alabama tag with 42 for the starting numbers means Lawrence County, Alabama! (I'm from Caddo/Trinity area)
I noticed all the Tennessee tags and then saw the glorious 42 Bama tag!! ❤
(I'm in east Tennessee now)...
I was trying to place the accent (unsuccessfully mind) but may have a general regional area... 🤷♂️
(I'm a 400 Ford guy myself so I dig all this)
Awesome, SE TN here
@@HotRodGuyGarage Cool! I'm in Jonesborough, TN now - Hope to see your Frankenstein Ford 351 out on the streets sometime!
I have had both 1971 351C's 2v and 4v closed chamber motors. The 2v's way better on the street. Pulls way harder than 4v up to 4500rpm. Had same cams and carbs on both engines.
Absolutely true there!
Send it to me. I’ll tig weld some extra material in that area for nuthin’!
I may just have to take you up on that!
Isn't this the same conversion that GMTgearHDs did ?
He had dome some windsors, started on a Cleveland and dissappeared
Before you said it I was thinking of usng a 3D printer!
Would be cool to do one with a carbon filament, but above my computer skill level
Ok so let's see how it all looks from the bottom of the block. I'm not against any of your idea I'm just not convinced yet 😊. I'm gonna let a few other people in on your idea 💡😊
@@Anthony-nw5zv its in the first or second video
Hoping that the juice is worth the squeeze.
Ive not really got much time or money into it
@@HotRodGuyGarage It looks expensive and time consuming, but it will all be worth it when it is running. I am glad you are doing it and I am sure many are. I know I am learning a lot.
That LT port is better! No way is that 4V port better!
Its definitely got 50+ years of design improvements
I get it man but it’s damn hard not to buy Holly stuff because they’re own everything now it is unreal to see what is underneath the Holly hat
@@600wheel the ones Holley don’t own elderbrock does. 😂
Agreed
@@frizzellracing everything bolted to the Block in my Mustang is Edelbrock lol
@ mine is either elderbrock or trick flow.
@@frizzellracing I added the Paxton Novi 2000 “cold air intake” to help things really breath. I definitely recommend it. I bolted that motor shut 15 years and 40k ago and it hasn’t skipped a single beat but it has a tendency to eat tires
Time to build a custom intake and not use that one you cut up. Just make sure you get some nice thick flanges so it doesn't leak.
Be the easiest route I believe
It would be kind of cool to grind off the Chevy Identifying marks on the heads to keep people guessing when you get it out to the shows. 😂
Its gonna be a confusing thing for cruise ins
I'm 65 and have never seen a set of Cleveland head. Only Windsor.
That's one thing that has bothered me about Ford; especially the 1975-78 era, why there was even a 'need' for any species of 335 series V8 since the 351W covered the 351M and the 429-2V would've done the same for the 400C.
Agreed there they could had had a gem with the tall decks , the early 400c was a decent runner in stock form
Any one that knows Cleveland racing history knows that they had massive ports, with terrible port placement. They could not use the port volume due to that problem. They would flow better when the bottoms of the ports were filled in on both intake and exhaust.
Absolutely, thats why these are appealing
That’s not a 351 Cleveland motor it’s a 351 F motor for Frankenstein.
Chevy ford cleveland SS Cobra jet lol
Are you going to put it in the mustang?
It will make it way in there im sure
14:12 Whigged out?Hardly, I'm a Know Nothing Chitt Carrying Party Member!
😆 thanks dean
LS7 rockers are 1.8 ratio fyi
Correct
Cheaper in the long run just buy TFS 351 heads. 🤔
Highly doubtful ive got less then 600 bucks in this so far
I built a 351c 4v for a 66 mustang it cost me a fortune and in the end I still only have about 400hp not very impressed
Thats what Ive seen over and over thats why I decided to go this way to see if we can't find a budget way to go
I love the 351C, but it's not a budget platform. Too many Windsor blocks and aftermarket parts on the market to build a Cleveland based anything these days.
You could probably sell your incomplete Cleveland for more than enough to build a complete 302-357 stroker that would produce the low speed torque you're looking for.
That said, if I had the parts and your ability, I'd probably build something foolish/ experimental like a Clevor 302 to turbocharge.
They have potential, they just dont have enough cubes for the 4v heads. I tried to sell this one (give it away) for over 10 years before I even touched it. I decided to just go this route to see what happens with it
@@HotRodGuyGarage I'm shocked it wouldn't sell, but I wouldn't want to pay to have it shipped to Bama, so there's that.
The Cleveland canted valve was borrowed from Chevy ,,,,,you can’t compare 1960 technologies to 2000 technologies
Dont forget the LT head requires less ign timing for max power.... if you time it like a cleveland you will probably run into detonation
Absolutely more effeciant chambers burn faster and require less ignition lead
Uhm, Okay. Why ? I remember the 60s/70s. When "back yard" engineering was the foundation of improvements. But today ? Other than a dare or just to do it ? Are you saying ford heads suck ?
Just doing budget stuff with what ive got
I'm finding Chinese products have much more quality than us made products and usually $1,000 cheaper
Your correct in most cases
Give it up guy, no matter what you do to a pos ford you will not make a difference a pos ford will always be a pos ford stop waisting your time life's too short 😂
It'll only be good till the Cleveland breaks