I did this modernist worship for almost 15 years. Bottom line: it’s emotional manipulation, and it works by theologically tricking people into the unscriptual idea that the Holy Spirit is to be equated with feelings (which btw is not unlike Mormonism’s “burning in the bosom.”)
Any kind of song is emotional maltipal including hymns, the arguments against hillsong were once used by the church to discouagre hymns in favour of latin mass
And people who try to equate Christians who use questionable worship songs with Mormons are not un like the Pharisees, you know the judgemental ones in the Bible..... Lol. See what I did there?
so YOU are not attempting to use YOUR emotional manipulation..... by YOUR theologically trickery..... to talk people into YOUR unscriptual idea's.... that the Holy Spirit is to be equated to..... what YOUR feelings say we should feel?????
50 years drumming experience all genres, sessions, teaching etc, etc. I will never play drums in a church again. The whole worship band thing has become a cult all it's own with in churches. It's a monumental waste of financial resources that need to be used to feed people. I am in total bliss and peace in a little church with just a piano. Music is once again in it's proper place far in the distance hardly there as a thin layer upholding the most important thing... The message of the hymns.
There are videos here on UA-cam where churches boast of the thousands of dollars on soundboards, lights, and amplifiers to "capture the moment". Give me true worship and a cappella anytime. The performance mimics the secular every time. Bring back the hymnals. Many wrote the hymns with deep thought and had everyone able to sing it. Today's music is terrible. All it does is raise the adrenaline and it wears off by the time the sermon starts. Just sets the mood but not the passion.
@@rhondae8222 My wife wanted to visit an old church with a new pastor. He compared his rebirth to a "putting the misery out of an injured deer". So many modern pastors want to relate to the congregation instead of being anointed and preach a solid sermon. I spend more time listening to Leonard Ravenhill and A. W. Tozer, then read from the olden preachers. Rather be challenged than feeling good.
@@catpocalypsenow8090 Was Satan the head musician? This cannot be answered definitively. Scripture does not say enough about what his duties were in heaven. Considering the fact that the angels constantly worship God (Isaiah 6:3; Revelation 4:8), it is possible that Satan led that worship. One thing is sure: for Satan to rebel despite having such an exalted position and close relationship with God, the devil is surely due his eternal destiny (Revelation 20:10).
They say Catholics do "vain repititions" praying the Rosary, then perform a 30 minute song where they sing "he is worthy, he is high and lifted up" approximately 70000 times.
ay and night they never stop saying: “‘Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,’[a] who was, and is, and is to come.” ve thanks to the LORD, for he is good. His love endures forever. 2 Give thanks to the God of gods. His love endures forever. 3 Give thanks to the Lord of lords: His love endures forever. 4 to him who alone does great wonders, His love endures forever. 5 who by his understanding made the heavens, His love endures forever. 6 who spread out the earth upon the waters, His love endures forever. 7 who made the great lights-- His love endures forever. 8 the sun to govern the day, His love endures forever. 9 the moon and stars to govern the night; His love endures forever. 10 to him who struck down the firstborn of Egypt His love endures forever. 11 and brought Israel out from among them His love endures forever. 12 with a mighty hand and outstretched arm; His love endures forever. 13 to him who divided the Red Sea [1] asunder His love endures forever. 14 and brought Israel through the midst of it, His love endures forever. 15 but swept Pharaoh and his army into the Red Sea; His love endures forever. 16 to him who led his people through the desert, His love endures forever. 17 who struck down great kings, His love endures forever. 18 and killed mighty kings-- His love endures forever. 19 Sihon king of the Amorites His love endures forever. 20 and Og king of Bashan-- His love endures forever. 21 and gave their land as an inheritance, His love endures forever. 22 an inheritance to his servant Israel; His love endures forever. 23 to the One who remembered us in our low estate His love endures forever. 24 and freed us from our enemies, His love endures forever. 25 and who gives food to every creature. His love endures forever. 26 Give thanks to the God of heaven. His love endures forever. [13] Hebrew Yam Suph; that is, Sea of Reeds; also in verse 15
Whilst I agree with some of the points made and would never personally go to one of these churches because of their theology and leadership; I found this a massive generalisation and a poor way to argue some theological differences. There are problems on all ‘sides’. We need to remember whose church this is. There are genuine saints in all ‘expressions’ of the church on earth. Whilst a warning to stay biblical and theologically sound is good for all l, we should always be striving for unity - whatever our earthly understanding of some of these things are. None of us are perfect or have it 100% right. Worship is perhaps more than anything a heart issue. What’s the motive for your worship? Sung worship is only a part of worship of God. You could be singing the most theologically correct song, but if you’re singing it just because it’s what’s done or you’re just going through the motions. God looks at the heart, the outside might appear clean and to be doing it ‘right’ but if the heart isn’t right - He’ll know. We worship Him, regardless of how we feel because He is worthy of it, all the time. Of course the challenge is for us to so be submitted to Him as Lord that His spirit changes us and we worship Him in spirit and in truth. Denying ourselves and pressing through the distractions of the world to focus on Him. To do that honestly 100% of the time is a challenge we face daily. Personally I also find it odd that emotions are attacked here. We should not be led by them and must pray the fruits of the spirit outwork more and more. However, again personally I think if we do not have an emotional response for what God has done for us - the response of his spirit in us and the revelation it brings - are we really Christians? Gods work for us and in us demands a response from all we are, for He made us to Glorify Him. To praise, to sing, to be still on our knees and everything in between. David dances in a loin cloth before the people and his God. Gods Word is full of different expressions of worship and praise in response to the revelation of God. Lastly, even if these song writers and leaders mean these songs for gain, God can and does still use them for His good and His Glory. I don’t believe ‘painting them all or us all with the same brush’ is helpful. We should all be watchful and aware.
yup... apparently Amazing Grace was written by a "wretch". Listen, Moses leads the people through the Red Sea. In response to God's work Miriam grabs a tambourine and leads an outburst of spontaneous praise. God manifests his presence with a miracle -> emotional worship Solomon spends days obediently dedicating the temple of God in elaborate acts of worship -> God manifests his presence. God's like: I'll come down either way if any of you will worship me.
Could not agree more. Worship is a heart issue. And because it is, it also involves our emotions. The woman who broke her alabaster jar "cried", her tears fell on Jesus's feet. She was filled with emotions for the Lord and the Lord commended her. Each song should be evaluated for its theological as well as musical merits and not dismiss it for simply what church it comes from.
@@atyt11christ is not our equal. It’s blasphemous to sing songs that romanticize “christians” relationship with the Lord. When John met the Lord face to face he fell to the floor as a dead man because of fear and reverence
@@andriesbritz6061 Jesus is the Lord God. Have you ever taken a moment to think where some people are in their walk? Where you are and where you have been? We meet the Lord at different points in our lives. Maybe a broken home, fatherless, abused family situation needs Jesus in a way that relates only to them and NOT to you. You are to do you, fall on your face, do as God calls you. and.... I promise, Your need to judge and call out eye specks is not helping. Jesus said the first would be last and He served more undeserving people than you and I will in our full lifetimes. Again, Jesus is the Lord God, but he chose to be the servent. He is all these things below and much more......... Alpha and Omega · Immanuel · King of Kings · Light of the World · Morning Star · Prince of Peace · Wonderful Counselor · Lamb of God · Saviour of the World · The Good Shepherd · The Way · Lord of Lords · Anointed One · Bread of Life · Chief Cornerstone · Great High Priest · Holy and Righteous One
@@kevinhutchins4222 I know, right? As if God made us anti-emotion robots. And...God must not have an emotions at all....🤔🙄except He seems to in the Bible
or you could go to the church that you choose to worship in and let others do the same without telling them you think you know best how to praise the Lord.
Stumbled on this video, having only a vague knowledge of the "stop listening to Hillsong" blogs, etc. If a born-again believer is singing/worshipping and praising the Lord with their church, and with lyrics that align with scripture....I simply don't see the issue here. Too many comments on denomination, doctrine, etc. CHRIST is the center, period. Listen to the Holy Spirit, stay in the word and pray! One of my favorite Hillsong pieces is King of Kings, and I've yet to find anything that doesn't align with scripture.
I don't often comment, and I haven't followed the video to the end, but from personal experience the problem with the use of Hillsong and Bethel is not that every song has bad lyrics. It is simply not true. The problem is what songs they don't sing and why. They want songs that generate or promote certain emotions and exclude those that are what they see as "dampeners". My wife and I had a "fight" on exactly this issue with a church, before even Bethel and Hillsong existed. It is the desire to focus on "positive" emotions such as praise to the exclusion of more difficult issues like suffering. The Psalms contain both. We challenged our church that they, with their songs, were creating a very difficult emotional environment for people who were going through hard times. It is not that we should get rid of the songs of praise and jubulation, but that we must be also prepared to sing songs that deal with other aspects of the faith and of life as Christians. I live in Germany so that I have the privilege of getting to know the hymns of Paul Gerhardt. One of his most famous hymns is "Befiehl du deine Wege" which you will find in Bach's Matthew Passion and a translation of the first verse is: Commit whatever grieves you At heart, and all thy ways, To Him who never leaves thee, On whom creation stays. Who freest courses maketh For clouds, and air, and wind, And care who ever taketh A path for thee to find. Now I don't expect Bethel and Hillsong to match that hymn. Probably nobody ever has, but as a message in difficult times to commit our ways to God, to trust in Him who never leaves us, it is probably unmatched. It would be inappropriate to call that praise and it is not an expression of jubilation, but it is a message that can uplift us in difficult times.
"There was another in the fire Standing next to me There was another in the waters Holding back the seas And should I ever need reminding Of how I've been set free There is a cross that bears the burden Where another died for me"
We are not Shadrack , Meshack and Abednego , we are also not Israelites walking through the parted waters. This Elevation song is a skew form of worship. We need to turn from the worship of me and I and worship the true Creator of heaven and earth with thankful hearts of the future assured from the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.
I am attracted to the words, This song says that I was never alone in all That I went through, I'm forever grateful to Jesus my Creator for being there with me, Blessings always ❤️
Me, me, me. Most of these seemingly powerful and deep worship songs just make it all about "me". Compare this to just a classic old hymn and see the difference on where the worship is truly directed
There's "another in the fire" because the Holy spirit dwells in us believers. Are we in the fire then God will be there too. This song text is about God and is about me because I am a benefactor. I think this song expresses strong gratitude.
I went to an Assemblies of God college in the 90s. I walked away when they started teaching us how to manipulate people with song placement and other things discussed here. If we have to do songs in a certain way, and using certain songs, it’s emotional and not a real move of God.
I'm 10 minutes in... I'm sorry was this supposed to reveal a "huge" problem with HillSong and Bethel music? Because I must have missed it. Please just lay out your accusations. It should be easy: 'Every fact' (accusation) must be confirmed by two or three witnesses. So lay out your charge based on scripture in context, and the other scriptures which CLEARLY corroborate the charge. Without that, what you have is opinion or (worse) slander. Judging others on how they worship the true God doesn't end well. Have you forgotten the woman who ministered to the feet of Jesus with only sobs and tears? (Would the theological content of her sobbing meet your religious requirements?) Jesus directly confronted the critics who attacked her, to defend and commend her. I will continue to worship Jesus with whatever song honours Him for who He is, in truth (many, many HillSong/Bethel songs qualify), that moves me physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually (as music was His idea and He made us to respond to it). And I hope to be even more undignified than this. I will sing in the spirit, and I will sing with my understanding also, following Paul's example. I hope this continues to cause me to more and more weep at Jesus' feet. Please, feel free to criticise or judge me for this, as His defence and commendation would be more than I could hope for.
With that voice he should make it a bit shorter😂 can’t even pass 7 minutes mark. Long as they can make people meditate on God, turning thoughts toward God, I’d say they’re doing their job. I’m all for doctrine, but if one listen to their song for Bible study, there’s deeper problem than that.
Wow the disgusting foolishness in these statements and the foolish man who just wrote an article trying to sound wise but has as much wisdom as a swine wearing pearls is disgusting. Yes disgusting! The audacity to dishonor the Lord with this foolish statement is sad. I will pray for you, but be careful foolish man, you allowed yourself to be deceived. You rely on your self satisfaction, rather than God's word. You have no scripture knowledge, and lack true wisdom. Repent! If not, then real what you sow from your dead tree
There are songs like, "The Goodness of God," by Hillsong that are not theologically compromising. I think the one main reason we should not engage with any of the music put out by these groups or those like them and those associated with them is that it opens the door for an individual to look further. And if you are not a mature Christian you could easily be taken captive by their false teachings. We know some hymns have inaccurate theological teachings but we are not banning hymns. For the mature in Christ, you must exercise discernment especially when dealing with music. For the immature and young, seek the counsel of your elders and those God has placed in your life to care for you.
@@JungleJimmy-je1fv If you were to dig deep and do research about some of their questionable practices you might change your mind. Plus their "Jesus" is another Jesus.
I'm a Christian a musician, and from a Pentecostal background. I couldn't agree more. There are so many believers who are on shaky ground because their roots are so shallow theologically. And a large part of it is that they live on a "junk food" diet of emotional experiences but don't "study to show themselves approved of God". Know in whom, what and why you believe, rooted in the Word of God so that you will "not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is.
Greetings from Westwood Baptist Church in Nashville, Tennessee! 9:14 "This theology of worship is a distinct break from the theology and expectation of Reformed Christians in the wake of the Reformation until the rise of American revivalism in the nineteenth century and Pentecostalism in the twentieth century. Worship theology that was reformed according to Scripture taught that emotion and singing come as a result of the work of the Holy Spirit in a believer’s life, not as a cause of the Holy Spirit’s work." 10:44 "The Holy Spirit works in a believer’s heart through the sufficient Word that he inspired and the ordinary means of grace he prescribed therein." Yes! Thank you for this excellent article/video.
This happens on the Fundamentalist side with the expectation that traveling evangelists are supposed to musically entertaining. Evangelists who just preach rarely get invited to churches to preach, but a guy who sings and the wife sings and plays piano, the kids sing well now you have a winner. They have pastors who sing and play instruments like the piano who are just as emotional as the Pentecostal folks without the dancing and speaking in tongues. While they sing more classical music there’s still an elements of emotionalism and a push to have people come forth to the altar as a sign that the Holy Spirit is working on the hearts of those in attendance.
My friend, A professor of composition at a Bible college in my town told me that he and his peers in music instruction agree that todays "Worship offerings" are far from music at all... Just fluffy mantras... Empty, meaningless, pointless.
"Mantras" is a very interesting amd accurate word to use. As our friend here said, it is a style more aligned with pagan worship, and mantras are an essential part of many pagan religions.
I wonder why he and his friends and those of his like are not writing some songs that we can then sing in churches rather than having to sing the old hymns? I have no problem with replacing a bad preacher with a better one or a shallow song with a better song but if there's no better alternatives then the critics need to put up or......
@@michaelnewzealand1888The "old songs "are beautiful,We are so much like the pagans..."New and Improved, " That seems to be what many churches are trying to give to their attendees, Read Romans chapter ONE,Verse Eighteen and following
I frequently lead worship at our church. I have come out of many years in the charismatic movement. So I have ceased using Hillsong music, etc. But I have enjoyed the music of Sovereign Grace and other more theologically sound songs.
@markrogers7546 I love Sovereign Grace that's about all I listen to these days. If you like piano look up Greg Howlett. He does his own arrangements and is very gifted...
Norton Hall Band does modern renditions of older hymns. Also, a small movement has begun to put Psalms to modern music. ua-cam.com/video/ZUFgOVsYtc4/v-deo.htmlsi=KjjBsFfq8MKWjWw3
Ok- so we all stop singing “Goodness of God” because it’s a Bethel song? There’s a lot of time and energy being spent by online Christian creators in pulling other believers down and criticizing how they worship. I find it hard to see how this honours God or truly benefits anyone. A house divided against itself cannot stand.
They are not Christian’s , they are false believers ! Teaching a false gospel so there is no devision !!!! Ephesians 5:11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness , but instead expose them !
:I'm afraid his presentation will be opaque to a large number of today's Christians. The entire first half is a sequence of quotes from misguided folk, but without explanation as to why they are misguided. He expects the errors in the quotes stand out to his listeners - but they won't. Hillsong / Bethel Redding / IHOP theology is by now ubiquitous across American churches. He needs to make the two theologies distinct right from the outset - instead of waiting until 9:14.
1. Modern worship music is based on secular methods to sell and use adrenaline to make us feel good. 2. Much of these songs are repetitious and superficial. 3. How did worship music become a million dollar business? 4. Worship service is based on performance than worship itself. I can't go to church today. Playing choruses and verses over and over to "make a point" turns it off for me. People just watch the performance. If you need a "worship leader" to instigate worship, there is a huge problem. It's because God isn't among us. If we did, we wouldn't need a worship band or music to give Him His worth in praise. If only we knew Him as we should, worship would come routinely. Maybe we need to examine our hearts as Paul told the church in Corinth (2 Cor. 13:5). Sadly, we have used superficial worship music for our theology and relationship with God instead of knowing Him truthfully.
Or you could find a church that doesn’t do this? I go to a reformed church and we go through lots of scripture and only use the psalter for our music. The church my son attends uses hymns. There is no emotional manipulation .
Are our worship songs meant to be totally devoid of emotion? Whilst I don't agree with using the songs of Hillsong, Bethel, etc, many of the psalms, the songs of the Wesleys, and other faithful writers are very emotional. "And Can it Be", "When I Survey the Wondrous Cross", and other traditional hymns are very emotional and yet theologically sound.
@@carolyndavis6657 Here's the scoop. I hold neither Calvinist or Arminian view completely. I do believe in the gifts, including tongues, but not in the Pentecostal doctrine. The sad part is you get three types of churches: Those who are too hyper in the gifts. Those who say they believe in the gifts but don't live accordingly. Those who don't accept them at all. They ceased. In my area, about 2/3rds have been modernized with "worship rock." Fancy light, loud music, performance driven. Others still have the mix, of sorts, but their theology has changed. Also, I am KJV. I cannot handle the modern translations and it's watered down wording. I could get more into it but I do not have the time and space to explain myself. I see so many churches compromised where I live. Some have become apostate, accepting abominations into the congregation and leadership. Prayer services are no longer Spirit-led. Just an enhanced Sunday service with selected ministries to "pray about". Just go through the motions services every week. And the demand for more money to pay off debt the leaders incurred, no thanks. People leave the same way they came in. No fear of God. I can't sense His presence in ANY church within 50 miles. Frustrating.
@@markrogers7546 Never mentioned emotions, I said songs are written to make us feel good about our worship. It's directed more to us than Him. Lots of catchy biblical phrases today as well. Not saying there hasn't been some good worship songs in the last thirty years. Much is built on selling and style, not on focusing on God's attributes, character and wondrous works. They are more redirected toward our feelings than knowing Him. Worship and His glory drove the Jews to the knees and prostrated them to the ground. Now we stand and enjoy what the band is doing for us.
..... And once again a Reformist displays arrogance and a 'holier than thou' dismissal of brothers and sisters who have been bought with a very precious price by the One who loves mercy.
I align with Reformed Theology and I too believe there are a lot of those who align with it that are extremely smug and arrogant. It’s pretty pervasive in the denomination in my experience unfortunately. It’s nice to see someone else validate that and help me realize that it wasn’t just me that sees this arrogance. Hopefully there’s a turn around.
@@FinestCrimsonI’m reformedish and I’d say my NonDenom Church is definitely a bit more “reformed” than most…but as far as our expressions of worship, they are varied and sometimes feel more Protestant, BUT (like our last worship night) can feel really pentecostal! 😄
Wow. I’m sorry so many have had legitimately negative experiences… but I’m also sad to see that there’s no open dialogue, just charismatic character assassination. Lots of genuine believers whose Pentecostal perspective is based on scripture… even if you think we’re wrong, most of us are your brothers.
It actually is…as I’ve studied the Bible more and more I’ve come to understand that it is ABSOLUTELY necessary to express Boisterous and ENTHUSIASTIC (even, undignified PRAISE) to our King of Kings and Lord of Lords JESUS!
My eyes have been opened to the sensual experience seeking church that I've been so used to all my life. I'm praying for courage to leave my charismatic emotion driven church but I keep getting told with a very smug look that non-charismatic churches are not 'Spirit filled' and that I'm making a mistake and to 'expect opposition' if I leave.
Jesus warned us that if we follow Him we Will face opposition and persecution,Do the Right thing and leave the consequences to Him, Blessings always ❤️
I’m cool with “flow.” But I’m more interested in thematic and theological flow and smooth transitions. For me, this is about preparing hearts for the sermon, not trying to summon a spiritual experience.
This is what I understood: Because the age of the apostle is over, there are no more spiritual gifts and because this worship expects the Holy Spirit to move, this worship is misleading. And to justify this eradication of the spiritual gifts, extreme examples are used or personal sin is pointed too. Now whatever style we prefer or argue, to believe that the spiritual gifts are no more, is a post biblical teaching and the one who argues this has actually left sola scriptura. And the book of Psalm for example acknowledges that we are beings with emotions, in verses like 42:11; 23:3; 62:5-6; 34:18 or 103:1 the soul and our emotions are addressed. So what is so wrong about feeling the love deep within you. So to be clear, a warning against abuse, especially manipulation or prosperity gospel is called for and good. To throw all ‘new’ worship under the bus, because one holds a post biblical teaching about the gifts of the spirit is just that: POST BIBLICAL!
Hillsong, Bethel, and Elevation are false churches with false teaching. The Bible in no uncertain terms tells us to have NOTHING to do with false teachers. That includes their ministries, and their musics are a part of their ministries. Be discerning, and do not fall into pragmatism that leads to harmful application that causes others to sin. Do not sing Bethel, Elevation, or Hillsong music.
@@kelliestewart1832 I don't think that is right to me it is wrong and it's really that simple. Imagine if you got saved in a church like Hillsong and somebody called you a heretic because you went to their church. You would probably have to say you are it's really that simple....., but I wouldn't say so
Far too critical and over zealous in your critique. What do you do with this- “Praise the Lord! Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty heavens! Praise him for his mighty deeds; praise him according to his excellent greatness! Praise him with trumpet sound; praise him with lute and harp! Praise him with tambourine and dance; praise him with strings and pipe! Praise him with sounding cymbals; praise him with loud clashing cymbals!”
Because he wants churches to stop playing these songs. If he just condemns them, then those on the edges will not listen as they'll think that he's being too critical. Highlighting issues without going too far will allow more leadership teams to listen to the points raised.
Notice the picture of Brooke ligertwood on this vid. Her songs and collabs are pretty much straight from scripture and theologically solid. Ps she left Hillsong a few years ago.
Absolutely correct what a beautiful name it is and king of kings are filled with good Theology and wonderful verses about the king of kings our lord Jesus Christ.
@@michaelnewzealand1888 Agreed. Two exact songs that I've been listening to recently, and could not find anything seriously wrong with them. Quite the contrary, I found the to be a blessing to me. Also Hosanna. And I'm a Reformed Baptist. To me it's like that old hymn It is Well With my Soul, whose author ended up a heretic. But no one avoids singing it. But I do recognize this is a delicate topic...
That may be the case for the most part. I admit, I never listened to either Hillsong or Bethel music, primarily because of being warned about them. But then I heard these few Hillsong songs we listed here (I might add also Cornerstone - which is almost verbatim that old My Hope Is Built on Nothing Less hymn, but with added refrain and put to modern music), and I found nothing really objectionable theologically in them. So there's that. And I'm sure there are more such songs. But isn't music meant to evoke emotions? And if biblically sound lyrics are combined with beautiful music (modern or otherwise), what could possibly be wrong with that? Does God expect us to stoically sing sound theology with minimal emotion (and God forbid raise your hands - which I personally don't, but don't object others doing so)? Or does God want us to involve our whole being in worship - both intellectual, and emotional aspects. I know, it's a fine balance, and there are always people in the church who are carried away by emotions no matter which song we sing.
@@AMightyFortress sometimes it seems to be marketed that way. That's true. That's often not the wish of the singer-songwriters. I've long judged songs on their content. Is a theology correct? Is the music pleasing and fitting to the lyric? Is it singable by the average congregation? That's enough for me. If I can answer yes. Certainly there are better songwriters than others. Churches like Bethel, Hillsong and many others have fostered environments where singer-songwriters can grow and Thrive. They're a gift to the church. I'd like to know what the original poster thinks about collaborations. For example, if Chris Tomlin and Jenni Johnson collaborate on a song, what do we do with it? EG. Holy forever
I think he misunderstands something of worship in charismatic congregations. I do not believe that singing is the act that awakens worship in me. I often sing as an act of faith regardless how I am feeling at the time. I choose worship by faith. In those times, unfailingly this choice to worship in the determination of continued faith in God through all circumstances draws out in me the joy of God and His presence. There I find myself in the assembly of believers choosing likewise to praise and worship whatever their circumstances. I neither wait until I feel like it nor engage until I feel it. Neither can the music wait for us to get there. It is inherently a vehicle to convey right theology and an ecstatic experience. It plays, and we enter in. Furthermore, if music has no emotional draw, it is simply not music. Sorry that I don't put a lot of stock into funeral marches. I'm not dead yet. Pretty obvious this guy's problem is with continuationism.
Simple. Because with your money they can do almost anything as little gods. These clowns are not looking for some imaginary Heavens, their best life is now! And The Bible is just a means to get what they want NOW.
No he didn't, someone put up a video and took it out of context. I don't particularly like Steven Furtick but to make that claim about him just to make him look bad because you don't agree with some of his Theology and don't agree with his church style or music is lying. Maybe unintentionally.
@@michaelnewzealand1888 Yes he most certainly did. Furtick stated verbatim "I am God Almighty"! He came out later to say that's not what he meant. But he did say it, so please do your homework.
Their music is great. What are you talking about? It's Christ exalting. Trinitarian. It reaches the heart. It's influenced generations. It brings us closer to God; the Love of him and the fear of him.
I don't think you really can't look at the Bible and come up with a certain style or approach to musical worship and say "this is what we should all do, all of the time." Especially in a New Testament context, there is very little said about musical worship. Yet I don't think that's a mistake on God's part (obviously), but rather intentional. I think God appreciates the vast number of approaches and expressions of worship that we humans can offer. There is room for many styles of worship in the churches of Jesus, and criticizing style in my opinion is just stirring up needless disunity in the church.
Excellent explanation of the problems with this music. I was part of the “hypercharismatic” movement for 14 years, and music is a HUGE part of nearly every event. It is meant to draw people in, create an emotional response, and often creates an almost hypnotic state. Bill Johnson (Bethel) has said that people will respond to things in music that they wouldn’t consider through teaching. There is a big emphasis in this movement on feelings and experiences, and checking your mind at the door. Sounds like our present day culture, doesn’t it? The theology of much of it is problematic, the music itself is problematic, and when listeners and churches use the music they are financially supporting what these churches/organizations do and teach. With Bethel at least, what they do and teach is even worse than what they sing.
1 Cor. 2:11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Sad to see ministries calling out other believers like this. Just because something makes you uncomfortable doesn’t make it wrong. People are different and express their worship in different ways. Like this scripture above indicates, you don’t know what someone’s thoughts are, so you shouldn’t judge that. Especially when someone is acknowledging Jesus as Lord. You are making the gospel to complicated! Many of these groups produce 100% biblically accurate songs. This is a bad trend and look for your ministry, G3.
@@atyt11 there is so much ignorance in that statement all I have time for is to call it out and doubke down on a "Holy Spirit" that doesn't act like the one in scripture is an obvious tell. You need to listen before you speak and learn to weigh a matter.
@@justinhadley2583 I love when people make absurd comments..."Pentecostal worship directly mirrors eastern mysticism" then clutch their pearls when called out on it. If you don't like snarky rebuttals then.....You need to listen before you speak and learn to weigh a matter. Wait.... have I not heard that somewhere before?🤔🤔
There's a HUGE Problem with nitpicking theology which overlooks the sovereignty of God, which overlooks how God can use even human beings with character flaws, which does not acknowledge the powerful moving of the Holy Spirit in so many situations.
What a beautiful name it is is a great song. I don't think saying that Jesus has a beautiful name, a wonderful name, a powerful name, is very vague or theologically incorrect somehow.
@@rhondajamison1747 if it is romanticizing worship and very shallow then that is a concern, for sure, but I don't think it's the case in this particular song and in all cases to broad brush every Hillsong song is wrong. And something to consider also is that a shallow Christian song is way way better than a very demonic heavy metal song. So we should be careful in our criticisms. Some of the old hymns are great but some of them like a lot of biblical reference some of them are theologically incorrect and some of them may be quite shallow too. Some churches do have fairly shallow Theology others have fairly judgmental Theology where they sit in judgment of others without looking at themselves. In my opinion it would be more useful to have a video that just talks about good attributes of a worship song instead of broad brushing a whole group of people. Another thing about modern Christian songs is that they're normally written by young people who buy virtue of their youth are quite immature. However the mature Christians don't seem to be writing any songs so.....
@@michaelnewzealand1888In the last days they won't endure sound doctrine,But have itching ears Seeking people that will tell them what they want to hear❤
And I thought these songs were just cheesy, sentimental, chiche-ridden sludge. Bring on those classic hymns written by folks who wanted to glorify His Name, not the top spot on the CCM charts!
And speaking of CCM, we have the overlap of Sunday worship and Friday night concerts by guys like Phil Wickham. Wickham writes songs that many song leaders use on Sunday morning, but Wickham is doing some of those same songs in a Friday or Saturday night concert in which he's prancing around the stage like a cross between Mick Jagger and David Lee Roth. (Not to mention that Wickham collabs with guys like Brandon Lake and Brian Johnson of Bethel.) The whole industry is a mess.
It’s funny, in the 90’s, Christians were complaining there shouldn’t just be Christian’s bands, but the Church should be the main influence when it comes to Christian music. Now that’s the case, people want more Christian bands again. The problem I have with these types of videos is that there’s so many bad things going on, if the worst is that the Church is preaching Jesus for selfish gain, well as Paul said in Philippians 1:15-18 …”But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.” Sure let’s tell Christian’s to stop worshipping Jesus to a particular style of music, that’s definitely going to help their faith 🤦♂️ Who’s to say what these song writers hearts are, perhaps they had good intentions, it’s not like they’re behaving like king David, sleeping around and covering it up with murder. Ironically God forgave David because of his heart. So the behaviour might look questionable, but God looks at the heart. There’s only one “accuser of the brethren” and I don’t want to align myself with him, so why are Christian’s quick to do so?
As kindly as I can say this. After watching this video, it kind of sounds like you don’t agree with the way David worshipped 2 Samuel 6, the way Mary worshipped John 12, and what Jesus told us is the greatest commandment in Matthew 22. I’ve spent my whole life in charismatic church environments and I lead worship haha Your issues with bethel and hillsong may be valid, I’ve never attended those churches so I can’t speak authoritatively to what takes place there regularly. However, almost every worship leader I’ve interacted with(from super reformed, to super pentecostal) place the emphasis of corporate worship on being biblical, genuine, and Christ-centered. With everything taking place in our world right now we should focus on being unified under Jesus, rather than vilifying those in different church expressions.
"Experience proves that next to the Word of God only music deserves to be extolled as the mistress and governess of the feelings of the human heart." - Martin Luther
What do people think of Emmaus walks? People seem to go on these walks to obtain/feel these same experiences. People keep trying to get me to go but I do t think searching out feelings/experiences, often in groups where there is pressure, to be biblical. Thanks all.
I came to the Lord through receiving and listening a song by Hillsong United. I testify that I supernaturally received the Holy Spirit right there, I prayed the prayer less than 2 months later and became a disciple of my Lord Jesus Christ. I believe God would and could have used any other way to bring me to Him but He used that song because He knew me. I agree especially on bethel there is questionable wording and theology and everyone MUST check everything they hear against the Bible, always. But just as much as you are calling out the wording of some of the songs, the scandals (totally valid points btw) and the praise culture especially in the charismatic movement, in my opinion you also need to work on UNITING christians among denominational differences and worship styles instead of emphasizing what is diving us in between different denominations and call litereally everything a false teaching without a solid theological base. Laying out a ton of fancy and complex sounding terminology alone does not make a solid Bible-based case, rather sounds like slandering a certain style of worship specially “preferred” in pentecostal churches. And yes, I am a worship leader and we do create a flow of worship you described and have an emphasis on praise but it is for one reason only to (surprise:) praise our one and only God. We are created to worship Him only, let people worship the Lord and have the Holy Spirit convict people about what to correct and go through their (and their leaders) sanctification process. Respectfully. God bless you dear brother in Christ!
“Then David danced before the Lord with all his might; and David was wearing a linen ephod. So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the Lord with shouting and with the sound of the trumpet. Now as the ark of the Lord came into the City of David, Michal, Saul’s daughter, looked through a window and saw King David leaping and whirling before the Lord; and she despised him in her heart. So they brought the ark of the Lord, and set it in its place in the midst of the tabernacle that David had erected for it. Then David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the Lord. And when David had finished offering burnt offerings and peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the Lord of hosts. Then he distributed among all the people, among the whole multitude of Israel, both the women and the men, to everyone a loaf of bread, a piece of meat, and a cake of raisins. So all the people departed, everyone to his house.” “Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, “How glorious was the king of Israel today, uncovering himself today in the eyes of the maids of his servants, as one of the base fellows shamelessly uncovers himself!” So David said to Michal, “It was before the Lord, who chose me instead of your father and all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the Lord, over Israel. Therefore I will play music before the Lord. And I will be even more undignified than this, and will be humble in my own sight. But as for the maidservants of whom you have spoken, by them I will be held in honor.”” II Samuel 6:14-22 NKJV
Recently I came across 2 Samuel 6 when David “danced before the lord with all his might”…his wife “saw him leaping and dancing before the Lord”. They brought up the ark with rejoicing and shouting and the sound of the horn. Feelings shouldn’t be manipulated by “worship leaders”, but if you’re feeling the joy of the Lord, there should be no problem in expressing it!
I spent decades in the charismatic movement as well as general evangelical traditions before coming to the reformed tradition and he is pretty much correct about the emotionalism and experiential aspects of their worship.
I agree that Christianity should not just be emotional and experiential, but I also think they a genuine faith involves emotion and experience. You don't need to throw the baby out with the bath water.
Music in church started by Hillsong is so musically boring, the leaders have almost zero musical training. It’s like a pastor who only read one chapter of the Bible
Not a Hill Song fan, but can we agree that: *ALL WORSHIP MUSIC IS CHRISTIAN MUSIC, BUT NOT ALL CHRISTIAN MUSIC IS WORSHIP MUSIC* ❓ _And_ .... *Not all Christian music comes from Christian music labels or Christian radio.* We cannot count on so-called Christian Record labels and Christian radio stations to curate our music. As such, we should be cautious on what to condemn. Now, if Hill Song is singing these prosperity crap songs as "worship music," then that may be blasphemy. Worship music should be sacred. Other music is subjective to the listener as the Holy Spirit gives us His discernment.
@@MikeeJ1245 Right! So, if a Christian writes a song that does not pass for worship music, some call it sinful or blasphemous, or whatever. And if a song has what could pass for worship lyrics is released by a secular record label, it's not allowed to be worship music, and not even Christian music. I think of the song Shine by Collective Soul. That song could be used as worship music. Yet, it was released on Atlantic, so nope. I personally know the writer of that song and know his father is (or was) a pastor and that the writer of the song is a Christian. He's just not under a Christian label. I think the many self appointed critics in the church do a disservice to the church by not understanding how to curate Christian music. There needs to be some type of counsel, or nonprofit that helps Christians do this.
@@mikes5079 Okay points noted. I am not too familiar with the case you mentioned so I will have to check it out. I also do not agree that once the music is not considered worship means it is "good for nothing." Nor do I get the sentiment that the speaker is saying that... I think you are classing all music that has biblical content "worship." It would be helpful to consider: 1. Praise and worship and two different things. 2. Praise is moreso giving thanks to God (for all he has done) 3. Worship is the more intimate connection and fellowship with God on a personal level. So as my comment alluded to...not all "Christian" music is worship and [more importantly] not only worship is found in "Christian" music. So I would say those more modern age groups (like Elevation 'worship' group or what Hill song has become) are inherently misleading as they are moreso making praise music (giving thanks, more emotional tones, not essentially spiritual but emotional) which they then are labeling as worship. A distinction the masses do not identify which leads to problems as they consider it worship...and now with the content being heavy on the "prosperity gospel" it then leads people to think "hey so worship is the prosperity gospel" which then shapes their view of Christianity and what that intimate fellowship with God is all about..then when they understand hey it's not 'become a Christian and you'll be rich and have overwhelming earthly possessions'... their entire view of Christianity and the bible is flushed down the drain [as the emotional high subsides]...
What does covenant renewal mean? I’m ex Pentecostal/ baptist continuationism. I’m also not reformed. I don’t know what it means to renew a covenant among the people of God.
You had me til you said it wasn’t the words but the music. I agree with much of what you said but saying the music (I think you mean the melodies and harmonies) is communicating I can’t go that far. Many of our hymns came from melodies of the pubs.
No, no hymn tune came from pubs. And to deny music communicates and can be manipulative is to deny what Christians (and all people, for that matter) have believed for thousands of years.
Overall, agreed. But does this mean that iBob Kauflin is charismatic or Pentecostal? Because he believes in spontaneous worship. And who exactly should we turn to for modern hymns?
This is a good presentation, but it seems like it’s pulling its punches. Charismatic worship is idol worship, with man’s feelings as the idol. When we sing in this way, we’re chasing a known chemical reaction in the brain - a natural drug - and then calling that worship of the living God. That’s an idolatry. Everyone who worships in this way will suffer loss, both here and eternally. God will not be mocked.
What about playing these songs at a bible study or private event? (Not during a church service) my livelihood is playing shows and when I get booked to play these songs I look at it as performance and entertainment, not praise and worship, and I will not perform them during a church service. I also play rock music. So which is better / which is worse?
I agree that if this is your livelyhood and income you are working. I don't see nothing wrong. I see you are founded knowing the difference. I would ask God for guidance. God will never lead you astray. Give it some time. Remembering God's timing is not our timing...
@@jamietanksley3113 I am not sure what you mean by that. My couch does not glorify God. Does that make it wrong? Did you mean performing any song that does not glorify God is wrong? Or did you mean any career that does not glorify God is wrong? Please elaborate, I'm genuinely interested in what you mean by that statement.
No such thing as white magic it's all black 🖤 Nahum 3:1-6 Woe to the bloody city! it is all full of lies and robbery; the prey departeth not; The noise of a whip, and the noise of the rattling of the wheels, and of the pransing horses, and of the jumping chariots. The horseman lifteth up both the bright sword and the glittering spear: and there is a multitude of slain, and a great number of carcases; and there is none end of their corpses; they stumble upon their corpses: Because of the multitude of the whoredoms of the wellfavoured harlot, the mistress of witchcrafts, that selleth nations through her whoredoms, and families through her witchcrafts. Behold, I am against thee, saith the LORD of hosts; and I will discover thy skirts upon thy face, and I will shew the nations thy nakedness, and the kingdoms thy shame. And I will cast abominable filth upon thee, and make thee vile, and will set thee as a gazingstock.
I was born into an ultra conservitive church and know every hymn backward and forward. Sometimes I'm in the mood for Amazing Grace or Washed in the Blood, sometimes Bill Gaither, sometimes I want to hear Stryper king of Kings, sometimes Brandon Lake, sometimes Riley Clemmons and sometimes Demon Hunter. Why do you give a rip about what your brothers and sister praise God with???? Pull the 2x12 plank out of your eye and maybe you can see the speck in someone else's. Like Peter in Acts 10, your acting like a pharisee, looking at the outside and not what's in the heart.
Look I love G3, and I agree with the title of this, because I came out of years of pain and deception that were caused by Hillsong and Bethel, and their ilk. But come on man. With love and respect, I can’t take anyone seriously who has orange paint on their face and cannot back up what they are saying without scripture. It’s not too late to remove this video. This is not a video that is able to be shared as a witness. Please, do better than this.
How can you defend ANY songs and/or music that glorifies self and "me?!, " As a Follower of the Lord Jesus Christ(I'm assuming You are a Christian), You should know and do better, Church should NOT be about us, Blessings always ❤️
@@jamietanksley3113EVER HEARD THIS SONG… Jesus be the center of my life Jesus be the center of my life From beginning to the end It will always be, it's always been You Jesus, Jesus Nothing else matters Nothing in this world will do 'Cause Jesus You're the center Everything revolves around You Jesus You From my heart to the Heavens Jesus be the center It's all about You Yes it's all about You
I joined the RPCNA church 5 years ago. The Psalms are Gods given inspired songs for worship. So grateful to the Lord revealing this to me! Get uninspired music out of the Christian worship services.
Here we are, in 2024, now talking about problems that were voiced over 30 years ago. And more! How did all this "sneak up on us?" It didn't. Apostacy, like cancer, is insidious. "Here, a little, there, a little...". There's a lot of "spiritualism," but not a lot of truth.
Thank you.This was enlightening. Worship that seeks to invoke God's presence seems fleshly. Many pagan cultures sing and dance with abandon. As they do so, spirits descend on the worshipper. I've seen this often in my country India. The frenzy I see in some Christian worship seems unholy. Thank you for laying this out so clearly.🙏
Not once did you give us a true definition of what worship is, why we worship and how we worship. Start with that and if you have a beef with Hillsong, Bethel, Elevation - go talk to them
What you stated between 9:30 and 9:45 is spot on and 100% correct. Truly. I grew up in a Baptist church in Toronto, Canada with one of the biggest forced air pipe organs. All those old time hymms would give me goose bumps on a hot July day. That was cool and part of the worship service which centered upon the 30 minute sermon. No flashy stuff. I often thought about why now have rock and roll at church, but at 63, looking back at the insanity of what your video is all about, makes me say, no way...The emotions of gratitude for the Lord comes from old style music as part of the bigger Christ centered picture of sharing the gospel of salvation...not the other way around.
The real issue is how your going to make friends with hillsong rather then telling them they are wrong? Is anyone going to riverlife baptist church in Brisbane? Anyone care enough to head there to help them? As they are deep in bethel and elevation? Will G3 pastor care??????
Psalms 150:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power. 2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness. 3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp. 4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs. 5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals. 6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.
All this is plain and quite obvious. Question: To be consistent do we not sing songs written by Martin Luther for similar reasons? Our church still sing one or two songs from Hillsong like - ‘Worthy is the Lamb’.
I was saved under the preaching of a pentecostsl pastor many years ago, although I did not understand everything about being saved at that time I knew I was a sinner and that I needed to repent. The preaching made that obvious. To date life as a christian for me has been both rewarding and difficult, painful and yet joyful, my failings mistakes and sins are mine to own, I would say that I have grown slowly. I did not know anything about church or church life at the point of my salvation, I had to learn, and I admit I made it really difficult for myself, obedience to God has to be learned whilst un-learning my old way of life. It takes time. But, at that time, our point of praise was the 'Redemption Hymnal' full of old hymns, these were amazing and a joy to sing, bearing in mind that I had been blessed with a fairly good voice I learned the hymns and sang them enthusiastically. As did those around me. Then, times changed, certain factions (and they were factions) tried to bring in other songs that weren't in the hymnal, we maybe, or I weren't aware of their origin, but we began to accept them alongside the hymnal and sing them. Then, it changed again, and the hymnal was relegated to bookshelves as the overhead screen beamed out the 'new' songs with a new way of singing them. No one was aware of the supposed heretical content of them, funnily, I have listened to other expositors who have stated that some of the hymns we sang had heretical content, full circle we have come in one sense, this 'new' way of praise split churches, ruined congregations, resulting in people leaving churches to start their own, where they could sing these songs until the cows came home. Long story short (perhaps) I now attend a church, where it is prescriptive praise, i.e. sing a song or two, sit down, the minister prays, we get up again and sing another two songs, sit down, listen to announcements, maybe another memeber of the congregation has something to share, then we listen to the Word of God preached or taught depends on your preference. Finally, another song to finish. End of service. Go home. But, coming from a charismatic church, as we did prior the church i've just described, it is good for us. The charismatic church was not, production ruled, band ruled, same song continuously sang, in an attempt to 'whip' the congregation up. But, and heres the but, sir, you exposit these wrongs of these songs well, identifying there heretical stance, and this right, yet you do not annouce any alternative. Has not God given us voices, did He bless us with emotions for us to respond to the very fact that He has redeemed us, and not emotions for the sake of emotion, but a true response from our grateful heart's. I would imagine that many here adding their comments get emotional about a football game, or maybe politics (really) or the birthday of a child, or indeed your own wedding. So, when we as the Fathers redeemed children praise Him for all that He has done, do we sing a song of praise as a derth or do we sing from thankful, grateful hearts, with abounding joy and love for our Saviour, but, no alternative songs are spoken of, and many are those who speak against the charismatic songs, and rightly so, who do not suggest another way of praising our glorious God. Perhaps, you have no other alternative, yet as for me 'I will enter His gates with thanksgiving in my heart, I will enter His courts with praise' I will be glad.
He had many good things to say but his conclusion at the end was not biblical: 18:36 - "What is most potently formative for the people in the pew, a doctrinal statement on a Churches website or how they worship week in and week out?" That statement degrades truth and scriptural confessions. That statement, to make his point, actually comes onto the side of hillsong theology by saying that the music in your Church is more powerful, formative and worship full than scripture, truth and good doctrine! So he uses a charismatic theology to completely oust charismatic music in the name of reformed truth. That is very inconsistent. Furthermore, there at the end, he acted like the sound of the music from hillsong, etc...is unbiblical and sports a subtle misleading theology through the sound. I don't know of anywhere in the Bible that talks about a seducing sound. If Hillsong music does give you an extatic feeling of God's goodness then so be it. Other songs that we choose as our favorites do too. Again, I firmly disagree with his use of the term "worship" implied in his conclusion (18:36) to explain why we shouldn't sing hillsong music in Church. He used the word narrowly like we're training our congregations to know how to worship through music. He actually contradicted the very point that he critiqued in charismatic pentecostal musical theology, and that is an inaccurate emphasis on music as a gateway to the presence of God/THE form of worship. He said that we train our congregation to worship wrongly when singing these songs but worship is not primarily musical. Worship according to reformed understanding of Scritpure is a response to who God is with your whole life, 24/7. It is not merely musical. Worship is holistic not reserved for music only. In fact, the reformed understanding of worship would center on the preaching of the Word of God and musical worship is a response to that. So I disagreed with his reason for canceling hillsong music entirely. How about the song, "Mighty to Save?" That is a great song and it is by hillsong. I find nothing theologically disturbing or eery in the sound of that song. Anyways, I think the guy had a lot of good things and concerns to say, but his conclusion was not congruent with the rest of his argument and simply not biblically backed. I'm open for any remarks on this.
We just got a new more traditional music director 🎹🎶🎵 & he doesn't use our old Hillsong music books & replaced them with new hymnals I suspect for theological if not aesthetic reasons
A lot of the old hymns were written with a largely illiterate community in mind so a good deal of actual Scriptures were packed into those songs & being of a rhyming nature it meant folks were learning & remembering God's word when they maybe couldn't read for themselves or had little access to a Bible. Even these days, to come across the familiar words of an old hymn staring up at you from Scripture (its original source) it sends a tingle down my spine! So many of the modern 'worship songs' are just bland & overly repetitive - & mostly about what God does for 'me' or how He makes 'me' feel, rather than me offering my praise & worship to Him.
Seems like most of the top worship songs are actually JAMMED full of theology AND have very simple and poetic lyrics… I cast my mind to Calvary Where Jesus bled and died for me I see His wounds, His hands, His feet My Saviour on that cursed tree His body bound and drenched in tears They laid Him down in Joseph's tomb The entrance sealed by heavy stone Messiah still and all alone O praise the Name of the Lord our God O praise His Name forevermore For endless days we will sing Your praise Oh Lord, oh Lord our God Then on the third at break of dawn The Son of heaven rose again O trampled death, where is your sting? The angels roar for Christ the King O praise the Name of the Lord our God O praise His Name forevermore For endless days we will sing Your praise Oh Lord, oh Lord our God He shall return in robes of white The blazing sun shall pierce the night And I will rise among the saints My gaze transfixed on Jesus' face O praise the Name of the Lord our God O praise His Name forevermore For endless days we will sing Your praise Oh Lord, oh Lord our God O praise the Name of the Lord our God O praise His Name forevermore For endless days we will sing Your praise Oh Lord, oh Lord our God Oh Lord, oh Lord our God
I totally agree. I came from the charismatic church. But I Am gone 8 years and when I studied The Bible I ser Nothing of First praising And then worshipping. I know it Is not about Emotions... But it seems always with The Praise and Worship songs that you Experience something. It felt very real. Everybody told me that is The presence of The Lord.. sometimes I found this very difficult. Is it the presence of the lord or is it.... I'm still struggling with this question.
Liturgical worship is nothing more than stoicism, its not Biblical. If you notice there was only one scripture given and it wasn't an example of worship. Most of the sources justifying his position are qoutes... even quoting a sociologist. Signs of liturgy didn't start until 600 years after Christ and took hundreds of years to form. Biblical worship is emotional. Psalm 33:3 Sing to him a new song; play skillfully on the strings, with loud shouts. 2 Samuel 6 5 David and all Israel were celebrating with all their might before the Lord, with castanets, harps, lyres, timbrels, sistrums and cymbals. 2 Samuel 6 14 And David danced before the Lord with all his might, wearing a priestly garment. 15 So David and all the people of Israel brought up the Ark of the Lord with shouts of joy and the blowing of rams’ horns.
I understand the importance of being theologically correct when engaging in praise and worship. But i wouldnt take it from a hard core reformed voice. Reformed (5 point Calvinism to be exact) theology is problematic in itself.
Your comments during 0:29-0:42 shown that you don't understand the truth of Jesus's power. I would suggest you to humbly read the bible again and may the Holy Spirit open your eyes to understand the truth.
Wait, so which Hillsong songs aren’t theologically sound? It sounds like you and others have an issues with the way Pentecostals worship or how they “use” worship. I’m still unsure as to specific reason Hillsong songs (as a whole) are not biblical 🤔 where are your examples of specific lyrics and their opposition to scripture?
We need to go back to hymns , this is very God honoring and the music you mention is from false churches and false teachers and is pure evil ! Churches that won’t repent from this music is because they want to entertain the goats because the true sheep want to honor God .
Organ? From 7:22 😅😂🤣You kidding? You hinted the organ is used? Pentecostals and John Wimber’s New Wine never used an organ. They thrive on loud and soft guitars, young voices and drums, especially those loudest-sounding drums.
I agree with Judson Cornwall. I've been involved in worship for years - personally and corporately. Praise comes first, in which we focus on God. Worship is the quiet presence of God, both personally and corporately. Yes, music is HUGE in in our encountering a person God - the God of the universe. I believe that God inspires the lyrics and the melody line of songs - some are to be used for our personal worship only - others are adaptable for groups. One of the questions that I've had, is about the lives of those participating in worship "leadership". Do their personal lives remain pure before a holy God - taking their gifts seriously - with accountability before God. Personally, I have found the Messianic worship to be the purest in recent years - because so much of the songs are directly from scripture - just with a singable tune suited for corporate worship and easy for the layman to pick up - and in the appropriate keys, of course.
I did this modernist worship for almost 15 years. Bottom line: it’s emotional manipulation, and it works by theologically tricking people into the unscriptual idea that the Holy Spirit is to be equated with feelings (which btw is not unlike Mormonism’s “burning in the bosom.”)
Exactly!
Any kind of song is emotional maltipal including hymns, the arguments against hillsong were once used by the church to discouagre hymns in favour of latin mass
And people who try to equate Christians who use questionable worship songs with Mormons are not un like the Pharisees, you know the judgemental ones in the Bible..... Lol. See what I did there?
so YOU are not attempting to use YOUR emotional manipulation.....
by YOUR theologically trickery.....
to talk people into YOUR unscriptual idea's....
that the Holy Spirit is to be equated to.....
what YOUR feelings say we should feel?????
So, a burning in the bosom is not scriptural just because of the Mormons? Guess those guys on the road to Emmaus were the start of a cult.
50 years drumming experience all genres, sessions, teaching etc, etc. I will never play drums in a church again. The whole worship band thing has become a cult all it's own with in churches. It's a monumental waste of financial resources that need to be used to feed people.
I am in total bliss and peace in a little church with just a piano. Music is once again in it's proper place far in the distance hardly there as a thin layer upholding the most important thing... The message of the hymns.
There are videos here on UA-cam where churches boast of the thousands of dollars on soundboards, lights, and amplifiers to "capture the moment".
Give me true worship and a cappella anytime. The performance mimics the secular every time.
Bring back the hymnals. Many wrote the hymns with deep thought and had everyone able to sing it. Today's music is terrible. All it does is raise the adrenaline and it wears off by the time the sermon starts.
Just sets the mood but not the passion.
Satan was not a music director in heaven. There is no verse that says that.
@@rhondae8222
My wife wanted to visit an old church with a new pastor. He compared his rebirth to a "putting the misery out of an injured deer".
So many modern pastors want to relate to the congregation instead of being anointed and preach a solid sermon.
I spend more time listening to Leonard Ravenhill and A. W. Tozer, then read from the olden preachers. Rather be challenged than feeling good.
@@catpocalypsenow8090 Was Satan the head musician? This cannot be answered definitively. Scripture does not say enough about what his duties were in heaven. Considering the fact that the angels constantly worship God (Isaiah 6:3; Revelation 4:8), it is possible that Satan led that worship. One thing is sure: for Satan to rebel despite having such an exalted position and close relationship with God, the devil is surely due his eternal destiny (Revelation 20:10).
Many pagan cultures use drums as a means of whipping up frenzy. So yes ditching drums could be a way to restore holiness to worship.
A friend of mine calls it “7-11 music” Seven words repeated eleven times.
Some of the Psalms are very repetitive. Though
not me thinking they have the quality of 7-11 sandwiches
They say Catholics do "vain repititions" praying the Rosary, then perform a 30 minute song where they sing "he is worthy, he is high and lifted up" approximately 70000 times.
ay and night they never stop saying:
“‘Holy, holy, holy
is the Lord God Almighty,’[a]
who was, and is, and is to come.”
ve thanks to the LORD, for he is good. His love endures forever.
2
Give thanks to the God of gods. His love endures forever.
3
Give thanks to the Lord of lords: His love endures forever.
4
to him who alone does great wonders, His love endures forever.
5
who by his understanding made the heavens, His love endures forever.
6
who spread out the earth upon the waters, His love endures forever.
7
who made the great lights-- His love endures forever.
8
the sun to govern the day, His love endures forever.
9
the moon and stars to govern the night; His love endures forever.
10
to him who struck down the firstborn of Egypt His love endures forever.
11
and brought Israel out from among them His love endures forever.
12
with a mighty hand and outstretched arm; His love endures forever.
13
to him who divided the Red Sea [1] asunder His love endures forever.
14
and brought Israel through the midst of it, His love endures forever.
15
but swept Pharaoh and his army into the Red Sea; His love endures forever.
16
to him who led his people through the desert, His love endures forever.
17
who struck down great kings, His love endures forever.
18
and killed mighty kings-- His love endures forever.
19
Sihon king of the Amorites His love endures forever.
20
and Og king of Bashan-- His love endures forever.
21
and gave their land as an inheritance, His love endures forever.
22
an inheritance to his servant Israel; His love endures forever.
23
to the One who remembered us in our low estate His love endures forever.
24
and freed us from our enemies, His love endures forever.
25
and who gives food to every creature. His love endures forever.
26
Give thanks to the God of heaven. His love endures forever.
[13] Hebrew Yam Suph; that is, Sea of Reeds; also in verse 15
The angels cry Holy Holy Holy. One word.
Whilst I agree with some of the points made and would never personally go to one of these churches because of their theology and leadership; I found this a massive generalisation and a poor way to argue some theological differences. There are problems on all ‘sides’. We need to remember whose church this is. There are genuine saints in all ‘expressions’ of the church on earth. Whilst a warning to stay biblical and theologically sound is good for all l, we should always be striving for unity - whatever our earthly understanding of some of these things are. None of us are perfect or have it 100% right.
Worship is perhaps more than anything a heart issue. What’s the motive for your worship? Sung worship is only a part of worship of God. You could be singing the most theologically correct song, but if you’re singing it just because it’s what’s done or you’re just going through the motions. God looks at the heart, the outside might appear clean and to be doing it ‘right’ but if the heart isn’t right - He’ll know. We worship Him, regardless of how we feel because He is worthy of it, all the time. Of course the challenge is for us to so be submitted to Him as Lord that His spirit changes us and we worship Him in spirit and in truth. Denying ourselves and pressing through the distractions of the world to focus on Him. To do that honestly 100% of the time is a challenge we face daily.
Personally I also find it odd that emotions are attacked here. We should not be led by them and must pray the fruits of the spirit outwork more and more. However, again personally I think if we do not have an emotional response for what God has done for us - the response of his spirit in us and the revelation it brings - are we really Christians? Gods work for us and in us demands a response from all we are, for He made us to Glorify Him. To praise, to sing, to be still on our knees and everything in between. David dances in a loin cloth before the people and his God. Gods Word is full of different expressions of worship and praise in response to the revelation of God.
Lastly, even if these song writers and leaders mean these songs for gain, God can and does still use them for His good and His Glory. I don’t believe ‘painting them all or us all with the same brush’ is helpful. We should all be watchful and aware.
@@bensharpe7846 couldn’t have said this better. Big like
Spot on!
yup... apparently Amazing Grace was written by a "wretch".
Listen, Moses leads the people through the Red Sea. In response to God's work Miriam grabs a tambourine and leads an outburst of spontaneous praise. God manifests his presence with a miracle -> emotional worship
Solomon spends days obediently dedicating the temple of God in elaborate acts of worship -> God manifests his presence.
God's like: I'll come down either way if any of you will worship me.
Well said. Couldn’t agree more.
Could not agree more. Worship is a heart issue. And because it is, it also involves our emotions. The woman who broke her alabaster jar "cried", her tears fell on Jesus's feet. She was filled with emotions for the Lord and the Lord commended her. Each song should be evaluated for its theological as well as musical merits and not dismiss it for simply what church it comes from.
Amen. Let’s stop the “ Jesus is my boyfriend “ emotional approach to worshiping our creator.
yea, Jesus is my dictator is so much better. Atleast you don't generalize all things you disagree with into silly phrases.
@@atyt11christ is not our equal.
It’s blasphemous to sing songs that romanticize “christians” relationship with the Lord.
When John met the Lord face to face he fell to the floor as a dead man because of fear and reverence
@@andriesbritz6061 Jesus is the Lord God. Have you ever taken a moment to think where some people are in their walk? Where you are and where you have been? We meet the Lord at different points in our lives. Maybe a broken home, fatherless, abused family situation needs Jesus in a way that relates only to them and NOT to you.
You are to do you, fall on your face, do as God calls you. and.... I promise, Your need to judge and call out eye specks is not helping.
Jesus said the first would be last and He served more undeserving people than you and I will in our full lifetimes.
Again, Jesus is the Lord God, but he chose to be the servent.
He is all these things below and much more.........
Alpha and Omega ·
Immanuel ·
King of Kings ·
Light of the World ·
Morning Star ·
Prince of Peace ·
Wonderful Counselor ·
Lamb of God ·
Saviour of the World ·
The Good Shepherd ·
The Way · Lord of Lords ·
Anointed One ·
Bread of Life ·
Chief Cornerstone ·
Great High Priest ·
Holy and Righteous One
Why? Jesus hates emotions?
@@kevinhutchins4222 I know, right? As if God made us anti-emotion robots. And...God must not have an emotions at all....🤔🙄except He seems to in the Bible
Therefore whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. I Corinthians 10:31
Bring back hymnals and loose the screens in a sanctuary. Hard to find a worshipful church. Give people an hour break from their screens.
or you could go to the church that you choose to worship in and let others do the same without telling them you think you know best how to praise the Lord.
Stopped last year when I took over as worship director at my church. We had a little pushback, but mostly people understand.
I wish that was the case at our church for my wife and I, but unfortunately we could stay no longer because the church leadership would not listen.
@@TerryF-ht4qfExperienced the same. Took awhile but we have found a great church!
@@shipace1 us too!
Stumbled on this video, having only a vague knowledge of the "stop listening to Hillsong" blogs, etc. If a born-again believer is singing/worshipping and praising the Lord with their church, and with lyrics that align with scripture....I simply don't see the issue here. Too many comments on denomination, doctrine, etc. CHRIST is the center, period. Listen to the Holy Spirit, stay in the word and pray! One of my favorite Hillsong pieces is King of Kings, and I've yet to find anything that doesn't align with scripture.
I don't often comment, and I haven't followed the video to the end, but from personal experience the problem with the use of Hillsong and Bethel is not that every song has bad lyrics. It is simply not true. The problem is what songs they don't sing and why. They want songs that generate or promote certain emotions and exclude those that are what they see as "dampeners". My wife and I had a "fight" on exactly this issue with a church, before even Bethel and Hillsong existed. It is the desire to focus on "positive" emotions such as praise to the exclusion of more difficult issues like suffering. The Psalms contain both. We challenged our church that they, with their songs, were creating a very difficult emotional environment for people who were going through hard times. It is not that we should get rid of the songs of praise and jubulation, but that we must be also prepared to sing songs that deal with other aspects of the faith and of life as Christians.
I live in Germany so that I have the privilege of getting to know the hymns of Paul Gerhardt. One of his most famous hymns is "Befiehl du deine Wege" which you will find in Bach's Matthew Passion and a translation of the first verse is:
Commit whatever grieves you
At heart, and all thy ways,
To Him who never leaves thee,
On whom creation stays.
Who freest courses maketh
For clouds, and air, and wind,
And care who ever taketh
A path for thee to find.
Now I don't expect Bethel and Hillsong to match that hymn. Probably nobody ever has, but as a message in difficult times to commit our ways to God, to trust in Him who never leaves us, it is probably unmatched. It would be inappropriate to call that praise and it is not an expression of jubilation, but it is a message that can uplift us in difficult times.
"There was another in the fire
Standing next to me
There was another in the waters
Holding back the seas
And should I ever need reminding
Of how I've been set free
There is a cross that bears the burden
Where another died for me"
We are not Shadrack , Meshack and Abednego , we are also not Israelites walking through the parted waters.
This Elevation song is a skew form of worship.
We need to turn from the worship of me and I and worship the true Creator of heaven and earth with thankful hearts of the future assured from the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.
I am attracted to the words, This song says that I was never alone in all That I went through, I'm forever grateful to Jesus my Creator for
being there with me, Blessings always ❤️
@@Deej-er9tsWhat about the idea of self love? Didn't the "church ladies " promote that...Or at least the church?
Me, me, me. Most of these seemingly powerful and deep worship songs just make it all about "me". Compare this to just a classic old hymn and see the difference on where the worship is truly directed
There's "another in the fire" because the Holy spirit dwells in us believers. Are we in the fire then God will be there too. This song text is about God and is about me because I am a benefactor. I think this song expresses strong gratitude.
I went to an Assemblies of God college in the 90s. I walked away when they started teaching us how to manipulate people with song placement and other things discussed here. If we have to do songs in a certain way, and using certain songs, it’s emotional and not a real move of God.
“Enter into His gates with thanksgiving and into His courts with Praise” (Psm. 100:4).
I'm 10 minutes in... I'm sorry was this supposed to reveal a "huge" problem with HillSong and Bethel music? Because I must have missed it. Please just lay out your accusations. It should be easy: 'Every fact' (accusation) must be confirmed by two or three witnesses. So lay out your charge based on scripture in context, and the other scriptures which CLEARLY corroborate the charge. Without that, what you have is opinion or (worse) slander. Judging others on how they worship the true God doesn't end well. Have you forgotten the woman who ministered to the feet of Jesus with only sobs and tears? (Would the theological content of her sobbing meet your religious requirements?) Jesus directly confronted the critics who attacked her, to defend and commend her.
I will continue to worship Jesus with whatever song honours Him for who He is, in truth (many, many HillSong/Bethel songs qualify), that moves me physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually (as music was His idea and He made us to respond to it). And I hope to be even more undignified than this. I will sing in the spirit, and I will sing with my understanding also, following Paul's example. I hope this continues to cause me to more and more weep at Jesus' feet. Please, feel free to criticise or judge me for this, as His defence and commendation would be more than I could hope for.
calvanism is churning out a whole lot of these anti-Bethel/Hillsong, anti-Charismatic/Pentecostal youtubers
With that voice he should make it a bit shorter😂 can’t even pass 7 minutes mark. Long as they can make people meditate on God, turning thoughts toward God, I’d say they’re doing their job. I’m all for doctrine, but if one listen to their song for Bible study, there’s deeper problem than that.
Music is not meant to move you; it’s meant as a way to teach you.
Wow the disgusting foolishness in these statements and the foolish man who just wrote an article trying to sound wise but has as much wisdom as a swine wearing pearls is disgusting. Yes disgusting! The audacity to dishonor the Lord with this foolish statement is sad. I will pray for you, but be careful foolish man, you allowed yourself to be deceived. You rely on your self satisfaction, rather than God's word. You have no scripture knowledge, and lack true wisdom. Repent! If not, then real what you sow from your dead tree
There are songs like, "The Goodness of God," by Hillsong that are not theologically compromising. I think the one main reason we should not engage with any of the music put out by these groups or those like them and those associated with them is that it opens the door for an individual to look further. And if you are not a mature Christian you could easily be taken captive by their false teachings. We know some hymns have inaccurate theological teachings but we are not banning hymns. For the mature in Christ, you must exercise discernment especially when dealing with music. For the immature and young, seek the counsel of your elders and those God has placed in your life to care for you.
That's it. My thoughts exactly.
I like Hillsong.
@@JungleJimmy-je1fv If you were to dig deep and do research about some of their questionable practices you might change your mind. Plus their "Jesus" is another Jesus.
@@JungleJimmy-je1fvYou said you like Hillsong,But doesn't Hillsong lift you up and not Jesus?
@@jamietanksley3113 No.
I'm a Christian a musician, and from a Pentecostal background. I couldn't agree more. There are so many believers who are on shaky ground because their roots are so shallow theologically. And a large part of it is that they live on a "junk food" diet of emotional experiences but don't "study to show themselves approved of God". Know in whom, what and why you believe, rooted in the Word of God so that you will "not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is.
Yes
❤
Amen.
Greetings from Westwood Baptist Church in Nashville, Tennessee!
9:14 "This theology of worship is a distinct break from the theology and expectation of Reformed Christians in the wake of the Reformation until the rise of American revivalism in the nineteenth century and Pentecostalism in the twentieth century. Worship theology that was reformed according to Scripture taught that emotion and singing come as a result of the work of the Holy Spirit in a believer’s life, not as a cause of the Holy Spirit’s work."
10:44 "The Holy Spirit works in a believer’s heart through the sufficient Word that he inspired and the ordinary means of grace he prescribed therein."
Yes! Thank you for this excellent article/video.
Another phenomenal discourse, Dr. Aniol. Peace and Grace brother.
This happens on the Fundamentalist side with the expectation that traveling evangelists are supposed to musically entertaining. Evangelists who just preach rarely get invited to churches to preach, but a guy who sings and the wife sings and plays piano, the kids sing well now you have a winner.
They have pastors who sing and play instruments like the piano who are just as emotional as the Pentecostal folks without the dancing and speaking in tongues. While they sing more classical music there’s still an elements of emotionalism and a push to have people come forth to the altar as a sign that the Holy Spirit is working on the hearts of those in attendance.
That's a really good point. Thanks for adding that to the conversation.
My friend, A professor of composition at a Bible college in my town told me that he and his peers in music instruction agree that todays "Worship offerings" are far from music at all... Just fluffy mantras... Empty, meaningless, pointless.
"Mantras" is a very interesting amd accurate word to use. As our friend here said, it is a style more aligned with pagan worship, and mantras are an essential part of many pagan religions.
I wonder why he and his friends and those of his like are not writing some songs that we can then sing in churches rather than having to sing the old hymns? I have no problem with replacing a bad preacher with a better one or a shallow song with a better song but if there's no better alternatives then the critics need to put up or......
@@michaelnewzealand1888 They do and have....
@@michaelnewzealand1888The "old songs "are beautiful,We are so much like the pagans..."New and Improved, " That seems to be what many churches are trying to give to their attendees,
Read Romans chapter ONE,Verse Eighteen and following
Bro sounds like the guy who would LAUD John Williams but DEMEAN Hans Zimmer…cause he thought he “relied too much on computers and synthy stuff”
🤣
I frequently lead worship at our church. I have come out of many years in the charismatic movement. So I have ceased using Hillsong music, etc. But I have enjoyed the music of Sovereign Grace and other more theologically sound songs.
Sovereign Grace and City Alight are both great
@markrogers7546 I love Sovereign Grace that's about all I listen to these days. If you like piano look up Greg Howlett. He does his own arrangements and is very gifted...
@@Bretde1thank you so much for those recommendations, so many Christ centered lyrics 🙌🏻🙏🏻 God bless you.
@@filipedanielpinamartins4501 Also, Keith & Kristen Getty, and Matt Boswell are very sound modern hymn writers.
Norton Hall Band does modern renditions of older hymns. Also, a small movement has begun to put Psalms to modern music. ua-cam.com/video/ZUFgOVsYtc4/v-deo.htmlsi=KjjBsFfq8MKWjWw3
Ok- so we all stop singing “Goodness of God” because it’s a Bethel song? There’s a lot of time and energy being spent by online Christian creators in pulling other believers down and criticizing how they worship. I find it hard to see how this honours God or truly benefits anyone. A house divided against itself cannot stand.
It benefits the ones who make the videos criticizing their brothers and sisters. They make money off of it.
The division is the work of Satan. God calls people how he calls them. What direction they take is on them. All is as God wills it.
Yep it’s all Nonesense. I think they should find something better to do
They are not Christian’s , they are false believers !
Teaching a false gospel so there is no devision !!!!
Ephesians 5:11
Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness , but instead expose them !
Philemon is the only book of the New Testament that does not warn against false teachers.
:I'm afraid his presentation will be opaque to a large number of today's Christians. The entire first half is a sequence of quotes from misguided folk, but without explanation as to why they are misguided. He expects the errors in the quotes stand out to his listeners - but they won't. Hillsong / Bethel Redding / IHOP theology is by now ubiquitous across American churches. He needs to make the two theologies distinct right from the outset - instead of waiting until 9:14.
1. Modern worship music is based on secular methods to sell and use adrenaline to make us feel good.
2. Much of these songs are repetitious and superficial.
3. How did worship music become a million dollar business?
4. Worship service is based on performance than worship itself.
I can't go to church today. Playing choruses and verses over and over to "make a point" turns it off for me. People just watch the performance. If you need a "worship leader" to instigate worship, there is a huge problem. It's because God isn't among us. If we did, we wouldn't need a worship band or music to give Him His worth in praise.
If only we knew Him as we should, worship would come routinely.
Maybe we need to examine our hearts as Paul told the church in Corinth (2 Cor. 13:5).
Sadly, we have used superficial worship music for our theology and relationship with God instead of knowing Him truthfully.
Or you could find a church that doesn’t do this? I go to a reformed church and we go through lots of scripture and only use the psalter for our music. The church my son attends uses hymns. There is no emotional manipulation .
Surely you can find a sound Bible-teaching church somewhere near you.
Are our worship songs meant to be totally devoid of emotion? Whilst I don't agree with using the songs of Hillsong, Bethel, etc, many of the psalms, the songs of the Wesleys, and other faithful writers are very emotional.
"And Can it Be", "When I Survey the Wondrous Cross", and other traditional hymns are very emotional and yet theologically sound.
@@carolyndavis6657
Here's the scoop.
I hold neither Calvinist or Arminian view completely. I do believe in the gifts, including tongues, but not in the Pentecostal doctrine. The sad part is you get three types of churches:
Those who are too hyper in the gifts.
Those who say they believe in the gifts but don't live accordingly.
Those who don't accept them at all. They ceased.
In my area, about 2/3rds have been modernized with "worship rock." Fancy light, loud music, performance driven.
Others still have the mix, of sorts, but their theology has changed.
Also, I am KJV. I cannot handle the modern translations and it's watered down wording. I could get more into it but I do not have the time and space to explain myself.
I see so many churches compromised where I live. Some have become apostate, accepting abominations into the congregation and leadership.
Prayer services are no longer Spirit-led. Just an enhanced Sunday service with selected ministries to "pray about". Just go through the motions services every week. And the demand for more money to pay off debt the leaders incurred, no thanks. People leave the same way they came in. No fear of God. I can't sense His presence in ANY church within 50 miles.
Frustrating.
@@markrogers7546
Never mentioned emotions, I said songs are written to make us feel good about our worship. It's directed more to us than Him. Lots of catchy biblical phrases today as well.
Not saying there hasn't been some good worship songs in the last thirty years. Much is built on selling and style, not on focusing on God's attributes, character and wondrous works. They are more redirected toward our feelings than knowing Him.
Worship and His glory drove the Jews to the knees and prostrated them to the ground. Now we stand and enjoy what the band is doing for us.
..... And once again a Reformist displays arrogance and a 'holier than thou' dismissal of brothers and sisters who have been bought with a very precious price by the One who loves mercy.
I align with Reformed Theology and I too believe there are a lot of those who align with it that are extremely smug and arrogant.
It’s pretty pervasive in the denomination in my experience unfortunately. It’s nice to see someone else validate that and help me realize that it wasn’t just me that sees this arrogance. Hopefully there’s a turn around.
@@FinestCrimsonI’m reformedish and I’d say my NonDenom Church is definitely a bit more “reformed” than most…but as far as our expressions of worship, they are varied and sometimes feel more Protestant, BUT (like our last worship night) can feel really pentecostal! 😄
Wow. I’m sorry so many have had legitimately negative experiences… but I’m also sad to see that there’s no open dialogue, just charismatic character assassination. Lots of genuine believers whose Pentecostal perspective is based on scripture… even if you think we’re wrong, most of us are your brothers.
It actually is…as I’ve studied the Bible more and more I’ve come to understand that it is ABSOLUTELY necessary to express Boisterous and ENTHUSIASTIC (even, undignified PRAISE) to our King of Kings and Lord of Lords JESUS!
My eyes have been opened to the sensual experience seeking church that I've been so used to all my life. I'm praying for courage to leave my charismatic emotion driven church but I keep getting told with a very smug look that non-charismatic churches are not 'Spirit filled' and that I'm making a mistake and to 'expect opposition' if I leave.
Jesus warned us that if we follow Him we Will face opposition and persecution,Do the Right thing and leave the consequences to Him, Blessings always ❤️
Jesus is neither your buddy NOR your boyfriend
Great comment.He is Lord Redeemer...and friend mediating the majesty and holiness of the Father.
Matthew 11:19
What a friend we have in Jesus all our sins and griefs to bear what a privilege to carry everything to God in prayer
@toolegittoquit_001 Yes! And God is not our daddy or papa.....
@@birdlover-zu7ezWhat does Abba Father mean?
I’m cool with “flow.” But I’m more interested in thematic and theological flow and smooth transitions. For me, this is about preparing hearts for the sermon, not trying to summon a spiritual experience.
Mysticism
This is the most comprehensive and thoughtful treatment of this topic I have ever seen. Thank you so much for sharing this. 🙏
Super instructive on the theology behind it. Ive known all the problems but not that specific part before. Thank you!
This is what I understood: Because the age of the apostle is over, there are no more spiritual gifts and because this worship expects the Holy Spirit to move, this worship is misleading.
And to justify this eradication of the spiritual gifts, extreme examples are used or personal sin is pointed too.
Now whatever style we prefer or argue, to believe that the spiritual gifts are no more, is a post biblical teaching and the one who argues this has actually left sola scriptura.
And the book of Psalm for example acknowledges that we are beings with emotions, in verses like 42:11; 23:3; 62:5-6; 34:18 or 103:1 the soul and our emotions are addressed. So what is so wrong about feeling the love deep within you.
So to be clear, a warning against abuse, especially manipulation or prosperity gospel is called for and good. To throw all ‘new’ worship under the bus, because one holds a post biblical teaching about the gifts of the spirit is just that: POST BIBLICAL!
Spirit-filling as a cause rather than a result of singing spiritual songs is a huge distinction, and a very important one.
Great explanation. Thank you for sharing content that gets us away from emotional pagan expression and brings us to biblical praise and worship.
Hillsong, Bethel, and Elevation are false churches with false teaching. The Bible in no uncertain terms tells us to have NOTHING to do with false teachers. That includes their ministries, and their musics are a part of their ministries. Be discerning, and do not fall into pragmatism that leads to harmful application that causes others to sin. Do not sing Bethel, Elevation, or Hillsong music.
This is exactly right! To me, it really is that simple.
This is exactly right! For me, it really is that simple.
@@kelliestewart1832 I don't think that is right to me it is wrong and it's really that simple. Imagine if you got saved in a church like Hillsong and somebody called you a heretic because you went to their church. You would probably have to say you are it's really that simple....., but I wouldn't say so
Far too critical and over zealous in your critique. What do you do with this- “Praise the Lord! Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty heavens! Praise him for his mighty deeds; praise him according to his excellent greatness! Praise him with trumpet sound; praise him with lute and harp! Praise him with tambourine and dance; praise him with strings and pipe! Praise him with sounding cymbals; praise him with loud clashing cymbals!”
That's different, as it is a Psalm ❤.
@@lee-lee2418Right. Thanks for setting me straight.
@@rhondae8222Based on whose theology?
@@jbartz2982NOT man-centered (self-) worship exhibited by their pop products
Yes that's 7-Eleven music, far too repetitive for me, I mean it might be scripture oops. Lol
They have a false theology,christology, and a false gospel. Why are you being so soft and sweet. Call false teachers and churches what they are!
Because he wants churches to stop playing these songs. If he just condemns them, then those on the edges will not listen as they'll think that he's being too critical. Highlighting issues without going too far will allow more leadership teams to listen to the points raised.
You are correct
Notice the picture of Brooke ligertwood on this vid. Her songs and collabs are pretty much straight from scripture and theologically solid. Ps she left Hillsong a few years ago.
Absolutely correct what a beautiful name it is and king of kings are filled with good Theology and wonderful verses about the king of kings our lord Jesus Christ.
@@michaelnewzealand1888 Agreed. Two exact songs that I've been listening to recently, and could not find anything seriously wrong with them. Quite the contrary, I found the to be a blessing to me. Also Hosanna. And I'm a Reformed Baptist.
To me it's like that old hymn It is Well With my Soul, whose author ended up a heretic. But no one avoids singing it.
But I do recognize this is a delicate topic...
It’s still become now about highlighting the music singer and emotions rather than the words towards the Lord
That may be the case for the most part. I admit, I never listened to either Hillsong or Bethel music, primarily because of being warned about them. But then I heard these few Hillsong songs we listed here (I might add also Cornerstone - which is almost verbatim that old My Hope Is Built on Nothing Less hymn, but with added refrain and put to modern music), and I found nothing really objectionable theologically in them. So there's that. And I'm sure there are more such songs.
But isn't music meant to evoke emotions? And if biblically sound lyrics are combined with beautiful music (modern or otherwise), what could possibly be wrong with that? Does God expect us to stoically sing sound theology with minimal emotion (and God forbid raise your hands - which I personally don't, but don't object others doing so)? Or does God want us to involve our whole being in worship - both intellectual, and emotional aspects.
I know, it's a fine balance, and there are always people in the church who are carried away by emotions no matter which song we sing.
@@AMightyFortress sometimes it seems to be marketed that way. That's true. That's often not the wish of the singer-songwriters. I've long judged songs on their content. Is a theology correct? Is the music pleasing and fitting to the lyric? Is it singable by the average congregation? That's enough for me. If I can answer yes. Certainly there are better songwriters than others. Churches like Bethel, Hillsong and many others have fostered environments where singer-songwriters can grow and Thrive. They're a gift to the church.
I'd like to know what the original poster thinks about collaborations. For example, if Chris Tomlin and Jenni Johnson collaborate on a song, what do we do with it? EG. Holy forever
I think he misunderstands something of worship in charismatic congregations.
I do not believe that singing is the act that awakens worship in me. I often sing as an act of faith regardless how I am feeling at the time. I choose worship by faith. In those times, unfailingly this choice to worship in the determination of continued faith in God through all circumstances draws out in me the joy of God and His presence. There I find myself in the assembly of believers choosing likewise to praise and worship whatever their circumstances. I neither wait until I feel like it nor engage until I feel it. Neither can the music wait for us to get there. It is inherently a vehicle to convey right theology and an ecstatic experience. It plays, and we enter in.
Furthermore, if music has no emotional draw, it is simply not music. Sorry that I don't put a lot of stock into funeral marches. I'm not dead yet.
Pretty obvious this guy's problem is with continuationism.
In extremely shameful blasphemy Furtick has referred to himself as “god” , isn’t that what satan claimed?
Simple. Because with your money they can do almost anything as little gods. These clowns are not looking for some imaginary Heavens, their best life is now! And The Bible is just a means to get what they want NOW.
No he didn't, someone put up a video and took it out of context. I don't particularly like Steven Furtick but to make that claim about him just to make him look bad because you don't agree with some of his Theology and don't agree with his church style or music is lying. Maybe unintentionally.
I listened to that entire sermon and that’s exactly what he said!
@@kelliestewart1832I would agree
@@michaelnewzealand1888 Yes he most certainly did. Furtick stated verbatim "I am God Almighty"! He came out later to say that's not what he meant. But he did say it, so please do your homework.
Their music is great. What are you talking about?
It's Christ exalting. Trinitarian. It reaches the heart. It's influenced generations. It brings us closer to God; the Love of him and the fear of him.
I don't think you really can't look at the Bible and come up with a certain style or approach to musical worship and say "this is what we should all do, all of the time." Especially in a New Testament context, there is very little said about musical worship. Yet I don't think that's a mistake on God's part (obviously), but rather intentional. I think God appreciates the vast number of approaches and expressions of worship that we humans can offer. There is room for many styles of worship in the churches of Jesus, and criticizing style in my opinion is just stirring up needless disunity in the church.
Excellent explanation of the problems with this music. I was part of the “hypercharismatic” movement for 14 years, and music is a HUGE part of nearly every event. It is meant to draw people in, create an emotional response, and often creates an almost hypnotic state. Bill Johnson (Bethel) has said that people will respond to things in music that they wouldn’t consider through teaching. There is a big emphasis in this movement on feelings and experiences, and checking your mind at the door. Sounds like our present day culture, doesn’t it? The theology of much of it is problematic, the music itself is problematic, and when listeners and churches use the music they are financially supporting what these churches/organizations do and teach. With Bethel at least, what they do and teach is even worse than what they sing.
Well said!
1 Cor. 2:11
For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
Sad to see ministries calling out other believers like this. Just because something makes you uncomfortable doesn’t make it wrong. People are different and express their worship in different ways. Like this scripture above indicates, you don’t know what someone’s thoughts are, so you shouldn’t judge that. Especially when someone is acknowledging Jesus as Lord. You are making the gospel to complicated! Many of these groups produce 100% biblically accurate songs. This is a bad trend and look for your ministry, G3.
It's remarkable how much this Pentecostal worship directly mirrors eastern mysticism.
Most of it is the from the same spirit. It's a counterfeit spirit just as their Jesus.
funny how the judgmental, stuffy, liturgic, church you attend mirrors the ancient celtic church that worships nature. Big deal.
@@atyt11 there is so much ignorance in that statement all I have time for is to call it out and doubke down on a "Holy Spirit" that doesn't act like the one in scripture is an obvious tell.
You need to listen before you speak and learn to weigh a matter.
@@justinhadley2583 I love when people make absurd comments..."Pentecostal worship directly mirrors eastern mysticism" then clutch their pearls when called out on it. If you don't like snarky rebuttals then.....You need to listen before you speak and learn to weigh a matter. Wait.... have I not heard that somewhere before?🤔🤔
Justin ".. played guitar on a pentecostal church... I agree.
thank you for exposing this with such a clear explanation
There's a HUGE Problem with nitpicking theology which overlooks the sovereignty of God, which overlooks how God can use even human beings with character flaws, which does not acknowledge the powerful moving of the Holy Spirit in so many situations.
Question - does singing a song written by Bethel automatically mean you subscribe to every idea ever preached at Bethel?
NO.
What a beautiful name it is is a great song. I don't think saying that Jesus has a beautiful name, a wonderful name, a powerful name, is very vague or theologically incorrect somehow.
Absolutely
Its romanticizing worship and very shallow. Its purpose is to invoke an emotional response. THAT'S the problem which the video explains.
@@rhondajamison1747says who you do you know each individual heart that sing this song
@@rhondajamison1747 if it is romanticizing worship and very shallow then that is a concern, for sure, but I don't think it's the case in this particular song and in all cases to broad brush every Hillsong song is wrong. And something to consider also is that a shallow Christian song is way way better than a very demonic heavy metal song. So we should be careful in our criticisms. Some of the old hymns are great but some of them like a lot of biblical reference some of them are theologically incorrect and some of them may be quite shallow too. Some churches do have fairly shallow Theology others have fairly judgmental Theology where they sit in judgment of others without looking at themselves. In my opinion it would be more useful to have a video that just talks about good attributes of a worship song instead of broad brushing a whole group of people. Another thing about modern Christian songs is that they're normally written by young people who buy virtue of their youth are quite immature. However the mature Christians don't seem to be writing any songs so.....
@@michaelnewzealand1888In the last days they won't endure sound doctrine,But have itching ears Seeking people that will tell them what they want to hear❤
And I thought these songs were just cheesy, sentimental, chiche-ridden sludge. Bring on those classic hymns written by folks who wanted to glorify His Name, not the top spot on the CCM charts!
And speaking of CCM, we have the overlap of Sunday worship and Friday night concerts by guys like Phil Wickham. Wickham writes songs that many song leaders use on Sunday morning, but Wickham is doing some of those same songs in a Friday or Saturday night concert in which he's prancing around the stage like a cross between Mick Jagger and David Lee Roth. (Not to mention that Wickham collabs with guys like Brandon Lake and Brian Johnson of Bethel.) The whole industry is a mess.
I love singing the hymns.
@@carolberubee
If money wasn't involved, things might change in the music industry.
It’s funny, in the 90’s, Christians were complaining there shouldn’t just be Christian’s bands, but the Church should be the main influence when it comes to Christian music.
Now that’s the case, people want more Christian bands again.
The problem I have with these types of videos is that there’s so many bad things going on, if the worst is that the Church is preaching Jesus for selfish gain, well as Paul said in Philippians 1:15-18 …”But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.”
Sure let’s tell Christian’s to stop worshipping Jesus to a particular style of music, that’s definitely going to help their faith 🤦♂️
Who’s to say what these song writers hearts are, perhaps they had good intentions, it’s not like they’re behaving like king David, sleeping around and covering it up with murder. Ironically God forgave David because of his heart.
So the behaviour might look questionable, but God looks at the heart.
There’s only one “accuser of the brethren” and I don’t want to align myself with him, so why are Christian’s quick to do so?
Hi Scott, have you asked the leaders, of any of the Churches, which you critisise, about your concerns?
As kindly as I can say this. After watching this video, it kind of sounds like you don’t agree with the way David worshipped 2 Samuel 6, the way Mary worshipped John 12, and what Jesus told us is the greatest commandment in Matthew 22.
I’ve spent my whole life in charismatic church environments and I lead worship haha
Your issues with bethel and hillsong may be valid, I’ve never attended those churches so I can’t speak authoritatively to what takes place there regularly. However, almost every worship leader I’ve interacted with(from super reformed, to super pentecostal) place the emphasis of corporate worship on being biblical, genuine, and Christ-centered.
With everything taking place in our world right now we should focus on being unified under Jesus, rather than vilifying those in different church expressions.
"Experience proves that next to the Word of God only music deserves to be extolled as the mistress and governess of the feelings of the human heart."
- Martin Luther
@CalvinMaclure
Did you know that he had a very deep hatred for the Jews? Calvin did as well...
What do people think of Emmaus walks? People seem to go on these walks to obtain/feel these same experiences. People keep trying to get me to go but I do t think searching out feelings/experiences, often in groups where there is pressure, to be biblical. Thanks all.
So well put.
I came to the Lord through receiving and listening a song by Hillsong United. I testify that I supernaturally received the Holy Spirit right there, I prayed the prayer less than 2 months later and became a disciple of my Lord Jesus Christ. I believe God would and could have used any other way to bring me to Him but He used that song because He knew me. I agree especially on bethel there is questionable wording and theology and everyone MUST check everything they hear against the Bible, always. But just as much as you are calling out the wording of some of the songs, the scandals (totally valid points btw) and the praise culture especially in the charismatic movement, in my opinion you also need to work on UNITING christians among denominational differences and worship styles instead of emphasizing what is diving us in between different denominations and call litereally everything a false teaching without a solid theological base. Laying out a ton of fancy and complex sounding terminology alone does not make a solid Bible-based case, rather sounds like slandering a certain style of worship specially “preferred” in pentecostal churches. And yes, I am a worship leader and we do create a flow of worship you described and have an emphasis on praise but it is for one reason only to (surprise:) praise our one and only God. We are created to worship Him only, let people worship the Lord and have the Holy Spirit convict people about what to correct and go through their (and their leaders) sanctification process. Respectfully. God bless you dear brother in Christ!
So well said😀
“Then David danced before the Lord with all his might; and David was wearing a linen ephod. So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the Lord with shouting and with the sound of the trumpet. Now as the ark of the Lord came into the City of David, Michal, Saul’s daughter, looked through a window and saw King David leaping and whirling before the Lord; and she despised him in her heart. So they brought the ark of the Lord, and set it in its place in the midst of the tabernacle that David had erected for it. Then David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the Lord. And when David had finished offering burnt offerings and peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the Lord of hosts. Then he distributed among all the people, among the whole multitude of Israel, both the women and the men, to everyone a loaf of bread, a piece of meat, and a cake of raisins. So all the people departed, everyone to his house.”
“Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, “How glorious was the king of Israel today, uncovering himself today in the eyes of the maids of his servants, as one of the base fellows shamelessly uncovers himself!” So David said to Michal, “It was before the Lord, who chose me instead of your father and all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the Lord, over Israel. Therefore I will play music before the Lord. And I will be even more undignified than this, and will be humble in my own sight. But as for the maidservants of whom you have spoken, by them I will be held in honor.””
II Samuel 6:14-22 NKJV
Seems like a lot of Michael’s on this post.
Recently I came across 2 Samuel 6 when David “danced before the lord with all his might”…his wife “saw him leaping and dancing before the Lord”. They brought up the ark with rejoicing and shouting and the sound of the horn. Feelings shouldn’t be manipulated by “worship leaders”, but if you’re feeling the joy of the Lord, there should be no problem in expressing it!
I spent decades in the charismatic movement as well as general evangelical traditions before coming to the reformed tradition and he is pretty much correct about the emotionalism and experiential aspects of their worship.
I had a very similar experience to you brother.
I agree that Christianity should not just be emotional and experiential, but I also think they a genuine faith involves emotion and experience. You don't need to throw the baby out with the bath water.
I would like to know what the songs are?
Music in church started by Hillsong is so musically boring, the leaders have almost zero musical training. It’s like a pastor who only read one chapter of the Bible
Not a Hill Song fan, but can we agree that: *ALL WORSHIP MUSIC IS CHRISTIAN MUSIC, BUT NOT ALL CHRISTIAN MUSIC IS WORSHIP MUSIC* ❓ _And_ ....
*Not all Christian music comes from Christian music labels or Christian radio.* We cannot count on so-called Christian Record labels and Christian radio stations to curate our music. As such, we should be cautious on what to condemn. Now, if Hill Song is singing these prosperity crap songs as "worship music," then that may be blasphemy. Worship music should be sacred. Other music is subjective to the listener as the Holy Spirit gives us His discernment.
Thank you 🙏🏾.
@mikes5079 there lies the issue right, they consider it worship...all over their titles and lyrics
@@MikeeJ1245 Right! So, if a Christian writes a song that does not pass for worship music, some call it sinful or blasphemous, or whatever. And if a song has what could pass for worship lyrics is released by a secular record label, it's not allowed to be worship music, and not even Christian music. I think of the song Shine by Collective Soul. That song could be used as worship music. Yet, it was released on Atlantic, so nope. I personally know the writer of that song and know his father is (or was) a pastor and that the writer of the song is a Christian. He's just not under a Christian label. I think the many self appointed critics in the church do a disservice to the church by not understanding how to curate Christian music. There needs to be some type of counsel, or nonprofit that helps Christians do this.
@@mikes5079 Okay points noted. I am not too familiar with the case you mentioned so I will have to check it out. I also do not agree that once the music is not considered worship means it is "good for nothing."
Nor do I get the sentiment that the speaker is saying that... I think you are classing all music that has biblical content "worship." It would be helpful to consider:
1. Praise and worship and two different things.
2. Praise is moreso giving thanks to God (for all he has done)
3. Worship is the more intimate connection and fellowship with God on a personal level.
So as my comment alluded to...not all "Christian" music is worship and [more importantly] not only worship is found in "Christian" music. So I would say those more modern age groups (like Elevation 'worship' group or what Hill song has become) are inherently misleading as they are moreso making praise music (giving thanks, more emotional tones, not essentially spiritual but emotional) which they then are labeling as worship.
A distinction the masses do not identify which leads to problems as they consider it worship...and now with the content being heavy on the "prosperity gospel" it then leads people to think "hey so worship is the prosperity gospel" which then shapes their view of Christianity and what that intimate fellowship with God is all about..then when they understand hey it's not 'become a Christian and you'll be rich and have overwhelming earthly possessions'... their entire view of Christianity and the bible is flushed down the drain [as the emotional high subsides]...
What does covenant renewal mean? I’m ex Pentecostal/ baptist continuationism. I’m also not reformed. I don’t know what it means to renew a covenant among the people of God.
You had me til you said it wasn’t the words but the music. I agree with much of what you said but saying the music (I think you mean the melodies and harmonies) is communicating I can’t go that far. Many of our hymns came from melodies of the pubs.
Yep it’s true!
No, no hymn tune came from pubs. And to deny music communicates and can be manipulative is to deny what Christians (and all people, for that matter) have believed for thousands of years.
Overall, agreed. But does this mean that iBob Kauflin is charismatic or Pentecostal? Because he believes in spontaneous worship. And who exactly should we turn to for modern hymns?
youtube.com/@reawakenhymns?si=a8vXUVCmWvBTfAR_
Gettys
This is a good presentation, but it seems like it’s pulling its punches.
Charismatic worship is idol worship, with man’s feelings as the idol. When we sing in this way, we’re chasing a known chemical reaction in the brain - a natural drug - and then calling that worship of the living God.
That’s an idolatry. Everyone who worships in this way will suffer loss, both here and eternally. God will not be mocked.
Thank you for this!! As someone who speaks out against this I really love resources like this 👏🏼
What about playing these songs at a bible study or private event? (Not during a church service) my livelihood is playing shows and when I get booked to play these songs I look at it as performance and entertainment, not praise and worship, and I will not perform them during a church service. I also play rock music. So which is better / which is worse?
I agree that if this is your livelyhood and income you are working. I don't see nothing wrong.
I see you are founded knowing the difference.
I would ask God for guidance. God will never lead you astray. Give it some time. Remembering God's timing is not our timing...
@@elboo3727 Thank you for the kind words and encouragement.
Anything that does not Glorify God is wrong
@@jamietanksley3113 I am not sure what you mean by that. My couch does not glorify God. Does that make it wrong? Did you mean performing any song that does not glorify God is wrong? Or did you mean any career that does not glorify God is wrong? Please elaborate, I'm genuinely interested in what you mean by that statement.
This is an amazing conclusion of exactly what I used to think praise and worship was. Thank you for clarifying this and pointing to the error of it. 🙏
Much of which passes as worship in modern day "evangelical" churches is nothing less than white magic.
No such thing as white magic it's all black 🖤
Nahum 3:1-6 Woe to the bloody city! it is all full of lies and robbery; the prey departeth not;
The noise of a whip, and the noise of the rattling of the wheels, and of the pransing horses, and of the jumping chariots.
The horseman lifteth up both the bright sword and the glittering spear: and there is a multitude of slain, and a great number of carcases; and there is none end of their corpses; they stumble upon their corpses:
Because of the multitude of the whoredoms of the wellfavoured harlot, the mistress of witchcrafts, that selleth nations through her whoredoms, and families through her witchcrafts.
Behold, I am against thee, saith the LORD of hosts; and I will discover thy skirts upon thy face, and I will shew the nations thy nakedness, and the kingdoms thy shame.
And I will cast abominable filth upon thee, and make thee vile, and will set thee as a gazingstock.
Mysticism....
I was born into an ultra conservitive church and know every hymn backward and forward. Sometimes I'm in the mood for Amazing Grace or Washed in the Blood, sometimes Bill Gaither, sometimes I want to hear Stryper king of Kings, sometimes Brandon Lake, sometimes Riley Clemmons and sometimes Demon Hunter.
Why do you give a rip about what your brothers and sister praise God with????
Pull the 2x12 plank out of your eye and maybe you can see the speck in someone else's.
Like Peter in Acts 10, your acting like a pharisee, looking at the outside and not what's in the heart.
@@atyt11Love that you enjoy so many musical Expressions of Worship!
@@hiptoalieu Thanks much. Its nice to hear a positve comment. Any particular favorites yourself??
Look I love G3, and I agree with the title of this, because I came out of years of pain and deception that were caused by Hillsong and Bethel, and their ilk. But come on man. With love and respect, I can’t take anyone seriously who has orange paint on their face and cannot back up what they are saying without scripture. It’s not too late to remove this video. This is not a video that is able to be shared as a witness. Please, do better than this.
How can you defend ANY songs and/or music that glorifies self and "me?!, " As a Follower of the Lord Jesus Christ(I'm assuming You are a Christian), You should know and do better, Church should NOT be about us, Blessings always ❤️
@@jamietanksley3113EVER HEARD THIS SONG…
Jesus be the center of my life
Jesus be the center of my life
From beginning to the end
It will always be, it's always been You
Jesus, Jesus
Nothing else matters
Nothing in this world will do
'Cause Jesus You're the center
Everything revolves around You
Jesus You
From my heart to the Heavens
Jesus be the center
It's all about You
Yes it's all about You
I’m so very thankful for including God’s design of your discipleship’s of corporate worship!
I joined the RPCNA church 5 years ago. The Psalms are Gods given inspired songs for worship. So grateful to the Lord revealing this to me! Get uninspired music out of the Christian worship services.
Here we are, in 2024, now talking about problems that were voiced over 30 years ago. And more!
How did all this "sneak up on us?"
It didn't.
Apostacy, like cancer, is insidious. "Here, a little, there, a little...".
There's a lot of "spiritualism," but not a lot of truth.
Thank you.This was enlightening.
Worship that seeks to invoke God's presence seems fleshly. Many pagan cultures sing and dance with abandon. As they do so, spirits descend on the worshipper. I've seen this often in my country India. The frenzy I see in some Christian worship seems unholy. Thank you for laying this out so clearly.🙏
Glad y'all finally said something. Many have been calling it out well over a decade.
Not once did you give us a true definition of what worship is, why we worship and how we worship. Start with that and if you have a beef with Hillsong, Bethel, Elevation - go talk to them
What you stated between 9:30 and 9:45 is spot on and 100% correct. Truly. I grew up in a Baptist church in Toronto, Canada with one of the biggest forced air pipe organs. All those old time hymms would give me goose bumps on a hot July day. That was cool and part of the worship service which centered upon the 30 minute sermon. No flashy stuff. I often thought about why now have rock and roll at church, but at 63, looking back at the insanity of what your video is all about, makes me say, no way...The emotions of gratitude for the Lord comes from old style music as part of the bigger Christ centered picture of sharing the gospel of salvation...not the other way around.
FYI that pipe organ cost probably 4x -x5 more than a medium sized contemporary church’s lighting rig! 😆
Do you guys have a written article of all of this info?
The real issue is how your going to make friends with hillsong rather then telling them they are wrong? Is anyone going to riverlife baptist church in Brisbane? Anyone care enough to head there to help them? As they are deep in bethel and elevation? Will G3 pastor care??????
Psalms 150:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.
All this is plain and quite obvious. Question: To be consistent do we not sing songs written by Martin Luther for similar reasons? Our church still sing one or two songs from Hillsong like - ‘Worthy is the Lamb’.
@lancegoodall5911 Did you know that every time someone sings their songs they are supporting their ministry? It's like condoning what they believe....
I was saved under the preaching of a pentecostsl pastor many years ago, although I did not understand everything about being saved at that time I knew I was a sinner and that I needed to repent. The preaching made that obvious. To date life as a christian for me has been both rewarding and difficult, painful and yet joyful, my failings mistakes and sins are mine to own, I would say that I have grown slowly. I did not know anything about church or church life at the point of my salvation, I had to learn, and I admit I made it really difficult for myself, obedience to God has to be learned whilst un-learning my old way of life. It takes time. But, at that time, our point of praise was the 'Redemption Hymnal' full of old hymns, these were amazing and a joy to sing, bearing in mind that I had been blessed with a fairly good voice I learned the hymns and sang them enthusiastically. As did those around me. Then, times changed, certain factions (and they were factions) tried to bring in other songs that weren't in the hymnal, we maybe, or I weren't aware of their origin, but we began to accept them alongside the hymnal and sing them. Then, it changed again, and the hymnal was relegated to bookshelves as the overhead screen beamed out the 'new' songs with a new way of singing them. No one was aware of the supposed heretical content of them, funnily, I have listened to other expositors who have stated that some of the hymns we sang had heretical content, full circle we have come in one sense, this 'new' way of praise split churches, ruined congregations, resulting in people leaving churches to start their own, where they could sing these songs until the cows came home. Long story short (perhaps) I now attend a church, where it is prescriptive praise, i.e. sing a song or two, sit down, the minister prays, we get up again and sing another two songs, sit down, listen to announcements, maybe another memeber of the congregation has something to share, then we listen to the Word of God preached or taught depends on your preference. Finally, another song to finish. End of service. Go home. But, coming from a charismatic church, as we did prior the church i've just described, it is good for us. The charismatic church was not, production ruled, band ruled, same song continuously sang, in an attempt to 'whip' the congregation up. But, and heres the but, sir, you exposit these wrongs of these songs well, identifying there heretical stance, and this right, yet you do not annouce any alternative. Has not God given us voices, did He bless us with emotions for us to respond to the very fact that He has redeemed us, and not emotions for the sake of emotion, but a true response from our grateful heart's. I would imagine that many here adding their comments get emotional about a football game, or maybe politics (really) or the birthday of a child, or indeed your own wedding. So, when we as the Fathers redeemed children praise Him for all that He has done, do we sing a song of praise as a derth or do we sing from thankful, grateful hearts, with abounding joy and love for our Saviour, but, no alternative songs are spoken of, and many are those who speak against the charismatic songs, and rightly so, who do not suggest another way of praising our glorious God. Perhaps, you have no other alternative, yet as for me 'I will enter His gates with thanksgiving in my heart, I will enter His courts with praise' I will be glad.
He had many good things to say but his conclusion at the end was not biblical:
18:36 - "What is most potently formative for the people in the pew, a doctrinal statement on a Churches website or how they worship week in and week out?"
That statement degrades truth and scriptural confessions. That statement, to make his point, actually comes onto the side of hillsong theology by saying that the music in your Church is more powerful, formative and worship full than scripture, truth and good doctrine! So he uses a charismatic theology to completely oust charismatic music in the name of reformed truth. That is very inconsistent.
Furthermore, there at the end, he acted like the sound of the music from hillsong, etc...is unbiblical and sports a subtle misleading theology through the sound. I don't know of anywhere in the Bible that talks about a seducing sound. If Hillsong music does give you an extatic feeling of God's goodness then so be it. Other songs that we choose as our favorites do too. Again, I firmly disagree with his use of the term "worship" implied in his conclusion (18:36) to explain why we shouldn't sing hillsong music in Church. He used the word narrowly like we're training our congregations to know how to worship through music. He actually contradicted the very point that he critiqued in charismatic pentecostal musical theology, and that is an inaccurate emphasis on music as a gateway to the presence of God/THE form of worship. He said that we train our congregation to worship wrongly when singing these songs but worship is not primarily musical. Worship according to reformed understanding of Scritpure is a response to who God is with your whole life, 24/7. It is not merely musical. Worship is holistic not reserved for music only. In fact, the reformed understanding of worship would center on the preaching of the Word of God and musical worship is a response to that. So I disagreed with his reason for canceling hillsong music entirely. How about the song, "Mighty to Save?" That is a great song and it is by hillsong. I find nothing theologically disturbing or eery in the sound of that song. Anyways, I think the guy had a lot of good things and concerns to say, but his conclusion was not congruent with the rest of his argument and simply not biblically backed. I'm open for any remarks on this.
Well said, Biblically spoken. Thank you!
We just got a new more traditional music director 🎹🎶🎵 & he doesn't use our old Hillsong music books & replaced them with new hymnals I suspect for theological if not aesthetic reasons
Maverick City As Well!
EXCELLENT, thank you.
A lot of the old hymns were written with a largely illiterate community in mind so a good deal of actual Scriptures were packed into those songs & being of a rhyming nature it meant folks were learning & remembering God's word when they maybe couldn't read for themselves or had little access to a Bible. Even these days, to come across the familiar words of an old hymn staring up at you from Scripture (its original source) it sends a tingle down my spine!
So many of the modern 'worship songs' are just bland & overly repetitive - & mostly about what God does for 'me' or how He makes 'me' feel, rather than me offering my praise & worship to Him.
Seems like most of the top worship songs are actually JAMMED full of theology AND have very simple and poetic lyrics…
I cast my mind to Calvary
Where Jesus bled and died for me
I see His wounds, His hands, His feet
My Saviour on that cursed tree
His body bound and drenched in tears
They laid Him down in Joseph's tomb
The entrance sealed by heavy stone
Messiah still and all alone
O praise the Name of the Lord our God
O praise His Name forevermore
For endless days we will sing Your praise
Oh Lord, oh Lord our God
Then on the third at break of dawn
The Son of heaven rose again
O trampled death, where is your sting?
The angels roar for Christ the King
O praise the Name of the Lord our God
O praise His Name forevermore
For endless days we will sing Your praise
Oh Lord, oh Lord our God
He shall return in robes of white
The blazing sun shall pierce the night
And I will rise among the saints
My gaze transfixed on Jesus' face
O praise the Name of the Lord our God
O praise His Name forevermore
For endless days we will sing Your praise
Oh Lord, oh Lord our God
O praise the Name of the Lord our God
O praise His Name forevermore
For endless days we will sing Your praise
Oh Lord, oh Lord our God
Oh Lord, oh Lord our God
I totally agree. I came from the charismatic church. But I Am gone 8 years and when I studied The Bible I ser Nothing of First praising And then worshipping. I know it Is not about Emotions... But it seems always with The Praise and Worship songs that you Experience something. It felt very real. Everybody told me that is The presence of The Lord.. sometimes I found this very difficult. Is it the presence of the lord or is it.... I'm still struggling with this question.
2 Kings 3:15
But now bring me a harpist.” While the harpist was playing, the hand of the LORD came on Elisha
Liturgical worship is nothing more than stoicism, its not Biblical. If you notice there was only one scripture given and it wasn't an example of worship. Most of the sources justifying his position are qoutes... even quoting a sociologist. Signs of liturgy didn't start until 600 years after Christ and took hundreds of years to form. Biblical worship is emotional.
Psalm 33:3
Sing to him a new song; play skillfully on the strings, with loud shouts.
2 Samuel 6
5 David and all Israel were celebrating with all their might before the Lord, with castanets, harps, lyres, timbrels, sistrums and cymbals.
2 Samuel 6
14 And David danced before the Lord with all his might, wearing a priestly garment. 15 So David and all the people of Israel brought up the Ark of the Lord with shouts of joy and the blowing of rams’ horns.
I understand the importance of being theologically correct when engaging in praise and worship. But i wouldnt take it from a hard core reformed voice. Reformed (5 point Calvinism to be exact) theology is problematic in itself.
The problem with these "churches" and their music, it leads you to "another Jesus"
Your comments during 0:29-0:42 shown that you don't understand the truth of Jesus's power. I would suggest you to humbly read the bible again and may the Holy Spirit open your eyes to understand the truth.
Wait, so which Hillsong songs aren’t theologically sound? It sounds like you and others have an issues with the way Pentecostals worship or how they “use” worship. I’m still unsure as to specific reason Hillsong songs (as a whole) are not biblical 🤔 where are your examples of specific lyrics and their opposition to scripture?
We need to go back to hymns , this is very God honoring and the music you mention is from false churches and false teachers and is pure evil !
Churches that won’t repent from this music is because they want to entertain the goats because the true sheep want to honor God .
I forgive you brother. Raise a Hallelujah!
I would also add that these churches not only use the notes A-G but also use the pentatonic scale (let the reader understand).
OH GOSH are you gonna go there?!🤣😂 You DO KNOW that Amazing Grace is BUILT on the pentatonic scale!
Organ? From 7:22 😅😂🤣You kidding? You hinted the organ is used? Pentecostals and John Wimber’s New Wine never used an organ. They thrive on loud and soft guitars, young voices and drums, especially those loudest-sounding drums.
I agree with Judson Cornwall. I've been involved in worship for years - personally and corporately. Praise comes first, in which we focus on God. Worship is the quiet presence of God, both personally and corporately. Yes, music is HUGE in in our encountering a person God - the God of the universe. I believe that God inspires the lyrics and the melody line of songs - some are to be used for our personal worship only - others are adaptable for groups. One of the questions that I've had, is about the lives of those participating in worship "leadership". Do their personal lives remain pure before a holy God - taking their gifts seriously - with accountability before God. Personally, I have found the Messianic worship to be the purest in recent years - because so much of the songs are directly from scripture - just with a singable tune suited for corporate worship and easy for the layman to pick up - and in the appropriate keys, of course.