Great discussion brothers. May God bless you all. And to David, my personal thanks. Please repeat this format. It's wonderful. But always include brother David Bercot. Thank you for nourishing us spiritualy. God bless. Amador from Puerto Rico.
Unfortunately, David is busy writing books and taking care of his church family as an elder of Chambersburg Christian fellowship. I hope you can understand he can only be on the channel occasionally. I hope you can be blessed by the many brothers who have been discipled by David. Thanks, God bless.
I still struggle with this one... What would we do if we see evil in front of us that we can stop? for example, you see some abuse that is in your power to stop. But you then, should abstain of defending the abused? Are we not convicted by the righteousness of God to act? If we see a person drowning should we jump to save that person, or pray to God? Is lack of faith to take physical action, even if the action comes from charity?
Man, think about what you're even saying. There are plenty of wicked things that happen everyday that God allowed to happen (when He could have stopped it or ended it). By your logic God is the most evil being in existence. But God chooses to wait and reserve judgment on Judgment Day. We should imitate Christ and not resist evil but encourage our enemies to repent and reserve judgment until Judgment Day.
@@nolanl3343 So a guy is violating and intending to kill your daughter, you catch him but he is a big dude, but you have a weapon, you wouldn't use it? Man, you know that the apostle carried swords right? One thing is martyrdom for the faith, another is being a coward , and allowing evil to take over, when clearly is in your hands to stop it, because "no violence". This idea that Christian are pacifists is not even Biblical.
All too often I hear Christians in democracies excusing themselves from submission to government authority or honoring and praying for elected officials (per Matthew 22:17-21; Romans 13:1-7; 1 Timothy 2:1-3; 1 Peter 2:13-17, etc.) on the basis that, in a democracy, the government is subject to the people & exists to serve the people, and that they object to the policies of the party in power. Well, folks, God has news for you. Even in a democracy, you don't get to choose the government - He does. Read 1 Samuel 2:7-8; Job 12:18-19; Psalm 75:6-7; Isaiah 10:5-8; 45:1; Daniel 2:21; 4:17, 32. In a democracy, God gives you the opportunity through voting (or not) to reveal _your_ heart, just as He does for everyone else. Moreover, Scripture provides no excuse for disobeying or dishonouring governments and elected officials just because we don't like them or what they’re doing. Does anyone suppose the governments under which Jesus and the apostles lived and which took their lives were beacons of righteousness? Or that they were somehow less tolerant of the evils that so many professing Christians today rail against? Instead of politicising the church and compromising the Gospel in the process, Christians in democracies would do better taking time to consider why God chooses the leaders He installs over them, honouring and obeying those leaders (provided they don't _require_ people to disobey His laws) and praying _for_ them.
I have almost all of David Bercot's CD's and his Encyclopedia of the Church Fathers on virtually every subject. I , of course have some disagreements, but I believe in the Restoration plea "We are Christians Only, but not the Only Christians" and "In Essentials Unity - in opinions Liberty - In All Things Love." I agree most with Bercot's view of Salvation and the subject of baptism. I don't agree that Christians should not vote. I believe we need to be educated on the candidates and when we see men and women running for office that are obviously pushing the Communist agenda on things we need to oppose them. When we see a man, who is definately a sinner, but protecting our Christian faith and freedom we should support him. When politicians are advocating for the murder of babies by abortion I feel it is my duty to vote against them and for a person who is a defender of The Right to Life. When a politician supports homosexuality I have a duty to vote for a person that stands against such open perversion. "For Him that knows to do good and does it not it is sin" - I believe that is true of voting for those who do good (though they are sinners like all of us).
I incline to see it your way, Constantine got control over the Church, something like 501c3 is today, is a compromise with the state. But voting seems to allow independence of the individual (Christian) from the state. On the other hand it does give the state some sort of approval of existence by participating in the voting process. I'm still divided in this issue, but leaning into the lesser error it seems for now that we should oppose clear evil in any way we can, including prayer and actions.
@@antongoring6529 Well... see the laws that are against God that they want to pass, like transgender issues, confused children being mutilated and given hormones, or the resume of drone bombing in the middle east. Voting would have get us out of that. Not even to mention globalist marxist totalitarian takeover, with all that that implies.
@@antongoring6529 That is not at all what I refereed to I didn't mention capitalism as a counter to marxism. What is happening today unless you're willfully blind is really the concept of nation that comes from God, being destroyed by a one world government. So is really now nationalistic movements vs globalists. And this internationalist are extremely progressive they will come for our self determination, liberty, religion, kids, women, will end up destroying the man, the family, they will indoctrinate and chip all forcing a social credit system, just take a look at what the world economic forum is openly saying about 2030. There are very few opposing this at higher level, and you see it clearly by the vicious opposition the get from the media, like Trump or Bolsonaro, is not about political party, is about principles, I would never vote between Hillary or Bush, is just the same, but not so Trump and we got to see that in his actions and the opposition from the globalist. You can cover your eyes and don't see the sign of the times, and say I have nothing to do with this, but Jesus called us to works of righteousness, and that comes in many flavors.
Thank you for the question, Andrew. If you want a more detailed answer, I would suggest looking on websites like Scroll Publishing and The Historic Faith. However, as I understand it, they taught that one should obey the government as much as possible without jeopardizing their allegiance to the Kingdom of God, just as a US citizen in Mexico would obey the Mexican laws as much as possible but would make their first priority to obey US laws. -Lynn
A Word About Covid, Vaccination, and Christian Obedience from brother Steve from Indiana (a fellow Anabaptist) Christians are independent of every human authority by the fact that they respect the divine law of love implanted in their soul. This is the most important fact that governs the Christian’s actions in the world. This Christian may be subjected to external laws and may even lose his external freedom but is not swayed by the declarations of men, nor is he forced by threats of danger or harm to perform an act that is against his conscience. Men upon the earth live for happiness, while privations and sufferings take from them the happiness of which they have come to demand. These losses, for the Christian, far from disturbing his peace and happiness, which is rather fulfilled in consciously carrying out the will of God, may even heighten his happiness. Therefore, the Christian, who is subject to God only, cannot carry out external laws that are contrary to God’s will; he cannot even recognize the duty of obedience or allegiance to anyone other than his true Master. The Christian who swears allegiance to any government--the very act which is regarded as foundational to any state¬--is a direct renunciation of Christ. The Christian cannot promise to obey the will of any man or association of men without knowing ahead of time what that promise commits him to or the consequences of disobedience; for that reason, Christ says “do not swear at all.” Such a promise of obedience shows plainly that the inner law of God does not constitute for him the sole law of his life. Men cannot serve two masters. Christians are obligated to consider the Holy Spirit’s leading in the matter that confronts them at this present time, and always. Let them be reminded that “very few” will be found faithful and enter the Kingdom. Let them be motivated by spiritual considerations and not the dictates of the “State”. The only guide for Christian actions is to be found in the divine law of love that lives within them, which cannot be overridden, checked, or governed by anything. Consider wisely what you are being asked to do by men who are governed by selfishness, money, and vainglory.
You should see if you can get Douglas DelTondo on from JesusWordsOnly.com His take on Paul would likely be much different, and more reasonable to boot.
Great message gentlemen! Phil I will disagree with you on your remarks about the greek word τελειος and its cognates from the same root, that as you said means complete, but in the sense of maturity... sometimes translated as perfect. Jesus uses it with fruit describing the fruit as RIPE. In this way, completion and maturity and perfection. In other words, Genesis 1 declares God's charter: "Let us make man in our image". The NT is has lots of references to SUFFERING as a Christian like Philippians 1:29 "it has been GRACED to y'all to mot only believe but to suffer"... like Paul was. Hebrews 11 and 12 shows this and explains in ch 12:5 - 14 that God scourges those that He loves... (like He did Jesus). It says this is HOW we become Holy (sanctification). 1 Peter 4:1-7 he says we must suffer with Christ INSTEAD of giving into fleshly temptations because "whoever suffers has stopped sinning". This is following the spirit and therefore sanctifies us.
LOVE THIS!!! Thank you my brothers. 🙏💯
AMEN!!!
David I met you.few years back in pa.i actually had lunch at your house..my dad and uncle sam..love your teaching...
Great discussion brothers. May God bless you all. And to David, my personal thanks. Please repeat this format. It's wonderful. But always include brother David Bercot. Thank you for nourishing us spiritualy. God bless. Amador from Puerto Rico.
Unfortunately, David is busy writing books and taking care of his church family as an elder of Chambersburg Christian fellowship. I hope you can understand he can only be on the channel occasionally. I hope you can be blessed by the many brothers who have been discipled by David. Thanks, God bless.
Amen 🙏🏼 God Bless you Sir
I still struggle with this one...
What would we do if we see evil in front of us that we can stop? for example, you see some abuse that is in your power to stop. But you then, should abstain of defending the abused? Are we not convicted by the righteousness of God to act? If we see a person drowning should we jump to save that person, or pray to God? Is lack of faith to take physical action, even if the action comes from charity?
Then we obviously should help, not just pray. Just praying will not help anything. Your example is not so great, for there is no violence needed
Man, think about what you're even saying. There are plenty of wicked things that happen everyday that God allowed to happen (when He could have stopped it or ended it). By your logic God is the most evil being in existence. But God chooses to wait and reserve judgment on Judgment Day. We should imitate Christ and not resist evil but encourage our enemies to repent and reserve judgment until Judgment Day.
@@nolanl3343 So a guy is violating and intending to kill your daughter, you catch him but he is a big dude, but you have a weapon, you wouldn't use it? Man, you know that the apostle carried swords right? One thing is martyrdom for the faith, another is being a coward , and allowing evil to take over, when clearly is in your hands to stop it, because "no violence". This idea that Christian are pacifists is not even Biblical.
All too often I hear Christians in democracies excusing themselves from submission to government authority or honoring and praying for elected officials (per Matthew 22:17-21; Romans 13:1-7; 1 Timothy 2:1-3; 1 Peter 2:13-17, etc.) on the basis that, in a democracy, the government is subject to the people & exists to serve the people, and that they object to the policies of the party in power.
Well, folks, God has news for you. Even in a democracy, you don't get to choose the government - He does. Read 1 Samuel 2:7-8; Job 12:18-19; Psalm 75:6-7; Isaiah 10:5-8; 45:1; Daniel 2:21; 4:17, 32. In a democracy, God gives you the opportunity through voting (or not) to reveal _your_ heart, just as He does for everyone else.
Moreover, Scripture provides no excuse for disobeying or dishonouring governments and elected officials just because we don't like them or what they’re doing. Does anyone suppose the governments under which Jesus and the apostles lived and which took their lives were beacons of righteousness? Or that they were somehow less tolerant of the evils that so many professing Christians today rail against?
Instead of politicising the church and compromising the Gospel in the process, Christians in democracies would do better taking time to consider why God chooses the leaders He installs over them, honouring and obeying those leaders (provided they don't _require_ people to disobey His laws) and praying _for_ them.
So good!
I have almost all of David Bercot's CD's and his Encyclopedia of the Church Fathers on virtually every subject. I , of course have some disagreements, but I believe in the Restoration plea "We are Christians Only, but not the Only Christians" and "In Essentials Unity - in opinions Liberty - In All Things Love." I agree most with Bercot's view of Salvation and the subject of baptism. I don't agree that Christians should not vote. I believe we need to be educated on the candidates and when we see men and women running for office that are obviously pushing the Communist agenda on things we need to oppose them. When we see a man, who is definately a sinner, but protecting our Christian faith and freedom we should support him. When politicians are advocating for the murder of babies by abortion I feel it is my duty to vote against them and for a person who is a defender of The Right to Life. When a politician supports homosexuality I have a duty to vote for a person that stands against such open perversion. "For Him that knows to do good and does it not it is sin" - I believe that is true of voting for those who do good (though they are sinners like all of us).
I incline to see it your way, Constantine got control over the Church, something like 501c3 is today, is a compromise with the state. But voting seems to allow independence of the individual (Christian) from the state. On the other hand it does give the state some sort of approval of existence by participating in the voting process. I'm still divided in this issue, but leaning into the lesser error it seems for now that we should oppose clear evil in any way we can, including prayer and actions.
Where does voting get us?
@@antongoring6529 Well... see the laws that are against God that they want to pass, like transgender issues, confused children being mutilated and given hormones, or the resume of drone bombing in the middle east. Voting would have get us out of that. Not even to mention globalist marxist totalitarian takeover, with all that that implies.
@@digitalsublime that is what you think. It does not. Marxism and capitalism are two sides of the same coin
@@antongoring6529 That is not at all what I refereed to I didn't mention capitalism as a counter to marxism. What is happening today unless you're willfully blind is really the concept of nation that comes from God, being destroyed by a one world government. So is really now nationalistic movements vs globalists. And this internationalist are extremely progressive they will come for our self determination, liberty, religion, kids, women, will end up destroying the man, the family, they will indoctrinate and chip all forcing a social credit system, just take a look at what the world economic forum is openly saying about 2030. There are very few opposing this at higher level, and you see it clearly by the vicious opposition the get from the media, like Trump or Bolsonaro, is not about political party, is about principles, I would never vote between Hillary or Bush, is just the same, but not so Trump and we got to see that in his actions and the opposition from the globalist.
You can cover your eyes and don't see the sign of the times, and say I have nothing to do with this, but Jesus called us to works of righteousness, and that comes in many flavors.
Thanks
Great insights
So question
What did the early church teach and believe about being obedient to government mandates?
Thank you for the question, Andrew. If you want a more detailed answer, I would suggest looking on websites like Scroll Publishing and The Historic Faith. However, as I understand it, they taught that one should obey the government as much as possible without jeopardizing their allegiance to the Kingdom of God, just as a US citizen in Mexico would obey the Mexican laws as much as possible but would make their first priority to obey US laws. -Lynn
A Word About Covid, Vaccination, and Christian Obedience from brother Steve from Indiana (a fellow Anabaptist)
Christians are independent of every human authority by the fact that they respect the divine law of love implanted in their soul. This is the most important fact that governs the Christian’s actions in the world. This Christian may be subjected to external laws and may even lose his external freedom but is not swayed by the declarations of men, nor is he forced by threats of danger or harm to perform an act that is against his conscience.
Men upon the earth live for happiness, while privations and sufferings take from them the happiness of which they have come to demand. These losses, for the Christian, far from disturbing his peace and happiness, which is rather fulfilled in consciously carrying out the will of God, may even heighten his happiness.
Therefore, the Christian, who is subject to God only, cannot carry out external laws that are contrary to God’s will; he cannot even recognize the duty of obedience or allegiance to anyone other than his true Master. The Christian who swears allegiance to any government--the very act which is regarded as foundational to any state¬--is a direct renunciation of Christ.
The Christian cannot promise to obey the will of any man or association of men without knowing ahead of time what that promise commits him to or the consequences of disobedience; for that reason, Christ says “do not swear at all.” Such a promise of obedience shows plainly that the inner law of God does not constitute for him the sole law of his life. Men cannot serve two masters.
Christians are obligated to consider the Holy Spirit’s leading in the matter that confronts them at this present time, and always. Let them be reminded that “very few” will be found faithful and enter the Kingdom. Let them be motivated by spiritual considerations and not the dictates of the “State”. The only guide for Christian actions is to be found in the divine law of love that lives within them, which cannot be overridden, checked, or governed by anything. Consider wisely what you are being asked to do by men who are governed by selfishness, money, and vainglory.
You should see if you can get Douglas DelTondo on from JesusWordsOnly.com His take on Paul would likely be much different, and more reasonable to boot.
"More reasonable"
Hey Phil!!
Great message gentlemen! Phil I will disagree with you on your remarks about the greek word τελειος and its cognates from the same root, that as you said means complete, but in the sense of maturity... sometimes translated as perfect. Jesus uses it with fruit describing the fruit as RIPE. In this way, completion and maturity and perfection. In other words, Genesis 1 declares God's charter:
"Let us make man in our image".
The NT is has lots of references to SUFFERING as a Christian like Philippians 1:29 "it has been GRACED to y'all to mot only believe but to suffer"... like Paul was.
Hebrews 11 and 12 shows this and explains in ch 12:5 - 14 that God scourges those that He loves... (like He did Jesus). It says this is HOW we become Holy (sanctification).
1 Peter 4:1-7 he says we must suffer with Christ INSTEAD of giving into fleshly temptations because "whoever suffers has stopped sinning". This is following the spirit and therefore sanctifies us.
Amen
If you vote, you have no right to complain