Why was Jaqen in Oldtown?
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- Опубліковано 6 лип 2023
- In Deep Geek - Insight and intelligent discussion on Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, The Witcher and more.
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Rumors of the awakening of magic in Westeros brought him to kings landing. Varys's Little birds led him to travel to the wall to learn about the Others. His debt to Arya side-tracked him to Harrenhal. Meeting Qyburn at Harrenhal led him off to learn about the War of Ice and Fire from Marwyn at the Citadel. Now Sam is his way back to the wall. What do you think?
Also old town has alot of that black stone from ashai? So maybe there is some magic laying dormant around old town
@papachungus799 I think the oily black stone is from ancient petrified ebony (shadewood tree/ shade of the evening) that gets magic power by the black comet in Ashai.
I think it's the opposing force of the the weirwood God, powered by the white comet in Westeros.
I think the magic has been awakened by the presence of the the red comet in the sky.
The comets are either Maiar or Valar.
basically the dude is stuck finishing side quests instead of playing his main quest lmao
@@NihilRefertSubSole13But when he finally gets to that last battle? OP AF
@@Matthew10950 George relates to "Pate", never finishing the main quest, ever finding all the side quests.
Euron Greyjoy has said that "He once held a dragon's egg but he threw it away in the sea". Dragon's egg are very valuable. Why would he throw such a valuable thing in the sea!
We know that He hired a Faceless man to kill his brother Balon. ( Arya encounters a witch that tell her this and Euron also brags at one point).
Since, Balon is the Lord of Iron Islands, faceless men will naturally, charge a lot of money for the assassination.
The theory goes as this - Euron didn't throw the dragons egg. He actually gave it to the faceless men as payment for Balon's murder. Jaqen is in old town searching for an old book on Dragons. He is looking for a way to hatch the dragon egg.
I'm afraid to say that the real answer at this point is "George hasn't decided yet."
....... You're absolutely correct though
Bullseye.
He was just Jaqen around actually.
@@jarlwhiterun7478 just Jaqen off
So, Bravos has three major seats of power, the Sealord, the Iron Bank, and the Faceless Men. It seems reasonable to assume that these three institutions have at least a working relationship with each other. My theory is that the Faceless Men act as a spy network for the other two in exchange for being allowed to operate in Bravos. No government or bank would be cool with an assassin guild chilling in their backyard, unless they had some sort of deal with them. A lot of the Faceless training and tactics make them really good covert agents (disguises, convincingly lying, detecting lies, etc). I think it is perfectly possible that Jaqen has been on an information gathering mission the entire time he's been in Westeros, and that he was never sent to kill anyone. We know the Crown owes the Iron Bank a fortune, so the Bank would have a vested interest in Westerosi politics, especially after Jon Arryn, who was basically running the place, mysteriously kicked the bucket and was replaced by a relatively unknown Ned Stark. I know you argue that Jaqen was hired by Littlefinger to kill Ned Stark, but I just don't understand why a guy who was capable of assassinating a Hand and King on his own would feel the need to hire super expensive, top tier assassins to take out Ned. If Jaqen was Syrio, then it would make sense for him to agree to train Arya, because it would mean regular access to Ned's quarters and whatever information happened to be sitting around there. Presumably Jaqen's mission changed from monitoring the political situation to chasing down ancient lore as rumors of Daenerys's dragons or the return of the Others spread. Someone back in Bravos probably wanted more information and what better place to get it than the Citadel?
Why do you think they are a major seat of power? Oh and Jaqen is not Syrio, Syrios entire philosophy is contrary to the house of black and white, as is everything he teaches her. He is supposed to be a contrast for her journey.
@@cop5144 Okay, maybe my Jaqen is Syrio theory is more wishful thinking than reality.
As for the Faceless Men being a seat of power. They are a renowned assassin's guild that could infiltrate anywhere and kill anyone for the right price. Every Bravosi ship captain will transport their members for free. They seem to have a network of Bravosi people willing to give their trainees internships. Even though most Bravosi don't worship in the House of Black and White, they all know about it and have a healthy amount of respect/fear for its occupants. The Faceless Men might not have direct power to send a navy or fund a cause like the Sealord or the Iron Bank, but they have influence and based on real world history, there is no such thing as an influential religious institution that didn't develop a political agenda.
@@kirstenpaff8946 so, as far as every bravosi captain transporting for free, we have no guarantee for that. Arya set off from white harbour to bravos, while white harbour exports wood its suspicious given the timing they were there and would have made sense for the ship to actually be waiting for jaqen. If the house of black and white is a major seat, there would be no need to smuggle, just show your coin to the city guard. Beyond that the house of black and white is a hidden temple of death, it is not known, from what we see, as a house of assassins. It is a minor delapidated temple to the God of death in the centre of bravos.
Beyond that, the sealord of bravos chose the first sword because he could see through a glamour, not due to his sword skills, he told the sealord that he had a cat not a lion. Implying he could see through the glamour on the cat. Aka he could see through the glamour of the faceless men.
You would not have such a criteria if you worked closely with the house of black and white.
While I'm sure higher ups of the house are probably also higher ups of the government it's clear that they are a hidden society.
@@cop5144 And a super spy that can change personalities and his face wouldn't be able to fake another philosophical background? The bigger problem of Syrio and Jaqen being no one is probably the height difference. I don't know from memory but I believe their height might be different, which is a much harder thing to fake than personality and philosophical beliefs.
@@ingainloggningsnamn there is a ton of small things like stature, build and just plain old logic. There would be zero reason for it to be jaqen, it would make no consistent narrative sense.
However more importantly is the thematic context of the books. Syrio being Jaqen removes the contrast of aryas old life, and the hopeful path to be an adventuerer and explore the seas and her new path to an assassin after the death of her father. Syrio being jaqen would mean she was always on this path, but would also mean that jaqen was teaching her philosophy and lessons that directly contrast the faceless men. Syrio has a thematic purpose he served, making him jaqen makes neither logical narrative sense or thematic literary sense.
We can take this even further, what is the purpose of the story Syrio tells about being able to spot the sea lords kitten if it turns out he couldn't see through the faceless man's disguise and was killed. Why would jaqen tell this story that is literal advice to not trust glamours.
It's just a really fucking dumb idea.
That’s a very good point about Mirri and Qyburn being the two characters who highlight that they studied with Marwyn. What do you think this means for Dany?
Definitely seems to foreshadow a further corruption of her image, which is already maaaaad suffering in the west.
😢😮
I haven’t read the books in so long . How did Mirri study under Marwyn? I’m thinking about re reading them.
@@kellyrollins8308 I thought she traveled to Oldtown, but there's no source for that. We just know she studied with Marwyn when she was young, maybe Marwyn himself was at Essos, or maybe she traveled to Westeros. She studied a lot and liked to travel everywhere in the world. Mirri also studied at Asshai, at the Plains of the Jogos Nhai, and with the Dothraki. She liked gaining knowledge and learn about other cultures.
@@gooby214 Marwyn had studied in Asshai at one point, which is when Mirri met him.
To read "Blood and Fire" or the "Death of Dragons" book. Beyond that it is hard to say, but he seemingly wanted to get closer to Marwyn or the glass candle. If he is after the Candle, he is searching for someone or trying to visit someone in a dream. He seems very calm when Marwyn takes off at the drop of a hat, so my money is he wants the Candle for some reason.
If he’s looking for the candle, he could be trying to find Bran and Bloodraven to need their psychic domination over history.
My theory is that he is there for the book buried in the deepest vaults which describes how to kill dragons.
All dragons must die?
Yeah, but like why?
@@thelastbrickbender2139presumably they(faceless men) have some hand in doom of valyria and extermination of dragons from essos.
It's just odd that it gets brought up that the book exists at all. I forget who mentions it but they even specify it's locked in a vault that only an Archmaester can get into. And the presumption is that they had a hand on the fall of Valeria and view the dragons as that which goes against death. Remember that only death may pay for life according to Mirri Maz Dur, that's how Danys dragons hatched. So maybe the Manyfaced God just doesn't like that? Just thoughts.
@@brettloree6002 in an earlier draft of the prologue, Pate was actually supposed to steal a glass candle
Great vid as always Robert. Very much agree the Alchemist in Oldtown was Jaqen in disguise who in turn killed Pate and then assumed that identity ; the evidence & clues for all that in the vid back all that up very convincingly. Normally the FM imo do not have an overarching plan beyond bringing death and often paid massively huge amounts to do that in many cases. But with the magical reemergence in Westeros , their eyes and ears everywhere surely becoming aware of wights / resurrections and the like perverting the natural order of death, especially the Others would be the main concern in that respect. Which imo kicks them into action.
Oldtown having so much ancient knowledge , the Citadel & Hightowers in particular (Citadel not surprisingly founded and patronized by the Hightowers) leads the FM there for a fact-finding & knowledge mission ; Marwyn being there as well , a rogue archmaester with so much magical knowledge that he embraces and familiarity with dark arcana. For me the FM are figuring out the exact goings on , especially with those subverting death (the Others chief among those and would bring that en masse if they prevail), getting as much info around that and how to eliminate those entities doing so. Surely FM already aware or become aware the Others the main priority to be dealt with in that respect. In this case dragons likely the biggest weapon against such a threat and such the FM would seemingly be learning as much about and assisting that facilitation.
Jaqen is in old town to find GRRM and force him to finish the books
This is the way.
I have a different impression. Add Valar Dohaeris. People die to become wights, becoming shadows of their former selves and in a sense no one.
Wild speculation alert: What if Jaqen is in Old Town, hanging out with that particular group, to ultimately recruit Sarella, ANOTHER young girl, martially skilled and with a penchant for alternate identities?
Love it androgynous a fighter, sharp, good with deception and takes no bs. Beside är as drive being vengeance and sarellas being gaining knowlage they are very similar..... Well, and arya I amoung the 3 most powerful wargs/skinchangers, but with the other faceless men we already seen they settle for less and she proved to be very proficient without any help
Love it! I don' think so, but it's a fun theory.
a pure nonsense take
Why he killed Pate for the key?
I'm sure it's not that deep, but Jaqen is so intriguing to me and I love backstories- I want to know more about him, but if he's "just" an assassin from a death cult, I'll be ok with that too lol
He isnt even Jaq’en he is no one.
Are we reading the same series? "I'm sure it's not that deep." LMAO what?
I think he's there to either get information on or to steal a glass candle or to steal a copy of Septon Barth's book, Dragons, Wyrms and Wyverns: Their Unnatural History. It would make sense the leaders of Braavos, a city founded by slaves escaping Valyria, would be afraid and potentially want to stop a Valyrian Princess with three new dragons and thus turn to that amazing guild of assassins in their city, The Faceless Men. Although that probably wasn't his original reason for being in Westeros since it doesn't fit the time line.
This is such a nonsense take. The Braavosi leaders didn't do anything about the Targaryens all this time; they've been in Westeros for over 300 years, with dragons , etc, why didn't they go after Aegon and his two sisters? Makes no sense why they would be so anti-Dany.
so they just let one Valyrian family escape, with their dragons, and see no issue with that, as they then build a power base in Westeros?
@@pyropulseIXXI damn, who pissed in your cornflakes this morning? Tell me, how miserable of a person do you have to be to get so upset at such a harmless comment about a fantasy series?
Thank you for all the work you do on these 3 Fantasy Worlds . Listening to your calming voice also helps take my mind off my excruciating constant pain. Thanks man
He was there to get info for his mission - killing Bloodraven. That's why he was part of the caravan to the Night's watch. Killing Bloodraven is the ultimate move towards the goal of "all men must die" as he is the key to human survival. He probably chose to first learn as much as he can in the biggest library in Westeros, maybe after talking to some guards of the Night's watch who were taking him north and figuring out there isn't much info on Bloodraven or the children of the forest in library of Castle Black. Maybe he planned on going through the library of Winterfell on his way north, but learned it burned down. So Oldtown was the obvious choice, from there he can sail north.
"all men must serve" men can't serve if they don't ever live to begin with. ❌
And there would be nothing in any text that would suggest to him that Brandon Rivers is still alive hundreds of years later
@@PrinceIsot don't be obtuse. Bloodraven is alive is hardly a controversial statement
@@hircenedaelenthe point isn't that he's dead - we know he isn't - but there's no way the faceless men could know that.
@@cshairydude sorry, that wasn't clear
Your voice just transports me to any world your making videos about I love your channel so much!
It doesn't matter what I think. I may have my own ideas and theories before I watch these videos, but then I listen, and Robert speaks, and lays out so well and so clearly what he believes is going on, and at the end I am just left thinking ' wow, that is so right, yup, that's exactly what is happening' and I go away happy.
Bravo! Well thought out and presented.
Thanks for the video. I was waiting to see something about this topic.
Just love that he decon/recon is still going strong!
Ty IDG 😊❤🎉
Well done, Mark Fairclough. Those backgrounds are wonderful.
It seems to me that the White Walkers would be a natural enemy of the Faceless Men. He may have been heading to the wall in order to gauge the current state of affairs there. Later, he learns of Qyburns experiments and also wants to gauge the Citadel's knowledge of such things, possibly to destroy all such knowledge. It would seem that one of the aims of the Faceless Men is to eliminate everything associated with unnaturally prolonging life.
Thank you for this video! Because the story is still incomplete - I'm guessing that Martin will have to write at least 3000 more pages to bring the Song of Ice and Fire to a logical ending - it has been hard for me to draw conclusions, even rough guesses, about H'Ghar's reasons for killing Pate and infiltrating the Citadel. This video makes it much clearer to me.
Someone went into GRRM's earlier manuscript for AFFC and it turned out the Alchemist was trying to obtain a glass candle rather than a key, but it was awkward for Pate to smuggle out something so large & sharp.
We don't know of Jaqen having any target prior to meeting Arya, so one can't really compare how long he's willing to "hang around".
There's no indication that any of the novices at the Citadel were aware of the Others' return prior to Sam himself arriving.
Ding Ding Ding. Rumors of a class candle being used at old town are the only logical reason unless GRRM is going to introduce a completely new plotline 6 books in.
In deep geek really is ridiculous with how he tries to present his ideas as a certainty in ASOIAF without even having even mentioned the goddamn glass candle. Fucking embarrassing.
@@cop5144 Robert's a legend and sparks discussion, he's fallible like the rest of us, 'Fucking embarrassing' really?
I almost thought I had something to add, then you covered it. Seen many of your videos in the past few days and I think you have earned yourself a doctorate of Westerosi Studies at this point.
Excellent breakdown!
Masterful explanation and magnificent video
I didn't pick up on this during the read. THANK YOU!
Robert, you never cease to amaze me
I never made the connection that the Faceless Men might be against the Others.
I always thought they would be low-key on their side, but it makes sense as you described it, Robert.
Furthermore, given that there are hints, that Euron paid the Faceless Men with a Dragon Egg to murder his brother Balon I also thought that Jaqen is in Oldtown in an "alliance" with Euron. He gets the key and access to the key and is there to prepare Eurons arrival. Given that a Dragon Egg is priceless, it might have paid for more than just one assassination.
But given your reasoning, it might be he's actually at the Citadel for his/the faceless men's agenda. Maybe even in opposition to Euron.
Nice work dude thanks
Just for covering this topic I'll drop a comment and like before watching
There is also the theory that the Faceless Men are opposed to the dragons, and that they are looking for ways to kill them. After all, a popular theory also presented on this channel is that the Maesters teamed up with the FM to blow up Valyria, so maybe their goals haven't changed that much in over 400 years. In addition, it is clearly implied that Euron hired a FM to kill his brother, and that he might have paid them with the dragon egg he claims to have possessed. So if we believe that Euron is the harbinger if the Long Night, why would the FM support him? And if the dragon egg was used to pay them, does it serve a higher purpose or was it just a particularly precious and fancy reward?
My favorite take on their motivation, even if not the most likely is, that following all men must die, their goal is to end all the walking dead and people who cheated it. Not like Arya saved jaquen biter and no clue how the 3 guy is written... But like beric, stoneheart, dany, Davos, the hound, patchface. People. Who should have been dead, who died and then just woke again...
Their existance should unsettle the order of the world and to get rid of the waights you might need to end them too
Davos didn't cheat death, he was just lucky. And if the Hound is still alive, there's no reason to think he didn't just survive through raw toughness and will to live (alongside the non-supernatural kindness of the monks of the Quiet Isle).
@@SingingSealRiana you are just rambling; the only ones that have cheated death are Beric; 'ice wights' aren't even really conscious and it seems the Others are just warging corpses. Beric is a fire wight and has retained most of his consciousness, but even that slips away with ever 'resurrection.' It isn't a true resurrection, though, as Beric is still a corpse; his blood does not flow; he is animated via the power of Fire magic, and his soul is bounded to his corpse via shadowbinding
FM don't hate dragons lol, why would they hate animals that bring upon death? They (maybe) blew up Valyria because all men must die.
Of all the valuable books in the Citadel, the most infamous and well guarded is called "Death of Dragons". Marwyn says that the maesters were responsible for the end of Targaryen dragons, so maybe the maesters know some secret way to kill or weaken a dragon.
Considering the Faceless Man story with dragonlords, they surely would not be happy with rumors of a new dragon queen, but here is the catch: the Faceless Man are not opposed to dragons per se, they are opposed to slavery; or else they would have something against the Targaryens during the hundreds of years they ruled Westeros, but they didn't because there is no slavery in Westeros.
How does that connect to Jaqen? Well, Dany being a dragon queen certainly is concerning, but to this point all of her actions are about ending slavery not practice it... buuut who knows if she might change her mind later?Targaryens are known to be crazy after all.
I believe Jaqen was sent to the Citadel to read Death of Dragons as a backup plan against Daenerys, and the reason why he is still there after so long is simply to wait and see if he is needed.
Thanks👍🏼 for this.
wow this was a great video. it has been a long time since i read the books, and it was nice to have my memory refreshed about Sam and Aemon in oldtown. Yeah that is very interesting and I wasn't sure where the video was going but it is definitely a viable theory. At first I was going to guess he is there to assassinate Daenerys...but they could do that before and wouldn't need to wait. So yes, I am starting to think you are correct in that it isn't about assassinations, but rather something else.
Im sad to say i have given up on ever having any of these questions resolved because ive given up on ever seeing these books
I think he is having some fun, enjoying the chance to be educated at the citadel.
...I am soooo lost...
For me, the show and the bocks I've read just.. blend
Good jobb, keeping track of the all! 👍
Fascinating, I never even considered this stuff.
The last 2 books will have to be absolutely massive
It's nice to think The Faceless Men don't only kill people, they could also do other tasks as well
Wow great thoughts.
Gotta admit, a cult of death-worshipping assassins being the good guys trough opposing zombie-creating ice demons (because they "raise the dead") is a pretty neat subversion. I really want this one to be true!
Also, this has interesting implication for the relationship between the Faceless Men and Red Priests, who also raise the dead. Especially since Arya is now indoctrinated into the cult at the same time as Jon is getting resurrected...
It's an interesting thought indeed. I wonder if they'll seek to bring similar judgement to the Ironborn who also kind of have a religion of cheating death? 'What is dead may never die'. That said, most of them just kind of half-ass their 'drowning' ritual and don't actually die. Patchface though...
A radical theory. When Tyrion visits the Wall Lord Commander Mormon tells him that White Walkers have been seen. First Ranger Benjen must have told Ned and King Robert, plus Ned has had to execute several NW deserters and knows something is wrong beyond then Wall. So it's Ned Stark that hired the Jaqen, something to do with preparing for the White Walkers, and that's how Jaqen ended up in the Dungeons of Kings Landing. Also I think it says someone that the price of the Faceless men is a child, even more radical, Arya was the price Ned paid, and that's why Jaqen/Syrio was training Arya.
Faceless Man: I need a key to the Tower.
Paet the Apprentice: *doesn't realize that he is the key*
Knowledge, I agree. I think they want a book on how to warg/bond Arya to the D.egg Euron paid the FM with. It would also explain why so much leeway about Arya's "performance" ratings. Love your content!
can you imagine if we had an Oberyn chapter, when he was en route to King’s Landing, ruminating on-among other things-accumulating bling and dragonlore in Oldtown? a targ from female line?? (ie more targ than female-line-blackfyre faegon)
Can't wait for your final video in this series. :) What's interesting me is seeing the little cracks here and there in their cool, confident theological façade. They strive to be "faceless" but there are real people underneath the conceit, with egos and passions and emotions. They take risks and sometimes, perhaps, make mistakes. They appear more-than human, and conceive of themselves as such, but Martin makes sure to remind us that at the end of the day they are just people, albeit religious fanatics.
This is definitely something people seem to miss a lot. The faceless men are, despite their aura of mysticism, still men, and they are not "no-one" in truth.
Hi Robert; just as a heads up Witcher season 3 already aired some weeks ago... it would be lovely to watch your analysis. Cheers from Chile
WOW has a lot of questions to answer…hopefully we get it sooner than later…
I've always assumed almost the exact opposite of this theory. Valar Morghulis is a call and response, after all, and the response is Valar Dohaeris.
All men must die, and then All men must serve.
I think the Faceless Men might actually welcome the scenario where the dead after made to serve. Far from spitting in the face of their religion, the Others might well be the object of it.
The good news is George got a lot of work done during lockdown and he should have the manuscript for WoW by the end of July 2020.
I think 6 months isn't too long for faceless to stay hidden. If the target is Lord Hightower, it would be a tough job. Maybe the security in the tower is much tighter than expected.
Faceless men originated in Valyria, with it being hinted they led to its downfall. The reemergence of dragons is likely not a welcome sight to the faceless men. What do we know of his purpose of going to oldtown? To obtain a key to the whole citadel. Elsewhere, it is mentioned the citadel contains the only copy of a book called death of dragons. Marwyn also hints that the Maesters were the cause of the death of all the dragons the last time around. He is likely looking for a way to get rid of dragons again (beyond a mirror shield, that is). This may become troublesome for Dany, or useful if Euron (or WW) gain control of a dragon.
Hey Robert, love the video. Been having a hypothetical on my mind as of late that I’m sure will interest you, and would love to hear your thoughts regarding it. WHAT IF the Dance of Dragons never occurred, House Targaryen remained as one at FULL power and (from the show) the Dream passed down accurately through the generations. How do you believe they would have prepared the 7 kingdoms for the long night, what precautions/defenses do you believe The Mad King and 3 children would have made for its arrival? And do you believe “The Ice King” would still have attacked Westros with Targaryens at full strength against all of their dragons and a United 7 kingdoms? Would love to hear your thoughts on this.- A longtime supporter 🔥❤️
So, how will the Faceless Men perceive Roloar's fire wright? Will the look at John and Stoneheart as things to destroy? It would change the narrative if Jaqen takes out more of the Stark family just to appease a God and let the world burn in the process.
Its almost certainly not a fire wight. There is a reason why Beric has a hideout where the roots of weirwoods grow into the mountain side. Stoneheart, berric, and most probably Jon when he eventually does come back, are almost certainly the result of the children of the forest reanimating a recently dead corpse.
We know that the children of the forest posses the ability to warg (there are stories of children going into ravens to speak with men). We know that other Wargs (bran successfully, varamyr unsuccessfully) can possess humans.
Rather than a literal act of god, and a literal 'god of light' that can resurrect the dead (especially when GRRM is an ardent anti-theist and has previously written multiple stories featuring religious charlatans that take advantage of technology or other phenomenon), i'd imagine that the 'fire wights' are just another application of abilities we've already seen.
In this world there exists: telepathy, bloody magic, and dream sending for sure, everything that has occurred can be explained with these three aspects without bringing in any greater sense of divine magical beings. A thing which GRRM has repeatedly critised other books for. Thematically there would be zero reason for the ghost of high heart (implied to be a children of the forest or half children of the forest) to exist and the hill of high heart to be where the weirwood stumps are being she lived. And just so happens to be where berics band lives with the roots of the wierwoods still growing through the roof of the cave... and beric has a weirwood throne. Remember that Beric also states that he loses more and more of himself, his memories etc. each time he dies.
I'd imagine that similar to when Varamyr tries to warg into another human and gets pushed out, children can only warg into dead bodies. However if the body is fresh, and no decay has set in, the memories and personality of the original mind will still exist and slowly be pushed out. If the person was alive, then the mind would be strong enough that they couldn't take control.
TBH in deep geek is retarded when it comes to asoiaf, he only does the most skin deep readings and theories.
@@cop5144Nice theory, but it remains only a theory. Don't act so smug thinking you know the answers. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. It might be the children, or it might be the Lord of Light, or the Old Gods, or the Drowned God, or the Great Other, or the Faceless God playing all of them simultaneously. We literally don't know and cannot know until George releases the books and decides to share this information with us.
@@henriquecesardesouzasilva8766 except we have a writer who is an ardent socialist and atheist who blames the belief in divine wrote for many of the evils in this world and has written over 27 other works dealing with the same themes and ideas on display in asoiaf.
The difference is there is literally zero textual evidence and endless literary thematic evidence to discount the idea that gods exist in westerns. This isn't even counting the multiple interviews where GRRM professes his hate of organised religion and blind belief.
The difference with my 'theory' and that the lord of Light exists and is bringing back the hero with the destined blood line who was born to royalty is I have an argument that relies on both textual and thematic evidence. Not including his other works. The fire Wight theory has nothing, literally nothing other than the statements of an unreliable character who, in her only pov actively states that she has been a clarlatan using powders and glamours, and has only felt any true power at the wall.
You only dismiss because you prefer your narrative.
@cop5144 but yet here you are watching his new video? You typed all of that just to call him that particular r word? Chill
what is with this insane nonsense? Jaqen is not killing any Starks. R'hollor; Jon*
Geek!!
this is what the wait for Winds has done to us. We hold you accountable for this, George! GIMME WINDS NOW I WANNIT NOWWW
I have been debating in this in my head for over a decade, but never thought about the connection between the Others and the Faceless Men.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. Let’s hope that soon the books will be here to prove us either right or wrong. 🤞
I am going to reread that chapter, I can't remember whether or not Marwin PACKED that black candle!
GRRM has set up way too many plots going on at the same time to resolve in a single book series. Maybe that's why he's never going to finish the series.
Yup
Yeah, he's not even trying to finish it either. Winds was at least 25% or more already done bc it was cut from Dance. It's so depressing realizing he will never finish what he started decades ago. This was going to enter the classics, up there with LoTR... but no unfinished book series could ever enter the same level. And with the way the show ended, it really destroyed ASoIAF's, and George's legacy. He will not be remembered fondly.
This isn't too many plot lines at all; he just doesn't work; it is that simple. If he wrote ONE PAGE PER DAY, he could've already finished both _Winds_ and _Dream of Spring._
@@dustin628 Yep; Winds was already 25% done, and he didn't work on Winds for years; he now claims he is 75% done with Winds, which means he is only 66% of the way done in actuality, since the 25% was already done
@@dustin628well, the sagas and histories of Middle Earth were also never finished. Lots was collected from notes, edited and brought together by Christopher Tolkien, but never finished by JJR Tolkien himself.
The Faceless Men potentially needing to ally with a Targaryen - the last heirs of Valyria (which they're heavily implied to have helped destroy) is quite interesting.
Perhaps it goes the other way though - maybe they see the Others as an embodiment of the god of death. All *men* must die, but the Others aren't exactly men any more.
Re-listening to the books/ I think maybe Dawn is the sword in the prologue that the Other uses. Maybe they are trying to find its owner…!? Idk
It's also important to ask this: who else are Braavosi or have Braavosi blood that are in Westeros?
Other than Tycho Nestoris, we have Littlefinger whose great grandfather was from Braavos.(The titans head sigil). Clues from the books attributes him as one of the facelessmen: he knows his way with daggers, poison, "mask" metaphors on sansa and ned chapter/s. But even so, we can't conclude that he is a FM. He indeed have Braavosi blood, why would GRRM give him that backstory?
Ned hired Syrio to teach Arya but who recommended Syrio? It was Littlefinger who recommended Syrio as to LF hired the dwarves from Braavos -Penny and co. to mock Tyrion on the Purple Wedding.
Through this, LF may have been a FM(not confirmed) but we can say that his masterplan is in line with those of the FM and Jaqen(if he's not a rogue FM).
The bottomline is, LF didn't recommend to the small council meeting to hire the FM to kill Daenerys her being an anti-slavery), this was the time that Drogon and co. are not yet hatched. But from this, we can say that the FM are not anti-dragons or even anti-Valyrian. Daenerys even grew up on Braavos; but not confirmed until the red door mystery. I have a tinfoil theory that the FM warned the Targaryens about the doom thru Daenys the dreamer and the dagger was from the Belaerys(Baelish) family. Hence, Petyr Baelish was a hybrid of FM and Valyrian and the song of ice and fire was his; the dagger was in his possession to begin with.
I know that the eggs stolen by Elissa Farman are Drogon and co. It was Dreamfyre's eggs for sure because HotD Dreamfyre appearance looks like Drogon and co. The only missing link is the connection of Illyrio to Braavos and his acquisition on these eggs even though he said that it was from Asshai.
Which brings us to Jaqen in Oldtown. If he is not a rogue FM, I think his purpose is just to steal the books and may even destroy them just not to let the maesters got a hold on this books because we know throughout the asoiaf history that maesters hate magic and dragons; save for Marwyn.
This book might even include instructions to wake dragons from stone like dragon eggs from Winterfell (crpyts); or even tame wild dragons if the Cannibal(it's descendants) or Sheepstealer are still alive kicking. It's just obvious now that the FM hate the slavers than the dragons.
11:42 Excellent concept youve touched on here. As Jaquen tells Arya several times; "The gods are not mocked" -Arya, ACoK.
As such, Jaquen is at the Citadel to prevent the Others from mocking the gods. He goes way out of his way showing how seriously he takes his faith. Even helping Arya kill a ton of guys at Harrenhal.
Thomas not paying attention. The M character attacked the meditating Jedi while the O character was in custody on not-Hoth. They are not a singular entity.
I have completeley forgotten the plot of the last books, also the part of the intrigues around rickon, no idea what that was about, only that it was still a loose end..
Thank you for the wonderful video. Your graphics are almost as stunning as your theories or your voice. A perfect package!
I'm not so sure the Faceless Men would be opposed to the Others. They may be working for the same entity (Death). But this theory does make sense
Great theory about the dead being brought back and why the faceless men would want to stop that!
Yeay🎉
"Dany's prophetic role is to defeat the Others, or something..."
Tourmaline Brotherhood. Although the Faceless Men always seemed more aligned with the Spicers/Warlocks, IMHO
On an opposing point of view maybe the "all men must die" could be something like the words of a Doosmday cult. They see death as a gift for the god of death and seing how Jaquen react to Arya saving the bandits in their cage, he seems to think that Arya disturbed what should have happen.
In this interpretation, Jaqen and faceless men could be trying to be sure that the world is not saved and that effectively, all men will die.
George RR Martin was out supporting the writer’s strike. He has been on strike for over a decade so he was wondering what took them so long.
I think the video overlooks another potential answer: the Faceless Men have their origins in Valyria, seem to have been opposed to Valyria, and now Jaqen has credible intelligence that a Valyrian restoration is in the works. Sure, maybe he wants to side with Dany to see the Others defeated. But Jaqen is an unorthodox Faceless Man. He could just as easily see the Others as a means of ensuring "Valar Morgholis": that ALL mankind should die, permanently and forever. And wonder of wonders, Marwyn is trying to bring Dany back to Westeros... closer to Jaqen's blade.
But if Dany is his target, wouldn't it have been much easier for Jaqen to just hop on a ship to Mereen himself months ago? Conceivably he might think it's easier to wait in Westeros for Dany to arrive rather than go to her and risk them missing each other in transit, but then he's staying in arguably the farthest place in Westeros from the likeliest places for Dany to go.
Plus, how the Faceless Men might view Dany is much more complex than that. Yes she's Valyrian and has dragons, but she's also the Breaker of Chains, so she represents both the thing the Faceless Men stand for and what they stand against simultaneously. And if they also determine that her dragons are the only way to stop this existential threat to their central concept of death, I think they're much more likely to work with her than against her.
@@Wolfeson28 My guess is that he wants to stick close to the Glass Candle. For an assassin whose job is just as much about finding his target as eliminating them, the Candle is absolutely critical.
Yeah I’m sorry the theory has just never made sense to me, they already destroyed Valyria and after that they never seemed to care to finish the job by killing the Targaryens, especially in the time before the conquest when that would’ve been relatively easy, besides Dany is actively using her dragons to end slavery, the faceless men aren’t anti dragon, they’re opposed to slavery, dragons are merely a tool, one that is currently being used to accomplish their goal, there’s simply no reason for them to want to kill the dragons
The Faceless Men are more likely to be pro-others and opposed to R’hillor and Dany. Wights are still dead, but R’hillor fire magic actually brings people back to life (Beric).
Let's not forget that the Faceless men are theorized to have taken down the Valyrian sorcerers that kept the 14 flames abay. Braavos is the enemy of Valyrians and the Faceless Men were central in that conflict. We'd be mistaken to assume that Jaqen is on the same side as other protagonists in the books, like Dany.
One problem with this is that the Faceless are only supposed to kill people they are hired to kill, Arya specifically being punished for taking a live that wasnt her's to take. I'm assuming nobody paid them to kill Pate and every other assassination seems to be executed without any extra casualties. Not that this disproves anything, the text clearly identifies the Alchemist as a Faceless Man - but it does seem like a bit of an inconsistency.
The faceless men are such an oddity because their magic is so diffferent. All the other magics are all about prophecy, and resurrection/zombification, and animal-bonds and sacrifice. And fire, and blood of course. It could be that the faces are made through some kind of blood sacrifice, or that they're a gem-anchored glamor, but it doesn't feel like they're described that way at all. So I'm boggled at how it ties into the rest.
We suspect pretty strongly that Euron has been in contact with the faceless men, and though the assassination of a king is awfully expensive, there could have been more price paid. If Euron did indeed trade dragon eggs to the Faceless men, it's not unreasonable to think that this price is MORE than is required to kill a king, and there's more that Euron wants them to do or learn: Dragonbinder, The Horn of Winter, something related to one of Euron's prophetic dreams, etc. There's also the possibility that the Faceless men are now trying to learn the secret to hatching the eggs they've obtained from Euron, in order to realize the full value of that payment. If they're fundamentally against The Others because of their necromancy, they likely also are opposed to the Lord of Light's religion, which seems like it's reviving the dead in some cases. If Marwen studied in Asshai, it's entirely possible he knows something about that resurrection lore, and how to stop it.
not gonna lie. Robert said prophetic roll and I heard Profiteroles. now i want some. Also... when in doubt blame blood raven.
Would be interesting if his target is Euron.
Euron is half way across the sea trying to steal danys dragons with a ship full of sheep and a 'magical' horn. That does not work.
@@cop5144 No he isn't; that is Victarion. Euron is on his way to Oldtown and raiding along the coasts of the Reach
@@pyropulseIXXI You're right in a way, im misremembering. However at the end of AFFC samwells chapter shows he is already at the arbor, however Eurons chapter shows they are missing some 850 ships.
It makes no sense that these are lying in ambush, first you can't really have ships in ambush, second he has sent the iron fleet (all their warships) with Victarion, there is no way for his fleet to defeat the enemy that not only outnumbers, but out classes them. It doesn't matter if they are baited into the straight and then Euron somehow comes in after... we are talking longships vs warships.
Imo the more realistic alternative is that he has gone east, and is taking the fleet to ensure the real goal of dragons while the westerosi fleet counters a feint in the arbor. Think about it, even if he did win the Arbor battle, he would suffer enough losses that his fleet is now a non-entity in the books.
IF he captures a dragon however (because we all know he wont marry dany), he continues to be a significant threat. I fully believe that he has went east following Victarion and that the arbor is a feint.
Babe wake up, new In Deep Geek video just dropped
Eh, I always took the perspective that Faceless Men would be in league with White Walkers since they're both servants of the death god. Then again, who knows because its been a dozen (literally) years since the last book published.
How can I summon him...?I really need him
I D G !!!!!
@BocoCorwinI don't giveafuck
@BocoCorwin In Deep Geek…..
Jaqen could have atleast let him have Rosy for once before offing him.
Do you think this is a set up for Arya killing killing the Night King? Or at least killing white walkers since the books don't have a night king yet?
I hate that I can't form my own opinion as ugh !.... I can't recall any of this since its been 10 years or so since I read feast of crows
I do love your work.
If we take your idea: the Faceless men consider the others as a heresy or even a blaspheme, because they raise the dead. What do they think of the Ironborn: "What is dead may never die, ..." and their practice of ritual drowning? Is the Drowned God just another face?
I don’t think he ‘got it to work’ regarding the glass candle. I believe that it/they lit up when Dany hatched her dragons.
Not sure it's because the Faceless Men are against the Others. I suspect it's something more like the Dragons that they're after, and the book about them.
But assuming that the Faceless Men ARE there because of the Others....
1. Jaqen leaves Arya at Harrenhall.
2. He goes up to Pyke and kills Balon in return for a dragon egg from Euron.
3. Euron takes advantage of the power vacuum and takes control of the Ironborn. He leads them to Oldtown.
4. Euron confronts Sam there, and takes the Horn of Winter from him. He then blows it and collapses the Wall.
5. The Others and their wight minions charge into Westeros through the destroyed Wall.
6. Jaqen: "Gee, is my face red or what...."
I get that this is ideologically well grounded in the origins of the Faceless Men, but it just doesn't work for me that our Faceless Man is a master assassin, but he can hang out with Arya and go hunt ancient books in Oldtown. It feels like Jaqen is whatever the plot needs him to be, not a guy with a kill list and bosses who need to show results to keep up their organization's reputation.
He might be high enough up in the hierarchy to not be working on trivial contracts. Maybe he's earned more autonomy.
I think you're thinking about the faceless men in the wrong way. They're more like a monastic brotherhood than an assassin business. Sure, they use assassination contracts to fund themselves, but they don't seem to concerned with PR in general (otherwise why not have more temples than just the one, or "priests"/agents roaming the world to "spread the word"/solicit contracts?) nor do they really seem to have a strict hierarchy of "bosses and subordinates" beyond that between novices and full/more senior members. If you consider them more as a cult or guild, and one run collectively by all the members of the order (with perhaps some deference given to the more senior/experienced members) then things make a lot more sense.
As for "Jaquen," we don't know his reasoning but his actions are hardly inconsistent with what we know about the faceless men. He's presumably at least a somewhat senior member of the faceless men, so I think it's safe to assume that he's on board with their beliefs and has some freedom of action (however their leadership works I think it's reasonable to assume based on what we know that a full member or the order would be allowed to do more or less whatever they think is best as long as it doesn't violate their beliefs or completely disgrace them). He goes on a mission/contract which requires posing as a prisoner on the way to The Wall. I think it's a pretty good guess that he's meant to kill Ned Stark, except that happens without his help so he's now free to do as he wishes.
Normally he'd probably want to escape and leave Westeros, but given that he's one of the "high security" prisoners that may take some time to do. And en route he also probably hears about these "white walkers" from the leader of their convoy (whose name I forget), and as argued in the video, a religion which holds that "all men must die" is probably not going to be a fan of zombies. So maybe he decides not to escape even if he could, to see what he can find out about them at The Wall. Arya is something of a temporary diversion; a few weeks isn't going to make any major difference now that he's not on a contract to kill anyone, and she does seem to be an ideal recruit for them so that'd certainly be worth spending a bit of time to arrange.
After that, he has the option of continuing north to The Wall, or going back south to Oldtown to look for information. The Wall is still pretty far away, and there's no guarantee of finding anything there. Meanwhile if anyone knows what there is to know it'll probably be the Maesters, and getting to Oldtown is a fair bit easier than crossing all of the North alone (plus it'll be easier to leave there when he's done). And we don't know who he's spoken to while at Harrenhall, or if he's sent or received messages from any other Faceless Men; it's entirely possible there's more specific reasons for him to go to the Citadel rather than The Wall that we don't know yet.
wtf are you talking about? He is obviously on a larger mission, intel gathering, etc. They have others that do just assassinations. I honestly don't get how you even think such nonsense
I'd ask what allowed him to kill Pate, if there was no contract on him, then this is something serious enough to make him break a core tennant like that
I have the feeling that the "no killing unless it's a contract" is more of a guideline than an actual rule. Presumably killing (so long as it is done quietly) is okay if it serves the greater mission.
Something I still don't get, if Jaqen was going to take Pate's identity anyway, why did he get him to steal the key for him first?
Well done making the religious connection of how the faceless men would see the whitewalkers as heretical.
Jaqen could be there waiting for Euron. Since Euron is on his way there and has worked with the Faceless Men before, maybe Jaqen is there to assist in the capture and destruction of Oldtown. Maybe Euron paid him to await his arrival and a master key would give Euron access to things the maesters wouldn't want him to have.
"Why was Jaqen in Oldtown?"
I have no idea but I do know this, whatever he was there for he was going about it in the most ridiculously difficult way he could possibly choose.
🤔 If Jaqen is learning about the Starks as Kings of Winter, this might be a reason why they let Arya go. If she's returning home and joining the fight against the others, she'd be serving the many faced god in an other way than the faceless men, but her actions would still be in line with their goals.
The Faceless Men presumably hate the Targaryens too, right (if they caused the Doom)? Could he be on the way to kill Dany?
Also, they’d be fundamentally opposed to the Lord of light as well, so they’d be opposed to both sides (in whole or in part) of the war to come. They should play a pretty interesting role going forward!