Greetings from SE Kentucky. Your Dad was a hero and was indeed the 30th victim. I hate that he had such a hard life buy I'm sure thanks to you and your fine family made sure that he had some moments of joy in between. Which is what life is all about. Thank you for the fascinating interview that you did. Could listen to y'all talk all day.
I would love to hear what he thought of the sinking of the Morrell and other famous ships that have gone down. I'm sure he has alot of knowledge on those subjects. Maybe he can have himself and a panel of survivors on a video discussing their individual experiences.
The body they found was most likely the watchman. He always had work coveralls on in every known photo of him. He is seen with work cover alls laying near the Fitz with a hastily dawned cork life jacket on. He would have been in the pilot house that fateful night and so when the bow went under, they had a few seconds to put the Fitz in the stop position and the watchman threw on a life jacket but was dragged down to the bottom at depths where water pressure negates the buoyancy of such life vests. Not trying to be morbid here, but Stonehouse and others I have read or watched propose this theory that the body was already there from a previous sinking or disaster and the Fitz just happened to lay next to the this older corpse. Ridiculous. I really think this was an attempt at damage control but the geenie was already let out of the bottle. Shannon let that kid and his father go down, they reported the body, he said he was going to publish photos of the body. That traumatized the surviving family and so someone in our parasitic Michigan legislature along with the wimps in the Canadian government took action that effectively killed any further expeditions to the wreck. Trying to claim it was a body from a previous wreck did not prevent this. Stonehouse is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, in my opinion. So the discovery of the body and the conditions are indeed very relevant in that is all we have left to act on to solve the mystery as best we can based on the facts. For whatever reason, the Fitz reported a list not long after passing 6 fathom shoal. The waves had not reached significant height at that point to tear any hatch covers off the cargo holds, so scratch hatch covers not being properly fastened off the causes of the list. It had either scaped bottom earlier at Caribou Island or stress fractures. small at first, let water in from an all weather captain "can't make no money sitting at anchor" who 'beat the shit out of the Fitz' and the crew was supposedly getting afraid to sail on her, who was welded together in nearby River Rogue MI where defective welds were passed off by 2 separate men who were not in contact with each other who couldn't wait to relieve the guilt they felt by telling this to my father. I married the daughter of one of them, the other came up randomly. So you have a rotten keel with bad welds and a poor fitting skin that by many accounts was not seaworthy at the beginning of 1975, not only fully loaded by overloaded by 3 feet, broken and shoddy repair jobs and broken welds needing a 'rest', going out into the perfect storm over Lake Superior, a small ocean in and of itself. The stage was set for disaster the second all weather McSorley tried to beat that storm that fateful november day. So for whatever reason, the Fitz started to take in water faster than her massive pumps could make any progress. This proves the hull was compromised. McSorley knew she was sinking at that point and slowed down for the Anderson to catch up. Whether McSorley should have went full speed ahead towards the sanctity of Whitefish Bay or ran her aground the Canadian shoreline I will leave to those who are the captains of vessels. So moving forward at half speed, McSorley's last words were 'we are holding our own'. I would have admitted defeat and surrendered by ramming the Fitz on the Canadian shoreline, but then again, i am was never a captain, Given the competence of some I worked under, maybe i should have been, but.....So sheis taking on water, overloaded by 3 feet, and is being ripped apart from the power of 30-50 foot waves, Right around the time Cooper claims those 2 massive 50 foot waves rocked the Anderson in succession (the waves may have been as high as 80 feet) they catch up to a water logged bow heavy ship and drive her under, Sudden and catasrophic, an open pilot house door, the ship in the stop position, and the failed escape attempt and no ditress call and the layer of taconite pellets all over the top of the bow section prove that the bow sank either detached or hanging bythreads to the stern, the wreckage and debris field suggest the Fitz broke apart like a green stick fracture right at where the elbow or joint hinge of the ship was, where the stress fractures would have lined up and caused the ship to break into the 3 sections she has since rested in. The bow section, which from the visible, extensive damage, suggests plunging at steep angle, the 'missing section' which is a debris field in the middle where the ship was ripped apart right at the elbow or flexing point of the ship, then the capsized stern which would have been twisted in such a fashion in a greenstick like fracture or break up.
Wow...another one packed with information. Again, I'm going to have to read this a few times to get it all. Thanks for sharing your thoughts here...greatly appreciated. HMM
Covers everything. One point most overlook is thyat McSorely reported a fence down. That's a heavy steel cable going nearly from end to end on either side. The only way you can lose a fence is if it pulls loose from an end, which is darn near impossible; if something hits it and stretches it beyond it's breaking point, which in the middle of the lake there's nothing to do that, or if the ship hogs, bending upward in the middle stretching the cable to it's breaking point. Just as what would happen if it shoaled in the middle which is where she finally broke apart. And that broken fence was reported after passing Caribou shoals. No other explanation of the broken fence comes close to matching what we know for fact. McSorley was also known for regularly running tight to that shoal with some hearsay reports from long before the wreck that crewmen had more than once heard and felt mild shoaling there. So to me anyway, the chain of events leading to her loss began when she shoaled. The taking on of water causing the list could have been hull damage, the loss of 2 vents also reported, or both. If indeed she shoaled McSorely would not have spoken of it, for that would have cost him his job for risking her on a known hazard. Likely he knew it but believed they were OK to continue on and in port he could have claimed to been blown off course if it were discovered. Another interesting point is that the #1 hatch was discovered pushed into the hold intact, with the coaming it was attached to bent inward. That would take a huge amount of force to accomplish. It is believed that with everything else buttoned up tight, almost no amount of water washing over a hatch could do this because air pressure inside the hold would be resisting that, yet if the hull were broken then air pressure could not build to resist that, which also signals she at least partially broke up on the surface- maybe completely- when too much water built up on the hatch instantly flooding the holds the moment she began to go under. Two more interesting points are that the pump intakes were linked and arranged port and starboard, so with a list one side would be above any water in the hold and the other side could not draw until the high side met water. This would have allowed a large amount of water to build before the pumps would have been effective, and even then they couldn't get it all with her listing. There's also the cargo. Taconite is basically iron ore compressed into pellet form with moisture and pressure to allow easier loading/unloading, then it is baked dry to remove the moisture and lighten it. If Taconite gets wet it absorbs moisture which will not dry out in a ship's hold. So with the list and water in the hold, the Taconite on that side would have become heavier and stayed that way. McSorley knew these things, and would have almost certainly been pumping water into the ballast tube on the opposite side to correct the list as much as he could to make the pumps more effective.That added weight would have made her ride lower, exposing her to the waves more, while also increasing the load and stress on the hull which he didn't know had been critically weakened by the shoaling. Any other Captain in his shoes would have done exactly this. Same as with most disasters there's not one single event but a chain of them which brings about the end results. Adding all this to her poor condition and the heavy seas made the end result almost inevitable and well beyond foreseeing and preventing. The only change which might have saved her was if she hadn't shoaled yet that can't be said for certain if her hull was already weak there, which it probably was. Or McSorley could have returned to port when the storm began building beyond the forecasted strength, or had never left port at all which many other Captains chose to do that day. It was normalized deviance for McSorley; he'd always gotten away with tempting fate before so he thought he'd be OK doing it again- only he was wrong this time. RIP to them all.
As a retired captain and based on everything I know about this disaster I don't see how attempting to alter course and run the ship aground makes any sense at all. While McSorely did know he was taking on water he was still making way toward safe harbor and there was no indication that a catastrophic breakup or nosedive was imminent. Once past Caribou Island where the possible bottom strike took place the safety of Whitefish Bay was nearly as close as any possible grounding point anyway so thats absolutely where you try to go. There is no other option.
I was very impressed with your guest Mr Darrell Walton, obviously a warm, open and very genuine man. Thank you and compliments on your work and dedication!
Last night (Thursday Nov. 10 - 2022) My wife and I attended the 47th anniversary solemn ceremony of the disappearance and sinking of The Edmond Fitzgerald, at The Dossin Great Lakes Museum on Detroit's Belle Isle. It was attended by many people involved with Great Lakes Mariners in both the USA & Canada. There was a flotilla of boat's on both sides of the Detroit River, including Fire Department fire fighting vessel's from both Detroit & Windsor Canada spraying water into the air. A wreath of 29 red roses for each of the 29 lost crew members, plus one white rose to represent ALL the Mariners who lost their lives throughout the history of sailing The Great Lakes in America and Canada. Bag Pipers played before and during the 7:10pm laying of the wreath in the middle of the Detroit River. Musican Lee Murdock sang many Great Lakes Folk songs during the presentation which started at 6pm, in front of an anchor that the Fitzgerald lost while traveling through the Detroit River before it sank. Guitar and singer Lee Murdock sang the song that Gorden Lightfoot made famous about the wreck of The Edmond Fitzgerald. It truly was a moving night, just a few miles East of The Mariners Church where the first and continuous Church services are held every November in honor of the crew of the Edmond Fitzgerald. Glad that we attended last night.
Wow! Thanks for sharing this. I'm so jealous...so wish I would have attended this meaningful ceremony. Do you know if any of the Fitz's family members were in attendance? I never knew about this ceremony. If they have it every year, I'm definitely going next year. Thanks for watching, Rick! HMM
I remember going to college, Dad drove he was teaching me how to drive, and The Edmund Fitzgerald song cane on...I said I know this ship, what happened to her? And my Dad said, they don't know, but they think it might have been a freak wave. At the time, rogue waves, were something you experienced but you never really talked about them...until the first one, the Draupner Wave, was recorded in the North Atlantic. My Dad was a Sailor, he never talked about what he did, but when we were talking about the Fitzgerald, he did tell me one of his experiences, they were in rough seas, the hatches were all sealed, and he was lying in his bunk. The ship was forging through the waves, and then there's this one wave, she started driving into it. Said he was in his bunk, could feel the engines driving the ship down,, all the while saying come up ship, come up ship...then all of a sudden she popped up. My brother said it best, The Great Lakes, aren't lakes, they're inland seas, and he's not wrong, Chesapeake Bay is another one, and you need to be experienced, before sailing her especially in summer when the thunderstorms hit in the afternoon. Condolences to the families of this ship, Sailors were just doing their jobs, wanting to complete a task, get home, and tragedy struck, it's hard and something you never get over. Lived near the water my whole life and the water can be calm, soothing, and serenely unforgiving all in a day.
Wow...that's an awesome memory you share with your dad...learning about the Fitz. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and stories here...and thanks for remembering the Mighty Fitz and her crew. HMM
I can tell you exactly why you can't dive on the Fitz. It has entirely to do with the insurance company not wanting new evidence being brought to light in order to be used in a claim by the families.
@@vincemcmain663it was owned by Liberty Mutual Life Insurance, that’s correct. But anyone or any company could get involved in the shipping industry so long as they have the coin to invest in it. It was a booming industry back then, and it was an investment. Who it was owned by was pure coincidence.
7 місяців тому+6
Wrong..... Yes, diving on the Edmund Fitzgerald wreck is illegal without the Canadian government's approval. The Canadian government passed a law in 2006 that makes it illegal to dive on the Edmund Fitzgerald and two other ships in Lake Superior, and that anyone who violates the law faces a $1 million fine. The Canadian government officially recognizes the wreck as a gravesite and has declared it off-limits for further diving and exploration
What's the difference between the Fitz, and say the Kamloops? There are bodies in the Kamloops, and you can even go into the engine room, and take a picture of "Whitey", a dead body that is in the engine room. You can dive them wrecks, but the Fitz is somehow different? Also, even if you consider the Fitz a gravesite.... Does the Canadian government tell people they can't go to a cemetery? If they don't mess with the ship, I see no reason that they can't dive it.
Growing up in Michigan, I remember that day. As a family we cried. I had to go to Whitefish Bay as an adult. It is a beautiful place. You can't help but feel solemn when you are there. God bless the families who were left with the memories of their loved ones.
For over 60 years I've lived very close to Lake Michigan. As a kid our parents used to take the family to Stearns Park in Ludington which is the Lake Michigan beach. There are two breakwalls and light houses. During winter storms we would watch unimaginable waves plummet the light house as the winter blizzard hammered everything in sight. To this day I get in my jeep and dtrive to Stearns Park and watch thunder and snow storms roll in. What a change from the calm days of spring and summer! This tradegy to this day still touches my soul. May God grant peaceful rest to the men who lost their lives and to the surviving family members of the Edmund Fitzgerald.
Thanks for sharing your story here, Steven. It'd be neat to sit at Stearns Park and watch the weather come ashore. Thanks for remembering the Mighty Fitz and her crew. HMM
Excellent video and that was truly an honor to hand over a prized piece of the Fitz lifeboat rope. And as I drive a lot fixing machines around the country I’ll listen to Gordon Lightfoots the wreck of the Edmond Fitzgerald. And my heart always goes out to the poor men who knew their fate and to the families who knew it also. I live 500 feet from the Atlantic Ocean in north long branch NJ. I walk a lot up in Sandy hook national rec area. I’ve seen the power of water. The awesome power. And I’ve heard it said in previous videos the lake doesn’t have the rolling waves. And that makes for a whole new dynamic I don’t know. It’s hard to seperate as a ship captn the need to keep sailing as no sailing no money and the balance of the unimaginable responsibility of the crew. We are all Always just human. Even airline pilots don’t want to die in a plane crash. Yet one miscalculation or misjudgment can put them as the capt in the wheelhouse left with the last thoughts they will ever have. Here’s to the men of the mighty Fitz and to all the brave sailors who learn the language of the sea.
Super interesting thoughts Ronald; thanks for sharing them here. This is, in part, why I do these videos...to hear all this great feedback and reflection I receive. Thanks for taking the time to watch. Stop by anytime...HMM
Amazing. In 1977, My maternal grandfather, Richard Francis Caruzzi, had a sailing ketch “Left-Handed Yeoman” which was bound from from Lake Erie, out the Saint Lawrence Seaway, down the east coast to Florida. A November gale sank the Yeoman, and killed my grandfather. A rogue wave rolled her over while he was below checking on the diesel. His wife and stepdaughter were on deck, wearing life jackets, and were swept overboard and survived. They said it was so bad the Coast Guard wouldn’t even go out. My grandfather’s body washed ashore the next day. RIP RFC 1912-1977.
@@HistoryMysteryMan Thank you. I’ve sailed now for many years, always think of him. I was 10 years old when it happened. My only way of understanding is that I think he was a pretty green skipper, and didn’t have the experience in Lake Erie and knowledge of his boat, local conditions, and his own capabilities to make the right weather decision and stay in port that day. Mother Nature is always in charge.
My grandfather sailed on the lakes for 50+ years. Last ship was the Clifford F. Hood. He became President of the International Shipmasters lodge in Cleveland Ohio. When the E Fitzgerald went down I knew Grandpa (Norbert Fahey) knew all those men and weeks of grief he endured. Bless all those lost Souls.
New subscriber. I've got alot of videos on the Fitz. A old lumber felling saw painted with a beautiful scene of the Great ship on that night hangs above my front doors. Nov.10/1970 is my birthday so I always have been connected, just in my mind. Capt Bernie tells what he thought happened to deal the death blow to the mighty Fitzgerald and after 1,000's of hours of research I agree. The fact his fench rail was down on the port side is the smoking gun. That happened just when they were passing the shoals, and means there's a bad Crack making her twist wicked bad. Then the lack of the other three bulkheads caused the pellets to plug the pump screens up everytime see rolled. So pumps were only doing half of what they could have been doing at best. The Fitzgerald has been a part of my life since childhood. As a family we went to the locks several times watching the freighters come and go. I feel in love with the big ships picnicking there along side the locks in the 70's. Thank you for bringing attention to this preventable tragedy caused by its times. God bless all those good men who lost their lives that November Night when the Witch was raising Hell.
My fathers cousin Bob Rafferty was on the Fitz. I remember clearly the phone call he received when she was lost. My dad waited up all night in hope Bob would be saved. Thank you for your work and effort to remember those souls lost on the mighty Fitz. Bless all the families of those lost.
Thanks Kathleen...so appreciated. I think Mr. Rafferty lived in Toledo if I'm not mistaken. I'd love to find some of his family members and talk with them, is you can help. Thanks for remembering the Mighty Fitz and her crew...HMM
@@HistoryMysteryMan his daughter has given interviews in the past. - Pam Johnson was 23 years old and pregnant with her fourth child when she picked up a newspaper that Tuesday in 1975 and learned her father had died. She is easy to find.
Yeah Brother, I also heard from a guy at the 30th anniversary memorial, he thinks that the reason the stern went upside down is that when it broke up the torque of that huge propeller spun the stern so it flipped over.
I'm not a big fan of theory that the stern flipped from the rotation of the prop. I think she broke when the bow hit the bottom leaving the stern to float standing on end for a few short moments (because it's still buoyant) to then sink landing upside down.
When the Captain told his buddy on the Anderson that his handrail lines had snapped, they both knew something had flexed beyond anything they could control.
I worked by the Maritime Cathedral in Detroit and would listen to the bells toll for the Edmund Fitzgerald. Much respect to those merchant Mariners that rest with her!
I went up to Whitefish Point for a memorial service on 11/10/2019. While headed to the museum that night, I ran into a few white-out conditions - how fitting. It was an honor to sit amongst the still grieving family members of the crew. It was so very moving to see/hear a loved one of each of the departed ring the actual bell, as their name was called. I shall never forget it!
So cool to hear your stories. Is that service done on the day (Nov. 10) every year? I would like to attend next year. Thanks for your support, Wendell. HMM
I get the feeling that Darrell really appreciates you for taking such an interest in not only the Fitz......but more importantly the lives of those lost. Darrell would be one hell of a guy to have a beer with......he must know an awful lot about this topic. Pretty cool that he gave you that piece from the life boat!
Thank you for posting. I remember very well the song from the mid 70's. Being from CT I've always had an interest in maritime history. Fascinating to learn about shipping on the Great Lakes and the story behind this iconic song.
I spent 9 months on the USNS Maury back in the late 1989 and she was an oceanographic survey ship. We were surveying the west pacific and in January of 1990 we encountered a massive storm while surveying around the Aleutian Islands. The Maury (Now T.S Golden Bear) is 499 feet in length and we had 45 foot plus seas and when we were on the back side of the waves the oncoming wave would go over the wheelhouse and land midship. I used my survival suit as a pillow and would listen to the turbochargers on the mains load and unload to determine how big the waves were. Thank you for the great videos.
My girlfriend has lived in Northern Wisconsin her whole life. A number of the crew were from her rural community. Some of them were her classmates in high school. Her father worked on those ore boats as well. Lake Superior is a VERY treacherous lake. Her dad would tell her of waves up to fifty feet sometimes when he was sailing. When the wind starts to blow you want to get off that lake pronto!
When the Fitz went down I was working in a Chrysler factory and my fellow employee had a cousin on the Fitz when it sank. I remember the family sorrow when his body was not found. Thank you for this memory.
At the age of 23 as a native of Upper Michigan while living near Mcfarland I received a call from the Union in Marquette offering me a position as a wiper on the Edmund Fitzgerald in Oct. of 1975. It would have been my 1st job as a merchant marine and my last if I had accepted it. I stopped by the docks in Marquette and looked at the ship and decided that I would rather go to Colorado and moved to Leadville CO the highest city in the nation at over 10,151 ft above sea level. So there I was when the sinking happened in Nov. high and dry instead of at the bottom of the lake off of Whitefish Point where I had fished a few times in my teens. I feel sorry for the crew that I never got to know, but have read there names listed in a video about the wreck and know that I am very lucky that I was not one of them.
Wow...incredible story. This is, in part, why I do this stuff...to hear these great stories that come back to me. Thanks for sharing this one here. Thanks for watching...HMM
I began my 42 year maritime career two years after the Fitz went down. I've collected a lot of nautical antiques and souvenirs over the years but if somebody gave me the smallest peice of anything from the Edmund Fitzgerald it would be cherished more than everything else I have combined. You're a lucky man.
Grew up in Windsor in grade school would skip school to watch the lake freighters pushing through the straight, saw EDMUND FITZGERALD rollin through god bless the souls!
Thank U both Captain Don and Captain Darrel, 4 putting new "Insite" out on this most "Famous" Great Lakes shipwreck. May the lost crew and their families, never B forgotten. Amen
I would like to thank you. I watched your first video, and learned so much that wasn't told before. This, this is heart wrenching. I do believe she went straight down, her bow pushed under. Perhaps the door was open because they realized she wasn't coming up, and was trying to reach the surface? This was moving, as was your last one. I don't know how many times I've wiped my eyes, but you bring the compassion, the heart, and the human aspect of this tragedy, not just the facts. You can feel your heart in your videos. Magnificent. Thank you for sharing with us. 😥
I don’t know how I stumbled on this … my Dad sailed the freighter for Bethlehem Steel . He spent numerous seasons on the Arther B. Homer ( the sister ship). I heard numerous ship names … like the Bethlehem ship “Steelton” … and the “Mather”. My Dad was a shopkeeper for the Mater one winter in Buffalo. I have 4 original ship lanterns from the “ Mather” . I have been on these freighters as a kid when they would come into the Bethlehem Lackawanna Plant to unload taconite from Duluth. I saw the big sheets of paint in the tunnel that goes bow to stern that would peel off the Arther B Homer. My Dad said it was from the torque of the ship. Never understood that then but do now. These sheets of paint were huge ( size of blankets). To say the least… brought back memories and found this very interesting… That Capt Walton … must have knew my Dad ( Al Myreng).
Super interesting...the sheets of paint peeling off from all the twisting and turning of the hulls. 4 original ship lanterns...man that's so awesome. Thanks for sharing your stories here, Joe. HMM
As a Michigan native and growing up hearing Gordon lightfoots song, everything about the Fitzgerald is fascinating to me. I have a framed picture of the Fitzgerald that was of her in the storm and I’ll never leave it behind. I could listen to captain walton talk for hours about the Fitzgerald
The story of the Fitzgerald fascinates folks from all over the world, and I can see why you'd never part with your framed pic of the Mighty Fitz; it's a keeper! Thanks for your feedback and sharing your thoughts here. Capt. Darrell is America's Captain! HMM
Thank you, Don. This was a really great video! I've had a long-held fascination for the Edmund, and I'm watching it on this, the 47th Anniversary of the tragedy. We never forget. In my most humble and unimportant opinion, I concur with your opinions entirely. I have always subscribed to Cptn. Bernie Cooper's thoughts & opinions on the matter - mostly because he was there. He said he could see the EF on his radar, & that sailing blind (with both radars out) and in whiteout conditions, the EF was right over Six Fathom Shoal. Also, Cptn. McSorley's charts were 100 years old, & later surveys had showed the Shoal to be situated 1 mile further to the East of Caribou Island than McSorley's charts showed them to be. I think there's quite some significance in that singular detail. Investigators said there was no evidence that the EF ever touched the shoals, but along with Cptn. Cooper I have no choice but to disagree that she bottomed out. Loaded with 26k tons, she didn't need to hit bottom very hard to have done a significant amount of damage. The fact that McSorley had reported his railings as being down is a good indication of major structural damage, and he reported this to Cptn. Cooper shortly after passing by Caribou Island & Six Fathom Shoal. I don't think it's any mere coincidence. The upturned stern section of the hull may not show any evidence that she bottomed out on the shoal - but that section consists of less than 200 feet of her overall length of 729 feet, and as it's impossible to see the bottom of the 500 feet of her forward section - so that theory just doesn't fly with me. Cptn. Cooper believed that the EF was sinking from that moment on, and McSorley's reports that they were taking on water though the pumps were working, and they'd had developed a steep list. He'd lost a couple of vent covers, but they led to the gangways - not to the hold. The EF was beginning to ride lower and lower in the water, so they were losing buoyancy and taking longer to recover every time the large seas pushed them down. Based on much research I've formed a vivid mental visualisation of how this tragedy unfolded.... I can't even begin to imagine the sheer terror taking over on the bridge each time she went under, nor the sheer relief each time it popped back up..taking moments longer between each one as the EF settled lower..and lower into the water. They would have been existing between each submersion on pure hope - just 15 more miles of pure hope. Much less can I imagine the sheer terror they felt in that moment when they realised that they weren't coming up this time..... My God! The wreck shows that the two hatch covers directly behind the pilothouse (#20 & #21) are INSIDE THE HOLD, beaten into 'V' shapes.. Now how in heck do you suppose THAT happened? Jusst ONE cubic metre of water weighs one metric ton! So In my mind's eye, when those two (or three?) big rollers that Cptn. Cooper described caught up to the EF a few minutes later and hit her from behind, they would have rolled right up on her spar deck, crushing the EF under the force of tens of thousands of tons of water, and slammed right into the back of the pilothouse with catastrophic force. It would have very likely smashed the hatch-covers numbers 20 & 21 down into the hold (as they are seen on the wreck), and pushed her whole bow nose-down - and with sufficient buoyancy lost, she was not coming up this time... and that pilothouse would never see daylight ever again. ride that experts have estimated that it would have taken just 10 seconds from the surface to the bottom, 530 feet below. In the opinion of Cptn Cooper, the demise of the EF "was sudden and catastrophic".. He also believed that "she took a nose-dive", and the wreckage is proof of that. The damage to the ship's bow is indicative of a headlong nose-dive - straight into the rocky bottom of The Big Lake. I've often ventured into contemplations of what went through the minds of those poor men in the pilothouse at this point.... Exactly when did they realise that all hope of safe harbour had run out for them? At what point did the realisation hit them that they really weren't coming back up this time? Certainly SOMEONE realised that they were going down, because SOMEONE made it to the pilothouse door and managed to open it and even dogged it down... There's no way that it was left open and dogged whilst they were under way! My minds eye ventures still further into those few split seconds as the EF took her final plunge into the icy depths... They KNEW that they were going down, and i imagine that some would have tried to run for the door..while others would have remained firmly rooted to the spot in fear, their faces lit only by the pilothouse lights and instrument panels - and with every foot deeper they drscended into darkness, the pressure inside the pilothouse would have instantly risen to an unbearable, unbreathable crush - as the outside water pressure built up against the glass windows, causing the freezing lake-water to come smashing on through the pilothouse and sweeping them all, except for one, into the path of least resistance - down, down the stairs into the corridor behind the pilothouse... It's just.. Incomprehensible. It haunts me wondering which came first - the crushing inside pressure as they nose-dived down through 100 feet, 200 feet, 300 feet and to the point far beyond all human endurance.... or did the frigid waters come smashing through the pilothouse windows first ...? It haunts me, and I can only hope and pray that it was mercifully quick for all of them.... But I also give a substantial amount of headspace to the fact that the lake in that particular spot is 530 feet deep - whereas the EF was 729 feet long...so when her bow was smashing into the rocky lake bottom, at least 200 feet of her stern was still on the surface, whilst the weight of 26,000 tons of taconite (which now weighed thousands of tons more with the hold filled with water) would have driven the bow into the bottom faster than a speeding freight train, and begun tearing the superstructure apart. Added to this, the EF was still under full propulsion - driven by a 5,600kw Westinghouse powerplant tha was still spinning the shaft to its massive 19.5 foot propeller - that's a whopping 5.6 METERS! And I concur with you again here, Don - that with her bow on the bottom, and 200 feet of her stern still on the surface, that sheer weight (which was still under full propulsion) had to cause her superstructure to begin breaking up on the surface. I'm no engineer, but I believe that the massive amount of sheer torque to the still-spinning shaft under full steam would have caused the stern section to flip upside down as it ripped away from the nose-down bow section, and fully separating on it's way down and thereby dumping the 26k ton cargo in a massive pile between the two sections as the stern came to finally rest on the bottom. Furthermore, it was no secret that EF "had issues". Cptn McSorley has been quoted as saying that it actually scared him when The Fitz "did this wriggling thing" in big seas when she would twist in a way that wasn't considered characteristic of being 'normal'. I also once found a statement that said the EF's maintenance records showed that every time she was laid up the keelsons had to be rewelded - "like as if her skin was too big for her"..which may very well explain that "wriggling thing" which Cptn. McSorley spoke of. She was repeatedly overloaded and several crewmen who'd worked on her later said that they were loathe to go below decks when she was underway. So yes, there were known 'issues' - but yet again I concur that had her summer load-lines not been enforced so late in the season, then The Mighty Fitz may very well still be plying her cargo across the Great Lakes - in which case we would not be having this discussion. But 'ifs, buts and maybes' are pointless. Of course, these are just my opinion, based on everything that is possible to research on the subject, combined with my own vivid imagination and how I mentally visualise her demise. And as you say, how the EF came to be where she is doesn't really matter now. But I do think that the conclusions of the official investigation's were wrong. However, it is what it is and no amount of research or speculation can change the fact that 29 lives were lost under these tragic circumstances. Their loss of the EF had a massive impact on the entire region and the industry itself, whilst the psychological effects were felt far and wide..The sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald is, and always will be cause for much deliberation and inevitable disagreement. But on a personal and human level, each one of those 29 men all had families and friends who loved them, and who still mourn their loss. That's why it's so important to commemorate the Anniversary each year, to perpetuate their legacies, and to remember all of their devastated families in prayer. May the 29 souls who were lost on the Edmund Fitzgerald Rest in Peace, and let those who loved them find comfort and solace in their grief. Amen.
@@darrellwalton938 Hi Darrell, thank you - and thanks for the information and correction about the vents leading to the ballast tanks : ) It was explained to me that they had led to the gangways, and that they allow the sailors to traverse the length of the ship below decks, but perhaps that was incorrect? I was hoping that you might kindly explain how that works and why the ballast tanks require ventilation so that I can try to better understand it? That would be greatly appreciated - thank you! But I should say that anyway my main purpose for including this info about the vents was that so many people seem to be under the impression that the vents led to the hold, & therefore had contributed to flooding in the jog -
A few of my late friend's served on submarines in WW2, in the Mediterranean. She is known for violent heavy storms. In one case a sub was 90 feet underwater and suffered damage from the storms effect. For some reason the captain ordered the sub to surface. He and the first officer were washed overboard and the sub almost sank. The conning tower was full of water and it poured into the sub, one crewman closed the hatch in time. The sub was badly damaged with fittings torn from the sides, crewmen hurt and knocked unconscious.... 90 feet underwater. Never under estimate the fury of the sea. My late uncle served on the arctic convoys, he saw ship's dissappear in 10-15 seconds, they would hit a huge wave bow on....... gone forever. God bless all men who go to sea.
That is one of the best videos i have seen on the the fitzgerald and very powerful. Without a doubt mr walton is the 30th Victim of that awful tragedy. Dealing PTSD is a battle of its own. I live in northern ireland and due to the troubles having a father in the RUC i still im fighting against PTSD today. This video is a wonderful tribute to the walton family . My thoughts ans prayers are with you. RIP 30 men of the Big Fitz legend lives on .
Thanks for that Wayne. I hope you'll take the time to watch the first video I did on the Fitz...to complete the story. There is a lost Fitz crew member by the last name of Rafferty. Thanks for watching! HMM
My brother's were fishermen. We lived in Detroit, but they fished out of Bradenton Beach FL and somewhere in Alaska. They knew, and had drinks with, one of the crew of Andrea Gail. The stories they told, fascinating to hear. It was so enjoyable listening to this captain today on this show...I love everything about him. There's just something so awesome about men who go out to sea. Thank you for sharing today, and I'm glad the bell was finally rung for your father.
Thanks Sandra; I appreciate you sharing your thoughts here. Capt. Darrell is easy to love! Thanks for watching and remembering the brave men you referenced. HMM
My husband is a tow boat pilot. He runs the Mississippi River. A few years ago, three men were lost in the Mississippi near New Orleans. The water was so deep, they couldn't retrieve them from their sunken boat. To my knowledge, they never did recover the bodies. I don't think I ever really worried about something serious happening to my husband until then. He's been on the river for 30 years. I pray for the families of all who are lost and never recovered on rivers, lakes and in the oceans. It has to be so hard not to have your loved one back.
Thanks for sharing your stories here...so interesting. I always wanted to work the Mississippi River and her connecting tributaries. I worked the Great Lakes but not the rivers. For me, there is an attractive Mark Twain-Tom Sawyer-Huck Finn magical appeal to the Mighty Mississippi. Sure wish I could have had that experience. I wonder if your husband knows my good friend Captain Randy Williams; he's been a towboat Captain on the Mississippi for years. Thanks for watching...HMM
why do I watch these documentaries ... my heart is broken for everyone dear LORD Have mercy on the crew of the Edmund Fitzgerald and their families RIP
This was so much fun to watch. It was great to listen to Captain Walton tell all these great stories. Personally, I think part of the story that people don't know much about is that the Fitzgerald was at Sturgeon Bay up in Duluth for an emergency repair job right before all of this happened. Apparently it was suppose to come back and get work done. Unfortunately that never happened. That keel was always a problem, and I think that the waves pushed the Fitzgerald down, and then the waves were able to snap it in half. For all we know, those welds weren't strong enough, and the Fitzgerald didn't stand a chance. May all the men that were lost rest peacefully
You're welcome @HistoryMysteryMan . I remember watching a video that said the keel was loose, and that it had an emergency stop at Sturgeon Bay right before all of this happened, and that there's a shipyard that to this day has one inch plates that say "Edmund Fitzgerald." Even the chef that was replaced by Rafferty before the trip said the keel was loose, and that McSorley beat the heck out of the Fitzgerald. Both her and the Homer had weak keels and they both had flaws in their designs. I think they had a stress fracture of the hull that eventually cracked under pressure from the waves. That explains as to why the most recent sonar scan showed it was in rough shape. Goes to show the terrifying nature of Lake Superior
I have also heard discussion on the Fitz's weak keel. Biggest thing to me is that the Fitz only had 3 cargo holds, so less bulkheads that crossed the keel. It was made for ease of loading but ultimately it made the ship vulnerable. Thanks again, sir...@@shawndavis8438
@HistoryMysteryMan you're welcome, sir. Personally, I think that the Fitzgerald was unfortunately doomed from the start. In fact, there's a video that had a gentleman by the name of Tugboat Jim, who knew Ronnie Roman, who was on the Anderson the night the Fitzgerald went down. And everyone knew that her keel was loose, and that it was abused. My theory is the waves basically made the Fitzgerald dive like a submarine, and it landed with so much force, that it snapped liked a pencil. Like Capt. Darrell said, they don't want anyone to know the truth because they don't want to held liable. They knew the ship was in bad shape. I hope for the sake of the families, they are able to find closure
I work at Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Company in Downtown Milwaukee...been there almost 35 years now. NML was started in 1857. That picture you show of Edmund Fitzgerald is on the 8th floor of our majestic South Office Building (with the huge Greek columns) built in 1914. All of our past Company President & CEOs are displayed in huge paintings in the hallway up there. I work on the 1st floor - just West of our gorgeous marbled and gold-Greek-themed Lobby. I believe our Board of Trustees at the time, bought the ship as an investment, and in honor of Edmund, named it after him and told him at one of the Board Meetings. I heard he was a very humble Irish Catholic man and was very flattered and almost embarrassed somewhat to get all that attention. I heard he was truly devastated when the ship went down and didn't like to talk about it since it was so heartbreaking to him and all the families who lost loved ones. Northwestern Mutual is a wonderful company. I've always felt so honored and privileged to be working there and pray I can retire from NML someday as well. I've always been fascinated by anything and everything I can learn about this ship and the unfortunate tragedy. I usually end up crying too every time I hear the Gordon Lightfoot song. For some reason, I've always felt so connected to this and I'm not quite sure why? Thank you for this video Sir! Much appreciated!!! 😊
Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts here. You brought in a personal side I had not thought about...the namesake and the company behind it. I think it's awesome that you have the high level of respect for the NMLIC that you do...sounds like a gorgeous building! Thanks for watching and remembering the Mighty Fitz and her crew. HMM
I have to echo your interviewee's query--why on earth was the ship named for another ship that sank? Is it possible they didn't know there was an earlier ship of that name?
I remember well when the loss of the Edmund Fitzgerald was announced in the news and it was such a tragic event. The tribute song Gordon Lightfoot sang about this ship and its crew will long recall the sinking and the souls who were taken. God bless these men, their loved ones and friends.🙏
Absolutely loved the videos! Captain Walton knows his stuff as well as Captain Cooper! I’ve believed for some time that the Fitzgerald bottomed on Caribou shoal. It’s the only thing that makes sense. There is a video interview with captain cooper from years ago and he said the same thing as Captain Walton. Your videos are the best and most informative on this subject.
Hello Sir! You've done a wonderful job on the original and this sequel. Thank you, especially for putting faces to the sailors who perished. Likewise, being able to see photos of those lost humanizes this tragedy and makes it more powerful for me. I also appreciate that you give Mr. Walton free rein to talk without constantly interrupting him, something many interviewers need to learn. Your delivery is so good you could do this professionally! Looking forward to more.
Thanks; I appreciate your kind words. I sure would like to step up my production a notch or two. Just me, a cell phone and a laptop. Thanks for your support! HMM
A thanks to Capt Walton for sharing his knowledge and views. Those of us who have never been there can argue until the day is done, but those who have been there have that intuition, the experience in time and place, to really feel the moment. Most of them know, in their heart like his father did, what the truth may be, because they truly understand it. The Fitz was built to be a legend, and in that she succeeded beyond what anyone ever believed it could be. God bless the 29 aboard and those left behind.
And the greedy steel barons, sit in their ivory towers, while good men die, and they never lose a thing except their profits, and the insurance scam is played, so losses are either compensated, or at least minimalized. The vessel should have been in dry dock at least a year earlier, but there again, profits must be made! Tightwads were loathe to pay for maintenance. Thank you for covering this. My heart has hurt ever since I first saw it covered on our local news, when it happened.
I call him "the Harley guy" to my friends I've shared your two parts with. I'm big on history too but including the Civil War & WW II. But when the Harley guy (emblem on his T-shirt) gave you that piece of rope, I know that made your hard work all worthwhile! Another big Thank You! Well done! I subbed after your part one & hope my pals did too!
I was in 9th grade Algonac High sitting in Social Studies when we heard the Edmund Fitzgerald had gone down. It has stayed with me all these years. Thank you for this. The Freighters going up and down the St. Clair River always fascinated me.
That's one thing about Michigan, especially right on the lakes...a saying we have in Michigan is "If you don't like the weather, wait ten minutes, because it's GONMA change". Weather on the Great Lakes changes literally minute to minute sometimes.
From Sandusky Ohio . What an excellent documentary. Enjoyed every minute. Thanks for all of your hard work in bringing this to light. Darrell and his family are the salt of the earth. Again thanks.
Thank you for these videos with so much information. I know my opinion doesn't matter much but in all that I've see ln about the Fitz, the fact she was about 200 feet longer than the water is deep, I can't help but think her bow hit bottom while the stern was still on the surface. I think this simply because Mcsorley wasn't able to get a call out...and I think he was probably right there at the radio because he was talking to the Anderson. I think the bow plowed into a wave and due to the flooding, the bow was forced to the bottom pretty much instantaneously, blew the windows out and it was over so fast he had no time to call out. The impact with the bottom broke her back and the momentum of the propeller flipped the stern over where it ended up. I am as sad about the Fitzgerald as I am about the Titanic. Every time I hear about or watch a documentary about ships sinking with people on board, it breaks my heart. Thanks again
Thanks for your post, Wayne; I really enjoyed reading it. Everything you say makes perfect sense. The Fitz and the Titanic are heart-breaking stories for sure. HMM
@@HistoryMysteryMan every time I see documentaries on any ship, especially with loss of life, its heartbreaking. The Lusitania was another one. I know it was sunk during WW1 but I find it hard to believe any person could hit a ship like that with a torpedo knowing the loss of life would probably be huge. I just think that that submarine captain had a lot to answer for on his judgement day.
What a shame that money, it seems, is preventing an investigation from the structure of the boat itself. Thanks for independent investigation and the thoughtful analysis of the best facts that are available. And the courage to tell us your opinion.
I think your assessment of the failure of the ship is certainly reasonable. We know that the Carl D. Bradley broke in half and we also know that the huge waves cause any ship to sag and hog and the extra weight of the water in the hold (which could have been caused by banging a shoal) could very quickly exceed the maximum weight that the hull could bear. Once she got enough water in her hold (however it got there) she was doomed, especially in such a tremendous storm. Working a Merchant Mariner is not for the faint of heart, it's only June one month out of the year and it only takes ONE November storm to end you.
I grew up in Michigan, and was always interested in this but could never find anything that told me what happened.( remember I was a punk kid back then) I find it very interesting that more and more keeps coming out about this. The never really stays hidden but it might take a long time to come out. Thanks for the time and effort you put into this, I know it takes a lot of time on the back side to get all this done.
You have produced a very well done video! Thank you. Thanks to Captain D. Walton for sharing his detailed insights on the Fitz tragedy. And to all of the Edmund Fitzgerald seaman who perished that fateful day: R. I. P.
Thanks for your video my friend! This is a story that has long fascinated me, as I’ve also visited the white fish bay museum, and just like you, I feel like there’s more to know about it’s story. Thanks for sharing Bruce
My sister and I sailed across Nantucket Sound in a small ferry, when the Captain ran into rough water. The waves increased until the water rose over the ship!!! My sister & I stayed out side by hooking our elbows along the outside rails. The ship sputtered and sputtered. The ship rose and fell into troughs. Flying into the air, crashing into the troughs!! Oh my gawd! The rain fell, the wind lashed. We remained outside. All the tourists were inside ...SICK!! SICK! SICK!! but we are hearty fish wives & not afraid of the sea. Crazy Then the sky cleared, and the sea swells surrendered and calmed. WHATA TRIP!! My sister and I were banned from the Harwich ferry for the rest of the season! Ah! Nantucket, at last!
Years before the Edmund Fitzgerald sank, there was a French ship that went down in the same area. Some people claim the body is from the Edmund Fitzgerald and some claim the body is from the French ship. Also There are storms I've been through when we've secured a wheelhouse door open to make it easier to hear what is happening outside the wheelhouse on the ship or a horn from another ship. That said though, I'm a saltwater sailor and have never worked the great lakes. You've done a great job on the Edmund Fitzgerald Don!
Interesting...never knew about the French ship. Makes perfect sense on dogging the pilot house doors open to help hear your surroundings. Thanks for your compliment...greatly appreciated. HMM
What always fascinated me is that the Fitz was running both bilge pumps. Each pump was capable of moving 7000 gallons of water per minute. So, for her to be sinking, she was taking on more than 14,000 gallons per minute.
Absolutely the most informative video with credible knowledge yet. Thank you for the research and love shown for The Big Fitz and crew. On the morning of the 10th, I left the firehouse after a 24 hour shift, went and bought flowers and placed them in the water at Jones Island near the spot she was photographed on it's only known visit to the city that adorned her stearn. Learning about the summer and winter load lines is fascinating new information. Also a huge thank you to Captain Walden for his sharing of knowledge and truth on the matter.
Love this video! It feels funny to say that because in the end it really is a tragic story but the love comes from the honor you've shown those men. A real tribute. Thank you. The Captain is an absolute treasure!
YOU are the real goods.......Liiving in old fishing lodge........ on batchawana bay....saw huge waves destroy our place,,,,,100 foot logs driven into Gros Cap cliffs...150 feet above the lake line...the second wave that sunk the Fitz was that big...hell yah We was there.......namaste to all the crew lost....Finnster
@@HistoryMysteryMan I work on the intracoastal and western rivers, we get some rough weather out here also, nothing comes close to what happens on the great lakes, remembering the names is a great way to honor the sailors out here, look forward to going to the museum, it's on my bucket list, God bless
Great video, sir. Thank you. Absolutely that gentleman is the 30th person lost. Sadly, I imagine many people who lived long after the sinking were "lost." Lives irreparably changed due to the tragic loss of a loved one. These events affect so many. I didn't know the Fitzgerald had so many structural issues. This and the Coast Guards allowance of running summer loads in November frustrates me. Great history. Please keep producing!
Very nice job, Don! Thanks for the ringing of the bell for my Dad, the 30th victim!
Thank you For taking part in these videos What you have told us make a lot sense
My father was a captain on the Reserve the final years of his career, small world.
@@picustchuck My father was Chief Engineer on the Reserve, the night the Fitz went down.
Greetings from SE Kentucky. Your Dad was a hero and was indeed the 30th victim. I hate that he had such a hard life buy I'm sure thanks to you and your fine family made sure that he had some moments of joy in between. Which is what life is all about. Thank you for the fascinating interview that you did. Could listen to y'all talk all day.
Captain Darrell is so much fun to listen to...cheers to his dad. Thanks for watching...HMM
I could listen to Capt Darrell talk for hours. A great orator of the great lakes shipping.
Ain't he the best?! I'm so glad I tracked him down...he made the video. Thanks for watching Daniel...HMM
I would love to hear what he thought of the sinking of the Morrell and other famous ships that have gone down. I'm sure he has alot of knowledge on those subjects. Maybe he can have himself and a panel of survivors on a video discussing their individual experiences.
The body they found was most likely the watchman. He always had work coveralls on in every known photo of him. He is seen with work cover alls laying near the Fitz with a hastily dawned cork life jacket on. He would have been in the pilot house that fateful night and so when the bow went under, they had a few seconds to put the Fitz in the stop position and the watchman threw on a life jacket but was dragged down to the bottom at depths where water pressure negates the buoyancy of such life vests. Not trying to be morbid here, but Stonehouse and others I have read or watched propose this theory that the body was already there from a previous sinking or disaster and the Fitz just happened to lay next to the this older corpse. Ridiculous. I really think this was an attempt at damage control but the geenie was already let out of the bottle. Shannon let that kid and his father go down, they reported the body, he said he was going to publish photos of the body. That traumatized the surviving family and so someone in our parasitic Michigan legislature along with the wimps in the Canadian government took action that effectively killed any further expeditions to the wreck. Trying to claim it was a body from a previous wreck did not prevent this. Stonehouse is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, in my opinion. So the discovery of the body and the conditions are indeed very relevant in that is all we have left to act on to solve the mystery as best we can based on the facts. For whatever reason, the Fitz reported a list not long after passing 6 fathom shoal. The waves had not reached significant height at that point to tear any hatch covers off the cargo holds, so scratch hatch covers not being properly fastened off the causes of the list. It had either scaped bottom earlier at Caribou Island or stress fractures. small at first, let water in from an all weather captain "can't make no money sitting at anchor" who 'beat the shit out of the Fitz' and the crew was supposedly getting afraid to sail on her, who was welded together in nearby River Rogue MI where defective welds were passed off by 2 separate men who were not in contact with each other who couldn't wait to relieve the guilt they felt by telling this to my father. I married the daughter of one of them, the other came up randomly. So you have a rotten keel with bad welds and a poor fitting skin that by many accounts was not seaworthy at the beginning of 1975, not only fully loaded by overloaded by 3 feet, broken and shoddy repair jobs and broken welds needing a 'rest', going out into the perfect storm over Lake Superior, a small ocean in and of itself. The stage was set for disaster the second all weather McSorley tried to beat that storm that fateful november day. So for whatever reason, the Fitz started to take in water faster than her massive pumps could make any progress. This proves the hull was compromised. McSorley knew she was sinking at that point and slowed down for the Anderson to catch up. Whether McSorley should have went full speed ahead towards the sanctity of Whitefish Bay or ran her aground the Canadian shoreline I will leave to those who are the captains of vessels. So moving forward at half speed, McSorley's last words were 'we are holding our own'. I would have admitted defeat and surrendered by ramming the Fitz on the Canadian shoreline, but then again, i am was never a captain, Given the competence of some I worked under, maybe i should have been, but.....So sheis taking on water, overloaded by 3 feet, and is being ripped apart from the power of 30-50 foot waves, Right around the time Cooper claims those 2 massive 50 foot waves rocked the Anderson in succession (the waves may have been as high as 80 feet) they catch up to a water logged bow heavy ship and drive her under, Sudden and catasrophic, an open pilot house door, the ship in the stop position, and the failed escape attempt and no ditress call and the layer of taconite pellets all over the top of the bow section prove that the bow sank either detached or hanging bythreads to the stern, the wreckage and debris field suggest the Fitz broke apart like a green stick fracture right at where the elbow or joint hinge of the ship was, where the stress fractures would have lined up and caused the ship to break into the 3 sections she has since rested in. The bow section, which from the visible, extensive damage, suggests plunging at steep angle, the 'missing section' which is a debris field in the middle where the ship was ripped apart right at the elbow or flexing point of the ship, then the capsized stern which would have been twisted in such a fashion in a greenstick like fracture or break up.
Wow...another one packed with information. Again, I'm going to have to read this a few times to get it all. Thanks for sharing your thoughts here...greatly appreciated. HMM
Covers everything. One point most overlook is thyat McSorely reported a fence down. That's a heavy steel cable going nearly from end to end on either side. The only way you can lose a fence is if it pulls loose from an end, which is darn near impossible; if something hits it and stretches it beyond it's breaking point, which in the middle of the lake there's nothing to do that, or if the ship hogs, bending upward in the middle stretching the cable to it's breaking point. Just as what would happen if it shoaled in the middle which is where she finally broke apart. And that broken fence was reported after passing Caribou shoals. No other explanation of the broken fence comes close to matching what we know for fact. McSorley was also known for regularly running tight to that shoal with some hearsay reports from long before the wreck that crewmen had more than once heard and felt mild shoaling there. So to me anyway, the chain of events leading to her loss began when she shoaled. The taking on of water causing the list could have been hull damage, the loss of 2 vents also reported, or both. If indeed she shoaled McSorely would not have spoken of it, for that would have cost him his job for risking her on a known hazard. Likely he knew it but believed they were OK to continue on and in port he could have claimed to been blown off course if it were discovered.
Another interesting point is that the #1 hatch was discovered pushed into the hold intact, with the coaming it was attached to bent inward. That would take a huge amount of force to accomplish. It is believed that with everything else buttoned up tight, almost no amount of water washing over a hatch could do this because air pressure inside the hold would be resisting that, yet if the hull were broken then air pressure could not build to resist that, which also signals she at least partially broke up on the surface- maybe completely- when too much water built up on the hatch instantly flooding the holds the moment she began to go under.
Two more interesting points are that the pump intakes were linked and arranged port and starboard, so with a list one side would be above any water in the hold and the other side could not draw until the high side met water. This would have allowed a large amount of water to build before the pumps would have been effective, and even then they couldn't get it all with her listing. There's also the cargo. Taconite is basically iron ore compressed into pellet form with moisture and pressure to allow easier loading/unloading, then it is baked dry to remove the moisture and lighten it. If Taconite gets wet it absorbs moisture which will not dry out in a ship's hold. So with the list and water in the hold, the Taconite on that side would have become heavier and stayed that way. McSorley knew these things, and would have almost certainly been pumping water into the ballast tube on the opposite side to correct the list as much as he could to make the pumps more effective.That added weight would have made her ride lower, exposing her to the waves more, while also increasing the load and stress on the hull which he didn't know had been critically weakened by the shoaling. Any other Captain in his shoes would have done exactly this.
Same as with most disasters there's not one single event but a chain of them which brings about the end results. Adding all this to her poor condition and the heavy seas made the end result almost inevitable and well beyond foreseeing and preventing. The only change which might have saved her was if she hadn't shoaled yet that can't be said for certain if her hull was already weak there, which it probably was. Or McSorley could have returned to port when the storm began building beyond the forecasted strength, or had never left port at all which many other Captains chose to do that day. It was normalized deviance for McSorley; he'd always gotten away with tempting fate before so he thought he'd be OK doing it again- only he was wrong this time. RIP to them all.
As a retired captain and based on everything I know about this disaster I don't see how attempting to alter course and run the ship aground makes any sense at all. While McSorely did know he was taking on water he was still making way toward safe harbor and there was no indication that a catastrophic breakup or nosedive was imminent. Once past Caribou Island where the possible bottom strike took place the safety of Whitefish Bay was nearly as close as any possible grounding point anyway so thats absolutely where you try to go. There is no other option.
@@kayakdog121 Understood...thanks for sharing your thoughts here...super interesting. HMM
Excellent points and very believable. Thanks for the educated opinion. I've been fascinated by the "FITZGERALD" for years now.Still am.
RIP, Wade W. Walton. Thank you for your service.
Indeed...thanks Mr. Walton...HMM
Thank you for the kind words for my Dad...
I was very impressed with your guest Mr Darrell Walton, obviously a warm, open and very genuine man. Thank you and compliments on your work and dedication!
Thanks Bobby; I know Darrell appreciates it! HMM
Thanks to the Walton family for all they have done. So sorry for your losses. I really enjoyed this. Thanks.
You're welcome; thanks for taking the time to watch! HMM
That Gordon Lightfoot song is awesome
Oh I know; it's sooo powerful. Thanks for chiming in! HMM
Last night (Thursday Nov. 10 - 2022) My wife and I attended the 47th anniversary solemn ceremony of the disappearance and sinking of The Edmond Fitzgerald, at The Dossin Great Lakes Museum on Detroit's Belle Isle. It was attended by many people involved with Great Lakes Mariners in both the USA & Canada. There was a flotilla of boat's on both sides of the Detroit River, including Fire Department fire fighting vessel's from both Detroit & Windsor Canada spraying water into the air. A wreath of 29 red roses for each of the 29 lost crew members, plus one white rose to
represent ALL the Mariners who lost their lives throughout the history of sailing The Great Lakes in America and Canada. Bag Pipers played before and during the 7:10pm laying of the wreath in the middle of the Detroit River. Musican Lee Murdock sang many Great Lakes Folk songs during the presentation which started at 6pm, in front of an anchor that the Fitzgerald lost while traveling through the Detroit River before it sank.
Guitar and singer Lee Murdock sang the song that Gorden Lightfoot made famous about the wreck of The Edmond Fitzgerald. It truly was a moving night, just a few miles East of The Mariners Church where the first and continuous Church services are held every November in honor of the crew of the Edmond Fitzgerald. Glad that we attended last night.
Wow! Thanks for sharing this. I'm so jealous...so wish I would have attended this meaningful ceremony. Do you know if any of the Fitz's family members were in attendance? I never knew about this ceremony. If they have it every year, I'm definitely going next year. Thanks for watching, Rick! HMM
I remember going to college, Dad drove he was teaching me how to drive, and The Edmund Fitzgerald song cane on...I said I know this ship, what happened to her? And my Dad said, they don't know, but they think it might have been a freak wave.
At the time, rogue waves, were something you experienced but you never really talked about them...until the first one, the Draupner Wave, was recorded in the North Atlantic.
My Dad was a Sailor, he never talked about what he did, but when we were talking about the Fitzgerald, he did tell me one of his experiences, they were in rough seas, the hatches were all sealed, and he was lying in his bunk. The ship was forging through the waves, and then there's this one wave, she started driving into it. Said he was in his bunk, could feel the engines driving the ship down,, all the while saying come up ship, come up ship...then all of a sudden she popped up.
My brother said it best, The Great Lakes, aren't lakes, they're inland seas, and he's not wrong, Chesapeake Bay is another one, and you need to be experienced, before sailing her especially in summer when the thunderstorms hit in the afternoon.
Condolences to the families of this ship, Sailors were just doing their jobs, wanting to complete a task, get home, and tragedy struck, it's hard and something you never get over. Lived near the water my whole life and the water can be calm, soothing, and serenely unforgiving all in a day.
Wow...that's an awesome memory you share with your dad...learning about the Fitz. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and stories here...and thanks for remembering the Mighty Fitz and her crew. HMM
I can tell you exactly why you can't dive on the Fitz. It has entirely to do with the insurance company not wanting new evidence being brought to light in order to be used in a claim by the families.
I find it creepy ship was owned by life insurance company says google
@@vincemcmain663it was owned by Liberty Mutual Life Insurance, that’s correct. But anyone or any company could get involved in the shipping industry so long as they have the coin to invest in it. It was a booming industry back then, and it was an investment. Who it was owned by was pure coincidence.
Wrong..... Yes, diving on the Edmund Fitzgerald wreck is illegal without the Canadian government's approval. The Canadian government passed a law in 2006 that makes it illegal to dive on the Edmund Fitzgerald and two other ships in Lake Superior, and that anyone who violates the law faces a $1 million fine. The Canadian government officially recognizes the wreck as a gravesite and has declared it off-limits for further diving and exploration
Statute of limitations ran on that long time ago
What's the difference between the Fitz, and say the Kamloops? There are bodies in the Kamloops, and you can even go into the engine room, and take a picture of "Whitey", a dead body that is in the engine room. You can dive them wrecks, but the Fitz is somehow different? Also, even if you consider the Fitz a gravesite.... Does the Canadian government tell people they can't go to a cemetery? If they don't mess with the ship, I see no reason that they can't dive it.
Happy Valentine's day and Happy Anniversary to Captain Darryl and his Mrs.!❤️
Thank you Holly, for the very nice wishes for our 48th anniversary!
OMG. The rope segment brought a tear to my eye. What a generous gift.
Thanks for sharing these videos.
You're welcome Eric; thanks for watching...HMM
@@HistoryMysteryMan I’m certain everyone would like to see that once you get it framed for display.
I’ll watch anything on the Fitz in honor of the men who went down with her. This was very well done..
Thank you so much Ronald...and thanks for remembering the Mighty Fitz and her crew. HMM
Growing up in Michigan, I remember that day. As a family we cried. I had to go to Whitefish Bay as an adult. It is a beautiful place. You can't help but feel solemn when you are there. God bless the families who were left with the memories of their loved ones.
I need to get to Whitefish Bay soon; I've never experience it. Thanks to you and yours for remembering the Mighty Fitz and her crew. HMM
For over 60 years I've lived very close to Lake Michigan. As a kid our parents used to take the family to Stearns Park in Ludington which is the Lake Michigan beach. There are two breakwalls and light houses. During winter storms we would watch unimaginable waves plummet the light house as the winter blizzard hammered everything in sight. To this day I get in my jeep and dtrive to Stearns Park and watch thunder and snow storms roll in. What a change from the calm days of spring and summer! This tradegy to this day still touches my soul. May God grant peaceful rest to the men who lost their lives and to the surviving family members of the Edmund Fitzgerald.
Thanks for sharing your story here, Steven. It'd be neat to sit at Stearns Park and watch the weather come ashore. Thanks for remembering the Mighty Fitz and her crew. HMM
That piece of rope, to many of us, absolutely priceless! Wonderful interview
Yes! I framed it...thanks. HMM
Excellent video and that was truly an honor to hand over a prized piece of the Fitz lifeboat rope. And as I drive a lot fixing machines around the country I’ll listen to Gordon Lightfoots the wreck of the Edmond Fitzgerald. And my heart always goes out to the poor men who knew their fate and to the families who knew it also. I live 500 feet from the Atlantic Ocean in north long branch NJ. I walk a lot up in Sandy hook national rec area. I’ve seen the power of water. The awesome power. And I’ve heard it said in previous videos the lake doesn’t have the rolling waves. And that makes for a whole new dynamic I don’t know. It’s hard to seperate as a ship captn the need to keep sailing as no sailing no money and the balance of the unimaginable responsibility of the crew. We are all Always just human. Even airline pilots don’t want to die in a plane crash. Yet one miscalculation or misjudgment can put them as the capt in the wheelhouse left with the last thoughts they will ever have. Here’s to the men of the mighty Fitz and to all the brave sailors who learn the language of the sea.
Super interesting thoughts Ronald; thanks for sharing them here. This is, in part, why I do these videos...to hear all this great feedback and reflection I receive. Thanks for taking the time to watch. Stop by anytime...HMM
I live in Duluth Minnesota. I grew up on Puget Sound. The power of Lake Superior has to truly be seen to be believed!
I'd love to take a trip north and spend some time around Superior...White Fish Point...do the whole deal. Thanks for watching...HMM
Amazing. In 1977, My maternal grandfather, Richard Francis Caruzzi, had a sailing ketch “Left-Handed Yeoman” which was bound from from Lake Erie, out the Saint Lawrence Seaway, down the east coast to Florida. A November gale sank the Yeoman, and killed my grandfather. A rogue wave rolled her over while he was below checking on the diesel. His wife and stepdaughter were on deck, wearing life jackets, and were swept overboard and survived. They said it was so bad the Coast Guard wouldn’t even go out. My grandfather’s body washed ashore the next day. RIP RFC 1912-1977.
Wow! Thanks for sharing your story here. I'm sorry you lost your grandfather. Thanks for watching...HMM
@@HistoryMysteryMan Thank you. I’ve sailed now for many years, always think of him. I was 10 years old when it happened. My only way of understanding is that I think he was a pretty green skipper, and didn’t have the experience in Lake Erie and knowledge of his boat, local conditions, and his own capabilities to make the right weather decision and stay in port that day. Mother Nature is always in charge.
@@TheGhostrider9667 Thanks for sharing your thoughts here...HMM
TheGhostrider9667 I’m so sorry to hear about your grandfather! Thank you for sharing his story. ❤️
My grandfather sailed on the lakes for 50+ years. Last ship was the Clifford F. Hood. He became President of the International Shipmasters lodge in Cleveland Ohio. When the E Fitzgerald went down I knew Grandpa (Norbert Fahey) knew all those men and weeks of grief he endured. Bless all those lost Souls.
Your grandfather would have been a fascinating interview. Thanks for sharing your story here. God bless the souls on the Mighty Fitz. HMM
You can just tell how proud he his of his family..it’s beautiful to see.
New subscriber. I've got alot of videos on the Fitz. A old lumber felling saw painted with a beautiful scene of the Great ship on that night hangs above my front doors.
Nov.10/1970 is my birthday so I always have been connected, just in my mind.
Capt Bernie tells what he thought happened to deal the death blow to the mighty Fitzgerald and after 1,000's of hours of research I agree.
The fact his fench rail was down on the port side is the smoking gun. That happened just when they were passing the shoals, and means there's a bad Crack making her twist wicked bad.
Then the lack of the other three bulkheads caused the pellets to plug the pump screens up everytime see rolled. So pumps were only doing half of what they could have been doing at best.
The Fitzgerald has been a part of my life since childhood. As a family we went to the locks several times watching the freighters come and go. I feel in love with the big ships picnicking there along side the locks in the 70's.
Thank you for bringing attention to this preventable tragedy caused by its times.
God bless all those good men who lost their lives that November Night when the Witch was raising Hell.
Jeff...Your thoughts make a lot of sense; thanks for sharing them here...HMM
My fathers cousin Bob Rafferty was on the Fitz. I remember clearly the phone call he received when she was lost. My dad waited up all night in hope Bob would be saved. Thank you for your work and effort to remember those souls lost on the mighty Fitz. Bless all the families of those lost.
Thanks Kathleen...so appreciated. I think Mr. Rafferty lived in Toledo if I'm not mistaken. I'd love to find some of his family members and talk with them, is you can help. Thanks for remembering the Mighty Fitz and her crew...HMM
@@HistoryMysteryMan they will be the Wisconsin Rafferty’s. Let me look into it.
@@HistoryMysteryMan his daughter has given interviews in the past. - Pam Johnson was 23 years old and pregnant with her fourth child when she picked up a newspaper that Tuesday in 1975 and learned her father had died. She is easy to find.
I believe she is in Toledo. My hubby was raised on Homer Street. Also possibly in Michigan.
@@kathleen5678 Thank you...HMM
Congrats. I hope you cherished your gift. Captain Darrel Walton is a true friend 🧡
It's framed behind glass...thanks.
Yeah Brother, I also heard from a guy at the 30th anniversary memorial, he thinks that the reason the stern went upside down is that when it broke up the torque of that huge propeller spun the stern so it flipped over.
That's exactly what happened
I'm not a big fan of theory that the stern flipped from the rotation of the prop. I think she broke when the bow hit the bottom leaving the stern to float standing on end for a few short moments (because it's still buoyant) to then sink landing upside down.
When the Captain told his buddy on the Anderson that his handrail lines had snapped, they both knew something had flexed beyond anything they could control.
Thanks for your thoughts T.E. Ross; I appreciate you...HMM
Born in Marquette in 1968 these stories always hit home for me thanks for sharing
There certainly come home for me too...thanks for watching...HMM
I worked by the Maritime Cathedral in Detroit and would listen to the bells toll for the Edmund Fitzgerald. Much respect to those merchant Mariners that rest with her!
Thanks for sharing your story here, David. Man...to hear those bells...wow. HMM
I went up to Whitefish Point for a memorial service on 11/10/2019. While headed to the museum that night, I ran into a few white-out conditions - how fitting. It was an honor to sit amongst the still grieving family members of the crew. It was so very moving to see/hear a loved one of each of the departed ring the actual bell, as their name was called. I shall never forget it!
So cool to hear your stories. Is that service done on the day (Nov. 10) every year? I would like to attend next year. Thanks for your support, Wendell. HMM
I had family sailing in the Great Lakes in 1604
I get the feeling that Darrell really appreciates you for taking such an interest in not only the Fitz......but more importantly the lives of those lost. Darrell would be one hell of a guy to have a beer with......he must know an awful lot about this topic. Pretty cool that he gave you that piece from the life boat!
Thanks...and I appreciate Darrell for sharing his knowledge and stories on the Mighty Fitz. Thanks for watching...HMM
Thank you for posting. I remember very well the song from the mid 70's. Being from CT I've always had an interest in maritime history. Fascinating to learn about shipping on the Great Lakes and the story behind this iconic song.
Thanks Jay. Great Lakes shipping is sooo fascinating. I appreciate you taking the time to watch...HMM
I spent 9 months on the USNS Maury back in the late 1989 and she was an oceanographic survey ship. We were surveying the west pacific and in January of 1990 we encountered a massive storm while surveying around the Aleutian Islands. The Maury (Now T.S Golden Bear) is 499 feet in length and we had 45 foot plus seas and when we were on the back side of the waves the oncoming wave would go over the wheelhouse and land midship. I used my survival suit as a pillow and would listen to the turbochargers on the mains load and unload to determine how big the waves were. Thank you for the great videos.
Your survival suit as a pillow...wow! Super-cool story, and thanks for sharing it here. No thanks on the 45' seas...Lord. HMM
My girlfriend has lived in Northern Wisconsin her whole life. A number of the crew were from her rural community. Some of them were her classmates in high school. Her father worked on those ore boats as well. Lake Superior is a VERY treacherous lake. Her dad would tell her of waves up to fifty feet sometimes when he was sailing. When the wind starts to blow you want to get off that lake pronto!
Great stories, Frank! Thanks for sharing them here. I've worked the Great Lakes in the winter time...super scary place. HMM
Great guest. Same with airline crashes, due to non thorough maintenance-"Keep it in the air" & hurry hurry hurry. Thanks for sharing.
The profit margin starts at MGTOW.
You're welcome; thanks for watching! HMM
When the Fitz went down I was working in a Chrysler factory and my fellow employee had a cousin on the Fitz when it sank. I remember the family sorrow when his body was not found. Thank you for this memory.
Heartbreaking...thanks for sharing your story here. Any idea who that cousin was? HMM
@@HistoryMysteryMan sorry I do not and my friend has passed.
@@jimeckenrode1271 Thanks Jim...HMM
At the age of 23 as a native of Upper Michigan while living near Mcfarland I received a call from the Union in Marquette offering me a position as a wiper on the Edmund Fitzgerald in Oct. of 1975. It would have been my 1st job as a merchant marine and my last if I had accepted it. I stopped by the docks in Marquette and looked at the ship and decided that I would rather go to Colorado and moved to Leadville CO the highest city in the nation at over 10,151 ft above sea level. So there I was when the sinking happened in Nov. high and dry instead of at the bottom of the lake off of Whitefish Point where I had fished a few times in my teens. I feel sorry for the crew that I never got to know, but have read there names listed in a video about the wreck and know that I am very lucky that I was not one of them.
Wow...incredible story. This is, in part, why I do this stuff...to hear these great stories that come back to me. Thanks for sharing this one here. Thanks for watching...HMM
I began my 42 year maritime career two years after the Fitz went down. I've collected a lot of nautical antiques and souvenirs over the years but if somebody gave me the smallest peice of anything from the Edmund Fitzgerald it would be cherished more than everything else I have combined. You're a lucky man.
Thanks; I appreciate you. And yes, I do feel fortunate! HMM
Grew up in Windsor in grade school would skip school to watch the lake freighters pushing through the straight, saw EDMUND FITZGERALD rollin through god bless the souls!
Hey now that's an awesome childhood memory; thanks for sharing it here. And thanks for remembering the Mighty Fitz and her crew...HMM
Thank U both Captain Don and Captain Darrel, 4 putting new "Insite" out on this most "Famous" Great Lakes shipwreck. May the lost crew and their families, never B forgotten. Amen
You're welcome Log Dog! Thanks for watching...HMM
I would like to thank you. I watched your first video, and learned so much that wasn't told before. This, this is heart wrenching. I do believe she went straight down, her bow pushed under. Perhaps the door was open because they realized she wasn't coming up, and was trying to reach the surface?
This was moving, as was your last one. I don't know how many times I've wiped my eyes, but you bring the compassion, the heart, and the human aspect of this tragedy, not just the facts. You can feel your heart in your videos. Magnificent. Thank you for sharing with us. 😥
I believe that door open from the force of hitting the bottom and was jammed open forever to be a sign of God taken his good men to heaven
Great video Don, and my hats off to Captain Walton on his views of this tragedy.
Thanks Rene...greatly appreciated. HMM
I don’t know how I stumbled on this … my Dad sailed the freighter for Bethlehem Steel . He spent numerous seasons on the Arther B. Homer ( the sister ship). I heard numerous ship names … like the Bethlehem ship “Steelton” … and the “Mather”. My Dad was a shopkeeper for the Mater one winter in Buffalo. I have 4 original ship lanterns from the “ Mather” . I have been on these freighters as a kid when they would come into the Bethlehem Lackawanna Plant to unload taconite from Duluth. I saw the big sheets of paint in the tunnel that goes bow to stern that would peel off the Arther B Homer. My Dad said it was from the torque of the ship. Never understood that then but do now. These sheets of paint were huge ( size of blankets). To say the least… brought back memories and found this very interesting… That Capt Walton … must have knew my Dad ( Al Myreng).
Super interesting...the sheets of paint peeling off from all the twisting and turning of the hulls. 4 original ship lanterns...man that's so awesome. Thanks for sharing your stories here, Joe. HMM
As a Michigan native and growing up hearing Gordon lightfoots song, everything about the Fitzgerald is fascinating to me. I have a framed picture of the Fitzgerald that was of her in the storm and I’ll never leave it behind. I could listen to captain walton talk for hours about the Fitzgerald
The story of the Fitzgerald fascinates folks from all over the world, and I can see why you'd never part with your framed pic of the Mighty Fitz; it's a keeper! Thanks for your feedback and sharing your thoughts here. Capt. Darrell is America's Captain! HMM
Thank you, Don. This was a really great video! I've had a long-held fascination for the Edmund, and I'm watching it on this, the 47th Anniversary of the tragedy. We never forget.
In my most humble and unimportant opinion, I concur with your opinions entirely. I have always subscribed to Cptn. Bernie Cooper's thoughts & opinions on the matter - mostly because he was there. He said he could see the EF on his radar, & that sailing blind (with both radars out) and in whiteout conditions, the EF was right over Six Fathom Shoal. Also, Cptn. McSorley's charts were 100 years old, & later surveys had showed the Shoal to be situated 1 mile further to the East of Caribou Island than McSorley's charts showed them to be. I think there's quite some significance in that singular detail. Investigators said there was no evidence that the EF ever touched the shoals, but along with Cptn. Cooper I have no choice but to disagree that she bottomed out. Loaded with 26k tons, she didn't need to hit bottom very hard to have done a significant amount of damage. The fact that McSorley had reported his railings as being down is a good indication of major structural damage, and he reported this to Cptn. Cooper shortly after passing by Caribou Island & Six Fathom Shoal. I don't think it's any mere coincidence. The upturned stern section of the hull may not show any evidence that she bottomed out on the shoal - but that section consists of less than 200 feet of her overall length of 729 feet, and as it's impossible to see the bottom of the 500 feet of her forward section - so that theory just doesn't fly with me. Cptn. Cooper believed that the EF was sinking from that moment on, and McSorley's reports that they were taking on water though the pumps were working, and they'd had developed a steep list. He'd lost a couple of vent covers, but they led to the gangways - not to the hold. The EF was beginning to ride lower and lower in the water, so they were losing buoyancy and taking longer to recover every time the large seas pushed them down.
Based on much research I've formed a vivid mental visualisation of how this tragedy unfolded.... I can't even begin to imagine the sheer terror taking over on the bridge each time she went under, nor the sheer relief each time it popped back up..taking moments longer between each one as the EF settled lower..and lower into the water. They would have been existing between each submersion on pure hope - just 15 more miles of pure hope. Much less can I imagine the sheer terror they felt in that moment when they realised that they weren't coming up this time..... My God!
The wreck shows that the two hatch covers directly behind the pilothouse (#20 & #21) are INSIDE THE HOLD, beaten into 'V' shapes.. Now how in heck do you suppose THAT happened? Jusst ONE cubic metre of water weighs one metric ton! So In my mind's eye, when those two (or three?) big rollers that Cptn. Cooper described caught up to the EF a few minutes later and hit her from behind, they would have rolled right up on her spar deck, crushing the EF under the force of tens of thousands of tons of water, and slammed right into the back of the pilothouse with catastrophic force. It would have very likely smashed the hatch-covers numbers 20 & 21 down into the hold (as they are seen on the wreck), and pushed her whole bow nose-down - and with sufficient buoyancy lost, she was not coming up this time... and that pilothouse would never see daylight ever again. ride that experts have estimated that it would have taken just 10 seconds from the surface to the bottom, 530 feet below.
In the opinion of Cptn Cooper, the demise of the EF "was sudden and catastrophic".. He also believed that "she took a nose-dive", and the wreckage is proof of that. The damage to the ship's bow is indicative of a headlong nose-dive - straight into the rocky bottom of The Big Lake.
I've often ventured into contemplations of what went through the minds of those poor men in the pilothouse at this point....
Exactly when did they realise that all hope of safe harbour had run out for them? At what point did the realisation hit them that they really weren't coming back up this time? Certainly SOMEONE realised that they were going down, because SOMEONE made it to the pilothouse door and managed to open it and even dogged it down... There's no way that it was left open and dogged whilst they were under way! My minds eye ventures still further into those few split seconds as the EF took her final plunge into the icy depths... They KNEW that they were going down, and i imagine that some would have tried to run for the door..while others would have remained firmly rooted to the spot in fear, their faces lit only by the pilothouse lights and instrument panels - and with every foot deeper they drscended into darkness, the pressure inside the pilothouse would have instantly risen to an unbearable, unbreathable crush - as the outside water pressure built up against the glass windows, causing the freezing lake-water to come smashing on through the pilothouse and sweeping them all, except for one, into the path of least resistance - down, down the stairs into the corridor behind the pilothouse... It's just.. Incomprehensible. It haunts me wondering which came first - the crushing inside pressure as they nose-dived down through 100 feet, 200 feet, 300 feet and to the point far beyond all human endurance.... or did the frigid waters come smashing through the pilothouse windows first ...? It haunts me, and I can only hope and pray that it was mercifully quick for all of them....
But I also give a substantial amount of headspace to the fact that the lake in that particular spot is 530 feet deep - whereas the EF was 729 feet long...so when her bow was smashing into the rocky lake bottom, at least 200 feet of her stern was still on the surface, whilst the weight of 26,000 tons of taconite (which now weighed thousands of tons more with the hold filled with water) would have driven the bow into the bottom faster than a speeding freight train, and begun tearing the superstructure apart. Added to this, the EF was still under full propulsion - driven by a 5,600kw Westinghouse powerplant tha was still spinning the shaft to its massive 19.5 foot propeller - that's a whopping 5.6 METERS! And I concur with you again here, Don - that with her bow on the bottom, and 200 feet of her stern still on the surface, that sheer weight (which was still under full propulsion) had to cause her superstructure to begin breaking up on the surface. I'm no engineer, but I believe that the massive amount of sheer torque to the still-spinning shaft under full steam would have caused the stern section to flip upside down as it ripped away from the nose-down bow section, and fully separating on it's way down and thereby dumping the 26k ton cargo in a massive pile between the two sections as the stern came to finally rest on the bottom.
Furthermore, it was no secret that EF "had issues". Cptn McSorley has been quoted as saying that it actually scared him when The Fitz "did this wriggling thing" in big seas when she would twist in a way that wasn't considered characteristic of being 'normal'. I also once found a statement that said the EF's maintenance records showed that every time she was laid up the keelsons had to be rewelded - "like as if her skin was too big for her"..which may very well explain that "wriggling thing" which Cptn. McSorley spoke of. She was repeatedly overloaded and several crewmen who'd worked on her later said that they were loathe to go below decks when she was underway. So yes, there were known 'issues' - but yet again I concur that had her summer load-lines not been enforced so late in the season, then The Mighty Fitz may very well still be plying her cargo across the Great Lakes - in which case we would not be having this discussion. But 'ifs, buts and maybes' are pointless.
Of course, these are just my opinion, based on everything that is possible to research on the subject, combined with my own vivid imagination and how I mentally visualise her demise. And as you say, how the EF came to be where she is doesn't really matter now. But I do think that the conclusions of the official investigation's were wrong. However, it is what it is and no amount of research or speculation can change the fact that 29 lives were lost under these tragic circumstances.
Their loss of the EF had a massive impact on the entire region and the industry itself, whilst the psychological effects were felt far and wide..The sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald is, and always will be cause for much deliberation and inevitable disagreement.
But on a personal and human level, each one of those 29 men all had families and friends who loved them, and who still mourn their loss. That's why it's so important to commemorate the Anniversary each year, to perpetuate their legacies, and to remember all of their devastated families in prayer.
May the 29 souls who were lost on the Edmund Fitzgerald Rest in Peace, and let those who loved them find comfort and solace in their grief. Amen.
Thankyou for a beautiful reply!
Excellent reply! However, the vents were for the 'Ballast Tanks". I feel that is where the breach occurred.
@@darrellwalton938
Hi Darrell, thank you - and thanks for the information and correction about the vents leading to the ballast tanks : ) It was explained to me that they had led to the gangways, and that they allow the sailors to traverse the length of the ship below decks, but perhaps that was incorrect? I was hoping that you might kindly explain how that works and why the ballast tanks require ventilation so that I can try to better understand it? That would be greatly appreciated - thank you! But I should say that anyway my main purpose for including this info about the vents was that so many people seem to be under the impression that the vents led to the hold, & therefore had contributed to flooding in the jog -
This was well done! Always appreciate information on the Edmond Fitzgerald!
Thanks...you're welcome! HMM
A few of my late friend's served on submarines in WW2, in the Mediterranean. She is known for violent heavy storms. In one case a sub was 90 feet underwater and suffered damage from the storms effect. For some reason the captain ordered the sub to surface. He and the first officer were washed overboard and the sub almost sank. The conning tower was full of water and it poured into the sub, one crewman closed the hatch in time. The sub was badly damaged with fittings torn from the sides, crewmen hurt and knocked unconscious.... 90 feet underwater. Never under estimate the fury of the sea.
My late uncle served on the arctic convoys, he saw ship's dissappear in 10-15 seconds, they would hit a huge wave bow on....... gone forever.
God bless all men who go to sea.
Interesting commentary; thanks for sharing it here, John. HMM
Or in the Air...
That is one of the best videos i have seen on the the fitzgerald and very powerful. Without a doubt mr walton is the 30th Victim of that awful tragedy. Dealing PTSD is a battle of its own. I live in northern ireland and due to the troubles having a father in the RUC i still im fighting against PTSD today. This video is a wonderful tribute to the walton family . My thoughts ans prayers are with you. RIP 30 men of the Big Fitz legend lives on .
Thanks for that Wayne. I hope you'll take the time to watch the first video I did on the Fitz...to complete the story. There is a lost Fitz crew member by the last name of Rafferty. Thanks for watching! HMM
Are we related. Rafferty here.
My brother's were fishermen. We lived in Detroit, but they fished out of Bradenton Beach FL and somewhere in Alaska. They knew, and had drinks with, one of the crew of Andrea Gail. The stories they told, fascinating to hear. It was so enjoyable listening to this captain today on this show...I love everything about him. There's just something so awesome about men who go out to sea. Thank you for sharing today, and I'm glad the bell was finally rung for your father.
Thanks Sandra; I appreciate you sharing your thoughts here. Capt. Darrell is easy to love! Thanks for watching and remembering the brave men you referenced. HMM
My husband is a tow boat pilot. He runs the Mississippi River. A few years ago, three men were lost in the Mississippi near New Orleans. The water was so deep, they couldn't retrieve them from their sunken boat. To my knowledge, they never did recover the bodies. I don't think I ever really worried about something serious happening to my husband until then. He's been on the river for 30 years. I pray for the families of all who are lost and never recovered on rivers, lakes and in the oceans. It has to be so hard not to have your loved one back.
Thanks for sharing your stories here...so interesting. I always wanted to work the Mississippi River and her connecting tributaries. I worked the Great Lakes but not the rivers. For me, there is an attractive Mark Twain-Tom Sawyer-Huck Finn magical appeal to the Mighty Mississippi. Sure wish I could have had that experience. I wonder if your husband knows my good friend Captain Randy Williams; he's been a towboat Captain on the Mississippi for years. Thanks for watching...HMM
why do I watch these documentaries ...
my heart is broken for everyone
dear LORD
Have mercy on the crew of the Edmund Fitzgerald and their families
RIP
It is heartbreaking; but I want them to be remembered. Thanks for taking the time to watch. HMM
This was so much fun to watch. It was great to listen to Captain Walton tell all these great stories.
Personally, I think part of the story that people don't know much about is that the Fitzgerald was at Sturgeon Bay up in Duluth for an emergency repair job right before all of this happened. Apparently it was suppose to come back and get work done. Unfortunately that never happened. That keel was always a problem, and I think that the waves pushed the Fitzgerald down, and then the waves were able to snap it in half. For all we know, those welds weren't strong enough, and the Fitzgerald didn't stand a chance.
May all the men that were lost rest peacefully
Thanks Shawn. I wasn't aware of that emergency repair...thanks for sharing that. More with Capt. Darrell on the way...HMM
You're welcome @HistoryMysteryMan . I remember watching a video that said the keel was loose, and that it had an emergency stop at Sturgeon Bay right before all of this happened, and that there's a shipyard that to this day has one inch plates that say "Edmund Fitzgerald." Even the chef that was replaced by Rafferty before the trip said the keel was loose, and that McSorley beat the heck out of the Fitzgerald. Both her and the Homer had weak keels and they both had flaws in their designs. I think they had a stress fracture of the hull that eventually cracked under pressure from the waves. That explains as to why the most recent sonar scan showed it was in rough shape. Goes to show the terrifying nature of Lake Superior
I have also heard discussion on the Fitz's weak keel. Biggest thing to me is that the Fitz only had 3 cargo holds, so less bulkheads that crossed the keel. It was made for ease of loading but ultimately it made the ship vulnerable. Thanks again, sir...@@shawndavis8438
@HistoryMysteryMan you're welcome, sir. Personally, I think that the Fitzgerald was unfortunately doomed from the start. In fact, there's a video that had a gentleman by the name of Tugboat Jim, who knew Ronnie Roman, who was on the Anderson the night the Fitzgerald went down. And everyone knew that her keel was loose, and that it was abused. My theory is the waves basically made the Fitzgerald dive like a submarine, and it landed with so much force, that it snapped liked a pencil. Like Capt. Darrell said, they don't want anyone to know the truth because they don't want to held liable. They knew the ship was in bad shape. I hope for the sake of the families, they are able to find closure
Thanks again, Shawn; I'm going to have to look for that video. I wonder if Ronnie Roman is still alive!@@shawndavis8438
Thanks man I appreciate your hard work.
You're welcome Joel...Thanks...HMM
A movie needs to be made of this event.
I'd buy a ticket...thanks. HMM
I work at Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Company in Downtown Milwaukee...been there almost 35 years now. NML was started in 1857. That picture you show of Edmund Fitzgerald is on the 8th floor of our majestic South Office Building (with the huge Greek columns) built in 1914. All of our past Company President & CEOs are displayed in huge paintings in the hallway up there. I work on the 1st floor - just West of our gorgeous marbled and gold-Greek-themed Lobby. I believe our Board of Trustees at the time, bought the ship as an investment, and in honor of Edmund, named it after him and told him at one of the Board Meetings. I heard he was a very humble Irish Catholic man and was very flattered and almost embarrassed somewhat to get all that attention. I heard he was truly devastated when the ship went down and didn't like to talk about it since it was so heartbreaking to him and all the families who lost loved ones. Northwestern Mutual is a wonderful company. I've always felt so honored and privileged to be working there and pray I can retire from NML someday as well. I've always been fascinated by anything and everything I can learn about this ship and the unfortunate tragedy. I usually end up crying too every time I hear the Gordon Lightfoot song. For some reason, I've always felt so connected to this and I'm not quite sure why? Thank you for this video Sir! Much appreciated!!! 😊
Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts here. You brought in a personal side I had not thought about...the namesake and the company behind it. I think it's awesome that you have the high level of respect for the NMLIC that you do...sounds like a gorgeous building! Thanks for watching and remembering the Mighty Fitz and her crew. HMM
I have to echo your interviewee's query--why on earth was the ship named for another ship that sank? Is it possible they didn't know there was an earlier ship of that name?
@@karenryder6317 That's a good question, and I have no idea why it happened...but it's worth investigating. Thanks for your continued support. HMM
I remember well when the loss of the Edmund Fitzgerald was announced in the news and it was such a tragic event. The tribute song Gordon Lightfoot sang about this ship and its crew will long recall the sinking and the souls who were taken. God bless these men, their loved ones and friends.🙏
Thanks Ronald...for remembering the Mighty Fitz and her crew. HMM
@@HistoryMysteryMan you are welcome and keep up the good work, my friend 🙏🙏🙏
@@ronaldbell3788 Thanks, Sir...HMM
Absolutely loved the videos! Captain Walton knows his stuff as well as Captain Cooper! I’ve believed for some time that the Fitzgerald bottomed on Caribou shoal. It’s the only thing that makes sense. There is a video interview with captain cooper from years ago and he said the same thing as Captain Walton. Your videos are the best and most informative on this subject.
Thanks for the great compliments Dave...so appreciated! HMM
I love this guy and his honesty. I believe his truth about this tragedy
I'm with you Peggy...Capt. Darrell is awesome...and I believe he is also correct on his conclusions. Thanks again...HMM
So glad you posted these fascinating pieces of that mystery. Always learn so much from your brilliance!
In fairness...probably more of a passion than brilliance. Thanks for the nice compliment, Ave...HMM
Hello Sir! You've done a wonderful job on the original and this sequel. Thank you, especially for putting faces to the sailors who perished. Likewise, being able to see photos of those lost humanizes this tragedy and makes it more powerful for me. I also appreciate that you give Mr. Walton free rein to talk without constantly interrupting him, something many interviewers need to learn. Your delivery is so good you could do this professionally! Looking forward to more.
Thanks; I appreciate your kind words. I sure would like to step up my production a notch or two. Just me, a cell phone and a laptop. Thanks for your support! HMM
Love all things Fitzgerald, right up there with the D B Cooper mystery! May the good Lord rest those 29 souls.
Thanks...yeah that DB Cooper story is beyond mind-boggling. HMM
A thanks to Capt Walton for sharing his knowledge and views. Those of us who have never been there can argue until the day is done, but those who have been there have that intuition, the experience in time and place, to really feel the moment. Most of them know, in their heart like his father did, what the truth may be, because they truly understand it. The Fitz was built to be a legend, and in that she succeeded beyond what anyone ever believed it could be. God bless the 29 aboard and those left behind.
Thanks again Chris. No doubt, Captain Walton really made the video...so interesting, insightful and colorful. Thanks for watching...HMM
And the greedy steel barons, sit in their ivory towers, while good men die, and they never lose a thing except their profits, and the insurance scam is played, so losses are either compensated, or at least minimalized. The vessel should have been in dry dock at least a year earlier, but there again, profits must be made! Tightwads were loathe to pay for maintenance. Thank you for covering this. My heart has hurt ever since I first saw it covered on our local news, when it happened.
Interesting perspective...thanks for sharing it here. HMM
So fascinating. I've learned so much from these interviews regarding the Fitz.
Thanks for your support Susan...HMM
I call him "the Harley guy" to my friends I've shared your two parts with. I'm big on history too but including the Civil War & WW II. But when the Harley guy (emblem on his T-shirt) gave you that piece of rope, I know that made your hard work all worthwhile! Another big Thank You! Well done! I subbed after your part one & hope my pals did too!
Thanks Bill; I appreciate your support...HMM
I was in 9th grade Algonac High sitting in Social Studies when we heard the Edmund Fitzgerald had gone down. It has stayed with me all these years. Thank you for this. The Freighters going up and down the St. Clair River always fascinated me.
Oh I know...the big ships are so much fun to watch up and down the St. Clair. Thanks for remembering the Mighty Fitz and her crew. HMM
Mystery Man, I wish there were “history teachers” with your love of history. You are very talented, a true gift.
Thanks Mark. For a history geek like me, that's a huge compliment, and I appreciate it fully. Thanks for checking out the video. HMM
That's one thing about Michigan, especially right on the lakes...a saying we have in Michigan is "If you don't like the weather, wait ten minutes, because it's GONMA change". Weather on the Great Lakes changes literally minute to minute sometimes.
And that weather changed in the wrong direction for the Fitz. RIP men...HMM
From Sandusky Ohio . What an excellent documentary. Enjoyed every minute. Thanks for all of your hard work in bringing this to light. Darrell and his family are the salt of the earth. Again thanks.
Thanks Mark. You said it best...Capt. Darrell...the salt of the earth. Thanks for watching! HMM
Thank you for these videos with so much information. I know my opinion doesn't matter much but in all that I've see ln about the Fitz, the fact she was about 200 feet longer than the water is deep, I can't help but think her bow hit bottom while the stern was still on the surface. I think this simply because Mcsorley wasn't able to get a call out...and I think he was probably right there at the radio because he was talking to the Anderson. I think the bow plowed into a wave and due to the flooding, the bow was forced to the bottom pretty much instantaneously, blew the windows out and it was over so fast he had no time to call out. The impact with the bottom broke her back and the momentum of the propeller flipped the stern over where it ended up. I am as sad about the Fitzgerald as I am about the Titanic. Every time I hear about or watch a documentary about ships sinking with people on board, it breaks my heart. Thanks again
Thanks for your post, Wayne; I really enjoyed reading it. Everything you say makes perfect sense. The Fitz and the Titanic are heart-breaking stories for sure. HMM
@@HistoryMysteryMan every time I see documentaries on any ship, especially with loss of life, its heartbreaking. The Lusitania was another one. I know it was sunk during WW1 but I find it hard to believe any person could hit a ship like that with a torpedo knowing the loss of life would probably be huge. I just think that that submarine captain had a lot to answer for on his judgement day.
@@waynejones3999 And that judgement day will come. Thanks for your support, Wayne. HMM
there are radios in the back and allover the ship
I grew up in Duluth, MN. The EF went down when I was in high school. We took it very hard as some of us knew crew members.
Thanks for remembering the Mighty Fitz and her crew. HMM
there were like 13 crewman from Ohio and and 7-8 from Wisconcin
What a shame that money, it seems, is preventing an investigation from the structure of the boat itself. Thanks for independent investigation and the thoughtful analysis of the best facts that are available. And the courage to tell us your opinion.
You're welcome Sean; thanks for watching...HMM
I think your assessment of the failure of the ship is certainly reasonable. We know that the Carl D. Bradley broke in half and we also know that the huge waves cause any ship to sag and hog and the extra weight of the water in the hold (which could have been caused by banging a shoal) could very quickly exceed the maximum weight that the hull could bear.
Once she got enough water in her hold (however it got there) she was doomed, especially in such a tremendous storm.
Working a Merchant Mariner is not for the faint of heart, it's only June one month out of the year and it only takes ONE November storm to end you.
Well said, Mellissa. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts here; thanks for watching. HMM
Thanks Don!! Love your work. Keep em coming down here in Georgia.
Thank you so ever much..well done.. looking forward to more.
Thank you Peggy! I really appreciate that. Stop by anytime...HMM
Back when men We're men, Lord be with them
Darryl is a great raconteur. Thanks for these videos!
You're welcome! Capt. D is the best! HMM
I grew up in Michigan, and was always interested in this but could never find anything that told me what happened.( remember I was a punk kid back then) I find it very interesting that more and more keeps coming out about this. The never really stays hidden but it might take a long time to come out. Thanks for the time and effort you put into this, I know it takes a lot of time on the back side to get all this done.
You're welcome; thanks for taking the time to watch...HMM
You have produced a very well done video! Thank you. Thanks to Captain D. Walton for sharing his detailed insights on the Fitz tragedy. And to all of the Edmund Fitzgerald seaman who perished that fateful day: R. I. P.
Thanks...and especially for remembering the Mighty Fitz and her crew. HMM
Thanks for your video my friend!
This is a story that has long fascinated me, as I’ve also visited the white fish bay museum, and just like you, I feel like there’s more to know about it’s story. Thanks for sharing Bruce
You're welcome Bruce...thanks for watching. HMM
Excellent job!!!
Wow you have a piece of rope from the Fritz after she went down how cool is that!!!
Pretty damn cool! Thanks for watching Richard; I appreciate you...HMM
My sister and I sailed across Nantucket Sound in a small ferry, when the Captain ran into rough water. The waves increased until the water rose over the ship!!! My sister & I stayed out side by hooking our elbows along the outside rails. The ship sputtered and sputtered. The ship rose and fell into troughs. Flying into the air, crashing into the troughs!! Oh my gawd! The rain fell, the wind lashed. We remained outside. All the tourists were inside ...SICK!! SICK! SICK!! but we are hearty fish wives & not afraid of the sea. Crazy Then the sky cleared, and the sea swells surrendered and calmed. WHATA TRIP!! My sister and I were banned from the Harwich ferry for the rest of the season! Ah! Nantucket, at last!
That's a great story! Thanks for sharing it here. I spent many sea sick days on the Great Lake tug I worked on...took a while to get over it. HMM
Great Crew and a Great ship.I’m from Toledo as well. Missing some Packo’s on Front St.Great video.
From a Toledoan to another...thanks! HMM
Wonderful, sad and heartfelt. Thank You again.
You're welcome, again...thanks! HMM
Years before the Edmund Fitzgerald sank, there was a French ship that went down in the same area. Some people claim the body is from the Edmund Fitzgerald and some claim the body is from the French ship.
Also
There are storms I've been through when we've secured a wheelhouse door open to make it easier to hear what is happening outside the wheelhouse on the ship or a horn from another ship.
That said though, I'm a saltwater sailor and have never worked the great lakes.
You've done a great job on the Edmund Fitzgerald Don!
Interesting...never knew about the French ship. Makes perfect sense on dogging the pilot house doors open to help hear your surroundings. Thanks for your compliment...greatly appreciated. HMM
Absolutely another amazing edit. Thanks again for all your efforts!!! Cheers from Manitoulin Island
Thanks again, sir...so appreciated...HMM
Touching interview. If only they had laid up a day. US Weather service and canadian charts failed miserably.
So many different variables went into the sinking of the Mighty Fitz. Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts here...HMM
Lots of interesting tidbits of knowledge to be learned by listening to Capt Darrell. 👍
Captain Darrell rocks! Thanks...HMM
What always fascinated me is that the Fitz was running both bilge pumps. Each pump was capable of moving 7000 gallons of water per minute. So, for her to be sinking, she was taking on more than 14,000 gallons per minute.
OUCH!
That's a great observation I never realized that, or thought of it that way. Thanks for sharing that here. Mickey Phillips. HMM
Absolutely the most informative video with credible knowledge yet. Thank you for the research and love shown for The Big Fitz and crew. On the morning of the 10th, I left the firehouse after a 24 hour shift, went and bought flowers and placed them in the water at Jones Island near the spot she was photographed on it's only known visit to the city that adorned her stearn. Learning about the summer and winter load lines is fascinating new information. Also a huge thank you to Captain Walden for his sharing of knowledge and truth on the matter.
Thanks Jim. I love your story...placing flowers in the water at Jones Island...that's so honorable. Thanks for watching; I appreciate you. HMM
Love this video! It feels funny to say that because in the end it really is a tragic story but the love comes from the honor you've shown those men. A real tribute. Thank you. The Captain is an absolute treasure!
Thanks for watching...and thanks for remembering the Mighty Fitz and her crew! HMM
What a very fascinating story, thank you for the video.
You're welcome; make sure you watch the first one on the Fitz...published Nov. 5...thanks. HMM
it really is a shame that she went down with all hands. very sad indeed
This follow up has been very bit as good as part one thanks for the work you’ve put into it
Thanks Alan..l appreciate you...HMM
Excellent Work!! You have a great persona for these most interesting videos.. Thanks.
Thanks Loren...super nice compliment. #Grateful...HMM
Very nicely done tributes. Fascinating, learned lots of new things!
Thanks Jay...HMM
YOU are the real goods.......Liiving in old fishing lodge........ on batchawana bay....saw huge waves destroy our place,,,,,100 foot logs driven into Gros Cap cliffs...150 feet above the lake line...the second wave that sunk the Fitz was that big...hell yah We was there.......namaste to all the crew lost....Finnster
Great work on the video, enjoy the conversations, and the faces of the crew and their memories,
Thanks Mario...greatly appreciated. HMM
@@HistoryMysteryMan I work on the intracoastal and western rivers, we get some rough weather out here also, nothing comes close to what happens on the great lakes, remembering the names is a great way to honor the sailors out here, look forward to going to the museum, it's on my bucket list, God bless
@@marioparedes4936 Thanks Mario; I appreciate your kind words...HMM
I was born and raised in Toledo. Shoreland and Point Place. This shipwreck always haunted me. Thank you for the video...
You're welcome. I am also from Toledo...grew up on Ketukkee (off Shoreland Dr.) for a time when I was a kid. Thanks for watching...HMM
@@HistoryMysteryMan I went to Shoreland. I think they're tearing it down and rebuilding it.
@@kimberlyevans9637 I went to Shoreland for the 5th grade. Hate to see the old building go...wish they would just preserve it.
Great video, sir. Thank you. Absolutely that gentleman is the 30th person lost.
Sadly, I imagine many people who lived long after the sinking were "lost." Lives irreparably changed due to the tragic loss of a loved one. These events affect so many.
I didn't know the Fitzgerald had so many structural issues. This and the Coast Guards allowance of running summer loads in November frustrates me.
Great history. Please keep producing!
Good point on all the relatives and the lifelong pain they have endured. Thanks for your support...and thanks for watching. HMM