So many people misunderstood the Illari vs Cass one. The point isn't that her ttk was faster at range - of course it is. The point is that Cass' ttk ISN'T better up close. There is no range where Illari is worse at DPSing than Cass, the DPS character. THAT'S the point.
Honestly; do we even know if Illari's primary is affected by the armour changes? Because confirming that one way or another would go a looooong way to figuring out why this is the case (and if it's a bug, like I suspect it is).
Not considering the roles though. Mcree is free to get up close to deal constant damage, using his right click and grenade to deal damage, while Illari needs to focus on healing. Saying "oh but in a vacuum illari can do more damage per headshot" is nonsense. Go compare Mcree to Widowmaker then, see whos TTK is better than whose then.
Counter swapping will never not be a problem unless 6v6 comes back. You can argue which one you prefer until the cows come home. But counter swapping will always be a fundamental part of 5v5. And that's that.
6v6 isn't going to fix the game either. The whole argument is just trading one problem for the other and either way you end up alienating half the fanbase
@@Rohndogg1 you're right. but in the end we're gonna have to choose one and balance the game off of that. So really we just have to choose the one with an actual path forward. I haven't been following the details so I'm really unsure which one it will be.
tbh back in overwatch 1 despite the long tank queues there was not much counter swapping back then (6v6) i mean there definitely was some(i don't remember though) but not as much as now tanks which makes me sad because i like playing tank and now want to try playing the same tank as much as i can in games even if the tank is counterswapped. I'd say its mostly tanks trying to counterswap each other but dps definitely have swapped off to counter tanks as well either way 6v6 can either fix counterswapping a bit or worsen it who knows
@@Rohndogg1 6v6 with no other changes, yes. However, with 6v6 there is a way to solve many if not all of those problems, in 5v5 the fundamental issues with the format prevent those solutions entirely.
Sure, and that's why a lot of the player base doesn't need to take all the complaints from pros seriously. Of course the devs do. but a lot of the complaints aren't really a detriment to the enjoyment of the game for most players other than some very clearly horrible metas like double shield.
At around the 12:00 mark flats talks about how it feels like there’s basically 2 different groups fighting for what overwatch should be. There’s a very simple reason for that. It’s that overwatch 2 brute forced 2 different game communities together. When they closed overwatch and decided to make big changes to the gameplay for overwatch 2 they just brute forced 2 different communities together.
2:31 it's adorable that he thinks the mercy buffs would change anything significantly. Yeah, she's a little better, but it's like going from F teir to D teir
I do with with Illari that they made the right click heal actually more worth it than the pylon. The pylon shouldn't be the main source of her healing and I should have to commit a full dive just to kill a turret
I always thought the bean was supposed to be your "OH SHIT!" button, see a critical ally? pump up the sun rays but that thing depleates to fast, I like the idea of it recharging faster if you don't deplete it completly but it's kinda meh in practice
It isnt and it doesnt. Her pylon is for sustained damage, popping small shots of hp to the lowest target, her right click is full on burst hp. Its like saying Bap should have more healing on his right click so he doesnt have to rely on his aoe healing everyone so much. The pylon is arguably her main source of healing despite this which has multiple flaws in positioning, being killed/hacked, being stuck in a location, having small and slow heals that take time to get to where its needed, targets the lowest hp so you have no control and they might die before it even gets there. Honestly I dont get why everyone is so mad at Illari when the other supports do what she does, but also other impactful things. Oh no she has a passive heal bot....but she doesnt have anti heal, or a sleep, or any form of cc, no defensive ult ect ect ect. People who complain about her always forget that she was designed to have more downtime to fire because people who played support wanted more time to actually shoot things in a shooter game, and they also forget that although they are in the supportive role, it doesnt mean they cant dps, as if dps roled characters are the only ones allowed to do damage.
I completely agree I don’t think her pylon should have infinite up time it’s so much value that the player isn’t even doing. Like even with a dps moira the healing gets shifted to ur other support, but illari just dps’ing? It gets shifted to an automatic turret 😐. There should be trade offs in this game and a pylon that constantly heals the whole game isn’t one of them. They should make it so you’d have to think about when to place it cause it has an amount of time it’s out
@@natedavis2944 This is a kinda reductive way of looking at the ability and not the actual function it serves, nor the comparison compared to the rest of the roster. 1, positioning and preplanning is required, therefore the player is doing something. 2, I dont understand why youre defending a dps moria who isnt healing but is dps but also saying illari is just dpsing whilst her healing is continuing and as a design choice made by the devs? So are you saying that a dps moria is making the team worse so at least its a trade off? Do you not understand that support is a role and not the only form of gameplay? Hence the existence of kiri, zen and illari? 3, Do you not think that her burst healing being low on resource and needing to be semi close range isnt a trade off for a killable, positionable, uncontrollable and low healing pylon? I would argue that it being shot at and or killed, or having to be repositioned every fight, or consantly is exactly what youre advocating for and honestly just arguing that you dont like how her kit is meant to be played, whilst not complaining about Baps aoe heals, Anas firing her gun to do massive healing and anti grenade, Zens lock on healing, Kiris lock on healing, lucios aoe healing, morias magnetic orb/piss stream ect ect... Like this can go on forever, but actually compare her to the rest of the cast and youll see that shes not even the worst of them.
Most visible at 4:32, there is a line across your screen that is visible the whole time. Look in the bottom left of the vertical video. I know its not my phone or monitor, it shrinks down to fit the window when I close fullscreen.
I'm actually confident that Winton never has to swap regardless of enemy comp, you make space, take aggro, force cooldowns, peel for your team and live. Reaper is kiteable asf, bastion needs turret to be threatening, any tank counter picks like hog junk queen you can literally just jump over them. Dva you just need to keep track of micro missles and ur good. Basically in situations you can't hard dive a target you just take aggro so your team can live more comfortably and pop off. Supposed undivable supports like moira brig (also many other matchups) can be countered by soft diving, walking into them and saving jump to chase them down after they use fade whipshot etc. There's a concrete playstyle for any matchup and the base kit of jump pack bubble tesla cannon is just insane
I would agree if the usual winton weren't ppl jumping in mid health into a hog + reaper and blaming supports or dps cuz they died. Also because of his range, i prefer dva that can do mostly the same. But that might just be me (i still prefer zarya, rein, orisa, hell even doom and ball over dva and winton tho)
@@MyaMore-cb7zb I wouldn't compare with usual Winton players because your teammates will always be vegetables. Obv usual people aren't utilising the information from my absolute based take, and hard diving into a full team will shred monkey as it would any other tank. The chars you mentioned like rein Zar are good on paper but lack the mobility, so a good Winton will just jump over them destroy the backline and force a peel. Also can't blame supports even if they horrendous, you have the best mobility in the game grab a fukn health pack, or peel for your team lol. Dva is a great pick but it becomes more of a matchup thing rather than a raw monkey diff thing, which my original point being that monkey doesn't have to switch and I will infact never switch
@@oregano3312 Oh absolutely, the tanks were based on 6v6 anyway, so if one might lack mobility, u could have a second one that would have it. Or in general have the second tank be there for the dps / supp getting dove on. And the my biggest issue is the maps. Some maps are just not for x tank or x supp cuz they were made for 6v6. There're just painful in 5v5. Ur take is ok, but never switching in a game that has map that are better with certain picks is kinda sad. But we had genji and mercy one tricks for years, so i'm not surprised of ur way of thinking.
The thing that I hate is that every single day they have the "Queue all 3 times" challenge , but basically anytime I queue all I get tank. Tank. Then Tank again. So it just kills my entire motivation to even want to play after going through all that lmfao
I never understand what the heck do people want out of supports. If they don't do any damage like Mercy players cry and hate mercy players for "Lacking skill" and if they can defend themselves they cry they're a third DPS.
I would argue that Zen and Illari are powerful DPS wise for supports, but they are also very divable. They also have limited healing once you take out illari's turret. Baptiste like Sigma is a problem. Bap has 3 health pools and shuts down most ults. He also does as much damage as Soldier at the same ranges and his healing is comparable to Ana or Moira. He just does it all and a lot of damage on top of it. Tank's biggest issue is that you are a solo warrior with no help unless you get a sup or dps playing beside you. There is no way for the second tank to counterswap or complimentary pick so you wind up on the wheel of tanks which is really annoying.
10:55 so real, i love playing sigma, as hes my favourite character. but since i started playing this season again for the first time since like season 5, the second i switch to sigma, the enemy team changed to Moira, Mei, Sym/Sombra and zaria like wtf lmao.
Kinda why as a tank main, I've abandoned Role Queue completely and moved into Open Queue. I'm just sick and tired of playing the counterswap game, I play Overwatch to have fun with my favourite tank heroes. I'm sick and tired of enemies picking easy heroes like Orisa/Mauga and just beat me because their heroes counter mine. I'm sick and tired of enemy picking sombra and disable my abilities constantly while in stealth. It's literally not fun, and all these happen in Unranked. In open queue, at least tanks have lower HP so tanks are somewhat killable and counterswapping isn't as rampant, and there's also added bonus of tank duo sometimes. I'm literally not having fun in Role Queue at this point and I don't think I want to go back to Role Queue anytime soon.
Yo flats,you heard the man say it. Optics hardly matter if it comes down to “not a bad experience because we won” or” why do I even play this competitive game just to lose with H O N O R and get reported for feeding?”
Flats basically saying that in Overwatch ur supposed to just int into a winston dive as a zen because "counter swapping" is not the main part of this game
counterswapping lowers the skill ceiling and is actively keeping players in a lower rank than they could be in if they stuck it out and tried to “counter play” rather than swap. been a tank main for a really long time now a few years at least and at this point i’m confident enough on queen ball or doom that i can play through any swaps and you win a whole lot more if you know exactly what to do.
I alway had an idea for brigs ult . Give her like 80 to 100 armor but she doesn't build overhealth give her team cc resistance and like maybe a little damage reduction or an increased rate of overhealth gen.
Its Tank Videos and Clips like the last one that make me think that its worth a shot to to try 5v5 but change it to 1 Support instead of 1 Tank. Like Supports are already really strong so buff their healing abit more, give them charges like Zarya has for Bubbles, (so that they can choose if they, as example, wanna double Suzu or maybe even tripple nade etc), give them a 1-Shot Prevention, (Like if a healer takes more that 100 Dmg with a single hit they dont take any dmg and it recharges like every 15 sec) and I think its would be worth to atleast try it. I also think that if U only have a single Suppert, Suzu, Immortality and such are not broken anymore and it would work decent. I imagine haveing 1 Support would be pretty fun for team comps since each Support would kinda create its one play style ? I personaly also think that if U only have 1 Support it could work well since Metal-Ranks usually just Healbot while Higher Ranks try to make plays. Now, I dont play OverWatch 2 anymore so idk if it would work or not. I'm also not sure about the Specifics like how many charges they would have, how much DMG they need to take to activate the Shield thingy, their Healing and DPS outputs etc but I think it makes more sense to just have a Single Support instead of a Single Tank. I know they Idea sounds insane but I believe it could work. Also I dont think every Suport should have the charge thing but it would give those who have it more ways to play since they could choose if they wanna, for example, Anti-Nade they enemy team multiple times or put Multiple People to sleep etc.
Honestly im confident in this development team to actually make 6v6 work much better this time. Compared to OW1 balancing, OW2 has been much quicker, experimental and bold to try out various new stuff and ESPECIALLY REVERT stuff, even if it doesn't stick the landing compared to the complete slog of balance patches for OW1. I doubt it'll ever fix queues tho but here's hopin' lmao
I wish tanks were more like traditional tanks. I don't know if it would solve the counter swapping or the role feeling bad, but I wonder if the game would be better if tanks did less damage, but all had cooldowns that protect and enable the team in whatever strat that tank is good for. Sigma is the closest to this for me at the moment, with Mauga being the complete opposite. That's my 2 cents any way! It's not happening any way as that would require reworks and Blizz can only handle 1 of those at a time, never mind to the entire role.
The overwatch 2 supports being dps and overwatch 1 supports not being dps is just not a real argument. Zen was one of the first 3 supports and damage is all he does. Overwatch supports always had high damage options
It's sad that the last guy compleatly ruined his very valid point by being toxic in allchat. Tanks are so strong that you have to counter them to win, but that is miserable for the tank, but then again if they weren't so strong they would just be useless or counteren nontheless
I would love to see the illari vs cass clip to be redone with them missing a shot inbetween landing shots :] Consistency is a concept that got ignored in those clips, no one is hitting all those shots.
You see, I do really wish I could stay flexible or play the characters I want. Sadly though, due to how almost 80% of the playerbase always counterswaps, it makes it a bit difficult. Like, I can only be annihilated so many times as Zen by the enemy sombra that counterswapped, and is camping me at spawn, before i get fed up and swap Lucio. It's especially hard due to the fact that most of the time your own team will BULLY you if you DON'T counterswap, no matter the role.
9:00 throne of anubis 30th August 2024 12am I was playing my game on ram 36 and 7 last point all went well until they swapped widow. I was powerless all I could do was watch my teammates die one by one. Then they went sombra and I knew it was over I was winning but my fighting spirit was gone. FOR E VER
the reason counter swapping is so bad for defeating tanks is because they keep getting buffed into monsters who you HAVE to counter swap or youll lose with 6v6 and two tanks you can weaken those tanks to be half or two thirds as strong, reason this is the case is because one tank has to cover 3 or 5 rolls; you need to guard your back line you need to flank you need to push the point you need to create space for dps you need to cover against the snipers you need to chase down squishes to confirm team mate kills you need to dive the enemy supports one person cant do all of this at best you can cover 3 of these and if you don't cover the others oh look counter swap time, and then blizzard will just buff tanks to be even bigger monsters, then everyone else is pointless so then they buff all the heroes and repeat -.-
No, Tanks have 1 role....create space. Everything you listed is the job of the dps or supports, or the supports having the capability of doing it themselves. Depending on what type of tank you pick, you are picking your job in your role of creating space. 1, you need to guard your backline. No you dont, if you are a main tank you do, if you are a dive tank then you can dive your own back line to help them, but supports have many tools to defend themselves and dps should be the ones to peel for them. 2, you need to flank. What tank is flanking? Ball? Doomfist? If so then they are just variations of dive. Again, supports and DPS can live as long as they are able to do their jobs respectively and you are getting value. 3, You need to push the point. No you dont, Tanks have never been the ones to push the point, they push up to the best place to fight back the enemy while the long range supports sit on point. If you sit on the point then you are wasting time and progression fighting on it, rather than allowing it to move while you poke. 4, Creating space, yeah like i said, thats your entire job, you can do this in varity of ways. 5, chase down squishes to confirm kills? this is irrelevant and not needed, you putting yourself in a bad position or potentially getting yourself killed from being harassed by people who just spawned will leave you in a worse situation than if you left them. Kills dont mean anything if they dont have impact on the current situation. 6, dive, again depends on tank, its technically creating space and depends on your tank pick, rein isnt going to dive so I dunno why this is in the list of roles that all tank players have to do, because ive already crossed out 4 of 6. 7, you dont need to dive the enemy supports, it honestly feels like youre forgetting what the dps are there to primarily do, or forget that in overwatch 2 the dps being targeted instead of supports is still viable. Basically, if youre a dive tank, you dive them. Thats your 1 role. If youre a main tank/more defensive, then you peel and push against their team. The rest of the shit you listed either isnt your job, or youre not giving your team enough respect to do it themselves. Tanks are unfun af for many, many reasons, but having to do 3 roles as 1 person isnt one of them.
@@scotttimbrell8632 Afaik the problem is mostly that because tanks are big loud and scary looking they draw everyones eyes to them which means the tank is the focus of attention the whole match. Anytime someone counters, it's probably going to be the tank because that's who they're paying more attention to. They'll be dumping more ults to kill you, more cooldowns, and doing a lot more to take away your ability to make plays even if doing it means they fail to counter your dps who can make other plays while they're sole attention is on you as the tank.
Youre never going to convince me that support doing some dps is a bad thing for the game. Whats bad for the game are over rewarded brain dead heroes like moira where you can do 10k dmg playing with your elbows and still top heal Edit: oh and btw they're in every. single. lobby.
Yea unfortunately for tank in its current state no matter how they balance it at the end of the day you can't balance human nature and players will always blame someone for the loss. With the other roles there's two people to blame but with just the one tank anything tank related that could possibly go wrong is gonna be blamed on the one person even if it didn't happen
Brig was the beginning of counter swaps? Are you sure it wasnt rein vs rein? Zarya bubble? the sheer amount of cc? reins shield vs anything? Ana nade? hog hook? I mean literally everyones abilities can and will counter literally everything you do. Its blatantly obvious when you compare it to a game like say Marvel Rivals where very litter is introduced to counter people and used for yourself in your own agency, other than maybe Captain Americans deflect shield, nothing really hard counters anyone and although you might not be favoured in a match up, they will never hard counter you into uselessness.
Crazy hot take. I absolutely despised double shield meta with all my heart, you spent 50% of every game desperately trying to break through thousands of hp in shields and praying you get a pick at some point. Such horrible gameplay
@rainer9931 I'm sorry but goats was a lot more fun than double shield. The only thing tbat tucked was that dps was completely ignored but that's still better than how 5v5 has been treating all of us
@@muzankibutsuji8919exactly dps was outdated in goats. That’s not a good thing. Plus no meta in OW2 lasted a year and a half like goats did. Or 2 years like double shield did. You are looking back with rose tinted glasses
@@lunar3055 the metas aren't lasting so long now because the devs are actually more actively working on the balance than the 2 years spent working on "OW2". If we had this dev team back then we wouldn't have had such long lasting metas. Nothing to do with 5v5 or 6v6 or the metas, just the dev teams.
I've been playing a lot of Juno instead of tank for the past week and I'm having so much more fun. It's kinda sad cause I can only really play tank cause my aim is dog
What if we try go in the other direction and make tank weaker the reason that counter swapping is so powerful is because tanks are so strong it feels like you have to and it’s the easiest way to win but if you make the thing they’re countering weaker it will be less tempting to do so And before the people who just want to argue and say they’re right apear this is just a random thought I had that could be good to try I’m not saying it’s the holy grail chill please
The ow devs said counter swapping is a part of the game now, so every chance I possibly get no matter what role no matter what map I’m playing I do my best to counter swap and make sure the enemy team remembers what game they are playing!
7:16 it would be interesting to see them use abilities and see how long it takes and at Cass proper range. Right click, roll right click vs illari's.... I guess Boop them further away? It's almost like this team game is about positioning and cooldown management rather than stats..... Weird
I've never been a 6v6er. But... the problem isn't Coutnerswapping, it's that Counterswapping the tank is free and easy. Everyone knows the tank counters in every role, and since there's only one, you can dedicate every single one of your team's characters to countering them. Doesn't work with two tanks. I'm on board with Flats' 7v7 idea. I want to at least try it.
How about the team just create more fun and interesting characters? Marvel Rivals have succeeded in that and I doubt they will ever need to have hero bans or swap limits.
Flats let people vent and say shit in Match Chat. It's one of the funnier parts of the game and if everyone was always so calm and nice even after a lose or hard win. It would be so boring . That's why I love playing with randoms in Valorant, they love shit talking lol
"we don't want one shots so we are upping health on everything"
"We are making is so people can one shot again"
At least they're trying to fix their mistake
Hanzos one shot is way healthier now. Props to the devs. High mobility characters being possible to oneshot was a great idea.
thats why you should avoid eating too soon before playing
@@kingauther7812 apart from all of the high mobility characters that cant get one shot
@@WizardBrandon a lot of the ones that felt it would be fair to be oneshottable can now be one shot
So many people misunderstood the Illari vs Cass one. The point isn't that her ttk was faster at range - of course it is. The point is that Cass' ttk ISN'T better up close. There is no range where Illari is worse at DPSing than Cass, the DPS character. THAT'S the point.
Tldr: why play cass when you can play illari
Which is a shame really
Honestly; do we even know if Illari's primary is affected by the armour changes? Because confirming that one way or another would go a looooong way to figuring out why this is the case (and if it's a bug, like I suspect it is).
Not considering the roles though. Mcree is free to get up close to deal constant damage, using his right click and grenade to deal damage, while Illari needs to focus on healing. Saying "oh but in a vacuum illari can do more damage per headshot" is nonsense. Go compare Mcree to Widowmaker then, see whos TTK is better than whose then.
it skips a crucial thing though: it ignores abilities. Cass' abilities increase his dps, Illari's lower her dps
they didnt consider the double cas right click though, which probably would be way faster to kill a target than Illari at close range
Flats worst nightmare.... Trapped on the moon with a horse girl
That's someone else's porn fantasy I'll bet
His nightmare, my fantasy
umm... actually she's a centaur!🤓👆
Can we pretend that the shooting stars in the night sky are like airplanes.
@@veefemby robocowtaur
I’m watching this in the McDonald’s drive through they better not mess my food up
did they?
@@idnerfthat they forgot the sauce :(
I blame flats
@@brianlancaster3575one time I ordered mcnuggets and the box was just full of sauce. Not sauce packets, just sauce
@@redrix1787How did they manage that???
3:02 that small talking break in perfect sync with the music!
Counter swapping will never not be a problem unless 6v6 comes back. You can argue which one you prefer until the cows come home. But counter swapping will always be a fundamental part of 5v5. And that's that.
6v6 isn't going to fix the game either. The whole argument is just trading one problem for the other and either way you end up alienating half the fanbase
@@Rohndogg1 you're right. but in the end we're gonna have to choose one and balance the game off of that. So really we just have to choose the one with an actual path forward. I haven't been following the details so I'm really unsure which one it will be.
tbh back in overwatch 1 despite the long tank queues there was not much counter swapping back then (6v6) i mean there definitely was some(i don't remember though) but not as much as now tanks which makes me sad because i like playing tank and now want to try playing the same tank as much as i can in games even if the tank is counterswapped. I'd say its mostly tanks trying to counterswap each other but dps definitely have swapped off to counter tanks as well either way 6v6 can either fix counterswapping a bit or worsen it who knows
@@Rohndogg1 6v6 with no other changes, yes. However, with 6v6 there is a way to solve many if not all of those problems, in 5v5 the fundamental issues with the format prevent those solutions entirely.
Well counterswapping was definitely a thing before too. Its just that its become a much bigger issue for tanks
Overwatch is fun when you play it intending for it to be fun.
So much this. The vast majority of the time I do enjoy it
Sure, and that's why a lot of the player base doesn't need to take all the complaints from pros seriously.
Of course the devs do. but a lot of the complaints aren't really a detriment to the enjoyment of the game for most players other than some very clearly horrible metas like double shield.
go play qp if u want 2 play ow for fun
9:44 Truer words have never been spoken so eloquently and precise in my history as an overwatch player
ashe mythic weapon skin confirmed lmao
Out of the 2cp maps the only one I miss is Hanamura.
At around the 12:00 mark flats talks about how it feels like there’s basically 2 different groups fighting for what overwatch should be. There’s a very simple reason for that. It’s that overwatch 2 brute forced 2 different game communities together. When they closed overwatch and decided to make big changes to the gameplay for overwatch 2 they just brute forced 2 different communities together.
2:31 it's adorable that he thinks the mercy buffs would change anything significantly. Yeah, she's a little better, but it's like going from F teir to D teir
I do with with Illari that they made the right click heal actually more worth it than the pylon. The pylon shouldn't be the main source of her healing and I should have to commit a full dive just to kill a turret
I always thought the bean was supposed to be your "OH SHIT!" button, see a critical ally? pump up the sun rays
but that thing depleates to fast, I like the idea of it recharging faster if you don't deplete it completly but it's kinda meh in practice
@@scottwillian2120 An active ability should do more healing than an auto ability that can be taking out of the game for extended periods of time.
It isnt and it doesnt. Her pylon is for sustained damage, popping small shots of hp to the lowest target, her right click is full on burst hp. Its like saying Bap should have more healing on his right click so he doesnt have to rely on his aoe healing everyone so much.
The pylon is arguably her main source of healing despite this which has multiple flaws in positioning, being killed/hacked, being stuck in a location, having small and slow heals that take time to get to where its needed, targets the lowest hp so you have no control and they might die before it even gets there.
Honestly I dont get why everyone is so mad at Illari when the other supports do what she does, but also other impactful things. Oh no she has a passive heal bot....but she doesnt have anti heal, or a sleep, or any form of cc, no defensive ult ect ect ect. People who complain about her always forget that she was designed to have more downtime to fire because people who played support wanted more time to actually shoot things in a shooter game, and they also forget that although they are in the supportive role, it doesnt mean they cant dps, as if dps roled characters are the only ones allowed to do damage.
I completely agree I don’t think her pylon should have infinite up time it’s so much value that the player isn’t even doing. Like even with a dps moira the healing gets shifted to ur other support, but illari just dps’ing? It gets shifted to an automatic turret 😐. There should be trade offs in this game and a pylon that constantly heals the whole game isn’t one of them. They should make it so you’d have to think about when to place it cause it has an amount of time it’s out
@@natedavis2944 This is a kinda reductive way of looking at the ability and not the actual function it serves, nor the comparison compared to the rest of the roster.
1, positioning and preplanning is required, therefore the player is doing something.
2, I dont understand why youre defending a dps moria who isnt healing but is dps but also saying illari is just dpsing whilst her healing is continuing and as a design choice made by the devs? So are you saying that a dps moria is making the team worse so at least its a trade off? Do you not understand that support is a role and not the only form of gameplay? Hence the existence of kiri, zen and illari?
3, Do you not think that her burst healing being low on resource and needing to be semi close range isnt a trade off for a killable, positionable, uncontrollable and low healing pylon? I would argue that it being shot at and or killed, or having to be repositioned every fight, or consantly is exactly what youre advocating for and honestly just arguing that you dont like how her kit is meant to be played, whilst not complaining about Baps aoe heals, Anas firing her gun to do massive healing and anti grenade, Zens lock on healing, Kiris lock on healing, lucios aoe healing, morias magnetic orb/piss stream ect ect... Like this can go on forever, but actually compare her to the rest of the cast and youll see that shes not even the worst of them.
Most visible at 4:32, there is a line across your screen that is visible the whole time. Look in the bottom left of the vertical video. I know its not my phone or monitor, it shrinks down to fit the window when I close fullscreen.
I'm actually confident that Winton never has to swap regardless of enemy comp, you make space, take aggro, force cooldowns, peel for your team and live. Reaper is kiteable asf, bastion needs turret to be threatening, any tank counter picks like hog junk queen you can literally just jump over them. Dva you just need to keep track of micro missles and ur good. Basically in situations you can't hard dive a target you just take aggro so your team can live more comfortably and pop off. Supposed undivable supports like moira brig (also many other matchups) can be countered by soft diving, walking into them and saving jump to chase them down after they use fade whipshot etc. There's a concrete playstyle for any matchup and the base kit of jump pack bubble tesla cannon is just insane
I would agree if the usual winton weren't ppl jumping in mid health into a hog + reaper and blaming supports or dps cuz they died.
Also because of his range, i prefer dva that can do mostly the same. But that might just be me (i still prefer zarya, rein, orisa, hell even doom and ball over dva and winton tho)
@@MyaMore-cb7zb I wouldn't compare with usual Winton players because your teammates will always be vegetables. Obv usual people aren't utilising the information from my absolute based take, and hard diving into a full team will shred monkey as it would any other tank. The chars you mentioned like rein Zar are good on paper but lack the mobility, so a good Winton will just jump over them destroy the backline and force a peel. Also can't blame supports even if they horrendous, you have the best mobility in the game grab a fukn health pack, or peel for your team lol. Dva is a great pick but it becomes more of a matchup thing rather than a raw monkey diff thing, which my original point being that monkey doesn't have to switch and I will infact never switch
@@oregano3312 Oh absolutely, the tanks were based on 6v6 anyway, so if one might lack mobility, u could have a second one that would have it. Or in general have the second tank be there for the dps / supp getting dove on. And the my biggest issue is the maps. Some maps are just not for x tank or x supp cuz they were made for 6v6. There're just painful in 5v5.
Ur take is ok, but never switching in a game that has map that are better with certain picks is kinda sad. But we had genji and mercy one tricks for years, so i'm not surprised of ur way of thinking.
1:52 "the grounded neutral footsies everybody loved overwatch for"
Juno is too wholesome for this world
The thing that I hate is that every single day they have the "Queue all 3 times" challenge , but basically anytime I queue all I get tank. Tank. Then Tank again. So it just kills my entire motivation to even want to play after going through all that lmfao
I never understand what the heck do people want out of supports. If they don't do any damage like Mercy players cry and hate mercy players for "Lacking skill" and if they can defend themselves they cry they're a third DPS.
I was scared that my screen was broken, but it is his video
5:25 anubis' level seems interesting ,but clash gives you 0 time to explore it
I would argue that Zen and Illari are powerful DPS wise for supports, but they are also very divable. They also have limited healing once you take out illari's turret. Baptiste like Sigma is a problem. Bap has 3 health pools and shuts down most ults. He also does as much damage as Soldier at the same ranges and his healing is comparable to Ana or Moira. He just does it all and a lot of damage on top of it.
Tank's biggest issue is that you are a solo warrior with no help unless you get a sup or dps playing beside you. There is no way for the second tank to counterswap or complimentary pick so you wind up on the wheel of tanks which is really annoying.
10:55 so real, i love playing sigma, as hes my favourite character. but since i started playing this season again for the first time since like season 5, the second i switch to sigma, the enemy team changed to Moira, Mei, Sym/Sombra and zaria like wtf lmao.
Real. Ball is my favourite hero just because of his unique mechanics. If there isn’t a Sombra after the first team fight, it’s a good game
Kinda why as a tank main, I've abandoned Role Queue completely and moved into Open Queue. I'm just sick and tired of playing the counterswap game, I play Overwatch to have fun with my favourite tank heroes. I'm sick and tired of enemies picking easy heroes like Orisa/Mauga and just beat me because their heroes counter mine. I'm sick and tired of enemy picking sombra and disable my abilities constantly while in stealth. It's literally not fun, and all these happen in Unranked.
In open queue, at least tanks have lower HP so tanks are somewhat killable and counterswapping isn't as rampant, and there's also added bonus of tank duo sometimes. I'm literally not having fun in Role Queue at this point and I don't think I want to go back to Role Queue anytime soon.
By the Set of the First Hour comes the hosting winds of a good harvest, coming forth the display of mere Seven Vermin Plaguing the Aged Sprout given
Overwatch tank is a test of the indomitable human spirit
Niandra actually predicted the Ashe mythic
Dude here I am watching another video and it ends at the perfect time let’s go!
9:02 bogur quote
Yo flats,you heard the man say it. Optics hardly matter if it comes down to “not a bad experience because we won” or” why do I even play this competitive game just to lose with H O N O R and get reported for feeding?”
Used to be a tank main in ow1 now I’m a support player
I love the title lol
"lucio is hard meta" - seeing this now is hilarious to me
I’m a tank main. I started playing some Lucio again and I’ve never had so much fun in a long time.
Of course, the character, with anxiety likes, horses, you can’t make this up😂
Flats basically saying that in Overwatch ur supposed to just int into a winston dive as a zen because "counter swapping" is not the main part of this game
The amount of stupidity to unironically say this is lowkey crazy
Bro Flats says the inherent game design of this whole swapping is bullshit 🥶🥶
You're not going to stop anybody with the sentiment at the end. It's going to make that type of behavior more common.
Just to kill counterswap make it so that we can only swap 2 times per round, it's that simple
counterswapping lowers the skill ceiling and is actively keeping players in a lower rank than they could be in if they stuck it out and tried to “counter play” rather than swap. been a tank main for a really long time now a few years at least and at this point i’m confident enough on queen ball or doom that i can play through any swaps and you win a whole lot more if you know exactly what to do.
I alway had an idea for brigs ult . Give her like 80 to 100 armor but she doesn't build overhealth give her team cc resistance and like maybe a little damage reduction or an increased rate of overhealth gen.
Its Tank Videos and Clips like the last one that make me think that its worth a shot to to try 5v5 but change it to 1 Support instead of 1 Tank. Like Supports are already really strong so buff their healing abit more, give them charges like Zarya has for Bubbles, (so that they can choose if they, as example, wanna double Suzu or maybe even tripple nade etc), give them a 1-Shot Prevention, (Like if a healer takes more that 100 Dmg with a single hit they dont take any dmg and it recharges like every 15 sec) and I think its would be worth to atleast try it. I also think that if U only have a single Suppert, Suzu, Immortality and such are not broken anymore and it would work decent. I imagine haveing 1 Support would be pretty fun for team comps since each Support would kinda create its one play style ? I personaly also think that if U only have 1 Support it could work well since Metal-Ranks usually just Healbot while Higher Ranks try to make plays.
Now, I dont play OverWatch 2 anymore so idk if it would work or not. I'm also not sure about the Specifics like how many charges they would have, how much DMG they need to take to activate the Shield thingy, their Healing and DPS outputs etc but I think it makes more sense to just have a Single Support instead of a Single Tank. I know they Idea sounds insane but I believe it could work.
Also I dont think every Suport should have the charge thing but it would give those who have it more ways to play since they could choose if they wanna, for example, Anti-Nade they enemy team multiple times or put Multiple People to sleep etc.
Honestly im confident in this development team to actually make 6v6 work much better this time.
Compared to OW1 balancing, OW2 has been much quicker, experimental and bold to try out various new stuff and ESPECIALLY REVERT stuff, even if it doesn't stick the landing compared to the complete slog of balance patches for OW1.
I doubt it'll ever fix queues tho but here's hopin' lmao
I wish tanks were more like traditional tanks. I don't know if it would solve the counter swapping or the role feeling bad, but I wonder if the game would be better if tanks did less damage, but all had cooldowns that protect and enable the team in whatever strat that tank is good for. Sigma is the closest to this for me at the moment, with Mauga being the complete opposite.
That's my 2 cents any way! It's not happening any way as that would require reworks and Blizz can only handle 1 of those at a time, never mind to the entire role.
I thought he said "I used to have 5 cats..."
The overwatch 2 supports being dps and overwatch 1 supports not being dps is just not a real argument. Zen was one of the first 3 supports and damage is all he does. Overwatch supports always had high damage options
It's sad that the last guy compleatly ruined his very valid point by being toxic in allchat.
Tanks are so strong that you have to counter them to win, but that is miserable for the tank, but then again if they weren't so strong they would just be useless or counteren nontheless
I would love to see the illari vs cass clip to be redone with them missing a shot inbetween landing shots :] Consistency is a concept that got ignored in those clips, no one is hitting all those shots.
You see, I do really wish I could stay flexible or play the characters I want. Sadly though, due to how almost 80% of the playerbase always counterswaps, it makes it a bit difficult. Like, I can only be annihilated so many times as Zen by the enemy sombra that counterswapped, and is camping me at spawn, before i get fed up and swap Lucio. It's especially hard due to the fact that most of the time your own team will BULLY you if you DON'T counterswap, no matter the role.
The Concord that's soooo good that at peak times it's player base is 226. So yeah great game
The Juno "Salutations" voiceline is not even close to slightly rare, I main her and she says it every game.
stap yapping so much :D
i've been playing tank and winning all my matches but I rather play dps and heal and loose half of my matches than playing that stressfull role.
9:00 throne of anubis 30th August 2024 12am I was playing my game on ram 36 and 7 last point all went well until they swapped widow. I was powerless all I could do was watch my teammates die one by one. Then they went sombra and I knew it was over I was winning but my fighting spirit was gone. FOR E VER
09:01 I can hear bogur from any u2gm in these words, you can't change my mind
Wait, you can hold bastions bird?! 😱
In a highlight intro iirc
We had slow Overwatch...FOR 3 YEARS
the reason counter swapping is so bad for defeating tanks is because they keep getting buffed into monsters who you HAVE to counter swap or youll lose
with 6v6 and two tanks you can weaken those tanks to be half or two thirds as strong, reason this is the case is because one tank has to cover 3 or 5 rolls;
you need to guard your back line
you need to flank
you need to push the point
you need to create space for dps
you need to cover against the snipers
you need to chase down squishes to confirm team mate kills
you need to dive the enemy supports
one person cant do all of this at best you can cover 3 of these and if you don't cover the others oh look counter swap time, and then blizzard will just buff tanks to be even bigger monsters, then everyone else is pointless so then they buff all the heroes and repeat -.-
No, Tanks have 1 role....create space. Everything you listed is the job of the dps or supports, or the supports having the capability of doing it themselves.
Depending on what type of tank you pick, you are picking your job in your role of creating space.
1, you need to guard your backline. No you dont, if you are a main tank you do, if you are a dive tank then you can dive your own back line to help them, but supports have many tools to defend themselves and dps should be the ones to peel for them.
2, you need to flank. What tank is flanking? Ball? Doomfist? If so then they are just variations of dive. Again, supports and DPS can live as long as they are able to do their jobs respectively and you are getting value.
3, You need to push the point. No you dont, Tanks have never been the ones to push the point, they push up to the best place to fight back the enemy while the long range supports sit on point. If you sit on the point then you are wasting time and progression fighting on it, rather than allowing it to move while you poke.
4, Creating space, yeah like i said, thats your entire job, you can do this in varity of ways.
5, chase down squishes to confirm kills? this is irrelevant and not needed, you putting yourself in a bad position or potentially getting yourself killed from being harassed by people who just spawned will leave you in a worse situation than if you left them. Kills dont mean anything if they dont have impact on the current situation.
6, dive, again depends on tank, its technically creating space and depends on your tank pick, rein isnt going to dive so I dunno why this is in the list of roles that all tank players have to do, because ive already crossed out 4 of 6.
7, you dont need to dive the enemy supports, it honestly feels like youre forgetting what the dps are there to primarily do, or forget that in overwatch 2 the dps being targeted instead of supports is still viable.
Basically, if youre a dive tank, you dive them. Thats your 1 role. If youre a main tank/more defensive, then you peel and push against their team. The rest of the shit you listed either isnt your job, or youre not giving your team enough respect to do it themselves.
Tanks are unfun af for many, many reasons, but having to do 3 roles as 1 person isnt one of them.
@@scotttimbrell8632 Afaik the problem is mostly that because tanks are big loud and scary looking they draw everyones eyes to them which means the tank is the focus of attention the whole match. Anytime someone counters, it's probably going to be the tank because that's who they're paying more attention to. They'll be dumping more ults to kill you, more cooldowns, and doing a lot more to take away your ability to make plays even if doing it means they fail to counter your dps who can make other plays while they're sole attention is on you as the tank.
Overwatch tiktoks are peak.
Youre never going to convince me that support doing some dps is a bad thing for the game. Whats bad for the game are over rewarded brain dead heroes like moira where you can do 10k dmg playing with your elbows and still top heal
Edit: oh and btw they're in every. single. lobby.
These titles are gettin wilder lol
Dude the toxicity in this game need stop people are starting to think it's worse than the league
My big thing with supports doing too much damage, is nobody wants to peel for us. Either we die too much, or do too much.
Hi Flats!
Yea unfortunately for tank in its current state no matter how they balance it at the end of the day you can't balance human nature and players will always blame someone for the loss. With the other roles there's two people to blame but with just the one tank anything tank related that could possibly go wrong is gonna be blamed on the one person even if it didn't happen
Brig was the beginning of counter swaps? Are you sure it wasnt rein vs rein? Zarya bubble? the sheer amount of cc? reins shield vs anything? Ana nade? hog hook? I mean literally everyones abilities can and will counter literally everything you do.
Its blatantly obvious when you compare it to a game like say Marvel Rivals where very litter is introduced to counter people and used for yourself in your own agency, other than maybe Captain Americans deflect shield, nothing really hard counters anyone and although you might not be favoured in a match up, they will never hard counter you into uselessness.
Hello pookie
😮
Nah. I would take double shield or goats over anything 5v5 has given us meta wise.
Every major meta seen in Overwatch 2 so far has been much worse than double shield... Don't know about Goats though
Crazy hot take. I absolutely despised double shield meta with all my heart, you spent 50% of every game desperately trying to break through thousands of hp in shields and praying you get a pick at some point. Such horrible gameplay
@rainer9931 I'm sorry but goats was a lot more fun than double shield. The only thing tbat tucked was that dps was completely ignored but that's still better than how 5v5 has been treating all of us
@@muzankibutsuji8919exactly dps was outdated in goats. That’s not a good thing. Plus no meta in OW2 lasted a year and a half like goats did. Or 2 years like double shield did. You are looking back with rose tinted glasses
@@lunar3055 the metas aren't lasting so long now because the devs are actually more actively working on the balance than the 2 years spent working on "OW2". If we had this dev team back then we wouldn't have had such long lasting metas. Nothing to do with 5v5 or 6v6 or the metas, just the dev teams.
What da dog doin?
ay i just wanna say i am comenting these drunk at 2 am
I've been playing a lot of Juno instead of tank for the past week and I'm having so much more fun. It's kinda sad cause I can only really play tank cause my aim is dog
Is it weird I enjoy tank? am I a masochist?
17 seconds ago is crazy
i thought i was the first TvT
That's how long I last when I see flats 500 pound gorilla nips.
Guys I quit overwatch in January but I have the urge to play it what do I do?
What if we try go in the other direction and make tank weaker the reason that counter swapping is so powerful is because tanks are so strong it feels like you have to and it’s the easiest way to win but if you make the thing they’re countering weaker it will be less tempting to do so
And before the people who just want to argue and say they’re right apear this is just a random thought I had that could be good to try I’m not saying it’s the holy grail chill please
Get rid of swapping, until round over
I thought flatstwo made stardew valley content. What happened? Am I missing something?
The ow devs said counter swapping is a part of the game now, so every chance I possibly get no matter what role no matter what map I’m playing I do my best to counter swap and make sure the enemy team remembers what game they are playing!
i'm starting to think these titles are AI generated lol XD
can you react to the 3 videos by Theory where he plays each role to master and shares his thoughts and struggles?
Making excuses for that illari clip is the reason OW is bad
Ah dude with interesting takes returns and then acts like a moron of course lmao good video flats keep up the good work Ruben
YYEEAAAAHHH
They should try limited swapping on matches, see how it works.
7:16 it would be interesting to see them use abilities and see how long it takes and at Cass proper range.
Right click, roll right click vs illari's.... I guess Boop them further away?
It's almost like this team game is about positioning and cooldown management rather than stats..... Weird
Frogger is white?
Counterswap = No Ultimate.
BLIZZARD
GIVE US JUNO SUMMER SKIN WITH HER GRIPPERS OUT
AND MY LIFE IS YOURS
I like her Martian suite but i'd prefer some outfits with more flare
I've never been a 6v6er. But... the problem isn't Coutnerswapping, it's that Counterswapping the tank is free and easy. Everyone knows the tank counters in every role, and since there's only one, you can dedicate every single one of your team's characters to countering them. Doesn't work with two tanks. I'm on board with Flats' 7v7 idea. I want to at least try it.
Competitive games should penalise you for counter swapping as a way of shaming you for just being unskilled
12:59 cry about it flats. This game was better when everybody used slurs.
Nice
Soo. Hero band and character swap limits?
How about the team just create more fun and interesting characters? Marvel Rivals have succeeded in that and I doubt they will ever need to have hero bans or swap limits.
It’s crazy that this 14 minute video has like 4 shorts in it. Flats fell off.
Hi
Overwatch on every role sucks in my opinion
Who tf uses TikTok
My friend disabled her match chat a couple days ago and she's been much happier playing the game #disable match chat
That guy who's talking in first and last Tik tok, make this section so boring. 😴
Flats let people vent and say shit in Match Chat. It's one of the funnier parts of the game and if everyone was always so calm and nice even after a lose or hard win. It would be so boring . That's why I love playing with randoms in Valorant, they love shit talking lol
flats is speaking fats on tank man......im loosing my mind more and more playing tank this damn game
Don’t you type in chat to enrage the toxic people tho? Kinda hypocritical