Whether or not he's rich, some guy finally did just that: Martin Foag, clarinet maker in Germany, was commissioned to make a Bb octocontrabass clarinet, and the prototype is now nearly finished, undergoing final adjustments. What's more, three other customers have ordered theirs, so a total of four are now going into production. Foag made his to descend to written Low C, sounding Bb of the 64' octave -- so a whole tone below Leblanc's. Foag has posted several photos and some videos of the instrument on his Facebook page.
Brilliant and all true! The second Octocontralto he is now in the museum of La Couture Boussey, but it’s not exposed... we were fortunate enough to take some pictures of it just before Leblanc closed, in August 2008 The one that functions was made as you say in 1971, as a present to Vito Pascucci, founder and director of Leblanc USA, for the 25th anniversary of the company. They used Mr Houvenaghel’s drawings from 1935 to build it, and it was almost perfect!
@@Tysoonroof as you heard, there is only one octocontra alto, and it is in the music instruments museum in La Couture Boussey, in France (Normandy) ; this little village is where Leblanc had their factory, until 2008
I've always wanted to build one out of PVC pipe (Like the fully chromatic hyper bass flute). I also heard a rumor that someone was building one out of PVC with Albert fingering down to low C. Unfortunately multiple emails went unanswered so I have no way of confirming the rumor either.
It would make for an interesting experiment but I think it would take a lot of pre-planning an engineering to get a decent result. Plus, making a whole new mouthpiece of the correct size.
@@BretNewtonComposer I was thinking about it, it may be possible to use a standard contrabass mouthpiece. Buffet's contra-alto uses a bass clarinet mouthpiece and many german bass clarinets use something close to an alto clarinet mouthpiece so it wouldn't be that unreasonable assuming the register vents are properly located. Maybe I'll make a trip to the plumbing store tomorrow and test my theory...
That book is fantastic! I finally ordered my own copy last week! My favorite from the book is when it calls the alto clarinet “the old soup-ladle” Cracks me up every time
I’m thinking about this next generation of instrument makers and where we’ll be. I hope to make instruments, learning under Steven Fox, Roosen Flutes, or some other great maker. What will the future hold? With the standardization and uniformity of woodwind instruments, I sure hope that the rise of a more “boutique” artisan maker will return, with the kind of abilities to make or remake something completely unusual like the old workshops did like Orsi (all those early 20th century designs) and similar
I know for a fact that Steve Fox can't make one. His equipment simply isn't big enough to handle the joint sizes required to make such a large instrument.
apparently it's very hard to build something like that, and not just like scaling up a smaller one. shame though., would love to get my mits on one of those big ones...
Jared De Leon is building an octocontrabass clarinet from scratch. He has documented it on UA-cam. The title of the videos are called The Octocontrabass Clarinet Project Parts 1, 2, 3, etc. I am not sure how many videos he made in this series.
The Vito bass you're waving around as a hand-occupier reminds me that I had a Leblanc-made Vito alto clarinet. It didn't have a low E♭, but it had a left hand A♭/E♭. I found this a really strange design choice, but it did lead to me developing a liking for the extra A♭/E♭ and adding it to my B♭, and to the alto clarinet I got a while after I traded that one. The "new" one does have a low E♭, although I'd like to squeeze in a low D at some point to give it the lower range of a basset horn.
Got something random and unrelated to this video, but odd and interesting nonetheless, and based on the fact that you’re one of the most respected people I know of who play alto clarinet I thought I’d tell you. A guy in my community band found in an old box of mouthpieces handed from music store to school band to collector to him (or something equally wild) an odd mouthpiece. It’s a Gale mouthpiece by MC Gregory, for alto clarinet, handmade. Our guess is that it was probably custom and likely the only one made. Anyway, it’s an amazing mouthpiece, and I was so surprised by its existence I wanted to hear what you had to say about it.
Bret, who told you the octo-contrabass descends to only low D? The D-flat and C touch pieces can be seen clearly to the left of the thumbrest (like on a 340 paperclip contrabass) at the 1:30 marker here: ua-cam.com/video/0wJVlQL5JiI/v-deo.html The two keys are unmistakable at 0:55 here: ua-cam.com/video/WU93vd_00Do/v-deo.html The two keys are noticeable in the first few seconds here: ua-cam.com/video/zChvQCEZnYo/v-deo.html
It was a direct communication from someone who had some experience with the instrument, however, I'm happy if I'm proven wrong (though it is now a moot point as the instrument has been permanently silenced).
Cyrille Mercadier shot a few videos w/ the octocontra-alto... I'm unsure if he owns the instrument or if he simply managed to get his hands on it on those occasions
Cyrille told me that when he restored the octocontra-alto, he made sure to get as much play time out if as possible, because he knew he (nor anyone else) would ever get the chance again. So all of those videos happened within a fairly short time period. He also had a new piece commissioned for it, which he gave me a copy of the score for.
Thank you so much for making this video! I thought someone on the Contrabass-L list said years ago that Lucien Cailliet commissioned an EEEb octocontra to be made at some point, though I don't believe the maker was mentioned. Also, I heard that either this rumored octo for Lucien or the Leblanc EEEb octo was used in the soundtrack to one of the Mission Impossible movies. Have you ever heard anything about either of these rumors?
I remember those rumors from the list as well. As far as I can tell, they're unsubstantiated. I was going to mention that in the video, but it slipped my mind at the time. My guess is that the Mission Impossible tv show (and not the movies) simply used a Contra-Alto in its scoring as the use of that instrument in TV scoring at the time was extremely common. Lalo Schifrin is still alive so it would be possible to ask him.
There was an octocontra alto clarinet on display at Bill Lewington's shop at the bottom of Charing Cross Road in London in 1978, along with all there low clarinets in a huge display from alto downwards. One day in about 1981 I returned to the shop and all these clarinets had gone, somebody said they had been stolen. Anyone know what happened and where this Octocontra alto is now? Or is it the restored instrument in a French museum?
If you read further down in the comments, you'll see Jared's comments. It very well may be that this video was the impetus for his making the instrument.
Even in the 30's, people did shit posts that were way too far for practicality. Would be interesting to have someone make copies, even if it's not them to be sold on the market. Something like in the museum, them having a "press the button" and it play something from it.
When Martin Foag undertook making a new octocontrabass, when it was suggested that he copy the Leblanc prototype, he thought about it, then decided that he'd rather start anew, based on his experience with other Leblanc low clarinets. His development process has taken some three and a half years, involving a series of trials and errors. But, judging from Foag's Facebook videos demonstrating the nearly-completed prototype, it has been well worth all the time and effort. The sound is commanding, and maintains excellent evenness and character from the deepest bass -- down to concert Bb of the 64' octave -- up into the alitissimo.
I much prefer the naming convention the flute family uses, where the instrument an octave lower than the contrabass is called the double contrabass. I guess it's arguable that it's not very important for these naming conventions to generalize well, but if it were, the flute convention wins; an instrument two octaves lower than a contrabass would be a quadruple contrabass rather than a...quindeco-contra-bass? If they really wanted to commit to naming instruments by interval, LeBlanc could at least have given as "quint-bass" rather than "contra-alto."
The three octo-contra-alto rumor sounds like a normal distortion that happens when passing on information. The octo-contra-alto began with three bodies made in 1935. One was the bass and the other two were the altos, then over time the distinction was lost and all three were thought to be octo-contra-altos. Although frankly, I'm not interested in anything with the word "contra" in the title. Once you drop below a normal bass the frequency of the low notes is too low and no longer blends together into a smooth continuous tone. It doesn't sound like a clarinet to me any more.
An instrument that I’d like to learn more about is the piccolo heckelphone. Regular heckelphones are rare enough but piccolo heckelphones have virtually no info on the internet.
Only about 5 were ever made (I think one of those never had the keywork fitted to it). World War I intervened and the company abandoned the idea. In fact, it seems that Heckel has even stopped making Heckelphones.
I have heard of increasing interest within some circles for them. I’m sure Steven Fox could work something out if Heckel would provide bore dimensions and scaling
I would really like to have the low clarinets renamed like this: 1. Eb Contra-alto becomes the Great Bass 2. Bb Contrabass remains as the Contrabass 3. The Octo-contra-alto loses that clunky name and becomes the Great Contrabass 4. The Octo-contrabass can become the true subcontrabass.
The entire family needs to be renamed: Ab sopranino stays as is Eb soprano/piccolo stays as soprano Bb soprano -> Bb alto Eb alto -> tenor Bb bass -> baritone Eb contra alto -> Eb bass Bb contrabass stays as is Eb sub/octocontra alto -> great contrabass Bb sub/octocontrabass -> subcontrabass
The main instrument known as a "Hyperbass Flute" is really a gigantic overtone flute and is in no way related to the standard concert flute. A single experimental instrument also exists (with a video or two on UA-cam), but such an instrument is impractical as it exceeds the current biologic capabilities of the human being.
(Rather than listen to all 12-13 minutes, here's the actual useful info trimmed down to about 2-3 minutes of reading.) BRET NEWTON: A lot of what you hear about these is not wholly accurate. A Standard source, basically reliable, is the pioneering book “Woodwind Instruments and their History” by Anthony Baines. Here’s one paragraph: “so successful are these contrabass clarinets that it is not surprising to hear that a sub-contrabass clarinets, an octave lower yet, have been built. A recent example is the octo-contrabass clarinet by Leblanc in BBBb, of metal, five feet tall and descending down to the bottom of the 32-foot register of the organ, the deepest orchestral or band instrument yet contrived.”////Leblanc made a single Octo-contrabass (Bb) in 1935. And it’s that year that they came out with the “paperclip” model contrabass (Bb) clarinet, and a few paperclip-configuration bass clarinets. These are called the “Houvenaghel” models, referencing Leblanc’s chief WW acoustical designer, Charles Houvenaghel, a much-sought-after such expert, credited with the “paperclip” design. ////This same year, 1935, Paris was hosting a World’s Fair. Leblanc exhibited these instruments there, the paperclip’s benefit being it could be played sitting down. This is the first time I can document the prefix “octo” being contrived to name these instruments. That *one* Bb Octo-contra that Leblanc showed in 1935 appears to descend to a written D, sounding C0, an octave lower than the lowest C on the piano, same note a 32’ organ pipe would produce. (A few, however, believe it was a written low C.)////////An Octo-contra-alto (Eb) was conceived by Leblanc at the same time in the 1930s. Two bodies were built, contrary to sources that say three of these exist (I carelessly put this bad info in my recent “Band Orchestration” book). Of the two octo-Eb bodies built, only one received keywork, not actually finished until about 1971, when a photo of the completed instrument was published.////It was called an “octo-contra-alto” by Leblanc in 1971 because they had put the term “contra alto” in use for their Eb instruments in the 1950s. The “only one finished” info comes to me from the gentleman who has restored the 1971/Eb instrument, Cyrille Mercadier. The 1971 “octo-contra-alto” (Eb) has keywork to a written low C. This sounds the Eb0 a tritone below the piano’s lowest A, so just a m3 away from the lowest note on the Bb “octo” instrument. The 1971/Eb and 1935/Bb “octo” instruments are now in a French museum. [HE DOESN'T EVEN NAME TO MUSEUM HERE, OR PROVIDE UA-cam LINKS TO DEMONSTRATIONS OF THE Eb INSTRUMENT.] Conditions of donation by Leblanc were that the Eb, but not the Bb instrument, be returning to playing condition, and those are the museum’s plans. Both are “permanently on exhibit” there, meaning not available to composers & players for future performance, a disappointment to some of us.////I’ve heard rumors of current attempts to build “octo” instruments, but that’s all I know.
Some rich guy needs to commission an octocontrabass to be custom-built.
pukalo [CDN] Jared De Leon
@@theabclarinet2865 Yeah I saw his video shortly after I made that comment.
@Brandon Cho Productions that is LeBlanc I believe, and it is unfunctional
Whether or not he's rich, some guy finally did just that: Martin Foag, clarinet maker in Germany, was commissioned to make a Bb octocontrabass clarinet, and the prototype is now nearly finished, undergoing final adjustments. What's more, three other customers have ordered theirs, so a total of four are now going into production. Foag made his to descend to written Low C, sounding Bb of the 64' octave -- so a whole tone below Leblanc's. Foag has posted several photos and some videos of the instrument on his Facebook page.
Brilliant and all true!
The second Octocontralto he is now in the museum of La Couture Boussey, but it’s not exposed... we were fortunate enough to take some pictures of it just before Leblanc closed, in August 2008
The one that functions was made as you say in 1971, as a present to Vito Pascucci, founder and director of Leblanc USA, for the 25th anniversary of the company.
They used Mr Houvenaghel’s drawings from 1935 to build it, and it was almost perfect!
Bret made this video after I came to visit you and got all the facts correct!
dont you own one?
@@Tysoonroof as you heard, there is only one octocontra alto, and it is in the music instruments museum in La Couture Boussey, in France (Normandy) ; this little village is where Leblanc had their factory, until 2008
@@CyrilleMercadier oh ok
I've always wanted to build one out of PVC pipe (Like the fully chromatic hyper bass flute). I also heard a rumor that someone was building one out of PVC with Albert fingering down to low C. Unfortunately multiple emails went unanswered so I have no way of confirming the rumor either.
It would make for an interesting experiment but I think it would take a lot of pre-planning an engineering to get a decent result. Plus, making a whole new mouthpiece of the correct size.
@@BretNewtonComposer I was thinking about it, it may be possible to use a standard contrabass mouthpiece. Buffet's contra-alto uses a bass clarinet mouthpiece and many german bass clarinets use something close to an alto clarinet mouthpiece so it wouldn't be that unreasonable assuming the register vents are properly located. Maybe I'll make a trip to the plumbing store tomorrow and test my theory...
@@Jared_De_Leon And so it began...
@@marcusstables2553 Yup
The newest video of octocontrabass being built: ua-cam.com/video/VMBeMWJtjlw/v-deo.html
That book is fantastic!
I finally ordered my own copy last week!
My favorite from the book is when it calls the alto clarinet
“the old soup-ladle”
Cracks me up every time
I’m thinking about this next generation of instrument makers and where we’ll be.
I hope to make instruments, learning under Steven Fox, Roosen Flutes, or some other great maker.
What will the future hold? With the standardization and uniformity of woodwind instruments,
I sure hope that the rise of a more “boutique” artisan maker will return, with the kind of abilities to make or remake something completely unusual like the old workshops did like Orsi (all those early 20th century designs) and similar
I know for a fact that Steve Fox can't make one. His equipment simply isn't big enough to handle the joint sizes required to make such a large instrument.
good luck..
apparently it's very hard to build something like that, and not just like scaling up a smaller one. shame though., would love to get my mits on one of those big ones...
Exactly. A lot of people don't appreciate the level of engineering that goes into the mechanics of these giant instruments.
Jared De Leon is building an octocontrabass clarinet from scratch. He has documented it on UA-cam. The title of the videos are called The Octocontrabass Clarinet Project Parts 1, 2, 3, etc. I am not sure how many videos he made in this series.
Jared's one of my best friends. We talk about the project every few days.
The Vito bass you're waving around as a hand-occupier reminds me that I had a Leblanc-made Vito alto clarinet. It didn't have a low E♭, but it had a left hand A♭/E♭. I found this a really strange design choice, but it did lead to me developing a liking for the extra A♭/E♭ and adding it to my B♭, and to the alto clarinet I got a while after I traded that one. The "new" one does have a low E♭, although I'd like to squeeze in a low D at some point to give it the lower range of a basset horn.
Got something random and unrelated to this video, but odd and interesting nonetheless, and based on the fact that you’re one of the most respected people I know of who play alto clarinet I thought I’d tell you.
A guy in my community band found in an old box of mouthpieces handed from music store to school band to collector to him (or something equally wild) an odd mouthpiece.
It’s a Gale mouthpiece by MC Gregory, for alto clarinet, handmade. Our guess is that it was probably custom and likely the only one made.
Anyway, it’s an amazing mouthpiece, and I was so surprised by its existence I wanted to hear what you had to say about it.
Bret, who told you the octo-contrabass descends to only low D? The D-flat and C touch pieces can be seen clearly to the left of the thumbrest (like on a 340 paperclip contrabass) at the 1:30 marker here:
ua-cam.com/video/0wJVlQL5JiI/v-deo.html
The two keys are unmistakable at 0:55 here:
ua-cam.com/video/WU93vd_00Do/v-deo.html
The two keys are noticeable in the first few seconds here:
ua-cam.com/video/zChvQCEZnYo/v-deo.html
It was a direct communication from someone who had some experience with the instrument, however, I'm happy if I'm proven wrong (though it is now a moot point as the instrument has been permanently silenced).
Cyrille Mercadier shot a few videos w/ the octocontra-alto... I'm unsure if he owns the instrument or if he simply managed to get his hands on it on those occasions
He is the repair tech who restored the instrument.
Cyrille told me that when he restored the octocontra-alto, he made sure to get as much play time out if as possible, because he knew he (nor anyone else) would ever get the chance again. So all of those videos happened within a fairly short time period. He also had a new piece commissioned for it, which he gave me a copy of the score for.
This octocontralto is now to be shown in the woodwins museum in La Couture Boussey. The museum also hosts the octocontrabass clarinet.
Jared de Leon (France) I believe is attempting to build a octocontrabass clairnet
Check out Jared De Leon's channel, he's the guy building an octo-contrabass.
ua-cam.com/channels/42m4cE3igWii463WUtMDVg.html
Thank you so much for making this video! I thought someone on the Contrabass-L list said years ago that Lucien Cailliet commissioned an EEEb octocontra to be made at some point, though I don't believe the maker was mentioned. Also, I heard that either this rumored octo for Lucien or the Leblanc EEEb octo was used in the soundtrack to one of the Mission Impossible movies. Have you ever heard anything about either of these rumors?
I remember those rumors from the list as well. As far as I can tell, they're unsubstantiated. I was going to mention that in the video, but it slipped my mind at the time. My guess is that the Mission Impossible tv show (and not the movies) simply used a Contra-Alto in its scoring as the use of that instrument in TV scoring at the time was extremely common. Lalo Schifrin is still alive so it would be possible to ask him.
There was an octocontra alto clarinet on display at Bill Lewington's shop at the bottom of Charing Cross Road in London in 1978, along with all there low clarinets in a huge display from alto downwards. One day in about 1981 I returned to the shop and all these clarinets had gone, somebody said they had been stolen. Anyone know what happened and where this Octocontra alto is now? Or is it the restored instrument in a French museum?
Jared de Leon (France) I believe is attempting to build a octocontrabass clairnet 😅
A UA-camr by the name of Jared De Leon has started making his own octocontrabass clarinet
If you read further down in the comments, you'll see Jared's comments. It very well may be that this video was the impetus for his making the instrument.
Jared de Leon is trying to reconstruct an octo contrabass clarinet
Even in the 30's, people did shit posts that were way too far for practicality. Would be interesting to have someone make copies, even if it's not them to be sold on the market. Something like in the museum, them having a "press the button" and it play something from it.
i wonder if the museum would let someone take exact measurements to make a copy?
When Martin Foag undertook making a new octocontrabass, when it was suggested that he copy the Leblanc prototype, he thought about it, then decided that he'd rather start anew, based on his experience with other Leblanc low clarinets. His development process has taken some three and a half years, involving a series of trials and errors. But, judging from Foag's Facebook videos demonstrating the nearly-completed prototype, it has been well worth all the time and effort. The sound is commanding, and maintains excellent evenness and character from the deepest bass -- down to concert Bb of the 64' octave -- up into the alitissimo.
I much prefer the naming convention the flute family uses, where the instrument an octave lower than the contrabass is called the double contrabass. I guess it's arguable that it's not very important for these naming conventions to generalize well, but if it were, the flute convention wins; an instrument two octaves lower than a contrabass would be a quadruple contrabass rather than a...quindeco-contra-bass? If they really wanted to commit to naming instruments by interval, LeBlanc could at least have given as "quint-bass" rather than "contra-alto."
The three octo-contra-alto rumor sounds like a normal distortion that happens when passing on information. The octo-contra-alto began with three bodies made in 1935. One was the bass and the other two were the altos, then over time the distinction was lost and all three were thought to be octo-contra-altos.
Although frankly, I'm not interested in anything with the word "contra" in the title. Once you drop below a normal bass the frequency of the low notes is too low and no longer blends together into a smooth continuous tone. It doesn't sound like a clarinet to me any more.
An instrument that I’d like to learn more about is the piccolo heckelphone. Regular heckelphones are rare enough but piccolo heckelphones have virtually no info on the internet.
Only about 5 were ever made (I think one of those never had the keywork fitted to it). World War I intervened and the company abandoned the idea. In fact, it seems that Heckel has even stopped making Heckelphones.
I have heard of increasing interest within some circles for them.
I’m sure Steven Fox could work something out if Heckel would provide bore dimensions and scaling
Heckel won't provide dimensions to anyone. Everything there is a trade secret.
So freakin sick
I would really like to have the low clarinets renamed like this:
1. Eb Contra-alto becomes the Great Bass
2. Bb Contrabass remains as the Contrabass
3. The Octo-contra-alto loses that clunky name and becomes the Great Contrabass
4. The Octo-contrabass can become the true subcontrabass.
The entire family needs to be renamed:
Ab sopranino stays as is
Eb soprano/piccolo stays as soprano
Bb soprano -> Bb alto
Eb alto -> tenor
Bb bass -> baritone
Eb contra alto -> Eb bass
Bb contrabass stays as is
Eb sub/octocontra alto -> great contrabass
Bb sub/octocontrabass -> subcontrabass
What about the 'Hyperbass' Flute
The main instrument known as a "Hyperbass Flute" is really a gigantic overtone flute and is in no way related to the standard concert flute. A single experimental instrument also exists (with a video or two on UA-cam), but such an instrument is impractical as it exceeds the current biologic capabilities of the human being.
a youtuber by the name of Jared De Leon is currently attempting to build an octocontrabass.
It makes me very uncomfortable that he keeps stroking the bass clarinet
Oh, I'm sure it doesn't mind... bass clarinets never get enough love!
Just came across this video again, I forgot I made this comment
(Rather than listen to all 12-13 minutes, here's the actual useful info trimmed down to about 2-3 minutes of reading.) BRET NEWTON: A lot of what you hear about these is not wholly accurate. A Standard source, basically reliable, is the pioneering book “Woodwind Instruments and their History” by Anthony Baines. Here’s one paragraph: “so successful are these contrabass clarinets that it is not surprising to hear that a sub-contrabass clarinets, an octave lower yet, have been built. A recent example is the octo-contrabass clarinet by Leblanc in BBBb, of metal, five feet tall and descending down to the bottom of the 32-foot register of the organ, the deepest orchestral or band instrument yet contrived.”////Leblanc made a single Octo-contrabass (Bb) in 1935. And it’s that year that they came out with the “paperclip” model contrabass (Bb) clarinet, and a few paperclip-configuration bass clarinets. These are called the “Houvenaghel” models, referencing Leblanc’s chief WW acoustical designer, Charles Houvenaghel, a much-sought-after such expert, credited with the “paperclip” design. ////This same year, 1935, Paris was hosting a World’s Fair. Leblanc exhibited these instruments there, the paperclip’s benefit being it could be played sitting down. This is the first time I can document the prefix “octo” being contrived to name these instruments. That *one* Bb Octo-contra that Leblanc showed in 1935 appears to descend to a written D, sounding C0, an octave lower than the lowest C on the piano, same note a 32’ organ pipe would produce. (A few, however, believe it was a written low C.)////////An Octo-contra-alto (Eb) was conceived by Leblanc at the same time in the 1930s. Two bodies were built, contrary to sources that say three of these exist (I carelessly put this bad info in my recent “Band Orchestration” book). Of the two octo-Eb bodies built, only one received keywork, not actually finished until about 1971, when a photo of the completed instrument was published.////It was called an “octo-contra-alto” by Leblanc in 1971 because they had put the term “contra alto” in use for their Eb instruments in the 1950s. The “only one finished” info comes to me from the gentleman who has restored the 1971/Eb instrument, Cyrille Mercadier. The 1971 “octo-contra-alto” (Eb) has keywork to a written low C. This sounds the Eb0 a tritone below the piano’s lowest A, so just a m3 away from the lowest note on the Bb “octo” instrument. The 1971/Eb and 1935/Bb “octo” instruments are now in a French museum. [HE DOESN'T EVEN NAME TO MUSEUM HERE, OR PROVIDE UA-cam LINKS TO DEMONSTRATIONS OF THE Eb INSTRUMENT.] Conditions of donation by Leblanc were that the Eb, but not the Bb instrument, be returning to playing condition, and those are the museum’s plans. Both are “permanently on exhibit” there, meaning not available to composers & players for future performance, a disappointment to some of us.////I’ve heard rumors of current attempts to build “octo” instruments, but that’s all I know.