Standoff. Standoff. Standoff. If you want to hide from thermal you need to be behind the camouflage and there needs to be sufficient standoff that your body does jot warm the camouflage up. Umbrellas seem to work. I'd be intrigued to see someone build a mylar backed camouflage net ststem that popped up like a tent or hunting blind. I bet that would be awesome.
@@DuRöhre4711 There is a mirror based hunting blind on the market, it reflects the ground so it's just going to blend in with whatever temp the ground vegetation is, which should blend in with the background perfectly.
@@LarsLarsen77 No, you will see it on the thermal camera. All of these so called thermal camouflage tests are done with low cost unit's with relatively low resolution and high NETD. If you use an umbrella to shield yourself, the camera will see an umbrella or the outlines of it. Any drone operator or seasoned thermal camera user will draw it's conclusions. Also, thermal cameras in that wavelength can't see through glas, it will act as a mirror. So it's pretty obvious that something is going on. Same with mylar blankets etc. To truly hide from thermal cameras, you will have to hide where you can't be seen. Plain and simple. There is no Harry Potter's cloak that will magically make you dissappear. Not from night vision and not from thermal.
1. Cats rule the internets. 2. cats have insulating furr of many different lengths, so a first check of contrast spectrum and resolution of the new thermal is easy done with a Mk1 house cat, checking on a tree or neighbours wall with your new binoculars or lens for sharpness and colour bleeding. similar to rendering the standard teapot or furmark for a new GPU or your known hill or supermarket parking lot for acceleration and break tests after the first snow has fallen.
Mylar blanket + a can of Dollar Tree spray glue is gilley suit in a can. Just spray 1 side and roll it in the local flora. Works on umbrellas and your other gear too
At 01:00 - Most people don't realise that as long as the device is being scanned around at least slightly, your brain will combine the stream of images into an apparently "higher resolution than it should be" video. A similar effect can be seen if you look for videos of "Logie Baird TV" and realise just how good only 32 video lines can seem, as long as either the subject or the camera is moving around a bit.
Idk if there's reputable scientific evidence for that but am going to believe it anyhow, at least until such time I can afford a high end thermal scope.
@@franknobleID there is plenty of evidence, the human brain, similar to predator animals, is very efficient in detecting movmements and colours that dont belong in environments (like the red/orange/blue on greyscale). There are also experiments with driving along a fence where your brain creates and unobstructed image from the gaps in the fence. Or just sample down a sharp video of animals and humans in front of trees etc. As long as the move and the camera is still, it looks like a higher resolution, similar to stationary objects and a moving cameras.
I did some reading on the topic of thermal camouflage, and I think I have a pretty decent idea of how to do it. You need to have the exterior of the material be close to ambient temperature while isolating it from body heat. If you want to take advantage of different fabrics, you'll need to layer. The interior should contain an IR opaque layer that is a poor thermal conductor - perhaps just a thick fiber, or some sort of IR reflective sandwich. If you use a reflective material, you should probably insulate both sides of it, to negate the visibility of its reflections and isolate the outer layer. The outer layer should probably be some sort of ventilated mesh, maybe separate layers of increasingly thinner mesh. This will adopt ambient temperature because of the ventilation. This actually does provide some insulation, as you can buy netted base layers which perform well in cold climates. It may be interesting to try and find some way to ventilate the interior layer in a convenient direction. With time, anything worn will heat up as you demonstrated, and start to stand out. Also, consider the effect of color; black apparently is the best absorber of IR. However, that doesn't mean the entire outfit should be black, as this would probably silhouette on IR. However, it may provide some signature reduction in areas that are going to be ventilating warm air
You're right-the human body is always going to be giving off heat (if it's alive) so the job of the thermal camo is either to diffuse that heat evenly and slowly, or keep it all in for short periods of time. I also wondered if a cold thermal mass could be carried inside the thermal cloak as a heat sink, or if that would be getting too complicated.
3:28 it's not the diameter of the lens that dictates its field of view, it's focal length (for given sensor size of course; with larger sensors FOV would be bigger with the same focal length); aperture is irrelevant in that regard. Those long wave infrared sensors are not that sensitive (compared to modern visible light ones for example), so they need very "fast" optics, something like f/2 or even faster to work effectively, and if you increase the focal length, lens diameter must also go up for it to still be fast enough, but it's for light gathering purposes and doesn't affect the FOV. You can't just increase the focal length without making the lens bigger, because it would make everything darker, and eventually the sensor would not be able to pick up any useful signal at all.
Thanks, I realized that after the video. It just so happens that the focal length appears to my eye to match the overall size of the lens. Not a camera guy or I would have known that
@@CivilDefenseEngineer looking at the curvature of those lenses, it might as well be that those are indeed f/1 (so focal lenght = aperture) or something close to that.
anything large enough to cover (not touching) your body. and the side pointed to the thermal cam is the same temp as things around it will hide you to a point. then there is night vision to confound.
Later down the road i plan on making a watch tower to snipe coyotes at night on my reservation to protect my moms animals. Ive been trying to find the cheapest ones but i didnt know how deep and complex this actually was. Awesome video by the way and thanks. Any extra info helps, cheers from AZ
I have one of those handheld spotting Scopes I figure if I can see them that's good enough I can tell if I need to engage you have a hand free for pistol or if they're too harden you evade or ambush later been having thermals that aren't part of a rifle platform for helmet platform is still much better than nothing in my opinion, right?
I would like to, but I don't have access to a lot of devices (yet). For now I'm focusing on experimenting with reducing thermal signature. The Night Vision Guys have some good videos comparing options. I don't know how unbiased they are considering they sell the thermals. They called the 256 resolution Rattler V2 a "sub-entry-level" offering, I felt poor when they said that.
Great video! I just watched a short from some military tactical team and their top thermal blocker was... an umbrella lol. Anyways, sorry for the n00b question, and I'll probably looks this up later, yet what's the difference between what you have and FLIR? Is one better than the other? Perhaps you could do a video on it. Thanks!
Great question! FLIR is a name brand, like kleenex or bandaid. FLIR got bought by Teledyne Brown not too long ago. But yeah, what I have is a thermal imaging device, just like a FLIR but cheaper.
@@CivilDefenseEngineer Oh goodness, I did look up my watch history and it jogged my memory of FLIR and Pulsar. One day I'll get one... I hope you'll have fun with yours! Thanks again!
A device I use for checking Thermal is SEEK Thermal. It is very small, you hook it up to your phone or iPad. Been quite surprised at what gets picked up my back yard.
Honestly I would not bet my life on it holding zero. Fortunately it is SUPER easy to zero, and you can do it in one or two shots. I should have included that in the video, but I am working on a follow up video(s).
Thanks for the tip. At a glance, they look to be outside my budget at the moment. If this channel takes off and I can start monetizing, I will funnel all proceeds into more things to test for the channel!
How do you like the proprietary battery on the v2 ? I loooooove agm thermals I have the ts35 384 but the original version with replaceable batteries and have a bat pack battery extender that lets me run 2x16650's I heard the resolution on the v2 is better though I just cant get over proprietary batteries
The proprietary battery gets 10 hours of run time, or 9 when it's cold out. It comes with two batteries, but I plan on getting plenty of extra. I don't have a problem with it, but versatility would be nice.
@CivilDefenseEngineer I suspect it would last briefly if in contact with your body. Might even be better as a sandwich: thin wool blanket, mylar space blanket, outer thin wool blanket. The big problem is summer. How comfy it would be in 70 to 90 degree temps to throw a woolen blanket over yourself! I've also wondered about modifications to ghillie suits or the looser ghillie viper hood plus ghillie cap. Maybe a thin removable wool liner with or without a mylar barrier. Loose fitting with minimized body contact points.
NVG is the cheap option, you're showing $2k monocle, I've got a $50 Korean monocle, and it is good enough to spot varmints and treepassers. It's not thermal, of course, but it does the job at night.
It is IR illuminated video. It looks like the model is up to $99 but it is much more functional than the one I have, much better resolution, and endogenous battery instead of AA batteries. It has a 25mm lens, equipped with 850 nm IR illuminator and good vision out to at least 100 yards.
Imagine a civil disturbance -without passable road ways, AKA TCP. Chainsaw first. Kinda like security radiating out from each community. Name and purpose, please step off to the side.
I just bought the agm 19-256. Kinda wanted it for multiple reasons. Hunting, tracking and obviously threat detection. I just need to see a threat before it sees me so i can run my 195lb ass the fuck away. This does that nice. The fact that i can strap it to multiple different guns as a scope is just the cherry on top. Most the time it lives in a pouch on my hunting gear so i can try to see game thru dense woods that usually deer just blend in and u necer even see. Def works for me. Plus with veteran discount it was barely over $700
Ok there is no hiding from thermal The only way to hide is to fool the operator of the thermal into thinking you are not what theyre looking for as AI comes online this will become even more difficult Everyones looking for an invisibility cloak and doing unrealistic non field employable things that greatly hinder the shoot move communicate thing that we are all trying to be good at Mask some of your thermal signature that should be the goal, then use "terrain" from METT-TC to stop gap the rest. Thermal cant see through hills or through thick tree cover.
Yeah, I'm highly skeptical of this "just use an umbrella, bro" idea many are commenting. That would be an awkward item to add to your kit for not a lot of benefit.
The umbrella will still not blend in to the back ground heat radiation. People do not understand how to counter thermal while also remaining hidden to the mk1 eyeball or from both NV and thermal They get wrapped around the axle thinking too intently on being invisible to thermal all while making themselves more visible to other observation methods.
Always been super disappointed by agm stuff, now everyone says they’re good all of a sudden? I guess it’s time to spend another 1800$ to figure out if they actually are finally decent
Hold on, now, this video wasn't meant to be a review of AGM specifically. I didn't compare it with any other options because this was the only device I had.
from what are y'all about to defend yourselfs, lmao, 50bmgs, 20mm antitanks, all varieties of ammo and vests, NV goggles and thermals, you can invade a continent using your "home defense" hilarious
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cant wait to see you come up with low cost thermal anti detection
Umbrella seem to be the way to go
space blanket or UV flashlight to defeat most cameras as well
@@thepioneer6178what about a wearable umbrella basically tight fabric panels mounted on stand offs from your uniform below?
I spray glued a few layers of survival blanket to a tarp and works pretty okay through entry level thermal monocular.
Maybe he will perfect the thermal smoke grenade.
Standoff. Standoff. Standoff. If you want to hide from thermal you need to be behind the camouflage and there needs to be sufficient standoff that your body does jot warm the camouflage up.
Umbrellas seem to work. I'd be intrigued to see someone build a mylar backed camouflage net ststem that popped up like a tent or hunting blind. I bet that would be awesome.
You will clearly see the outer contour of that shelter...
@@DuRöhre4711 There is a mirror based hunting blind on the market, it reflects the ground so it's just going to blend in with whatever temp the ground vegetation is, which should blend in with the background perfectly.
@@LarsLarsen77 No, you will see it on the thermal camera. All of these so called thermal camouflage tests are done with low cost unit's with relatively low resolution and high NETD. If you use an umbrella to shield yourself, the camera will see an umbrella or the outlines of it. Any drone operator or seasoned thermal camera user will draw it's conclusions. Also, thermal cameras in that wavelength can't see through glas, it will act as a mirror. So it's pretty obvious that something is going on. Same with mylar blankets etc. To truly hide from thermal cameras, you will have to hide where you can't be seen. Plain and simple. There is no Harry Potter's cloak that will magically make you dissappear. Not from night vision and not from thermal.
One of the first things everyone does when they get thermal is go and film the cat. No, I don't know why.
The cat is just there, lol
Cats love it when you open things because then they get to climb in the box
Maybe they buy them just to locate their cats?
1. Cats rule the internets. 2. cats have insulating furr of many different lengths, so a first check of contrast spectrum and resolution of the new thermal is easy done with a Mk1 house cat, checking on a tree or neighbours wall with your new binoculars or lens for sharpness and colour bleeding. similar to rendering the standard teapot or furmark for a new GPU or your known hill or supermarket parking lot for acceleration and break tests after the first snow has fallen.
unbrella works for camouflage
I'll be sure to test it out in a future vid!
Mylar blanket + a can of Dollar Tree spray glue is gilley suit in a can. Just spray 1 side and roll it in the local flora.
Works on umbrellas and your other gear too
Nope
An "unbrella" huh? Interesting
Falcon claw covered this
At 01:00 - Most people don't realise that as long as the device is being scanned around at least slightly, your brain will combine the stream of images into an apparently "higher resolution than it should be" video.
A similar effect can be seen if you look for videos of "Logie Baird TV" and realise just how good only 32 video lines can seem, as long as either the subject or the camera is moving around a bit.
Humm interesting theory 🤔
You've got me thinking thank you.
Idk if there's reputable scientific evidence for that but am going to believe it anyhow, at least until such time I can afford a high end thermal scope.
@@franknobleID there is plenty of evidence, the human brain, similar to predator animals, is very efficient in detecting movmements and colours that dont belong in environments (like the red/orange/blue on greyscale). There are also experiments with driving along a fence where your brain creates and unobstructed image from the gaps in the fence.
Or just sample down a sharp video of animals and humans in front of trees etc. As long as the move and the camera is still, it looks like a higher resolution, similar to stationary objects and a moving cameras.
Cool video man, and a dam good burn with the reptile reference! Cheers
I did some reading on the topic of thermal camouflage, and I think I have a pretty decent idea of how to do it. You need to have the exterior of the material be close to ambient temperature while isolating it from body heat. If you want to take advantage of different fabrics, you'll need to layer. The interior should contain an IR opaque layer that is a poor thermal conductor - perhaps just a thick fiber, or some sort of IR reflective sandwich. If you use a reflective material, you should probably insulate both sides of it, to negate the visibility of its reflections and isolate the outer layer. The outer layer should probably be some sort of ventilated mesh, maybe separate layers of increasingly thinner mesh. This will adopt ambient temperature because of the ventilation. This actually does provide some insulation, as you can buy netted base layers which perform well in cold climates. It may be interesting to try and find some way to ventilate the interior layer in a convenient direction. With time, anything worn will heat up as you demonstrated, and start to stand out. Also, consider the effect of color; black apparently is the best absorber of IR. However, that doesn't mean the entire outfit should be black, as this would probably silhouette on IR. However, it may provide some signature reduction in areas that are going to be ventilating warm air
You're right-the human body is always going to be giving off heat (if it's alive) so the job of the thermal camo is either to diffuse that heat evenly and slowly, or keep it all in for short periods of time. I also wondered if a cold thermal mass could be carried inside the thermal cloak as a heat sink, or if that would be getting too complicated.
Good stuff, man! Keep up the good work! Just subscribed, and looking forward to more of your content.
great video, I liked the practical info and the presentation format.
You look like an interesting guy. Good luck with the new channel direction. Subbed.
Thanks!
All good points to consider in the day of thermal imaging drones.
Appreciate the info 🙏🏻
3:28 it's not the diameter of the lens that dictates its field of view, it's focal length (for given sensor size of course; with larger sensors FOV would be bigger with the same focal length); aperture is irrelevant in that regard.
Those long wave infrared sensors are not that sensitive (compared to modern visible light ones for example), so they need very "fast" optics, something like f/2 or even faster to work effectively, and if you increase the focal length, lens diameter must also go up for it to still be fast enough, but it's for light gathering purposes and doesn't affect the FOV. You can't just increase the focal length without making the lens bigger, because it would make everything darker, and eventually the sensor would not be able to pick up any useful signal at all.
Thanks, I realized that after the video. It just so happens that the focal length appears to my eye to match the overall size of the lens. Not a camera guy or I would have known that
@@CivilDefenseEngineer looking at the curvature of those lenses, it might as well be that those are indeed f/1 (so focal lenght = aperture) or something close to that.
This video is really well made. Thank you.
I've read that testing has proven a simple large piece of cardboard is hard to beat.
anything large enough to cover (not touching) your body. and the side pointed to the thermal cam is the same temp as things around it will hide you to a point.
then there is night vision to confound.
I just want a handheld for camping. Too many stories of folk being snuck up on. I don't wanna be snuck up on.
This was a great video, man...thanks!
Thanks for the good information.
Later down the road i plan on making a watch tower to snipe coyotes at night on my reservation to protect my moms animals. Ive been trying to find the cheapest ones but i didnt know how deep and complex this actually was. Awesome video by the way and thanks. Any extra info helps, cheers from AZ
I have one of those handheld spotting Scopes I figure if I can see them that's good enough I can tell if I need to engage you have a hand free for pistol or if they're too harden you evade or ambush later been having thermals that aren't part of a rifle platform for helmet platform is still much better than nothing in my opinion, right?
I have a couple cheap thermals; they are weaker than you have shown and can still be of a use. more work and info needed,
You should do a video comparing the current thermal offerings for us.
I would like to, but I don't have access to a lot of devices (yet). For now I'm focusing on experimenting with reducing thermal signature. The Night Vision Guys have some good videos comparing options. I don't know how unbiased they are considering they sell the thermals. They called the 256 resolution Rattler V2 a "sub-entry-level" offering, I felt poor when they said that.
Golden rule, if the government has it, we need it, thermal is essential these days I'm glad it's getting cheaper and I hope it keeps getting cheaper.
Night vision with thermal overlay will be awesome
Great video! I just watched a short from some military tactical team and their top thermal blocker was... an umbrella lol. Anyways, sorry for the n00b question, and I'll probably looks this up later, yet what's the difference between what you have and FLIR? Is one better than the other? Perhaps you could do a video on it. Thanks!
Great question! FLIR is a name brand, like kleenex or bandaid. FLIR got bought by Teledyne Brown not too long ago. But yeah, what I have is a thermal imaging device, just like a FLIR but cheaper.
@@CivilDefenseEngineer Oh goodness, I did look up my watch history and it jogged my memory of FLIR and Pulsar. One day I'll get one... I hope you'll have fun with yours! Thanks again!
Can you post a link to the thermal devices you were using?
Thank you. Well done
Great vid
A device I use for checking Thermal is SEEK Thermal. It is very small, you hook it up to your phone or iPad. Been quite surprised at what gets picked up my back yard.
The seek kinda sucks. Iray T2 pro has a 256 resolution, build in focus and magnification. And much cleaner image.
I agree, SEEK sucks, terrible image quality.
The Picatinny connections really small I bet it will fall off or Scratch up the Picatinny with recoil
Could be, I'll post a 1000 rnd update in a couple months. So far so good, but it's still too new to tell.
How bad was the zero shift from taking the optic on and off your gun?
Honestly I would not bet my life on it holding zero. Fortunately it is SUPER easy to zero, and you can do it in one or two shots. I should have included that in the video, but I am working on a follow up video(s).
I own a AGM TS-19 V1 I regret buying it every single day. I personally think folks should be looking at older pulsar thermion products.
Thanks for the tip. At a glance, they look to be outside my budget at the moment. If this channel takes off and I can start monetizing, I will funnel all proceeds into more things to test for the channel!
Why is it you regret buying it? And why do you recommend the others over it?
I have an Axion XG35, and for a compact unit its awesome.
How do you like the proprietary battery on the v2 ? I loooooove agm thermals I have the ts35 384 but the original version with replaceable batteries and have a bat pack battery extender that lets me run 2x16650's I heard the resolution on the v2 is better though I just cant get over proprietary batteries
The proprietary battery gets 10 hours of run time, or 9 when it's cold out. It comes with two batteries, but I plan on getting plenty of extra. I don't have a problem with it, but versatility would be nice.
anything to do with power, should never be allowed to be a proprietary item.
heck even apple had to fit in with everybody else with the usb-c.
A low-res thermal is better than no thermal. I also feel that field-of-view may be more important than resolution for the average consumer.
That's probably true, and doesn't affect cost as much as thermal resolution.
Good video
Good job,love the tech,right. 🇺🇸
Thanks, cool video pun intended. Subscribed.
Mylar blanket with a thin wool blanket covering it.
That's a great idea. I noticed that my sheep only glow from their faces and legs. Their thick wool in the winter keeps all their heat in.
@CivilDefenseEngineer I suspect it would last briefly if in contact with your body. Might even be better as a sandwich: thin wool blanket, mylar space blanket, outer thin wool blanket. The big problem is summer. How comfy it would be in 70 to 90 degree temps to throw a woolen blanket over yourself!
I've also wondered about modifications to ghillie suits or the looser ghillie viper hood plus ghillie cap. Maybe a thin removable wool liner with or without a mylar barrier. Loose fitting with minimized body contact points.
NVG is the cheap option, you're showing $2k monocle, I've got a $50 Korean monocle, and it is good enough to spot varmints and treepassers. It's not thermal, of course, but it does the job at night.
Are you talking about digital night vision?
It is IR illuminated video. It looks like the model is up to $99 but it is much more functional than the one I have, much better resolution, and endogenous battery instead of AA batteries. It has a 25mm lens, equipped with 850 nm IR illuminator and good vision out to at least 100 yards.
Imagine a civil disturbance -without passable road ways, AKA TCP. Chainsaw first. Kinda like security radiating out from each community. Name and purpose, please step off to the side.
I'd just buy 100 5 buck arduino cams with the IR cut filter off, then refilter the data for visible light if I want that image instead of the IR one
Fun idea, but replace the word "just" with "painstakingly" especially since my arduino skills are 10-years rusty.
@@CivilDefenseEngineerThis is an extremely common use of “just.”
I just bought the agm 19-256. Kinda wanted it for multiple reasons. Hunting, tracking and obviously threat detection. I just need to see a threat before it sees me so i can run my 195lb ass the fuck away. This does that nice. The fact that i can strap it to multiple different guns as a scope is just the cherry on top. Most the time it lives in a pouch on my hunting gear so i can try to see game thru dense woods that usually deer just blend in and u necer even see. Def works for me. Plus with veteran discount it was barely over $700
After you close a road of course
use umbrella
Just have a good quality darkometer
And a single pane of glass can hide something behind it
Think TCP.
Ok there is no hiding from thermal
The only way to hide is to fool the operator of the thermal into thinking you are not what theyre looking for as AI comes online this will become even more difficult
Everyones looking for an invisibility cloak and doing unrealistic non field employable things that greatly hinder the shoot move communicate thing that we are all trying to be good at
Mask some of your thermal signature that should be the goal, then use "terrain" from METT-TC to stop gap the rest.
Thermal cant see through hills or through thick tree cover.
Yeah, I'm highly skeptical of this "just use an umbrella, bro" idea many are commenting. That would be an awkward item to add to your kit for not a lot of benefit.
The umbrella will still not blend in to the back ground heat radiation.
People do not understand how to counter thermal while also remaining hidden to the mk1 eyeball or from both NV and thermal
They get wrapped around the axle thinking too intently on being invisible to thermal all while making themselves more visible to other observation methods.
25 degree field of view.
No, it's actually a 25mm lens. The FoV is only 7°.
Umbrellas are your friend.
Connection points too small
Hey there-What do you mean?
Always been super disappointed by agm stuff, now everyone says they’re good all of a sudden? I guess it’s time to spend another 1800$ to figure out if they actually are finally decent
Hold on, now, this video wasn't meant to be a review of AGM specifically. I didn't compare it with any other options because this was the only device I had.
lol engineer 😂
from what are y'all about to defend yourselfs, lmao, 50bmgs, 20mm antitanks, all varieties of ammo and vests, NV goggles and thermals, you can invade a continent using your "home defense" hilarious
What are you on about, bro? Lol
Cool and informative
The Gospel
Jesus Christ loves you and died, rose from the dead, and ascended to heaven to pay for your sin! Repent and turn to Him and you will walk in light and be saved. Read the book of John and Luke to see God's love for you!
Amen, sir! Keep spreading the word!
Amen, sir! Keep spreading the word!