I thought is was VERY good. I would like to see examples of the amazing stadiums, academies, and facilities that we can build because of the financial security. Big players and talent want to play in the biggest stadiums and fan bases. We need to remember we are NOT a soccer 1st country even though I think soccer has surpassed hockey and baseball (with those 35 and under). If we want to improve MLS and grow our academies we need to attract players with stadiums that can house a ton of fans and academies where the get top training and facilities. Soccer being the 3rd - 5th sport in US is a much higher risk to invest in a team than in Europe.
Just to add to your point about risky investments in stadiums: in many cases there's tax-payer money involved too, which usually means a vote. With 4 other major sports leagues (that are closed), the average voter would decline to pitch in for another stadium when the team might be relegated just for having a bad season. If soccer were the *one* dominant sport here, then maybe...
I don't think all 2nd tier teams would have to come up with full entry fee. That would be pretty silly, imo, for a long chance to move up. More realisticly, a 2nd tier league would have to come up with a fee = roughly 2 teams, maybe? Use that $ to compensate the first few years of relegated teams. But I don't disagree that it's a tough sell. Why would Chicago or Houston accept it?
I disagree with the logistics and geographic argument. Brazil is just as big as the United States and we have 4 divisions. Yes, the distance can complicate things, but we managed with airplanes, and I'm pretty sure that the American infrastructure is better than what we have in Brazil. One could argue that the top 13 Brazilian clubs are within São Paulo, Rio, Minas Gerais and Rio Grande do Sul, but lately Northeastern clubs have ascended to top positions within the league. Also, last year, Cuiabá, from Midwest Brazil had its debut in the first division and ended among top the 10. Not to mention, these are clubs that play over 60 games a year, 90 if they qualify for the Libertadores and Sul-americana. So this argument doesn't make sense at all. Promotion and Relegation would give an opportunity for lower divisions clubs to compete for the national championship and also reveal great talent within the leagues. Ronaldo and Romário, for example, were 2 players from Bangú and Olaria, 2 teams from the lower divisions.
The recent success of the (lower-division) Sacramento FC, who defeated three MLS teams en route to the finals of the U.S. Soccer Open, certainly lends weight to your argument. I don't discount the possibility that American professional soccer may go to a promotion-relegation structure in the future -- I just don't believe we are ready, at this time, for the current system to be replaced.
@@lordpembridge303 we're used to it with all of our other sports. It's kind of cool to see a different system in football. The league is unpredictable when almost any team can win
Really informative. I'm a UK football fan and whenever my mates talk about US football the well worn line to deride the MLS is it's lack of promotion/relegation. We've got promo/relegation here but the premier league has almost become a closed shop. Clubs relegated from the PL get so called "parachute" payments which is supposed to soften the drop in revenue. What it in fact does is allow these clubs to keep PL grade players on PL grade wages whilst in a lower league. The result is clubs getting promoted back to the PL after just one season away. For any club which does manage to get promoted to the PL the spending power of the existing PL clubs is so great that many promoted clubs last just one season before being relegated. Norwich City are a great example of this type of yo-yo club. They've been promoted/relegated/promoted in the last 3 seasons! Based on your video I"d say the same situation would most likely occur in the US if you adopted promotion/relegation
Yeah what your saying is true. Even despite that though, those teams that promote and relegate every season are important for improving the quality of football at the top level and pressuring top teams to get better in order to still dominate. And it still creates that excitement and incentive for the smaller newly promoted clubs. With that being said, I think it is more important for Pro-Rel to be introduced at the lower levels of football in America. Football is a localized and very accessible sport that is designed to grow from down, up just like any market or business really. Even in the Uk, if you really look at it promotion and relegation is actually more important for the lower divisions then it is the upper ones. The financial fallout is far less severe if your relegated, but the growth potential can be huge for a smaller club and the incentive it creates for everyone involved from players, to fans, to coaches, to small businesses that are invested in, etc is a huge driving factor for the sport. At the top level, pro-rel can be bad and create severe inbalances, but at the lower levels it’s very important.
@@FootPauler No it’s doesn’t the top 6 aren’t going anywhere anytime soon, You’re not gonna see Norwich even sniff mid table in our lifetime. Pro/Rel is a very unstable system especially if you’re a small club, plus American Owners would never go for it because in American leagues the Revenue is shared equally among all teams no matter how good or bad they are, so why would an Owner from a weaker team give that up for “excitement & competition?”
@@fivehundrediq5212 Because that is how you make soccer a more successful sport in the United States. If you give time for local communities to develop a soccer culture, like derbies, paraphernalia, and invest more in a half-decent stadium that doesn't bankrupt these institutions, and doesn't spend heavily on expensive European players, then there is a possible way to implement promotion and relegation.
@@bentancur-wd4vc - Only 9th letter 4th letter 9th letter 15th letter 20th letter 19th letter Iike you would think Jacksonville would support a USFL Jaguars team when they won't even support a losing NFL team either, much less a AAA soccer team! And only 9th letter 4th letter 9th letter 15th letter 20th letter 19th letter Iike you would think America would watch a 6-20-7 Miami squad take on a 6-19-8 San Jose Earthquakes for the right to NOT get relegated to AAA! America doesn't watch losers unless you are the Green Bay Packers and Chicago Cubs!
I hope you do a video about the first soccer league in the US the 1920s ASL. Had the beginnings of being a big time league if the Great Depression never happened.
@@YankReport Yes it would be a very good research. Also two of the first big time USA players played in that league. Billy Gonsalves the "Babe Ruth" of American soccer at the time was a big time player for the ASL and the clubs Fall River Marksmen and Boston SC. He also played for our first USA World Cup teams in 1930 and 34, winning our closest place of winning the WC coming in 3rd. Then you have probably one of the best scorers in the league at the time Archie Stark. He also played for USA in 1925 but didn't sadly get a chance for the 2 World Cups because I think scheduling issues he had. He played in ASL as well and played for clubs like the legendary Bethelhem Steel FC and New York Field Club. I really hope you do a vid on this. People need to know we had a very great chance of starting real passion for soccer in the 20s. That could've changed the landscape of World Football if it went on.
yes but what needs to be remembered is it wasn't simply the depression but internal league bickering that killed the original ASL in the early 30s... remember they had large crowds well before Grid Iron football did... back when Baseball Boxing and Cycling were our big spectator sports
I did an alternate history thing where the ASL continued. I believe it could have made the sport much more popular in the US if it had carried on and grown.
💗 how you broke it down that pro rel needs to be regional because of our times zones and distances, plus that our lower divisions aren't up to par in infrastructure or resources to handle it, and securing lending for operations would be more expensive because the probability of a first division team collapsing if they got relegated would be significantly higher than on single entity where the league protects them from contracting.
@@YankReport The more you think about it the less sense it makes in terms of sports and entertainment. If you never have to worry about being relegated then there is no real reason to improve, you can just suck and get money.
@@OriginalPuro Well, then how do you expect low division teams get the funds to even operate? That’s why low divisions teams in England won’t progress to the premier league. They lack funds.
I think Pro/Rel should be regionally based, but it would be conferences. USL is already split into conferences you can have the bottom two teams go down and the top two teams from the conferences below go up. My personal idea is to have two teams from each conference in the lower division play the bottom two teams in each conference in MLS in a two legged series. How you determine the teams from USL could be team with best overall record/points, the USL champion and runners up in the overall standings. This would create excitement for some small clubs to have a chance to win through the USL playoffs to have a shot at MLS. I would also think the play-in matches between MLS and USL would be must see TV. I think it is a good idea, but any form of pro/rel is probably many years away.
Excellent analysis! Agree that pro/rel is not realistic for pro soccer in U.S at this time. A couple additional thoughts: 1)In the roughly equivalent time that the modern Premier League and MLS have been around, the PL has had 7(?) different teams win its championship; MLS has had 18 different champions. While there are certainly disadvantages to revenue sharing (losing some of our best players to foreign teams being the most obvious), in this case, spreading the wealth around has fostered interest on the league and in the sport, and helped ensure MLS's survival. 2)Your observations regarding the size of the country are spot on; which is why Nashville SC,who will suddenly find themselves in the Western Conference next year, will face a distinct disadvantage due to travel fatigue. Hopefully this mistake will be corrected with the addition of St. Louis in 2023. (The timing is also unfortunate in that NSC were just beginning to establish healthy rivalries with regional opponents Atlanta and Orlando.)
I have this lovely idea to make the MLS interesting. First, maximum of 40 teams in the league. 20 in the west, 20 in the east. Next, treat each conference as it own league. Remember that the USA is big, probably as big as Europe aside Russia. Each team plays 38 games against JUST their conference rivals. No inter-conference matches. This will help a lot with logistics, traveling for games for both the club and their fans. Next, the team with the best record (most points) win the conference. For example, if the season was to end now, FC Cincinnati will be the champion of the East and St Louis FC champions of the West. As for the playoffs, rebrand it to be as appealing as the UEFA Champions League. Occurs after the regular season as usual. The top 8 teams from each conference would qualify for the tournament. Each round played over two legs except the Final. Round 1: draw an Eastern team with a Western team Round 2-the final: Draw any team meets any team. For example: 2 teams from same conference can meet each other. All-Stars weekend: Stop playing with European teams. East vs. West. The team that win will have their regular season champion host the Post season tournament final.
I believe that the MLS infrastructure is flawed and makes it difficult for lower league teams to get promoted if there were to be pro/rel. I’m hoping NISA (a new league of independent clubs) succeeds in creating pro/rel. Enjoyed the video. Keep it up!
I like what I see from NISA, but their structure success rely to heavily on USSF changing their sanctioning rules. I have no faith in that happening with MLS holding the strings.
Ok but that doesn’t explain the financial side. There’s a reason why low division teams in England can’t progress to the premier league. Because they lack funds.
Buen video, buen análisis. Ya quiero ver la MLS completa con sus 30 equipos, espero que con los años sea la super liga que merece ser. Y hoy juega la USMNT contra Honduras!!!!!!!! Jajaja veremos quién gana, que gane el mejor.
USL Clubs are to tiny to enter MLS. USL Needs to get into stable conditions (the same conditions of MLS) Same Stadiums , A capacity more than 20,00 (Which Many USL teams which soccer specific stadiums don’t have) If Phoenix rising and Indy Eleven get new stadiums the chances can be more possible BUT we need more USL teams to do the same thing plus moving to adidas every season you get promoted can be a disaster so all MLS well need to make every team to choose its own sports brand which that would probably spending money every year you get promoted. Also Here are a Few More Reasons : 1. MLS Owners Have No Upside in risking their investment 2 . Professional Sports in the US are closed systems (MLS Could Never get pro and real) 3 . Economic Ramifications of relegation could to USL Clubs could be ruinous for some clubs 4. Relegation into USL Could be lead to decreased attendances 5. MLS Clubs Does Not Have The infrastructure or Financial clout to “flourish” as much other relegated to 2nd tier leagues such as EFL Championship or 2.Bundesliga (Sorry if I got something wrong)
1) why do you care whether billionaire investments require ROI? Do billionaires guarantee your season ticket investment leads to a successful season? 2) closed systems are socialism. Why wouldn't you prefer a capitalist system instead? 3) if USL clubs start small, returning to small would be the price for failure. 4) Give clubs some credit--they would expect that sucking has consequences but you clearly do not believe that should be the case. 5) Your club better not suck, then, so remind your club they need to stay up.
These are the best arguments I've heard against pro/rel for MLS. Most arguments I've heard of why pro/rel isn't coming to the league has been from a pure financial perspective.
Yo creo que la MLS se complica por gusto. 1.- No es necesario que sus divisiones sean de 20 a más equipos, actualmente bien podrían dividir la MLS en dos grupos de 12 clubes que podrían funcionar tranquilamente como dos categorías de ascenso y descenso. 2.- Pese a que el factor histórico es importante para la supervivencia de un club (motivo por lo cual Argentina y Brasil siguen dominando el fútbol sudamericano), también hay casos de equipos relativamente nuevos que son incluso más competitivos que los clásicos grandes. Vease Defensa y Justicia, Independiente del Valle, Bragantino, Melgar de Arequipa o Deportes Tolima. 3.- Los descensos y ascensos son una forma de filtrar ligas, en donde se mantiene la calidad en vez de la cantidad. Que si funciona bien, pueden tener una competición como el Brasilerao, en donde incluso los grandes pueden peligrar el descenso por una mala temporada. 4.- La MLS por población (en parte gracias a los latinos) y dinero tiene el potencial para ser la mejor Liga del continente. Cosa que no se logrará sin antes mejorar internamente y competir, junto a la MX en la Libertadores y Sudaméricana; campeonatos en donde en verdad habrá una competencia a muerte contra otros grandes equipos del continente.
Thanks for the extra context. I want to see pro/rel but with all the considerations you brought up, we maybe decades away from that. I wonder if there would be a knock on effect to other leagues. If MLS had pro/rel at some point, would that induce NBA, NHL and MLB to adopt a similar model in the future???
No. Why should other leagues change its closed system because another did it? Plus, soccer development is different in comparison to the baseball, basketball, American football and hockey. Pro-reg doesn't add anything of true value. And there's this thing called the NCAA, arguing the best training ground for many Olympic sports.
MLS has a stranglehold on club soccer due to their antitrust exemptions. Relegation is generations away UNLESS financial ruin forces the hands of so many owners that they agree to a new rights commercial contract from billionaires with financial support for lower rung clubs.
No, American's prefer socialist sports leagues instead of capitalist ones. MLS = full-on commie billionaire league, but it's hilarious reading people defending the poor billionaires and their investments.
@@pogfee Geography related concerns in the capacity of travel time were mentioned in the video. The winter climate of the North Atlantic is typically argued against Pro/Rel in North America. It was merely a fun comment based on proven remedies to test for what your otherwise unspoken sympathies could be.
I'm from Australia and soccer fans that follow our A-league which is also closed model have this very same debate. People that advocate for a Pro/Reg system have adopted a very eurocentric viewpoint that is not realistic to countries like the US/Canada and Australia where our sporting culture is more based around a draft and a singular finals champion for the entirety of the professional league. Different to Europe where individual teams are allowed to not only compete in the local top flight professional league, but also Pan European tournaments. It's simply an adaption of the sport go the country. Similar to how Euroleague and FIBA Europe basketball work pro/reg into the American sport of Basketball.
It's not an issue of Eurocentric or not. It's whether we believe in a socialist business model or a capitalist one. Unfortunately, Americans prefer the socialist model because they don't know any better. Maybe if the learn enough about the sport they might change their minds, but that is 2 lifetimes away at this point.
Add pro/reg with a regional divide into 8 (6 states per region) to play for a cup . This allows local clubs from each region to be part of the main stage and pull in more fans/$ when promoted. Then have a playoff from all the top teams from each region like the UCL cup.
Such a setup would be highly inequitable given the population distribution of the US: A - WA, OR, ID, MT, ND, SD, AK B - CA, NV, UT, AZ, CO, WY, HI C - NM, TX, OK, KS, LA, AR D - NE, MN, IA, MO, WI, IL E - IN, MI, OH, KY, WV, TN F - MS, AL, FL, GA, SC, NC G - VA, MD, DE, PA, NJ, NY, DC H - CT, MA, RI, VT, NH, ME Even if you try to divide things up equitably, it would be hard to apply that method to some parts of the country. With four regions it might make a little more sense.
Hey amigo, me gustan tus videos por que es muy informative para poder conocer mas del futbol estadounidense!! Good job bro👍 has mas videos mas seguido.
While I want pro/rel, I admit it'd be a logistical, financial nightmare right now. Lower league teams need time to build their infrastructure. Once that's done, I can envision a regional pro/rel, where the US is divided into 2 conferences, East and West. D2 teams in each conference get promoted to D1. And Eastern and Western conferences would only play each other for an MLS/Open Cup final and possibly off season friendlies. Its the best way to ensure somewhat fair travel demands and budget control.
Exactly... And while MLS would be totally absorbed by the logistics of such a ridiculous proposal, the other US sports league would continue being as successful as they are without any of this pro/rel nonsense!
@@davepazz580 pro/reg would help futbol/soccer in the USA grow! And It would be more successful than it is right now… but it’s years away still to be able to think about that.
@@gamingcreator0083 I don't see how that would... basically pro/rel is replacing one bad team with another bad team every year. If the teams coming up from the second division were of the caliber of a Bayern Munich, Real Madrid, Man City, etc. *then* I could understand this making soccer more successful... but we know that's *far* from the actual quality of what second-division teams have to offer. But even if we're talking about "years away", MLS has already been founded and established as single-entity league where all the teams are league-owned... therefore, no MLS team can just get up and league to go play in any other division but the top one.
@@davepazz580 I actually don’t think the Gap between MLS and USL Is that big to be honest..Just look at this years open cup. Unfortunately that is true … gotta protect your investment right🙃 … but i do think pro/reg would help MLS immensely
@@gamingcreator0083 The gap is actually quite wide when you consider US Open Cup games aren't even prioritized by MLS teams (they usually send reserve, make-shift squads to those games)... It's a *lot* different if you put that same USL team in an MLS regular season week in and week out... these odd US Open Cup matches don't really prove much. Recall Cincinnati's first year in MLS... that team kept a lot of it's USL players and got pretty hammered every week. It wasn't until they got more players with MLS experience that they've slowly turning things around now.
That’s definitely what the USA should adopt but the mls owners wouldn’t want to adopt that due to knowing that their club would get relegated and losing money. So the league would need to think of something to peruse the owners
@@fivehundrediq5212 holy shit I completely change my thoughts on pro and rel in the mls. I agree with you. I actually think it would plump the ratings in the mls and that wouldn’t be a good fit
@@fivehundrediq5212 also brazil has most of its clubs near eachother and very few that are quite a distance away. Where as the USA has teams in northwest northeast south west texas southeast. I brought up texas because it’s the size of west Europe basically
@@captainyank138 In 2019 The PL Title Race between Man City & Liverpool came down to the last day…….was anybody caring about Pro/Rel? The the fact that the ESL almost formed (will form in the future) even shows the European Owners that Pro/Rel makes no financial sense.
I don't think the casual fans in US or Canada would fully understand. I think that MLS could benefit from having 32 teams at this point as well as using the NFL schedule model and maybe even their playoff system
I'm Portuguese and as far as I know, I'm the only MLS fan here (sarcasm). You made a lot of valid points for sure but isn't It possible to have the "MLS Championship" state divided and invite the biggest teams from USL and NISA to join giving them chances to grow to have the goal to get promoted to MLS, I want to believe some of this teams have already some conditions to join in at least as a second division teams. Also, the relegation needed a parachute to assure the teams don't go out of money, you made a good point that maybe credit and investor will lose interest if the team get relegation but maybe we will get more investors interested cause they can invest in second league teams with a lower risk. I'm a football manager and database maker and usually play a lot on MLS and also did a database with a second MLS following these rules I mentioned.
If you were to introduce pro/rel into the MLS something people often forget about is Canada, the CPL is becoming a competitive league itself and with three Canadian teams in the MLS you would have to find a way to include Canada into the pro/rel system, this would further complicate things as either you could make the second tier of each country merge or you could have them split into regional leagues at the tier 2. If you choose to merge them then the travel issue become a huge problem. But if you choose to regionalize them then you have to decide do we do 2 or 4 regions and with 2 the travel issue is still there just not as bad, then you have to decide how to figure out promotion and relegation. With two regional leagues then you could do the winner of each league plus the two second place teams go into a playoff spot
This wouldn't be an issue at all. The Canadian and US soccer systems are completely separate and they would continue to be separate under pro/rel. Any Canadian team playing the US soccer pyramid would have nothing to do with Canadian soccer pyramid and vice versa.
Im from indonesia despite how large our country is we still using promosion and relegation and in our first division we have team that consist from the west end(persiraja from aceh) to the east end(persipura from jayapura, papua), and before 2008, our league also separated by west conferences and east conferences but still there is promotion and relegation for example in first division total 34 teams and divided 18 west and 18 east so the relegation system is like the bottom 3 from east and west both are going down to 2nd division. Even in the 96-99 our league divided into 3 areas, east-middle-west. And yes there is a lot of financial problem here, but the problem isnt cause by promotion/relegation system.
Exactly! We have 4 divisions in Brazil, and it's just as big as the United States. Corinthians, for example, traveled from São Paulo to Chapecó, SC and then to Fortaleza, CE on the same week. The distance from one city to another is just as far as LA to NY and we managed just fine. So how can that even be an argument for not having relegation and promotion? Lol
I have this lovely idea to make the MLS interesting. First, maximum of 40 teams in the league. 20 in the west, 20 in the east. Next, treat each conference as it own league. Remember that the USA is big, probably as big as Europe aside Russia. Each team plays 38 games against JUST their conference rivals. No inter-conference matches. This will help a lot with logistics, traveling for games for both the club and their fans. Next, the team with the best record (most points) win the conference. For example, if the season was to end now, FC Cincinnati will be the champion of the East and St Louis FC champions of the West. As for the playoffs, rebrand it to be as appealing as the UEFA Champions League. Occurs after the regular season as usual. The top 8 teams from each conference would qualify for the tournament. Each round played over two legs except the Final. Round 1: draw an Eastern team with a Western team Round 2-the final: Draw any team meets any team. For example: 2 teams from same conference can meet each other. All-Stars weekend: Stop playing with European teams. East vs. West. The team that win will have their regular season champion host the Post season tournament final.
30 year football fan here. I adopted MLS when I moved here in the US long time ago. One thing I love about MLS is it's unpredictability. Anyone can win the league and I love that. I find it boring when only a couple of clubs wins the league each year. Also, I love how MLS league table moves so quick each week. What MLS lacks in the pro/rel drama, they make up for it in the middle of the table of the push for the playoffs. I think the MLS is fine just the way it is for now. Ones the league mature some more, then a pro/rel can be introduced.
Good video, and you have some valid points, but I disagree with your geography argument. I'll use baseball to illustrate why. When the Giants and Dodgers moved from New York to San Francisco and Los Angeles respectively, for a number of seasons, only two of the 10 National League teams were in the Mountain or Pacific Time zones. The other teams were in Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Milwaukee (Braves), Chicago, Cincinnati, St. Louis, Houston and eventually New York (Mets). Yet, the league was still able to maintain a balanced schedule for a number of seasons. When the Los Angeles Angels joined in 1961, they were the only American League team west of the Central Time zone and that remained the case for a number of years. The other American League teams were in Boston, New York, Baltimore, Washington, Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago, Minneapolis and Kansas City. Yet the AL somehow still managed to maintain a balanced schedule for a number of seasons. Bear in mind that planes back then were slower than today and yet both leagues managed to make this work.
Ditto. Brazil has 4 divisions and it's just as big as the United States. I've heard that argument before, but honestly, if we can make it down there and still compete in the Libertadores, MLS clubs should definitely be able to do the same. It's an opportunity to let lower division clubs to ascend and also reveal great talent within the league. Many great Brazilian players playing in the Champions League came from the lower divisions.
Russia has most of the teams concentrated in one area of the country. China is similar, but China is also dealing with a bunch of issues. They've been expanding the league since inception and have had discussions to consolidate into a European Super League type entity. It appears China is having an issue with teams folding.
@@YankReport sorry just seen this comment. Do you think having pro/rel makes a league more competitive? IMO it doesn’t because it creates an imbalance for the top teams to realistically (because they have the finances) have a chance to win the league while the middle and bottom teams have to survive the threat of relegation. With the exception of Premier League, the other European leagues have one or a few teams win their domestic league every year. Pro/rel hasn’t helped Bundesliga because Bayern Munich always wins. Curious to know your opinion.
Pro/rel as a whole is a great format, but only under a specific set of circumstances: 1. Every team is an actual "club" that's a fully independent entity unto itself and completely self-sustaining... 2. Soccer (or whichever sport you want to apply pro/rel to) must be the undisputed most popular, most money-generating sport of that country... The U.S. doesn't meet these 2 requirements, as MLS teams are not independent clubs, but paid franchises which *cannot* even exist anyplace else *but* in MLS (which is the top league)... MLS teams aren't self-sustaining either... because being that they are paid franchises, it also means all MLS teams are financially bound to each other and in effect, all form a singular financial entity. And of course, soccer is far from being the most popular sport here... it's gaining ground, but still not close to being at the top. The biggest factor is really the sports culture... professional sports leagues in the U.S. live and die for the post-season playoffs, whereas other countries live and die for a basic ranking (they do have "playoffs", but only between teams of other countries at that point). What ultimately makes a league "competitive" has more to do with other factors than using pro/rel or the US playoff system... every country has to use whatever system has been proven to work best within its own boundaries.
Closest thing to Pro-Rel in MLS would be what happened to Tampa Mutiny, Miami Fusion, Chivas USA (getting deleted from existence)... and San Jose/Houston (ownership choosing to relocate to a new city).
I tend to agree that a closed system is a more sustainable model than pro-rel, though it's also true that pro-rel leagues have way more drama and competition at the bottom of the table than American leagues. I tend to reject the idea that MLS 'needs' pro-rel.
@@YankReport I truly don't see the point to Pro-Rel, not for us in the U.S. (1) We don't have 100 year old Clubs who dream of one day playing in the 1st Division (2) For our League to have a chance at growing among the other Sports leagues, we have to rely on Strong markets, build brands, Relegation inhibits that growth (3) It DEPRESSING to see some of these teams in other leagues fighting to not get Relegated. Culturally, the very notion is off-putting.
hear me out. let’s say we have do it like south american leagues but separated into west and east. for example, top teams of the western conference see who will make the cup final, and the bottom teams will be in the western conference relegation playoff final. reduces travel, has pro/rel, incorporates an aspect of the super bowl or nba finals. -American leeds united and ac milan supporter
The lower divisions being able to pay for travel isn't a good point just like in Europe the promoted team now get access to a bigger cut of all TV and marketing deals so they get more money in their operating budgets
I guarantee they’re not getting as much as American teams, In America all teams no matter how good or bad they are gets equal share of the guaranteed money every year + American sports leagues have player unions.
Personally, I know that my opinion is not going to be a popular one… I think MLS should operate like MLB and have affiliations between MLS and USL we’re players move up and down the tiers, not the team. This allows smaller markets to showcase star players moving up the tier after purchase or injury.
MLS could realistically expand all the way to 40 teams...and still not do pro rel. They could just split the league in half (like baseballs american and national league) balanced schedule in each league, they get their own trophy (NHL has their own specialty named trophys) then the MLS cup could be a tournament either year long like the carabao cup, maybe even have an end of the year soccer bowl throwback between the two league champs. I dont see pro rel or an open system happening.
It's the salaries, not pro/rel. Hypothetical (1): If next year MLS went to pro/rel, and the big 5 became closed systems, *and the player salaries of all those leagues remained as they are now*, European fans would continue watching their own leagues. Reverse Hypothetical (2): If MLS stayed closed (and salary capped), but increased the salaries to be the highest in the world [i.e. Messi, Ronaldo et al. all played for U.S. teams (in their primes)], global fans would start following MLS. Year by year the MLS gets better and has more viewership, the salaries creep up, more U.S. talent emerges, and the cycle continues. The MLS could end up a stable league with comparable quality to the big 5 one day. There's certainly a large enough U.S./Canadian population to support it.
@@YankReport Central American leagues have Pro/Rel, are they improving or are they better than MLS? South American leagues also have Pro/Rel, besides Brazil and Argentina, are those leagues improving or becoming world beaters? Pro/Rel doesn't help in anything
What if they use promotion and relegation on the USL (U.S. Second division) and lower divisions. Then the champion of the 2nd division team can get financial help from investors and promote them. I know this idea has a lot of setbacks too but im just throwing it out there.
Pro/Rel between the USL leagues is something that's been discussed a lot. Unfortunately the logistics issues in MLS are compounded when you move down the pyramid as money is much tighter. Maintaining reasonable travel distances is very important.
Pro/rel can be improved upon and made compatible with the North American sports model. If by pro/rel we mean having a schedule based upon where one was in the standings from the previous year. The NFL does this by having 2 games per year against teams that finished in the same position in their division. The European model has a hard scheduling divide between the tiers. But you don't have to do things that way. People should open their minds to different ways of doing things.
@@Simon-tc1mc Beitrag des Even the Vatican, has its own national league of gentlemen´s association soccer! The 17 teams play in the Italian part of Rome. The Vatican Football Association is no member in UEFA, nor FIFA.
1- necesitan generar nuevos equipos que jueguen en ligas de ascenso. 2- necesitan que el campeonato de primera tengas descensos y ascensos, además de jugar promociones entre equipos de primera división y segunda. 3- necesitan hacer la liga regular para los equipos de primera y la copa de EEUU en paralelo con único partido entre las dos divisiones. 4- necesitan poner un límite de extranjeros dentro de cada plantel para que más jugadores jóvenes puedan nutrirse de experiencia con los extranjeros. 5- necesitan tener divisiones inferiores para foguear a sus futuras estrellas deportivas. 6- necesitan competir a todo campeonato internacional o copa que exista a nivel clubes. 7- necesitan impulsar el fútbol cambiando las siglas mls a mlf, en el resto del mundo es fútbol, no soccer.
@@viniciusmartinsmarcelino2719 la única verdad es la realidad. El dinero que se necesita aún no está disponible y los atletas que tanto dices no han ganado nada. Si quieren seguir jugando la serie mundial, ese es su problema. Lo importante es la competencia y entender que en el deporte como en la vida si uno es el peor se va al descenso. Raro que en EEUU no tengan ese concepto. Si solo quieren hacer negocios que se queden como están. Yo vivo en argentina, si vieras los jugadores que se quieren salvar jugando al fútbol por qué de otra cosa se morirían de hambre. No importa el club, puede ser de primera división o de la liga más chiquita que exista. Nadie se conforma con lo que tiene y quiere ganar siempre. Eso creo que en EEUU lo entienden bien. Esos valores, de competencia, de lucha y de superación se dan en un país destruido y decadente que no posee ningún premio para el mejor, no hablar en términos económicos e igualmente salen jugadores con calidad y con mística, que es una palabra como de los magos o de nación atrasada, pero la realidad es que el empuje y el fogueo que le genera al jugado de forma mental ayuda a progresar en un medio cada vez más desfavorable. El dinero no hace campeones, el dinero los compra, lo que los hace campeones es la competencia. Ahí está el eje central de todo atleta. Se corren los límites del cuerpo y de la mente y se encuentran destinos nuevos. Suena a basura de autosuperación y eso, pero la realidad es que funciona en el alto rendimiento del fútbol. En conclusión, la competencia, las recompensas y los castigos y el trabajo físico y mental hacen a los jugadores grandes jugadores. Eso creo yo.
Europe will give up on pro/rel before ever the MLS adopts it. I've been saying this for a decade now, but maybe with things like the possible merger of the Dutch and Belgian leagues and the looming specter of the Euro Super league people will start to believe me. Pro/Rel has been as disaster for European soccer over the last 40 years. No one in their right mind would want to replicate it.
I tend to agree with you, but that is not a very popular opinion on the internet. Europe is having to look at itself in the mirror right now as they've allowed things to get out of hand.
Tbh, given how tiny both Belgium and the Netherlands are it is just a logical step, but I fail to see what that has to do with pro/rel. And what exactly is the desaster for European soccer caused by pro/rel? Name some examples, I'll wait. Also claiming that Europe or the rest of the world will give up on pro/rel is just plain out delusional. And for the Euro Super League, well we all know how that one ended.
@@GeorgHaeder All you have to do is look at the finances of European soccer over the last 30-40 years to see just how bad pro/rel has been just about everywhere. The first consequence of pro/rel is that even large and successful clubs frequently enter administration owing to bankruptcy. In the last 15 years, 25 prominent English soccer clubs entered bankruptcy as a direct result of the dysfunctional profit/loss cycles created by pro/rel - including some that in that period had been in the Premier League. Pro/rel creates a system where it requires more money to keep soccer as you know it going than the system collectively takes in. Someone is always going bankrupt somewhere. What keeps the English soccer pyramid going increasingly is pulling in foreign investors from places like the UAE, USA and Thailand. Without that, the whole Premier League might have gone bankrupt despite its gross revenue and global reach. But the problem with increasingly pulling in outside investors is that at some point you are going to run out of rich playboys and monarchs that look at owning a team like a hobby and don't care how many millions they lose, and you are going to find yourself controlled by investors that actually expect a reasonable rate of return on the investment - something that right now they aren't getting. The other problem with Pro/Rel is that it is a system that causes the rich to get richer while the poor get poorer. If you look at the present state of league finances across all European domestic leagues and compare that to say 1970 or 1980, you'll find a huge disparity has grown up between the largest programs and the smaller ones that are supposed to be providing for competition in a competitive league that doesn't have a fixed and predictable outcome. Outside investment in the EPL somewhat hides this disparity in England, but if you look at Switzerland, Austria, Portugal, Greece, or even large leagues Italy or France you'll find that the leaders in those leagues have 30 times or more revenue than the teams expected to play them. The result is largely predictable results in non-competitive games where the same teams wins 9 years in 10, or the same 2-4 teams have won every year for decades. Even the Bundesliga, which by far has the best finances in Europe can't run a league that is both profitable and competitive using Pro/Rel. Bayern Munich strolls to a title almost every year. This is inherent to Pro/Rel and even its defenders generally (unwittingly) prove it by declaring that in a "proper league" a team that loses ought to be "punished". But the effect of that punishment is not what they predict in making the league more competitive. On the contrary it makes it far less. Increased risk in investment doesn't lead to more investment, which all but the economically illiterate realize. This is something the EPL is keenly aware of. To maximize revenue they have to be able to telecast the down table games with as much interest as the few games per season that occur between the 'big 6'. To do that has involved becoming increasingly 'American' in their league structure, with collective profit sharing, parachute payments to mitigate the punishment of being relegated and so forth. Hence the continuing desire for investors to have a largely closed Super League. You have dodged the bullet this round, but the fundamental disconnect between the fans who demand their traditional amateur inspired league structures and the owners who are trying to manage an actual professional club as a business will continue. Eventually the players are going to side with the owners, because the owners plan will involve not cutting their salaries while playing fewer games than the ridiculous multi-league schedule the current structure demands. When that happens, neither FIFA nor the fans will have much of a say in the matter, because fans will watch the biggest teams with the players playing each other even if the format isn't traditional.
@@celebrim1 I seee your points and I understand where you coming from but I'm still not convinced that a european version of the MSL is the right way. TBH, I can understand the english fans, they see people like the Glazers (owners of Man U) and that Yankee who owns Liverpool (sorry his name eludes me right now) and a few others who are just in for the bucks, while not doing much for the sport itself. Yes you're right Bayern München is the German title holder since 2011, true, and still they and Borussia Dortmund said right of the bat that they do not want to have anything to do with the European MSL. I'm convinced if all the FA's of Europe would get together and do some serious brain work (yeah, I know) there could be a middle ground between the situation right now and the blatant amercanisation of European Football. A eruope wide 50+1 rule would be a nice start, but that's just my oppinion. Also noteworthy is that exactly the clubs who were considered for the Euro-MSL are the clubs who have the most overspending and in case of the Spanish and Italian clubs also the most debt caused by said overspending while clubs like Ajax Amsterdam or PSG weren't even asked. Sure on the long term a Euro-MSL most likely can't be avoided, if that will be economically feasible on the long run, I really don't know. I'll be honest, I rather go and watch my Eintracht Frankfurt play an amateur team in a friendly, or even E-Sports games, than watch the scousers play Barca every few weeks (not that I would watch to begin with as I don't give a fuck about both of them). Sure, the Euro-MSL aims at their clubs worldwide fanbases and the money from advertising and the tele stations, they don't give a flying fuck about stadium attendance, I get that, whether the world wide fanbase want to see the same games at the tele year in year out or not remains to be seen. The biggest problem I see is that a Euro-MSL will have an entry fee in the hundreds of million of Euro range for clubs who do want to enter said league. On one side this limits entrance only to a select few clubs europe wide and even then the ESL can pick those who'll be the least competitive clubs out of the select few to enter as a newmember. Basically canonfodder for Barca, Liverpool, The Stamford Bridge wankers and the rest. Actually the planned ESL is even more elitist than the EPL, Bundesliga, Serie A and so on ever were.
brazil we have 20 teams in A, B and C and then D with amauters, 4 demoted 4 promoted in each one, i guess is better for the usa that way since we are amost the same size :P
@@YankReport Hope they don’t do it. I know MLS teams are essentially franchises, but moving around just doesn’t sit well with me. One thing for a young club, but not established ones
Yes, ask any old San Jose Earthquakes fan. Around 2005 Don Garber decided to allow the team owner to relocate the franchise to Houston instead of finding a local entity to buy the club. Our own Wimbledon clusterfnck. check the Wiki pages for both clubs. Garber knew he was p1ssing off San Jose fans (but didn't care) so MLS insisted that the Houston franchise could not claim titles won while in San Jose. How can the Earthquakes be MLS Cup champions in 2001 and 2003 and Supporters Shield Champions in 2005 when the franchise wasn't created until 2008? Complete joke. So now San Jose is cursed. In 15 years they've only won the supporters shield in 2012. They have sucked for the past 10 years. Their biggest claim to fame: we have the biggest bar west of the Mississippi.
Pro/rel barely works in Mexico and football is everything to them. At this time there are only 2 clubs in their second tier that would be eligible to move up if they earned it on the field, and the top tier has a multiple-team ownership situation to sort out. Meanwhile MLS has an extra 11, soon to be 12 teams in their top flight. There's much greater parity, with a greater percentage of the league being very good and a small percentage being exponentially worse than the front runners. And at the second tier, there is no shortage of teams that can move up if they can come up with hundreds of millions of dollars in financial backing. This isn't because the US and Canada love their domestic leagues that much more. It's because our system is very well put together, and I seriously doubt that we could get better results than Liga MX if we did exactly what Liga MX is doing while having less than half of the support. We got creative. We did something different that works better for us in our unique situation. We're finally getting results on the field.
@r2dad282 Correct, no one Is holding up Liga MX as the exemplar. The Problem is that too many people readily assume that the US will obviously become The exemplary in very short order if it has a league system that implements pro/rel. With no more than 20 clubs in the top flight, probably. And the reality is, if we did have that, it won't surpass the Prem. It probably wouldn't surpass Liga MX. Liga MX is not the global exemplar, but it should be held up as a best case scenario in our own hemisphere that still has a lot of flaws and definitely falls short of what we want, and of what we actually Can have without pro/rel.
Im always railing against the MLS monopoly, but in reality we need USSF to establish a proper soccer pyramid FIRST that rationalizes the lower leagues so that they can then support pro/rel. I mean, having a top tier of 20 and a lower tier of 20 MLS teams is a step in the right direction, but at the end of the day that revised structure has to be connected to the leagues/clubs below to enable pro/rel to really function properly. MLS can't support it now, but USSF refuses to do anything to form a functioning pyramid.@@mmmcounts
@@r2dad282 MLS is simply doing what would be perfectly logical to for an American sports league... "lower league" teams exist only to serve smaller markets and to provide development/support to major league teams - that's it. The only "movement" between tiers should be players and coaches (as their individual performances merit at the time)... not entire teams.
@davepazz580 Who are you to decide that smaller markets don't deserve a shot at the big time? Also, I don't trust American coaches as far as I can throw them. Have you been to a "tryout" at any level? They're arbitrary to say the least; Billie Bean had harsher words. The job of MLS is to corral and control talent so they can't be free agents until after their first 6 year contract; the salary cap is what ensures the billionaires ROI. Pro/rel rewards small towns for their support and loyalty. How loyal do you suppose these fans are to the management that fncked them in the vrse: st Louis rams, Houston oilers, Oakland raiders, LA raiders, Baltimore colts, Cleveland browns, SJ earthquakes, Chivas, San Diego Chargers and dozens more.
Okay, I was 100% in favor of Pro/Rel until I heard you explain it. The REASON I wanted Pro/Rel was because of the BS play you get from teams that are "out of race". For example, this year, the play in the Leeds United final season game was AMAZING since they avoided relegation with literally 2 minutes left in the game. It was simply fantastic. However, now we move to MLS and my home team is Chicago Fire...This year...They're dead last in the Supporters Cup race right now. It's early so they're not "out of it" yet BUT if they do, I feel the play will suffer because they have nothing to play for. Why, because ALL of our Division 1 sports do this. NFL? Out of the playoffs, "play the 3rd string and please don't win so we can get a better draft position. " It's garbage, and IMHO, a middle finger to fans. I thought the ONLY solution would be Pro/Rel... BUT...Your information on geographical considerations never popped into my brain. You're right. Pro / Rel wouldn't be as simple as we all think. I mean, most of the league has comparable features. Supporters Cup = PL Champion, MLS Cup = FA Cup (Sort of) MLS Cup and Supporters Cup = Invite to CONCACAF which would be = UEFA Cup... So, in theory we have many of the same types of battles and there IS something to play for other than just the "superbowl" of Soccer. What we in the US have to figure out is HOW do we keep teams in the fight when they're on the bottom? Honestly, this needs to happen in all of our pro-level sports. MLS, NFL, MLB, NHL and NBA. Maybe we could go with Conference Level Pro/Rel? I don't know, but I hope they can figure it out.
I appreciate the comment, Dave. One thing to consider... while pro/rel does produce excitement at the bottom of the table, playoff systems like the NFL and NBA produce excitement in the middle of the table for teams looking to make the playoffs. Then there's excitement for essentially half the league as the playoffs begin. In Pro/Rel, you theoretically get excitement at the top and bottom of the table, though in reality there are often outliers at the very top and very bottom of the table. A good example would be Bayern and Furth in the Bundesliga this year. So in my mind both systems produce excitement, it's just about where in the table that excitement is distributed. With Pro/Rel you get a Leeds squad battling out of relegation. With Playoffs you get an underdog making a run. Just different.
@@YankReport Very interesting perspective. I 'd have to agree with you again. I will say that I do really like the MLS' two champions in one league system. (MLS Cup and Supporters Cup) Really, if you think about it, we do have some of the same battles as all teams are fighting for at least the top 7 spot of their conference to get into the "MLS Cup". While we have the general competition of the Supporters Cup. To me it feels like PL Championship (Supporters Cup) and the MLS Cup(as the FA Cup) and the CONCACAF championship for UEFA Championship. So, the more I look at the structures...The more similar they appear. Though, I guess I always looked at Pro/Rel as a way for Team Joe Blow to get to the top without already being a billionaire. Meaning, anyone really has a shot to go pro. The MLS...There is no chance. You MUST be a wealthy team to get in.
To paraphrase Ian Malcolm: "Your Fans Were So Preoccupied With Whether Or Not They Could, They Didn’t Stop To Think If They Should.” I really don't see promotion & relegation as something needed, or even advantageous. Just because European soccer is more established, does not mean we need to adopt everything done by the European leagues.
I've followed professional soccer in North America since right after the 1966 World Cup and have seen so many clubs come and go, entire leagues come and go. That the lower level of professional ball on a continental scale has still not established itself is reason enough to think this is a pipe dream and the idea that our top league was established as a single entity and that nobody involved in it has ANY reason to want to move to aPro/Rel system is reason enough to scoff at this nonsense... it simply isn't something that any establish money person wants to see, there is no pressure for it coming from the USSF or FIFA, the players aren't pushing it either... so who in their right mind thinks this is actually ever gonna happen? This will remain a pipe dream supported by people who have virtually no skin in the game fooling themselves about things they just wish would happen... no some things say like forging closer ties to CONMEBOL and eventually like Mexico taking part in Copa America or Copa Libertadores I can see happening but Pro/rel just is not something that is ever gonna happen here. Hell this recent little fling with the idea of establishing a European Super League is argument enough that even where Pro/Rel is well established the money people hate it and would trash it if they could.
The biggest issue is league restructuring. Convincing a bunch of obscenely rich guys to share resources and risk with a bunch of merely filthy rich guys... tough ask. I once had a conversation with a man who is, if not a billionaire, very nearly a billionaire. The thought that keeps him awake at night is not becoming poor... it's being less rich. For that reason, I believe that any potential pro/rel system would have to be more comprehensive than wins, draws, and losses. It would have to include measures of financial stability and club commitment to communities. Examples: What does the balance sheet look like? How comprehensive is the club's academy? Does the club have a pitch of its own, or do they play in a minor league baseball park? What is the stadium capacity, and what is the average attendance? What is the level of commitment and participation of supporter groups? What is the general level of community engagement? Finally, make promotion/relegation contingent upon a three year rolling evaluation. In other words, there is promotion and relegation every year, but it's based upon the previous three year's metrics. Anyone can have a single bad year. Anyone can catch lightning in a bottle. But it takes futility to be on a three year slide, just as it takes excellence to sustain three years of winning, growth, and community engagement. Finally, in the issue of infrastructure, I say that it depends on what constitutes infrastructure. To my mind, the basis is simple... existing professional clubs in cities with populations sufficient to sustain attendance figures of 15,000-30,000. There are currently ~ 90 professional clubs in the US. Most of them are in cities of 250,000 or greater. Let's say that 75 of them could, with good marketing, pull off that 15,000 attendance figure... That's sound infrastructure for a 3 league, pro-rel pyramid. To the haters who say that it's impossible, I say nonsense. It is unlikely. But not because it's difficult. The only hurdle that matters is convincing obscenely rich men that the financial security blanket they deny to working people, should be denied to them, as well. In other words, perform, or hit the road.
Your system wouldn’t work in MLS for two reasons…in their 26 year existence, The MLS has had 15 new Champions, so by your system how do you determine who gets relegated in a league that competitive? #2 Every MLS team is located in a major American city who majority of them have new soccer specific stadiums, to guarantee sellouts also MLS attendance has actually doubled by 57% over the last 10 years
@@fivehundrediq5212 No matter how competitive and balanced, there will always be 2-3 teams which do the worst over any period of time. Calculations of point totals are computed as they are at present in every league in the world. The idea of adding the financial component isn't a true necessity from a footballing perspective. But from a league perspective, owners have a vested interest in the financial contributions and viability of the other owners. Some cybernerd can gin up an algorithm which factors in both club competitiveness as well as financial health/commitment. It's doable. It makes great soccer sense. It actually makes great business sense - unless you own a club which both loses AND fails to carry the financial water.... in which case, take the bus and go back to the kiddie table.
Yeah even of they eventually do add it. It won't be exactly the same as in Europe. It won't be 3 teams going down/up at a time. MLS is all about stability so they would utilize pro/rel in the most stable way possible. Most likely would be 1 team going down/up every 3 years. Or something along those lines. It could also be a point based system where teams finishing last get -points and after getting so many they would be relegated. Basically MLS higher ups and team owners would only be willing to do it if it gave them more of a chance to avoid being relegated. Plus a big problem is that MLS makes most of its money from expansion. That is just not sustainable in the long term. It can't just keep expanding indefinitely. So they need to find a different way to make money. Gate receipts/merch are only so much. It seems MLS is really betting on being able to consistently sell on players for big fees and that could work. But in the end what is gonna be needed is TV money. If MLS becomes dependent on TV money then pro/rel would have to be implemented to keep rating high. That is the only way they would ever do it.
You bring up some good points. I didn't really get into it in this video, but MLS is not exactly out of the woods yet as far as revenue and the upcoming TV contract negotiations are incredibly important.
I think it would be much more realistic and viable for the MLS to just form a MLS 2 once they have enough teams (I mean they already have way too much teams compared to European leagues). That would enable them to promote both leagues centrally and start from scratch with relatively high publicity for the second tier as the teams in it would all have been able to grow in the MLS. My proposal would be to just found MLS 2 with, say, the season 2030 and have the lower half of each 2029 (or to maybe be a bit fairer, average positions from 2027-29) conference get relegated, keeping the same conference structure for each league. Now, I do actually favor a league as an independent entity to the clubs, but I just don't think that's realistic to happen anytime soon.
If we already have a "Major League Soccer" why on Earth would we need a second? It would be like implying one isn't really "Major" which would defeat the purpose of the name...
If you want soccer to work in the United States, you have to present it in a way American fans are used to. MLS is modeled after the NFL, not European football leagues.
@Pissed Bob Ross that’s not what I’m saying and you missed the point. All professional sports leagues in North America rather it be NBA, NFL, MLB or NHL are structured the way MLS is structured. It’s what North American fans are used to and if you want it to work in North America, you have to present it in a way fans already understand. If MLS would’ve debuted their first year with just a table, no playoffs and pro/rel like European leagues, it wouldn’t have had a chance and folded.
What MLS needs to do is create 4 additional spots in MLS for the 2nd division league (USL 1) to join in. 2 for the eastern conference and 2 for the western conference. That is what the US Euro owners tried to do with the European Super League and it would apply better to the MLS current structure anyways. Eventually they will have to transition to a full Promotion/Relegation structure.
Is there enough people playing football for such a model. The relegation system only works till a critical mass has been reached. MLS is almost like an incubator, without which the teams will financially fail. If anyone can adopt the the relegation system, it has to be MLB or NBA.
I think the only way MLS allow promotion and relegation is the fact they include a huge amount of teams like 30 at least and themselves divide the same league between 15 for one division and 15 for second so maybe is the only way they can still protecting their franchise interests
I don't think there should be pro/rel in MLS. The thing I enjoy about the MLS is it has a unique way of doing things, it's a novelty coming from European football. I love the American style names, tailgating, drafts etc. It feels like the MLS is just trying to copy the EPL now which I think is a mistake because it will only draw unfavorable comparison. The EPL system (including pro/rel) ultimately results in a few very rich clubs dominating, what I love about the MLS is there is parity in the league. Sure you could have say galaxy and DC being the Man U and Chelsea of the MLS, winning everything, getting the money, getting the best players, and winning again, but to me that just gets boring. For even worse examples look at Germany, Italy or France, with just one team dominating. So I suppose it's a matter of taste, do you want a few great teams and a lot of mediocre ones, or do you prefer a league of good teams where it's more open ended and less predictable? Me I like the latter, I find it more exciting, but again it's probably a matter of taste.
That's true. The idea that your home team is just never going to be in position to compete for championships seems a bit uncompetitive. But many Europeans have said the closed system is uncompetitive.
I've heard that too, this trope that teams won't want to win because they won't get relegated. Maybe the manager might consider that, but I doubt any player will want to lose, for the sake of their own competitive nature, rivalry, their career, and not to mention the fans. Anyway the ESL drama has been good because it has stirred up a much needed discussion about the game and the imbalance between teams.
I just kinda dont see what pro/rel adds to the league other than just trying to be more European. Maybe its just my American sports brain talking but I've never really understood why European football purposely decreases parity in their leagues and in doing so widens the gap between bad teams and good teams. I know pro/rel system would make games between the teams near the bottom and maybe increase revenue for those games.
One of the big arguments is that MLS clubs can stagnate as losing is not really penalized. It's also true that if your MLS team is not in Playoff contention there's no real reason to pay attention. Both sides have their advantages and disadvantages.
@@YankReport I could see if a team finishes in the bottom 3 for three years straight, not due to poor injury luck, but that there's evidence of bad ownership practices (team salaries below the cap, no DP's, won't fire coach, internal corruption... something like that), the league ownership could vote to give them 2 seasons to right the ship or leave the league. Would we still have the Detroit Lions if the NFL did that?
@@YankReport The problem with the argument is that it is based on the theory, and I might even say the propaganda, on what Pro/Rel does for a league. The problem with the theory is there is pretty much no evidence that the "penalty" does anything favorable for the European domestic leagues. In practice, a club either has the money to invest or it doesn't. If it tries to invest money it doesn't have, the penalty ensures that in the long run this guarantees bankruptcy. And if the club is thrifty and responsible, the penalty ensures it's finances are unpredictable and erratic. Whatever the theory is, the result everywhere in Europe has been a program where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, resulting in a complete lack of competition where 2-4 teams are competitive and the rest exist only to channel money (often borrowed money) upward to the big clubs. Meanwhile, 25 English pro teams - including some that competed at the Premiere level - have gone bankrupt in the last 10 years alone. The situation got so bad that even the EPL realized it couldn't keep doing it that way, because the fans were yawning when the last time Small Town FC beat Big City United was 60 years ago before TV contracts, so they introduced profit sharing agreements and "parachute payments" to teams being relegated to take some of the sting out of it. The result has been only marginally successful. While naïve fans might point to the rise of Manchester City or Leicester City as proof of a high level of competition in the EPL, the truth is that if you look at both teams they didn't actually come out of nowhere. They were purchased at bargain basement prices by foreign investors who saw them as viable large market teams that had potential return on investment. "Cinderella" Leichester City when it did its unprecedented run was basically as well funded as the Big Six teams owing to investment from Thailand. Thus what really makes the EPL "competitive" (depending on what you mean by that word) is that there are plenty of Princes out there for whom investing in a soccer team is like investing in race horses. The point is that it is a rich person's hobby, and not to make money. That however is going to come to an end. Investors are getting tired of losing money on some of the biggest brands on the planet, and they are going to demand soccer work more like a business. That means pro/rel is doomed even in Europe. If you want to see what Euro stagnation looks like, take a look at Everton. Or take a look at the entire Bundesliga.
@@YankReport Exactly, the closed leagues are more dynamic and more competitive. Pro/Rel can only exist in a single sport nation where that professional sport represents the only sporting entertainment product available. In a nation like the USA or Australia, if you had a sports league one by Bayern Munich every year, people would just change the channel and watch another sport.
Despite its merits, there is tremendous headwind in US for pro/rel. Can something easier be instituted to incentivize clubs to perform? Is "making the playoffs" motivation enough? Could a lot more money from an external tourney be given to top regular season teams? Say a much more lucrative concacaf. A crazy thought, could the playoffs actually be this said external separate tourney that occurs intermittently over the following season? Puts more emphasis on Supports Shield...
Yeah you're right. Others mentioned a variant... Which is split mls in east and west (say 20 clubs each side), with top 4 on each side playing for a super cup (likes Champions League). 5-8 each could play for a lower cup as well (Europa League)
@@szscottb I think there is going to be an MLS/Liga MX super cup at some point. It just makes too much sense for it not to happen. MLS needs Liga MX brand recognition and Liga MX needs MLS' financial stability.
The new league MLS announced that will compete with USL seems a nod to the way future, where there is a team in a bazillion US towns that could play into top league
If, as some people say, involved parties in Europe are starting to look in the mirror and review the future of Pro/rel, such as the big clubs did when they tried to allow the Super League to make more safe money, then is it worth incorporating Pro/rel here at all, which could be slowly trending downwards in the mind of wealthy Europeans involved? The common people are powerful, but how long can these clubs cater to their desire to preserve history, tradition, and the decidedly "best way" to grow the sport, over the basic need for more money just to continue on? We can't blindly introduce pro/rel here, much less when there is uncertainty as to its future decades down the line.
It's a valid question. Especially as the game grows more global and the dependence on foreign TV money continues to increase. The foreign markets have no connection with the non-marquee teams and the gap continues to grow.
Why can't the MLS have its own culture, why are US soccer fans always chasing European models? It makes the league unique. Leagues in South America have their own quirks and styles different from Europe as well.
This model isn’t European but is literally universally used. America & India are the only major countries without pro/rel with India changing that soon also
I think you got the perspective wrong. You are watching this from the top teams prospective. But I think you should watch this from bottom up. Adapting the europe league system to the us this would mean that there is: A league for every district where the best teams get promoted to the: 2. state league (e.g. called "texas 2. league") from where they get promoted to the: 1. state league (e.g. called "texas 1. league" equivalent to the Premier League or the bundesliga) And then only the winners of the 50 different state leagues would be playing a tournament each year called the "American Champinions league" where the best team of the US is determined. Maybe there should be a qualification round in between for the different regions (eg. north west, north east, ...) to reduce travel times, but these are only minor ajustments. So as long as you dont win your state league, you will only play at a state level and you dont have to travel to the other side of the continent. And all of this has to grow from the bottom up. So the regional (some of them are amateurs) teams have to organize themselves to create this district leagues which have promotion/relegation. And as they will not be able to play in the existing leagues (like MLS) they will figure out how to find out who is the best among themself. If this happens, I guarantee that after some years they will stomp the MLS into obscurity.
Because they are the ones that generate the most money for the sport in the country here and now.. You don't see MLB being dictated by what minor league MLB teams want or need... it's the other way around (as it should be).
@@davepazz580 ok, this way the us will never be good in soccer. Its not about "generating the most money" but to generate a infrastructure which will garantee the best teams to win. There should be no save space for any team. For me its very strange that the us - where capitalism is almost a cult - in sports always creates these non-competative leagues.
Infrastructure for proper player development is very necessary I agree... but I don't think that is an issue having to do with the US lower-leagues. MLS announced they will create it's *own* side league specifically for player development (as opposed to having their developmental teams play in the NASL and USL). Not sure what you meant by "always creates these non-competitive leagues"... how exactly are they not competitive?
Look, I’m Brazilian and I’m going to give my opinion: the USA problem that I see in relation to football or ''soccer'', are two, the lack of competitiveness, because without relegation, you have only a few important games, the playoffs and finals. If the fifth place is competing for a place with the fourth, but the fourth will play against the last placed, the last one does not care about the game, he has nothing to lose. but when you have the risk of falling, maybe your salary/sponsorship will be cut, you have a lot more at risk, this stimulates competition, so it will be a more difficult game, because even if he is the last placed, he will give life in the game...and problem two is money, apparently you don’t have that for fear of breaking the market, "if his team goes down he will stop investing" maybe... but there will also be people investing in small teams to reach the major leagues, more sponsorships, that way it may even help the sport's growth in the country, wouldn't it be nice if you had a team from your small town competing for real? American teams don't know how to play to get a draw, you can clearly see with the World Cup qualifiers in 2018, this is because they have nothing to lose with the defeat, so it's "okay" and as for this excuse of distance, it is bullshit, stop looking at the European league, and look at the South American for example, or even just the Brazilian one, we are a huge country too and with more travel difficulties, less money and we are drastically better... as long as you do not do this you will be fated to always fight for just a place in some championship and nothing more ------ in Brazil we have the league A (20 teams) B (20 teams) C (20 teams) and D (amauter - alot of teams) each division 4 get demoted and 4 get promoted
Hey Pedro! I actually looked at the Brazilian league to see how they handled Pro/Rel b/c like you said Brazil is a huge country geographically. I noticed almost all the teams are on the East coast with the bulk of the teams in 3 cities. I don't know a ton about Brazil, but why aren't other parts of the country represented in the league? I also have read that Brazil has a huge tradition of state tournaments because traveling throughout the country was too difficult until recently. I think the regional tournament concept would be interesting in MLS.
I'm not too familiar with the Brazilian sports landscape. Does Brazil have leagues in other sports that are way more popular and have more money and are far more established? I think a lot of people outside the US tend to forget that soccer is less popular than the NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL, and College Football...
It would be very exciting but, considering the MLS owners priorities i'm still surprised they haven't copied the same tournament's scheme of some of the americans leagues like Mexico, i mean having 2 tournaments by year.
5:53 2 east teams go to the USL EAST 2 west TEAMS go to USL WEST easy, plus there is already a good 2nd (and almost 3rd tier) USL CHAMPIONISHP AND USL LEAGUE ONE
MLS should go continental (talk directly to FIFA and go after CONCACAF), merge Mexico's and Canada's football managements and allow USL to manage the sport domestically, under MLS standards. That's how MLS would actually become MAJOR.
Lets stay on planet earth here, Pro/Rel exists only because of the conditions that existed before the division system was founded, before then every single club could play anyone else, modern Division seven or Eight teams would play teams that would be the equivelent of the Premier league champion, simply because they were neighboring towns. England tried to get around this with the FA cup, but ultimately the division system was founded. this is very similar to the system of Pro/Rel the United States used in baseball in the 1860s and 1870s, but it was abandoned for a very simple reason. Small town team could not afford to travel, and this was also a time when baseball was something they did in the evenings, they would work their farms or jobs during the day. The existing monetary problems of Pro/Rel would only be worse in the United States. If a team based in Wichita managed to promote their way to the MLS it would more or less bankrupt itself. This is because the United States has a sharpe drop off in capacity of Sports markets once you get away from the 47 largest Cities/Metropoliton areas. Fortunately there is a much better solution, one that Baseball figured out nearly 60 years ago: the Tier system. The Teams do not change tiers. MLB teams remain MLB teams forever or until folding. Below the MLB is Triple A baseball, based in cities like St.Paul(the MLB club is in its twin city Minneapolis, but Minneapolis-St.Paul is an economic jugernaught among Mid West cities for its size) and Mid-Major cities like Toledo(OH), Des Moines, and more famously Durham NC. ABout half of the cities currently hosting a Triple-A team could in theory host an MLB team, but for Geographic and economic reasons do not(Interstingly many of these cities do host a MLS team, since MLS is more in favor of clustering the teams than the MLB). The other half of the cities definitely are too small a market for the MLB. The important thing about the tier system is that it directly addresses the distance issue, the MLB travels the entire breadth of the United States, but Triple A is divede into Two Leagues that are regional, while some travel into the other league and inter league play does happen, it is very limited. Below Triple-A is Double-A, which is hosted by a number off Minor cities and is made of three leagues of even smaller regions than Triple-A, instead of two leagues covering the entire country, Double-A only covers three reigons, Northeast, Southeast, and South Central United States, leaving roughly half the country without Double-A. There are 30 teams in the MLB, Triple A and Double A, and all three levels are owned by 30 distinct fanchises. The players in the leagues are promoted and relegated, not the teams, the players make the grind all the way to the MLB, and for a period of time in their career will bounce between tiers until they have reached their level of competence. Even further down is High A, and Low A Baseball, both also have 30 teams again tied to a MLB franchise. And further below is the Rookie League which primarily exists to evaluate and develope Rookie players, both Drafted and undrafted.
I think the bigger question should be "How can we make MLS more competitive and push teams and players more?" I agree that a Pro-Rel system will probably never happen for MLS, but maybe we could change the format (eg. Team with most points at end of season wins the trophy, so do away with playoffs) and maybe add some kind of incentive for teams near the bottom of the table to keep playing hard towards the end of the season. Also, extend the season length. MLS's season is short compared to most European leagues. There's too much off-time for these players and while they're taking their holiday, other players around the world are still playing games, making them much better players. MAybe MLS ould still keep the playoff system, but not for the MLS Cup, maybe for a secondary cup, as I feel the playoffs does not really reward the most consistent team of the season.
Playoffs do a terrible job of finding the best team, but they do create drama and solve the issue of forcing all 28 teams to travel across the entire country.
One argument in favor of Pro-Rel is that it keeps more fans interesting in the season, for longer. Well, in the U.S. and Mexico leahues, we have PLAYOFFS... which means MANY teams/fans remain interested for longer in the season. The "drama" of who will finish in last place isn't needed. So if you have no Playoffs and no Pro-Rel... that's the worst scenario.
Just don't do pro-reg for the wrong reasons. 1. Don't do it because the rest of the world does it 2. Don't do it based on some unsubstantiated claim of better player performance. 3. Don't do it on the basis of insecurity. Read #1 and #2.
@@fivehundrediq5212 I couldn't care less about Indian Cricket or British Association-Foottall. Whatever works there, works there... for the U.S., Pro-Rel is a silly notion, fruitless.
@@TickleMeElmo55 MLS should add Quarter breaks to the game (2 minutes max), before adding Pro-Rel. Increase ad revenue... help pay for even better players. Improve MLS that way.
Simple answer... so long as single entity rules... no it isn't. The idea that a club is limited in the amount of money they can spend and of just whole they can and can not sign how can you hold a team responsible for how it performed and hence be rewarded or punished by being relegated to a lower league. The reality is nobody in the league is itching to do any of this and while some fans call for it there is no push coming for change at all. Simply reality nobody who has ponied up millions of dollars to enter the league just to see some minor league club spending a fraction to get into the league, they simply are not willing to risk losing their place. Clearly the model will be more akin to Baseball's minor league system, i.e. having a development league. So signing a player and loaning him out to a USL club, but again the single entity aspect limits this as well. The reality is that financially a minor club moving "up" would have to come up with a much greater budget and likely the only way that could occur is to sell some of the "equity" of said club meaning the "owners" losing some or all of the control of their own club in the process. The smaller club would need to find a larger place to play and that means spending more to rent somebody else's facilities and very likely having little or no control of the food service involved as the sub Tennant. The travel costs also would increase, think of moving at least three dozen people or more by plane for each and every match. Their budget would require millions for transportation of their staff and equipment and likely at least at first little or no sponsorship to lessen costs. Now reverse this scenario for the top tier side all of a sudden facing having to play in some regional minor league. They already have a stadium agreement that they can't break, yet now very likely they have fewer die hard fans going through the turnstiles paying to see lesser sides so a loss in revenue, whatever TV contract they had before as a top club is now gone so more Revenue loss, whatever player contracts they had still are in effect so costs don't drop and there is no guarantee that they make it back to the big time. Look at how far say Nottingham Forrest has fallen from it's peak in the late 70s to where it is now... yes it still has the same name but it simply is a shadow of it's former self, and this is in a country that has a truly deep history of supporting the club system in Europe. This recent flirtation with a European Super League shows how even the established clubs of Western Europe are loth to risk Promotion and Relegation as a business model. Do you seriously think anyone in MLS would ever risk their investment over something like this? I for one have heard this talk from people who have no financial skin in the game for years and have to laugh at anyone thinking it ever will be embraced here by any of the money people... ever. As it is our best and brightest players have been avoiding signing to play here instead going for the brass ring in Western Europe and I don't see that changing. So long as the pay scale and level of competition is substantially higher signing at a young age overseas the future McKinnies and Sargents and Pulisic's are just not going to be here in the first place and the idea that their MLS side could go "down" and risk going out of business entirely is never going to be a real draw for even our own elite players let alone world superstars.
I for one do not think anyone in MLS would ever risk their investment. It would have to be another upstart league growing and eventually overtaking MLS. Which is super improbable, but so is MLS adopting pro/rel.
Pro/Rel is possible (neigh, necessary!) in Europe because European football culture is bottom-up. There are local teams in every village, playing in local lower divisions. The higher up the ladder you climb, the larger the geographical uptake area (but also the more money). The top clubs in Europe are just the local clubs that became the best over time. Thus I believe the best way to change American soccer is to work long-term and bottom-up. Make it cheaper to play for kids, encourage local teams, build public pitches, etc.
@@YankReport yes there are many obstacles to overcome, but there are solutions for it. Distance: yes there can be burden of distance unless for 1 relegated team in East 1, another team that have won division East 2 will promote (in my mind there should be 2 Leagues, they cross each other only for the Cup and the Champions League and maybe Community Shield, winner D1 East vs winner D1 West). Stadiums and securing the finances: I live in Belgium and here every 2/3 years number of teams change due to financial instability of the clubs, but have found a solution for it: even if your team wins a promotion your club must have a stadium capacity of min. 10k secure all players + staff wages for next season etc. You can also work with academy, for example LAFC plays in D1 West, LAFC Academy can only play in D3 or under. Local-State-Conference-National Divisions. Most of the time local teams are only ment as Sunday league teams aka local pub team, it also helps them to run their business and support local businesses and I love it. At this MLS generates billions and only few elitist clubs get the fruits. Take San Jose for example, club doesn't compete for the title nor invest money, so what's the reason for it to be in the MLS? Money
They have youth clubs in every city in the US practically and their suburbs but they stop at 20yo generally. This is because of the hold NCAA has if you want to attend college. It's odd, but there could be an open division to start for low pro and those teams can add a pro level team but it would need to be structured all over the country and that takes time and money, which a lot of these clubs don't have if you want to get rid of the pay to play system... it's a constant struggle between proper development and league expansion.
The league was never created with that intent... it was specifically designed to be a single-entity league where teams are paid franchises that can't just get up to go play in another league.
I have to disagree with you there my man I'm from New York City and there are many historical leagues in the country that can be part of tier 4 and below of the Pro/Rel chart. For example, the NY area has the Cosmopolitan League and many other states have leagues like this. Just look NYC has 5 pro clubs around the area from what I know. NYCFC, NY Red Bulls, Queensboro FC (USL), Manhattan Soccer Club (USL 2), and New York Cosmos (NISA). However, I do agree about how the $325 is a huge burden for the Pro/Rel system to happen.
In Europe it's not uncommon for teams in the lower tiers to forego promotion because they wouldn't be able to handle the travel costs. I could see that being a reoccurring issue for the lower tiers in America. Traveling in this country for lower tier teams is just brutal.
@@YankReport That's because the lower tiers in Europe are usually amateur tiers and not because of the travel coasts. As a comparison Germany hasn't even the size of Montana, travel coasts are not really an issue for the lower tiers. That some lower tiers forego promotion is because these amateur clubs simply can't afford the high amounts of money needed to fullfil some standards they'll need when the get up to a higher tier league, like security, stadium lighting, stadium modernisation and so on and so forth. But I agree the travel expenses for lower tiers in the USA would be brutal given the sheer size of your nation.
It should be noted that according to FIFA regulations closed leagues are, in principle, not allowed and furthermore leagues are not allowed to have teams from more than one country. This could be a serious problem for MLS further down the road as the teams will have trouble taking part in FIFA-sanctioned international competitions. It all depends in which direction MLS should go. If it is enough to have a domestic league where teams are intentionally made equally mediocre and basically plays friendlies, then the current structure is probably fit for purpose. But if you want to have a league where at least some teams that can compete internationally and attract and keep the best players, then the traditional US pro-sport setup is not going to work.
Gotta be noted though that a lawsuit looking to force pro/rel on MLS failed and FIFA granted USSF a World Cup. I don’t think the US will be in hot water with fifa anytime soon.
MLS stands for "Major League Soccer"... So what would be the point of a league below MLS also calling itself "Major"? Better to just keep everyone in the same top league but divided into conferences and weed out the best from the rest by means of the playoff system...
I have to disagree with you, it's definitely more possible than you think. The biggest obstacle, like you mentioned, is financial, but that could easily be fixed with an influx of cash. Now, the hard part about that is where the cash will come from
@@aphus8504 That's England. Thats the only place where ProRel works. Theres a long tradition there, its entrenched in the culture. Are the 2nd Divisions in SPAIN or FRANCE well supported like in the UK?
@@davidday2373 Emotion & “Excitement” is the only the argument the Pro/Rel supporters have, but Financially it very unstable, & the fact the a European Super League almost happened tells you that the owners hate it,
@@fivehundrediq5212 But for whom? Excitement for FC Tulsa supporters, Hartford fans? The excitement is making a run in the Playoffs. If Europe what's excitement add Playoffs... let's turn the tables, see how much THEY like it. You add Playoffs, we'll add Pro-Rel 😉.
I just don’t see it. Americans are VERY notorious for not caring for secondary teams, even in big leagues. A Magic vs Wizards game isn’t going to do the numbers a Bucks vs Warriors game will. Relegation could be the end of clubs due to lack of interest. This could harm US sober more than is will help. Heck, living in Minnesota, MN United was a playoff team last year, but with Emanuel Reynoso being suspended due to activity in Argentina, there has a STRONG possibility MN United finishes in the bottom 3 of MLS and would have been relegated. This would hurt soccer in a small market which can’t afford to be seen as irrelevant this early in the club’s history.
I don’t see it happening any time soon, the league is still relatively speaking new. American owners would never go for it, and the majority of sports fans in the US wouldn’t understand it.
@@TickleMeElmo55 If your team gets relegated you'd support a team in the other 5-6 sports leagues that doesn't use Pro/Rel though. Ex: NYCFC got relegated? You still have the Knicks, Nets, Islanders, Rangers, Yankees, Mets, Giants, Jets and College Athletics to root for.
*Pro-reg isn't rocket science. The general American audience can understand it.* Understand it yes... but getting passionate enough about it to increase national interest is quite another thing. The natural tendency in American sports is to focus on and celebrate the winner... the top team and best players, the national spotlight is on the winners. Pro/rel unnaturally forces people to look at who is at the bottom and performing *worst* every given year, which makes no sense and nobody really cares about anyway.
@@davepazz580 it’s not so much about the fans or audience, it’s 100% about the owners who will never go for it. US owners just tried to hijack European soccer with the super league, do you think any of them will allow relegation in the MLS?
![[UA] NAVI vs MOUZ | BO5 | IEM Rio 2024](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/CMBYk0cbGoA/mqdefault.jpg)
What did I get wrong?
Haven’t finished watching yet but this channel is awesome 👍🏽
@@yanbr3134 Same here, always look forward to the content. Really good stuff.
I thought is was VERY good. I would like to see examples of the amazing stadiums, academies, and facilities that we can build because of the financial security. Big players and talent want to play in the biggest stadiums and fan bases. We need to remember we are NOT a soccer 1st country even though I think soccer has surpassed hockey and baseball (with those 35 and under). If we want to improve MLS and grow our academies we need to attract players with stadiums that can house a ton of fans and academies where the get top training and facilities. Soccer being the 3rd - 5th sport in US is a much higher risk to invest in a team than in Europe.
Just to add to your point about risky investments in stadiums: in many cases there's tax-payer money involved too, which usually means a vote. With 4 other major sports leagues (that are closed), the average voter would decline to pitch in for another stadium when the team might be relegated just for having a bad season. If soccer were the *one* dominant sport here, then maybe...
I don't think all 2nd tier teams would have to come up with full entry fee. That would be pretty silly, imo, for a long chance to move up.
More realisticly, a 2nd tier league would have to come up with a fee = roughly 2 teams, maybe? Use that $ to compensate the first few years of relegated teams.
But I don't disagree that it's a tough sell. Why would Chicago or Houston accept it?
I disagree with the logistics and geographic argument. Brazil is just as big as the United States and we have 4 divisions. Yes, the distance can complicate things, but we managed with airplanes, and I'm pretty sure that the American infrastructure is better than what we have in Brazil. One could argue that the top 13 Brazilian clubs are within São Paulo, Rio, Minas Gerais and Rio Grande do Sul, but lately Northeastern clubs have ascended to top positions within the league. Also, last year, Cuiabá, from Midwest Brazil had its debut in the first division and ended among top the 10. Not to mention, these are clubs that play over 60 games a year, 90 if they qualify for the Libertadores and Sul-americana. So this argument doesn't make sense at all. Promotion and Relegation would give an opportunity for lower divisions clubs to compete for the national championship and also reveal great talent within the leagues. Ronaldo and Romário, for example, were 2 players from Bangú and Olaria, 2 teams from the lower divisions.
The recent success of the (lower-division) Sacramento FC, who defeated three MLS teams en route to the finals of the U.S. Soccer Open, certainly lends weight to your argument. I don't discount the possibility that American professional soccer may go to a promotion-relegation structure in the future -- I just don't believe we are ready, at this time, for the current system to be replaced.
@@antman8887 as an American aren't you embarassed to have this system in the first place?
Brazils population is all in the east though, wouldn’t be as big of a problem if the us population wasn’t so spread out
@@lordpembridge303 we're used to it with all of our other sports. It's kind of cool to see a different system in football. The league is unpredictable when almost any team can win
then you will have to kick the canadian teams out of mls
Really informative. I'm a UK football fan and whenever my mates talk about US football the well worn line to deride the MLS is it's lack of promotion/relegation.
We've got promo/relegation here but the premier league has almost become a closed shop. Clubs relegated from the PL get so called "parachute" payments which is supposed to soften the drop in revenue.
What it in fact does is allow these clubs to keep PL grade players on PL grade wages whilst in a lower league. The result is clubs getting promoted back to the PL after just one season away.
For any club which does manage to get promoted to the PL the spending power of the existing PL clubs is so great that many promoted clubs last just one season before being relegated. Norwich City are a great example of this type of yo-yo club. They've been promoted/relegated/promoted in the last 3 seasons!
Based on your video I"d say the same situation would most likely occur in the US if you adopted promotion/relegation
Great insights. Thank you.
Yeah what your saying is true. Even despite that though, those teams that promote and relegate every season are important for improving the quality of football at the top level and pressuring top teams to get better in order to still dominate. And it still creates that excitement and incentive for the smaller newly promoted clubs.
With that being said, I think it is more important for Pro-Rel to be introduced at the lower levels of football in America. Football is a localized and very accessible sport that is designed to grow from down, up just like any market or business really.
Even in the Uk, if you really look at it promotion and relegation is actually more important for the lower divisions then it is the upper ones. The financial fallout is far less severe if your relegated, but the growth potential can be huge for a smaller club and the incentive it creates for everyone involved from players, to fans, to coaches, to small businesses that are invested in, etc is a huge driving factor for the sport. At the top level, pro-rel can be bad and create severe inbalances, but at the lower levels it’s very important.
@@FootPauler No it’s doesn’t the top 6 aren’t going anywhere anytime soon, You’re not gonna see Norwich even sniff mid table in our lifetime. Pro/Rel is a very unstable system especially if you’re a small club, plus American Owners would never go for it because in American leagues the Revenue is shared equally among all teams no matter how good or bad they are, so why would an Owner from a weaker team give that up for “excitement & competition?”
@@fivehundrediq5212 Because that is how you make soccer a more successful sport in the United States. If you give time for local communities to develop a soccer culture, like derbies, paraphernalia, and invest more in a half-decent stadium that doesn't bankrupt these institutions, and doesn't spend heavily on expensive European players, then there is a possible way to implement promotion and relegation.
@@bentancur-wd4vc - Only
9th letter
4th letter
9th letter
15th letter
20th letter
19th letter
Iike you would think Jacksonville would support a USFL Jaguars team when they won't even support a losing NFL team either, much less a AAA soccer team!
And only
9th letter
4th letter
9th letter
15th letter
20th letter
19th letter
Iike you would think America would watch a 6-20-7 Miami squad take on a 6-19-8 San Jose Earthquakes for the right to NOT get relegated to AAA! America doesn't watch losers unless you are the Green Bay Packers and Chicago Cubs!
I hope you do a video about the first soccer league in the US the 1920s ASL. Had the beginnings of being a big time league if the Great Depression never happened.
That would be fun to research. I don't know anything about it.
@@YankReport Yes it would be a very good research. Also two of the first big time USA players played in that league. Billy Gonsalves the "Babe Ruth" of American soccer at the time was a big time player for the ASL and the clubs Fall River Marksmen and Boston SC. He also played for our first USA World Cup teams in 1930 and 34, winning our closest place of winning the WC coming in 3rd. Then you have probably one of the best scorers in the league at the time Archie Stark. He also played for USA in 1925 but didn't sadly get a chance for the 2 World Cups because I think scheduling issues he had. He played in ASL as well and played for clubs like the legendary Bethelhem Steel FC and New York Field Club. I really hope you do a vid on this. People need to know we had a very great chance of starting real passion for soccer in the 20s. That could've changed the landscape of World Football if it went on.
yes but what needs to be remembered is it wasn't simply the depression but internal league bickering that killed the original ASL in the early 30s...
remember they had large crowds well before Grid Iron football did... back when Baseball Boxing and Cycling were our big spectator sports
I did an alternate history thing where the ASL continued. I believe it could have made the sport much more popular in the US if it had carried on and grown.
😳😳😱😱
💗 how you broke it down that pro rel needs to be regional because of our times zones and distances, plus that our lower divisions aren't up to par in infrastructure or resources to handle it, and securing lending for operations would be more expensive because the probability of a first division team collapsing if they got relegated would be significantly higher than on single entity where the league protects them from contracting.
The more you think about it the more you realize why American sports have adopted the closed league/playoffs system.
@@YankReport The more you think about it the less sense it makes in terms of sports and entertainment.
If you never have to worry about being relegated then there is no real reason to improve, you can just suck and get money.
@@OriginalPuro when you look at leagues with Pro/Rel do you see teams often going from the bottom of the league to the top of the league?
@@OriginalPuro
Well, then how do you expect low division teams get the funds to even operate?
That’s why low divisions teams in England won’t progress to the premier league. They lack funds.
Then you have Premier and league 1 play nationally and division 3 regional 4 sub regional and 5 state soccer. Simple and basic.
I think Pro/Rel should be regionally based, but it would be conferences. USL is already split into conferences you can have the bottom two teams go down and the top two teams from the conferences below go up. My personal idea is to have two teams from each conference in the lower division play the bottom two teams in each conference in MLS in a two legged series. How you determine the teams from USL could be team with best overall record/points, the USL champion and runners up in the overall standings. This would create excitement for some small clubs to have a chance to win through the USL playoffs to have a shot at MLS. I would also think the play-in matches between MLS and USL would be must see TV. I think it is a good idea, but any form of pro/rel is probably many years away.
Excellent analysis! Agree that pro/rel is not realistic for pro soccer in U.S at this time. A couple additional thoughts: 1)In the roughly equivalent time that the modern Premier League and MLS have been around, the PL has had 7(?) different teams win its championship; MLS has had 18 different champions. While there are certainly disadvantages to revenue sharing (losing some of our best players to foreign teams being the most obvious), in this case, spreading the wealth around has fostered interest on the league and in the sport, and helped ensure MLS's survival. 2)Your observations regarding the size of the country are spot on; which is why Nashville SC,who will suddenly find themselves in the Western Conference next year, will face a distinct disadvantage due to travel fatigue. Hopefully this mistake will be corrected with the addition of St. Louis in 2023. (The timing is also unfortunate in that NSC were just beginning to establish healthy rivalries with regional opponents Atlanta and Orlando.)
I have this lovely idea to make the MLS interesting. First, maximum of 40 teams in the league. 20 in the west, 20 in the east. Next, treat each conference as it own league. Remember that the USA is big, probably as big as Europe aside Russia.
Each team plays 38 games against JUST their conference rivals. No inter-conference matches. This will help a lot with logistics, traveling for games for both the club and their fans. Next, the team with the best record (most points) win the conference.
For example, if the season was to end now, FC Cincinnati will be the champion of the East and St Louis FC champions of the West. As for the playoffs, rebrand it to be as appealing as the UEFA Champions League. Occurs after the regular season as usual. The top 8 teams from each conference would qualify for the tournament. Each round played over two legs except the Final. Round 1: draw an Eastern team with a Western team Round 2-the final: Draw any team meets any team. For example: 2 teams from same conference can meet each other.
All-Stars weekend: Stop playing with European teams. East vs. West. The team that win will have their regular season champion host the Post season tournament final.
I believe that the MLS infrastructure is flawed and makes it difficult for lower league teams to get promoted if there were to be pro/rel. I’m hoping NISA (a new league of independent clubs) succeeds in creating pro/rel.
Enjoyed the video. Keep it up!
They'll need a ton of fan support.
I like what I see from NISA, but their structure success rely to heavily on USSF changing their sanctioning rules. I have no faith in that happening with MLS holding the strings.
Ok but that doesn’t explain the financial side.
There’s a reason why low division teams in England can’t progress to the premier league. Because they lack funds.
Hi from the UK. I always enjoy your videos. You're one smart chap! Keep it up.
Appreciate it amigo. Thank you for watching.
Buen video, buen análisis. Ya quiero ver la MLS completa con sus 30 equipos, espero que con los años sea la super liga que merece ser.
Y hoy juega la USMNT contra Honduras!!!!!!!! Jajaja veremos quién gana, que gane el mejor.
USL Clubs are to tiny to enter MLS. USL Needs to get into stable conditions (the same conditions of MLS) Same Stadiums , A capacity more than 20,00 (Which Many USL teams which soccer specific stadiums don’t have) If Phoenix rising and Indy Eleven get new stadiums the chances can be more possible
BUT we need more USL teams to do the same thing plus moving to adidas every season you get promoted can be a disaster so all MLS well need to make every team to choose its own sports brand which that would probably spending money every year you get promoted. Also Here are a Few More Reasons :
1. MLS Owners Have No Upside in risking their investment
2 . Professional Sports in the US are closed systems (MLS Could Never get pro and real)
3 . Economic Ramifications of relegation could to USL Clubs could be ruinous for some clubs
4. Relegation into USL Could be lead to decreased attendances
5. MLS Clubs Does Not Have The infrastructure or Financial clout to “flourish” as much other relegated to 2nd tier leagues such as EFL Championship or 2.Bundesliga
(Sorry if I got something wrong)
1) why do you care whether billionaire investments require ROI? Do billionaires guarantee your season ticket investment leads to a successful season? 2) closed systems are socialism. Why wouldn't you prefer a capitalist system instead? 3) if USL clubs start small, returning to small would be the price for failure. 4) Give clubs some credit--they would expect that sucking has consequences but you clearly do not believe that should be the case. 5) Your club better not suck, then, so remind your club they need to stay up.
Wow I never knew having pro/rel in the MLS is this complicated. Ojalá en el futuro hay uña forma para cambiar esto
Quisas si Elon Musk invents teleportation en el futuro. Ahora a viajar entre EEUU es muy dificil porque es tan grande.
Para qué? ASCENSO-DESCENSO no sirve para nada en nuestras ligas, solo vale la pena en Inglaterra.
@@davidday2373 I just want Elon Musk to invent teleportation
gay
Very informative. I didn’t realize that these specific obstacles existed.
His last 2 logic is wrong.
These are the best arguments I've heard against pro/rel for MLS. Most arguments I've heard of why pro/rel isn't coming to the league has been from a pure financial perspective.
Yo creo que la MLS se complica por gusto.
1.- No es necesario que sus divisiones sean de 20 a más equipos, actualmente bien podrían dividir la MLS en dos grupos de 12 clubes que podrían funcionar tranquilamente como dos categorías de ascenso y descenso.
2.- Pese a que el factor histórico es importante para la supervivencia de un club (motivo por lo cual Argentina y Brasil siguen dominando el fútbol sudamericano), también hay casos de equipos relativamente nuevos que son incluso más competitivos que los clásicos grandes. Vease Defensa y Justicia, Independiente del Valle, Bragantino, Melgar de Arequipa o Deportes Tolima.
3.- Los descensos y ascensos son una forma de filtrar ligas, en donde se mantiene la calidad en vez de la cantidad. Que si funciona bien, pueden tener una competición como el Brasilerao, en donde incluso los grandes pueden peligrar el descenso por una mala temporada.
4.- La MLS por población (en parte gracias a los latinos) y dinero tiene el potencial para ser la mejor Liga del continente. Cosa que no se logrará sin antes mejorar internamente y competir, junto a la MX en la Libertadores y Sudaméricana; campeonatos en donde en verdad habrá una competencia a muerte contra otros grandes equipos del continente.
Thanks for the extra context. I want to see pro/rel but with all the considerations you brought up, we maybe decades away from that. I wonder if there would be a knock on effect to other leagues. If MLS had pro/rel at some point, would that induce NBA, NHL and MLB to adopt a similar model in the future???
The three most profitable leagues in the world are the NFL, NBA and MLB. I don’t think they are changing anything anytime soon.
No. Why should other leagues change its closed system because another did it? Plus, soccer development is different in comparison to the baseball, basketball, American football and hockey. Pro-reg doesn't add anything of true value. And there's this thing called the NCAA, arguing the best training ground for many Olympic sports.
Theres no point to Pro-Rel.
MLS has a stranglehold on club soccer due to their antitrust exemptions. Relegation is generations away UNLESS financial ruin forces the hands of so many owners that they agree to a new rights commercial contract from billionaires with financial support for lower rung clubs.
No, American's prefer socialist sports leagues instead of capitalist ones. MLS = full-on commie billionaire league, but it's hilarious reading people defending the poor billionaires and their investments.
Would pro/rel be cool to see? Absolutely. Is it realistic? No. It's fun to talk about though.
He doesn't say that it's not realistic. Quite the opposite actually. He says that its unlikely
@@jamesrowe8953 I'm saying it's not realistic.
@@pogfee Brazil (Country size) and Scandinavia (Winter weather) enter the chat.
@@inelhuayocan_aci What does that have to do with anything?
@@pogfee Geography related concerns in the capacity of travel time were mentioned in the video. The winter climate of the North Atlantic is typically argued against Pro/Rel in North America. It was merely a fun comment based on proven remedies to test for what your otherwise unspoken sympathies could be.
I'm from Australia and soccer fans that follow our A-league which is also closed model have this very same debate.
People that advocate for a Pro/Reg system have adopted a very eurocentric viewpoint that is not realistic to countries like the US/Canada and Australia where our sporting culture is more based around a draft and a singular finals champion for the entirety of the professional league. Different to Europe where individual teams are allowed to not only compete in the local top flight professional league, but also Pan European tournaments.
It's simply an adaption of the sport go the country. Similar to how Euroleague and FIBA Europe basketball work pro/reg into the American sport of Basketball.
It's not an issue of Eurocentric or not. It's whether we believe in a socialist business model or a capitalist one. Unfortunately, Americans prefer the socialist model because they don't know any better. Maybe if the learn enough about the sport they might change their minds, but that is 2 lifetimes away at this point.
Add pro/reg with a regional divide into 8 (6 states per region) to play for a cup . This allows local clubs from each region to be part of the main stage and pull in more fans/$ when promoted. Then have a playoff from all the top teams from each region like the UCL cup.
Such a setup would be highly inequitable given the population distribution of the US:
A - WA, OR, ID, MT, ND, SD, AK
B - CA, NV, UT, AZ, CO, WY, HI
C - NM, TX, OK, KS, LA, AR
D - NE, MN, IA, MO, WI, IL
E - IN, MI, OH, KY, WV, TN
F - MS, AL, FL, GA, SC, NC
G - VA, MD, DE, PA, NJ, NY, DC
H - CT, MA, RI, VT, NH, ME
Even if you try to divide things up equitably, it would be hard to apply that method to some parts of the country. With four regions it might make a little more sense.
What about Canadian teams
Excellent explanation for us overseas fans.
Hey amigo, me gustan tus videos por que es muy informative para poder conocer mas del futbol estadounidense!! Good job bro👍 has mas videos mas seguido.
Muchas gracias Omar.
That was very is interesting I like quite a lot about us soccer business keep up the good work 😃
While I want pro/rel, I admit it'd be a logistical, financial nightmare right now. Lower league teams need time to build their infrastructure. Once that's done, I can envision a regional pro/rel, where the US is divided into 2 conferences, East and West. D2 teams in each conference get promoted to D1. And Eastern and Western conferences would only play each other for an MLS/Open Cup final and possibly off season friendlies. Its the best way to ensure somewhat fair travel demands and budget control.
Exactly...
And while MLS would be totally absorbed by the logistics of such a ridiculous proposal, the other US sports league would continue being as successful as they are without any of this pro/rel nonsense!
@@davepazz580 pro/reg would help futbol/soccer in the USA grow! And It would be more successful than it is right now… but it’s years away still to be able to think about that.
@@gamingcreator0083 I don't see how that would... basically pro/rel is replacing one bad team with another bad team every year.
If the teams coming up from the second division were of the caliber of a Bayern Munich, Real Madrid, Man City, etc. *then* I could understand this making soccer more successful... but we know that's *far* from the actual quality of what second-division teams have to offer.
But even if we're talking about "years away", MLS has already been founded and established as single-entity league where all the teams are league-owned... therefore, no MLS team can just get up and league to go play in any other division but the top one.
@@davepazz580 I actually don’t think the Gap between MLS and USL Is that big to be honest..Just look at this years open cup. Unfortunately that is true … gotta protect your investment right🙃 … but i do think pro/reg would help MLS immensely
@@gamingcreator0083 The gap is actually quite wide when you consider US Open Cup games aren't even prioritized by MLS teams (they usually send reserve, make-shift squads to those games)...
It's a *lot* different if you put that same USL team in an MLS regular season week in and week out... these odd US Open Cup matches don't really prove much.
Recall Cincinnati's first year in MLS... that team kept a lot of it's USL players and got pretty hammered every week.
It wasn't until they got more players with MLS experience that they've slowly turning things around now.
Brazil is as large as US and we have four divisions. The fourth starts with regions tournament. The third is played all over the country.
That’s definitely what the USA should adopt but the mls owners wouldn’t want to adopt that due to knowing that their club would get relegated and losing money. So the league would need to think of something to peruse the owners
@@captainyank138 If it doesn’t make Money they’re not going for any pro/rel idea
@@fivehundrediq5212 holy shit I completely change my thoughts on pro and rel in the mls. I agree with you. I actually think it would plump the ratings in the mls and that wouldn’t be a good fit
@@fivehundrediq5212 also brazil has most of its clubs near eachother and very few that are quite a distance away. Where as the USA has teams in northwest northeast south west texas southeast. I brought up texas because it’s the size of west Europe basically
@@captainyank138 In 2019 The PL Title Race between Man City & Liverpool came down to the last day…….was anybody caring about Pro/Rel? The the fact that the ESL almost formed (will form in the future) even shows the European Owners that Pro/Rel makes no financial sense.
I don't think the casual fans in US or Canada would fully understand. I think that MLS could benefit from having 32 teams at this point as well as using the NFL schedule model and maybe even their playoff system
Thanks for the explanation, I did wonder why the US had opted for a completely different structure for football to the rest of the world.
I'm Portuguese and as far as I know, I'm the only MLS fan here (sarcasm). You made a lot of valid points for sure but isn't It possible to have the "MLS Championship" state divided and invite the biggest teams from USL and NISA to join giving them chances to grow to have the goal to get promoted to MLS, I want to believe some of this teams have already some conditions to join in at least as a second division teams. Also, the relegation needed a parachute to assure the teams don't go out of money, you made a good point that maybe credit and investor will lose interest if the team get relegation but maybe we will get more investors interested cause they can invest in second league teams with a lower risk.
I'm a football manager and database maker and usually play a lot on MLS and also did a database with a second MLS following these rules I mentioned.
Excelente video, a parte del tema financiero, no había considerado la logística OMG
Wow, dunking on Bruce Arena 😂
Had to.
I like this Channel a Lot.
Thanks, Sam.
If you were to introduce pro/rel into the MLS something people often forget about is Canada, the CPL is becoming a competitive league itself and with three Canadian teams in the MLS you would have to find a way to include Canada into the pro/rel system, this would further complicate things as either you could make the second tier of each country merge or you could have them split into regional leagues at the tier 2. If you choose to merge them then the travel issue become a huge problem. But if you choose to regionalize them then you have to decide do we do 2 or 4 regions and with 2 the travel issue is still there just not as bad, then you have to decide how to figure out promotion and relegation. With two regional leagues then you could do the winner of each league plus the two second place teams go into a playoff spot
This wouldn't be an issue at all.
The Canadian and US soccer systems are completely separate and they would continue to be separate under pro/rel.
Any Canadian team playing the US soccer pyramid would have nothing to do with Canadian soccer pyramid and vice versa.
Im from indonesia despite how large our country is we still using promosion and relegation and in our first division we have team that consist from the west end(persiraja from aceh) to the east end(persipura from jayapura, papua), and before 2008, our league also separated by west conferences and east conferences but still there is promotion and relegation for example in first division total 34 teams and divided 18 west and 18 east so the relegation system is like the bottom 3 from east and west both are going down to 2nd division. Even in the 96-99 our league divided into 3 areas, east-middle-west. And yes there is a lot of financial problem here, but the problem isnt cause by promotion/relegation system.
Exactly! We have 4 divisions in Brazil, and it's just as big as the United States. Corinthians, for example, traveled from São Paulo to Chapecó, SC and then to Fortaleza, CE on the same week. The distance from one city to another is just as far as LA to NY and we managed just fine. So how can that even be an argument for not having relegation and promotion? Lol
Considering the Geography of Indonesia, I don’t believe a single word you’re saying
Persipura Jayapura(Papua island) to Persiraja Banda Aceh (Sumatera island) is more than 5000 km .
Indonesia have more than 17.000 islands .!!!
@@fivehundrediq5212 well just google it there's a lot of sources
@@fivehundrediq5212 watch liga 1 persipura vs persiraja then
Hey! Sorry not to be picking, but in 3:17 you have LA Galaxy circled and that was the team that faced Inter Miami but you said LAFC!
I was waiting for someone to catch that. Mixed that one up.
I have this lovely idea to make the MLS interesting. First, maximum of 40 teams in the league. 20 in the west, 20 in the east. Next, treat each conference as it own league. Remember that the USA is big, probably as big as Europe aside Russia.
Each team plays 38 games against JUST their conference rivals. No inter-conference matches. This will help a lot with logistics, traveling for games for both the club and their fans. Next, the team with the best record (most points) win the conference.
For example, if the season was to end now, FC Cincinnati will be the champion of the East and St Louis FC champions of the West. As for the playoffs, rebrand it to be as appealing as the UEFA Champions League. Occurs after the regular season as usual. The top 8 teams from each conference would qualify for the tournament. Each round played over two legs except the Final. Round 1: draw an Eastern team with a Western team Round 2-the final: Draw any team meets any team. For example: 2 teams from same conference can meet each other.
All-Stars weekend: Stop playing with European teams. East vs. West. The team that win will have their regular season champion host the Post season tournament final.
30 year football fan here. I adopted MLS when I moved here in the US long time ago. One thing I love about MLS is it's unpredictability. Anyone can win the league and I love that. I find it boring when only a couple of clubs wins the league each year. Also, I love how MLS league table moves so quick each week. What MLS lacks in the pro/rel drama, they make up for it in the middle of the table of the push for the playoffs. I think the MLS is fine just the way it is for now. Ones the league mature some more, then a pro/rel can be introduced.
Good video, and you have some valid points, but I disagree with your geography argument. I'll use baseball to illustrate why.
When the Giants and Dodgers moved from New York to San Francisco and Los Angeles respectively, for a number of seasons, only two of the 10 National League teams were in the Mountain or Pacific Time zones. The other teams were in Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Milwaukee (Braves), Chicago, Cincinnati, St. Louis, Houston and eventually New York (Mets). Yet, the league was still able to maintain a balanced schedule for a number of seasons. When the Los Angeles Angels joined in 1961, they were the only American League team west of the Central Time zone and that remained the case for a number of years. The other American League teams were in Boston, New York, Baltimore, Washington, Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago, Minneapolis and Kansas City. Yet the AL somehow still managed to maintain a balanced schedule for a number of seasons.
Bear in mind that planes back then were slower than today and yet both leagues managed to make this work.
Ditto. Brazil has 4 divisions and it's just as big as the United States. I've heard that argument before, but honestly, if we can make it down there and still compete in the Libertadores, MLS clubs should definitely be able to do the same. It's an opportunity to let lower division clubs to ascend and also reveal great talent within the league. Many great Brazilian players playing in the Champions League came from the lower divisions.
How does russia and china do pro rel? Being similar sized nations maybe we can use them as a model?
It has nothing to do with size, but how many competing sports leagues are flooding the market...
Russia has most of the teams concentrated in one area of the country. China is similar, but China is also dealing with a bunch of issues. They've been expanding the league since inception and have had discussions to consolidate into a European Super League type entity. It appears China is having an issue with teams folding.
También me encantaría ver esto, pero necesitamos tener ligas inferiores más fuertes.
Awesome video. I’m curious to know if you will do a video about your thoughts on pro/rel as a whole?
As in whether or not it has long-term sustainability?
@@YankReport sorry just seen this comment. Do you think having pro/rel makes a league more competitive? IMO it doesn’t because it creates an imbalance for the top teams to realistically (because they have the finances) have a chance to win the league while the middle and bottom teams have to survive the threat of relegation. With the exception of Premier League, the other European leagues have one or a few teams win their domestic league every year. Pro/rel hasn’t helped Bundesliga because Bayern Munich always wins. Curious to know your opinion.
Pro/rel as a whole is a great format, but only under a specific set of circumstances:
1. Every team is an actual "club" that's a fully independent entity unto itself and completely self-sustaining...
2. Soccer (or whichever sport you want to apply pro/rel to) must be the undisputed most popular, most money-generating sport of that country...
The U.S. doesn't meet these 2 requirements, as MLS teams are not independent clubs, but paid franchises which *cannot* even exist anyplace else *but* in MLS (which is the top league)...
MLS teams aren't self-sustaining either... because being that they are paid franchises, it also means all MLS teams are financially bound to each other and in effect, all form a singular financial entity.
And of course, soccer is far from being the most popular sport here... it's gaining ground, but still not close to being at the top.
The biggest factor is really the sports culture... professional sports leagues in the U.S. live and die for the post-season playoffs, whereas other countries live and die for a basic ranking (they do have "playoffs", but only between teams of other countries at that point).
What ultimately makes a league "competitive" has more to do with other factors than using pro/rel or the US playoff system... every country has to use whatever system has been proven to work best within its own boundaries.
Closest thing to Pro-Rel in MLS would be what happened to Tampa Mutiny, Miami Fusion, Chivas USA (getting deleted from existence)... and San Jose/Houston (ownership choosing to relocate to a new city).
I tend to agree that a closed system is a more sustainable model than pro-rel, though it's also true that pro-rel leagues have way more drama and competition at the bottom of the table than American leagues. I tend to reject the idea that MLS 'needs' pro-rel.
@@YankReport I truly don't see the point to Pro-Rel, not for us in the U.S. (1) We don't have 100 year old Clubs who dream of one day playing in the 1st Division (2) For our League to have a chance at growing among the other Sports leagues, we have to rely on Strong markets, build brands, Relegation inhibits that growth (3) It DEPRESSING to see some of these teams in other leagues fighting to not get Relegated. Culturally, the very notion is off-putting.
@@davidday2373 todos es verdad, amigo.
hear me out. let’s say we have do it like south american leagues but separated into west and east. for example, top teams of the western conference see who will make the cup final, and the bottom teams will be in the western conference relegation playoff final. reduces travel, has pro/rel, incorporates an aspect of the super bowl or nba finals.
-American leeds united and ac milan supporter
It's not impossible. It sounds like MLS is heading to 34 teams, so splitting the leagues is a realistic possibility.
The lower divisions being able to pay for travel isn't a good point just like in Europe the promoted team now get access to a bigger cut of all TV and marketing deals so they get more money in their operating budgets
I guarantee they’re not getting as much as American teams, In America all teams no matter how good or bad they are gets equal share of the guaranteed money every year + American sports leagues have player unions.
Personally, I know that my opinion is not going to be a popular one… I think MLS should operate like MLB and have affiliations between MLS and USL we’re players move up and down the tiers, not the team. This allows smaller markets to showcase star players moving up the tier after purchase or injury.
MLS could realistically expand all the way to 40 teams...and still not do pro rel. They could just split the league in half (like baseballs american and national league) balanced schedule in each league, they get their own trophy (NHL has their own specialty named trophys) then the MLS cup could be a tournament either year long like the carabao cup, maybe even have an end of the year soccer bowl throwback between the two league champs. I dont see pro rel or an open system happening.
It's the salaries, not pro/rel. Hypothetical (1): If next year MLS went to pro/rel, and the big 5 became closed systems, *and the player salaries of all those leagues remained as they are now*, European fans would continue watching their own leagues. Reverse Hypothetical (2): If MLS stayed closed (and salary capped), but increased the salaries to be the highest in the world [i.e. Messi, Ronaldo et al. all played for U.S. teams (in their primes)], global fans would start following MLS.
Year by year the MLS gets better and has more viewership, the salaries creep up, more U.S. talent emerges, and the cycle continues. The MLS could end up a stable league with comparable quality to the big 5 one day. There's certainly a large enough U.S./Canadian population to support it.
Yeah I like pro/rel from the entertainment perspective but I've never bought the argument that pro/rel on it's own would make MLS a world power.
@@YankReport Central American leagues have Pro/Rel, are they improving or are they better than MLS? South American leagues also have Pro/Rel, besides Brazil and Argentina, are those leagues improving or becoming world beaters? Pro/Rel doesn't help in anything
@@YankReport
Beitrag des Donnerstages, 15. September 2022
"Konkurrenz belebt das Geschäft!"
=
"Compeition vitalizes the business!"
great breakdown here
What if they use promotion and relegation on the USL (U.S. Second division) and lower divisions.
Then the champion of the 2nd division team can get financial help from investors and promote them.
I know this idea has a lot of setbacks too but im just throwing it out there.
Pro/Rel between the USL leagues is something that's been discussed a lot. Unfortunately the logistics issues in MLS are compounded when you move down the pyramid as money is much tighter. Maintaining reasonable travel distances is very important.
I like the idea of Pro/Rel for all the teams bellow MLS.
The USL President said they're considering pro rel across USL Championship, League One, and League Two, but are focusing on infrastructure first.
@@ryanjohnson6272 The infrastructure and logistics are serious, serious issues in this country.
What if teams lose 5 mil instead of 20 mil like in europe
Tbh I really wish we could function with Europe but the time difference is just so different
Amazing analysis
Pro/rel can be improved upon and made compatible with the North American sports model. If by pro/rel we mean having a schedule based upon where one was in the standings from the previous year.
The NFL does this by having 2 games per year against teams that finished in the same position in their division.
The European model has a hard scheduling divide between the tiers. But you don't have to do things that way. People should open their minds to different ways of doing things.
every US state should have it's own league. And then there should be a US-wide champions league similar to UEFA Champions League
Maybe regional instead of state-wide, like NE, SE, SW, NW leagues
States don't have a high enough population to do that.
@@Simon-tc1mc
Beitrag des
Even the Vatican, has its own national league of gentlemen´s association soccer!
The 17 teams play in the Italian part of Rome.
The Vatican Football Association is no member in UEFA, nor FIFA.
1- necesitan generar nuevos equipos que jueguen en ligas de ascenso.
2- necesitan que el campeonato de primera tengas descensos y ascensos, además de jugar promociones entre equipos de primera división y segunda.
3- necesitan hacer la liga regular para los equipos de primera y la copa de EEUU en paralelo con único partido entre las dos divisiones.
4- necesitan poner un límite de extranjeros dentro de cada plantel para que más jugadores jóvenes puedan nutrirse de experiencia con los extranjeros.
5- necesitan tener divisiones inferiores para foguear a sus futuras estrellas deportivas.
6- necesitan competir a todo campeonato internacional o copa que exista a nivel clubes.
7- necesitan impulsar el fútbol cambiando las siglas mls a mlf, en el resto del mundo es fútbol, no soccer.
@@viniciusmartinsmarcelino2719 la única verdad es la realidad. El dinero que se necesita aún no está disponible y los atletas que tanto dices no han ganado nada. Si quieren seguir jugando la serie mundial, ese es su problema. Lo importante es la competencia y entender que en el deporte como en la vida si uno es el peor se va al descenso. Raro que en EEUU no tengan ese concepto. Si solo quieren hacer negocios que se queden como están. Yo vivo en argentina, si vieras los jugadores que se quieren salvar jugando al fútbol por qué de otra cosa se morirían de hambre. No importa el club, puede ser de primera división o de la liga más chiquita que exista. Nadie se conforma con lo que tiene y quiere ganar siempre. Eso creo que en EEUU lo entienden bien. Esos valores, de competencia, de lucha y de superación se dan en un país destruido y decadente que no posee ningún premio para el mejor, no hablar en términos económicos e igualmente salen jugadores con calidad y con mística, que es una palabra como de los magos o de nación atrasada, pero la realidad es que el empuje y el fogueo que le genera al jugado de forma mental ayuda a progresar en un medio cada vez más desfavorable. El dinero no hace campeones, el dinero los compra, lo que los hace campeones es la competencia. Ahí está el eje central de todo atleta. Se corren los límites del cuerpo y de la mente y se encuentran destinos nuevos. Suena a basura de autosuperación y eso, pero la realidad es que funciona en el alto rendimiento del fútbol. En conclusión, la competencia, las recompensas y los castigos y el trabajo físico y mental hacen a los jugadores grandes jugadores. Eso creo yo.
Europe will give up on pro/rel before ever the MLS adopts it.
I've been saying this for a decade now, but maybe with things like the possible merger of the Dutch and Belgian leagues and the looming specter of the Euro Super league people will start to believe me.
Pro/Rel has been as disaster for European soccer over the last 40 years. No one in their right mind would want to replicate it.
I tend to agree with you, but that is not a very popular opinion on the internet. Europe is having to look at itself in the mirror right now as they've allowed things to get out of hand.
100%. If European football was created today, they would not have pro rel
Tbh, given how tiny both Belgium and the Netherlands are it is just a logical step, but I fail to see what that has to do with pro/rel.
And what exactly is the desaster for European soccer caused by pro/rel? Name some examples, I'll wait.
Also claiming that Europe or the rest of the world will give up on pro/rel is just plain out delusional.
And for the Euro Super League, well we all know how that one ended.
@@GeorgHaeder All you have to do is look at the finances of European soccer over the last 30-40 years to see just how bad pro/rel has been just about everywhere.
The first consequence of pro/rel is that even large and successful clubs frequently enter administration owing to bankruptcy. In the last 15 years, 25 prominent English soccer clubs entered bankruptcy as a direct result of the dysfunctional profit/loss cycles created by pro/rel - including some that in that period had been in the Premier League. Pro/rel creates a system where it requires more money to keep soccer as you know it going than the system collectively takes in. Someone is always going bankrupt somewhere.
What keeps the English soccer pyramid going increasingly is pulling in foreign investors from places like the UAE, USA and Thailand. Without that, the whole Premier League might have gone bankrupt despite its gross revenue and global reach. But the problem with increasingly pulling in outside investors is that at some point you are going to run out of rich playboys and monarchs that look at owning a team like a hobby and don't care how many millions they lose, and you are going to find yourself controlled by investors that actually expect a reasonable rate of return on the investment - something that right now they aren't getting.
The other problem with Pro/Rel is that it is a system that causes the rich to get richer while the poor get poorer. If you look at the present state of league finances across all European domestic leagues and compare that to say 1970 or 1980, you'll find a huge disparity has grown up between the largest programs and the smaller ones that are supposed to be providing for competition in a competitive league that doesn't have a fixed and predictable outcome. Outside investment in the EPL somewhat hides this disparity in England, but if you look at Switzerland, Austria, Portugal, Greece, or even large leagues Italy or France you'll find that the leaders in those leagues have 30 times or more revenue than the teams expected to play them. The result is largely predictable results in non-competitive games where the same teams wins 9 years in 10, or the same 2-4 teams have won every year for decades. Even the Bundesliga, which by far has the best finances in Europe can't run a league that is both profitable and competitive using Pro/Rel. Bayern Munich strolls to a title almost every year.
This is inherent to Pro/Rel and even its defenders generally (unwittingly) prove it by declaring that in a "proper league" a team that loses ought to be "punished". But the effect of that punishment is not what they predict in making the league more competitive. On the contrary it makes it far less. Increased risk in investment doesn't lead to more investment, which all but the economically illiterate realize.
This is something the EPL is keenly aware of. To maximize revenue they have to be able to telecast the down table games with as much interest as the few games per season that occur between the 'big 6'. To do that has involved becoming increasingly 'American' in their league structure, with collective profit sharing, parachute payments to mitigate the punishment of being relegated and so forth.
Hence the continuing desire for investors to have a largely closed Super League. You have dodged the bullet this round, but the fundamental disconnect between the fans who demand their traditional amateur inspired league structures and the owners who are trying to manage an actual professional club as a business will continue. Eventually the players are going to side with the owners, because the owners plan will involve not cutting their salaries while playing fewer games than the ridiculous multi-league schedule the current structure demands. When that happens, neither FIFA nor the fans will have much of a say in the matter, because fans will watch the biggest teams with the players playing each other even if the format isn't traditional.
@@celebrim1 I seee your points and I understand where you coming from but I'm still not convinced that a european version of the MSL is the right way.
TBH, I can understand the english fans, they see people like the Glazers (owners of Man U) and that Yankee who owns Liverpool (sorry his name eludes me right now) and a few others who are just in for the bucks, while not doing much for the sport itself.
Yes you're right Bayern München is the German title holder since 2011, true, and still they and Borussia Dortmund said right of the bat that they do not want to have anything to do with the European MSL.
I'm convinced if all the FA's of Europe would get together and do some serious brain work (yeah, I know) there could be a middle ground between the situation right now and the blatant amercanisation of European Football. A eruope wide 50+1 rule would be a nice start, but that's just my oppinion.
Also noteworthy is that exactly the clubs who were considered for the Euro-MSL are the clubs who have the most overspending and in case of the Spanish and Italian clubs also the most debt caused by said overspending while clubs like Ajax Amsterdam or PSG weren't even asked.
Sure on the long term a Euro-MSL most likely can't be avoided, if that will be economically feasible on the long run, I really don't know.
I'll be honest, I rather go and watch my Eintracht Frankfurt play an amateur team in a friendly, or even E-Sports games, than watch the scousers play Barca every few weeks (not that I would watch to begin with as I don't give a fuck about both of them).
Sure, the Euro-MSL aims at their clubs worldwide fanbases and the money from advertising and the tele stations, they don't give a flying fuck about stadium attendance, I get that, whether the world wide fanbase want to see the same games at the tele year in year out or not remains to be seen.
The biggest problem I see is that a Euro-MSL will have an entry fee in the hundreds of million of Euro range for clubs who do want to enter said league.
On one side this limits entrance only to a select few clubs europe wide and even then the ESL can pick those who'll be the least competitive clubs out of the select few to enter as a newmember.
Basically canonfodder for Barca, Liverpool, The Stamford Bridge wankers and the rest.
Actually the planned ESL is even more elitist than the EPL, Bundesliga, Serie A and so on ever were.
Para que halla ascensos y descenson en la mls ,primero tiene tiene que haber 30 equipos y despues 20 equipos en segunda y 10 equipos en tercera
They aren't far away from 30 equipos. I'd like to see them keep expanding after 30.
brazil we have 20 teams in A, B and C and then D with amauters, 4 demoted 4 promoted in each one, i guess is better for the usa that way since we are amost the same size :P
I’m curious can the teams be moved around like other American sports ?
They can.
@@YankReport Has it happened with a prominent team yet ? I know about the stadium hustle tactics used by NFL owners
@@YankReport Hope they don’t do it. I know MLS teams are essentially franchises, but moving around just doesn’t sit well with me. One thing for a young club, but not established ones
They can be moved yes, but usually it would take some pretty bad set of circumstances and doesn't happen often...
Yes, ask any old San Jose Earthquakes fan. Around 2005 Don Garber decided to allow the team owner to relocate the franchise to Houston instead of finding a local entity to buy the club. Our own Wimbledon clusterfnck. check the Wiki pages for both clubs. Garber knew he was p1ssing off San Jose fans (but didn't care) so MLS insisted that the Houston franchise could not claim titles won while in San Jose. How can the Earthquakes be MLS Cup champions in 2001 and 2003 and Supporters Shield Champions in 2005 when the franchise wasn't created until 2008? Complete joke. So now San Jose is cursed. In 15 years they've only won the supporters shield in 2012. They have sucked for the past 10 years. Their biggest claim to fame: we have the biggest bar west of the Mississippi.
Pro/rel barely works in Mexico and football is everything to them. At this time there are only 2 clubs in their second tier that would be eligible to move up if they earned it on the field, and the top tier has a multiple-team ownership situation to sort out.
Meanwhile MLS has an extra 11, soon to be 12 teams in their top flight. There's much greater parity, with a greater percentage of the league being very good and a small percentage being exponentially worse than the front runners. And at the second tier, there is no shortage of teams that can move up if they can come up with hundreds of millions of dollars in financial backing.
This isn't because the US and Canada love their domestic leagues that much more. It's because our system is very well put together, and I seriously doubt that we could get better results than Liga MX if we did exactly what Liga MX is doing while having less than half of the support.
We got creative. We did something different that works better for us in our unique situation. We're finally getting results on the field.
nobody is holding up Liga MX as the exemplar. No USMNT starter plays in MLS. "Results on the field" is relative.
@r2dad282 Correct, no one Is holding up Liga MX as the exemplar. The Problem is that too many people readily assume that the US will obviously become The exemplary in very short order if it has a league system that implements pro/rel. With no more than 20 clubs in the top flight, probably. And the reality is, if we did have that, it won't surpass the Prem. It probably wouldn't surpass Liga MX.
Liga MX is not the global exemplar, but it should be held up as a best case scenario in our own hemisphere that still has a lot of flaws and definitely falls short of what we want, and of what we actually Can have without pro/rel.
Im always railing against the MLS monopoly, but in reality we need USSF to establish a proper soccer pyramid FIRST that rationalizes the lower leagues so that they can then support pro/rel. I mean, having a top tier of 20 and a lower tier of 20 MLS teams is a step in the right direction, but at the end of the day that revised structure has to be connected to the leagues/clubs below to enable pro/rel to really function properly. MLS can't support it now, but USSF refuses to do anything to form a functioning pyramid.@@mmmcounts
@@r2dad282 MLS is simply doing what would be perfectly logical to for an American sports league... "lower league" teams exist only to serve smaller markets and to provide development/support to major league teams - that's it.
The only "movement" between tiers should be players and coaches (as their individual performances merit at the time)... not entire teams.
@davepazz580 Who are you to decide that smaller markets don't deserve a shot at the big time? Also, I don't trust American coaches as far as I can throw them. Have you been to a "tryout" at any level? They're arbitrary to say the least; Billie Bean had harsher words. The job of MLS is to corral and control talent so they can't be free agents until after their first 6 year contract; the salary cap is what ensures the billionaires ROI. Pro/rel rewards small towns for their support and loyalty. How loyal do you suppose these fans are to the management that fncked them in the vrse: st Louis rams, Houston oilers, Oakland raiders, LA raiders, Baltimore colts, Cleveland browns, SJ earthquakes, Chivas, San Diego Chargers and dozens more.
Also Brighton to Newcastle in the uk is more like 7-8 hours by coach these guys fly by chartered plane
Okay, I was 100% in favor of Pro/Rel until I heard you explain it. The REASON I wanted Pro/Rel was because of the BS play you get from teams that are "out of race". For example, this year, the play in the Leeds United final season game was AMAZING since they avoided relegation with literally 2 minutes left in the game. It was simply fantastic. However, now we move to MLS and my home team is Chicago Fire...This year...They're dead last in the Supporters Cup race right now. It's early so they're not "out of it" yet BUT if they do, I feel the play will suffer because they have nothing to play for. Why, because ALL of our Division 1 sports do this. NFL? Out of the playoffs, "play the 3rd string and please don't win so we can get a better draft position. " It's garbage, and IMHO, a middle finger to fans. I thought the ONLY solution would be Pro/Rel...
BUT...Your information on geographical considerations never popped into my brain. You're right. Pro / Rel wouldn't be as simple as we all think.
I mean, most of the league has comparable features. Supporters Cup = PL Champion, MLS Cup = FA Cup (Sort of) MLS Cup and Supporters Cup = Invite to CONCACAF which would be = UEFA Cup...
So, in theory we have many of the same types of battles and there IS something to play for other than just the "superbowl" of Soccer. What we in the US have to figure out is HOW do we keep teams in the fight when they're on the bottom? Honestly, this needs to happen in all of our pro-level sports. MLS, NFL, MLB, NHL and NBA. Maybe we could go with Conference Level Pro/Rel? I don't know, but I hope they can figure it out.
I appreciate the comment, Dave. One thing to consider... while pro/rel does produce excitement at the bottom of the table, playoff systems like the NFL and NBA produce excitement in the middle of the table for teams looking to make the playoffs. Then there's excitement for essentially half the league as the playoffs begin. In Pro/Rel, you theoretically get excitement at the top and bottom of the table, though in reality there are often outliers at the very top and very bottom of the table. A good example would be Bayern and Furth in the Bundesliga this year. So in my mind both systems produce excitement, it's just about where in the table that excitement is distributed. With Pro/Rel you get a Leeds squad battling out of relegation. With Playoffs you get an underdog making a run. Just different.
@@YankReport Very interesting perspective. I 'd have to agree with you again.
I will say that I do really like the MLS' two champions in one league system. (MLS Cup and Supporters Cup)
Really, if you think about it, we do have some of the same battles as all teams are fighting for at least the top 7 spot of their conference to get into the "MLS Cup". While we have the general competition of the Supporters Cup. To me it feels like PL Championship (Supporters Cup) and the MLS Cup(as the FA Cup) and the CONCACAF championship for UEFA Championship. So, the more I look at the structures...The more similar they appear. Though, I guess I always looked at Pro/Rel as a way for Team Joe Blow to get to the top without already being a billionaire. Meaning, anyone really has a shot to go pro. The MLS...There is no chance. You MUST be a wealthy team to get in.
To paraphrase Ian Malcolm: "Your Fans Were So Preoccupied With Whether Or Not They Could, They Didn’t Stop To Think If They Should.”
I really don't see promotion & relegation as something needed, or even advantageous. Just because European soccer is more established, does not mean we need to adopt everything done by the European leagues.
it's not about following Europe. All leagues in the world follow the same pattern because it's more entertaining.
@@josephsade3423 If entertainment is your only reason than Pro/Rel is pointless especially from a financial side
@@fivehundrediq5212 care to explain why?
Where are the behind the scenes?
Hahaha. Nobody has to know about that.
I've followed professional soccer in North America since right after the 1966 World Cup and have seen so many clubs come and go, entire leagues come and go. That the lower level of professional ball on a continental scale has still not established itself is reason enough to think this is a pipe dream and the idea that our top league was established as a single entity and that nobody involved in it has ANY reason to want to move to aPro/Rel system is reason enough to scoff at this nonsense... it simply isn't something that any establish money person wants to see, there is no pressure for it coming from the USSF or FIFA, the players aren't pushing it either... so who in their right mind thinks this is actually ever gonna happen? This will remain a pipe dream supported by people who have virtually no skin in the game fooling themselves about things they just wish would happen... no some things say like forging closer ties to CONMEBOL and eventually like Mexico taking part in Copa America or Copa Libertadores I can see happening but Pro/rel just is not something that is ever gonna happen here. Hell this recent little fling with the idea of establishing a European Super League is argument enough that even where Pro/Rel is well established the money people hate it and would trash it if they could.
Can't disagree with any of that. Thanks AlfredIceMan.
The biggest issue is league restructuring. Convincing a bunch of obscenely rich guys to share resources and risk with a bunch of merely filthy rich guys... tough ask.
I once had a conversation with a man who is, if not a billionaire, very nearly a billionaire. The thought that keeps him awake at night is not becoming poor... it's being less rich.
For that reason, I believe that any potential pro/rel system would have to be more comprehensive than wins, draws, and losses. It would have to include measures of financial stability and club commitment to communities.
Examples:
What does the balance sheet look like?
How comprehensive is the club's academy?
Does the club have a pitch of its own, or do they play in a minor league baseball park?
What is the stadium capacity, and what is the average attendance?
What is the level of commitment and participation of supporter groups? What is the general level of community engagement?
Finally, make promotion/relegation contingent upon a three year rolling evaluation. In other words, there is promotion and relegation every year, but it's based upon the previous three year's metrics. Anyone can have a single bad year. Anyone can catch lightning in a bottle. But it takes futility to be on a three year slide, just as it takes excellence to sustain three years of winning, growth, and community engagement.
Finally, in the issue of infrastructure, I say that it depends on what constitutes infrastructure. To my mind, the basis is simple... existing professional clubs in cities with populations sufficient to sustain attendance figures of 15,000-30,000. There are currently ~ 90 professional clubs in the US. Most of them are in cities of 250,000 or greater. Let's say that 75 of them could, with good marketing, pull off that 15,000 attendance figure... That's sound infrastructure for a 3 league, pro-rel pyramid.
To the haters who say that it's impossible, I say nonsense. It is unlikely. But not because it's difficult. The only hurdle that matters is convincing obscenely rich men that the financial security blanket they deny to working people, should be denied to them, as well. In other words, perform, or hit the road.
Your system wouldn’t work in MLS for two reasons…in their 26 year existence, The MLS has had 15 new Champions, so by your system how do you determine who gets relegated in a league that competitive? #2 Every MLS team is located in a major American city who majority of them have new soccer specific stadiums, to guarantee sellouts also MLS attendance has actually doubled by 57% over the last 10 years
@@fivehundrediq5212
No matter how competitive and balanced, there will always be 2-3 teams which do the worst over any period of time. Calculations of point totals are computed as they are at present in every league in the world.
The idea of adding the financial component isn't a true necessity from a footballing perspective. But from a league perspective, owners have a vested interest in the financial contributions and viability of the other owners. Some cybernerd can gin up an algorithm which factors in both club competitiveness as well as financial health/commitment.
It's doable. It makes great soccer sense. It actually makes great business sense - unless you own a club which both loses AND fails to carry the financial water.... in which case, take the bus and go back to the kiddie table.
Yeah even of they eventually do add it. It won't be exactly the same as in Europe. It won't be 3 teams going down/up at a time. MLS is all about stability so they would utilize pro/rel in the most stable way possible. Most likely would be 1 team going down/up every 3 years. Or something along those lines. It could also be a point based system where teams finishing last get -points and after getting so many they would be relegated. Basically MLS higher ups and team owners would only be willing to do it if it gave them more of a chance to avoid being relegated.
Plus a big problem is that MLS makes most of its money from expansion. That is just not sustainable in the long term. It can't just keep expanding indefinitely. So they need to find a different way to make money. Gate receipts/merch are only so much. It seems MLS is really betting on being able to consistently sell on players for big fees and that could work. But in the end what is gonna be needed is TV money. If MLS becomes dependent on TV money then pro/rel would have to be implemented to keep rating high. That is the only way they would ever do it.
You bring up some good points. I didn't really get into it in this video, but MLS is not exactly out of the woods yet as far as revenue and the upcoming TV contract negotiations are incredibly important.
That is just putting lipstick on a pig, No owner isn’t going to sign up for a system that prevents them from getting guaranteed money every year
@@fivehundrediq5212 How much money are owners making from their teams? And where is this "guaranteed money" coming from? Gate receipts? TV contracts?
@@americansoccerunited TV deals, Media Marketing, Sponsorships
I think it would be much more realistic and viable for the MLS to just form a MLS 2 once they have enough teams (I mean they already have way too much teams compared to European leagues). That would enable them to promote both leagues centrally and start from scratch with relatively high publicity for the second tier as the teams in it would all have been able to grow in the MLS. My proposal would be to just found MLS 2 with, say, the season 2030 and have the lower half of each 2029 (or to maybe be a bit fairer, average positions from 2027-29) conference get relegated, keeping the same conference structure for each league. Now, I do actually favor a league as an independent entity to the clubs, but I just don't think that's realistic to happen anytime soon.
If we already have a "Major League Soccer" why on Earth would we need a second?
It would be like implying one isn't really "Major" which would defeat the purpose of the name...
If you want soccer to work in the United States, you have to present it in a way American fans are used to. MLS is modeled after the NFL, not European football leagues.
@Pissed Bob Ross that’s not what I’m saying and you missed the point. All professional sports leagues in North America rather it be NBA, NFL, MLB or NHL are structured the way MLS is structured. It’s what North American fans are used to and if you want it to work in North America, you have to present it in a way fans already understand. If MLS would’ve debuted their first year with just a table, no playoffs and pro/rel like European leagues, it wouldn’t have had a chance and folded.
What MLS needs to do is create 4 additional spots in MLS for the 2nd division league (USL 1) to join in. 2 for the eastern conference and 2 for the western conference. That is what the US Euro owners tried to do with the European Super League and it would apply better to the MLS current structure anyways. Eventually they will have to transition to a full Promotion/Relegation structure.
Is there enough people playing football for such a model. The relegation system only works till a critical mass has been reached. MLS is almost like an incubator, without which the teams will financially fail. If anyone can adopt the the relegation system, it has to be MLB or NBA.
No you are wildly wrong what is eventually going to happen is that Pro/Rel is going to die eventually and the superior economic model is going to win.
I think the only way MLS allow promotion and relegation is the fact they include a huge amount of teams like 30 at least and themselves divide the same league between 15 for one division and 15 for second so maybe is the only way they can still protecting their franchise interests
It’s still a financial disaster
As long as they don't fix the franchise stuff and make it merit-based MLS isn't gonna move forward.
It's moving forward regardless over time...
But replacing one bad team with another bad team every year wouldn't improve things anyway...
I don't think there should be pro/rel in MLS. The thing I enjoy about the MLS is it has a unique way of doing things, it's a novelty coming from European football. I love the American style names, tailgating, drafts etc. It feels like the MLS is just trying to copy the EPL now which I think is a mistake because it will only draw unfavorable comparison. The EPL system (including pro/rel) ultimately results in a few very rich clubs dominating, what I love about the MLS is there is parity in the league. Sure you could have say galaxy and DC being the Man U and Chelsea of the MLS, winning everything, getting the money, getting the best players, and winning again, but to me that just gets boring. For even worse examples look at Germany, Italy or France, with just one team dominating. So I suppose it's a matter of taste, do you want a few great teams and a lot of mediocre ones, or do you prefer a league of good teams where it's more open ended and less predictable? Me I like the latter, I find it more exciting, but again it's probably a matter of taste.
That's true. The idea that your home team is just never going to be in position to compete for championships seems a bit uncompetitive. But many Europeans have said the closed system is uncompetitive.
I've heard that too, this trope that teams won't want to win because they won't get relegated. Maybe the manager might consider that, but I doubt any player will want to lose, for the sake of their own competitive nature, rivalry, their career, and not to mention the fans. Anyway the ESL drama has been good because it has stirred up a much needed discussion about the game and the imbalance between teams.
Excellent breakdown
Much appreciated
I just kinda dont see what pro/rel adds to the league other than just trying to be more European. Maybe its just my American sports brain talking but I've never really understood why European football purposely decreases parity in their leagues and in doing so widens the gap between bad teams and good teams. I know pro/rel system would make games between the teams near the bottom and maybe increase revenue for those games.
One of the big arguments is that MLS clubs can stagnate as losing is not really penalized. It's also true that if your MLS team is not in Playoff contention there's no real reason to pay attention. Both sides have their advantages and disadvantages.
@@YankReport I could see if a team finishes in the bottom 3 for three years straight, not due to poor injury luck, but that there's evidence of bad ownership practices (team salaries below the cap, no DP's, won't fire coach, internal corruption... something like that), the league ownership could vote to give them 2 seasons to right the ship or leave the league. Would we still have the Detroit Lions if the NFL did that?
@@YankReport The problem with the argument is that it is based on the theory, and I might even say the propaganda, on what Pro/Rel does for a league. The problem with the theory is there is pretty much no evidence that the "penalty" does anything favorable for the European domestic leagues.
In practice, a club either has the money to invest or it doesn't. If it tries to invest money it doesn't have, the penalty ensures that in the long run this guarantees bankruptcy. And if the club is thrifty and responsible, the penalty ensures it's finances are unpredictable and erratic. Whatever the theory is, the result everywhere in Europe has been a program where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, resulting in a complete lack of competition where 2-4 teams are competitive and the rest exist only to channel money (often borrowed money) upward to the big clubs. Meanwhile, 25 English pro teams - including some that competed at the Premiere level - have gone bankrupt in the last 10 years alone.
The situation got so bad that even the EPL realized it couldn't keep doing it that way, because the fans were yawning when the last time Small Town FC beat Big City United was 60 years ago before TV contracts, so they introduced profit sharing agreements and "parachute payments" to teams being relegated to take some of the sting out of it. The result has been only marginally successful. While naïve fans might point to the rise of Manchester City or Leicester City as proof of a high level of competition in the EPL, the truth is that if you look at both teams they didn't actually come out of nowhere. They were purchased at bargain basement prices by foreign investors who saw them as viable large market teams that had potential return on investment. "Cinderella" Leichester City when it did its unprecedented run was basically as well funded as the Big Six teams owing to investment from Thailand.
Thus what really makes the EPL "competitive" (depending on what you mean by that word) is that there are plenty of Princes out there for whom investing in a soccer team is like investing in race horses. The point is that it is a rich person's hobby, and not to make money.
That however is going to come to an end. Investors are getting tired of losing money on some of the biggest brands on the planet, and they are going to demand soccer work more like a business. That means pro/rel is doomed even in Europe.
If you want to see what Euro stagnation looks like, take a look at Everton. Or take a look at the entire Bundesliga.
@@celebrim1 and on the flip side there's a ton of examples of worst to first franchises in the US.
@@YankReport Exactly, the closed leagues are more dynamic and more competitive.
Pro/Rel can only exist in a single sport nation where that professional sport represents the only sporting entertainment product available. In a nation like the USA or Australia, if you had a sports league one by Bayern Munich every year, people would just change the channel and watch another sport.
nice video thank you
Thank you Dillinger!
Despite its merits, there is tremendous headwind in US for pro/rel. Can something easier be instituted to incentivize clubs to perform? Is "making the playoffs" motivation enough? Could a lot more money from an external tourney be given to top regular season teams? Say a much more lucrative concacaf. A crazy thought, could the playoffs actually be this said external separate tourney that occurs intermittently over the following season? Puts more emphasis on Supports Shield...
That would be really, really cool. Though that's more or less what the US Open Cup is supposed to do.
Yeah you're right. Others mentioned a variant... Which is split mls in east and west (say 20 clubs each side), with top 4 on each side playing for a super cup (likes Champions League). 5-8 each could play for a lower cup as well (Europa League)
@@szscottb I think there is going to be an MLS/Liga MX super cup at some point. It just makes too much sense for it not to happen. MLS needs Liga MX brand recognition and Liga MX needs MLS' financial stability.
Making the playoffs *should* be enough... but MLS doesn't utilize the playoffs as well as they should.
The new league MLS announced that will compete with USL seems a nod to the way future, where there is a team in a bazillion US towns that could play into top league
If, as some people say, involved parties in Europe are starting to look in the mirror and review the future of Pro/rel, such as the big clubs did when they tried to allow the Super League to make more safe money, then is it worth incorporating Pro/rel here at all, which could be slowly trending downwards in the mind of wealthy Europeans involved? The common people are powerful, but how long can these clubs cater to their desire to preserve history, tradition, and the decidedly "best way" to grow the sport, over the basic need for more money just to continue on? We can't blindly introduce pro/rel here, much less when there is uncertainty as to its future decades down the line.
It's a valid question. Especially as the game grows more global and the dependence on foreign TV money continues to increase. The foreign markets have no connection with the non-marquee teams and the gap continues to grow.
Pro/Reg but with playoffs -mls fan in the 🇵🇭🇵🇭
Why can't the MLS have its own culture, why are US soccer fans always chasing European models? It makes the league unique. Leagues in South America have their own quirks and styles different from Europe as well.
This model isn’t European but is literally universally used. America & India are the only major countries without pro/rel with India changing that soon also
@@BlueIvory4 and?
I think you got the perspective wrong. You are watching this from the top teams prospective. But I think you should watch this from bottom up. Adapting the europe league system to the us this would mean that there is:
A league for every district where the best teams get promoted to the:
2. state league (e.g. called "texas 2. league") from where they get promoted to the:
1. state league (e.g. called "texas 1. league" equivalent to the Premier League or the bundesliga)
And then only the winners of the 50 different state leagues would be playing a tournament each year called the "American Champinions league" where the best team of the US is determined. Maybe there should be a qualification round in between for the different regions (eg. north west, north east, ...) to reduce travel times, but these are only minor ajustments.
So as long as you dont win your state league, you will only play at a state level and you dont have to travel to the other side of the continent.
And all of this has to grow from the bottom up. So the regional (some of them are amateurs) teams have to organize themselves to create this district leagues which have promotion/relegation. And as they will not be able to play in the existing leagues (like MLS) they will figure out how to find out who is the best among themself. If this happens, I guarantee that after some years they will stomp the MLS into obscurity.
The top league's perspective is really the only one that matters...
@@davepazz580 Why?
Because they are the ones that generate the most money for the sport in the country here and now..
You don't see MLB being dictated by what minor league MLB teams want or need... it's the other way around (as it should be).
@@davepazz580 ok, this way the us will never be good in soccer. Its not about "generating the most money" but to generate a infrastructure which will garantee the best teams to win. There should be no save space for any team.
For me its very strange that the us - where capitalism is almost a cult - in sports always creates these non-competative leagues.
Infrastructure for proper player development is very necessary I agree... but I don't think that is an issue having to do with the US lower-leagues.
MLS announced they will create it's *own* side league specifically for player development (as opposed to having their developmental teams play in the NASL and USL).
Not sure what you meant by "always creates these non-competitive leagues"... how exactly are they not competitive?
MLS had so many teams, just divide it into two div by last standing and boom you have MLS pro-rel league :)
Making or not making the playoffs is already pr/rel enough...
Look, I’m Brazilian and I’m going to give my opinion: the USA problem that I see in relation to football or ''soccer'', are two, the lack of competitiveness, because without relegation, you have only a few important games, the playoffs and finals. If the fifth place is competing for a place with the fourth, but the fourth will play against the last placed, the last one does not care about the game, he has nothing to lose. but when you have the risk of falling, maybe your salary/sponsorship will be cut, you have a lot more at risk, this stimulates competition, so it will be a more difficult game, because even if he is the last placed, he will give life in the game...and problem two is money, apparently you don’t have that for fear of breaking the market, "if his team goes down he will stop investing" maybe... but there will also be people investing in small teams to reach the major leagues, more sponsorships, that way it may even help the sport's growth in the country, wouldn't it be nice if you had a team from your small town competing for real? American teams don't know how to play to get a draw, you can clearly see with the World Cup qualifiers in 2018, this is because they have nothing to lose with the defeat, so it's "okay" and as for this excuse of distance, it is bullshit, stop looking at the European league, and look at the South American for example, or even just the Brazilian one, we are a huge country too and with more travel difficulties, less money and we are drastically better... as long as you do not do this you will be fated to always fight for just a place in some championship and nothing more ------ in Brazil we have the league A (20 teams) B (20 teams) C (20 teams) and D (amauter - alot of teams) each division 4 get demoted and 4 get promoted
Hey Pedro! I actually looked at the Brazilian league to see how they handled Pro/Rel b/c like you said Brazil is a huge country geographically. I noticed almost all the teams are on the East coast with the bulk of the teams in 3 cities. I don't know a ton about Brazil, but why aren't other parts of the country represented in the league?
I also have read that Brazil has a huge tradition of state tournaments because traveling throughout the country was too difficult until recently. I think the regional tournament concept would be interesting in MLS.
I'm not too familiar with the Brazilian sports landscape. Does Brazil have leagues in other sports that are way more popular and have more money and are far more established? I think a lot of people outside the US tend to forget that soccer is less popular than the NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL, and College Football...
@@David-pf9xe Brazil is poor. Money isn't available, even for soccer.
@@YankReport Where did you get the idea that the bulk of the teams are from 3 cities? That's not even true for Serie A.
@@YankReport Most people live on the east coast of Brazil. The living is hard in the interior, especially in the Amazon, with little infrastructure.
It would be very exciting but, considering the MLS owners priorities i'm still surprised they haven't copied the same tournament's scheme of some of the americans leagues like Mexico, i mean having 2 tournaments by year.
5:53 2 east teams go to the USL EAST 2 west TEAMS go to USL WEST
easy, plus there is already a good 2nd (and almost 3rd tier) USL CHAMPIONISHP AND USL LEAGUE ONE
MLS should go continental (talk directly to FIFA and go after CONCACAF), merge Mexico's and Canada's football managements and allow USL to manage the sport domestically, under MLS standards.
That's how MLS would actually become MAJOR.
Do some research about how it's done in Brazil, a country as big as USA, with 4 divisions in football.
Check out a map of where those teams are actually located in Brazil.
@@YankReport I am from Brazil. It works. It has flaws, like TOO MANY GAMES IN A ROW. But it works.
Cheers from Brazil. Saudações Vascaínas. 💢
Lets stay on planet earth here, Pro/Rel exists only because of the conditions that existed before the division system was founded, before then every single club could play anyone else, modern Division seven or Eight teams would play teams that would be the equivelent of the Premier league champion, simply because they were neighboring towns. England tried to get around this with the FA cup, but ultimately the division system was founded. this is very similar to the system of Pro/Rel the United States used in baseball in the 1860s and 1870s, but it was abandoned for a very simple reason. Small town team could not afford to travel, and this was also a time when baseball was something they did in the evenings, they would work their farms or jobs during the day. The existing monetary problems of Pro/Rel would only be worse in the United States. If a team based in Wichita managed to promote their way to the MLS it would more or less bankrupt itself. This is because the United States has a sharpe drop off in capacity of Sports markets once you get away from the 47 largest Cities/Metropoliton areas.
Fortunately there is a much better solution, one that Baseball figured out nearly 60 years ago: the Tier system. The Teams do not change tiers. MLB teams remain MLB teams forever or until folding. Below the MLB is Triple A baseball, based in cities like St.Paul(the MLB club is in its twin city Minneapolis, but Minneapolis-St.Paul is an economic jugernaught among Mid West cities for its size) and Mid-Major cities like Toledo(OH), Des Moines, and more famously Durham NC. ABout half of the cities currently hosting a Triple-A team could in theory host an MLB team, but for Geographic and economic reasons do not(Interstingly many of these cities do host a MLS team, since MLS is more in favor of clustering the teams than the MLB). The other half of the cities definitely are too small a market for the MLB.
The important thing about the tier system is that it directly addresses the distance issue, the MLB travels the entire breadth of the United States, but Triple A is divede into Two Leagues that are regional, while some travel into the other league and inter league play does happen, it is very limited. Below Triple-A is Double-A, which is hosted by a number off Minor cities and is made of three leagues of even smaller regions than Triple-A, instead of two leagues covering the entire country, Double-A only covers three reigons, Northeast, Southeast, and South Central United States, leaving roughly half the country without Double-A. There are 30 teams in the MLB, Triple A and Double A, and all three levels are owned by 30 distinct fanchises. The players in the leagues are promoted and relegated, not the teams, the players make the grind all the way to the MLB, and for a period of time in their career will bounce between tiers until they have reached their level of competence.
Even further down is High A, and Low A Baseball, both also have 30 teams again tied to a MLB franchise. And further below is the Rookie League which primarily exists to evaluate and develope Rookie players, both Drafted and undrafted.
I think the bigger question should be "How can we make MLS more competitive and push teams and players more?" I agree that a Pro-Rel system will probably never happen for MLS, but maybe we could change the format (eg. Team with most points at end of season wins the trophy, so do away with playoffs) and maybe add some kind of incentive for teams near the bottom of the table to keep playing hard towards the end of the season. Also, extend the season length. MLS's season is short compared to most European leagues. There's too much off-time for these players and while they're taking their holiday, other players around the world are still playing games, making them much better players. MAybe MLS ould still keep the playoff system, but not for the MLS Cup, maybe for a secondary cup, as I feel the playoffs does not really reward the most consistent team of the season.
Playoffs do a terrible job of finding the best team, but they do create drama and solve the issue of forcing all 28 teams to travel across the entire country.
@@YankReport very true
One argument in favor of Pro-Rel is that it keeps more fans interesting in the season, for longer. Well, in the U.S. and Mexico leahues, we have PLAYOFFS... which means MANY teams/fans remain interested for longer in the season. The "drama" of who will finish in last place isn't needed. So if you have no Playoffs and no Pro-Rel... that's the worst scenario.
Just don't do pro-reg for the wrong reasons.
1. Don't do it because the rest of the world does it
2. Don't do it based on some unsubstantiated claim of better player performance.
3. Don't do it on the basis of insecurity. Read #1 and #2.
And those are the only possible reasons why any League would choose to add Pro-Rel in the modern day.
@@davidday2373 Tell us about the time United & Chelsea got relegated?
@@fivehundrediq5212 I couldn't care less about Indian Cricket or British Association-Foottall. Whatever works there, works there... for the U.S., Pro-Rel is a silly notion, fruitless.
@@davidday2373 So basically #3.
@@TickleMeElmo55 MLS should add Quarter breaks to the game (2 minutes max), before adding Pro-Rel. Increase ad revenue... help pay for even better players. Improve MLS that way.
Nao falo espanhol, mas falo português. É quase a mesma coisa. Excelente vídeo!
Lol. Might as well be Mandarin.
@@YankReport 🤣🤣
Great content!!
Simple answer... so long as single entity rules... no it isn't. The idea that a club is limited in the amount of money they can spend and of just whole they can and can not sign how can you hold a team responsible for how it performed and hence be rewarded or punished by being relegated to a lower league. The reality is nobody in the league is itching to do any of this and while some fans call for it there is no push coming for change at all.
Simply reality nobody who has ponied up millions of dollars to enter the league just to see some minor league club spending a fraction to get into the league, they simply are not willing to risk losing their place.
Clearly the model will be more akin to Baseball's minor league system, i.e. having a development league. So signing a player and loaning him out to a USL club, but again the single entity aspect limits this as well.
The reality is that financially a minor club moving "up" would have to come up with a much greater budget and likely the only way that could occur is to sell some of the "equity" of said club meaning the "owners" losing some or all of the control of their own club in the process. The smaller club would need to find a larger place to play and that means spending more to rent somebody else's facilities and very likely having little or no control of the food service involved as the sub Tennant. The travel costs also would increase, think of moving at least three dozen people or more by plane for each and every match. Their budget would require millions for transportation of their staff and equipment and likely at least at first little or no sponsorship to lessen costs.
Now reverse this scenario for the top tier side all of a sudden facing having to play in some regional minor league. They already have a stadium agreement that they can't break, yet now very likely they have fewer die hard fans going through the turnstiles paying to see lesser sides so a loss in revenue, whatever TV contract they had before as a top club is now gone so more Revenue loss, whatever player contracts they had still are in effect so costs don't drop and there is no guarantee that they make it back to the big time. Look at how far say Nottingham Forrest has fallen from it's peak in the late 70s to where it is now... yes it still has the same name but it simply is a shadow of it's former self, and this is in a country that has a truly deep history of supporting the club system in Europe.
This recent flirtation with a European Super League shows how even the established clubs of Western Europe are loth to risk Promotion and Relegation as a business model. Do you seriously think anyone in MLS would ever risk their investment over something like this?
I for one have heard this talk from people who have no financial skin in the game for years and have to laugh at anyone thinking it ever will be embraced here by any of the money people... ever. As it is our best and brightest players have been avoiding signing to play here instead going for the brass ring in Western Europe and I don't see that changing. So long as the pay scale and level of competition is substantially higher signing at a young age overseas the future McKinnies and Sargents and Pulisic's are just not going to be here in the first place and the idea that their MLS side could go "down" and risk going out of business entirely is never going to be a real draw for even our own elite players let alone world superstars.
I for one do not think anyone in MLS would ever risk their investment. It would have to be another upstart league growing and eventually overtaking MLS. Which is super improbable, but so is MLS adopting pro/rel.
Pro/Rel is possible (neigh, necessary!) in Europe because European football culture is bottom-up. There are local teams in every village, playing in local lower divisions. The higher up the ladder you climb, the larger the geographical uptake area (but also the more money). The top clubs in Europe are just the local clubs that became the best over time. Thus I believe the best way to change American soccer is to work long-term and bottom-up. Make it cheaper to play for kids, encourage local teams, build public pitches, etc.
I get the theoretical reasoning. It's the practical that's the issue. How do you address the points brought up in the video?
@@YankReport yes there are many obstacles to overcome, but there are solutions for it. Distance: yes there can be burden of distance unless for 1 relegated team in East 1, another team that have won division East 2 will promote (in my mind there should be 2 Leagues, they cross each other only for the Cup and the Champions League and maybe Community Shield, winner D1 East vs winner D1 West). Stadiums and securing the finances: I live in Belgium and here every 2/3 years number of teams change due to financial instability of the clubs, but have found a solution for it: even if your team wins a promotion your club must have a stadium capacity of min. 10k secure all players + staff wages for next season etc. You can also work with academy, for example LAFC plays in D1 West, LAFC Academy can only play in D3 or under. Local-State-Conference-National Divisions. Most of the time local teams are only ment as Sunday league teams aka local pub team, it also helps them to run their business and support local businesses and I love it. At this MLS generates billions and only few elitist clubs get the fruits. Take San Jose for example, club doesn't compete for the title nor invest money, so what's the reason for it to be in the MLS? Money
They have youth clubs in every city in the US practically and their suburbs but they stop at 20yo generally. This is because of the hold NCAA has if you want to attend college. It's odd, but there could be an open division to start for low pro and those teams can add a pro level team but it would need to be structured all over the country and that takes time and money, which a lot of these clubs don't have if you want to get rid of the pay to play system... it's a constant struggle between proper development and league expansion.
i like the English Premier League
I really want it but not yet. I’d say in 15ish years seriously consider it.
The league was never created with that intent... it was specifically designed to be a single-entity league where teams are paid franchises that can't just get up to go play in another league.
There's not enough teams yet. They need to create a system with ability to start smaller club teams without the $325mil buy in.
I have to disagree with you there my man I'm from New York City and there are many historical leagues in the country that can be part of tier 4 and below of the Pro/Rel chart. For example, the NY area has the Cosmopolitan League and many other states have leagues like this. Just look NYC has 5 pro clubs around the area from what I know. NYCFC, NY Red Bulls, Queensboro FC (USL), Manhattan Soccer Club (USL 2), and New York Cosmos (NISA). However, I do agree about how the $325 is a huge burden for the Pro/Rel system to happen.
In Europe it's not uncommon for teams in the lower tiers to forego promotion because they wouldn't be able to handle the travel costs. I could see that being a reoccurring issue for the lower tiers in America. Traveling in this country for lower tier teams is just brutal.
@@YankReport That's because the lower tiers in Europe are usually amateur tiers and not because of the travel coasts. As a comparison Germany hasn't even the size of Montana, travel coasts are not really an issue for the lower tiers. That some lower tiers forego promotion is because these amateur clubs simply can't afford the high amounts of money needed to fullfil some standards they'll need when the get up to a higher tier league, like security, stadium lighting, stadium modernisation and so on and so forth.
But I agree the travel expenses for lower tiers in the USA would be brutal given the sheer size of your nation.
the owners pay don garber's salary
It should be noted that according to FIFA regulations closed leagues are, in principle, not allowed and furthermore leagues are not allowed to have teams from more than one country. This could be a serious problem for MLS further down the road as the teams will have trouble taking part in FIFA-sanctioned international competitions.
It all depends in which direction MLS should go. If it is enough to have a domestic league where teams are intentionally made equally mediocre and basically plays friendlies, then the current structure is probably fit for purpose. But if you want to have a league where at least some teams that can compete internationally and attract and keep the best players, then the traditional US pro-sport setup is not going to work.
Gotta be noted though that a lawsuit looking to force pro/rel on MLS failed and FIFA granted USSF a World Cup. I don’t think the US will be in hot water with fifa anytime soon.
FIFA's rules are for "clubs"... MLS teams are not clubs, they are franchises and there are real fundamental differences between the two.
@@YankReport Who forced the lawsuit?
Do you really think MLS would want to risk losing a team in a huge market to gain one in a small market?
Not at all
What if... expansion teams are put into an MLS 2 with pro/rel, and you can't go lower than MLS2.
MLS stands for "Major League Soccer"...
So what would be the point of a league below MLS also calling itself "Major"?
Better to just keep everyone in the same top league but divided into conferences and weed out the best from the rest by means of the playoff system...
I have to disagree with you, it's definitely more possible than you think. The biggest obstacle, like you mentioned, is financial, but that could easily be fixed with an influx of cash. Now, the hard part about that is where the cash will come from
To be fair though, if there were a market for it the cash would be there.
Biggest obstacle is that PRO-REL is just a contrivance with no benefit or true appeal in modern sports.
@@aphus8504 That's England. Thats the only place where ProRel works. Theres a long tradition there, its entrenched in the culture. Are the 2nd Divisions in SPAIN or FRANCE well supported like in the UK?
@@davidday2373 Emotion & “Excitement” is the only the argument the Pro/Rel supporters have, but Financially it very unstable, & the fact the a European Super League almost happened tells you that the owners hate it,
@@fivehundrediq5212 But for whom? Excitement for FC Tulsa supporters, Hartford fans? The excitement is making a run in the Playoffs. If Europe what's excitement add Playoffs... let's turn the tables, see how much THEY like it. You add Playoffs, we'll add Pro-Rel 😉.
I just don’t see it. Americans are VERY notorious for not caring for secondary teams, even in big leagues. A Magic vs Wizards game isn’t going to do the numbers a Bucks vs Warriors game will. Relegation could be the end of clubs due to lack of interest. This could harm US sober more than is will help.
Heck, living in Minnesota, MN United was a playoff team last year, but with Emanuel Reynoso being suspended due to activity in Argentina, there has a STRONG possibility MN United finishes in the bottom 3 of MLS and would have been relegated. This would hurt soccer in a small market which can’t afford to be seen as irrelevant this early in the club’s history.
all i want is Louisville to have a playable team on fifa man
I don’t see it happening any time soon, the league is still relatively speaking new. American owners would never go for it, and the majority of sports fans in the US wouldn’t understand it.
It would definitely take some getting used to from the general sports audience in the US.
Pro-reg isn't rocket science. The general American audience can understand it.
@@TickleMeElmo55 If your team gets relegated you'd support a team in the other 5-6 sports leagues that doesn't use Pro/Rel though.
Ex: NYCFC got relegated? You still have the Knicks, Nets, Islanders, Rangers, Yankees, Mets, Giants, Jets and College Athletics to root for.
*Pro-reg isn't rocket science. The general American audience can understand it.*
Understand it yes... but getting passionate enough about it to increase national interest is quite another thing.
The natural tendency in American sports is to focus on and celebrate the winner... the top team and best players, the national spotlight is on the winners.
Pro/rel unnaturally forces people to look at who is at the bottom and performing *worst* every given year, which makes no sense and nobody really cares about anyway.
@@davepazz580 it’s not so much about the fans or audience, it’s 100% about the owners who will never go for it. US owners just tried to hijack European soccer with the super league, do you think any of them will allow relegation in the MLS?