No problem! It doesn't take me too long to adapt them from the script I write for these videos, so I'm trying to keep on top of doing it for all of them.
@@albertytube5547I believe there are quite a few services which offer to transcribe your videos for you which would be useful for people whose videos don't come with a script. AI captioning via voice to text is still pretty terrible especially for people who rely on it as an alternative to audio but it should be fairly easy to use AI to sync a script with a video so hopefully that encourages more people to make the effort. You can also pay for this service but there are tutorials out there for doing it yourself and I imagine once you've done it once it's easy to repeat the process. Adding them manually probably takes at least as long as watching the video so even though I don't rely on them personally I really appreciate the effort because everyone should be able to enjoy this sort of thing.
@@TaitsetThis site used to have community submissions which allowed the community to submit captions to some videos however it was alas taken away in September 2020.
I hope you have sent a copy of this video to both Ministers of Transport in S.A. and Vic., because it is absolutely excellent, well researched and offers a variety of solutions which could easily be implemented - if we don't have any sports stadia that "need" to be built. The railway services in this country have been allowed to run down over decades and it is only recently that we have seen some improvements. "The Overland" should be running daily - not twice weekly!
Everytime I plan a trip to Melbourne I want to, so badly, take the overland. But the timetable is just consistently the biggest killer. Drives me up the wall how much of a compromise the service is and the absolute car dependice of Keswick station is pathetic. Def gonna write to my mp now lmao. Fantastic breakdown of what can be done, ty.
I'm a massive rail-stan. I've caught the Overland to Stawell, to go to the Grampians. But that was a one way trip, and I work for myself so I was able to be flexible about when I went. But in the 2 trips I've taken to Adelaide, it just didn't match with even my quite flexible plans!
Absolutely agreed - Keswick is a huge pain to get to and from. I agree with the video about the connecting busses - it's baffling they don't have one, especially since the Ghan terminus in Darwin _does_ (Admittedly Darwin railway station is in an even worse location, but still - Journey Beyond are clearly capable of it)
Can’t believe, as an Adelaidean that this service has deteriorated so much. Back in the sixties there used to be a Second Division of the Overland, usually departing later than the main train and using very old rolling stock.
You got to get both the new state premiers to watch this, then it might change. And in your closing line we must get our MP aware and ask them to watch it, they also might get the premiers watching to . Thanks for that another great video
An excellent analysis. There are serious issues with Keswick Terminal. My wife & I arrived in Adelaide on the Ghan in February 2020 just as the pandemic was hotting up. Like most aboard the train we were astonished to be disembarked at Keswick, apparently dumped in the middle of nowhere. It was the only low point of an otherwise fantastic trip. We managed to get a taxi into Adelaide (having no idea how far we had to go) and find our hotel. I agree with you that the Overland needs to be more frequent. After a few days in Adelaide our plans were to move on to Melbourne and were getting ready arrange flights. We discovered the Overland purely by accident. A railfan, I knew of the existence of the Overland but thought the service had already ceased. I only found it was still providing running to Melbourne by pure chance. Advertising was almost non-existent. You cannot expect to sell tickets for a train if you don't tell people they are available! This may be a flaw of the tourism focus of Journey Beyond's marketing strategy. We travel by train anytime there is a service available that suits our needs but we almost missed out on this trip. We are in a position to directly compare the XPT with the Overland because we did a trip to Coff's Harbour by XPT in October 2019. The experience was very similar.
The Overland used to terminate at Adelaide Railway Station and where the casino is now used to be the waiting room. Darwin's train station is 32 kilometres from the middle of Darwin so it's not as bad as Darwin. The Overland used to be a daily overnight service but it was changed to a tourist train because not as many people were travelling on the Overland anymore. And the only reason the Overland is still running is because the Victorian government gives the train company millions of dollars to keep the service running.
I thought you did an excellent job of outlining problems and solutions for this train. I am a retired railroad conductor in the USA. My wife and I were in Australia only once but really enjoyed our trip. We rode the XPT from Sydney to Melbourne and were generally pleased with that service. I think in the short term the top priority would be increased frequency, ideally daily. Number two would be moving back into the old Adelaide station. We rode several of the Vline Velocity trains in Victoria. I think these trains would work for The Overland with better seating, increased seat pitch, and food service. Refurbished XPTs should fill the bill as well. I also agree that Vline would be much better at running the operation. We hope to get back to Australia someday...it's just that bloody loooong plane ride. We have not yet been to Adelaide so I hope some of the powers that be are paying addition and shed a little love on the Overland. We would much rather take the train there.
You are so right Wayne. I was a conductor on the real Overland back in the 70's, based in Melbourne, (we went right through to Adelaide, and the Adelaide crews came to Melbourne, trains in both directions passing at a little place called Diapur overnight.They ruinedthe old Adelaide station that's for sure by building a casino basically on top of it, and "moving" the station for interstate trains out of the city. That station now is like a ghost town, even when trains arrive and depart from there. Very sad indeed.
Canadian here. I've never been to Australia, but can see the uneasy parallel between certain trains of ours with yours. I sympathize with the historic problems of having to deal with the legacy of a "tangle of gauges" , to me it's surprising that your country's passenger rail network still exists at all today under those conditions and attitudes.
not all countries are like Canada lol but I too am often surprised when the bureachracy of Victoria gives way to actually useful infrastructure projects
Very well researched and I agree with all of your comments yes should be used as a submission to V,line I think the biggest problem here is that nobody actually wants it i’m talking about corporate companies or possibly some state governments However thank you very much for going to the time and effort and trouble of researching More people should see this video Regards Peter
Great video! I moved to Horsham from Melb at the start of the year, and despite being a huge train nerd, I’ve never been able to use The Overland because it’s never been convenient. Shockingly, most locals here are under the impression the train doesn’t run anymore. I can’t blame them. Personally, I’m hoping for the Spanish variable gauge solution that you mentioned. But any improvements at this rate would be incredible.
Yeah I'm From Horsham and moved to Melb, and I honestly thought the overland didn't exist, I would much prefer taking the train back home to see my family, but Vline only goes to Ararat and I cant stand taking the Bus to Horsham. So I drive, Begrudgingly
I used to live 10 minutes' walk away from North Shore station in Geelong and you'd be surprised how many people had heard of The Overland, but don't know it runs through Geelong, despite crossing over the level crossing next to the station countless times and having a mysterious "Platform 3" that is used exclusively for it.
The V/Line Coach that does run this service actually starts in Bendigo then goes through to Adelaide via Saint Arnaud (I'm one of the Coach Drivers that do it regularly). V/Line could run this service as far as Horsham then they train it to Adelaide and vise versa. Firefly are trying to get more frequent services between Ballarat and Nhill but V/Line won't budge. The Keswick end of the trip is a big problem and definitely an Achilles heal to the future if The Overland. Great video by the way.
Your channel is brilliant for those interested in/ fascinated by trains i.e. normal people. As a kid growing up in Melbourne during the 70's and 80's I benefited from my late father's love of trains. Most of Dad's family lived in Sydney. On a few occasions, we made the Christmas journey on the Southern Aurora. Dad would book two interconnected twin sleeping cabins and the staff would put our car on the last carriage. In fact, I seem to recall that when we reached Central, Dad would drive the car off the train himself into a convenient area designed for this purpose. These journeys remain true highlights of my childhood. In 1979, the decision was made to visit relatives in Perth, making the journey by rail. Even then, The Overland felt a bit neglected. Back then, it was necessary to take a genuinely awful passenger train from Adelaide to Port Augusta in order to meet the Indian Pacific. It was worth it though, both for the experience and the fact that The Indian Pacific was, even in 1979, a truly wonderful train. I went on to study Economics/Law at Monash during the era where just about everything was being privatised. There were many cases where both efficiency gains and competition were touted as reasons for privatisation. Often, this was not supported by economic theory. Thanks for a wonderful video.
In May 2023 I finally went on the Overland from Melbourne to Adelaide. It is a nice service but to make the trip work you need to make up for the short comings. They are no onboard Wifi (have a phone/device with a SIM card here) and no USB charge ports on seats (use a good portable power bank here) and concede that you only use this service one way (I went from Adelaide to Melbourne by the overnight Firefly bus and did a scary 3AM thing too). I used a taxi to get from the Parklands terminal to Adelaide Railway Station. On Firefly / V-Line buses they end at the country bus terminal in Franklin St and walk to the tram stop at Victoria Square and take the tram to Adelaide Railway Station.
A couple of friends and I went to Adelaie a few yesr back from Melbourne. They flew and I took the train. I sat in the bar, had a few drinks, read a book, enjoyed the scenery. It was great. They need to invest. The vid was great.
A good summary of the issues and potential solutions. I think you nailed the key problem in your summary, namely the need for federal and state government interest. It's simply not on their radar and not a current priority.
This was really fascinating. Your videos came up on my recommended recently and as a fellow Melbournian it’s great to see more Victorian content! Thanks for making this and I look forward to more future uploads!
Great video, we have a similar problem in Sydney where I had to go through The Keswick Conundrum myself! I was helping a support worker of mine to plan a trip that she was going from Sydney to Adelaide. She wanted to take the train as the plane although very fast, is very expensive. And the car, although _somewhat_ cheaper, and about the same time as the train, would have been really exhausting. So she wanted to take the Indian Pacific instead, I had a look and the cheapest ticket was about $664 one way (which now is $855 and can get as high as $1425 just for a Gold Twin, the lowest tier on the IP), and wouldn't have been convenient for her to make it for the event she was going, so instead she took the car. I think resuming services with NRT's making a service at least once a day extending from the current Broken Hill line would work! No matter what Railpage say, there are quite a few people who want to go Sydney-Adelaide, but can't afford the high prices, people will only start riding the train if it's cheaper than the plane (
A return flight from Sydney to Adelaide is only like $150 - $250 depending on how far out you book atm, barely more expensive than driving with fuel prices what they are.
I only learnt a few years back Mum and Dad got engaged in Peterborough and took a early dawn train to Adelaide to look for a Ring in Rundle Stree( mall now) . Now whats the best way for Disabled people to get their motorised Chairs on transport interstate?
I thought that The Overland was a goner but having watched this presentation, I am now reconsidering my attitude regarding its future. Considering the options presented here I believe that the Ararat based, V/locity option is a potential argument for a day service to Adelaide plus the Overland night sleeper service thru Southern Cross to Keswick Terminal. Comfort, reliability, and daily scheduling is the key for the night service. My wife and I travelled over 16,000 kilometres in the USA on the superliners mainly, and the comfort experienced was amazing; we tried to book sleepers at least three months ahead of our travel dates but already unavailable so we opted for coach class - the only option because there is only sleeper and coach class- as it turned out the seats of coach class were terrific for sleeping with fully adjustable leg support and space provided to walk around the feet of the adjacent passenger. The Ararat Station is now a bit of a standard gauge potential bridgehead for other services in western and northern Victoria - it is now the junction for Adelaide, Portland, Mildura (via Maryborough) and Geelong/Southern Cross. So it certainly is a potential jumping off point for a fast, (almost) express service to Adelaide providing a 'daylight standard' travel comfort, speed, reliability and definately daily frequency. There is much more that comes to mind but not enough space here so I ask the author of this informative video if it is possible to have a bit of an informal plebesite on the potential support for a campaign. BarryII
A very interesting topic! Just a few thoughts... I would suggest once a day is probably the best plausible option in the near term. To borrow another XPT example, Sydney to Brisbane (still a larger city pair than Melbourne-Adelaide) is operated once a day in each direction and there doesn't seem to be any movements to increase that frequency. With that frequency, you would effectively need to have a day trip in one direction and a night in the other, otherwise you have a train sitting around for a while at both ends. The Ararat connection is a good idea, but I'm not sure it's feasible for an overnight Adelaide-Melbourne trip. You'd either be telling people to wake up and transfer before dawn, or you end up arriving in Melbourne in mid-morning. Perhaps this ties into a Melbourne-Adelaide overnight, Adelaide-Melbourne daytime operating pattern. I'd also be interested in hearing your thoughts on the XPT replacement trains which AFAIK won't have any sleepers (so no option to "head to bed" - 4:00), and what consequences this would have.
@Vincent Chan - In the early 2000s the Overland did have an alternating timetable like you say, running in daylight eastbound and at night westbound. It really just means you have the disadvantages of night in one direction and disadvantages of day in the other direction. I reckon it's better to have day both ways or night both ways, using two trains, even if that does mean they're idle 50% of the time (still more use time than the current set!). I must admit I didn't think about the logistics of combining the Ararat change with a night service, but I'd probably argue that if you're running at night just don't worry about it - because the extra hour won't mean much. I like the look of the XPT replacement. It is a shame they don't have sleeping accommodation, but if they make them very comfortable it might not matter too much. The reality is only a small percentage of XPT passengers get a bed - I've never been in one of their sleeping cars, but will certainly try to do it at least once before they get replaced. I do like how the replacement are bi-mode, making the most of the large electrified interurban area in NSW.
@@Taitset Hey, People do 15 hour stints in economy on airlines. If a new long distance carriage had aircraft "premium economy" style seats, that could work quite well. And maybe "business class" style for an extra cost. I'd pay it!
@@richardwales7825 the Queensland long distance trains do have business-class-style seats (folding down for a bed overnight), which seemed to work pretty well when I used them a couple of years ago - I'd say it was worth it but I think it was a quite a bit more expensive than the "economy" seats.
I recall when Australian National ran a daily Bluebird from Mt Gambier to Adelaide. This service was made to three days a week and patronage dropped and the drop in patronage was used as an excuse to scrap the service altogether. Then the conversion of the main line isolating the Mt Gambier was the death knell. Ironic because when the Mt Gambier line was guage converted from NG to BG, steel sleepers had extra holes for SG conversion which was being discussed around Australia in the early ‘50s.
You hit the nail right on the head, very informative and great ideas on fixing this iconic train, I travelled on it in 1988, It should be more marketed like the Melbourne to Sydney service rather than comparing it to the "IP" and the Ghan.
Having traveled on the Overland, I agree with the points raise in the video comment. Since the Victorian State Government is currently providing subsidies for the Overland train, it would make sense that the service is operated by V/Line. I also agree that the V/Line Ararat to Southern Cross (Melbourne city) services can be integrated with the Overland timetable to operate as a co-share services with integrated fares between Ballarat, Melton, Bacchus Marsh, Ararat, etc to Adelaide. Also we need to think of the environment and the effects of reducing toxic emissions and non essential personal vehicle travel. An Overland standard carriage has 60 seats in a 2 aisle 2 seating configuration which can remove up to 60 non essential cars of the road. An Overland premium carriage has 36 seats in a 2 aisle 1 seating configuration which can remove up to 36 non essential cars of the road. There are no reasons why the Overland services can not be upgrade to a sustainable environmentally friendly 'scenic' travel experience. Lets do it. The 'How to Fix the Overland' video comment is similar to what is happening in New Zealand about how can New Zealand's 3 long distance 'scenic' long distance passenger trains be part of New Zealand national passenger travel network - publictransportforum.nz/articles/guest/tag/long-distance-trains
Nicely done! A possible interim solution for rolling stock would be to use the XPT trains that NSW are replacing, with appropriate refurbishing. Should do nicely for the next ten years or so whilst progressive infrastructure improvements and next generation train sets are sorted out.
The XPT carriagess have truly *terrible* seating. Very restricted reclining for any attempts at getting some sleep on an overnight service. No buffet car. For any travelling with a bicycle, bike must be boxed, pre-booked, and only *two* bikes per train. Just *don't* bring them in.
Excellent video! I rode The Overland back in 2009 from Melbourne to Adelaide. The section through the Adelaide Hills is breathtaking. There’s so much potential in this service, I hate that it’s been left to rot by government. Privatisation was a big mistake. Second biggest mistake was booting long-distance trains to Keswick, which has had the effect of Adelaide being written off as a destination for tourists and rail commuters. You notice how Journey Beyond/GSR never really features Adelaide in the scenic photos on their web site? It’s a real shame because it’s a charming city, the CBD is very walkable with many attractions, having long-distance trains pull into Adelaide Station right under the convention centre would be a dream. Maybe something the SA govt should be aiming for the state’s bicentenary? Instead passengers are left stranded out at dreary Keswick.
This is pretty minor compared to the infrastructure issues you talk about, but I feel like a night service would need some sort of sleeper option. If not separate cabins, at least a good lie-flat seat like in Tilt Train first class.
As having experienced both the 'old" The Overland & the 'new' The Overland Experience I found your video very interesting. The current timetable & time taken is a major problem, as is the fact that the current operators are more tourist-focused than public transport focused, as you highlight in your video. It is difficult to combine a scenic tourist train with an efficient & cost-effective public transport train - the focus is completely different as are the passenger's expectations. I suggest a slightly different solution. 1) The tourist part remains with the current operators but it is run as per the Indian-Pacific but from Melbourne to Perth via Adelaide one day a week as a full luxury tourist train. It provides 2 weekly trains to Perth one via Sydney/Broken Hill and the other via Melbourne/Geelong - just needs to come up with a nice marketing brand such as Tasman Indian or Indian Tasman? 2) VLine takes over The Overland with a 7-day-a-week public transport service running a day & overnight service in both directions. Night trains have again become extremely popular in Europe and in the USA - especially Amtraks long-distance trains. Trains provide quicker boarding, the potential to carry more luggage and operate to & from capital cities CBDs. Two major issues as you also highlighted relate to rolling stock & access to Adeloads CBD. In relation to rolling stock for long-distance trains (greater than 3 hours), VLine rolling stock is not 'fit for purpose', as you highlighted. As NSW is replacing its XPT fleet by next year, perhaps a short-term solution would be to purchase the current XPT fleet of say 3 sets, install Wi-Fi & individual charging sockets for each seat, and a livery change over. Whilst the fleet is over 40 years old it still younger than the current The Overland rolling stock. Using locos to haul passenger trains is very inefficient. Then the long-term solution is to purchase a specific long-distance passenger train retaining push/pull cabs at each end. The other problem is that intercity trains must operate from the CBD so yes a standard gauge line into Adelaide Terminal needs to be provided. I feel that a Melbourne to Perth via Adelaide luxury train has potential and that The Overland needs to be a public transport train with the potential to also carry tourists (as per XPT and the Qld coastal passenger trains do).
I’m a coach driver and connected Casino to Brisbane for years and replaced many broken XPT’s over the years. A fundamental solution is for V line to offer an express train or coach from Southern Cross Station to meet the Overlander during its trip for express passengers. The train would depart at 7am but the bus or express train leaves at 8:30am but they would both arrive at Ararat at the same time for example. The same could happen at Murray Bridge or wherever in SA. I think these long distance services are for getting people from regions into the cities and not an intercity service like it seems. Most of my passengers out of Brisbane were heading to Wauchope, Coffs, Taree, Kendall, Kempsey for example and very few doing the whole slog into Central. Those going the whole way were typically those entitled to extremely cheap travel like $2.50 from NSW Govt+ $17 for the QLD crossing or something ridiculous like that.
Great video, and well researched with plenty of good points and suggestions. Australia lags behind the world when it comes to decent passenger long distance rail travel, even the XPT is showing its age. Even in India and Malaysia found express passenger trai8n travel to be far superior on what we have here. Journey Beyond is getting paid by the SA & VIC governments to keep the service running, otherwise it would have been canned long ago. No state subsidy, no train.
@@nickhiscock8948 That is good news, I wasn’t sure what happened after the new Labor government took over. (and the evil NLP were kicked out of office)
I'm one serious train convert, I enjoyed the Overland so much I made 2 videos about it. However, IF... And that is a big if, they are going to go back to night service, the train carriages need a serious redo. They so old and creaky having a comfy sleep is near impossible. Going daily on a day service seems like the the most ideal. I agree with the Keswick issue. Lots of people got off the train and crowded at taxi ranks waiting for taxis that didn't turn up. I'm a local so I actually parked at the terminal, so no issues for me. But I felt bad for visitors. Great video, by the way!
Thanks for the update on The Overland. You explained the issues involved very well. I hope the problems can be resolved to the satisfaction of all future passengers and locals of all the towns along the way. Cheers Steve
Great video Martin. Just something on gauge conversion since the topic is relevant. Gauge conversion is always seen as expensive and it usually is, but not because moving a rail over a few mm is expensive, but because it usually goes hand in hand with upgrading a previously neglected line. If we wanted to seriously consider gauge converting Melbourne to Ballarat and Ararat, we could do the ground work now and have everything in place to move the rail a few mm cheaply and quickly when required.
Most of the Ballarat line is on concrete sleepers with the rail fixing points built in for Broad gauge. Not like wooden sleepers just drilling new holes. Next problem is pointwork and other connecting lines for Maryborough etc. Even East of Sunshine do you then need to convert the whole Bendigo Echuca line and so Sunbury suburbans. Then gauge converted stock. Possibly more that are not thought about. Costs rapidly blowing out once a more realistic view is taken. All that for the very minority use of Overland time saving. An interesting point is how the Adelaide standard gauge introduced so many problems and solved close to nothing So that politicians could solve the problem of changing trains at the South Australian border, as in the Victorian transport ministers (Brown?) speech on opening in the nineties. Imagined a solution to a problem that was not there. He said in his speech that for the first time we no longer need to change trains at the border.
@@johnd8892 I’m aware of things such as sleepers, points etc being broad gauge only. I wasn’t trying to imply we just still a few holes, move the rail over and hey presto. My point was more that installing little things such as gauge convertible sleepers, gauge convertible sleepers etc should be done now, or rather as we already replace them. And that goes for all lines, not just Ballarat. The overland would be a side benefit, not the main benefit.
I had the chance of travelling the overland, but the people I was with didn't want to do a 10 hour rail ride, so we opted for flying. The flight ended up getting delayed so bad, we would have arrived Melbourne at the same time if not earlier had we gone with the Overland route. Great video, next time to Adelaide I will definitely go for the rail option.
The railway union published a guide on how to fix the warrnambool service, available from the state library which I read back in the 90s. Basically saying improve the speed by adding a buffet car to stop the halt at Colac, stop the changing of locomotives at Birragara ( or Winchelsea) and improve the rolling stock. When West Coast took over they seemed to implement all the reccomendations and now V Line have taken the service back and it appears to be very well patronised. All very similar to what you suggested here so maybe they will work.
As sleeping car trains re-emerge in Europe from the cheap flight days as an eco-friendly no brainer between major European cities and in the UK, a business case can surely be made here in Australia for luxury overnight business and leisure travel along the Melbourne - Adelaide and in particular the Melbourne - Sydney corridors. As we slowly emerge from COVID and we start to embrace face to face meetings and for the reinvigorated international inbound tourist market, IMO the case for a relaunch of the nightly Overland and Southern Aurora, initially using refurbished original sleeping car rolling stock and in partnership between government and private enterprise seems to me to be a no-brainer.
Hi. A railway enthusiast and railway signalling engineer here! I live in EUrope and my significant other comes from another country. When I go to visit her parents, I almost exclusively use trains. Well, local trains kinda suck here (except for busy mainlines). They run pretty fast but then you spend 20 minutes waiting for another train. Or changing to a bus that is already occupied from its first stop which is at the town square. Nothing bright. But long-distance travelling is much other. I am quite an experienced driver, but driving a car is work for me... not my favourite kind of work. When I go by car, it means to depart my home town, drive like 50 km on the autobahn, then like 80 km on the 1st class road (13 m wide comfortable road that tends to not go through towns and villages) (The autobahn is not yet finished here.), then again few hours on the autobahn, and then once again 1st class road for one hour, one mountain pass drivable at 30 to 40 kph, traversing a whole 100k city, 15 km long curvy road next to a wild river, then few kilometres on the autobahn, and once again 1st class road, then once again autobahn, and then... finally... 2nd class road to where the target of a trip is. I guess you are pretty tired just from reading about it and imagining this route. I departed at 6 am, and upon arrival, it is 16:30, I'm pretty much tired and I call it a day! But when I take a train, it is much other question. I just take quite comfortable PT to a train station. Then 160 kph regional EMU to the neighbouring city (25 km). Here I walk to another platform and after a while, I already see the Pendolino high-speed train. I enter the 1st class carriage and sit on a comfortable leather seat (My Volvo has leather seats too - but not even close to the comfort of those in the Pendolino.). Immediately after boarding, we get free water, a sandwich, a newspaper and a glass of sparkling wine. Then we put headphones on... turn noise cancelling on, and listen to a podcast, or songs, we read our favourite books. We can see the train tilt in curves and beautifully slide between hills and mountains. When it is like 1 pm, we order a meal. Our national dish - Svickova with a great perfectly chilled Pilsner Urquell beer from a tank. A few moments after we finish a meal, we disembark at our final station. We are full of energy, fresh, educated by a podcast, chilled, and ready for adventures. Well, we wait for her parents to pick us up at the station, so the time bonus is quite zero. But hey! When we go by car - I am tired as hell. With train transport, we go for a 4-hour walk to the mountains right that day. And that is why I love long-distance trains. And there is one even better thing - EuroNight (or NightJet) trains!
`. Bring back the Sleepers Make it a night service again. Give the Overlander AKA Overtimer, track priority. Reduce the fairs. Coordinate the service to match departures/arrivals of the Ghan and Indian-Pacific.
I can remember doing this trip a lot when I was a young child and using the older train with the sleeping births which were amazing to us as children. We'd take this train from Melbourne every Easter break from school to see a uncle that lived in Adelaide and always had fun on the train.
Great video. I think a day time service via Ballarat /Ararat with a change of train at Ararat and a night time service on the current route would be much more practical. Buses at Keswick are surely a must have.
Great video mate, in regard to your plan for entry in to Adelaide, I personally think it's time the Adelaide suburban network is finally converted to SG. With that complete, it would make the possibility of The Overland being taken out of private hands and country rail services much higher.
You know what. There's some damn good points in all of your analysis. Totally agree with you Keswick analysis, a bus/coach connection there would solve the final leg issue easily.
Mate , your videos are always so well researched and informative and interesting , even for those of us that really couldn't care less about trains , you make it interesting and often a great history lesson . Thanks for your efforts. About the only thing I've had to do of note in trains , is about 20 odd years ago as an old trucky , I picked up an over dimensional case in height and in width from the Melbourne wharf ( Conaust if I remember correctly) , the case had in it a new replacement loco engine for one of the national units I think like the one on your thumbnail if I'm not mistaken ? I had to take the box/engine to the Tottenham rail yard . I ended up spending additional time at the yard because they did not have a frame wide enough to lift the box off my truck , which turned out alright , because while I was waiting for one to be brought down, one of the young workshop guys while we were waiting give me a bit of a look inside one of the Locos , and give me a bit of look around the workshop. if I remember correctly the case and train engine weighed 20 tons in total , the box weighed 4 tons , giving us 16 tons for the diesel engine. The engine was tuned to 4000 horsepower , apparently the same engine in the US they have the wick turned up to 4400 horsepower. The young bloke told me all this 😊, the old grey matter still has a bit of life left in it ay 😂. Cheers.
Great video! I see you used the Caledonian Sleeper between Scotland and London an example. It certainly is a good train. It's been having some of the same problems as the Overland over the last few years, however. Until 2018 old trains were used and the fares were very reasonable - both for seats and for berths. They also had "bargain berths" - a few tickets on each train for a really low price which were very popular. I used the Sleeper a lot. Then new trains were brought in. They are absolutely lovely trains but when they came in the fares were jacked way up. It used to be cheaper to get the sleeper than to get a day train and a hotel. Now it isn't. It is being promoted as a luxury tourist train - smart uniforms, the best food and drink etc. It was also made it's own railway franchise, run separately from Scotland's national rail service ScotRail which I'm not sure was a good idea. The Caledonian Sleeper is in a funny position at the moment - it's heavily subsidised by the Scottish Government and the trains are running pretty much full - but mostly of tourists seeking a luxury experience due to the fare which have priced out everybody else. The train was recently brought back into the public sector so this does create an opportunity. The Scottish Government will have to think about what the Sleeper is for - public transport for the general public with consequent fare reform and more subsidy or a service for international tourists with less subsidy but not really fulfilling a public transport need! Or some way of suiting both markets. I still use the Sleeper but I go seated now rather than getting a berth (which is normally more expensive than a day train but not too bad) and only go when I'm on my own as I can no longer afford to take my family.
Very interesting, thanks! It seems like a lot of places have this issue with sleeper trains, trying to make them a tourist thing rather than just existing on their own merits.
Thanks for the video! After talking and learning about the service for the past 5-7 years, I've finally caught it for the first time just last month on a trip back from Melbourne. It was certainly an experience and I do wish that a few of the improvements and suggestions that you've talked about could at least be implemented within the next year or so as a start. It just is frustrating seeing the potential in a system but only for it to be just... left to the wayside x.x
Great analysis and achievable solutions. In 1990 I drove from Bairnsdale to Adelaide for a conference. Train travel was ruled out because of both the availability of seats from Melbourne and the added burden of connecting in from Bairnsdale which would probably have meant an overnight in Melb. I drove to Adelaide in one daylight hit but, on the way back, leaving at about six pm, broke the journey for about two or three hours to nap outside Horsham. I got back to Bairnsdale about midday the following day, just avoiding being cut off by rapidly rising floodwaters at Stratford, in time to be in turn cut off from the main town of Bairnsdale for 48 hours due to the same major flood event. Sitting with my feet up on the train would have been a most desirable option...and is something I still want to do, both to Adelaide and Perth, and possibly Sydney, although the logistics of all three journeys from south eastern Victoria remain daunting.
Thanks for this great video. I was coincidentally looking at the Overland yesterday and two things put me off. The Adelaide terminal location and complete lack of public transport options to get into Adelaide (they really should have at least a shuttle bus to/from the city). But also the terrible timings for departure from Adelaide. Who on their holiday wants a departure at 6.55 am?
I agree totally. Took this train from Melbourne in June, arrived at Parklands station in the dark - no taxis or transportation! On my return 6.55am departure with instructions to check in at least one hour before!
That check in requirement is ridiculous just give us allocated seating at time of booking and let us board and put our own luggage in the rack just like every other train in the country!
I think for air travel, the thing people overlook is that, while the part of the trip in the air is very quick, air travel in general involves a lot of waiting around and a complex process of actually getting to and boarding your aeroplane. To travel, for example from Melbourne CBD to Sydney CBD involves firstly to 25 minute bus trip to the airport, then checking in (though most people do that online), baggage check, security, then waiting at the terminal, boarding (which in itself takes quite a long time), then at the other end, disembarking, waiting at the bavgage carousel for your baggage, then making your way to the airport train platforms to get a train into the city. If you consider that you have to arrive at the airport some 90 minutes prior to boarding, then you've just added 2 hours to your trip time, then probably another hour on the other end collecting baggage and further train travel. That's now some 5 hours - still half the time of the train, but with way more inconvenience. Compare that with the xpt, where you arrive st southern cross, board, stow your baggage, find your bed, sleep, wait up at sydney terminal.
For me personally, it is sad to see what has happened, with the failed opportunites to modernise rail passenger transportation in Australia. My late father was the consist manager for many years and it was the first job I remember my father had as a boy. The last job he had was as the Marketing Manager for the old ANR before the passenger trains were privatised. He designed and introduced the sit up carriages on the Trans Australia between Port Pirie and Perth and the Indian Pacific between Peterborough and Sydney which if I recall was reasonably popular with younger people.
I really enjoyed your analysis of the issues with the current Overland service. It woud be so wonderful if the government took some action to turn it into a useful and comfortable service for passengers. The current timetable is just a joke with a twice weekly service. In relation to the gauge change option....maybe there will be more competition in that space in future. Stadler are also working on their own gauge changing technology at the moment.
I took The Overland several years ago, prior to COVID. It was a great trip, particularly the section through the Adelaide Hills, but so inconvenient. All passengers are meant to arrive one hour early so baggage can be checked in, even if you don't have checked in baggage. I took the local train from my station (Coromandel) in the dark, and walked from the Showgrounds station to the Adelaide Parklands station. About two hours later I passed through Coromandel again on The Overland heading toward Melbourne. In a previous era The Overland stopped at Bridgewater for connection to the local train, An equivalent stop at Belair would be feasible as the standard guage platform is still in good condition. One reason why DMUs couldn't be used on the service is because all level crossings would need to be upgraded to include boomgates, as has occurred on the Albury line.
The point about 'pointy trains' is spot on. Locally to me in the UK we have trains that look like the velocity, that are capable of 160km/h and never run faster than 90km/h because of bad level crossings and line quality.
Beautifully done. You are spot on, the VLo is not the correct solution as a replacement. For intrastate services from Horsham to Melbourne, the long distance fleet VLo would be ideal. This would actually improve the local services and provide the daylight service, potentially allowing the Overland to be an Overnight Service again. A carefully timetabled connection of those daylight services at Ararat, would allow those going to Melbourne to transfer, whilst providing a direct service to Geelong (obviously it would still run to Melbourne for servicing), but it also create the path of Horsham to Ballarat, which can't be done as a single train because of the Gauge. The current carriages, when the inter-carriage doors work are quiet and comfortable, but by comparison to the N Sets, creak and groan a lot more when the doors are inoperative, which makes the trip less bearable. I agree that VLine would be the preferred operator, however, Journey Beyond seems to be more interested in the service than GSR. I'm glad you mentioned the "Keswick Conundrum". These days, people travelling on the Ghan, Indian Pacific or Southern Spirit are chauffered in for their trip, built into their premium fares, with the abandonment of Economy Class. So the Overland without its price premium doesn't include the option. In the lead up to the state election, there has been talk of a Talgo style commuter train between Mt Barker and Adelaide, so the gauge change is potentially a candidate, although Dual Gauge on the Up Belair, Down Gawler lines would probably be fine too. The drawback of arriving the overnight train at Adelaide Station, is that ARS would be very busy arriving in the Morning Peak. In Sydney, the Indian Pacific has to be turned around and out by 3pm to avoid the peak at Central. A similar issue exists at ARS. The Dock Platform with flyover does have potential though. Personally, I think the return of the Sleeper leaving approx 8:30pm and arrivng around 7am is the right option. Adding the accommodation, means you actually have the day to tourist in Melbourne or Adelaide. The daylight options are good, but in SA, Murray Bridge and Bordertown are not used to commute to Adelaide (who wants to commute to Adelaide at 4:30pm in the afternoon except enthusiasts like me), but rather pickup points to go into regional Victoria or to Melbourne. Going to Bordertown, the Coach Services runs in Parallel on Sunday leaving at 10am rather than 7:45am, with no competition on Thursday. Murray Bridge has multiple services in the day as buses which are way cheaper full fare. The other curio, for the Thursday timetable, why not leave and arrive an hour later throughout to avoid the oncoming freight traffic? It could tail PM6 up the hill, instead of leaving well ahead of it. Once again, a beautiful analysis.
I took the Overland both ways in 1987. In fact I traveled all over Australia by rail for entire month of May using a 1 month 1st class rail pass (Australia National existed then).
This was sooo interesting. Really. THANK YOU. I was 9 years old in 1962 when I first travelled with my mother on the overnight 'Melbourne Express' .. from Adelaide Railway Station. It was an adventure! Over the years I have travelled on 'The Overland' many times. The deterioration of the service has been PAINFUL to watch. Keswick 'Terminus' .. says it ALL. I think there is a good case to be made to upgrade the service and make it a viable option to the regular 'new normal' .. HORROR .. of 21st century Australian airport chaos!!! But then again .. what would I know? (30 years spent in airline sales and marketing). LOL!!
The talk about rolling stock in New Zealand reminds me of NZ's new Te Huia service between Auckland and Hamilton, where we recently reconditioned a number of old British Rail Mk2 carriages [previously used in push-pull suburban trains in Auckland] for the inter-city service. Toilets installed, wifi installed, seats, tables, power points, a cafe, etc etc etc. The 50 year old carriages brought up to a decent standard.
The sleepers on the adelaide metro track are already dual gauge so for the run into Adelaide station you would just need to add a rail. This could cross over at Goodwood station to provide a stopping point outside of central adelaide.
I’ve taken a velocity countless times from Bairnsdale to Melbourne, and after four hours you’re ready to get off. It’s a good ride, but they aren’t accommodating to long rides
Thanks for this. It was quite informative. One thing that I think government interest could help solve is making concession tickets more widely available for the Overland. Currently, I believe it's limited to pensioners.
I have taken that Melbourne-Adelaide coach multiple times - granted a decade ago by this point. It certainly is an experience. It was also more convenient than the Overland - even when it was still running three times a week at that point.
I just want to say that this video has (so far) 21.8K views and 1.9K likes. This is a lot of people who want info on Aussie trains! I'm so glad to have discovered that I'm not alone. I'm from Tasmania, no passenger services (except for horribly expensive tourist ones) since the 1970s. If enough of us jump up and down, talk to MPs and so on, we can get these changes.
Great video. I think the Vlocity is a plausible option, but they would have to be brand new and specifically made for the Overland by completely redesigning the interior for long distance to travel.
19:43: also, there used to be a keswick station, but they demolished it in favour of the Showgrounds, it would’ve been better if it were the other way round.
In September 1994, it was still an overnight service and it cost me $504 to go Melbourne to Adelaide on the Overland with a day in Adelaide before the Indian Pacific from Adelaide to Perth. Not sure if that was NZD or AUD. There were buses from Keswick into Adelaide and the casino but I can't remember if they were free. I hope people support the trains as you will be sorry when they are gone.
A very informative and well produced analysis. I'm all for keeping loco hauled trains as DMUs are a curse for long travel with their constant vibration. Although that Stadler train where the diesel engines are in their own short carriage and act as generators for the electric motors look interesting.
Excellent Video. My wife and I recently travelled on the Overland both to and from Adelaide and loved the experience, and wanted to use the journey as a practice run for the Ghan, but of course without the overnight sleeper component, its not really purpose built for that long luxury journey, and so probably didn't give us a true idea of what the Ghan may be like. Hopefully some of your suggestions may be taken up. Certainly it is an alternative to air/road travel, rather than the travel experience you would look for on the 3 or 4 day journey.
I made a trip from Melbourne to my brothers place in Tailem Bend, SA. I looked at the overland, but ended up taking the bus. Reasons: 1)the tourist aspect of the overland made it expensive compared to the bus, more than twice the price one way for my return bus ticket 2) timetable - the bus runs daily (and nightly) I wasn’t staying for a week 3) the bus stops in Tailem Bend, in walking distance to my brothers. The train would take me past them into Murray Bridge, despite Tailem Bends train station being in service
Very interesting. I travelled on this service in March 1996 (CLP loco). Chose the cheaper sit up option, wasn't the best. I think it's beat to stick to loco hauled and avoid underfloor motor vibration. I liked the 1960s cars which harked back to the golden age of rail travel. Having just been in UK and traveled about a lot by rail, I specially tried where possible to use the now vanishing HSTs rather than likes of Voyager units which are way less comfortable in a few ways. Being from across the ditch, it was interesting to note your mention of the AK cars, which, without doubt, have a superior ride. Of note, the Auckland to Wellington service had a similar name for many years, called the Overlander, as you are probably aware. Interesting , clear and informative videos, easy to follow.
4:40 easy fix for that one, re introduce a V/Line standard gauge Vlocity service twice a day to Horsham and back via Geelong, or if you don't want to spend too much money, increase frequency on the ararat to nhill coach.
I travelled on The Overland last March. Agree totally with everything you've said! No way should this be owned by private enterprise, it's a major, intercity line. The only positive is that Beyond have managed to keep the fare reasonably priced. I travelled from Sydney to Adelaide on the Indian Pacific in July, and it was very expensive. Not impressed by the trend towards turning trains into cruise ships, especially on main, intercity routes. Having the terminal outside Adelaide City is just plain crazy. The other thing it doesn't sync up with is the ferry to Tasmania which leaves from North Geelong. Foot traffic on the Spirit is not unusual, I've travelled that way many times. The train arrived 20 minutes too late which meant having to find overnight accommodation in Geelong. I also agree that it should have an overnight service too. I remember going to Adelaide that way back in the 1980s, it was a great trip!
Great work! One example I can think of in terms of keeping the current frequency is a coach service from the closest V Line station in Western Victoria (no idea which one) and provide a coach service. In NSW the Broken Hill XPlorer only runs once a week, but there is a daily coach connecting Dubbo XPT and Broken Hill and it's not too much of a difference in time either.
Liked your suggestions for the Keswick Terminal. Here in WA theses solutions have always existed at East Perth Station (where the Indian Pacific and local country trains run out of), as the suburban train stops right next door via a foot bridge, and at Bunbury Station, where a co-ordinated bus service takes you to and fro the train to the CBD, some 3km away, 7 days a week. I've always thought MEL to ADL would be a good Phase 1 for any true high speed rail or higher speed rail in Australia. Similar projects have been done in Europe, where the idea is to revive the rustbelt s'hole with the glimmering metropolis by connecting them FAST!
Having worked on the "real" Overland regularly back in the 70's, I must say this video is well researched and I am sure real railway people who have experienced the real Overland would agree with the narrative. If I could just expand on a few things mentioned....Yes rail did lose out in the end to cheaper airfares, but not so much the cheaper airfares, but the fact the rail chiefs just sat on thi hands knowing it would happen and chose not to do much about it. Especially the "management" of the Victorian Railways at the time. They had no idea how to be proactive. They somehow forgot that the Overland was not just a train between capital cities. It was also a train used by many passengers to roadside stations in between. I am talking about the broad gauge days of course. There were also daytime trains to Horsham, and even on to Dimboola back in the day. Some simple foresight by Victorian Railways would have kept the Overland running. South Australia did want to keep it going in both directions, but Victoria seemed to throw their arms up in the air and simply give up, with no solution to cheaper air fares. But aircraft do not land at roadside stations. A similar thing can be said of the old Intercapital Daylight of the day, but at least the XPT sort of took care of that, even with its poor reliability at times, and being replaced by buses a lot of the time from Melbourne to Albury. So they sell or lease the Overland to a private company with limited, if any, real knowledge of how rail should be run. They want it to be some sort of tourist cash cow, even though they do take roadside passengers for stations out west, which they are subsidised for. Now the staff on the train are very good as stated, no argument about that. But it is not the Overland as we knew it. They could still run it at night, would not cost much more, in fact it could be argued it would cost less. But if a government decides to sell something to a private operator, especially anything rail related, history shows it rarely turns out for the best. It may work OK in places like the UK, where the population is greater, and rail lines are all over the country, but privatising Australian long distance interstate trains has never worked. As for the Ghan and indian Pacific. they are nothing like the Overland anyway, never were, but again the attracion for travelling on those trains for most people, is prohibited by excessive fares. I call it greed to make money for shareholders. I am surprised that the government owned V Line hasn't been sold off to Great Southern Rail as well, to screw up. And we all know why that won't happen though. Because V Line actually provides pretty good service in general, and privatising it would be a disaster. Just like the suburban network turned out when that was privatised decades ago. It should all be government run again. NSW was smart enough to keep their suburban and country passenger services government run. Victoria in particular, is the laughing stock of the country, getting rid of what could have been excellent trains, if run by a decent management and not "bean counters" with no rail experience.
Fantastic analysis! I think it's a great point you make about the DMU issue that most operators (especially government operators) fall into. A lot of operators think that a DMU is great because 1. It's distributed power, therefore faster acceleration and time to top speed, 2. They are a permanently coupled, double ended set, so no shunting and reduced turnaround time. Yet they don't think about passenger comfort compared to a loco hauled train. I live in NSW and have been so keen to get to Victoria and travel on a Vlocity. If they are like the Endeavours and Xplorers in NSW I would assume that they are noisy compared to loco hauled traffic. I would love to see a video done by someone about the advantages/disadvantages of a DMU Vs loco hauled train. I often get off long distance DMU trips (e.g. Sydney to Bathurst 3 hours and 30 minutes) with a headache from the constant vibration. Great video! I wish the public service were allowed to make submissions like this, or commission interested citizens like yourself to pitch these ideas to government backed up with government sponsored data and research. Keep up the great work!
What about a push-pull train? Basically combines the configurations of a multiple unit and a traditional locomotive-hauled service. Engine in front, control car at the back, so that the train can travel in reverse at full speed, cutting down turnaround times at termini
Yes exactly, like the QR Tilt train this is what I was getting at. The UK has gone a step further as well and has one locomotive/power car at the "Front" and a driving trailer at the "Back" allowing exactly what you have stated to occur. There's a number of ways operators can achieve passenger operations, however for some reason in Australia DMU's are usually preferred since the 1990's in most states.
@@thebats5270 it's not just in the UK. Rail operators in various other European countries have done so as well. Germany for example has high-speed trains operating in a push-pull configuration, namely the ICE 2 with a Class 402 electric locomotive, a Class 808 driving van trailer and Class 805-807 coaches in between
I always loved the old livery of the Overland the red and silver. Beautiful Consist. Lovely video! Also side note Ive never really liked Journey Beyond/GSR as ever since they took control of the these trains its become more expensive.
I have just done a trip from Adelaide to Melbourne and I took the Firefly overnight bus to Melbourne and took the daylight V/Link bus on the return trip. The Overland is very good for one thing. The food. The Firely/V-Line bus has two meal break stops but in both cases the road house food is just above greasy spoon level. And flying has lots of issues too.
I have travelled both the Overlander and the XPT with my family and although we enjoyed both, the staff and the feel of the Overlander was far more enjoyable.
I am but a fairly naive American, but the rolling stock section has me wondering if the Viewliner design from Amtrak might work as an overnight/coach carriages for the Overland. The design could be upped to match the Australian loading gauge since the Viewliners were built with the restrictions the NEC has in the US, and are already in service for the most part.
Another very well presented video! Well researched and informative. I have wanted to do this trip for some years, however, the frequency of trains has been the major issue. Like your great explanation of the Sydney Central flyover junctions a very impressive video!
I took this train in May 2022. Can recommend it. Having said that, I made a special trip to ride it as I have no relationship with either Adelaide or Melborne.
I a a big fan of the KiwiRail AK class, and I feel it's a real shame it they chosen for the XPT replacement instead of hard-seat underfloor DMUs. They'd be ideal for the Overlander, though as a cheap/free option, the possibility of cascading some older V/line loco hauled stock down to the Overlander as the Vlocity rollout continues should also be considered. These sets are still much newer than the overlander, and with a refreshed interior would be a good option going forward at minimal cost. "Ideal but realistic world" (i.e. where there is some money and govt support, but no pie-in-the-sky things like a 320km/h TGV) for me would be to see a 12 hourly service, using AK class stock with day train and separate AK-class derived sleeper rolling stock, along with motorail cars, for the overnight service. In the long term it'd be fantastic to see the NSW Trains pretty much useless weekly Broken Hill Xplorer (another DMU, on a 13 hour journey!) also replaced with a daily Sydney-Adelaide motorail sleeper.
Massive thanks for having Closed Captioning available for these videos. I know it's not cheap or easy but many of us appreciate it greatly!
No problem! It doesn't take me too long to adapt them from the script I write for these videos, so I'm trying to keep on top of doing it for all of them.
you have to pay for them??? thats awful for people who have hearing impairments
@@georgie.513What he means by “cheap” is not that you have to buy it, it means the amount of efforts to make the caption.
@@albertytube5547I believe there are quite a few services which offer to transcribe your videos for you which would be useful for people whose videos don't come with a script.
AI captioning via voice to text is still pretty terrible especially for people who rely on it as an alternative to audio but it should be fairly easy to use AI to sync a script with a video so hopefully that encourages more people to make the effort. You can also pay for this service but there are tutorials out there for doing it yourself and I imagine once you've done it once it's easy to repeat the process.
Adding them manually probably takes at least as long as watching the video so even though I don't rely on them personally I really appreciate the effort because everyone should be able to enjoy this sort of thing.
@@TaitsetThis site used to have community submissions which allowed the community to submit captions to some videos however it was alas taken away in September 2020.
I hope you have sent a copy of this video to both Ministers of Transport in S.A. and Vic., because it is absolutely excellent, well researched and offers a variety of solutions which could easily be implemented - if we don't have any sports stadia that "need" to be built. The railway services in this country have been allowed to run down over decades and it is only recently that we have seen some improvements. "The Overland" should be running daily - not twice weekly!
Like in all former English commonwealth countries? Yeah
Everytime I plan a trip to Melbourne I want to, so badly, take the overland. But the timetable is just consistently the biggest killer.
Drives me up the wall how much of a compromise the service is and the absolute car dependice of Keswick station is pathetic. Def gonna write to my mp now lmao.
Fantastic breakdown of what can be done, ty.
I'm a massive rail-stan. I've caught the Overland to Stawell, to go to the Grampians. But that was a one way trip, and I work for myself so I was able to be flexible about when I went. But in the 2 trips I've taken to Adelaide, it just didn't match with even my quite flexible plans!
Agreed. I want an overnight service with sleeper cars and the motorail.
Absolutely agreed - Keswick is a huge pain to get to and from.
I agree with the video about the connecting busses - it's baffling they don't have one, especially since the Ghan terminus in Darwin _does_ (Admittedly Darwin railway station is in an even worse location, but still - Journey Beyond are clearly capable of it)
Can’t believe, as an Adelaidean that this service has deteriorated so much. Back in the sixties there used to be a Second Division of the Overland, usually departing later than the main train and using very old rolling stock.
The 2nd Division 'Overland' ran mostly for the Easter holidays.
You got to get both the new state premiers to watch this, then it might change. And in your closing line we must get our MP aware and ask them to watch it, they also might get the premiers watching to . Thanks for that another great video
An excellent analysis.
There are serious issues with Keswick Terminal. My wife & I arrived in Adelaide on the Ghan in February 2020 just as the pandemic was hotting up. Like most aboard the train we were astonished to be disembarked at Keswick, apparently dumped in the middle of nowhere. It was the only low point of an otherwise fantastic trip. We managed to get a taxi into Adelaide (having no idea how far we had to go) and find our hotel.
I agree with you that the Overland needs to be more frequent.
After a few days in Adelaide our plans were to move on to Melbourne and were getting ready arrange flights. We discovered the Overland purely by accident. A railfan, I knew of the existence of the Overland but thought the service had already ceased. I only found it was still providing running to Melbourne by pure chance. Advertising was almost non-existent. You cannot expect to sell tickets for a train if you don't tell people they are available! This may be a flaw of the tourism focus of Journey Beyond's marketing strategy.
We travel by train anytime there is a service available that suits our needs but we almost missed out on this trip. We are in a position to directly compare the XPT with the Overland because we did a trip to Coff's Harbour by XPT in October 2019. The experience was very similar.
The Overland used to terminate at Adelaide Railway Station and where the casino is now used to be the waiting room. Darwin's train station is 32 kilometres from the middle of Darwin so it's not as bad as Darwin. The Overland used to be a daily overnight service but it was changed to a tourist train because not as many people were travelling on the Overland anymore. And the only reason the Overland is still running is because the Victorian government gives the train company millions of dollars to keep the service running.
What an excellent analysis, and your recommendations are spot on. Really good content!
I thought you did an excellent job of outlining problems and solutions for this train. I am a retired railroad conductor in the USA. My wife and I were in Australia only once but really enjoyed our trip. We rode the XPT from Sydney to Melbourne and were generally pleased with that service. I think in the short term the top priority would be increased frequency, ideally daily. Number two would be moving back into the old Adelaide station. We rode several of the Vline Velocity trains in Victoria. I think these trains would work for The Overland with better seating, increased seat pitch, and food service. Refurbished XPTs should fill the bill as well. I also agree that Vline would be much better at running the operation. We hope to get back to Australia someday...it's just that bloody loooong plane ride. We have not yet been to Adelaide so I hope some of the powers that be are paying addition and shed a little love on the Overland. We would much rather take the train there.
You are so right Wayne. I was a conductor on the real Overland back in the 70's, based in Melbourne, (we went right through to Adelaide, and the Adelaide crews came to Melbourne, trains in both directions passing at a little place called Diapur overnight.They ruinedthe old Adelaide station that's for sure by building a casino basically on top of it, and "moving" the station for interstate trains out of the city. That station now is like a ghost town, even when trains arrive and depart from there. Very sad indeed.
Canadian here. I've never been to Australia, but can see the uneasy parallel between certain trains of ours with yours. I sympathize with the historic problems of having to deal with the legacy of a "tangle of gauges" , to me it's surprising that your country's passenger rail network still exists at all today under those conditions and attitudes.
not all countries are like Canada lol
but I too am often surprised when the bureachracy of Victoria gives way to actually useful infrastructure projects
Gauges are a nightmare
It's better than via rail (solely because you don't have to check in)
Very well researched and I agree with all of your comments yes should be used as a submission to V,line I think the biggest problem here is that nobody actually wants it i’m talking about corporate companies or possibly some state governments
However thank you very much for going to the time and effort and trouble of researching
More people should see this video
Regards Peter
Great video! I moved to Horsham from Melb at the start of the year, and despite being a huge train nerd, I’ve never been able to use The Overland because it’s never been convenient. Shockingly, most locals here are under the impression the train doesn’t run anymore. I can’t blame them. Personally, I’m hoping for the Spanish variable gauge solution that you mentioned. But any improvements at this rate would be incredible.
Yeah I'm From Horsham and moved to Melb, and I honestly thought the overland didn't exist, I would much prefer taking the train back home to see my family, but Vline only goes to Ararat and I cant stand taking the Bus to Horsham. So I drive, Begrudgingly
It costs $105 for a standard seat from Melbourne to Horsham, *one-way!* You can do it on the Firefly bus for about $40
this has just now changed its only $9.20 on the Overland to Horsham. the dates still have to line up though
I used to live 10 minutes' walk away from North Shore station in Geelong and you'd be surprised how many people had heard of The Overland, but don't know it runs through Geelong, despite crossing over the level crossing next to the station countless times and having a mysterious "Platform 3" that is used exclusively for it.
My wifes grand father was one of the men who laid the tracks between Adelaide and western victoria.
The V/Line Coach that does run this service actually starts in Bendigo then goes through to Adelaide via Saint Arnaud (I'm one of the Coach Drivers that do it regularly). V/Line could run this service as far as Horsham then they train it to Adelaide and vise versa. Firefly are trying to get more frequent services between Ballarat and Nhill but V/Line won't budge. The Keswick end of the trip is a big problem and definitely an Achilles heal to the future if The Overland. Great video by the way.
Your channel is brilliant for those interested in/ fascinated by trains i.e. normal people. As a kid growing up in Melbourne during the 70's and 80's I benefited from my late father's love of trains.
Most of Dad's family lived in Sydney. On a few occasions, we made the Christmas journey on the Southern Aurora. Dad would book two interconnected twin sleeping cabins and the staff would put our car on the last carriage. In fact, I seem to recall that when we reached Central, Dad would drive the car off the train himself into a convenient area designed for this purpose.
These journeys remain true highlights of my childhood.
In 1979, the decision was made to visit relatives in Perth, making the journey by rail. Even then, The Overland felt a bit neglected. Back then, it was necessary to take a genuinely awful passenger train from Adelaide to Port Augusta in order to meet the Indian Pacific. It was worth it though, both for the experience and the fact that The Indian Pacific was, even in 1979, a truly wonderful train.
I went on to study Economics/Law at Monash during the era where just about everything was being privatised. There were many cases where both efficiency gains and competition were touted as reasons for privatisation. Often, this was not supported by economic theory.
Thanks for a wonderful video.
I took this train back in 2014, it was a great experience!
In May 2023 I finally went on the Overland from Melbourne to Adelaide. It is a nice service but to make the trip work you need to make up for the short comings. They are no onboard Wifi (have a phone/device with a SIM card here) and no USB charge ports on seats (use a good portable power bank here) and concede that you only use this service one way (I went from Adelaide to Melbourne by the overnight Firefly bus and did a scary 3AM thing too). I used a taxi to get from the Parklands terminal to Adelaide Railway Station. On Firefly / V-Line buses they end at the country bus terminal in Franklin St and walk to the tram stop at Victoria Square and take the tram to Adelaide Railway Station.
A couple of friends and I went to Adelaie a few yesr back from Melbourne. They flew and I took the train. I sat in the bar, had a few drinks, read a book, enjoyed the scenery. It was great. They need to invest. The vid was great.
A good summary of the issues and potential solutions. I think you nailed the key problem in your summary, namely the need for federal and state government interest. It's simply not on their radar and not a current priority.
This was really fascinating. Your videos came up on my recommended recently and as a fellow Melbournian it’s great to see more Victorian content! Thanks for making this and I look forward to more future uploads!
An excellent video! Well thought out, analysed, and without the nonsense foaming many arguments made about the train usually contain, so well done!
Cheers!
Great video, we have a similar problem in Sydney where I had to go through The Keswick Conundrum myself! I was helping a support worker of mine to plan a trip that she was going from Sydney to Adelaide. She wanted to take the train as the plane although very fast, is very expensive. And the car, although _somewhat_ cheaper, and about the same time as the train, would have been really exhausting. So she wanted to take the Indian Pacific instead, I had a look and the cheapest ticket was about $664 one way (which now is $855 and can get as high as $1425 just for a Gold Twin, the lowest tier on the IP), and wouldn't have been convenient for her to make it for the event she was going, so instead she took the car.
I think resuming services with NRT's making a service at least once a day extending from the current Broken Hill line would work! No matter what Railpage say, there are quite a few people who want to go Sydney-Adelaide, but can't afford the high prices, people will only start riding the train if it's cheaper than the plane (
A return flight from Sydney to Adelaide is only like $150 - $250 depending on how far out you book atm, barely more expensive than driving with fuel prices what they are.
I only learnt a few years back Mum and Dad got engaged in Peterborough and took a early dawn train to Adelaide to look for a Ring in Rundle Stree( mall now) . Now whats the best way for Disabled people to get their motorised Chairs on transport interstate?
I took the Indian Pacific from Sydney to Adelaide back in July. Cost me over $900. Definitely not worth it, even to a train lover like me.
Great video. I'm just gobsmacked that there is currently no coach service provided into the Adelaide CBD.
I thought that The Overland was a goner but having watched this presentation, I am now reconsidering my attitude regarding its future. Considering the options presented here I believe that the Ararat based, V/locity option is a potential argument for a day service to Adelaide plus the Overland night sleeper service thru Southern Cross to Keswick Terminal.
Comfort, reliability, and daily scheduling is the key for the night service. My wife and I travelled over 16,000 kilometres in the USA on the superliners mainly, and the comfort experienced was amazing; we tried to book sleepers at least three months ahead of our travel dates but already unavailable so we opted for coach class - the only option because there is only sleeper and coach class- as it turned out the seats of coach class were terrific for sleeping with fully adjustable leg support and space provided to walk around the feet of the adjacent passenger.
The Ararat Station is now a bit of a standard gauge potential bridgehead for other services in western and northern Victoria - it is now the junction for Adelaide, Portland, Mildura (via Maryborough) and Geelong/Southern Cross. So it certainly is a potential jumping off point for a fast, (almost) express service to Adelaide providing a 'daylight standard' travel comfort, speed, reliability and definately daily frequency.
There is much more that comes to mind but not enough space here so I ask the author of this informative video if it is possible to have a bit of an informal plebesite on the potential support for a campaign.
BarryII
A very interesting topic! Just a few thoughts...
I would suggest once a day is probably the best plausible option in the near term. To borrow another XPT example, Sydney to Brisbane (still a larger city pair than Melbourne-Adelaide) is operated once a day in each direction and there doesn't seem to be any movements to increase that frequency. With that frequency, you would effectively need to have a day trip in one direction and a night in the other, otherwise you have a train sitting around for a while at both ends.
The Ararat connection is a good idea, but I'm not sure it's feasible for an overnight Adelaide-Melbourne trip. You'd either be telling people to wake up and transfer before dawn, or you end up arriving in Melbourne in mid-morning. Perhaps this ties into a Melbourne-Adelaide overnight, Adelaide-Melbourne daytime operating pattern.
I'd also be interested in hearing your thoughts on the XPT replacement trains which AFAIK won't have any sleepers (so no option to "head to bed" - 4:00), and what consequences this would have.
@Vincent Chan - In the early 2000s the Overland did have an alternating timetable like you say, running in daylight eastbound and at night westbound. It really just means you have the disadvantages of night in one direction and disadvantages of day in the other direction. I reckon it's better to have day both ways or night both ways, using two trains, even if that does mean they're idle 50% of the time (still more use time than the current set!).
I must admit I didn't think about the logistics of combining the Ararat change with a night service, but I'd probably argue that if you're running at night just don't worry about it - because the extra hour won't mean much.
I like the look of the XPT replacement. It is a shame they don't have sleeping accommodation, but if they make them very comfortable it might not matter too much. The reality is only a small percentage of XPT passengers get a bed - I've never been in one of their sleeping cars, but will certainly try to do it at least once before they get replaced. I do like how the replacement are bi-mode, making the most of the large electrified interurban area in NSW.
@@Taitset Hey, People do 15 hour stints in economy on airlines. If a new long distance carriage had aircraft "premium economy" style seats, that could work quite well. And maybe "business class" style for an extra cost. I'd pay it!
@@richardwales7825 the Queensland long distance trains do have business-class-style seats (folding down for a bed overnight), which seemed to work pretty well when I used them a couple of years ago - I'd say it was worth it but I think it was a quite a bit more expensive than the "economy" seats.
I recall when Australian National ran a daily Bluebird from Mt Gambier to Adelaide. This service was made to three days a week and patronage dropped and the drop in patronage was used as an excuse to scrap the service altogether. Then the conversion of the main line isolating the Mt Gambier was the death knell. Ironic because when the Mt Gambier line was guage converted from NG to BG, steel sleepers had extra holes for SG conversion which was being discussed around Australia in the early ‘50s.
You hit the nail right on the head, very informative and great ideas on fixing this iconic train, I travelled on it in 1988, It should be more marketed like the Melbourne to Sydney service rather than comparing it to the "IP" and the Ghan.
Having traveled on the Overland, I agree with the points raise in the video comment. Since the Victorian State Government is currently providing subsidies for the Overland train, it would make sense that the service is operated by V/Line. I also agree that the V/Line Ararat to Southern Cross (Melbourne city) services can be integrated with the Overland timetable to operate as a co-share services with integrated fares between Ballarat, Melton, Bacchus Marsh, Ararat, etc to Adelaide.
Also we need to think of the environment and the effects of reducing toxic emissions and non essential personal vehicle travel. An Overland standard carriage has 60 seats in a 2 aisle 2 seating configuration which can remove up to 60 non essential cars of the road. An Overland premium carriage has 36 seats in a 2 aisle 1 seating configuration which can remove up to 36 non essential cars of the road.
There are no reasons why the Overland services can not be upgrade to a sustainable environmentally friendly 'scenic' travel experience. Lets do it.
The 'How to Fix the Overland' video comment is similar to what is happening in New Zealand about how can New Zealand's 3 long distance 'scenic' long distance passenger trains be part of New Zealand national passenger travel network - publictransportforum.nz/articles/guest/tag/long-distance-trains
Nicely done! A possible interim solution for rolling stock would be to use the XPT trains that NSW are replacing, with appropriate refurbishing. Should do nicely for the next ten years or so whilst progressive infrastructure improvements and next generation train sets are sorted out.
The XPT carriagess have truly *terrible* seating. Very restricted reclining for any attempts at getting some sleep on an overnight service. No buffet car. For any travelling with a bicycle, bike must be boxed, pre-booked, and only *two* bikes per train. Just *don't* bring them in.
Excellent video! I rode The Overland back in 2009 from Melbourne to Adelaide. The section through the Adelaide Hills is breathtaking. There’s so much potential in this service, I hate that it’s been left to rot by government. Privatisation was a big mistake. Second biggest mistake was booting long-distance trains to Keswick, which has had the effect of Adelaide being written off as a destination for tourists and rail commuters. You notice how Journey Beyond/GSR never really features Adelaide in the scenic photos on their web site? It’s a real shame because it’s a charming city, the CBD is very walkable with many attractions, having long-distance trains pull into Adelaide Station right under the convention centre would be a dream. Maybe something the SA govt should be aiming for the state’s bicentenary? Instead passengers are left stranded out at dreary Keswick.
Very interresting video. I love your content.
Extremely professional style and very informative but still very entertaining.
This is pretty minor compared to the infrastructure issues you talk about, but I feel like a night service would need some sort of sleeper option. If not separate cabins, at least a good lie-flat seat like in Tilt Train first class.
As having experienced both the 'old" The Overland & the 'new' The Overland Experience I found your video very interesting. The current timetable & time taken is a major problem, as is the fact that the current operators are more tourist-focused than public transport focused, as you highlight in your video. It is difficult to combine a scenic tourist train with an efficient & cost-effective public transport train - the focus is completely different as are the passenger's expectations. I suggest a slightly different solution. 1) The tourist part remains with the current operators but it is run as per the Indian-Pacific but from Melbourne to Perth via Adelaide one day a week as a full luxury tourist train. It provides 2 weekly trains to Perth one via Sydney/Broken Hill and the other via Melbourne/Geelong - just needs to come up with a nice marketing brand such as Tasman Indian or Indian Tasman? 2) VLine takes over The Overland with a 7-day-a-week public transport service running a day & overnight service in both directions. Night trains have again become extremely popular in Europe and in the USA - especially Amtraks long-distance trains. Trains provide quicker boarding, the potential to carry more luggage and operate to & from capital cities CBDs. Two major issues as you also highlighted relate to rolling stock & access to Adeloads CBD. In relation to rolling stock for long-distance trains (greater than 3 hours), VLine rolling stock is not 'fit for purpose', as you highlighted. As NSW is replacing its XPT fleet by next year, perhaps a short-term solution would be to purchase the current XPT fleet of say 3 sets, install Wi-Fi & individual charging sockets for each seat, and a livery change over. Whilst the fleet is over 40 years old it still younger than the current The Overland rolling stock. Using locos to haul passenger trains is very inefficient. Then the long-term solution is to purchase a specific long-distance passenger train retaining push/pull cabs at each end. The other problem is that intercity trains must operate from the CBD so yes a standard gauge line into Adelaide Terminal needs to be provided. I feel that a Melbourne to Perth via Adelaide luxury train has potential and that The Overland needs to be a public transport train with the potential to also carry tourists (as per XPT and the Qld coastal passenger trains do).
I remember doing the Canberra to Adelaide coach quite a bit when I was a kid.
It was hell.
I’m a coach driver and connected Casino to Brisbane for years and replaced many broken XPT’s over the years.
A fundamental solution is for V line to offer an express train or coach from Southern Cross Station to meet the Overlander during its trip for express passengers. The train would depart at 7am but the bus or express train leaves at 8:30am but they would both arrive at Ararat at the same time for example.
The same could happen at Murray Bridge or wherever in SA.
I think these long distance services are for getting people from regions into the cities and not an intercity service like it seems.
Most of my passengers out of Brisbane were heading to Wauchope, Coffs, Taree, Kendall, Kempsey for example and very few doing the whole slog into Central. Those going the whole way were typically those entitled to extremely cheap travel like $2.50 from NSW Govt+ $17 for the QLD crossing or something ridiculous like that.
Those people benefit from HSR the most
Great video, and well researched with plenty of good points and suggestions. Australia lags behind the world when it comes to decent passenger long distance rail travel, even the XPT is showing its age. Even in India and Malaysia found express passenger trai8n travel to be far superior on what we have here. Journey Beyond is getting paid by the SA & VIC governments to keep the service running, otherwise it would have been canned long ago. No state subsidy, no train.
That just changed with a $1.4 million subsidy from South Australian government in its recent budget.
In India & Malaysia the trains are always packed, not many have a car!
@@nickhiscock8948 That is good news, I wasn’t sure what happened after the new Labor government took over. (and the evil NLP were kicked out of office)
I'm one serious train convert, I enjoyed the Overland so much I made 2 videos about it. However, IF... And that is a big if, they are going to go back to night service, the train carriages need a serious redo. They so old and creaky having a comfy sleep is near impossible. Going daily on a day service seems like the the most ideal. I agree with the Keswick issue. Lots of people got off the train and crowded at taxi ranks waiting for taxis that didn't turn up. I'm a local so I actually parked at the terminal, so no issues for me. But I felt bad for visitors. Great video, by the way!
Thanks for the update on The Overland. You explained the issues involved very well. I hope the problems can be resolved to the satisfaction of all future passengers and locals of all the towns along the way. Cheers Steve
Great video Martin. Just something on gauge conversion since the topic is relevant. Gauge conversion is always seen as expensive and it usually is, but not because moving a rail over a few mm is expensive, but because it usually goes hand in hand with upgrading a previously neglected line. If we wanted to seriously consider gauge converting Melbourne to Ballarat and Ararat, we could do the ground work now and have everything in place to move the rail a few mm cheaply and quickly when required.
Very good point!
Most of the Ballarat line is on concrete sleepers with the rail fixing points built in for Broad gauge.
Not like wooden sleepers just drilling new holes.
Next problem is pointwork and other connecting lines for Maryborough etc. Even East of Sunshine do you then need to convert the whole Bendigo Echuca line and so Sunbury suburbans. Then gauge converted stock.
Possibly more that are not thought about.
Costs rapidly blowing out once a more realistic view is taken.
All that for the very minority use of Overland time saving.
An interesting point is how the Adelaide standard gauge introduced so many problems and solved close to nothing
So that politicians could solve the problem of changing trains at the South Australian border, as in the Victorian transport ministers (Brown?) speech on opening in the nineties. Imagined a solution to a problem that was not there.
He said in his speech that for the first time we no longer need to change trains at the border.
@@johnd8892 I’m aware of things such as sleepers, points etc being broad gauge only. I wasn’t trying to imply we just still a few holes, move the rail over and hey presto. My point was more that installing little things such as gauge convertible sleepers, gauge convertible sleepers etc should be done now, or rather as we already replace them. And that goes for all lines, not just Ballarat. The overland would be a side benefit, not the main benefit.
Having taken this trip 2 days ago, I fully concur with your analysis. This trip could be so much more.
I had the chance of travelling the overland, but the people I was with didn't want to do a 10 hour rail ride, so we opted for flying. The flight ended up getting delayed so bad, we would have arrived Melbourne at the same time if not earlier had we gone with the Overland route. Great video, next time to Adelaide I will definitely go for the rail option.
The railway union published a guide on how to fix the warrnambool service, available from the state library which I read back in the 90s. Basically saying improve the speed by adding a buffet car to stop the halt at Colac, stop the changing of locomotives at Birragara ( or Winchelsea) and improve the rolling stock. When West Coast took over they seemed to implement all the reccomendations and now V Line have taken the service back and it appears to be very well patronised.
All very similar to what you suggested here so maybe they will work.
As sleeping car trains re-emerge in Europe from the cheap flight days as an eco-friendly no brainer between major European cities and in the UK, a business case can surely be made here in Australia for luxury overnight business and leisure travel along the Melbourne - Adelaide and in particular the Melbourne - Sydney corridors. As we slowly emerge from COVID and we start to embrace face to face meetings and for the reinvigorated international inbound tourist market, IMO the case for a relaunch of the nightly Overland and Southern Aurora, initially using refurbished original sleeping car rolling stock and in partnership between government and private enterprise seems to me to be a no-brainer.
Hi. A railway enthusiast and railway signalling engineer here! I live in EUrope and my significant other comes from another country. When I go to visit her parents, I almost exclusively use trains. Well, local trains kinda suck here (except for busy mainlines). They run pretty fast but then you spend 20 minutes waiting for another train. Or changing to a bus that is already occupied from its first stop which is at the town square. Nothing bright.
But long-distance travelling is much other. I am quite an experienced driver, but driving a car is work for me... not my favourite kind of work. When I go by car, it means to depart my home town, drive like 50 km on the autobahn, then like 80 km on the 1st class road (13 m wide comfortable road that tends to not go through towns and villages) (The autobahn is not yet finished here.), then again few hours on the autobahn, and then once again 1st class road for one hour, one mountain pass drivable at 30 to 40 kph, traversing a whole 100k city, 15 km long curvy road next to a wild river, then few kilometres on the autobahn, and once again 1st class road, then once again autobahn, and then... finally... 2nd class road to where the target of a trip is. I guess you are pretty tired just from reading about it and imagining this route. I departed at 6 am, and upon arrival, it is 16:30, I'm pretty much tired and I call it a day! But when I take a train, it is much other question. I just take quite comfortable PT to a train station. Then 160 kph regional EMU to the neighbouring city (25 km). Here I walk to another platform and after a while, I already see the Pendolino high-speed train. I enter the 1st class carriage and sit on a comfortable leather seat (My Volvo has leather seats too - but not even close to the comfort of those in the Pendolino.). Immediately after boarding, we get free water, a sandwich, a newspaper and a glass of sparkling wine. Then we put headphones on... turn noise cancelling on, and listen to a podcast, or songs, we read our favourite books. We can see the train tilt in curves and beautifully slide between hills and mountains. When it is like 1 pm, we order a meal. Our national dish - Svickova with a great perfectly chilled Pilsner Urquell beer from a tank. A few moments after we finish a meal, we disembark at our final station. We are full of energy, fresh, educated by a podcast, chilled, and ready for adventures. Well, we wait for her parents to pick us up at the station, so the time bonus is quite zero. But hey! When we go by car - I am tired as hell. With train transport, we go for a 4-hour walk to the mountains right that day. And that is why I love long-distance trains.
And there is one even better thing - EuroNight (or NightJet) trains!
Living in Europe, have you have across pulse scheduling? Pulse scheduling is really effective at quite low frequencies relative to transfer window.
`. Bring back the Sleepers
Make it a night service again.
Give the Overlander AKA Overtimer, track priority.
Reduce the fairs.
Coordinate the service to match departures/arrivals of the Ghan and Indian-Pacific.
Yes, you just mentioned pulse scheduling, that should be a really high priority!
I can remember doing this trip a lot when I was a young child and using the older train with the sleeping births which were amazing to us as children.
We'd take this train from Melbourne every Easter break from school to see a uncle that lived in Adelaide and always had fun on the train.
Great video. I think a day time service via Ballarat /Ararat with a change of train at Ararat and a night time service on the current route would be much more practical. Buses at Keswick are surely a must have.
Great video mate, in regard to your plan for entry in to Adelaide, I personally think it's time the Adelaide suburban network is finally converted to SG. With that complete, it would make the possibility of The Overland being taken out of private hands and country rail services much higher.
Interested in your reasoning behind converting to SG.
Oh please we can barely electrify one line, dont make them tear up the entire network
You know what. There's some damn good points in all of your analysis. Totally agree with you Keswick analysis, a bus/coach connection there would solve the final leg issue easily.
The most appropriate term for the Adelaide Overland terminal is Cemetery Terminal since it is huge and close :)
Mate , your videos are always so well researched and informative and interesting , even for those of us that really couldn't care less about trains , you make it interesting and often a great history lesson .
Thanks for your efforts.
About the only thing I've had to do of note in trains , is about 20 odd years ago as an old trucky , I picked up an over dimensional case in height and in width from the Melbourne wharf ( Conaust if I remember correctly) , the case had in it a new replacement loco engine for one of the national units I think like the one on your thumbnail if I'm not mistaken ?
I had to take the box/engine to the Tottenham rail yard .
I ended up spending additional time at the yard because they did not have a frame wide enough to lift the box off my truck , which turned out alright , because while I was waiting for one to be brought down, one of the young workshop guys while we were waiting give me a bit of a look inside one of the Locos , and give me a bit of look around the workshop.
if I remember correctly the case and train engine weighed 20 tons in total , the box weighed 4 tons , giving us 16 tons for the diesel engine.
The engine was tuned to 4000 horsepower , apparently the same engine in the US they have the wick turned up to 4400 horsepower.
The young bloke told me all this 😊, the old grey matter still has a bit of life left in it ay 😂.
Cheers.
Great video! I see you used the Caledonian Sleeper between Scotland and London an example. It certainly is a good train.
It's been having some of the same problems as the Overland over the last few years, however. Until 2018 old trains were used and the fares were very reasonable - both for seats and for berths. They also had "bargain berths" - a few tickets on each train for a really low price which were very popular. I used the Sleeper a lot.
Then new trains were brought in. They are absolutely lovely trains but when they came in the fares were jacked way up. It used to be cheaper to get the sleeper than to get a day train and a hotel. Now it isn't. It is being promoted as a luxury tourist train - smart uniforms, the best food and drink etc. It was also made it's own railway franchise, run separately from Scotland's national rail service ScotRail which I'm not sure was a good idea.
The Caledonian Sleeper is in a funny position at the moment - it's heavily subsidised by the Scottish Government and the trains are running pretty much full - but mostly of tourists seeking a luxury experience due to the fare which have priced out everybody else. The train was recently brought back into the public sector so this does create an opportunity. The Scottish Government will have to think about what the Sleeper is for - public transport for the general public with consequent fare reform and more subsidy or a service for international tourists with less subsidy but not really fulfilling a public transport need! Or some way of suiting both markets.
I still use the Sleeper but I go seated now rather than getting a berth (which is normally more expensive than a day train but not too bad) and only go when I'm on my own as I can no longer afford to take my family.
Very interesting, thanks! It seems like a lot of places have this issue with sleeper trains, trying to make them a tourist thing rather than just existing on their own merits.
I don’t know what it is about sassing PT, but I find it hilarious. Keep up the great work.
Thanks for the video!
After talking and learning about the service for the past 5-7 years, I've finally caught it for the first time just last month on a trip back from Melbourne. It was certainly an experience and I do wish that a few of the improvements and suggestions that you've talked about could at least be implemented within the next year or so as a start.
It just is frustrating seeing the potential in a system but only for it to be just... left to the wayside x.x
Great analysis and achievable solutions. In 1990 I drove from Bairnsdale to Adelaide for a conference. Train travel was ruled out because of both the availability of seats from Melbourne and the added burden of connecting in from Bairnsdale which would probably have meant an overnight in Melb. I drove to Adelaide in one daylight hit but, on the way back, leaving at about six pm, broke the journey for about two or three hours to nap outside Horsham. I got back to Bairnsdale about midday the following day, just avoiding being cut off by rapidly rising floodwaters at Stratford, in time to be in turn cut off from the main town of Bairnsdale for 48 hours due to the same major flood event. Sitting with my feet up on the train would have been a most desirable option...and is something I still want to do, both to Adelaide and Perth, and possibly Sydney, although the logistics of all three journeys from south eastern Victoria remain daunting.
Thanks for this great video. I was coincidentally looking at the Overland yesterday and two things put me off. The Adelaide terminal location and complete lack of public transport options to get into Adelaide (they really should have at least a shuttle bus to/from the city). But also the terrible timings for departure from Adelaide. Who on their holiday wants a departure at 6.55 am?
On the otherside of greengill/anzac highway the showgrounds train station is there
I agree totally. Took this train from Melbourne in June, arrived at Parklands station in the dark - no taxis or transportation! On my return 6.55am departure with instructions to check in at least one hour before!
That check in requirement is ridiculous just give us allocated seating at time of booking and let us board and put our own luggage in the rack just like every other train in the country!
I think for air travel, the thing people overlook is that, while the part of the trip in the air is very quick, air travel in general involves a lot of waiting around and a complex process of actually getting to and boarding your aeroplane.
To travel, for example from Melbourne CBD to Sydney CBD involves firstly to 25 minute bus trip to the airport, then checking in (though most people do that online), baggage check, security, then waiting at the terminal, boarding (which in itself takes quite a long time), then at the other end, disembarking, waiting at the bavgage carousel for your baggage, then making your way to the airport train platforms to get a train into the city. If you consider that you have to arrive at the airport some 90 minutes prior to boarding, then you've just added 2 hours to your trip time, then probably another hour on the other end collecting baggage and further train travel. That's now some 5 hours - still half the time of the train, but with way more inconvenience.
Compare that with the xpt, where you arrive st southern cross, board, stow your baggage, find your bed, sleep, wait up at sydney terminal.
For me personally, it is sad to see what has happened, with the failed opportunites to modernise rail passenger transportation in Australia. My late father was the consist manager for many years and it was the first job I remember my father had as a boy. The last job he had was as the Marketing Manager for the old ANR before the passenger trains were privatised. He designed and introduced the sit up carriages on the Trans Australia between Port Pirie and Perth and the Indian Pacific between Peterborough and Sydney which if I recall was reasonably popular with younger people.
I really enjoyed your analysis of the issues with the current Overland service. It woud be so wonderful if the government took some action to turn it into a useful and comfortable service for passengers. The current timetable is just a joke with a twice weekly service. In relation to the gauge change option....maybe there will be more competition in that space in future. Stadler are also working on their own gauge changing technology at the moment.
The low key gunzel in me is really enjoying these videos :). Great stuff. I've only gone as far as Albury on a train so was fun to hear about this.
I took The Overland several years ago, prior to COVID. It was a great trip, particularly the section through the Adelaide Hills, but so inconvenient. All passengers are meant to arrive one hour early so baggage can be checked in, even if you don't have checked in baggage. I took the local train from my station (Coromandel) in the dark, and walked from the Showgrounds station to the Adelaide Parklands station. About two hours later I passed through Coromandel again on The Overland heading toward Melbourne. In a previous era The Overland stopped at Bridgewater for connection to the local train, An equivalent stop at Belair would be feasible as the standard guage platform is still in good condition.
One reason why DMUs couldn't be used on the service is because all level crossings would need to be upgraded to include boomgates, as has occurred on the Albury line.
The point about 'pointy trains' is spot on. Locally to me in the UK we have trains that look like the velocity, that are capable of 160km/h and never run faster than 90km/h because of bad level crossings and line quality.
Beautifully done.
You are spot on, the VLo is not the correct solution as a replacement. For intrastate services from Horsham to Melbourne, the long distance fleet VLo would be ideal. This would actually improve the local services and provide the daylight service, potentially allowing the Overland to be an Overnight Service again. A carefully timetabled connection of those daylight services at Ararat, would allow those going to Melbourne to transfer, whilst providing a direct service to Geelong (obviously it would still run to Melbourne for servicing), but it also create the path of Horsham to Ballarat, which can't be done as a single train because of the Gauge.
The current carriages, when the inter-carriage doors work are quiet and comfortable, but by comparison to the N Sets, creak and groan a lot more when the doors are inoperative, which makes the trip less bearable. I agree that VLine would be the preferred operator, however, Journey Beyond seems to be more interested in the service than GSR.
I'm glad you mentioned the "Keswick Conundrum". These days, people travelling on the Ghan, Indian Pacific or Southern Spirit are chauffered in for their trip, built into their premium fares, with the abandonment of Economy Class. So the Overland without its price premium doesn't include the option. In the lead up to the state election, there has been talk of a Talgo style commuter train between Mt Barker and Adelaide, so the gauge change is potentially a candidate, although Dual Gauge on the Up Belair, Down Gawler lines would probably be fine too. The drawback of arriving the overnight train at Adelaide Station, is that ARS would be very busy arriving in the Morning Peak. In Sydney, the Indian Pacific has to be turned around and out by 3pm to avoid the peak at Central. A similar issue exists at ARS. The Dock Platform with flyover does have potential though.
Personally, I think the return of the Sleeper leaving approx 8:30pm and arrivng around 7am is the right option. Adding the accommodation, means you actually have the day to tourist in Melbourne or Adelaide. The daylight options are good, but in SA, Murray Bridge and Bordertown are not used to commute to Adelaide (who wants to commute to Adelaide at 4:30pm in the afternoon except enthusiasts like me), but rather pickup points to go into regional Victoria or to Melbourne. Going to Bordertown, the Coach Services runs in Parallel on Sunday leaving at 10am rather than 7:45am, with no competition on Thursday. Murray Bridge has multiple services in the day as buses which are way cheaper full fare.
The other curio, for the Thursday timetable, why not leave and arrive an hour later throughout to avoid the oncoming freight traffic? It could tail PM6 up the hill, instead of leaving well ahead of it.
Once again, a beautiful analysis.
I took the Overland both ways in 1987. In fact I traveled all over Australia by rail for entire month of May using a 1 month 1st class rail pass (Australia National existed then).
This was sooo interesting. Really. THANK YOU.
I was 9 years old in 1962 when I first travelled with my mother on the overnight 'Melbourne Express' .. from Adelaide Railway Station. It was an adventure!
Over the years I have travelled on 'The Overland' many times.
The deterioration of the service has been PAINFUL to watch.
Keswick 'Terminus' .. says it ALL.
I think there is a good case to be made to upgrade the service and make it a viable option to the regular 'new normal' .. HORROR .. of 21st century Australian airport chaos!!!
But then again .. what would I know? (30 years spent in airline sales and marketing). LOL!!
The talk about rolling stock in New Zealand reminds me of NZ's new Te Huia service between Auckland and Hamilton, where we recently reconditioned a number of old British Rail Mk2 carriages [previously used in push-pull suburban trains in Auckland] for the inter-city service.
Toilets installed, wifi installed, seats, tables, power points, a cafe, etc etc etc.
The 50 year old carriages brought up to a decent standard.
The sleepers on the adelaide metro track are already dual gauge so for the run into Adelaide station you would just need to add a rail. This could cross over at Goodwood station to provide a stopping point outside of central adelaide.
I’ve taken a velocity countless times from Bairnsdale to Melbourne, and after four hours you’re ready to get off. It’s a good ride, but they aren’t accommodating to long rides
Thanks for this. It was quite informative. One thing that I think government interest could help solve is making concession tickets more widely available for the Overland. Currently, I believe it's limited to pensioners.
I have taken that Melbourne-Adelaide coach multiple times - granted a decade ago by this point. It certainly is an experience.
It was also more convenient than the Overland - even when it was still running three times a week at that point.
I just want to say that this video has (so far) 21.8K views and 1.9K likes. This is a lot of people who want info on Aussie trains! I'm so glad to have discovered that I'm not alone. I'm from Tasmania, no passenger services (except for horribly expensive tourist ones) since the 1970s. If enough of us jump up and down, talk to MPs and so on, we can get these changes.
Great video. I think the Vlocity is a plausible option, but they would have to be brand new and specifically made for the Overland by completely redesigning the interior for long distance to travel.
19:43: also, there used to be a keswick station, but they demolished it in favour of the Showgrounds, it would’ve been better if it were the other way round.
In September 1994, it was still an overnight service and it cost me $504 to go Melbourne to Adelaide on the Overland with a day in Adelaide before the Indian Pacific from Adelaide to Perth. Not sure if that was NZD or AUD. There were buses from Keswick into Adelaide and the casino but I can't remember if they were free. I hope people support the trains as you will be sorry when they are gone.
A very informative and well produced analysis. I'm all for keeping loco hauled trains as DMUs are a curse for long travel with their constant vibration. Although that Stadler train where the diesel engines are in their own short carriage and act as generators for the electric motors look interesting.
Excellent Video. My wife and I recently travelled on the Overland both to and from Adelaide and loved the experience, and wanted to use the journey as a practice run for the Ghan, but of course without the overnight sleeper component, its not really purpose built for that long luxury journey, and so probably didn't give us a true idea of what the Ghan may be like.
Hopefully some of your suggestions may be taken up. Certainly it is an alternative to air/road travel, rather than the travel experience you would look for on the 3 or 4 day journey.
Keswick was a rail freight yard. It was a disgrace when they moved out of the Adelaide station.
A very sound analysis without even a hint of foam.
I made a trip from Melbourne to my brothers place in Tailem Bend, SA. I looked at the overland, but ended up taking the bus.
Reasons: 1)the tourist aspect of the overland made it expensive compared to the bus, more than twice the price one way for my return bus ticket
2) timetable - the bus runs daily (and nightly) I wasn’t staying for a week
3) the bus stops in Tailem Bend, in walking distance to my brothers. The train would take me past them into Murray Bridge, despite Tailem Bends train station being in service
Very interesting. I travelled on this service in March 1996 (CLP loco). Chose the cheaper sit up option, wasn't the best. I think it's beat to stick to loco hauled and avoid underfloor motor vibration. I liked the 1960s cars which harked back to the golden age of rail travel. Having just been in UK and traveled about a lot by rail, I specially tried where possible to use the now vanishing HSTs rather than likes of Voyager units which are way less comfortable in a few ways.
Being from across the ditch, it was interesting to note your mention of the AK cars, which, without doubt, have a superior ride. Of note, the Auckland to Wellington service had a similar name for many years, called the Overlander, as you are probably aware.
Interesting , clear and informative videos, easy to follow.
4:40 easy fix for that one, re introduce a V/Line standard gauge Vlocity service twice a day to Horsham and back via Geelong, or if you don't want to spend too much money, increase frequency on the ararat to nhill coach.
If you want to go one better why not replace the overland with Velocities to Adelaide twice daily .
@@robmcfarlane3602 could happen but we need way more comfortable seats
I travelled on The Overland last March. Agree totally with everything you've said! No way should this be owned by private enterprise, it's a major, intercity line. The only positive is that Beyond have managed to keep the fare reasonably priced. I travelled from Sydney to Adelaide on the Indian Pacific in July, and it was very expensive. Not impressed by the trend towards turning trains into cruise ships, especially on main, intercity routes.
Having the terminal outside Adelaide City is just plain crazy.
The other thing it doesn't sync up with is the ferry to Tasmania which leaves from North Geelong. Foot traffic on the Spirit is not unusual, I've travelled that way many times. The train arrived 20 minutes too late which meant having to find overnight accommodation in Geelong.
I also agree that it should have an overnight service too. I remember going to Adelaide that way back in the 1980s, it was a great trip!
Great work! One example I can think of in terms of keeping the current frequency is a coach service from the closest V Line station in Western Victoria (no idea which one) and provide a coach service. In NSW the Broken Hill XPlorer only runs once a week, but there is a daily coach connecting Dubbo XPT and Broken Hill and it's not too much of a difference in time either.
Hence why they run buses. Unless you are going fast buses are better anyway. Long distance trains are useless unless they are very fast.
Great analysis and commentary. You have a great voice for narrating.
Liked your suggestions for the Keswick Terminal. Here in WA theses solutions have always existed at East Perth Station (where the Indian Pacific and local country trains run out of), as the suburban train stops right next door via a foot bridge, and at Bunbury Station, where a co-ordinated bus service takes you to and fro the train to the CBD, some 3km away, 7 days a week. I've always thought MEL to ADL would be a good Phase 1 for any true high speed rail or higher speed rail in Australia. Similar projects have been done in Europe, where the idea is to revive the rustbelt s'hole with the glimmering metropolis by connecting them FAST!
This is great. Outstanding attention to detail and obviously great thought and sensibility applied. I’m subscribing 👍
Having worked on the "real" Overland regularly back in the 70's, I must say this video is well researched and I am sure real railway people who have experienced the real Overland would agree with the narrative. If I could just expand on a few things mentioned....Yes rail did lose out in the end to cheaper airfares, but not so much the cheaper airfares, but the fact the rail chiefs just sat on thi hands knowing it would happen and chose not to do much about it. Especially the "management" of the Victorian Railways at the time. They had no idea how to be proactive. They somehow forgot that the Overland was not just a train between capital cities. It was also a train used by many passengers to roadside stations in between. I am talking about the broad gauge days of course. There were also daytime trains to Horsham, and even on to Dimboola back in the day. Some simple foresight by Victorian Railways would have kept the Overland running. South Australia did want to keep it going in both directions, but Victoria seemed to throw their arms up in the air and simply give up, with no solution to cheaper air fares. But aircraft do not land at roadside stations. A similar thing can be said of the old Intercapital Daylight of the day, but at least the XPT sort of took care of that, even with its poor reliability at times, and being replaced by buses a lot of the time from Melbourne to Albury. So they sell or lease the Overland to a private company with limited, if any, real knowledge of how rail should be run. They want it to be some sort of tourist cash cow, even though they do take roadside passengers for stations out west, which they are subsidised for. Now the staff on the train are very good as stated, no argument about that. But it is not the Overland as we knew it. They could still run it at night, would not cost much more, in fact it could be argued it would cost less. But if a government decides to sell something to a private operator, especially anything rail related, history shows it rarely turns out for the best. It may work OK in places like the UK, where the population is greater, and rail lines are all over the country, but privatising Australian long distance interstate trains has never worked. As for the Ghan and indian Pacific. they are nothing like the Overland anyway, never were, but again the attracion for travelling on those trains for most people, is prohibited by excessive fares. I call it greed to make money for shareholders. I am surprised that the government owned V Line hasn't been sold off to Great Southern Rail as well, to screw up. And we all know why that won't happen though. Because V Line actually provides pretty good service in general, and privatising it would be a disaster. Just like the suburban network turned out when that was privatised decades ago. It should all be government run again. NSW was smart enough to keep their suburban and country passenger services government run. Victoria in particular, is the laughing stock of the country, getting rid of what could have been excellent trains, if run by a decent management and not "bean counters" with no rail experience.
Fantastic analysis! I think it's a great point you make about the DMU issue that most operators (especially government operators) fall into. A lot of operators think that a DMU is great because 1. It's distributed power, therefore faster acceleration and time to top speed, 2. They are a permanently coupled, double ended set, so no shunting and reduced turnaround time. Yet they don't think about passenger comfort compared to a loco hauled train. I live in NSW and have been so keen to get to Victoria and travel on a Vlocity. If they are like the Endeavours and Xplorers in NSW I would assume that they are noisy compared to loco hauled traffic. I would love to see a video done by someone about the advantages/disadvantages of a DMU Vs loco hauled train. I often get off long distance DMU trips (e.g. Sydney to Bathurst 3 hours and 30 minutes) with a headache from the constant vibration.
Great video! I wish the public service were allowed to make submissions like this, or commission interested citizens like yourself to pitch these ideas to government backed up with government sponsored data and research. Keep up the great work!
What about a push-pull train? Basically combines the configurations of a multiple unit and a traditional locomotive-hauled service. Engine in front, control car at the back, so that the train can travel in reverse at full speed, cutting down turnaround times at termini
Yes exactly, like the QR Tilt train this is what I was getting at. The UK has gone a step further as well and has one locomotive/power car at the "Front" and a driving trailer at the "Back" allowing exactly what you have stated to occur. There's a number of ways operators can achieve passenger operations, however for some reason in Australia DMU's are usually preferred since the 1990's in most states.
@@thebats5270 it's not just in the UK. Rail operators in various other European countries have done so as well. Germany for example has high-speed trains operating in a push-pull configuration, namely the ICE 2 with a Class 402 electric locomotive, a Class 808 driving van trailer and Class 805-807 coaches in between
BRILLIANT! Very much appreciated. Bloody great work!
I’ve lived in Melbourne my whole life and didn’t even know this existed!
I always loved the old livery of the Overland the red and silver. Beautiful Consist. Lovely video! Also side note Ive never really liked Journey Beyond/GSR as ever since they took control of the these trains its become more expensive.
I have just done a trip from Adelaide to Melbourne and I took the Firefly overnight bus to Melbourne and took the daylight V/Link bus on the return trip. The Overland is very good for one thing. The food. The Firely/V-Line bus has two meal break stops but in both cases the road house food is just above greasy spoon level. And flying has lots of issues too.
I have travelled both the Overlander and the XPT with my family and although we enjoyed both, the staff and the feel of the Overlander was far more enjoyable.
13:21 I like to see some “new” sleeper cars on Overland train service + Melbourne to Sydney train being reproduced with the original blueprints.
Fantastic analysis.
This video was amazing
I am but a fairly naive American, but the rolling stock section has me wondering if the Viewliner design from Amtrak might work as an overnight/coach carriages for the Overland. The design could be upped to match the Australian loading gauge since the Viewliners were built with the restrictions the NEC has in the US, and are already in service for the most part.
Another very well presented video! Well researched and informative. I have wanted to do this trip for some years, however, the frequency of trains has been the major issue.
Like your great explanation of the Sydney Central flyover junctions a very impressive video!
I took this train in May 2022. Can recommend it. Having said that, I made a special trip to ride it as I have no relationship with either Adelaide or Melborne.
I’ve just sent a link to my contact I have in the Victorian Department of Transport . An excellent video with good range of suggested resolutions!
I a a big fan of the KiwiRail AK class, and I feel it's a real shame it they chosen for the XPT replacement instead of hard-seat underfloor DMUs. They'd be ideal for the Overlander, though as a cheap/free option, the possibility of cascading some older V/line loco hauled stock down to the Overlander as the Vlocity rollout continues should also be considered. These sets are still much newer than the overlander, and with a refreshed interior would be a good option going forward at minimal cost.
"Ideal but realistic world" (i.e. where there is some money and govt support, but no pie-in-the-sky things like a 320km/h TGV) for me would be to see a 12 hourly service, using AK class stock with day train and separate AK-class derived sleeper rolling stock, along with motorail cars, for the overnight service. In the long term it'd be fantastic to see the NSW Trains pretty much useless weekly Broken Hill Xplorer (another DMU, on a 13 hour journey!) also replaced with a daily Sydney-Adelaide motorail sleeper.