Aero, on a non windy day they tied but on a windy normal every day aero will win easily, cause aero bike is faster not only going fast but against head winds. That being said if you ride out of the saddle like Andrew, aero bike kind lose its purpose, is not suitable for his style.
At my age and power, and the type of riding I do (e.g. not racing), a more lightweight and "endurance" style bike probably makes most sense. But I just love how aero bikes _look_. Neeeeeeeoooooowwwwww!
I was ‘that guy’ being passed at 6:08 in. To anyone who thinks it’s demoralising- it’s not- it’s a great experience being lucky enough to see the uk’s best fly past you as you’re doing hill reps. Take the positive in things- just see what is actually possible- and the ridiculous speed the elite riders smash these climbs up with. Just get out and cycle - I’m not demoralised or broken. I didn’t get off to walk and put the bike on eBay. I just did a few more reps and enjoyed the day out 🎉. And Andrew and the gcn crew were great to chat to.
Same mate, I love hills but am not fast on them, so when I see someone flying past me I just have to go "wow!" and appreciate the talent and fitness some riders possess. Then it's back to me gasping for breath and questioning my life choices 😀
I came to say the same. When you are out of the saddle you are spending energy swinging the bike side to side, and the heavier it is the more energy you waste. So all other things being equal, if you are riding out of the saddle you will benefit more from a lightweight setup.
@@Frostbiker, interesting observation about 'swinging'! No only it takes more energy due to inertia, sideways motion also disturbs the air-flow and cancels the advantage that aero frame provides. These frames are designed to cut through the air not slalom through it.
Pointless test. Told us nothing. I'd expect that a highly trained athlete would be able to do very similar efforts. Just guessing that the lighter bike is faster. Could have done that from the studio.
I don't think anyone believes that a heavier aero bike can go uphill quicker than a much lighter bike, I don't care how many degrees the person telling me that has. Does that calculation take into affect your not in the same riding position doing both and seeing as your the thing creating the most drag and at much slower speeds.
I think we need power to compare, for starters. I'd also like to see someone who normally climbs seated since climbing out of the saddle makes the whole system way less aero. Deep dive please!
Exactly! You can’t trust “feel” over actual power data. By not having a power meter on the lightweight bike, it’s getting an unfair weight advantage too.
@GCN should make a line of jerseys in National Championships livery with GCN LOGO’s so obviously not past or current National Champions. It would promote National pride.
@@lazzaboyman8003 Maybe the same as I do on a stiff climb I do (mostly on foot lol) when a proper mountain biker goes past while I'm lying down resting :)
A test over 2 days would have been better, so he had time to recover. But as Andrew said, it’s a relatively shallow climb with a flat section so it’s one of those perhaps borderline scenarios. Overall it doesn’t change the fact that aero is faster on flat and lightweight is faster on uphills.
Of course he does. If you put flat panels on his bike it’s going to slow him down whether he stands or sits. In the same way an aero bike is still going to cut through air more whether he himself is aero or not.
6:10 imagine your confidence crushed like that 😂. You're climbing along, doing great and someone just flying by you on a climb. Andrew should have yelled " don't worry its ok, I'm the best!"
Generally any long ride will have a mixture of terrain. As such a bit hard to judge on a 1.4km uphill effort. Also aero tends to lose significance when climbing. When it comes to longer rides, positioning and comfort take the prize. Ollie's awesome 1000km had him commenting that a more relaxed position would have been better and led to less pain. Really enjoyed watching this video. Andrew is such a unit!! Left the other rider looking like he was standing still.
@@G-rig6969no, it’s not. More Aero always helps. Check evenpoel during saturdays ride in vuelta. He’s way more aero than his opponent. See the difference in position and body. Crosswinds even can help you push forward , not sure if you posses deep wheels, but if you had, you should have felt it. Biggest aero component is the rider, crosswinds or not. The faster you go the more it has advantage.
@@G-rig6969 moderen aero tip with a rounded rim can create lift at yaw angles where older blade like rims would have created instability. You could speculate a modern profile of 80mm might have the instability issuea of a 40 to 50mm older rim. Be a good test, prob a bit to techy for gcn though.
I enjoy hearing more input/comment from Andrew Feather on these rides. From what I recall of ones from a couple of years ago he didn't get to say much and there was the running joke about him just eating a lettuce leaf. It was as though there was a bit of 'The Stig' thing going on, which was funny for a while.
Feather out the saddle is what caused it imo, aero bikes aren't really that much more aero when the rider isn't included in the system. It's the way the aero bikes direct the air around the rider that makes the difference, and when your out the saddle it's completely different really.
I’m a bit late to the party here but this is very interesting. As Simon mentioned towards the end of the video, “lighter cyclists often prefer lighter bikes”. I would assume that this is because the lighter you are the more that weight of your bike/equipment will affect your w/kg. The heavier a rider is the less effect the weight of the bike will have and technically then aero would help more. So the question to be answered from this video that would be interesting is not which one is faster, but at what weight is there no difference. As I have no doubt the aero bike is faster at a higher rider weight.
The first part of this statement is absolutely true: because of the lighter weight of the rider: the bikes weight ratio to the rider will be more significant: but this is also aerodynamically true, being smaller for a culmination of reasons provides aerodynamic benefits, this means the exact same situation arises with the bike in aerodynamics (the aerodynamics of the bike is more important for smaller riders) so this pretty much means the bike is more important if you are less of a factor from a weight and aerodynamic standpoint. it does NOT mean weight is more important than aerodynamics for a smaller rider (just that the bikes properties (with weight and aerodynamics) are a higher percentage of that ratio) Hopefully this makes sense :) My conclusion is it will just extremify the circumstances (the aerodynamic bike on a smaller, lighter rider will be substansially more important for the rider in the right situation (flat, windy section) then it would on a taller, more heavy / powerful rider. Visa versa Kind regards
I'm a US rider and watching your rides on the more narrow (and more picturesque) UK roads I always wonder how riders and drivers get on? Your drivers seem to be extremely patient compared to US drivers.
My family moved to Switzerland a year ago. The Swiss roads are similar to the UK roads in terms of width etc. The Swiss are avid cyclists and I can confirm that the drivers are extremely patient and respectful of us cyclists. The quality of the roads, the scenery and the respectful drivers will be sorely missed when we head back.
I recently bought a new bike and looked very hard at aero vs. lightweight and specifically an aero Canyon or a lightweight Cannondale. I just couldn't bring myself to get over the bulk look of the aero and opted lightweight instead with wireless shifting. I ended up with a Cannondale Supersix Evo with SRAM AXS eTap. I have to say, it climbs like a goat and seems to not require the wattage my almost 13 year older Trek Madone full carbon bike. Hard to compare these bikes with such a time spread and technology that has come in last 13 years to frames. But I am happy with my choice of lightweight over aero.
The GC grand tour riders still prefer the light bikes on the climbs. Admittedly they get towed up most of it in 2nd or third wheel but if aero really was faster why hasn't the science convinced them/the teams otherwise? Deep dive involving the pro teams POV too... Makes me want that Orbea now, more than ever!
It's sad that there is no power meter on the climbing bike, this let space for speculations only. Btw, as we know the bike count for only 8% of aerodrag, if anyone want to be aero going uphill needs to focus his effort on putting out power seated instead of out of the saddle. I think that because of the speeds involved aerobike could help going faster only on gradient equal or below 5%. So, for this climb lightweight should be better then aero
you can watch him race an almost pro Luca Vergallito who is in Alpecin Develpement team (Its a video from some years ago).... It migh be shocking to you but Feather lost. A WT Pro Climber is a lot better than Feather (And in this case someone who is close to becomming a pro but not yet a pro was also better).... for some reason people always want "regular people" to be better than pros..... but there is a reason pros turned pro.... because they are better >-
I thought the primary advantage of using aero is "descent" section so would have been more relevant if this combined time for both going up and return, not just climb part only
I live in a hilly region and watched this video hoping to garner some information on gear ratios. The only clue here was the closing shot and the partial view of the cassettes.
The feather needs to stand it's the way he rides to get the most power out, the climb is to short for the aero gains to show through needs a longer faster climb. The feather is a cool dude, great video keep them coming 👍
GCN MUST do a CLIMB CHALLENGE on BRASSKNOCKER HILL in Bath 1.082KM and 151M - a stiffie 13.96% average gradient with plenty of 16% thrown-in to keep you honest - the gauntlet has been NUKE DROPPED
The aero frame is designed to have high aspect tubes to slice through headwinds (or low yaw angle headwinds) but it has a far higher lateral surface area when it comes to rocking from side to side when the rider is out the saddle. Just think about a motor boat or a fishing boat which sets a small mizzen sail to stop its lateral rocking when at sea in rough water. The higher lateral area of the frame and wheel rims on the aero bike is dissipating energy in just the same way that mizzen sail on the fishing boat does. And where does that energy have to come from - the only place it can come from - the rider. So there's part of your reason for the aero bike being slower than expected. They are fast when ridden into a headwind (and don't forget at pro speeds, yaw angles are nearly always low) but they start to dissipate the rider's energy if the rider is honking like AF.
Great video! When Simon threw the lab coat down at the end, I was really hoping he was going to pick up the lightweight Orbea and give the KOM another shot!
Should’nt be a straight out choice between a lightweight (6.5kgs) and aero (8kgs) as these days one can buy an “aero” bike which is 6.8kgs… the choice should be how fast you ride up gradients. If you can ascend greater than 14kms/h the aero becomes more impactful. Over 10-12%, speeds are unlikely to go higher than 14kms/h, then a pure lightweight would be faster. Point though, is to actually just buy the lightweight aero bikes on offer and enjoy the best of both worlds
When going over 25 km/h, SHOCK: an aero bike is slightly faster. Feather won the national hill climb champs last year averaging 17 km/h. And that’s the winner(!) plenty of great riders averaging 12-14 km/h… yep - can’t tell me an aero bike helps here 🤡
I wonder if you would have gotten a different result with a seated climber. Andrew's standing climbing position is incredibly effective, but it probably nullifies any potential aero gains.
Accelerations, the lighter bike handled even small changes in gradient better - even if the power, effort from a rider is steady, it reaches optimal speed faster.
I think, at this point in bicycle evolution, in both cases, we fight for really tiny numbers, that may make the difference between winning and losing, but overall are not that impressive. Still, in a strictly climbing scenario, I believe having less weight wins over being aero. The least aero part is always a rider... You can gain a watt or two by aero design, but this is nothing compared to air resistance generated by the rider itself. So, while I understand that in racing every tiny bit of saved energy counts, I don't really understand this race for aerodynamics in the bicycle industry. On the other hand, one can really feel the difference between light and heavy bike on the climb. I'm not sure they are really that impactful between those two designs. But the difference between, let's say, a steel-frame low-end bike and a pro carbon-frame bike can be massive.
To me the aero will show going downhill or on long flat tracks doing 40-50 km/h but uphill the difference is minimal. My cheap 5 years old Decathlon Triban 540 is just below 10 kg and I am just above 104 with clothes and water. Maybe losing weight would give more for me than a lighter bike? 😂
Imagine you're doing your thing, impressed by yourself cause you're making it up the climb on your way to the shops not in a bailout gear. And then Feather tears your doors off going about twice your speed, if not more. 06:10
I love Belmont hill. I used to use it for hill reps for alpine training after work, especially after they resurfaced it. By all accounts, probably the last time the council resurfaced any road in Bristol.
I vastly preferred my lighter bikes for climbing but I also prefer my current heavier, more comfortable bike for the 20km of bad roads I ride just to get to the start of the climbs. I don't climb as fast or as far anymore, but I enjoy my ride days more.
I don’t think maths is wrong, I think you aren’t doing all the maths, that’s all. If you don’t take acceleration into account then an aero bike will always come out better in theory. Bikes are accelerating all the time, especially in climbs of changing gradients, it’s really hard to quantify and hence simulate with maths. Try comparing an aero bike and a light weight bike (or the same bike with different system mass) on a completely flat course with lots of accelerations, that blow the maths too, and maybe prove this point.
Aero profits are a function of speed, he's just not fast enough to surpass the constant profit from less weight. Conclusion: he's not trained enough to get the desired results 😉
We have a hill that is literally almost identical to Belmont Hill there in the UK, its in Indiana US, same distance, elevation gain, category. Very punchy and fun.
My theory is that this is just bike geometry coming to play. The aero bike prolly has a much bigger departure from Andrew’s traditional climbing bike and therefore, his climbing position.
Andrews climbing style is out of the saddle. So it would seem like it was not about arrow, but more about his consistent power. a power meter would have confirmed that. More testing.
what surprised is that you only tested it at the kind of hill which better suits aero bike, also it's one of the shorter climbs so for me this video is a fail
His Jam sandwich had more useful data than this video. A lot of frames havent taken advantage of new frame rules so they are behind, Cannondale and specialize both have super light and areo frames - those should be tested. In addition there are a lot of eastern wheels that are now using integrated carbon hub/spkes that are around 1200gr at 50mm deep. The choice is no longer areo and light, its an aero 6.8kg bike. You guys have the ability to do some very cool videos on this and show the emerging light areo bikes, you should take advantage of this. An Sl8 Tarmac with a winspace Mega D45 or craft racing wheel CS5055 you can get a 6kg bike that is blistering fast.
Depends on how aero v how light and also the speed you are travelling. Anything under 10mph and aero will fail. 4% hill v 10% hill it would be totally different.
Just wondering what would happen if you throw body weight in. I would guess that to a very light rider a really lightweight climbing bike could make more of a difference than to a 90 kg. According to Orbed 500 grams more or less in the bike (not the wheels of course) does not make a big difference for 5-10 % steep hills. And aero bike should make more difference at 30 km/h than 500 grams less on a hill of 10 %. Given the fact that 500 grams in the bike/frame would have the same influence as 500 grams of body weight, I can see why that is true. If you can easily loose 1 kg of body weight, that will be a much better option than spending extra bucks in a climbing bike. And talking about all this: they always give numbers about the watt benefits of aero bikes, but how much watt can you save with a slightly different position on the bike? Maybe the whole bike industry is taking both aero and lightweight way too far for people that never do competitive time trials or long hill climbs against the clock. Maybe it all just doesn't matter for 95 % of us, in which case you should just buy whatever you like. I actually also hate bikes like the new Specialized Tarmac SL8 Expert: the frame is super lightweight, but than they throw a heavy SRAM Rival group on it. Why? Frames sub 800 grams should come only with light wheels and Dura Ace/Red group sets. Why would someone spend an excessive amount of money for a light frame if it comes with heavy parts. I would prefer a less lightweight frame with an Ultegra/Force groupset and lighter wheels.
Remember aerodynamic drag scales with velocity squared. This means that if you halve your speed (lets say from 40km/s on flat to 20km/s on a climb) you are only experiencing a quarter of the drag. Those few percentage point reductions in drag are now far less meaningful. Obviously those reductions are even smaller when you ride out of the saddle. Compare that to weight which is now both effecting your friction and physically pulling you down the hill
It’s so funny that with the funding and partnerships GCN (Play Sports) has, they can’t equip a power meter on the other bike. That being said, I do ride an Orbea Orca and love it but I’m calling this sort of video (content) bull. 🤡
Which would you choose: lightweight or aero? 🤔 Let us know in the comments below! 👇
Aero, on a non windy day they tied but on a windy normal every day aero will win easily, cause aero bike is faster not only going fast but against head winds.
That being said if you ride out of the saddle like Andrew, aero bike kind lose its purpose, is not suitable for his style.
He looks so much more comfortable on the lite. Maybe it depends on the person?
At my age and power, and the type of riding I do (e.g. not racing), a more lightweight and "endurance" style bike probably makes most sense. But I just love how aero bikes _look_. Neeeeeeeoooooowwwwww!
Personally a lightweight bike with aero wheels. A good compromise between outright speed and feeling lively.
Same starting speed
Same watts
Same position
No body in the front
No cars
And you'll be able to take conclusions
I was ‘that guy’ being passed at 6:08 in. To anyone who thinks it’s demoralising- it’s not- it’s a great experience being lucky enough to see the uk’s best fly past you as you’re doing hill reps. Take the positive in things- just see what is actually possible- and the ridiculous speed the elite riders smash these climbs up with. Just get out and cycle - I’m not demoralised or broken. I didn’t get off to walk and put the bike on eBay. I just did a few more reps and enjoyed the day out 🎉. And Andrew and the gcn crew were great to chat to.
Like a machine going past !
You were doing well too but zoom goes the feather past you. Inspiring isn't it. Good work mate.
Same mate, I love hills but am not fast on them, so when I see someone flying past me I just have to go "wow!" and appreciate the talent and fitness some riders possess. Then it's back to me gasping for breath and questioning my life choices 😀
I'd be stoked having GCN roll up and past on any ride so fair play to you my dude
Where I ride up hills, the fastest riders are 2x faster than me but I still love riding up hills.
It's kind of funny to give Andrew a (heavier) aero bike and expect aero benefits when his preferred riding style is out of the saddle 😅
Yes the aero bike saving as a % of his body drag is going to be small
Good point. He did say he tried to get as aero as possible on the flat section though
Exactly. He's not an aero rider, he's always standing.
I came to say the same. When you are out of the saddle you are spending energy swinging the bike side to side, and the heavier it is the more energy you waste. So all other things being equal, if you are riding out of the saddle you will benefit more from a lightweight setup.
@@Frostbiker, interesting observation about 'swinging'! No only it takes more energy due to inertia, sideways motion also disturbs the air-flow and cancels the advantage that aero frame provides. These frames are designed to cut through the air not slalom through it.
No power meter no meaning
Pointless test. Told us nothing. I'd expect that a highly trained athlete would be able to do very similar efforts.
Just guessing that the lighter bike is faster. Could have done that from the studio.
totally agree...wasted effort, half hearted production
Maybe the meaning is that Orbea wants to sell their new lightweight bike and "asked"($) GCN to make a video about it
Maybe not
I don't think anyone believes that a heavier aero bike can go uphill quicker than a much lighter bike, I don't care how many degrees the person telling me that has. Does that calculation take into affect your not in the same riding position doing both and seeing as your the thing creating the most drag and at much slower speeds.
In the name of science, why no power meter????
That overtake at 06:08 was a straight up murder :D
poor guy
Audax club Bristol jersey too. Those guys are no mugs.
Even crazier that that guy is in the comment section, lol
I think we need power to compare, for starters. I'd also like to see someone who normally climbs seated since climbing out of the saddle makes the whole system way less aero. Deep dive please!
Exactly! You can’t trust “feel” over actual power data. By not having a power meter on the lightweight bike, it’s getting an unfair weight advantage too.
We better get our lab coats on! We love to get nerdy 🤓
@@gcn Yes, it would also be nice to not delete comments criticizing your testing methodology... ;)
Mr Feather, a rider who goes up hills faster than most people descend.
Gorgeous legs he has.
😂
@@Songbirdstresssaucy
@@Songbirdstressthirsty
@@Songbirdstress spicey
That white GCN British champs jersey is a thing of beauty.
@GCN should make a line of jerseys in National Championships livery with GCN LOGO’s so obviously not past or current National Champions.
It would promote National pride.
It’s the dutch flag (or luxembourg). So would fit other countries aswell 😅
Why wouldn't you have a PM for this test?? 🤔
Because what is the point of a light bike if you are adding the weight of a power meter? Then its heavy vs heavy.
@@kidShibuyaa powermeter weights an extra 30g
@@kidShibuya it wasn't an ultimate light weight build bike. Could have easily added a pm. Assiomas on both bikes or something.
Putting power meter pedals on it, would have taken 5 minutes.
Shame on you. 👎
Wonder what the cyclist at 6.10 was thinking😆
If he sees this video he’ll feel better as it was the Twig going past at speed!
I thought the same , he probably thought .....
I must get an E bike too ........
Such was the speed of the pass
@@lazzaboyman8003 Maybe the same as I do on a stiff climb I do (mostly on foot lol) when a proper mountain biker goes past while I'm lying down resting :)
Probably thought he was going backwards
He quit cycling that day.
Bringing one of the best amateur climbers in the world and then NOT using power meter on both bikes? Hmm....
A test over 2 days would have been better, so he had time to recover. But as Andrew said, it’s a relatively shallow climb with a flat section so it’s one of those perhaps borderline scenarios. Overall it doesn’t change the fact that aero is faster on flat and lightweight is faster on uphills.
No powermeter!?!?!?! Cmon guys, back at it again tomorrow with a powermeter
Feather doesnt climb seated so he's not getting aero gains?
Of course he does. If you put flat panels on his bike it’s going to slow him down whether he stands or sits. In the same way an aero bike is still going to cut through air more whether he himself is aero or not.
He almost always standing up while climbing.
Fun content. But this is just an Orbea commercial, not really a “test”.
The speed at which he passed that other cyclist!
He's pretty fast isn't he 🚀
I feel a deep kinship with the rider Andrew blew past.
6:10 imagine your confidence crushed like that 😂. You're climbing along, doing great and someone just flying by you on a climb. Andrew should have yelled " don't worry its ok, I'm the best!"
I would have been sure the overtaking party was using a e bike haha 😂
He say that, didn’t you stop his national champions jersey, nothing says I am the best more than that!
Hahahah how many people do you think Feather has passed on a climb? 👀
@@gcn on a busy day on alp du huez, 600+
Generally any long ride will have a mixture of terrain. As such a bit hard to judge on a 1.4km uphill effort. Also aero tends to lose significance when climbing. When it comes to longer rides, positioning and comfort take the prize. Ollie's awesome 1000km had him commenting that a more relaxed position would have been better and led to less pain. Really enjoyed watching this video. Andrew is such a unit!! Left the other rider looking like he was standing still.
@@G-rig6969no, it’s not. More Aero always helps. Check evenpoel during saturdays ride in vuelta. He’s way more aero than his opponent. See the difference in position and body. Crosswinds even can help you push forward , not sure if you posses deep wheels, but if you had, you should have felt it. Biggest aero component is the rider, crosswinds or not. The faster you go the more it has advantage.
@@G-rig6969 moderen aero tip with a rounded rim can create lift at yaw angles where older blade like rims would have created instability. You could speculate a modern profile of 80mm might have the instability issuea of a 40 to 50mm older rim. Be a good test, prob a bit to techy for gcn though.
@@G-rig6969 yeah, thats defo the area of greatest gain.
Picking a bit that suites you and makes you want to ride should be the most important and will more than likley get you faster 🙌
I enjoy hearing more input/comment from Andrew Feather on these rides. From what I recall of ones from a couple of years ago he didn't get to say much and there was the running joke about him just eating a lettuce leaf. It was as though there was a bit of 'The Stig' thing going on, which was funny for a while.
Hi doesn't waste his breath on talking... he keeps it all for the climbs
Feather out the saddle is what caused it imo, aero bikes aren't really that much more aero when the rider isn't included in the system. It's the way the aero bikes direct the air around the rider that makes the difference, and when your out the saddle it's completely different really.
Andrew climbing out of the saddle probably ruins aero-Ollies sleep 😅
Ollie the Aero Police
I’m a bit late to the party here but this is very interesting. As Simon mentioned towards the end of the video, “lighter cyclists often prefer lighter bikes”. I would assume that this is because the lighter you are the more that weight of your bike/equipment will affect your w/kg. The heavier a rider is the less effect the weight of the bike will have and technically then aero would help more. So the question to be answered from this video that would be interesting is not which one is faster, but at what weight is there no difference. As I have no doubt the aero bike is faster at a higher rider weight.
The first part of this statement is absolutely true: because of the lighter weight of the rider: the bikes weight ratio to the rider will be more significant: but this is also aerodynamically true, being smaller for a culmination of reasons provides aerodynamic benefits, this means the exact same situation arises with the bike in aerodynamics (the aerodynamics of the bike is more important for smaller riders) so this pretty much means the bike is more important if you are less of a factor from a weight and aerodynamic standpoint. it does NOT mean weight is more important than aerodynamics for a smaller rider (just that the bikes properties (with weight and aerodynamics) are a higher percentage of that ratio) Hopefully this makes sense :)
My conclusion is it will just extremify the circumstances (the aerodynamic bike on a smaller, lighter rider will be substansially more important for the rider in the right situation (flat, windy section) then it would on a taller, more heavy / powerful rider. Visa versa
Kind regards
That poor guy in the orange top having Andrew fly past him
Feather out there destroying everyones dreams 😂
@@gcnsome say, that man un-clipped, and is still walking up hill ‘til this very day.
I'm a US rider and watching your rides on the more narrow (and more picturesque) UK roads I always wonder how riders and drivers get on? Your drivers seem to be extremely patient compared to US drivers.
They generally are. In the cities it might be a bit more boisterous, but on country lanes generally everyone gets along.
It’s a real mixed bag to be honest, there are good and bad drivers.
In these videos, probably the camera pointing out the back of a motorcycle in front of the cyclist helps a lot.
Car drivers are cnuts everywhere ! Cyclists have the same respect as pedophiles in uk
My family moved to Switzerland a year ago. The Swiss roads are similar to the UK roads in terms of width etc. The Swiss are avid cyclists and I can confirm that the drivers are extremely patient and respectful of us cyclists. The quality of the roads, the scenery and the respectful drivers will be sorely missed when we head back.
I recently bought a new bike and looked very hard at aero vs. lightweight and specifically an aero Canyon or a lightweight Cannondale. I just couldn't bring myself to get over the bulk look of the aero and opted lightweight instead with wireless shifting. I ended up with a Cannondale Supersix Evo with SRAM AXS eTap. I have to say, it climbs like a goat and seems to not require the wattage my almost 13 year older Trek Madone full carbon bike. Hard to compare these bikes with such a time spread and technology that has come in last 13 years to frames. But I am happy with my choice of lightweight over aero.
Great job Andrew! I really appreciate your participation in all the tests GCN cooks up for you. It’s a joy to watch you fly :)
Hahahaha we always feel like evil geniuses cooking up videos for Andrew 😈
The GC grand tour riders still prefer the light bikes on the climbs. Admittedly they get towed up most of it in 2nd or third wheel but if aero really was faster why hasn't the science convinced them/the teams otherwise? Deep dive involving the pro teams POV too... Makes me want that Orbea now, more than ever!
Lightweight will always prevail for climbing.
It's sad that there is no power meter on the climbing bike, this let space for speculations only.
Btw, as we know the bike count for only 8% of aerodrag, if anyone want to be aero going uphill needs to focus his effort on putting out power seated instead of out of the saddle. I think that because of the speeds involved aerobike could help going faster only on gradient equal or below 5%.
So, for this climb lightweight should be better then aero
Similarly the 1.3kg difference in bike weights is only around 1.7% of the system weight or around 7watts on that climb.
Re-do the test, with powermeter on both bikes. Numbers don't lie. At 26kph aero should save "some" watts. And do at least 3 runs each with both bikes.
With my body weight, bike and add-ons, I'm pushing 275lbs up hills. Hills are already hard enough for me!
We are all the rider Andrew flies by at 6:11 or so. Just keep pedaling…just keep pedaling…
I am so glad Simon still does GCN
The aero bike is totally pointless if your standing the whole time.
I think Andrew Feather is faster on that climb than I am on the flat.
He certainly doesn't hang around 😉
I’d like to see feather race a world tour pro up a 5-6 minute climb.
you can watch him race an almost pro Luca Vergallito who is in Alpecin Develpement team (Its a video from some years ago).... It migh be shocking to you but Feather lost. A WT Pro Climber is a lot better than Feather (And in this case someone who is close to becomming a pro but not yet a pro was also better).... for some reason people always want "regular people" to be better than pros..... but there is a reason pros turned pro.... because they are better >-
@@lordad feather’s not really a regular person though is he, just look at his power on strava.
Love lightweight bikes
They're so great for flying up those steep climbs! 🚀
Lets compare a aero bike to a climbing bike without power just by the time and pure feeling. Yeah okay, thats like going back to 2015… wtf
I thought the primary advantage of using aero is "descent" section so would have been more relevant if this combined time for both going up and return, not just climb part only
Andrew blowing by the guy in the classic Bristol jersey priceless.
I live in a hilly region and watched this video hoping to garner some information on gear ratios. The only clue here was the closing shot and the partial view of the cassettes.
Such a waste of time why would one do a comparison video like this n only not use a power meter on both bike.
The feather needs to stand it's the way he rides to get the most power out, the climb is to short for the aero gains to show through needs a longer faster climb. The feather is a cool dude, great video keep them coming 👍
For some more of Feather, you should check out our 'Everesting' film we made with him on GCN+ 👉 gcn.eu/8848m
... too* short
GCN MUST do a CLIMB CHALLENGE on BRASSKNOCKER HILL in Bath 1.082KM and 151M - a stiffie 13.96% average gradient with plenty of 16% thrown-in to keep you honest - the gauntlet has been NUKE DROPPED
I'd vote for Lansdown Lane/Weston hill. 1.58km, Elevation Gain of 164m Avg Grade 10.3%, with a steepest 100m with 17.4% gradient.
Pretty sure Andrew already has the KOM on that 😂
What I'd give to be pedalling up a climb; see El Feather come blasting past and then appear in the background of GCN
The aero frame is designed to have high aspect tubes to slice through headwinds (or low yaw angle headwinds) but it has a far higher lateral surface area when it comes to rocking from side to side when the rider is out the saddle.
Just think about a motor boat or a fishing boat which sets a small mizzen sail to stop its lateral rocking when at sea in rough water.
The higher lateral area of the frame and wheel rims on the aero bike is dissipating energy in just the same way that mizzen sail on the fishing boat does.
And where does that energy have to come from - the only place it can come from - the rider.
So there's part of your reason for the aero bike being slower than expected. They are fast when ridden into a headwind (and don't forget at pro speeds, yaw angles are nearly always low) but they start to dissipate the rider's energy if the rider is honking like AF.
So you want to demonstrate something with no powermeter on the both bikes 🤣🤣🤣 just bullshit
Great video! When Simon threw the lab coat down at the end, I was really hoping he was going to pick up the lightweight Orbea and give the KOM another shot!
Hahahahah don't temp him 👀
Check out how backwards the bars are rotated / high the hoods are. Interesting position.
Bike company BS marketing is not "science" or "maths". You found that out today.
Should’nt be a straight out choice between a lightweight (6.5kgs) and aero (8kgs) as these days one can buy an “aero” bike which is 6.8kgs… the choice should be how fast you ride up gradients. If you can ascend greater than 14kms/h the aero becomes more impactful. Over 10-12%, speeds are unlikely to go higher than 14kms/h, then a pure lightweight would be faster. Point though, is to actually just buy the lightweight aero bikes on offer and enjoy the best of both worlds
When going over 25 km/h, SHOCK: an aero bike is slightly faster. Feather won the national hill climb champs last year averaging 17 km/h. And that’s the winner(!) plenty of great riders averaging 12-14 km/h… yep - can’t tell me an aero bike helps here 🤡
But those 2 runs were at between 26.5 and 27 kph/
I wonder if you would have gotten a different result with a seated climber. Andrew's standing climbing position is incredibly effective, but it probably nullifies any potential aero gains.
That guy he blew by was thinking, was that a bird, or a plane, no it was Superman!
Good vid but it can't have been difficult to find a second powermeter and put it on the lightweight bike
Accelerations, the lighter bike handled even small changes in gradient better - even if the power, effort from a rider is steady, it reaches optimal speed faster.
I think, at this point in bicycle evolution, in both cases, we fight for really tiny numbers, that may make the difference between winning and losing, but overall are not that impressive. Still, in a strictly climbing scenario, I believe having less weight wins over being aero. The least aero part is always a rider... You can gain a watt or two by aero design, but this is nothing compared to air resistance generated by the rider itself. So, while I understand that in racing every tiny bit of saved energy counts, I don't really understand this race for aerodynamics in the bicycle industry. On the other hand, one can really feel the difference between light and heavy bike on the climb. I'm not sure they are really that impactful between those two designs. But the difference between, let's say, a steel-frame low-end bike and a pro carbon-frame bike can be massive.
We finally need one time aero bikes made out of plastic. Would do the job I think.
That guy he passed was probably on an Ebike aswell 😂 Feather is a Beast!
To me the aero will show going downhill or on long flat tracks doing 40-50 km/h but uphill the difference is minimal.
My cheap 5 years old Decathlon Triban 540 is just below 10 kg and I am just above 104 with clothes and water. Maybe losing weight would give more for me than a lighter bike? 😂
... losing* weight
It's abit Baaah that test, when you don't even have a powermeter on the light bike.
Imagine you're doing your thing, impressed by yourself cause you're making it up the climb on your way to the shops not in a bailout gear.
And then Feather tears your doors off going about twice your speed, if not more. 06:10
I love Belmont hill. I used to use it for hill reps for alpine training after work, especially after they resurfaced it. By all accounts, probably the last time the council resurfaced any road in Bristol.
It's a lovely little climb isn't it! Or not if it's your last hill before home after a long ride 😂
Plot Twist: GCN Does Science! (without a device to measure the science) 🤷🏻♂️
Surely an aero bike is good for going fast downhill and especially useful for flat terrain? Time trial etc.
I vastly preferred my lighter bikes for climbing but I also prefer my current heavier, more comfortable bike for the 20km of bad roads I ride just to get to the start of the climbs. I don't climb as fast or as far anymore, but I enjoy my ride days more.
Seems to us that the moral of the story is just enjoy the bike you are riding 👀
@@gcn the Aero part of Aero Endurance bike is also surprisingly nice, especially with a persistent head wind.
I guess using a power meter on both runs would have proved something one way or another, which may not be in line with Orbea's marketing aims.
The lightweight bike Orca looks so much nicer.. just my opinion.. Pete 😊👍
I don’t think maths is wrong, I think you aren’t doing all the maths, that’s all. If you don’t take acceleration into account then an aero bike will always come out better in theory. Bikes are accelerating all the time, especially in climbs of changing gradients, it’s really hard to quantify and hence simulate with maths. Try comparing an aero bike and a light weight bike (or the same bike with different system mass) on a completely flat course with lots of accelerations, that blow the maths too, and maybe prove this point.
Aero profits are a function of speed, he's just not fast enough to surpass the constant profit from less weight. Conclusion: he's not trained enough to get the desired results 😉
We have a hill that is literally almost identical to Belmont Hill there in the UK, its in Indiana US, same distance, elevation gain, category. Very punchy and fun.
My theory is that this is just bike geometry coming to play. The aero bike prolly has a much bigger departure from Andrew’s traditional climbing bike and therefore, his climbing position.
Andrews climbing style is out of the saddle. So it would seem like it was not about arrow, but more about his consistent power. a power meter would have confirmed that. More testing.
what surprised is that you only tested it at the kind of hill which better suits aero bike, also it's one of the shorter climbs so for me this video is a fail
Can we see a return of the aero bike/aero wheels, light bike/light wheels, aero bike/light wheels, and light bike/aero wheels?
Andrew Feather, I would kill just to have that name.
We all know what bike Feather would chose if he has total freedom to ride whatever spec he wants. ;)
how about long climb like 5k elev. who would win aero vs climb bike?
Andrew's amazing performance has inspired me to quit cycling.
Or it could inspire you to cycle more! 😉
His Jam sandwich had more useful data than this video. A lot of frames havent taken advantage of new frame rules so they are behind, Cannondale and specialize both have super light and areo frames - those should be tested. In addition there are a lot of eastern wheels that are now using integrated carbon hub/spkes that are around 1200gr at 50mm deep. The choice is no longer areo and light, its an aero 6.8kg bike. You guys have the ability to do some very cool videos on this and show the emerging light areo bikes, you should take advantage of this. An Sl8 Tarmac with a winspace Mega D45 or craft racing wheel CS5055 you can get a 6kg bike that is blistering fast.
Andrew Feather measures his performance with a jam meter. Sweet!
What on earth is up with the hoods and bar position? Hoping its camera lens trickery
What profile of wheels did the Orbea Orca have, (the climbe
A lightweight aero bike is still faster than a heavy aero bike.
Out of saddle riding cancels any aero bike gain. May as well tie a parachute to your bike.
As I have NO interest in the KOM/QOM. What happens when you loose your KOM/QOM to yourself?
Maybe the bike is aero and light! It would be really interesting how much difference is between the two bikes. It would be a nice wind tunnel video 😅
Depends on how aero v how light and also the speed you are travelling. Anything under 10mph and aero will fail.
4% hill v 10% hill it would be totally different.
Making the bike more aero, will only make a very,very small change for the rider and bike. If you are going up.......🤫
Love Andrew’s new stripes!!
Just wondering what would happen if you throw body weight in. I would guess that to a very light rider a really lightweight climbing bike could make more of a difference than to a 90 kg. According to Orbed 500 grams more or less in the bike (not the wheels of course) does not make a big difference for 5-10 % steep hills. And aero bike should make more difference at 30 km/h than 500 grams less on a hill of 10 %. Given the fact that 500 grams in the bike/frame would have the same influence as 500 grams of body weight, I can see why that is true. If you can easily loose 1 kg of body weight, that will be a much better option than spending extra bucks in a climbing bike.
And talking about all this: they always give numbers about the watt benefits of aero bikes, but how much watt can you save with a slightly different position on the bike?
Maybe the whole bike industry is taking both aero and lightweight way too far for people that never do competitive time trials or long hill climbs against the clock. Maybe it all just doesn't matter for 95 % of us, in which case you should just buy whatever you like.
I actually also hate bikes like the new Specialized Tarmac SL8 Expert: the frame is super lightweight, but than they throw a heavy SRAM Rival group on it. Why? Frames sub 800 grams should come only with light wheels and Dura Ace/Red group sets. Why would someone spend an excessive amount of money for a light frame if it comes with heavy parts. I would prefer a less lightweight frame with an Ultegra/Force groupset and lighter wheels.
Andrew still rides his custom rim brake supersix evo 5.5 kg, then other bikes when gcn sponsors him to do so
Doing a deep dive into why??? Here's your deep dive: he rode standing up, negating almost all the aero advantages of the aero bike.
Considering that Feather climbs standing up, I'm not sure this is the right rider for this test.
Remember aerodynamic drag scales with velocity squared. This means that if you halve your speed (lets say from 40km/s on flat to 20km/s on a climb) you are only experiencing a quarter of the drag. Those few percentage point reductions in drag are now far less meaningful. Obviously those reductions are even smaller when you ride out of the saddle.
Compare that to weight which is now both effecting your friction and physically pulling you down the hill
Maybe new light bikes are closer aero wise to all out Aeros?
What glasses is Andrew Feather wearing? They look sick. Need to get me some
It’s so funny that with the funding and partnerships GCN (Play Sports) has, they can’t equip a power meter on the other bike.
That being said, I do ride an Orbea Orca and love it but I’m calling this sort of video (content) bull. 🤡
Are you sure Andrew didn’t jam the communications to skew the results?