In the first issue of IVy magazine there was an article by David Mayo that stated that Hubbard's motivation for "discovering" Dianetic Clear was "PR and marketing."
@@MarkFisherandJanisGillhamGrady I think they charge 5,000 at flag that way they can put it on people's freeloaders debt and threaten them from leaving
Well, I'll betcha if I knew who you were, I'd be fondly remembering you, right now! So, here is to YOU and YOURS and all the fun and wonderful things you all are to each other - hugs and friendship!
My Mark V was the only thing stolen from my apartment after I was out and shortly after a visit from a Co$ official wanting me to sign a release to use my image in one of the training films. I wonder who would break into my apartment and take only my e-meter?
Yes, I see that. The SO created their own moral code. It seemed to have been built on "might makes right" and loyalty. "Never fear to hurt another in a just cause" from the Code of Honor comes to mind as well. The code was supposed to be an ethical code and senior to morals. I have not studied ethics at all, outside of what we called ethics in the Church. But it seemed to me that we created (or agreed to the creation) of our own mores, and that these were not really thought out very well. Our "ethics" weren't based on reason so much as expediency, often.
@@bogglerful here is how Ron explained it: "CLEARED CANNIBAL, the individual without engrams seeks survival along all of the dynamics in accordance with his breadth of understanding. This does not mean that a Zulu who has been cleared of all his engrams would not continue to eat missionaries if he were a cannibal by education; but it does mean that he would be as rational as possible about eating missionaries; further, it would be easier to re-educate him about eating missionaries if he were a Clear. " (from the book, "Science of Survival")
It's a tough video to deal with as an ex-Scientologist because Dan is still an obvious zealot of Scn in some degree. When you completely abstain from Scientology practices, thought, lingo and relationships you realize you never needed any of it. Wins are available in abundance in life, and if needed in therapy of all sorts. Scientology and the Sea Org was a great human experiment. Humans are amazing whether they have had Scn experience or not. Being a slave to Hubbard blinds you to the beauty of what is really going on out here in the real world and you end up negatively judging those who don't have your background of Scn knowledge. But I am sure Dan has many more layers to himself that we haven't seen here. Sounds like he is married to a non-Scientologist and even goes to church with her. Thanks for the video Dan.
Hello Snake! It would be nice to talk with you, I'll bet. You've presented a lot to consider. There's a lot of positivity in your writing here that I agree with. In your thinking, please don't lump me in with those you consider are "being a slave to Hubbard"!🤒. Consider me an onion, if you like, but not a slave! Best to you!
Great story! Clarification on COSMOD mission. They succeeded because of incredible high level of care at every step for the new people coming in expressing interest. Personal nightly lectures including refreshments. Individual conversation after that to find your ruin and tell you the comm course will solve that for you. Getting signed up with persistent selling getting others to help. Often 20 people at nightly lecture, 5 to 10 first service starts. Personal supervisor who had lots of interest in you and how you were doing on course and in life. They worked closely with registrar to get you signed up for additional courses and life repair auditing. Lits of kindness each step of the way. Nightly wins and a Friday night graduation that was packed, often 100 people packed in. Had live music many graduations. Grew from 30 staff in 74 to about 100 in 78. Many staff Dan signed up for academy. Had about dozen auditors working full time and they were busy. How far it has fallen since then.
Yes, the COSMOD missions thrived. All this described was "the way it was", week after week. Thanks much for expanding so well on the little that I provided. Every so often there are campaigns to get church staff to go to Flag in order to get trained, as Flag is considered, somehow, to be an "ideal scene" that they can come back to their churches with. That's never worked. The "Ideal Scene" of friendliness and productivity in any Scientology organization was best expressed at the COSMOD missions and at a few other similar places, and in a very few of the orgs; in particular, Celebrity Center Los Angeles under Yvonne Gilham. It actually would not be very difficult to re-enact the COSMOD "system" for Scientology again. There's plenty of old time COSMODers around and they are still wonderful people. In my dreams I imagine such could happen again, one day! Such a place would be the best place to train executives in getting Scientology well known and well thought of again. Not Flag. The main thing that I saw in COSMOD missions was, day to day, a very high regard for people and courtesy, and encouragement and WINS. Once you get some momentum going like this in a group, and leadership fanning the flames of it, it just keeps growing and growing and everybody involved loves the experience and each other. Here is what the COSMODers LIVED by: (HCO Policy Letter of October 29, 1959 Issue II ) Title: SERVICE "I don't care how many rules you break if they're broken to give unselfish service to one another and the public. We live for service not for rules. "Where there's a group to be helped or a preclear to be processed or a student to be trained, see that it's done and if it gets done don't count the costs in broken rules. "We are essentially an evolutionary group. All of us together. We must not fetter ourselves beyond increasing our own efficiency, nor must we entangle our purposes with arbitrary laws which do not further our cause. Service is the watchword. "Orderly service is preferable to disorderly service but any service is better than no service. We are essentially breakers of "now-I'm-supposed-to's". Don't fall into our own new rituals so hard that we are no longer brave and effective. "Worldwide we are doing better today because of orderly comm lines and administrative patterns, we are making more headway and suffer less confusion, but don't worship our rituals. Be as orderly as you can. Follow our rules as best you can. But a rule can be wrong and service and our mission can never be wrong. "Use the rules until they prevent you from doing your job. But if these stop you, then to hell with the rules! Get the show on the road!" *** Unfortunately, the orgs, by and large, most ofter, lived by the rules which thoroughly entangled our purposes with arbitrary rules daily which just got in the way. Individual Scientologists everywhere are by and large, wonderful, friendly and competent people. No different than the COSMOD people. The difference was that they were not hampered and nullified by strict adherence to the rules laid out in policy, while the org and Sea Org starr were more taught to respect the authority of policy and the "leaders" the far-distant Sea Organization. (This last not said so well! I am under time constraint and I have not thought through these last couple of paragraphs well enough. @NoNameinNW - I'd love to talk more with you!)
But in the AUDITING tech, imsltho, there is so much good. The only parts I have seen that I am wary of are the evaluative OT Levels and the politically motivated sec-checks.
@@OneCharmedLife *"Have you ever had any unkind thoughts about LRH?"* One of many questions from the 1961 Security Check. Basically I agree with you, but there are hidden hooks, throughout Scientology - the subject - not just the organization.
This has been so interesting I'll look forward to the next one. It is actually always hard for me to hear people sing the praises of LRH or scientology, but Dan made a case (not that I agree). Anyhow, I think the emphasis on stats is one way that scn f*cks with people. I believe there is hypnosis and indoctrination built into the early courses, particularly the TRs. And I believe that the "ethics" is totally twisted. Would especially appreciate a discussion about these things. Hunger and sleep deprivation are well known torture methods that are crimes against humanity and should be prosecutable imo. Disconnection, it goes without saying, is a specious and destructive practice that is not unique to scientology, as is true of the purity culture, which I see as a way to make people ashamed of their own humanity. Also not unique is the "OTC" (one true church) stance that is indoctrinated into the members so that they honestly come to believe that no matter how much they suffer at the hands of the cult, they must go on because if they don't it will spell the end of humanity! Scientology is one of the deepest and most destructive of any cult I have studied and I would love to see it ended (knowing that is unlikely). I love Dan's humility and honesty here. He hinted that he may be an example of of a sunk cost fallacy; he may be right about that. Full disclosure I was never in and have been studying scientology for about 1 1/2 years very intently. Dan wanted to tell the story of his son raised in the cult so i hope you can cover that next time too.
It was only a few days before this interview that I first heard the "sunken cost fallacy" articulated. (In a youtube short of all places!) I am sure it was in the back of my mind when talking here. I intend to study this some more and do my best to be objective about it. I think also that there are situations where one goes through something and a great expense of time or money has been invested and then poorly evaluates the outcome, or regards the consequences of the adventure with cynicism that then blinds one from seeing the benefits that also come from the experience. Cynicism obscures good observation. Thank you for you respectful and interestED communication. I'd enjoy talking with you.
Great testimony I am with Dan, people had lots of wins. Ex scientologista have the responsability to separate with honesty the tech that works from the abuses of the church
"Ex scientologista" is derogatory labeling of those who don't agree with scientology teachings and is just as unfair to them as disrespecting people who merely believe in Hubbard's ideas.
Fantastic interview and keep it up guys doing great
Thanks so much!
In the first issue of IVy magazine there was an article by David Mayo that stated that Hubbard's motivation for "discovering" Dianetic Clear was "PR and marketing."
Talk about raising prices; student hat cost $5,000 at flag!! A complete violation of anybody's integrity who pays for it or signs an IOU.
Wow that is crazy. I think I paid $150 for the Student Hat back in the early 70s.
@@MarkFisherandJanisGillhamGrady I think they charge 5,000 at flag that way they can put it on people's freeloaders debt and threaten them from leaving
I can’t do those prices. Maybe, Next Lifetime. 😂
I fondly remember Dan. Don’t remember from where but remember all the same. 🎉
Well, I'll betcha if I knew who you were, I'd be fondly remembering you, right now! So, here is to YOU and YOURS and all the fun and wonderful things you all are to each other - hugs and friendship!
Hi Dan, I saw your video.
Hi Mike, good to be thinking of you again.
I’ve had MORE WINS in Scn than upsets, when I was in. Even today though no longer in I still win when I apply Scn Basics in life.
Once the "tech" becomes confidential, a person is auditing Hubbard "case," not his own. The OT levels violate the spirit of the Auditors Code.
@@bogglerful I believe that is the case. I have thought so for a long time. I think you have seen one of the major undoings of the subject.
@fekkyb Is that YOUR guitar playing I hear at your channel? Nice to hear. Thanks for uploading and hope to hear that you are still playing.
Ditto
When are you going to upload more of your guitar playing?
I still have my Mark V (Lefty). 😉👍🏼
My Mark V was the only thing stolen from my apartment after I was out and shortly after a visit from a Co$ official wanting me to sign a release to use my image in one of the training films. I wonder who would break into my apartment and take only my e-meter?
Comment at 57:04 reminds me of "A cleared cannibal is still a cannibal." LOL.
*Is that supposed to be an excuse for why some things in the tech didn't work?*
Yes, I see that. The SO created their own moral code. It seemed to have been built on "might makes right" and loyalty. "Never fear to hurt another in a just cause" from the Code of Honor comes to mind as well. The code was supposed to be an ethical code and senior to morals. I have not studied ethics at all, outside of what we called ethics in the Church. But it seemed to me that we created (or agreed to the creation) of our own mores, and that these were not really thought out very well. Our "ethics" weren't based on reason so much as expediency, often.
@@bogglerful here is how Ron explained it: "CLEARED CANNIBAL, the individual without engrams seeks survival along all of
the dynamics in accordance with his breadth of understanding. This does not
mean that a Zulu who has been cleared of all his engrams would not continue to
eat missionaries if he were a cannibal by education; but it does mean that he
would be as rational as possible about eating missionaries; further, it would be
easier to re-educate him about eating missionaries if he were a Clear. " (from the book, "Science of Survival")
I still remember his business card, swinging on a wide FN.
Hello Lenny!
It's a tough video to deal with as an ex-Scientologist because Dan is still an obvious zealot of Scn in some degree. When you completely abstain from Scientology practices, thought, lingo and relationships you realize you never needed any of it. Wins are available in abundance in life, and if needed in therapy of all sorts. Scientology and the Sea Org was a great human experiment. Humans are amazing whether they have had Scn experience or not. Being a slave to Hubbard blinds you to the beauty of what is really going on out here in the real world and you end up negatively judging those who don't have your background of Scn knowledge. But I am sure Dan has many more layers to himself that we haven't seen here. Sounds like he is married to a non-Scientologist and even goes to church with her. Thanks for the video Dan.
Hello Snake! It would be nice to talk with you, I'll bet. You've presented a lot to consider. There's a lot of positivity in your writing here that I agree with. In your thinking, please don't lump me in with those you consider are "being a slave to Hubbard"!🤒. Consider me an onion, if you like, but not a slave! Best to you!
Great story! Clarification on COSMOD mission. They succeeded because of incredible high level of care at every step for the new people coming in expressing interest. Personal nightly lectures including refreshments. Individual conversation after that to find your ruin and tell you the comm course will solve that for you. Getting signed up with persistent selling getting others to help. Often 20 people at nightly lecture, 5 to 10 first service starts. Personal supervisor who had lots of interest in you and how you were doing on course and in life. They worked closely with registrar to get you signed up for additional courses and life repair auditing. Lits of kindness each step of the way. Nightly wins and a Friday night graduation that was packed, often 100 people packed in. Had live music many graduations. Grew from 30 staff in 74 to about 100 in 78. Many staff Dan signed up for academy. Had about dozen auditors working full time and they were busy. How far it has fallen since then.
Thanks for sharing that information. We appreciate it.
Yes, the COSMOD missions thrived. All this described was "the way it was", week after week. Thanks much for expanding so well on the little that I provided.
Every so often there are campaigns to get church staff to go to Flag in order to get trained, as Flag is considered, somehow, to be an "ideal scene" that they can come back to their churches with. That's never worked.
The "Ideal Scene" of friendliness and productivity in any Scientology organization was best expressed at the COSMOD missions and at a few other similar places, and in a very few of the orgs; in particular, Celebrity Center Los Angeles under Yvonne Gilham.
It actually would not be very difficult to re-enact the COSMOD "system" for Scientology again. There's plenty of old time COSMODers around and they are still wonderful people. In my dreams I imagine such could happen again, one day! Such a place would be the best place to train executives in getting Scientology well known and well thought of again. Not Flag.
The main thing that I saw in COSMOD missions was, day to day, a very high regard for people and courtesy, and encouragement and WINS. Once you get some momentum going like this in a group, and leadership fanning the flames of it, it just keeps growing and growing and everybody involved loves the experience and each other.
Here is what the COSMODers LIVED by:
(HCO Policy Letter of October 29, 1959 Issue II
)
Title: SERVICE
"I don't care how many rules you break if they're broken to give unselfish service to
one another and the public. We live for service not for rules.
"Where there's a group to be helped or a preclear to be processed or a student to be
trained, see that it's done and if it gets done don't count the costs in broken rules.
"We are essentially an evolutionary group. All of us together. We must not fetter
ourselves beyond increasing our own efficiency, nor must we entangle our purposes with
arbitrary laws which do not further our cause.
Service is the watchword.
"Orderly service is preferable to disorderly service but any
service is better than no service.
We are essentially breakers of "now-I'm-supposed-to's". Don't fall into our own new
rituals so hard that we are no longer brave and effective.
"Worldwide we are doing better today because of orderly comm lines and
administrative patterns, we are making more headway and suffer less confusion, but don't
worship our rituals. Be as orderly as you can. Follow our rules as best you can. But a rule
can be wrong and service and our mission can never be wrong.
"Use the rules until they prevent you from doing your job. But if these stop you, then to
hell with the rules! Get the show on the road!"
***
Unfortunately, the orgs, by and large, most ofter, lived by the rules which thoroughly entangled our purposes with
arbitrary rules daily which just got in the way.
Individual Scientologists everywhere are by and large, wonderful, friendly and competent people. No different than the COSMOD people. The difference was that they were not hampered and nullified by strict adherence to the rules laid out in policy, while the org and Sea Org starr were more taught to respect the authority of policy and the "leaders" the far-distant Sea Organization.
(This last not said so well! I am under time constraint and I have not thought through these last couple of paragraphs well enough. @NoNameinNW - I'd love to talk more with you!)
The people who can only see good in the "tech," and those who can only see bad in the tech, are a challenge,
The "tech" is a mix of good and bad.
But in the AUDITING tech, imsltho, there is so much good. The only parts I have seen that I am wary of are the evaluative OT Levels and the politically motivated sec-checks.
@@OneCharmedLife *"Have you ever had any unkind thoughts about LRH?"* One of many questions from the 1961 Security Check.
Basically I agree with you, but there are hidden hooks, throughout Scientology - the subject - not just the organization.
@@bogglerfulyes. That's right. A lot to discuss.
Awesome card.
Yes, I agree. Good to remember.
This has been so interesting I'll look forward to the next one. It is actually always hard for me to hear people sing the praises of LRH or scientology, but Dan made a case (not that I agree). Anyhow, I think the emphasis on stats is one way that scn f*cks with people. I believe there is hypnosis and indoctrination built into the early courses, particularly the TRs. And I believe that the "ethics" is totally twisted. Would especially appreciate a discussion about these things. Hunger and sleep deprivation are well known torture methods that are crimes against humanity and should be prosecutable imo.
Disconnection, it goes without saying, is a specious and destructive practice that is not unique to scientology, as is true of the purity culture, which I see as a way to make people ashamed of their own humanity. Also not unique is the "OTC" (one true church) stance that is indoctrinated into the members so that they honestly come to believe that no matter how much they suffer at the hands of the cult, they must go on because if they don't it will spell the end of humanity! Scientology is one of the deepest and most destructive of any cult I have studied and I would love to see it ended (knowing that is unlikely).
I love Dan's humility and honesty here. He hinted that he may be an example of of a sunk cost fallacy; he may be right about that. Full disclosure I was never in and have been studying scientology for about 1 1/2 years very intently. Dan wanted to tell the story of his son raised in the cult so i hope you can cover that next time too.
It was only a few days before this interview that I first heard the "sunken cost fallacy" articulated. (In a youtube short of all places!) I am sure it was in the back of my mind when talking here. I intend to study this some more and do my best to be objective about it. I think also that there are situations where one goes through something and a great expense of time or money has been invested and then poorly evaluates the outcome, or regards the consequences of the adventure with cynicism that then blinds one from seeing the benefits that also come from the experience. Cynicism obscures good observation. Thank you for you respectful and interestED communication. I'd enjoy talking with you.
@@OneCharmedLife Any time Dan.
@@barbtries Could you reach out to Mark and Janis for my contact data?
Great testimony
I am with Dan, people had lots of wins. Ex scientologista have the responsability to separate with honesty the tech that works from the abuses of the church
"Ex scientologista" is derogatory labeling of those who don't agree with scientology teachings and is just as unfair to them as disrespecting people who merely believe in Hubbard's ideas.
@@Holly-days Hi Holly, I don't understand what you are saying here, and I would like to. I am not challenging you here. I'd like to understand.
Hello and thank you for your communication. "scientologista" should read "scientologists", am I right?
@@OneCharmedLifeyes it was a typo😂
Beans and Rice and Oat Meal is ALL CARBS. Malnutrition. 🤦🏻♂️
What if someone becomes diabetic? Certainly not a good diet for that.