Another weird thing about sin’s kit you didn’t mention is his Still growing special, where he gets a random buff with a random timer and a random amount of effectiveness. This move is so ungodly useless it’s hilarious. If they reworked it so the buffs are a set amount on a set timer, then I could see it being actually usable, and if they gave him a food that refills his stamina meter then I could see it being useful to his game plan.
I know the move is gonna be god awful when I first saw it in the dev reveal, but the move is actually somehow even worse than I initially anticipated it to be, using it literally gimps yourself by sacrificing oki for basically nothing or getting counter hit for free
Yeah there's literally never a point in using it because you're playing a goofy RNG game that isn't felt rewarding compared to, say, Faust projectiles. I never sacrifice my oki for it lol. It's terrible.
Giving stamina was what it used to do. Sacrifice some stronger oki to get meter back. That's what I thought it WOULD be, since it's such an integral part of his gameplay in Xrd.
The patch notes are hilarious. Sin - hawk beaker follow up startup can no longer RC. RIGHT ABOVE THAT Buff for happy chaos, arguably the strongest character in the game
Love the vid but there is something wrong I noticed at: 4:15 Nago super comes out in 9 frames(7 + 2 after the flash). There is no invincible move or super that comes out in 8 frames or less than can punish sin's elk hunt on block and completely avoid the mix-up of delayed follow up or no follow up. Elk hunt still isn't as good as other neutral skip moves in the game as motioned, and the risk reward isn't really as good for sin, but wanted to point out this inaccuracy. Also there is no balance changes with the bedman update sooooo 6 MORE MONTHS OF LOW TIER CITY.
I mean honestly his special move followups are really good, it's just that the first hit of his specials are so universally shit that you essentially HAVE to spend stamina. I think if they got rid of his stamina meter and made all of his followups free he'd become a menace, but not with an unprecedented level of chicanery
@@MandyMixups for me what they should do is just make all his specials decent and make the follow ups absurdly good So basically u have good specials, that become absolutely game breaking if u spend the stamina Also for me u can still make sin work he is a character that can even win many matches in a row, them some people won tournaments with him, is just that compared to the rest of the cast he is so underpowered he can't compete in kit Also his normals need to get fixed a little too
@@firework0097 sounds like the same kind of problem anji has. Not Baaad attacks and his unique mechanic Can be useful in situations.. but compared to the tools other characters have he still seems to be at a disadvantage
@@youssefehab8748 >DLC character drops >Characters are adjusted and have the potential to be worse than they were I'm sure that's completely unrelated
Sadly, I don't think Sin will be receiving any changes with the Bedman? update. Arcsys' season 2 roadmap showed only one balance patch. And that one was in December... So, hopefully he'll get some good stuff for season 3 ^^ Cool video btw!
We gotta wait until s3 for balance updates that should of already happened? bruh…. Sin feels like a beta character like wtf… they better give us air beak driver and charge beak driver along with a bunch of buffs cuz that’s crazy
I always wanted his follow ups to be separate moves so he can have special to special canceling, how I understand nago works as well, this would immediately give his stamina a better use than restricting him, also using the run like a heat engager from Tekken 8 would have been crazy
Sin feels like a character that should have been a part of season 1 DLC, what I mean is that a lot of his problems he has seems very familiar to season 1 patch problems. Unsatisfying pokes, moves with way too much recovery frames, moves out of counter hit state not landing when in counter hit state etc. As Sajam said he feels like he's a patch behind. And the fact that he was paid DLC it's just a spin the face to everybody who is excited for the character.
Like ill be fighting my friends right and they will be like (Ayo why you do keep doing the same five moves) and ill reply with (literally that's all I can do). Such a waste of a good character I hope they fix his problems and soon.
I think that's a good way of putting it. But I think even in Season 1 he would've still been one of the worst characters, just probably not THE worst. His issues echo a lot of issues with season 1 Anji, which I alluded to in the video itself.
@@W.R.Kaiser Small chance he gets a QOL pass in the Bedman? patch, but its probably just hopium. ArcSys probaly has taken notice of the zero results + spooky bad rating update stats though, and considering the mostly good game balance rn im optimistic they have good changes in store. #MakeEatGreatAgain
Constructive feedback. 0:40 Correctly identified Sin's gameplan. Use stagger pressure and followups to condition opponent and run strike throw. 0:51 Sin's mixups are reactable. You just established that Sin is a strike throw character that uses conditioning. Saying his "mixups" are reactable makes no sense given your original statement. Sin is not a mixup character. 1:53 Without using stamina, Sin's neutral isn't very good Incorrect, without using stamina, Sin's neutral isn't as good as it is when you use stamina. There are plenty of other characters in this game that have worse neutral reward without using roman cancel which is a much more precious resource than stamina. So you can think of the reward using stamina as a bonus. 2:26 "No other character has to make this trade off, between spending a precious resource or just giving up your turn" I hate to break it to you, but literally every character in the game has to make this trade off. That's the whole point of resources. Play Ky for a bit. 2:40 Comparing Sin's elk hunt to Gio's spiral kick is an unfair comparison. You're comparing them as tools to skip neutral essentially rather than looking at spiral kick as a pressure reset. If the opponent has the reactions to be able to block your neutral, low profile elk hunt, then they also have the reactions to 6p Gio's neutral spiral arrow. The rest of the situation doesn't play out. 4:46 Happy chaos and Nagoriyuki. Yeah both these characters outclass sin in most ways except for not having a meterless reversal. Also I'd like to point out that none of Nagoriyuki's special moves are that amazing on their own anyway. The reason they're good is because they can be cancelled into fukyo and other specials. Try playing nago without special special cancelling and you'll see why your comment at 5:05 makes no sense. 5:18 Lack of solid game plan. Just read the first point I think you could've improved this video by identifying different areas of weakness in Sin's kit such as the weak frame data. You spent a bit too much time focusing on comparing Sin to other characters in ways that didn't make sense.
I just wanna say this just cause this video is so good. Conditioning should not be treated or presumed as a rerliable way to win the game. the reason why is that all players different and the way they handle conditioning is gonna be different. some people just gonna realize their mistake and keep blocking, some will adapt and try something new till its works, or some will just ignore the condition and still swing. and all of these works (for the better or the worst) if they have a character that is way better than conditioning the conditioner then you're put in a worse position cause they know if they can get out they win. They are too many factors and it completely depends on your opponents, their character, and clean you play. you aint gonna be flawless all the time and you may mess. so while conditioning is a great way to play more progressively instead overbearingly or defensively, it not an entire game changer, just a way of telling your opponent "no dont do that, Im playing the game rn" until its their turns to fuck things up For a too long didnt read version: Conditioning is a play style, a form of teaching and is use control some the opponents actions. But its a two way street with alot of factors and shouldnt be rely as a way to win against people all the time.
there is that and there is also the fact that conditioning is literally something every character does all the time. A win condition is a spot where your character is at their absolute strongest. Take Sol for an example, his strongest range is right in your face running offense and his toolkit expresses that. But even when he gets there he still has to condition his opponent to get the most out of it. With Sin his midrange is poor vs most of the cast, his long range is non-existant(which is fine), and his close range is completely fake. Sin has no strongest spot the things that make his offense stronger are things that every character in the cast share, nothing unique to him. Every character is always conditioning and rotating their options in a match to keep their opponent on their toes and they do this for the purpose of getting to their win condition, Sin does it so that he can actually use some of the tools he has acess to without killing himself in the process.
My favorite part of playing Sin was going back to Gio and realizing how much easier the game became by comparison lol. Not that I don't like Sin; he's probably my favorite character in the game design-wise. But his lack of a win condition made him frustrating to play. I never felt like I could get my opponents into a position where I had the upper hand and could run consistent offense on them. I think you summarized his main problems perfectly in this video.
@@Some_No_Mai Not at all; I want a character I enjoy playing to be on par with a character that can do everything they do objectively better so that I feel more justified in picking them over a stronger character of the same archetype. Writing off Sin's core design problems with "skill issue" is reductive.
You kinda forgot to mention within his slow normals he has really bad hurtboxes attached to everything which just makes it even harder to start pressure
I would like to say one thing about Gio's spiral arrow, while it does work very well if you call out a projectile, it's very long start up also makes it unreasonable to use in neutral unless its already conditioned or used as a whiff punish since every character has a 6p fast enough for it to be reactable. That being said, while it's difficult to chain it into a close slash due to the distance you will likely be at post block, many normals that do set up her block pressure such as kick will reach just fine (plus the chip damage with meter is great). Overall great vid though, I'm going to stick around 😁
Good point. Just from match experience I don't think the travao comparison is a good one. Travao feels much more reactable and easy to 6p while elk hunt seems to catch me more often even when I'm looking for it. Maybe it's because I'm sure the 6p will beat Gio and interrupting elk hunt requires a 2k/2s with no invincibility that might get counter hit if I time it wrong. Sin has a bunch of problems but elk hunt seems like one of the better neutral skip moves.
@@Elsimmost of Gio's approaches can be stopped with 6p even if you aren't actively looking for trovao making it a very unreliable neutral skip. Instead she relies way more on her dash which can be stopped mid way, her dash works as mix since you don't know whether she is gonna dash cs or just dash walk back to bait dps or other moves that are very minus on block.
Maybe next time, Sin should wait for the rest of the cast to get in first instead of being an impatient little brat. Then he'll be higher on the tier list.
"a precious resource" this i think is why people fail with sin. Meter is not a precious resource with Sun. When you don’t have tension you have stamina, when you don’t have stamina you have tension, and this makes all his special moves safe.
You should really check out his frame data, there's only 1 followup that makes his special move plus on block and one that is safe on block. Every other follow up is horribly minus on block
Actually pretty accurate, but it's a little more complicated imo. Sin NEEDS tension meter for other shenanigans out side his specials. Like doing brc mix or saving yourself with prc or rrc confirms as well as pressure extensions. So stamina is a little more valuable than you'd think
idk if it’s just because i’m new and shit but i cannot handle the sin matchup for the life of me (potemkin main). his high/low mixup pushes back so far that my faster buttons can’t punish, so it just feels like looping safe pressure to me
You're new so you lack experience. dw every new player will strugle against any character you just gotta keep playing and get better 🤝. Now let's say Sin does helk hunt try to backward megafist you'll get a CH combo and HKD
The only other character with gameplay mechanics as disfunctional as Sin would be Faust, but he at least still has a win condition, that being getting good rng and flooding you with a thousand layers of BS. Sin just has a basic gameplan that he calls a "win condition" because he doesn't have a real one.
As a Faust player, I'd be offended if I could read In all seriousness, that's not Faust's win condition, it certainly can be, but no good Faust will *rely* on items to win. Fausts win condition is to get a knock-up and apply pressure with mix mix mix so that he CAN use items. Go watch a high level Faust player, their mechanics are, bar-none the best in the game. Watching a Faust get that one opening where he can throw 9 different moves into a combo, as a pose to someone like, idk, happy chaos, who can use 2 or 3 moves to get a combo, it's unbelievable
@@the_real_boogeyman Fair enough! He is very mechanically complex, but you can certainly win by RNG sometimes, this is significantly lessened in high level play though, but I'm a filthy casual
You also didn't mention his terrible backdash, its so slow and he's airborne punish during all of it. Its a major defensive tool that he puts himself at higher risk to use then the rest of the roster.
the backdash is criminal and he's always had a big backdash, but in this game it just has too much recovery to be useful. and to be fair everyone is airborne punish on backdash
everything in this video is pretty spot on and you didn't even really touch on the half of it tbh. You could make the same comparisons that you did with Gio's Trovao and Sin's elk hunt with Baiken H-kabari and Sin's Beak driver. You also could have touched on how so many of his moves are just oddly slow. Like why is my hoof stomp slower than an uncharged dust with about the same meterless reward? Why can't Sin have a gapless overhead when almost every other character who runs offense similar to him can? Why is his f.S the slowest in the game and has no good gatling or special confirms? Why does he have to spend 2/3'rds of his stamina to get Oki midscreen? Why does his 2k>2d not connect at all ranges when he was introduced the patch directly after they made a point to make all 2k>2ds connect at all ranges? Why are his hitboxes so bad (and sometimes not even correctly placed)? He has SO MUCH that he has to work for that other characters get by default and all they need to do is just like actually finish him and he will be great.
Something to note is that pretty much every dlc character gets released, a patch comes out, the new character doesn't get changed because they're too new, and then they have to wait till next patch to get changed enough to meet the power level of the newest patch. Each DLC character is usually a patch behind when they first come out (or a patch ahead for chaos). It happened with goldlewis, bridget, (idk the consensus on baiken on release), and it's currently happening with sin. ArcSys balancing is unpredictable, so can't say he will get buffed, but the statistics say he will be, and he definitely needs it.
The thing with Trovao is that it's 6p'able (that's a word now). As long as you're not caught doing something always be ready with a 6p and you'll be fine it's reactable. I think they didn't want Elkhunt to become Sol's slide move (I forgot what it was called) in Xrd where it was +2 I believe and a low profile that you can't poke. So usually when he throws it you just take it and block which wasn't fun to deal with. Edit: question Mr UA-camr, do you consider unreactable mix a positive? I don't think that's a good thing even Ino the Mix queen has reactable mix, Millia's is a blender too off of Oki but it's also blockable. I think Sin's kit is just too linear which can be said about Gio as well but Gio has way more options off of her block strings that you sometimes have to just take it while Sin has two options at every moment which is the same as fan Boy
Sin's mix *IS* reactable. And just having an overhead/low option is always a positive, but you cant compare it to characters like Millia and Ino because their mixups have layers on layers(especially millia because you're essentially guessing with her mix).
@@youssefehab8748 I agree, I did not compare their mix to Sin. I just said that most characters' mix Is still reactable it just needs more processing power to defeat than sin's because it's too linear
Somebody said they think Sin was absolutely busted in prerelease testing and they panic “fixed” him at the last minute, and even though that doesn’t track for how ArcSys does things, it still feels like the case
that "problem" was imaginary, coins were a combo tool so building mist finer levels was no issue, also he had a way to recollect some coins via his super.
I don't feel like sin is the worse, I just feel like he isn't good at what he's meant to be, a rushdown mixup character. He has a long winded low, a bunch of rushes but he's more like a poke character with his ranged moves. He sure as hell does a lotta damage. I feel like the only issue with sin is his match ups are TOO even. He's very good against big brawly Bois tho (hi I'm a sin main btw)
he's not a good poke character because none of his pokes are disjointed or safe in a game full of disjointed and safe pokes. Also as I said, all of his special moves are minus on hit without the followup, and that includes Beak Driver. Something I should have included is that Beak Driver also has an extended hurtbox during recovery making it not only incredibly slow to recover on whiff but also basically a free whiff punish for characters with long range f.S combo starters (think Nago, Ram, Sol 6S)
But he isn't meant to be a rushdown mixup character, he's meant to be a footsies poking character that has insane rushdown tools such as his followups and corner carry potential Problem is his pokes fucking sucks and his rushdown tools are so minus
@@MandyMixups even funnier yet, beak driver is -5 ON HIT iirc (definitely minus, i just dont remember by how much). it's so bad it's kinda funny i love him tho
you should mention he's not only unsafe on block but ALSO ON HIT, a lot of characters can even punish Sin with a reversal ON HIT, so you can just mash reversal whenever you're hit
Regardless of his current state in the game, I'll continue to rock my boy. On an unrelated note, damn this "copium" stuff is really good. Edit: I've played sin for about 200 hrs, so I'll give my two cents on the topic. (Though I'm not celestial either so I suppose whether or not my opinion is valid is up to interpretation) Pros: Sin becomes miles better when you can have both of your meters charging, and I find when I'm able to get the wall break (Especially with a super), I can usually snowball my opponent with the options that gives me and overwhelm them. (That's his win condition in my experience) Literally any stray hit gives him oki, (Since all of his follow ups knockdown) that you don't need to spend a dash on because 2S has a very long hit box that is usually reversal safe, if spaced correctly. His corner carry is insane. Not only are his combos good for setting up Oki, but they usually toss the opponent half the screen away, often with their back to the wall, or through the wall with the cancel into super. Man hits hard. Often even I'm surprised at how much health he cleaves off of even Pot and low blood Nago. Especially with meter. Elk Hunt > follow up > gazelle step is easily my pick for his best move sequence, the guard crush forces a mix up every single time it's blocked. Your opponent has to guess between grab, or button. If you get your timing down pat, the only way to beat grab is to backdash or a super reversal, which is dangerous since his close slash gets a massive punish on backdash, and reversal supers are inherently risky. And if you have tension, you can even go for an overhead and convert that with RRC. The disjointed j.Attacks are very handy when someone won't stay on the ground. Cons: His blockstrings SUCK. C.S > 2/6/5H> Beak Driver> Follow up is IT. EVERYTHING else has gaps. Some of them big enough that they can be 6P'd. (Ex. 2S > Beak Driver can be 6P'd. Try it in lab). Even his gapless blockstrings can have gaps if you mess up the timing even slightly, meaning you have to be very aware of the timing. Still growing is the most worthless move in this game. It has has 2 useful modes of 4 (Health and Tension), and even then, how good they are is also random ON TOP of being a 50/50 roll. The only time I ever do it is if I literally have no tension or stamina, and get a knockdown to try at the 50/50. His competitive advantage is brutal. Why play him when you could play almost anyone else. Gio rushes down better. Pot has a better Guard Crush Oki. GL hits harder. Happy Chaos exists. His one thing that he does unique is the kara into his supers, but that requires at least 50 meter, and 1/3rd stamina, often 2/3rds. His pressure being tied to meters means he has a very obvious tell on when the opponent should and should not counter attack, and gives him a built in pause button that forces him to go on the defence. The necessity to condition your opponent means that if your opponent is good at calling out your options you kinda just... can't do anything. J.D sucks. I have a single specific wall combo it's useful for. It's minus on hit which is buckwild to me. TL;DR He does have some good qualities, but the good qualities require working around his flaws and forces you to put up with BS that other characters simply don't need to worry about that. And your reward for doing it is the same reward that other characters get easier, or sometimes even better reward for less. Regardless of that, I'm sticking with him. He's fun, and that's what I care about.
I agree with your assesment on the "win-con". Roman cancels on positive bonus make for really stylish and tricky pressure. Ill add to the list of negatives with the really bad hit/hurtboxes and frame data on his key neutral options (f.s, 2.s, Driver, Backdash). If his keepaway game was more threatening/rewarding, he would have much less of a natural "end" to his pressure, and could end more combos early with a buffed Still Growing and keep range with tough to challenge flag normals. As opposed to now where you pretty much have to spend stamina every chance you can to try and force an advantage state. Entering the TNS tournament tonight, lets see how many players dont know the MU.
Another disadvantage I see (though I consider myself inexperienced?) is round start and area shifts. Because of Sin's slower buttons, the only "good" options I see myself doing for the most part are moving backwards or hawk baker. It kinda is a bad tradeoff even if Sin get positive bonus imo.
I setup bedman counter attack in training mode to 2p after blocking, After 236K is blocked I can't get cS to come out only far S comes out and far S gets beat by bedman 2p. 5k beats the 2p though.
Thank you so much for this video! I wanted to buy a dlc character for so long but i have no idea who to go for Lewis look cool but i guess he is a slow and Heavy hitter which i don't really like(like potemkin or Nago(?) ) Happy Chaos look cool and all but also like a handful to play and i really hope to preserve my Joystick for a while ahaha Jack'O and yoyo dude look fun i guess? Testament, Sin and Bedman are the one who attracts me the most gameplay wise but i heard that "That Man" is coming to the game in May and maybe i should wait for him? Any suggestions?
if you're unsure about the DLC then its best to hold off untill Asuka(that man) gets released or you could drop the money and get the season pass(es) and try everyone yourself, but thats an investment i dont recommend.
I noticed swapping between Sin and Baiken just how weak Sin is by comparison in that the poor guys simply doesnt have a win condition at all, Baiken wants to keep you on a leash and force 50/50s with the instant overhead and her down heavy slash but Sin doesnt have anything close to being scary in terms of pressure tools. I have a friend who is new to the game and even he can react to Sins "mixups" without much effort because they are so slow and easy to react to. Having to condition an opponent isnt a great outlook given the fact it means nothing in the face of an enemy who doesnt have to do the same but simply do what their character is good at, get in close with Potem and nuke the enemy with a couple busters, get in with Gio and just strike throw till they die, get in with Sol and just do Sol things, Sin just exists in a sad bubble where he doesnt do anything well and cant maintain any pressure hes like a pressure cooker with no valve, all the pieces are there but he cant keep anything in to finish the deal. The fact he has to resource manage plus frames is also ridiculous and only works on people who dont know the data or are just new the same thing really. I like Sin and think he looks cool but hes just not effective enough to play and it becomes both tedious and annoying to get so close yet be so far because oop I actually got pressure time to get started and womp womp all my stamina is gone so I'm now minus on everything. I think a retooling of his stamina bar or perhaps just a change to his frame data to where he isnt super negative but just safe would be a good call, maybe make his mix ups a little less reactable as well so they can be actually useful in a fight.
Basically, terrible frame data and pokes that has bigger hurtboxes than hitboxes. Way too reliant on stamina to get anything done, and the eating move is actually detrimental to use
Honestly I feel like sin suffers the same fate KY had at strive launch saw how they were in xrd and changed and put them in strive to compensate for xrd rather than looking at how strive was going to play. KY I can forgive cause launch character ( kinda forgive) sin is lol
I am actually quite confused by this video as a whole but mostly on 2 points And I am a scrub so whatever but The examples you showed and the words you were saying aren't making sense to me 1st you looked me dead in my face and told me sin is +/-8 on block depending on if u follow up that uses a resource... No mention on how fast it recovers.. in the example the 2 bars spent to get the hit 1 and a half was recovered by the end of the combo... so I don't understand why you wouldn't use it rather liberally for +8.... mind you is twice the amount of +4 (lol I know that doesn't matter shh) 2nd: kys game can revolve around his super...but sins supers aren't a part of his game plan? I am very ready to be wrong here. But I'm thinking there might be some kind of fundamental peice to sin people are missing..... Idk what it is but I'd be lying if I said this character has 0 to offer anybody
I'm sorry but I'm a dog shit player who only started playing the game again because of Sin. Having not played the game for a year prior to his release I wasn't expecting to hit celestial while being on floor 8 prior. If Sins meter was removed I feel like he would be a fucking monster. For players like me that love forcing your opponent to defend for their life(former chipp main) the split second you touch them, understanding what a player does under pressure is what I try and figure out asap. That being said if Sin didn't have the meter it would just be constant pressure and exploiting personal weaknesses with little to no drawback. While that would be fun af I don't want the chipp reputation again, for I have atoned for my sins.
Sin's major issue is his frame data not really the meter he has to manage. Imo better frame data would solve a lot of sins issues. and it wouldnt be constant pressure it would be constant 1 layer rps
I mean, kinda? It's Guilty Gear, the entire game's about putting your opponent in unfair blender situations. Sin can't do that. A fair character in a game full of such conniving menaces is a recipe for a character that just isn't up to par.
Sin is definitely under tuned but I find a lot of the points in this video be disingenuously made likely on the account of a misinterpretation of the character. The video implies Sin's pressure revolves around, and his win condition is unlocked through, the RPS triggered by his follow-ups. In my opinion, this is just completely wrong. Sin runs a pretty linear and good pressure game revolved around the threat of Hoof Stomp to warrant defensive responses from your opponent. Removing the possibility of 50 meter, overheads in Strive are generally categorized into two types: Type 1 would be a super fast (20-21F startup), low return (soft-down or stagger on hit), and punishable on block (-8F) overhead. Think of Chipp's Rekka 3 and Anji's Rin. Type 2 would be a super slow (28F startup) overhead that lacks key frames (Like the glow from dust), has solid return (2K2D), and is safe on block (+2). Think of Millia and Zato's 6K. Hoof Stomp falls in the Type 1 category but the Stamina mechanic skews the risk return in his favor. Follow up leaves you -8, just like the other overheads, however unlike others, the pushback is far enough to make it "safe" (As in you're negative but nothing fast enough can reach you in time to punish). When you start RPSing with the follow up you get chances to blow up your opponent for mashing, chances to use Hoof Stomp raw, and you can attack their IB timing if you so choose. The reward on Hoof follow up (granted you have the appropriate amount of stamina) is huge, and you are very close to winning if it hits and you have the appropriate stamina to convert with. Hoof Stomp applies way more mental stack because it's better with meter (Stomp > Super is cheap), and lacks a "pre-requisite" to perform. Chipp cannot perform Rekka 3 without committing to Rekka 1, and Anji cannot perform Rin without going into Fujin. These "pre-requisites" isolate the rest of the character's kit and simplifies the situation. You are not just randomly getting hit, you have time to brace yourself. Hoof Stomp, however, can be used from any special cancellable normal at any time. This is incredibly useful considering there's moves in Sin's kit like Elk Hunt which are incredibly dangerous to even block. You also have to look out for other options, like throw. You also have ways to attack fuzzy timing with 6K, as its a low that also has 21F startup. Sin's win condition is to get you in this position, which can theoretically happen just off catching you blocking. Type 1 overheads are 21 Frames, so yeah, they're reactable by definition. Lets be real though, there's no way you consistently block them 100% of the time. This is more so the case for Sin than any of the other characters in the game with such a overhead. Calling his pressure bad or reactable is completely disingenuous. In my opinion, the main problem with Sin is his buttons. They're slow, they have high recovery, some of them are stubby, some have pushback issues, and some of their hurtboxes are really shit. Its really hard to place buttons and by extension its hard box someone out. You cant have that in Strive, which is full of these mid-range "neutral," but not really because someone is slightly minus, situations. Sin by legacy is supposed to be the character okay with returning to neutral. You can tell by how Stamina is designed they wanted that for him in Strive but they just fell short in designing his buttons. I mean, Sin probably puts himself in those situations the most because of how all his follow ups are slightly minus. I do think they should increase the Stamina bar, maybe by like 1 or 2, to help leviate the situations where its like "Okay this situation I worked for is super good but I need 2 stamina bars to make the best of it."
I guess you haven’t played Faust before. Faust has no safe options yet everyone complains about sin. Yeah it sucks sin can make everything safe and then gets meter after that. Super unfair.
Except Ky doesn't have a win condition either. RTL into wallbreak is generally not something you want to be wasting meter on unless it kills, and if anything making sure you always hav 50 meter on Ky for the huge threat of Stun Dipper RC is probably closest to having a win condition. And not having a win condition is not a problem either, having a more open-ended flow to your game is fine. I'm sure Sin needs some assists but not every character needs a specific win condition they need to be pidgeon-holed into.
As someone who mained Axl in Xrd then in Strive this honestly feels like the players don't understand the nuances of Sins changes. It took a long while for Axls to do something else besides jS spam and atm Sins need to do something else then run up DP like it's a valid strat or actually take the minute to decipher why that's optimal for him. These things take time and Sin has some good potential but I feel there's a fundamental misuse of stamina moves with most Sin players. Just because you have full stamina doesn't necessarily mean you have to dump it all every combo just to get a wallbreak then realize post wallbreak break you can't keep pressure from spending it all. Kys Ride the Lightning might honestly be a bad super. It was cool seeing it wallbreak from so far but as it turns out that's not that special and lots of characters have insane wall to wall carry.. You can actually find multiple examples of Kys losing a match after RTL leaving them at the magic pixel instead of Dragon Installing in order to keep post wallbreak pressure up. Gameplans aren't that cut and dry. Axl is meant to zone but half of his best moves pull the opponent at him or requires being up close to hit them with it. There's a lot of nuance left out of Sins interpretation. I think he has amazing normals and some of the best hit confirms in the game. He wants mid range to force the opponent to try and come at him but can also go in to keep + frames and do chip. As well as a potential mix-up off the overhead. It's not the most scary up close pressure but his keep out game is amazing. I'd play him like a Ky or a Testament then a Gio. The problem is GG Strive has so many rushdown characters people legit forgot what normal neutral looks like. So they end up forcing their character to play in a style that's not their core strength. Close Slash is every characters best starter but that doesn't mean everyone wants to be in Close Slash range. Some food for thought. Came from Reddit btw 👍
I think people force each combo so much on sin because of his relatively weak neutral. Yeah you can end a combo early and save some stamina but what next? Eating is generally a bad idea, and a whole slew of the cast can pretty comfortably outplay sins main pokes. Sin players would much rather take a wallbreak than risk playing neutral again.
at no point did we even talk about run-up DP? and no, dude, it's not a "misuse of stamina moves" that's the issue here. Sin's frame data is objectively bad, Sin's neutral is objectively bad. He doesn't want to be midrange because none of his normals have good disjointed hitboxes, and in fact Beak Driver has an EXTENDED hurtbox during recovery that makes it incredibly easy to whiff punish, while also being his only good poke in neutral. I promise you, the issue is not Sin players "playing him wrong" or Strive "forcing you to play rushdown" the issue is that Sin is a holistically bad character. Try playing him like a mid-range zoner like he is in Xrd and watch as you get obliterated by Nago 5H because Sin is not a mid-range zoner like he is in Xrd.
elk hunt was probably the worst of sin's specials to use an example of his lacking power relative to the rest of the roster a -8 low profile approach option in this game is actually not bad and that's completely ignoring the possibility of follow up you want to talk about a bad low profile approach option? try using one that's -17 on block, cannot be followed up or special cancelled at all and has a full standing hurtbox while active that can lose to fucking *anti airs* elk hunt is borderline privileged you want to talk about a bad special move on sin? you talk about hawk baker or beaker driver, not fucking elk hunt
Sin would be so much better if the stamina meter was omitted entirely. I think they only added it because he has meter management in Xrd. Kinda should have let it die imo :/
true, they changed his gameplan too much to even need a limiter. XRD Sin needed on because All of his buttons were disgustingly large *and plus when cancelling*. This Sin already lost the eating mechanic, big normals, and special cancels. So in Strive he really doesn't need his own meter.
But his stamina meter is what made him stand out among the cast, why remove that made Sin, Sin? I would rather just simply balance it or slightly rework how it works to make him more consistent and function well than remove it.
2:25 "no other has to make this trade-off, between having to spend a very precious resource or just loosing your turn." Yes there is... that's Anji. If Fuujin and it's follow ups are blocked, you loose your turn immediatly. The good extender out of Fuujin is Shin: Ichishiki (the one where he throes two fans in the ground) that is +7 on block. BUT GUESS WHAT, not only it is reactable, is safe to jump out of the move, to DP off the move and some characters can 6P counter hit depending on the timming. In summary if Anji does not have metter to RRC/PRC mid pressure, he loses every time, to basically any character. and this is post buffs. So yeah Sin is in a worst spot because Anji has other good tools at his disposal to get some big reward to captalise on, but I'd say that SIn, Anji and Pot are the worst characters in the roster and need buffs.
in a real match, people wont raw react to fan toss. If the anji player is ALWAYS doing either the high/low followup and getting punished on block, it is the anji's fault for not introducing a 3rd option. The way you spoke about anji is as if you've tested all these options in a vacuum. When, in reality, you do not play in a vacuum. the opponent must be aware of all of anji's options, however limited you make them seem. If you tested these yourself in training mode by setting the dummy to do something after blocking, then your conclusions(dp excluded) are incorrect because no one is going to 6P on reaction, not because it just will NOT work, but also because it would potentially beat 1 option of anji's and get smoked by the rest. Dp is fair because its a very common buffer on defense. Describing anji as needing of RRC/PRC to aid pressure means that you have a flawed understanding of Anji's pressure. Anji excels at either blitzing the opponent with quick and almost random options, or playing slower and conditioning the opponent(both equally as effective). Also, Anji is NOT bottom 3, he is a mid tier(low mid tier at worst). Comparing him to Pot and Sin is crazy downplay imo and Anji is in a much better spot than both of them. Anji does not need buffs. This is all my opinion tho, feel free to discuss :)
1:15 You say "kara cancel into super" a lot here, but none of the examples you show is a kara cancel. I don't know if Sin actually does have kara cancels into super or if you just think canceling a special move into a super is a kara cancel, but that's not what the term means.
This actually IS a kara-cancel. Sin's supers dont naturally combo from his specials, so to achieve that effect he cancels the startup frames of gazelle step into a super. Hence a Kara-Cancel
Strive specials dont normally super cancel unlike street fighter, outside of the very first 3 frames, which normally comes up through follow up specials like how chipp can do rekka 1 rekka 2 super, Sin uses gazelle step for this
not that Sin is good i'm not arguing on that; but i feel like people think "I'm spending resources it should be good!" is getting the things wrong. because a interaction with Sin with resources is something and a interaction with Sin without is something else. and THAT is the intent behind him having a resource. and you can't just average "resource Sin" and "resourceless Sin" and compare it other other characters. you are technically flowing between two characters Sin is just playing a different game and maybe that different game is not good enough compared to other characters and need a buff, and that's valid. but direct comparisons just won't work. also it will never get old how English speakers can't say "Trovão" like i really don't care either way is just funny. for curiosity sake it is spelled "troVAM-UM" without a interval
>I'd be shocked if Sin went untouched.. They touched him alright - nerfed him. At this point you'd be naive to expect ArcSys balancing to be anything other than completely braindead.
Well, he wasn't Untouched. They nerfed him. LMFAO.
I died on the inside a little when I saw
Not a nerf, a bug fix, and its meaningless regardless.
Didn’t they also slightly buff chaos?
I was thinking of picking sin as a secondary, but for some reason they nerfed beak driver
@@youssefehab8748 theoretically it is a nerf tho.
Another weird thing about sin’s kit you didn’t mention is his Still growing special, where he gets a random buff with a random timer and a random amount of effectiveness. This move is so ungodly useless it’s hilarious. If they reworked it so the buffs are a set amount on a set timer, then I could see it being actually usable, and if they gave him a food that refills his stamina meter then I could see it being useful to his game plan.
I know the move is gonna be god awful when I first saw it in the dev reveal, but the move is actually somehow even worse than I initially anticipated it to be, using it literally gimps yourself by sacrificing oki for basically nothing or getting counter hit for free
I had no clue it was that useless, jesus christ.
lmao I agree I even forget to use it most of the time
Yeah there's literally never a point in using it because you're playing a goofy RNG game that isn't felt rewarding compared to, say, Faust projectiles.
I never sacrifice my oki for it lol. It's terrible.
Giving stamina was what it used to do. Sacrifice some stronger oki to get meter back. That's what I thought it WOULD be, since it's such an integral part of his gameplay in Xrd.
The patch notes are hilarious. Sin - hawk beaker follow up startup can no longer RC.
RIGHT ABOVE THAT
Buff for happy chaos, arguably the strongest character in the game
Daisuke is a mentally challenged goblin, can't prove otherwise.
HC got more of a fix though
and then he got nerfed 💀
Istg y'all mfs reading level is kindergarden. it was a bug fix and its a meaningless change regardless
RIP our boy
"nerfed" as in they fixed a bug so he now acts like the rest of the cast
@@cooperlittlehales6268 he can still do the thing they were trying to avoid too, idk what they even fixed
Love the vid but there is something wrong I noticed at: 4:15 Nago super comes out in 9 frames(7 + 2 after the flash). There is no invincible move or super that comes out in 8 frames or less than can punish sin's elk hunt on block and completely avoid the mix-up of delayed follow up or no follow up. Elk hunt still isn't as good as other neutral skip moves in the game as motioned, and the risk reward isn't really as good for sin, but wanted to point out this inaccuracy.
Also there is no balance changes with the bedman update sooooo 6 MORE MONTHS OF LOW TIER CITY.
Honestly sin could just not have stamina costs at all and he'd still be low mid tier
I mean honestly his special move followups are really good, it's just that the first hit of his specials are so universally shit that you essentially HAVE to spend stamina. I think if they got rid of his stamina meter and made all of his followups free he'd become a menace, but not with an unprecedented level of chicanery
@@MandyMixups for me what they should do is just make all his specials decent and make the follow ups absurdly good
So basically u have good specials, that become absolutely game breaking if u spend the stamina
Also for me u can still make sin work he is a character that can even win many matches in a row, them some people won tournaments with him, is just that compared to the rest of the cast he is so underpowered he can't compete in kit
Also his normals need to get fixed a little too
@@firework0097 sounds like the same kind of problem anji has. Not Baaad attacks and his unique mechanic Can be useful in situations.. but compared to the tools other characters have he still seems to be at a disadvantage
lol you must be new we don't get balance patches with character patches
We did with sin didn’t we?
@@samsclubhouse nope that was just the balance patch he was just released close to it
@@samsclubhouse There was a balance patch AFTER Sin's release and the timing was unrelated.
@@youssefehab8748
>DLC character drops
>Characters are adjusted and have the potential to be worse than they were
I'm sure that's completely unrelated
Sadly, I don't think Sin will be receiving any changes with the Bedman? update.
Arcsys' season 2 roadmap showed only one balance patch. And that one was in December...
So, hopefully he'll get some good stuff for season 3 ^^
Cool video btw!
ArcSys seems to hate sin for some reason my boy did not deserve the hawk baker nerf
@@NashiEXC they're him OP AF in xrd,I maimed him so I was hated but they wanted us sin mains to cry and sin haters to rejoice
actually, they nerfed him with the bedman update LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOO
We gotta wait until s3 for balance updates that should of already happened? bruh…. Sin feels like a beta character like wtf… they better give us air beak driver and charge beak driver along with a bunch of buffs cuz that’s crazy
Sin players 🤝 Faust players
They were really good in Xrd, and ArcSys got so assmad over that, they had to make sure that these 2 get punished for it.
I always wanted his follow ups to be separate moves so he can have special to special canceling, how I understand nago works as well, this would immediately give his stamina a better use than restricting him, also using the run like a heat engager from Tekken 8 would have been crazy
That's how Sin worked in xrd, and he was awesome.
Sin feels like a character that should have been a part of season 1 DLC, what I mean is that a lot of his problems he has seems very familiar to season 1 patch problems. Unsatisfying pokes, moves with way too much recovery frames, moves out of counter hit state not landing when in counter hit state etc. As Sajam said he feels like he's a patch behind. And the fact that he was paid DLC it's just a spin the face to everybody who is excited for the character.
Like ill be fighting my friends right and they will be like (Ayo why you do keep doing the same five moves) and ill reply with (literally that's all I can do). Such a waste of a good character I hope they fix his problems and soon.
I think that's a good way of putting it. But I think even in Season 1 he would've still been one of the worst characters, just probably not THE worst. His issues echo a lot of issues with season 1 Anji, which I alluded to in the video itself.
@@W.R.Kaiser Small chance he gets a QOL pass in the Bedman? patch, but its probably just hopium. ArcSys probaly has taken notice of the zero results + spooky bad rating update stats though, and considering the mostly good game balance rn im optimistic they have good changes in store. #MakeEatGreatAgain
Constructive feedback.
0:40 Correctly identified Sin's gameplan. Use stagger pressure and followups to condition opponent and run strike throw.
0:51 Sin's mixups are reactable.
You just established that Sin is a strike throw character that uses conditioning. Saying his "mixups" are reactable makes no sense given your original statement. Sin is not a mixup character.
1:53 Without using stamina, Sin's neutral isn't very good
Incorrect, without using stamina, Sin's neutral isn't as good as it is when you use stamina. There are plenty of other characters in this game that have worse neutral reward without using roman cancel which is a much more precious resource than stamina. So you can think of the reward using stamina as a bonus.
2:26 "No other character has to make this trade off, between spending a precious resource or just giving up your turn"
I hate to break it to you, but literally every character in the game has to make this trade off. That's the whole point of resources. Play Ky for a bit.
2:40 Comparing Sin's elk hunt to Gio's spiral kick is an unfair comparison. You're comparing them as tools to skip neutral essentially rather than looking at spiral kick as a pressure reset.
If the opponent has the reactions to be able to block your neutral, low profile elk hunt, then they also have the reactions to 6p Gio's neutral spiral arrow. The rest of the situation doesn't play out.
4:46 Happy chaos and Nagoriyuki. Yeah both these characters outclass sin in most ways except for not having a meterless reversal.
Also I'd like to point out that none of Nagoriyuki's special moves are that amazing on their own anyway. The reason they're good is because they can be cancelled into fukyo and other specials. Try playing nago without special special cancelling and you'll see why your comment at 5:05 makes no sense.
5:18 Lack of solid game plan.
Just read the first point
I think you could've improved this video by identifying different areas of weakness in Sin's kit such as the weak frame data.
You spent a bit too much time focusing on comparing Sin to other characters in ways that didn't make sense.
I just wanna say this just cause this video is so good. Conditioning should not be treated or presumed as a rerliable way to win the game. the reason why is that all players different and the way they handle conditioning is gonna be different. some people just gonna realize their mistake and keep blocking, some will adapt and try something new till its works, or some will just ignore the condition and still swing. and all of these works (for the better or the worst) if they have a character that is way better than conditioning the conditioner then you're put in a worse position cause they know if they can get out they win. They are too many factors and it completely depends on your opponents, their character, and clean you play. you aint gonna be flawless all the time and you may mess. so while conditioning is a great way to play more progressively instead overbearingly or defensively, it not an entire game changer, just a way of telling your opponent "no dont do that, Im playing the game rn" until its their turns to fuck things up
For a too long didnt read version: Conditioning is a play style, a form of teaching and is use control some the opponents actions. But its a two way street with alot of factors and shouldnt be rely as a way to win against people all the time.
there is that and there is also the fact that conditioning is literally something every character does all the time. A win condition is a spot where your character is at their absolute strongest. Take Sol for an example, his strongest range is right in your face running offense and his toolkit expresses that. But even when he gets there he still has to condition his opponent to get the most out of it. With Sin his midrange is poor vs most of the cast, his long range is non-existant(which is fine), and his close range is completely fake. Sin has no strongest spot the things that make his offense stronger are things that every character in the cast share, nothing unique to him. Every character is always conditioning and rotating their options in a match to keep their opponent on their toes and they do this for the purpose of getting to their win condition, Sin does it so that he can actually use some of the tools he has acess to without killing himself in the process.
My favorite part of playing Sin was going back to Gio and realizing how much easier the game became by comparison lol.
Not that I don't like Sin; he's probably my favorite character in the game design-wise. But his lack of a win condition made him frustrating to play. I never felt like I could get my opponents into a position where I had the upper hand and could run consistent offense on them. I think you summarized his main problems perfectly in this video.
Gio makes everything easier but I do agree with you
So you want your hand held to win? With the state of fighters that sounds accurate lol
@@Some_No_Mai Not at all; I want a character I enjoy playing to be on par with a character that can do everything they do objectively better so that I feel more justified in picking them over a stronger character of the same archetype. Writing off Sin's core design problems with "skill issue" is reductive.
Sin win condition outplay your opponent.
You kinda forgot to mention within his slow normals he has really bad hurtboxes attached to everything which just makes it even harder to start pressure
I would like to say one thing about Gio's spiral arrow, while it does work very well if you call out a projectile, it's very long start up also makes it unreasonable to use in neutral unless its already conditioned or used as a whiff punish since every character has a 6p fast enough for it to be reactable. That being said, while it's difficult to chain it into a close slash due to the distance you will likely be at post block, many normals that do set up her block pressure such as kick will reach just fine (plus the chip damage with meter is great).
Overall great vid though, I'm going to stick around 😁
Good point. Just from match experience I don't think the travao comparison is a good one. Travao feels much more reactable and easy to 6p while elk hunt seems to catch me more often even when I'm looking for it. Maybe it's because I'm sure the 6p will beat Gio and interrupting elk hunt requires a 2k/2s with no invincibility that might get counter hit if I time it wrong.
Sin has a bunch of problems but elk hunt seems like one of the better neutral skip moves.
@@Elsimmost of Gio's approaches can be stopped with 6p even if you aren't actively looking for trovao making it a very unreliable neutral skip. Instead she relies way more on her dash which can be stopped mid way, her dash works as mix since you don't know whether she is gonna dash cs or just dash walk back to bait dps or other moves that are very minus on block.
@@heracrossz7701 I agree, I try to keep 6p ready at all times in the gio matchup but not overuse it too much as good gios will bait and whiff punish.
Sin’s eat is barely more than a command taunt. Shit, even Chipp’s invisible taunt would be more effective mid fight than eat.
Maybe next time, Sin should wait for the rest of the cast to get in first instead of being an impatient little brat. Then he'll be higher on the tier list.
"a precious resource" this i think is why people fail with sin. Meter is not a precious resource with Sun. When you don’t have tension you have stamina, when you don’t have stamina you have tension, and this makes all his special moves safe.
You should really check out his frame data, there's only 1 followup that makes his special move plus on block and one that is safe on block. Every other follow up is horribly minus on block
@@z1u512 ones a dp so it HAS to be minus, and the overhead followup *is* -7 but it has so much pushback that this number is negligible
Actually pretty accurate, but it's a little more complicated imo. Sin NEEDS tension meter for other shenanigans out side his specials. Like doing brc mix or saving yourself with prc or rrc confirms as well as pressure extensions. So stamina is a little more valuable than you'd think
Seeing the thumbnail of your next video after watching this video is hilarious.
idk if it’s just because i’m new and shit but i cannot handle the sin matchup for the life of me (potemkin main). his high/low mixup pushes back so far that my faster buttons can’t punish, so it just feels like looping safe pressure to me
You're new so you lack experience. dw every new player will strugle against any character you just gotta keep playing and get better 🤝.
Now let's say Sin does helk hunt try to backward megafist you'll get a CH combo and HKD
The only other character with gameplay mechanics as disfunctional as Sin would be Faust, but he at least still has a win condition, that being getting good rng and flooding you with a thousand layers of BS. Sin just has a basic gameplan that he calls a "win condition" because he doesn't have a real one.
As a Faust player, I'd be offended if I could read
In all seriousness, that's not Faust's win condition, it certainly can be, but no good Faust will *rely* on items to win. Fausts win condition is to get a knock-up and apply pressure with mix mix mix so that he CAN use items. Go watch a high level Faust player, their mechanics are, bar-none the best in the game. Watching a Faust get that one opening where he can throw 9 different moves into a combo, as a pose to someone like, idk, happy chaos, who can use 2 or 3 moves to get a combo, it's unbelievable
@@justv7536 yeah, I do watch high level Faust gameplay a lot, but I don't actually own the game so I can only judge things based on what I see
@@justv7536 I would play Faust if I could
@@the_real_boogeyman Fair enough! He is very mechanically complex, but you can certainly win by RNG sometimes, this is significantly lessened in high level play though, but I'm a filthy casual
@@justv7536 lol
Enjoyed this video a lot, looking forward to seeing where your channel goes from here!
You also didn't mention his terrible backdash, its so slow and he's airborne punish during all of it. Its a major defensive tool that he puts himself at higher risk to use then the rest of the roster.
the backdash is criminal and he's always had a big backdash, but in this game it just has too much recovery to be useful. and to be fair everyone is airborne punish on backdash
@@youssefehab8748 he has a long backdash in xrd too, but he also gets much much more invincibility because of it. Not the case ini strive :(
HOW TF DO U ONLY HAVE 50SUBS, this is a crime my man, take my sub, imma stick around
Would make eating food, always give stamina back, and a random bonus make the character a bit better? Instead of only random bonuses.
Sin was virtuall untouched were probably gonna have to wait for a dedicated balance patch
everything in this video is pretty spot on and you didn't even really touch on the half of it tbh. You could make the same comparisons that you did with Gio's Trovao and Sin's elk hunt with Baiken H-kabari and Sin's Beak driver. You also could have touched on how so many of his moves are just oddly slow. Like why is my hoof stomp slower than an uncharged dust with about the same meterless reward? Why can't Sin have a gapless overhead when almost every other character who runs offense similar to him can? Why is his f.S the slowest in the game and has no good gatling or special confirms? Why does he have to spend 2/3'rds of his stamina to get Oki midscreen? Why does his 2k>2d not connect at all ranges when he was introduced the patch directly after they made a point to make all 2k>2ds connect at all ranges? Why are his hitboxes so bad (and sometimes not even correctly placed)? He has SO MUCH that he has to work for that other characters get by default and all they need to do is just like actually finish him and he will be great.
Something to note is that pretty much every dlc character gets released, a patch comes out, the new character doesn't get changed because they're too new, and then they have to wait till next patch to get changed enough to meet the power level of the newest patch. Each DLC character is usually a patch behind when they first come out (or a patch ahead for chaos). It happened with goldlewis, bridget, (idk the consensus on baiken on release), and it's currently happening with sin. ArcSys balancing is unpredictable, so can't say he will get buffed, but the statistics say he will be, and he definitely needs it.
Aight I like this a lot and you've earned my sub. Please do more GG kit analysis
Trovao being neutral skipping? That loses to 6p.
Still Growing should go back to restocking his unique resource.
"Look at me, i am the Anji now!"
The thing with Trovao is that it's 6p'able (that's a word now). As long as you're not caught doing something always be ready with a 6p and you'll be fine it's reactable. I think they didn't want Elkhunt to become Sol's slide move (I forgot what it was called) in Xrd where it was +2 I believe and a low profile that you can't poke. So usually when he throws it you just take it and block which wasn't fun to deal with.
Edit: question Mr UA-camr, do you consider unreactable mix a positive? I don't think that's a good thing even Ino the Mix queen has reactable mix, Millia's is a blender too off of Oki but it's also blockable. I think Sin's kit is just too linear which can be said about Gio as well but Gio has way more options off of her block strings that you sometimes have to just take it while Sin has two options at every moment which is the same as fan Boy
Sin's mix *IS* reactable. And just having an overhead/low option is always a positive, but you cant compare it to characters like Millia and Ino because their mixups have layers on layers(especially millia because you're essentially guessing with her mix).
@@youssefehab8748 I agree, I did not compare their mix to Sin. I just said that most characters' mix Is still reactable it just needs more processing power to defeat than sin's because it's too linear
wow what immaculate Sin gameplay!
im getting cooked
Somebody said they think Sin was absolutely busted in prerelease testing and they panic “fixed” him at the last minute, and even though that doesn’t track for how ArcSys does things, it still feels like the case
That sounds exactly like a thing they'd do, to be frank.
I think that was the problem with Johnny from previous games, like you had to use your limited amount of coins , no other chracter had to do that
johnny was also actually good though
that "problem" was imaginary, coins were a combo tool so building mist finer levels was no issue, also he had a way to recollect some coins via his super.
@@youssefehab8748 really ? i did not know that, i only remember him from the ggxx days
I don't feel like sin is the worse, I just feel like he isn't good at what he's meant to be, a rushdown mixup character. He has a long winded low, a bunch of rushes but he's more like a poke character with his ranged moves. He sure as hell does a lotta damage. I feel like the only issue with sin is his match ups are TOO even. He's very good against big brawly Bois tho (hi I'm a sin main btw)
he's not a good poke character because none of his pokes are disjointed or safe in a game full of disjointed and safe pokes. Also as I said, all of his special moves are minus on hit without the followup, and that includes Beak Driver. Something I should have included is that Beak Driver also has an extended hurtbox during recovery making it not only incredibly slow to recover on whiff but also basically a free whiff punish for characters with long range f.S combo starters (think Nago, Ram, Sol 6S)
But he isn't meant to be a rushdown mixup character, he's meant to be a footsies poking character that has insane rushdown tools such as his followups and corner carry potential
Problem is his pokes fucking sucks and his rushdown tools are so minus
@@MandyMixups even funnier yet, beak driver is -5 ON HIT iirc (definitely minus, i just dont remember by how much). it's so bad it's kinda funny
i love him tho
I came back to strive played a sin that kept mixing me and i just got my ass beat. Had no idea when it was my turn to attack
great video!
good video keep up the good work
you should mention he's not only unsafe on block but ALSO ON HIT, a lot of characters can even punish Sin with a reversal ON HIT, so you can just mash reversal whenever you're hit
I directly say in the video that he's minus on hit on all of his specials
@@MandyMixups minus on hit is fine imo, but it's a special kind of bad when you're unsafe on hit especially when reversals punishes them
Regardless of his current state in the game, I'll continue to rock my boy. On an unrelated note, damn this "copium" stuff is really good.
Edit: I've played sin for about 200 hrs, so I'll give my two cents on the topic. (Though I'm not celestial either so I suppose whether or not my opinion is valid is up to interpretation)
Pros:
Sin becomes miles better when you can have both of your meters charging, and I find when I'm able to get the wall break (Especially with a super), I can usually snowball my opponent with the options that gives me and overwhelm them. (That's his win condition in my experience)
Literally any stray hit gives him oki, (Since all of his follow ups knockdown) that you don't need to spend a dash on because 2S has a very long hit box that is usually reversal safe, if spaced correctly.
His corner carry is insane. Not only are his combos good for setting up Oki, but they usually toss the opponent half the screen away, often with their back to the wall, or through the wall with the cancel into super.
Man hits hard. Often even I'm surprised at how much health he cleaves off of even Pot and low blood Nago. Especially with meter.
Elk Hunt > follow up > gazelle step is easily my pick for his best move sequence, the guard crush forces a mix up every single time it's blocked. Your opponent has to guess between grab, or button. If you get your timing down pat, the only way to beat grab is to backdash or a super reversal, which is dangerous since his close slash gets a massive punish on backdash, and reversal supers are inherently risky. And if you have tension, you can even go for an overhead and convert that with RRC.
The disjointed j.Attacks are very handy when someone won't stay on the ground.
Cons:
His blockstrings SUCK. C.S > 2/6/5H> Beak Driver> Follow up is IT. EVERYTHING else has gaps. Some of them big enough that they can be 6P'd. (Ex. 2S > Beak Driver can be 6P'd. Try it in lab).
Even his gapless blockstrings can have gaps if you mess up the timing even slightly, meaning you have to be very aware of the timing.
Still growing is the most worthless move in this game. It has has 2 useful modes of 4 (Health and Tension), and even then, how good they are is also random ON TOP of being a 50/50 roll. The only time I ever do it is if I literally have no tension or stamina, and get a knockdown to try at the 50/50.
His competitive advantage is brutal. Why play him when you could play almost anyone else. Gio rushes down better. Pot has a better Guard Crush Oki. GL hits harder. Happy Chaos exists. His one thing that he does unique is the kara into his supers, but that requires at least 50 meter, and 1/3rd stamina, often 2/3rds.
His pressure being tied to meters means he has a very obvious tell on when the opponent should and should not counter attack, and gives him a built in pause button that forces him to go on the defence.
The necessity to condition your opponent means that if your opponent is good at calling out your options you kinda just... can't do anything.
J.D sucks. I have a single specific wall combo it's useful for. It's minus on hit which is buckwild to me.
TL;DR He does have some good qualities, but the good qualities require working around his flaws and forces you to put up with BS that other characters simply don't need to worry about that. And your reward for doing it is the same reward that other characters get easier, or sometimes even better reward for less.
Regardless of that, I'm sticking with him. He's fun, and that's what I care about.
I agree with your assesment on the "win-con". Roman cancels on positive bonus make for really stylish and tricky pressure. Ill add to the list of negatives with the really bad hit/hurtboxes and frame data on his key neutral options (f.s, 2.s, Driver, Backdash). If his keepaway game was more threatening/rewarding, he would have much less of a natural "end" to his pressure, and could end more combos early with a buffed Still Growing and keep range with tough to challenge flag normals. As opposed to now where you pretty much have to spend stamina every chance you can to try and force an advantage state.
Entering the TNS tournament tonight, lets see how many players dont know the MU.
@@unfortunateinc.205 Big agree, GL my man
Another disadvantage I see (though I consider myself inexperienced?) is round start and area shifts. Because of Sin's slower buttons, the only "good" options I see myself doing for the most part are moving backwards or hawk baker. It kinda is a bad tradeoff even if Sin get positive bonus imo.
@@IzzyD.Anarchy Nah this is correct, Sin has like a "deadzone" where his flag buttons are too slow and his lights are too stubby.
Could you leave the discord link so it’s easier to join the sever I’d like to join
I setup bedman counter attack in training mode to 2p after blocking, After 236K is blocked I can't get cS to come out only far S comes out and far S gets beat by bedman 2p. 5k beats the 2p though.
Fact that I played mostly Anji for my entire time in this and have been picking up Sin makes 1:05 funny specifically to me.
Thank you so much for this video! I wanted to buy a dlc character for so long but i have no idea who to go for
Lewis look cool but i guess he is a slow and Heavy hitter which i don't really like(like potemkin or Nago(?) )
Happy Chaos look cool and all but also like a handful to play and i really hope to preserve my Joystick for a while ahaha
Jack'O and yoyo dude look fun i guess?
Testament, Sin and Bedman are the one who attracts me the most gameplay wise but i heard that "That Man" is coming to the game in May and maybe i should wait for him?
Any suggestions?
if you're unsure about the DLC then its best to hold off untill Asuka(that man) gets released or you could drop the money and get the season pass(es) and try everyone yourself, but thats an investment i dont recommend.
I noticed swapping between Sin and Baiken just how weak Sin is by comparison in that the poor guys simply doesnt have a win condition at all, Baiken wants to keep you on a leash and force 50/50s with the instant overhead and her down heavy slash but Sin doesnt have anything close to being scary in terms of pressure tools. I have a friend who is new to the game and even he can react to Sins "mixups" without much effort because they are so slow and easy to react to. Having to condition an opponent isnt a great outlook given the fact it means nothing in the face of an enemy who doesnt have to do the same but simply do what their character is good at, get in close with Potem and nuke the enemy with a couple busters, get in with Gio and just strike throw till they die, get in with Sol and just do Sol things, Sin just exists in a sad bubble where he doesnt do anything well and cant maintain any pressure hes like a pressure cooker with no valve, all the pieces are there but he cant keep anything in to finish the deal. The fact he has to resource manage plus frames is also ridiculous and only works on people who dont know the data or are just new the same thing really. I like Sin and think he looks cool but hes just not effective enough to play and it becomes both tedious and annoying to get so close yet be so far because oop I actually got pressure time to get started and womp womp all my stamina is gone so I'm now minus on everything. I think a retooling of his stamina bar or perhaps just a change to his frame data to where he isnt super negative but just safe would be a good call, maybe make his mix ups a little less reactable as well so they can be actually useful in a fight.
I don't understand how people think Sin is low tier.
I think he's a solid character.
Basically, terrible frame data and pokes that has bigger hurtboxes than hitboxes. Way too reliant on stamina to get anything done, and the eating move is actually detrimental to use
Who do you main if you don’t mind me asking
@WavyKiing Goldlewis and Giovanna
Then everyone else is like a pocket to me since I try to play everyone to get an understanding of them
Every character walks all over him bro
Ngl if his moves were juiced and this eat did something he'd probably be closer to xrd where he ms pretty deep but alas they gutted his eat
this character could be fixed by making eat recover stamina 🤷♂️
His stamina already recovers by itself so making eat recover stamina is unnecessary, make it so it speeds up stamina recovery temporarily
TFW you find this video after and see that sin got a technicality nerf
I love Giovanna having Portuguese named attacks, cuz I can laugh at people saying "trovão" as "trovao"
This version of him is such a far cry of what he use to be it's really sad
Honestly I feel like sin suffers the same fate KY had at strive launch saw how they were in xrd and changed and put them in strive to compensate for xrd rather than looking at how strive was going to play. KY I can forgive cause launch character ( kinda forgive) sin is lol
I might have missed it but I dont think you mentioned that his “eat” is litteraly useless lmao
Sin can still be a nuisance at times if he gets the right pressure.
Other than that is the "Dan Hibiki" of GGST
I am actually quite confused by this video as a whole but mostly on 2 points
And I am a scrub so whatever but
The examples you showed and the words you were saying aren't making sense to me
1st you looked me dead in my face and told me sin is +/-8 on block depending on if u follow up that uses a resource...
No mention on how fast it recovers.. in the example the 2 bars spent to get the hit 1 and a half was recovered by the end of the combo... so I don't understand why you wouldn't use it rather liberally for +8.... mind you is twice the amount of +4 (lol I know that doesn't matter shh)
2nd: kys game can revolve around his super...but sins supers aren't a part of his game plan?
I am very ready to be wrong here. But I'm thinking there might be some kind of fundamental peice to sin people are missing..... Idk what it is but I'd be lying if I said this character has 0 to offer anybody
I'm sorry but I'm a dog shit player who only started playing the game again because of Sin. Having not played the game for a year prior to his release I wasn't expecting to hit celestial while being on floor 8 prior. If Sins meter was removed I feel like he would be a fucking monster. For players like me that love forcing your opponent to defend for their life(former chipp main) the split second you touch them, understanding what a player does under pressure is what I try and figure out asap. That being said if Sin didn't have the meter it would just be constant pressure and exploiting personal weaknesses with little to no drawback. While that would be fun af I don't want the chipp reputation again, for I have atoned for my sins.
Sin's major issue is his frame data not really the meter he has to manage. Imo better frame data would solve a lot of sins issues. and it wouldnt be constant pressure it would be constant 1 layer rps
I just want them to release Dizzy. She's always been my main since X... It doesn't feel like a GG game without her
Has anyone seen sin actually run out of stamina tho?
yes quite regularly
All the time
TLDR: He’s too fair
Just like his Father
I mean, kinda? It's Guilty Gear, the entire game's about putting your opponent in unfair blender situations. Sin can't do that. A fair character in a game full of such conniving menaces is a recipe for a character that just isn't up to par.
Ky is fair but he's good. Sin is just weak
Sin is definitely under tuned but I find a lot of the points in this video be disingenuously made likely on the account of a misinterpretation of the character.
The video implies Sin's pressure revolves around, and his win condition is unlocked through, the RPS triggered by his follow-ups. In my opinion, this is just completely wrong. Sin runs a pretty linear and good pressure game revolved around the threat of Hoof Stomp to warrant defensive responses from your opponent.
Removing the possibility of 50 meter, overheads in Strive are generally categorized into two types:
Type 1 would be a super fast (20-21F startup), low return (soft-down or stagger on hit), and punishable on block (-8F) overhead. Think of Chipp's Rekka 3 and Anji's Rin.
Type 2 would be a super slow (28F startup) overhead that lacks key frames (Like the glow from dust), has solid return (2K2D), and is safe on block (+2). Think of Millia and Zato's 6K.
Hoof Stomp falls in the Type 1 category but the Stamina mechanic skews the risk return in his favor. Follow up leaves you -8, just like the other overheads, however unlike others, the pushback is far enough to make it "safe" (As in you're negative but nothing fast enough can reach you in time to punish). When you start RPSing with the follow up you get chances to blow up your opponent for mashing, chances to use Hoof Stomp raw, and you can attack their IB timing if you so choose. The reward on Hoof follow up (granted you have the appropriate amount of stamina) is huge, and you are very close to winning if it hits and you have the appropriate stamina to convert with.
Hoof Stomp applies way more mental stack because it's better with meter (Stomp > Super is cheap), and lacks a "pre-requisite" to perform. Chipp cannot perform Rekka 3 without committing to Rekka 1, and Anji cannot perform Rin without going into Fujin. These "pre-requisites" isolate the rest of the character's kit and simplifies the situation. You are not just randomly getting hit, you have time to brace yourself. Hoof Stomp, however, can be used from any special cancellable normal at any time. This is incredibly useful considering there's moves in Sin's kit like Elk Hunt which are incredibly dangerous to even block. You also have to look out for other options, like throw. You also have ways to attack fuzzy timing with 6K, as its a low that also has 21F startup. Sin's win condition is to get you in this position, which can theoretically happen just off catching you blocking.
Type 1 overheads are 21 Frames, so yeah, they're reactable by definition. Lets be real though, there's no way you consistently block them 100% of the time. This is more so the case for Sin than any of the other characters in the game with such a overhead. Calling his pressure bad or reactable is completely disingenuous.
In my opinion, the main problem with Sin is his buttons. They're slow, they have high recovery, some of them are stubby, some have pushback issues, and some of their hurtboxes are really shit. Its really hard to place buttons and by extension its hard box someone out. You cant have that in Strive, which is full of these mid-range "neutral," but not really because someone is slightly minus, situations. Sin by legacy is supposed to be the character okay with returning to neutral. You can tell by how Stamina is designed they wanted that for him in Strive but they just fell short in designing his buttons. I mean, Sin probably puts himself in those situations the most because of how all his follow ups are slightly minus. I do think they should increase the Stamina bar, maybe by like 1 or 2, to help leviate the situations where its like "Okay this situation I worked for is super good but I need 2 stamina bars to make the best of it."
sin isnt really that weak idk what yall mean
Yeah he's not weak, but in strives context his toolset is a lot more lacking than the other characters(Pot excluded)
@@youssefehab8748 If you want to talk about lacking moveset I think Faust is worse than Pot in this regard
I agree with you but give some solutions
Heres the thing, theres none. The rich get richer the poor stay poor
Easiest sub of my fkn life.
I guess you haven’t played Faust before. Faust has no safe options yet everyone complains about sin. Yeah it sucks sin can make everything safe and then gets meter after that. Super unfair.
This is ridiculous, just play c.s strike throw to get your stamina back.
They should have just put sin from xrd into the game and he would be fine 😎👍
He would be ridiculously broken+disfunctional because walls stick combos arent a thing because the wall breaks.
They NERFED HIM.
They should have buffed him, and specifically his random buffs.
nerf sin bros mix up is too brocken
joke?
This is so sad...
Can we nerf him?
I thought people considered sin like average mid teir not great but better than others am I missing something
Are you talking about xrd? Because he's an actual menace there but still not really top tier
@@z1u512 no in strive, I knew he was a menace in xrd I was a slayer main he countered me
I just think he’s neat :)
Me too big guy
Nerf in the form of a bug fix 😂
nice vid good stuf
yo why i am in here i didn't plan that (they nerfed sin crying)
I think hes just a boring character, i cannot see what they’re able to do to change him
Sin is pure yolo
no
Bruh, I'm handing ppl fat L's with Sin. Hit em with a flag; head empty.
0:53 just like dad :)
Except Ky doesn't have a win condition either. RTL into wallbreak is generally not something you want to be wasting meter on unless it kills, and if anything making sure you always hav 50 meter on Ky for the huge threat of Stun Dipper RC is probably closest to having a win condition. And not having a win condition is not a problem either, having a more open-ended flow to your game is fine. I'm sure Sin needs some assists but not every character needs a specific win condition they need to be pidgeon-holed into.
A hard knock down and positive bonus is absolutely worth half a bar
nerf bedmam
Oh gaslighting at its best
Sin is not bad
HAHAHA THEY NERFED SIN 😂😂😂😂🫵
As someone who mained Axl in Xrd then in Strive this honestly feels like the players don't understand the nuances of Sins changes. It took a long while for Axls to do something else besides jS spam and atm Sins need to do something else then run up DP like it's a valid strat or actually take the minute to decipher why that's optimal for him. These things take time and Sin has some good potential but I feel there's a fundamental misuse of stamina moves with most Sin players. Just because you have full stamina doesn't necessarily mean you have to dump it all every combo just to get a wallbreak then realize post wallbreak break you can't keep pressure from spending it all.
Kys Ride the Lightning might honestly be a bad super. It was cool seeing it wallbreak from so far but as it turns out that's not that special and lots of characters have insane wall to wall carry.. You can actually find multiple examples of Kys losing a match after RTL leaving them at the magic pixel instead of Dragon Installing in order to keep post wallbreak pressure up. Gameplans aren't that cut and dry.
Axl is meant to zone but half of his best moves pull the opponent at him or requires being up close to hit them with it. There's a lot of nuance left out of Sins interpretation. I think he has amazing normals and some of the best hit confirms in the game. He wants mid range to force the opponent to try and come at him but can also go in to keep + frames and do chip. As well as a potential mix-up off the overhead. It's not the most scary up close pressure but his keep out game is amazing. I'd play him like a Ky or a Testament then a Gio.
The problem is GG Strive has so many rushdown characters people legit forgot what normal neutral looks like. So they end up forcing their character to play in a style that's not their core strength. Close Slash is every characters best starter but that doesn't mean everyone wants to be in Close Slash range. Some food for thought.
Came from Reddit btw 👍
I think people force each combo so much on sin because of his relatively weak neutral. Yeah you can end a combo early and save some stamina but what next? Eating is generally a bad idea, and a whole slew of the cast can pretty comfortably outplay sins main pokes. Sin players would much rather take a wallbreak than risk playing neutral again.
at no point did we even talk about run-up DP? and no, dude, it's not a "misuse of stamina moves" that's the issue here. Sin's frame data is objectively bad, Sin's neutral is objectively bad. He doesn't want to be midrange because none of his normals have good disjointed hitboxes, and in fact Beak Driver has an EXTENDED hurtbox during recovery that makes it incredibly easy to whiff punish, while also being his only good poke in neutral. I promise you, the issue is not Sin players "playing him wrong" or Strive "forcing you to play rushdown" the issue is that Sin is a holistically bad character. Try playing him like a mid-range zoner like he is in Xrd and watch as you get obliterated by Nago 5H because Sin is not a mid-range zoner like he is in Xrd.
As the Sin player in the video, what?
Man's saying ky's should be using DI
yeah, reddit checks out
elk hunt was probably the worst of sin's specials to use an example of his lacking power relative to the rest of the roster
a -8 low profile approach option in this game is actually not bad and that's completely ignoring the possibility of follow up
you want to talk about a bad low profile approach option? try using one that's -17 on block, cannot be followed up or special cancelled at all and has a full standing hurtbox while active that can lose to fucking *anti airs*
elk hunt is borderline privileged
you want to talk about a bad special move on sin? you talk about hawk baker or beaker driver, not fucking elk hunt
GUILTY GEAR XX ACCENT CORE IS BETTER THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED.
no
Sin would be so much better if the stamina meter was omitted entirely. I think they only added it because he has meter management in Xrd. Kinda should have let it die imo :/
true, they changed his gameplan too much to even need a limiter. XRD Sin needed on because All of his buttons were disgustingly large *and plus when cancelling*. This Sin already lost the eating mechanic, big normals, and special cancels. So in Strive he really doesn't need his own meter.
LMAO no
But his stamina meter is what made him stand out among the cast, why remove that made Sin, Sin? I would rather just simply balance it or slightly rework how it works to make him more consistent and function well than remove it.
2:25 "no other has to make this trade-off, between having to spend a very precious resource or just loosing your turn."
Yes there is... that's Anji. If Fuujin and it's follow ups are blocked, you loose your turn immediatly. The good extender out of Fuujin is Shin: Ichishiki (the one where he throes two fans in the ground) that is +7 on block. BUT GUESS WHAT, not only it is reactable, is safe to jump out of the move, to DP off the move and some characters can 6P counter hit depending on the timming. In summary if Anji does not have metter to RRC/PRC mid pressure, he loses every time, to basically any character. and this is post buffs.
So yeah Sin is in a worst spot because Anji has other good tools at his disposal to get some big reward to captalise on, but I'd say that SIn, Anji and Pot are the worst characters in the roster and need buffs.
in a real match, people wont raw react to fan toss. If the anji player is ALWAYS doing either the high/low followup and getting punished on block, it is the anji's fault for not introducing a 3rd option. The way you spoke about anji is as if you've tested all these options in a vacuum. When, in reality, you do not play in a vacuum. the opponent must be aware of all of anji's options, however limited you make them seem. If you tested these yourself in training mode by setting the dummy to do something after blocking, then your conclusions(dp excluded) are incorrect because no one is going to 6P on reaction, not because it just will NOT work, but also because it would potentially beat 1 option of anji's and get smoked by the rest. Dp is fair because its a very common buffer on defense. Describing anji as needing of RRC/PRC to aid pressure means that you have a flawed understanding of Anji's pressure. Anji excels at either blitzing the opponent with quick and almost random options, or playing slower and conditioning the opponent(both equally as effective). Also, Anji is NOT bottom 3, he is a mid tier(low mid tier at worst). Comparing him to Pot and Sin is crazy downplay imo and Anji is in a much better spot than both of them. Anji does not need buffs. This is all my opinion tho, feel free to discuss :)
1:15
You say "kara cancel into super" a lot here, but none of the examples you show is a kara cancel. I don't know if Sin actually does have kara cancels into super or if you just think canceling a special move into a super is a kara cancel, but that's not what the term means.
This actually IS a kara-cancel. Sin's supers dont naturally combo from his specials, so to achieve that effect he cancels the startup frames of gazelle step into a super. Hence a Kara-Cancel
my brother in christ you literally see him cancel the startup of gazelle step into RTL for a midscreen wallbreak AT THE TIMECODE YOU POINTED TO
Strive specials dont normally super cancel unlike street fighter, outside of the very first 3 frames, which normally comes up through follow up specials like how chipp can do rekka 1 rekka 2 super, Sin uses gazelle step for this
@@unfortunateinc.205 first time?
Eh, Idk about this take. Has interesting ideas but I don’t think Sin is that bad.
he's pretty bad, he falls short of almost everyone else in the game
Èl C}%%{
not that Sin is good i'm not arguing on that; but i feel like people think "I'm spending resources it should be good!" is getting the things wrong.
because a interaction with Sin with resources is something and a interaction with Sin without is something else. and THAT is the intent behind him having a resource.
and you can't just average "resource Sin" and "resourceless Sin" and compare it other other characters. you are technically flowing between two characters
Sin is just playing a different game and maybe that different game is not good enough compared to other characters and need a buff, and that's valid.
but direct comparisons just won't work.
also it will never get old how English speakers can't say "Trovão"
like i really don't care either way is just funny.
for curiosity sake it is spelled "troVAM-UM" without a interval
this only means the Giovanna is busted
As much as Themstament was great I think Sin should have been swapped in his place so that it didn’t feel as unsatisfying for others
how you gonna say themstament and then say "his". smh inconsistency
@@youssefehab8748 proof?
@@vinjingainer of what? Testament being non binary?
Themstament made my day.
>I'd be shocked if Sin went untouched..
They touched him alright - nerfed him. At this point you'd be naive to expect ArcSys balancing to be anything other than completely braindead.