John Vervaeke on Fundamentalism Trauma, and Embodying Wisdom
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- Опубліковано 2 лип 2024
- John Vervaeke is professor of Psychology and Cognitive Science at the University of Toronto. He is also the host of the popular UA-cam channel (@johnvervaeke) where he explores what he has coined the #meaningcrisis.
John spoke about his upbringing in a fundamentalist Christian home and what he has learned from that experience after time in therapy, relationships and the nature of reality, and the rehoming of spiritual practises outside of "legacy religions".
Find out more about John's work here: johnvervaeke.com
Read the full transcript here: www.theosthinktank.co.uk/comm...
CHAPTERS
00:00 Intro
03:27 What is sacred to you? John Vervaeke’s answer
11:44 Ultimacy and the relationality of sacredness
17:16 Fundamentalist upbringing, a desire for knowledge, and bridging science and spirituality
24:58 The experience of God: violent atheism, Asian philosophies, and researching mindfulness
30:32 The meaning crisis
33:55 UA-cam, professional persona, rejecting influence, and balancing fame and integrity
41:52 Elizabeth’s concerns: defining the Good, and the over-intellectualisation of philosophy
47:07 Where are the women? Biology, psychology, relationality, and the role of women in philosophy
53:35 Against autodidactic technique extraction, and the case for sapiential and spiritual communities
01:01:26 Reflection and Outro
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Thank you Elizabeth for a great discussion! I hope we have another.
Me too!
I would love to hear another! This was such a beautifully flowing discussion, thank you both 🙏❤️✨
@johnvervaeke You are extraordinary and amazing ❤Bless your heart and thank you for all your hard work ❤ You've helped me in my life. And hearing this, I see how we could relate , on a deeper level , what is beautiful is how you sharing this resonates with me in such a way that I notice compassion starting to emerge in my chest and in my eyes. ❤ Thank you for honoring your mother and for sharing. You have courage. That's a great quality of a person.
what are doing down here john ?> Hey big fan .. i wanted to ask you if that child hood trauma was and always is required in the formation of exceptional adults. Not that you'd ever throw youre child into danger or trauma .. but the world is such that you can't keep those moments at bay .. and when they happen their defining .. and if some how avoided .. would mean a less robustness in the character of that person../
This is now one of my favorite John Vervaeke interviews. Outstanding! Thank you both!
Thank you. That means a lot to hear!
@@thesacredpodcast - You really need to do a show with @PaulVanderKlay when you can. He leads a kind of international fan club for people like @johnvervaeke, Johnathan Pageau, Jordan Peterson, Ian McGilchrist, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and many of the folks you would find at the recent ARC conference. The club is called the "Estuary" and is a very interesting type of discussion group where people can talk about the deep things of life.
Philosophy is finally turning away from the Cartesian solipsism and skepticism and return to *gasp* the love of wisdom.
Paul vanderKlay alerted me to this interview. Wonderful!
You really brought out more of JV than I have ever heard. He is very much the intellectual and speaks so above me. His recent Jordan Peterson exchange left me bewildered. You brought out a compassion in him that are only hinted at in other podcasts
Thanks so much! That is really what we try and do with all our guests.
This is the most relatable talk I have heard with John. Many thanks to you both.
Beautiful ❤ thank you
This was stellar, Elizabeth. I’ve listened to a lot of John and have had him on my channel/podcast a few times, and this is one of the best convo’s I’ve heard.
Thanks Paul, that means a lot!
I really identified with his childhood experience. The trauma it gave me... but also the hunger for transcendence. I have to acknowledge that.
I've listened to a lot of conversations with John Vervaeke, this was the best. Thank you for being so open John, it will help me approach and appreciate your work in a more engaged attentive manner somehow.
Thank you so much for this interview!
This interview demonstrates why I think John is one of the ones most worth paying attention to. He *demonstrates* virtue as much as he talks about it. His fastidious commitment to integrity, to humility, and to agapic love of his students gives real body and legitimacy to all the super-dense academic work he synthesizes--and that makes me inclined to pay attention to what he's saying and reading too. Because even though we do not share a religious belief, I trust him. John, thank you so much for your openness and your courage. I hope my commitment to truth and virtue can be as strong as yours.
Thank you for your comment, and glad you enjoyed!
This idea of relational it’s as the ground of being responds really well to the idea of “thrownness”- of being thrown into a certain time and place of history, in your life. Idk it’s cool
What a wonderful conversation! Thank you both so much for the open seeking, beautiful to watch and hear and feel so moved.
Elizabeth for asking the right, deep and probing questions so eloquently and daring to ask about John's personal background. It makes so much sense why John so profoundly seeks, is comprehensive, articulate and honest, on every level of every subject he inquires into.
And I love the question of why less women have a platform or do less well than men. Well done!!
As a woman I know it's a combination of many things;
- biologically made to sacrifice,
- emotionally, mentally, psychologically putting others first,
- financially less inflated,
- indeed the concept that this isn't news- we all intuit it- imposter syndrome,
- just plain doubt, perfectionism/self-sabotage/uncertainty/ lack of faith
- or lack of right energy, situation at right time
Such a thoughtful comment, thank you! And yes, I agree with your points. So glad you enjoyed the conversation 🙂
Wonderful conversation! Thank you very much, John and Elizabeth! Loved it!
Thank you so much! John: we love you!!!! I subscribed . . .
Hello, more than 30 years ago after a long conversation with a friend,we came to the conclusion that the people don't love each other any more, that the world was losing that "religio" disconnectedness that john is promoting to reconstruct . I'm glad to hear a discourse now, but impossible then to express it more largely, we where talking in small committees and analyzing the problems of society we where aware of . This a never ending story of seekers before and after us in a trans-generational dynamic and good feeling to be part of it, or like someone said the flow....
Thank you all for your investment .
Thanks for a great interview, which UA-cam served up for me because I've watched a lot of John Vervaeke's stuff . So many thought-provoking points! And thanks to John for talking to so many people from such different backgrounds - one day I'm listening to a guy talking about parkour, and the next day I'm listening to you as a Christian theologian. It"s like a virtual Left Bank or Jena!
Oh, and thanks for the blog too - just found it on Substack.
Dr. Vervake may or may not be aware of this, but the second most cited person in Saint Thomas Aquinas Work was Dionysius.
Your video was recommended to me this morning by a friend. I have been following John off and on for a while but his video touched me deeply when John spoke of his childhood. I did not have that kind of experience but I live with someone who did and has never really come to terms with it. I walked in the ways of Christian fundamentalism for a while but was too open minded to remain there. You cannot put God in a box. He continually surprises!
Thanks for sharing, and really glad you enjoyed the episode. 🙂 Do subscribe and check out some of the other discussions we’ve had! A lot of people who found this one have also enjoyed our episode with Iain McGilchrist.
That was a great conversation. As a Christian ve been following z John and his series and found these type of conversation insuring
I discovered The Sacred on Spotify last year. The first episode I listened to was with Nick Cave and Sean O'Hagan. I remember thinking back then that you could have a very productive conversation with John. One year later, here we are...
Glad you’ve stuck around!
@@thesacredpodcast This was a generally ok interview, although it suffered as a result of the rather vague 'where are the women' question towards the end which came across as somewhat accusatory.
@@Joeonline26 By no means intended to be accusatory. If you listen our episode with Jonathan Pageau you’ll hear a similar question asked and some interesting observations made on his part as to why that might be. The hope was to see whether John had any reflections of his own to offer 🙂
The book and movie the Shack focuses on the Trinity as being about relationship as the ground of reality
💙
The Facets Of 4E Cognition
So, what does that research tell us? Many cognitive and learning scientists now explore how the mind, body and environment work together as people think and learn. This perspective-called 4E cognition (1)-gives us a framework to think about learning in 4 ways:
• Embodied in our senses and in our lived, physical reality
• Embedded in a cultural and social context
• Enacted through experiential problem-solving
• Extended across tools, devices, and collaborators
Where are the women? I’m happy to be here. Great interview with John!
Auto didactic learning is not bad. It leads to more deeper discovery, and people questioning the dogmatic implementation of a view that is subjective…
🕊🦋🌹
@@jonmartin3220
Great counterpoint well said thank you. I will make an adjustment in my narrowmindedness. …
I agree with you !
@@jonmartin3220
Yes, and those personality traits are deeper than we can ever imagine therefore, trying to be something different than what we are genetically and conditionally made up to be is a difficult task. Those are good qualities not everyone is comfortable in groups.
I would love to meet your son and support him for how he is …
🦋🕊🌹
Excellent episode, outstanding journey - I aspire to very similar things with my approach and work
51:57 exactly!!! 🌚☄️❤️💫
57:13 where can they go?
Intellectually? The persons and relationships in This Little Corner of the Internet. Imo, maybe because it’s what I know, specifically Paul Vanderklay’s corner of the corner. Because it’s not merely intellectual (as if it could be). True knowledge is communal which is relational. You have to known *as you are known* - St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 8.
Otherwise, anywhere there is genuine love in relationships, which is not synonymous with 100% affirmation of all ideas and self-identities.
Do not frame the relationship of spiritual reality with the burden of religious obligation.
Love is a transcendent property, healing is ultimately about your journey into becoming.
The horizon is never reached. What we discern on the horizon gives us clues as to the direction with which we should aspire.
Great uploads and conversations ....have you had John Lennox on ?
Not yet! But who knows, maybe someday…
46:24 many are at Quantum!
🌚☄️❤️💫
46:18 many are at Quantum, studying integrative medicine!
17:52 we can see… 🌚☄️❤️💫
Roger Zelazny was experimenting with a new style of science fiction and his work is not to be taken seriously.
Near the end of his life his work contained many dark concepts of magic and manipulation such as A Night in the Lonesome October.
50:28 many Women understand consciousness is fundamental.
"where are the women?" - great question. As I see it the meaning crisis is largely driven by a social structure built on male dominance and the suppression of feminine wisdom. Addressing this structural problem will require wise female leadership, and deeper dialogue between men and women on the meaning question. I do hope to see John's "women of wonder" course offered on this platform.
This is happening… 1:02:43
Information is a difference that can make a difference, truth (highest possible symmetry) is information that doesn't change and randomness (self referential noise) is a difference that doesn't make a difference. Truth lives in the macro world, the micro world is uncertain. Truth lives in the past, the future is uncertain. The micro future is formed into the macro past. Every engine takes advantage of a difference. Nature is lazy and everything takes the path of least action. Behavior is built up from a quantum of action in a field. Ratio may be the only thing that is discrete. Action creates the spacetime it inhabits, including the dimensions. As a particular force moves through scale, one force can overtake another, affecting the geometry of the dimensions at that particular scale. There is no fixed geometric grid. The structure of reality is a computational geometry that is fractal in nature. Gravity is a variation of scale. A region of space with less matter has denser time. A region of space with more matter has denser space, a pressure gradient. Information is not stuff it is relationships. The past is material, the future is possibility. Our models contain virtual partials and so we should be looking at virtual dimensions.
Is a rock gong sacred? Does a rock gong never thitherto struck only become sacred once struck? Does it lose its sacredness if its last striking was in the palaeolithic?
Is there sacred in patience, in resignation, in meekness?
Is there sacred in the patience, the resignation, the meekness of the enslaved, the hobbled, the beleaguered?
A herd of elephants, a school of porpoises weeping over a dead elephant calf, a dead porpoise calf, the searching eye of a beached whale, these do fill you with wonder.
Where are the women? We are here:)
I’m so glad!
🌚☄️❤️💫
I joke that the God squad mostly says "Just pray harder, pro. Let Jesus in, bro."
I just see it as a pyramid scheme that says "Go forth and multiply or burn in hell" Gotta have more kids in pews so they can be given more hellfire and brimstone sermons, so they make even more pliable minds.
My life is pretty unhealthy , not enough fresh air not enough people .. this Modern world makes it so easy to avoid human contact.. Why an highly exportoveted person like me would whole in a little apartment makes very little sense. Well how can the general public compete with the like of John V. Jordan B P. The Master and the Em issary by ian Gillquist , the parasitical mind by Gad sad , Hunter Gatherers in the 21st century by Heather Heying and Bret Weinstein? For such a old loser I still listen and read from people who are of the highest quality Another Favorite podcaster of mine is Viva Frei and Robert Barnes . Wednsday Viva Frei and Barnes will do a side bar which means have a guest on . Viva a ex Canadian lawyer current hero Dad and dog owner insists on a 10,000 ovre view of the guest child hood.. IF your guest and you've watched any of there interviews you should know its coming .. I'm certain he does it because he values family and values people and wants every interview to be about a person .. not a celebrity , or a victim or an activist or author of books ... I have watched about 11 of his "meaning crisis " series.. I can't remember why i clicked on any one particular besides seeing john on Lex friedmans podcast .. but i hooked from the foirstr one i watched ..John is a power houise of a mind , of a person, modest almost so close to it being vain lol but its not he truly hates cheap self praise ... .. This is the first time I've ever heard John talk about those two moment's or him speak in detail about his youth .. very generous GIFT.. ..... i'M NOT SAYING the TRauma John experienced wasn't real i totally get both those moments .. My first 8 year of life were sora ruff .. i was convicted of second degree salt with a deadl y weapon at the age of 8 big year for me first time i stole a car too. with an older friend.. Lived with a 6'1" 225pnf alcoholic trucker for a step dad .. he was color blind os whether i had red hair or not didn't seem to matter ,, i got beat alot.. ZMY mom Divorced him mostly because she thought he was gong to kill me.., i started to challenge him .. which just made the beating worse .. so ya.. the next step Dad knew i wa trouble and i got sent to a Christian Youth Ranch in the middle of the dessert... i used to joke about them not having fences .. it inthe middle of teh desert if you ran way you just died.. Itr was unlike any thing i can describe .. But thye were all dedicate christians first and for most than they were house parents and than they worked the cattle ranch .. we all did.... When my 2 years was up i wernt bacK to my home in the big city ... and the things they gave me , the skill , the idea of family and love adn of God .. at 13 i could wortk as hard as any 3 adults byht the time i was 18 i was respected like i was 30 ,, noe i haven't lead the best of life .. i didn't cure cancer and i some hoiw missed out o starting a family ..... But i'm certain to teh depth of my soul . those good Christian people change my life fof the better.,., and whether other kids would ever admit it idk farm lifes tuff chrsitain s too .. but they had the lkove of God in them . and it lead them in every thing they did ..by changing my l;ife .. thery saved who knows how many lives .. its the dark roiad i as heading down that they changed.. to what ever good i was for the world ... the bad i would of been was 10 fold .. .. I'm sorry i ramble .. I would ask john V if that or those moment of ":Trauma or terroir" wha t if those moments avoided , would iof meant that troday John V. was working at there post office .. or didn't have a life partner that he shares so much personal depth with .. Netchex amor fati love thy fate..We can never traumaitze our chiol,drne in hopes of making hrtem great .. that would be so bad.. but no worries becuaser if you have loving parents and more good than evil aroundn you ... those child hood momenbts are going to find you .. and defjne you for better ort worser
Don't give women too much room, your work will fall! Keep working, searching, talking, studying and giving our world more sacred, more intelligence, more wisdom.
Seriously? What a silly comment about ‘not giving women too much room… 😢