In a world where a 3ft purple gnome can fuck a 7ft dragonborn I think gender is one of the least weird things for people to take into account. I'm honestly relieved that I can play as a non binary pansexual without characters commenting on it in the game. I get enough trouble irl as it is. Being able to relax and just be a person without it being commented on I think is more important than making a big deal out of it. I can't really see how that is harmful representation when the representation is just being viewed as a normal person in a world where that makes total sense and there isn't centuries of religious oppression.
I agree, getting hassled by NPCs wouldn't be the right call for this game at all (or arguably any game, that'd be a tough one to tackle imo). The point I was making about Nocturne is that, because her journal reveals that she WAS hassled, the world of the game canonically has this kind of prejudice. Or, equally likely, the writers responsible did not consider the implications of how Nocturne was included on the broader game world.
As a queer overthinker myself I think you brought up some interesting points, though I may not agree with them all. Personally I find the lack of ‘labels’ somewhat liberating, knowing that you can be with whoever you want and be accepted pretty much without a question is something I live for. I love that the lines are blurry and everyone’s sexuality seemingly fluid. When it comes to queerness not being visible I think one needs to act willingly blind to not see it cuz it’s pretty visible from the very beginning. In the character creator there is no restriction when it comes to your body/voice/pronouns, I imagine that for someone the simple freedom of having a masc body with fem genitalia (or viceversa) without the game making it impossible might be pretty shocking lol. Same goes for the flamboyant Astarion, Gale pining for you no matter who you are when you get good approval, Shadowheart thirsting after Karlach at least that one time, not to mention Halsin bringing some poly rep! When it comes to trans rep I do think BG3 could have been more ambitious, like giving customization options for surgery scars or the ability to mix and match with fem and masc heads instead of locking them to a specific body type (something mods have achieved). To have a romanceble trans companion would have been amazing but alas we have to yet again stick to head canoning characters if we want that representation… I have to say that seeing BG3 characters as shiny toys to bump at one another like barbies is crazy to me because I got so invested in their stories that being able to become intimate with them seemed more like a bonus than the main motivator. But I will fully admit that that’s most likely a me thing😅 Still, the freedom to roleplay and make every playthrough different to the last with the freedom of romance is important imo. Perhaps La’zel and Shadowheart can be enemies to lovers in your 1st playthrough but the second time around you let them kill each other. Wyll can use intimidation, as well as persuasion, so you could roleplay him as a fallen hero, good turned evil. In the end what makes BG3 so fun is the freedom to tell stories with what you have. It isn’t as limitless as DnD can be but I find it amazing how much you can do in this game to make each playthrough a little unique! Also we stan Kim
I completely agree with you! Player freedom can’t exist to this degree if we also set parameters and label everything and everyone. The idea that you could have a playthrough where the most unlikely things technically could happen, is what makes this game so remarkable for anyone to build the reality they want to see, or avoid things if they wish. That’s each player’s prerogative. Also, like most things on the internet, the obnoxious are often the loudest. But even if obnoxious folks are harping on about the naughty bits, so what? (is my reaction) I agree 100% that the romances were a bonus to how invested I was in the character’s actual stories. I think it’s easy to assume that everyone uses this game as a sex sim, but I think that’s a false representation of the greater whole of us who are actually invested in building a meaningful story of one’s own journey through this game! I appreciate reading everyone’s thoughts on this and the video itself.
why would surgery scars be a thing in a universe where you can literally just magic yourself into the form you want? thats.. thats really fucking dumb mate.
I so much agree with this! Maybe it's because I'm a problematic bi, but i feel super catered to when games let me date whoever. It's a nice change of pace from reality where I'm too gay for the straights and too straight for the gays. The only other place I get my fix in is farm sims. While I understand the panification of npcs can be off-putting to some, it really strikes a chord with me. Praising the freedom is absolutely what I intend on doing when I finally get to give the game a shot! That said, I'm all for games with specific representation! As long as they offer the same amount of freedom in a broad sense, options less specifically. I even enjoy the black and white queercoding in the life is strange games, so I'm easy to cater to tbh.
Considering most D&D games I know of turns into stories of chaotic bisexuals killing stuff, I think BG3 was just sticking close to the source material. Lol
I don't know how long you played the game, but companions were absolutely "gay" to me without me actively asking them to be "gay". That aside, there is a prominent gay couple in the game, and while I agree that transgender representation is reduced to a very minor character, one of the weirdest and longest collection quests in Act 3 is connected vividly to drag. Also, the whole character creation process will inevitably let you cross path with the chance of playing a bearded, female voiced character with a penis or any other combination, and you are openly invited to experiment with that. (Even more so now that some parts can jiggle.) Claiming that there is no contact with these concepts if you don't actively invite these concepts into your game is (partially) incorrect. In fact, I dare say that due to the freedom you have in the safe space of your own home without any morality system to tell you how to handle this "properly", the creation system alone invites you to let your mind wander a bit and get more comfortable with a bit of bias when it comes to certain topics. That said, you keep asking for a more realistic representation of a couple of things - which I can agree with - but then you find it..."weird" that evil deeds are rewarded with sex in the game, as if that's somehow not an actual realistic representation of how things work in our world. Evil deeds get rewarded in reality every day. It's just how things are. What's more interesting is that many players have actively decided AGAINST recruiting Minthara and the smut because they couldn't and wouldn't want to be responsible of druid grove and tiefling genocide DESPITE the fact that there is really no punishment for doing so...except their own conscience. And that is an interesting point that I was missing in your contemplations. Rest assured I enjoyed your video and your thoughts, however. I wouldn't have offered mine in return, otherwise. Cheers
Really enjoyed reading your counter-points here. Thanks for taking the time to respond! It's a great point that having those options in the character creator invites some level of contact and experimentation - another commenter also mentioned the character creator discussion felt missing here. I think I shoulda said something about it after all. I do still find the Minthara scene weird though. I don't think it's intended as a commentary on how evil is rewarded; in fact, outside of the sex scene, going that route is mechanically way worse because you're denied all the quest items and vendors from the tieflings in later acts, many of which are just the best items of their class in the whole game. Going good is mechanically a far greater reward! But then, the good guy romance scenes are comparatively far more tame; which makes me feel like the reward for the player, not just their character, is to check out this hot elf action.
@@internetcouch Originally, playing that way gave you a drow paladin which has a huge number of mechanical bonuses. The drow bit can also be done using disguise self, but still, very useful. And paladin is just an amazing class. And the tiefling massacre downside is overstated. Easy enough to avail of the services, then wipe them out and move on to last light. And now? You can save the tieflings, knock out minthara, and pick her up at moonrise. Best of both worlds, no mechanical downside.
I think most people, well, most players that are on their second run or more at least, avoid killing the goblins more often than not due to 1) Bad feelings, as you said, and 2) You are locked out of a few quests and appearances that are, though mostly minor, still present throughout the rest of the game because the tieflings need to live in order to access them. While there are quest changes by taking the goblins' side instead, I think Larian really focused consequences in the action they figured most people would take in regards to the Grove. Luckily, Minthara, an great companion just as deep as the rest of them, can be experienced by more people now with the new patch!
I was happy to hear Abigail's voice. I knew she was in the game somewhere, and then finally meeting Nocturne with Shadowheart in the party was so nice. I must confess I didn't link the text about the wrong name in her diary to her being a trans character experiencing trans experiences. Perhaps that's my barbarian brain speaking, but with the whole Shar cult giving their followers Shar approved names, I was thinking in that direction, that perhaps when Nocturne acted differently than was expected, perhaps some would call her by another name. That said, I can see now how seen on its own it matches with the trans experience and also adds to Shadowheart's kindness rather than her zealotry.
This is a good thing, it’s called player choice, this is to be lauded, not criticized. The game was written for everyone. Though I do think the characters should comment on nudity, that would be hilarious.
Although queer storylines are more reliant on not doing evil-there are two (three?) more NPC couples who deserve your mention: (1) Isobel & Dame Aylin (extremely overt, complete with parental disapproval), (2) Ironhand gnome gay couple in Ironforge, and (3) Barcus & Wulbren (representation of a full Act 1-3 unrequited love that isn't hetero... is one of the more important things I think needed to exist).
I should further mention that, although I am only at the end of Act 2, Barcus and Wulbren are reading as a (unrequited) "Queer Platonic Relationship" which has been required reading for an asexual like me. I so badly need to finish the game so I can discuss it with folks. I am perfectly fine with spoilers (I've consumed tons of videos on the game) if anyone wants to chime in!
Ooh point one is super interesting - do you know if the parental disapproval is specifically tied to gender? I knew about the relationship (there's some footage of them reunited and smoochin' in the video) but if there's specifically prejudice related to them being f/f it throws another wrench into my understanding of the world.
@@internetcouch I don't think so... I went ahead and transcribed what she said. There was a dramatic non-written ellipsis before "immortal", and a written ellipsis before "strange". She gives this dialogue when you can finally interrogate her about Ketheric Thorm: "Do you believe in love at first sight? //responses, reactions along the lines of 'me, too!'// Lucky for me she felt the same way. But my father was skeptical. Aylin is *immortal*, after all. I understand it's[...] strange. There's an imbalance between us, certainly. But I suppose loving Aylin felt the same as loving myself. It was natural." Unless I can find more in-game reading materials or in-game conversations on the topic, that is just that. I hope to see the storyline resolved that we find out why / how Isobel died back then (I personally suspect she wasn't killed at all, but just made to seem dead so Shar/Myrkul/Absolute could manipulate Ketheric and then give her back). I honestly felt a bit let down by it as well-just a *"she is (/will be) too old for my daughter"* type of protectiveness more appropriate to their being an interracial (inter-species?) couple, and in specific reference to their difference in age and imbalance of power. It feels like that dramatic ellipsis before "immortal" was so loaded that even the voice actor wanted to say it in such a way to imply "it's because she is a woman" because *that* is more couched in the player's reality. But alas, I don't have much hope there will be representation of relationships surviving homophobia in Act 3. I hope that, despite being myself a trans woman, I won't be too let down by the analogous transphobia example (Nocturne). I know there is some kind of hideaway with diaries that Shadowheart made out of fear for losing her memories of her friend, and I fully intend to reunite her with this hideaway if I can (plus I am in the habit of exploring every nook and cranny for secrets). Plus, it is worth mention that Shar's order is literally evil and probably didn't do much to dispel any out-group behaviors their students exhibited. But even if I will feel represented in Shadowheart & Nocturne's storyline (when I get to that part of Act 3), I think it may ultimately be bittersweet for the fact there was only ever one -phobia and it was transphobia.
I assume by parental disapproval you mean Ketheric which I personally didn't read as being related to the gay thing. I saw it as a more of a traditional "I won't let you take my daughter" thing.
@@jojak0512 I don't think your interpretation is mutually exclusive with mine. For queer folk like me, "traditional" is a hella loaded word that almost always includes the passing down of irrational generational trauma-stories like "my parents disapproved of my s/o, so now I have to do it to you, too" and "my parents demonstrated homophobia, so now I have to do it to you, too". I think that that kind of "traditional" sentimentality is just disguised ego-the ever-present threat that if you do something differently, you're admitting/accusing the previous way of being wrong. And parents don't want to tarnish their parents honor, so off comes the belt for 10 lashes "_just like they did to me_"!
To be fair, your compaions seem to flirt with each other in the background as you go along, so them all being able to be with any of the others if you play one as origins isn't too farfetched The game indicates their was some level of care between Astarion and Sebastion, which is why that one gets to him so much Off the top of my head, two of the male gnomes you save at Grymforge are a couple, Isobel and Dame Aylin are a couple, and I sware Alfria and Lakrissa seem to become a couple over the course of the game. I do agree that it is unfair that the confirmed trans character is only revealed through a layer of an ingame series of events that have to play out just right. I didn't find out they were trans until my second playthrough (blew up the area for funzies after I got the guy out in my first playthrough, didn't even know about the noblestalk being there) However in regards about reading their journal, you read everyone's journal you come across, so the question of this one specific characters invastion of privacy seems a bit excessive to me Also though their may be only one confirmed trans character, there are some other characters that seem to potentually be gender diverse, like with the circus leader. Lucretious seems like she might have been based off of a drag queen with the way her personality come across Of course others have mention the character creator, but to be fair I don't think that's relevent to the discussion as that all about player choice not something that exists in every playthrough regardless of the player even finding out
@@WraithReaper09 so I was not inaccurate in my assessment of the character. Though now I don't know if it's the character themselves or the voice actor behind the character that's coming through in the performance Regardless I do think Drag Queens seem to have this type of self-confidence that just shines across in their personalities and performaces, and it's always awesome to see
The core mechanic of tabletop DnD is to fuck up the world, that DM meticulously crafted. In one of the adventures my friend simply used teleport spell on gigantic adamantium door, sold it in the city and hired an army to fuck up BBEG. BG3 is giving people THE closest experience to a tabletop session. ITs written to be a self insert power fantasy where you can lay bitches and slay witches... or lay witches and slay bitches.... And that is the point! You want to move the plot? Move the plot! Want to fuck a dragon? Hope to roll that sweet nat 20! Want to be an almighty hero? Be one! Want to be a murderhobo? Here is Dark Urge! Want to be a transgender person? Be whoever you are! Developers give you an amazing world and simply saying "Your role is up to you. Be yourself or be someone else! All limited only by your imagination". Games like Mass Effect and Witcher are good becouse they make you feel like Shepard or Geralt. But they limit you to act like them. In the end you'll make choice based on logic of Shepard or Geralt. You'll try to save everyone, you'll be a hero no matter wat. Geralt always will have 3 swords and Shepard will save the galaxy no matter what. Games like Skyrim and BG3 is great, becouse they give all the tools to be the master of your own adventure. You represent only yourself. And it's only up to YOU how this world will unfold. P.s: here one example of a role playing that everyone expected from BG3 (and quite honestly get it) ua-cam.com/users/shortsJp0tADFg9Mo?si=PKHhjcaTtrsxXJin
I am a little confused by the idea that it somehow makes for better characterization or story to have characters with fixed sexualities. I don't understand how making a character straight tells us more about who they are except for the fact that they are straight, and I don't understand how it diminishes the actual story and emotional impact to have characters be romanceable regardless of what you are. Arguing that Shadowheart wouldn't romance Lae'zel, or that Wyll wouldn't romance Minthara, is an entirely separate conversation regarding whether or not Origin characters should be able to do things that are out of character for them. I remember in KOtOR that you couldn't have a relationship with Bastilla if you were a female character. I have to question how this adds depth or characterization rather than actively taking away from it by locking the player out of a plotline because of a choice made in character creation. Adding player freedom isn't something that subtracts from the story, it adds to it.
I hadn't really thought of it in the context of "Wish Fulfilment" as you describe, but I think it's a very apt description. I don't think I've yet reached a concrete opinion on the subject of whether companion sexuality should be mutable in RPGs. I do like the idea of characters having defined personal traits that establish who they are within their world, and I also think that every character being always sexually attracted to the player is feeding the sex-obsessed nightmare that our reality (particularly online) has become. You can make the most revolting gith selunite cleric possible, and Shadowheart will still want to bang. A player need never feel challenged, rejected, or reminded of the real world as they play. On the other hand I also think it's reasonable to argue that 'canonicity' doesn't matter in a game that's fundamentally about player choice. There is no "true" path to the game, and the characters aren't real people. They are actors used to tell stories, and we take a role in deciding what story gets told. Shadowheart could have a sapphic adventure of love and redemption and it would be a perfectly valid playthrough. So is one where she gets the cold shoulder by the paladin she dotes for and then gets kicked off of a ledge for making the mistake of trying to murder an innocent for her dark god right in front of that same paladin. We get the themes we tell the game to pursue, and players who tell the game they want to sex up a character are getting exactly what they want. A player need never feel challenged, rejected, or reminded of the real world as they play. I'm honestly not sure which approach is 'best'. I repeated the last sentence of the above paragraphs on purpose, as I think whether we view that statement as a positive or negative is an entirely personal decision. I don't yet know what my own opinion is - but I've certainly been enjoying the game.
Agreed! Interesting point about how the NPCs having mutable traits can be considered as playing a role themselves. In that interpretation the NPCs are roleplaying along with you - changing around certain details to fill in the story you're trying to tell. That almost makes it feel more like a tabletop game than I'd even given it credit for; where in games at the table, players are all working together to tell the story that's most interesting for everybody. Fascinating stuff to mull over.
so i haven't played thoroughly yet (80hrs good run 40hrs evil run), but despite the lack of good trans rep, i've come across multiple explicit same sex couples/couplings (SPOILERS AHEAD): isobel x aylin in good run alfira x lakrissa in good run (no dark urge) an npc lady whose name i forget leaves her husband for another woman in act 3 (optional scene) the druid in sharess's caress x mindflayer lady (optional scene but hard to miss) and im not sure if you can count this as a "real" coupling, but astarion and the spawn who curses him in cazador's dungeon. i only include this one despite astarion's hundreds of other victims because of the clear romantic details the man spoke of. notably a lot of wlw here, i haven't really seen much mlm. again, i haven't thoroughly played the game, so im sure im missing some couplings here. in any case its a little tiring seeing so many wlw pairs without mlm to balance it out. i know many straight men are uncomfortable with homosexuality between men, i wish there was like a main quest character dude with a husband or smth. in any case as wlw myself ive been having a field day with this game lmao
@@willroth7521 I was replying to this comment. See above me, this is called a reply. I was replying to where they say there's no trans characters in the game...
thank you so much for overthinking baldur's gate 3, this was such a delight to watch and definitely got me thinking more about what good writing and good representation looks like in games
I'm really glad you got something out of it! BG3 is still a big positive in the direction of good writing/good rep in video games, but my ideal world would involve this kind of fun alongside more challenging works. Basically this should be part of a package that includes many additional works by many additional creators, rather than the single standard all companies aspire to.
Some people read erotic fiction and romance. Some people avoid it. You have the freedom to avoid the romance and sex if you choose, that’s kind of the point. The companions have very deeply emotional stories, and which direction those stories go depends entirely on how you treat them, what you say and do. In at least one case, that story goes even deeper if you romance the character-because they trust you even more. It’s not all about sex, but that part is not only fun, it can also be deeply meaningful. Or not. Your choice. You made some interesting points, and there is definitely a debate to be had about “playersexual” companions. But I think this all has a deeper meaning and impact…for those who need or want it. Maybe that’s not something you want/need, so you think it’s trivial. But that’s *your* perspective. And that’s the brilliant thing about the design of this game! It’s remarkably responsive to the player’s choices, both big and small. It’s deliberate and I think it’s amazing.
Personally I’m quite upset at your statement that these romances are written for fun and not depth. I found the Shadowheart romance to be quite meaningful, and I’ve heard great things about some of the other ones as well. I could go more in depth about what I liked about the romance, but I don’t wanna risk spoiling anything. Really though I think the romances have a lot more to them than you’re giving them credit for. As for LGBT representation, you do have a point, but it does exist. There are quite a few same sex couples you can encounter, and while many of them aren’t at all important to the game, there is a specific lesbian couple that very much so are important. Also you seem to either ignore or just be unaware of the fact that your companions will flirt with you even if you’re the same gender as them. In fact, I’ve had ever man make a move on me, and only 2 of the women. As for transgender representation though you’re 100% correct. Truthfully I don’t even understand why it was included if it wasn’t going to be at all expanded on.
I am an asexual and for me it just feels like there's no real friendship. Either you're romantically interested in a character, which means you'll get more dialogues, more scenes, more content, or you turn them down and that's the end of it. Of course there are still the companion quests and their quest related conversations, but it just feels empty. I want caring bromance like John Sheppard and Garrus Vakarinan had, I want to be bffs with Karlach without having her tell me how she's gonna 'ride me till i see the stars' first few hours in the game.
This is simply not true. Karlach in particular is your best friend regardless of wether you choose to romance her or not (unless you kill her of course).
@@darkguardian50 Its objectively true for a lot of other characters though, the romance option for them is the completion of their story and the friendship is not.
@@defiante1 I'm not saying its not. I'm simply saying its not always true, as the OP stated. Generalizations and blanket statements are never good, especially if you are trying to make an important point.
Are you seriously complaining that players can choose to be in same sex relationships or not?? If a straight player wants to have a straight romance…. that’s fine. Even as a gay man I like to have that option for a playthrough.
I believe that they’re making the argument that by making every character have a nondescript sexuality the game makes it easy for the player to ignore that all the characters are Bi or queer which has the potential to be harmful for queer visibility.
@@Cyborgninja001 It seems like their problem is people who are “homophobic” don’t need to see it if they choose not to. Which honestly, is a super immature way of looking at it. He’s not going to win anyone over by forcing things on them. BG3 did a great job of representation without being preachy.
@@Aureilius2112but I mean, that point even doesn’t really stand, since there are multiple gay characters in the game outside of the companions, and even if you don’t romance a companion in the end, if you have good approval with them, almost all of them will shoot their shot with the player so you can’t really be homophobic and not have to deal with queerness in this game
I've only watched 2 min of this but I want to say what I was thinking the whole time I played this game "Why the fuck is everyone on Faerun pansexual?"
Yeah, I keep having people tell me that the companions are playersexual, but it seems more like they're all just flat-out pansexual. Which I get from a perspective of not wanting to make players feel left out, but from a characterization perspective it feels weird to me that they don't have individual sexualities in any meaningful way.
I appreciate the video, I like the idea that you’ve started to go down with this particular topic, but I do feel it doesn’t quite hit the mark that you might have been going for. Like you’ve pointed out yourself, as an outsider for a particular part of the LGBTQ+ community, I can only speak for what I’ve seen. Taking Nocturne as an example, their inclusion has been no different for much of Trans representation that I have seen within modern gaming in how it has been handled. The only other instance I can genuinely think of right now is Claire in Cyberpunk 2077, where if I’m remembering correctly, it’s hardly mentioned or can be flat out missed if people don’t actively pick up on it/ ignore her questline. I know it’s not great in saying that ‘at least we finally have actual characters who are indeed trans’ which is barely pushing the envelope in the representing that we need, but for them to be included (and voiced by actual trans women) in the first place is leagues beyond what the industry once was. I’m still waiting for a trans main character/lead (that isn’t player made) but do I think that is going to happen anytime soon? Unfortunately not. Also, I’m still wondering where the trans masc representation is as well? I was waiting 20 years for good lesbian representation in video games too (I can still argue to a point that we don’t actually have that due to F/F scenes often feeling like how straight men view lesbian couples). It takes time for any representation in an industry that is arguably mostly pushed for straight white men. I don’t think taking BG3 as an example for where this could have been improved helps any points being made simply because of how open it is about sexuality in general, but rather than being specific, it’s as wide as possible to include everyone, which I think is arguably better than being as narrow as possible to fill particular roles or even stereotypes that often seem to occur when developers do try. I would argue, however, that it does leave something of a sour taste for those that are asexual, because dear god the companions were so horny (and still are, but slightly toned down now) when the game launched that it was like being punched in the face by it. You can still reject them, just as a straight, bi or gay player can reject any advances, but is it good representation for that particular community when a game is rather sexual in the first place and has no discernible asexual characters/companions? I’m not sure, in all honesty, because I have yet to encounter another game that does this really well, bar maybe Outer Worlds with Parvati. There isn’t a big enough pool of games to compare it to. And I think that is what the problem is in general with this kind of topic. I’d rather have something than nothing. That’s not really great overall but it’s the right direction. Whether it be gay rights, trans rights or asexual awareness. The world as a whole is just not as well versed in these topics as certain communities are, so of course the first steps in representing us are probably going to be ‘meh’ at best, but we are getting somewhere.
I'm a transgender woman who is also a fan of Abigail Thorn. I've played through that part of Baldur's Gate twice and saw Nocturne both times. I did not catch that she was voiced by Abigail nor did I catch that she was transgender. All Sharrans pick their own name so "dead naming" could have just meant calling someone their old name. I'm married to a cisgender woman and consider myself to be bi or pansexual. I didn't like the fact that any character could romance any other character. It *ruined my immersion* so to speak. At least they also didn't have it so that only the flamboyant male was gay or bi or only the mean ladies were bi or lesbian. But some discretion would have made it more believable. Also, the sex scenes between two women or two men are just the same sex scenes bug with the same sex character models so the actual "act" itself is ridiculous and nonsensical. I'm not even trying to romance anyone on this play-through. I just want to be everybody's best friend this time around. Yes, I will help you fulfill your side quest so that you finally figure out what you want to do with your life. Yes, I will always be there for you. No, I do not want to bone. Thanks. Edit: I liked this video so much I subscribed to your channel. Edit2: I'm guessing the only reason that Nocturne was written slightly better (even if it was all hidden behind an improbable chain of events) is because they had an actual transgender person helping with the writing and characterization.
I'm really happy to hear you got something from my analysis! Thank you! I didn't realize the scenes were identical regardless of player gender. It sorta makes sense from a mechanical or cost-saving perspective, but that ultimately reinforces the point that there's something sorta fun-first about how everything has been created, and that mechanics end up interacting with the story's goals in some odd ways.
lotta people in the comments here saying you can’t ignore it, and Id just like to say there are people out there playing bg3 in a way most people would NEVER imagine, and it’s mostly just avoiding all the gay parts. they’re just not involved in the fandom and are therefore harder to get a pulse on
But unless you either avoid talking to any of the companions of your same gender, or get them all to hate you somehow, they’ll try hitting on you. Sure you can pretty quickly turn them down, but you’re still forced to be exposed to it.
First off, loved this video and the topic. I think there is a legit conflict between the desire to offer players the chance to represent themselves in game such that their queer identity is validated, and presenting a world that queer characters exist in, and what degree of acceptance they enjoy. Case in point, you can make a visibly trans character at character creation just by selecting identity and genitals, but outside that choice, can "masc" bodies be given boobs? or "femme" bodies be made without boobs? Top surgery scars for either? How about any other companions who are visibly trans? Or any NPCs, even if you'll never see them naked? Not without mods. None of the companions are visibly trans the way the main character can be, and while some elements of say, Karlach's design mix masc and femme features in a way that, in the opinion of her actor Sam Heart, felt good in the light that they themselves are she/they nonbinary, that identity isn't explored further with Karlach. As a trans woman myself, of all the female companions I expect would have a penis it'd be her (I speak entirely from personal preference and experience of course). For others, Shadowheart's entire story screams trans allegory, and may have wanted to see that built on by making her textually trans. Even then, as the most (imo) conventionally attractive female companion, she would have to be preternaturally blessed (talk about god's favorite princess) to look like that while being trans and having transitioned anytime after puberty, as any trans woman who has had to go through a testosterone puberty can attest to. But then for some, that doesn't matter as much as the IDEA that the character be trans, and I can respect that. Which isn't to say Larian chickened out on ANY queer representation in the companions. All of them are some variety of bi/pansexual by their writing. And I don't mean in the "playersexual" variety, a term which actively erases bi/pan identity more often than represents it. They flirt with one another outside any origin playthrough, make mention of past relations with same sex partners. Karlach has an origin-only internal monologue where she fantasizes about having a threeway with a lady halfling and a guy (orc? ogre? not sure but he's 10 feet tall lol). While I would have liked for Karlach to be trans femme pre-everything (no opportunities to transition in Avernus) and Wyll to be trans masc with top surgery scars and immaculate hormone therapy due to his noble background, that doesn't take away from their queer status which, even if it's missable, IS at least textual.
Thanks for the thoughtful comment! I was unaware that Karlach's actor is she/they nonbinary, thanks for bringing that up. Shadowheart's story screaming trans-allegory definitely has support in the game, especially since Nocturne and Shadowheart were apparently both mocked for having changed something about their names and identities previously. I wonder if the character would've been more clearly trans if the world didn't carry the prejudice it did, or if the comparison is meant to stop at being similar. Interesting food for thought.
Really think they should have given some option that if you play Shadowheart as origin character, you could click on a box to make her trans. If you do not, you follow same storyline as normal, but of you select it, there would be a few alterations where you could talk with your companions about it and meeting Nocturne you could get information about discovering your identities together. And interacting with parents, they would have another name for her, but accept her as Shadowheart.
Very good, though I have some criticisms on the framing: When considering trans representation, there's no mention of all the accomodations made in character creation. They could've focused more on it yes, but they already did SO much. I think it's unreasonable to a point to expect them to have covered every political topic.
I agree that the character customization is great, and maybe I was remiss in leaving this out. The reason I ultimately didn't bring it up is that - to my knowledge - the player character being trans, non-binary, or using they/them pronouns are all things that go unaddressed in the storytelling. Which I think is the right decision! BG3 is not a game that would be improved by having transphobia directed at the player. But I also think it's thereby not really adding anything to the conversation. The only character (to my knowledge) that is ALWAYS trans is Nocturne. Hopefully that makes sense. I'm glad you got something out of the video anyway!
I liked this video a lot. Very well made and well argued. But real talk: you COULD have put some clothes on Gale lmfao EDIT: I have so much to say about this video and all I said was this stupid joke. I really really loved it, and despite being one of the people who frankly loved the "player choice above all" approach this game took, I think the points you raised about it muddying/devaluing the characterization of the companions were very salient. Im also trans and really just wanted to go on a big gay adventure with my hot devil girlfriend?? God do I wish there was more prominent trans representation in this story.
I'm really glad you enjoyed the video, and also still think it's great that you really enjoyed the game! There's nothing wrong with having a big gay adventure with a hot devil girlfriend! After a certain point I absolutely could've given Gale his pants back and just didn't because it became a running joke.
I liked pretty much all of the characters and romance options in the game, but in my opinion at least some of the party members should have had specific romantic and sexual preferences (like we see in games like Dragon Age Inquisition and Cyberpunk 2077). Don't get me wrong, I'm all for inclusivity and player choice, but giving the characters specific preferences/orientations would have made them more believable and real I would think. Also, all the rejection clips and memes would have been hilarious to watch.
That's where I lean too, but I admit it's not a simple topic. There are a lot of people who feel that having everyone available to everyone was greater for representation, and I can't fault anyone who found meaning in that. Especially with how dismally most other narratives compare to BG3's. A friend brought up a great point about how complex this is that I'll attempt to paraphrase (so if I butcher it, assume it's my fault). They pointed out that, with every romance written to be enjoyed by "anyone," those experiences can often land in a cishet "default" mode instead. So some specifics of minority relationship experiences can fall through the cracks when designing a relationship for all possible options. Apparently this can be especially odd with some of the poses in romantic encounters, which sometimes imply non-existent anatomy.
Good video and a good call. I don’t mind the idea that everyone in a setting is pansexual by default. But it would be nice to stress that people have tastes and preferences. You can be the most pan person in the (fictional) world and still have no interest in tentacles.
I am hoping the next big RPG stories are somewhere in between. Include tons of this freedom but have some characters and stories stay more fixed like you mentioned so we can have a bit more of both. And wow I can't wait to get to BG3!
You deserve subscriber more than me, the most insightful video I've made is me telling the internet why I decided to be a furry. Maybe we both deserve more subscriber. On topic though, I don't enjoy smut as much as most seem to, but I found the romance in the game absolutely hilarious. Rejecting advances is every bit as awkwardly hilarious and eventually forgotten as it should be with someone as dopey as Gale, and the "Omg astarion, you don't need a date, you need a bro" part is the most cheek warmingly wholesome shit I've seen in a video game.
Yo I'm a huge Abigail Thorne fan and had no idea she was in the game. Now I'm more interested in playing it. The only other game I can think of with a trans character is Watch Dogs 2. And according to Noah Caldwell-Gervais it's done surprisingly tastefully for Ubisoft. Cool video! Hope you do 'em more frequently.
Sadly there are still a lot of weirdos out there about the game, but it seems like mainstream media isn't being as weird about it as they were with Mass Effect (or at least, I can't find any Fox News stories about it on a quick scan). I'd consider that a step in the right direction at least!
Not sure why the YT algorithm offered this up to me, but I am SO glad it did. You basically nailed my thoughts on the romance aspect. I could never quite find the words to describe my... unease? Uncertainty? I didn't even *know* Nocturne was supposed to be trans. I went through the House of Grief with Shart and it was clear from their conversation that there was... subtext? Like here I am thinking, "okay, these two were lovers, right? Seems obvious?" and yet meanwhile, there SHOULD be a more direct reference to Nocturne's identity. Why half-ass this? Like you said though, I don't feel like the best person to give an opinion here; I'm not trans, so I feel kinda dumb weighing in, but that point in particular stood out. And just... THANK YOU for "getting it" and explaining sooo well the... idk, weirdness? Of just being able to hook up everyone and anyone. On the one hand, I think it's nice that players can choose paths in the game with whatever companion they like, but on the other... (and you SHOWED DORIAN from DAI, bless you, he's ALWAYS the example that pops to mind) making a character's sexual/gender identity "locked" can be used as a great method to write more in-depth about their past. But yeah, subbing and hoping for more thoughts. Also I loved that nod to your artist friend about the toilet, I laughed way harder at that than I probably should have. 😆
Really happy you got something from my analysis, thank you! I agree, there's a lot of subtext implying Nocturne and Shart were lovers or at least romantically-inclined. It seems like it would've added more depth to both characters if these things had the chance to be explored through actual dialogue, or even a full on narrative quest.
If you have Shadowheart eat the noblestalk in act I she receives a memory of Nocturne prior to her transition, so if you did that it makes it clearer she’s trans when you meet her in act III.
Honestly? I could do with less thirsty characters. The one thing it has absolutely terrible representation for is asexual or people not looking for an outlet for sexual fantasies. The platonic relationships with characters in some instances kills further progression. Karlach is probably the main exception to that, most of them to finish their story properly requires a romance path. Gale is probably the best example of that. Its genuinely difficult to actually "just be friends" with several of the characters that begin relentlessly thirsting and hitting on Tav regardless if you make no advances and keep refusing them.
I'm not sure that's the case tbh? Just finished a playthrough where i did pretty much all the companion quests, and all i really needed was just getting their approval moderately high for certain story beats. Of course ive been hit on by wyll, gale and karlach, but you can safely skip any romance from laezel and shadowheart, gale got a 'choose friendship option', and i put wyll and karlach's advances down. Of course I havent romanced everyone yet, but Gale seems to be the only one where you being in love with him brings more depth to the story tbh. Also, there really is only one instance where you either make or break it with any character and they wont bother you past that. What IS lacking however is that platonic friendship is totally underutilised and you just have to believe that you are more than acquaintances with your team unless they get some side comments within their quests (or its just Karlach again who considers everyone a friend).
I agree and disagree with a lot of your video essay. However, I appreciate how well structured and clear it is. I agree with what you say about the origin/party members being undefined by their sexual orientation or gender. I agree that can limit a characters' authenticity. I agree, the ability to objectivify, and sexually harass the party members limits the authenticity of any relationship the player has with a party member. I agree Larian did not consider the full rammifications of using the term deadnaming in context with a clearly trans character. I also agree that more representation is great! I don't agree that Larian intended to confirm transphobia in Faerune with Nocturne. "Dead naming" in the context mentioned refers to someone's name prior to being initiated as a worshipper of Shar. That is why ShadowHeart could also be "dead named". Ofcourse, it may be possible that Larian intended S.Heart to be trans as well. However, nothing in the game that I've found suggests S.Heart was. At least how i read every LGBTQ+ relationship outside of the party (as the party is flexible) was that it was unremarkable, aka normalized. Dayme Aylin and Isobel were a great couple because they loved eachother. Even the ugly bits. No one really cared that it was two women. Nor can i be sure anyone could call an aasimar ridgidly gendered: they are angellic souls inhabiting mortal bodies. There is nothing to say that Dame Aylin hasn't embodied a masculine body before. Its like assigning genders to beings of pure energy or in simple terms, should we gender electrons or protons? Obviously, in the game, Dame Aylin is constantly referred to as "she" or "her", so im not doubting how Dame Aylin feels about herself. Great video. I think there may have been a bit of Conflation between the two issues: 1. Representation from party members. 2. Representation from characters in the world. To me, these are different consideratons.
I'm not someone who is big on representation and obvious catering to atypical gender identities. I know a lot of games sort of overdo the whole representation to the point where they literally shove it down your throat at every conceivable opportunity. BG3 does a good job of having the representation in there without feeling the need to constantly preach to me about it or go out of it's way to guilt me into believing I'm a horrible person who should die because I don't cream myself at seeing a same sex couple. The world of BG3 has LGBT folks in there same as in real life, but in BG3, they are ordinary people, like you or me, and I think that's pretty fucking fantastic. It's there if you want it to be there, and not there if you don't want it to be there. A game that is truly for everyone.
I don't think I'm a horrible person when games are more explicit in their representation! I'm actually interested in seeing more explicit examples of representation from Larian and other studios going forward: one of the points I'm making is that I wish it WERE visible for everyone, so that the representation was not only for people who were already looking for it.
Honestly some companions are way to pushy in this game, expecially Gale dude can't take a fucking hint, or even a blatant no he keeps fucking trying ive stopped talking to the character all together because of it
It's possible I overlooked something with this in my analysis! I've heard others say the same or similar things, especially about Gale. I wonder if there's a path I've missed where Gale comes off more aggressively, but it just hasn't been a problem in any of my runs. Maybe just one of many examples of how gargantuan the game is.
@internetcouch maybe I'm trying to put him down lightly or maybe I talk to my companions too much but he has had several times where he tries to engage with ne romantically, and the sad thing is i like his character can't we just be friends without you trying to get in my pants dude lol
Hmmmmm. So, there’s **too** much character freedom? This is really sounding like you want the game to be something that it’s not. Most modern rpgs have explicit options for queer and straight romance that are unassailable and the characters have preferences. So you can’t always romance who you want without mods. BG3 is such important rep because everybody is pansexual and this degree of player choice hasn’t been seen before. (Also, moralizing being “rewarded” for bad choices is never a good look, imo. It’s all fake, just let people have fun without taking it personally.) I’m not saying you want the game to go “backwards” but you are suggesting unchangeable preferences would feel more authentic to these fake characters? This….just isn’t that game. I’m sure BG3 is paving the way for more diverse narratives with much more complicated, fleshed out representations of gender and sexuality. And this was definitely a lot of overthinking about the degree of freedom a HUGE amount of people have been desperately waiting for. But, that was also the title of this video, so haha at me.
Its a DnD game. In my opinion the best way to look at it, as a DnD game, which means you create the story of your own game by your choices. I personally am on the note, that if someone wants to play it as full straight game, they should be allowed to. Which this game completely allows to do as you can turn down any companion's advances. Hells, some companions even approve if you just straight choose to "leave" any discussions with them. But obviously if they finish act2 with the good ending they will eventually meet at least 1 prominent gay couple. There are clearly people in this world who do not like wokness, gayness or trans agendas being pushed into their faces and I like how BG3 handled the fulls situation trying to cater to both sides. I find this video actually very funny cause there is a guy who made the exact opposite video saying that the game is too woke and has too much gayness in it. Poor Larian cannot win at all.
The game includes a bunch of possibilities for all kinds of people to feel represented and to have the ability to just have some crazy fun. But it's still not good enough, because it's only good enough when it's forced down everyone's throats regardless of whether they care about it or has anything to do with the core story or not. Basically all I've heard you say is that you're mad (for lack of a better word) that Nocturne being trans is a just a side thing that most wouldn't find out about. And you're mad that she's not special in any way, just some unromanceable NPC and 'vendor'. You're also mad that they point out that discrimination of all kinds exist in this world but don't include any clear political views/preferences in the story and instead leave it to the player to decide for themselves what they think of it and what they want to do about it in the game through the consequential choices. And finally the writing in general isn't deep or good enough for you either, because a teeny tiny part of the character's characterization is missing due to them not having a clear sexuality. So in short you're mad that the game prioritizes everyone's fun over the sole fun of the minorities and the pro-LGBTQ message....because simply giving you the option to be whatever combination of body type, gender and sexuality with even quite a number of LGBTQ NPCs isn't representative enough for you. Wow. And no, I don't think being rewarded with different romanceable companions for doing really anything (whether morally good or bad), in what was always advertised to be a rated R (with explicit seggs scenes) RPG game where your choices shape the story and choices moving forward is weird. If you find it weird to get freaky with Minthara after doing something horrendous, that's just your personal preference. Nothing wrong with that, the game never forced you to do either of those things. No need to question or take away the fun of those who do like to role-play as a morally evil/grey character. It's a RPG after all. It's only fair to reward everyone regardless of the choices they make.
I get the impression you're not really trying to hear what I'm saying. I am curious about one thing though. Genuine question: you mention near the end that everyone should be rewarded regardless of choices made. But if that's the case, does it make sense that many of the best items are locked to the Good path? And the longest, most detailed romance scene is locked behind pure evil? Is the disparity there not odd in any way for you?
@@internetcouch Not sure which of the best items being locked to the good path you're talking about exactly. But I can understand that if you unalive or are mean to (nearly) everyone you run into, you're not going to get rewarded as much with items and such at the end of their quest or get to buy things from them anymore (in the case of vendors). Whether those are the best items I'm not so sure of though. There are plenty of more 'evil' characters for you to help out instead and they reward you with some very useful items as well (that you wouldn't get otherwise or at least not as easily). Especially act 2 and 3 seem to have such options like when figuring out a way to traverse the shadowlands (easier to accomplish with more evil options such as siding with Minthara, Nere and the half-man, half-spider guy if I'm not mistaken), or signing a contract with Raphael in act 3 to get easier and quicker access to the hammer (I don't know if he actually gives you the hammer though since I didn't pick that option, but I assume he does). But even in act 1 there are a few options, like siding with Ethel (initially at least) and letting her take your eye for a special condition and items etc. Or letting Abdirak...uhm...bless you with another kind of permanent condition. The one isn't necessarily a straight up evil choice, but what he does to you is definitely a more morally-questionable/sadistic one. Choosing between the two myconids in the underdark will also result in different rewards I believe, and one of them is clearly a bit more devious. Anyways I'm sure there are many other examples how doing the more 'evil' thing provides other kinds of advantages. These were just the first few that came to mind. As for the Minthara seggs scene being the most detailed, I don't think there's a deeper meaning there. But let's say Larian did mean something by it, what does it matter? Like let's also look at some other more 'evil' character seggs scenes, such as the ascended Astarion, Haarlep, Mizora and Emperor ones. Those are also more detailed/bdsm-like/kinky I'd say. So maybe Larian believes that evil people tend to be more likely to indulge themselves completely in pleasing themselves (in more ways than one), cause of how 'evil' people tend to be more selfish or something like that. Let's say that is indeed what Larian is trying to show....why is that a problem? Wouldn't you say that just makes the writing/attention to detail more impressive? If they actually thought of that, isn't that a good thing? Or do you think this will somehow negatively impact society (the small portion of it that plays BG3 that is)? I don't know what you're trying to imply there, all you really said is that it's a little weird to include that, especially when the game is mostly designed for 'quick, cheap fun'. I'd say it's the opposite, I think that's exactly why it isn't weird. The game isn't trying to tell you what you should be thinking, that's against the entire point of its design (cause of the RPG elements and all that). So yeah, you're probably indeed 'not meant to think about it'. Unless you're trying to say that Larian is trying to use the 'higher reward' that is Minthara's seggs scene as a way to motivate players to choose a more evil path in their playthroughs. I could agree with that, and it would make sense since most people usually do not try the evil path in these kinds of games....because it doesn't feel rewarding enough. So Larian perhaps tried to make up for that very common RPG issue by including this extra freaky seggs scene for example. But again, why is that a problem instead of a good thing and how does that relate to everything else you said about representation etc? Besides doesn't this scene being a higher reward then contradict the whole 'good run has better items' claim in a way? Wouldn't that just balance things out? Also there's nothing wrong with the game being designed for quick, cheap fun. It's a videogame after all and probably part of the reason people love it so much. It's not trying to be anything other than quick, cheap fun and people have missed that in modern gaming, where it's often more so about long-term, tedious commitments doing daily quests and whatnot. Not to mention many modern games being incomplete experiences that can only truly be enjoyed if you put (more) money into it over the years following the game's release, rather than giving you the complete product that you can just quickly enjoy and have fun with (aka quick, cheap fun). Imo this video looked more like you were just trying to overthink certain parts of the game, until you found ways to make problems out of things that aren't problems. Though of course your opinion may be different than mine, nothing wrong with that. If you don't like (aspects of) the design or writing etc. that's perfectly fine. But I can't say I felt like you actually made a point with this video. In fact I think that if the game had actually included the things you seemed to crave from it, it would not have been as successful as it now is (if successful at all). Again, much of what you said would be completely contradictory to the point of the game's design. And if that means that it's not your favorite type of game, no problem. But that doesn't make it weird or flawed in the ways you said/suggested it was.
Games are not movies and you can not force play you want others to do.. And i dont believe you even played as there are side nc relationship for people to see. Your just making a video to fund something to complain about.
I really liked being able to play the game and not have anyone imply I was evil for being white or male. Only because I set gnomes on fire and send them into gnoll dens.
when will the first opportunity to have sex appear in this video essay?
Hahahahaha
I love kissing gay vampires and strong red women!
It was heartbreaking having to pick between the 8 minutes of hilarious takes you sent.
In a world where a 3ft purple gnome can fuck a 7ft dragonborn I think gender is one of the least weird things for people to take into account. I'm honestly relieved that I can play as a non binary pansexual without characters commenting on it in the game. I get enough trouble irl as it is. Being able to relax and just be a person without it being commented on I think is more important than making a big deal out of it. I can't really see how that is harmful representation when the representation is just being viewed as a normal person in a world where that makes total sense and there isn't centuries of religious oppression.
I agree, getting hassled by NPCs wouldn't be the right call for this game at all (or arguably any game, that'd be a tough one to tackle imo). The point I was making about Nocturne is that, because her journal reveals that she WAS hassled, the world of the game canonically has this kind of prejudice.
Or, equally likely, the writers responsible did not consider the implications of how Nocturne was included on the broader game world.
As a queer overthinker myself I think you brought up some interesting points, though I may not agree with them all.
Personally I find the lack of ‘labels’ somewhat liberating, knowing that you can be with whoever you want and be accepted pretty much without a question is something I live for. I love that the lines are blurry and everyone’s sexuality seemingly fluid. When it comes to queerness not being visible I think one needs to act willingly blind to not see it cuz it’s pretty visible from the very beginning. In the character creator there is no restriction when it comes to your body/voice/pronouns, I imagine that for someone the simple freedom of having a masc body with fem genitalia (or viceversa) without the game making it impossible might be pretty shocking lol. Same goes for the flamboyant Astarion, Gale pining for you no matter who you are when you get good approval, Shadowheart thirsting after Karlach at least that one time, not to mention Halsin bringing some poly rep!
When it comes to trans rep I do think BG3 could have been more ambitious, like giving customization options for surgery scars or the ability to mix and match with fem and masc heads instead of locking them to a specific body type (something mods have achieved). To have a romanceble trans companion would have been amazing but alas we have to yet again stick to head canoning characters if we want that representation…
I have to say that seeing BG3 characters as shiny toys to bump at one another like barbies is crazy to me because I got so invested in their stories that being able to become intimate with them seemed more like a bonus than the main motivator. But I will fully admit that that’s most likely a me thing😅 Still, the freedom to roleplay and make every playthrough different to the last with the freedom of romance is important imo. Perhaps La’zel and Shadowheart can be enemies to lovers in your 1st playthrough but the second time around you let them kill each other. Wyll can use intimidation, as well as persuasion, so you could roleplay him as a fallen hero, good turned evil.
In the end what makes BG3 so fun is the freedom to tell stories with what you have. It isn’t as limitless as DnD can be but I find it amazing how much you can do in this game to make each playthrough a little unique! Also we stan Kim
I completely agree with you! Player freedom can’t exist to this degree if we also set parameters and label everything and everyone. The idea that you could have a playthrough where the most unlikely things technically could happen, is what makes this game so remarkable for anyone to build the reality they want to see, or avoid things if they wish. That’s each player’s prerogative.
Also, like most things on the internet, the obnoxious are often the loudest. But even if obnoxious folks are harping on about the naughty bits, so what? (is my reaction) I agree 100% that the romances were a bonus to how invested I was in the character’s actual stories. I think it’s easy to assume that everyone uses this game as a sex sim, but I think that’s a false representation of the greater whole of us who are actually invested in building a meaningful story of one’s own journey through this game!
I appreciate reading everyone’s thoughts on this and the video itself.
why would surgery scars be a thing in a universe where you can literally just magic yourself into the form you want? thats.. thats really fucking dumb mate.
I so much agree with this! Maybe it's because I'm a problematic bi, but i feel super catered to when games let me date whoever. It's a nice change of pace from reality where I'm too gay for the straights and too straight for the gays. The only other place I get my fix in is farm sims. While I understand the panification of npcs can be off-putting to some, it really strikes a chord with me. Praising the freedom is absolutely what I intend on doing when I finally get to give the game a shot! That said, I'm all for games with specific representation! As long as they offer the same amount of freedom in a broad sense, options less specifically. I even enjoy the black and white queercoding in the life is strange games, so I'm easy to cater to tbh.
Considering most D&D games I know of turns into stories of chaotic bisexuals killing stuff, I think BG3 was just sticking close to the source material. Lol
I don't know how long you played the game, but companions were absolutely "gay" to me without me actively asking them to be "gay". That aside, there is a prominent gay couple in the game, and while I agree that transgender representation is reduced to a very minor character, one of the weirdest and longest collection quests in Act 3 is connected vividly to drag. Also, the whole character creation process will inevitably let you cross path with the chance of playing a bearded, female voiced character with a penis or any other combination, and you are openly invited to experiment with that. (Even more so now that some parts can jiggle.) Claiming that there is no contact with these concepts if you don't actively invite these concepts into your game is (partially) incorrect. In fact, I dare say that due to the freedom you have in the safe space of your own home without any morality system to tell you how to handle this "properly", the creation system alone invites you to let your mind wander a bit and get more comfortable with a bit of bias when it comes to certain topics.
That said, you keep asking for a more realistic representation of a couple of things - which I can agree with - but then you find it..."weird" that evil deeds are rewarded with sex in the game, as if that's somehow not an actual realistic representation of how things work in our world. Evil deeds get rewarded in reality every day. It's just how things are. What's more interesting is that many players have actively decided AGAINST recruiting Minthara and the smut because they couldn't and wouldn't want to be responsible of druid grove and tiefling genocide DESPITE the fact that there is really no punishment for doing so...except their own conscience. And that is an interesting point that I was missing in your contemplations.
Rest assured I enjoyed your video and your thoughts, however. I wouldn't have offered mine in return, otherwise.
Cheers
And with the recent patch you don't even need the genocide to get minthara.
Really enjoyed reading your counter-points here. Thanks for taking the time to respond!
It's a great point that having those options in the character creator invites some level of contact and experimentation - another commenter also mentioned the character creator discussion felt missing here. I think I shoulda said something about it after all.
I do still find the Minthara scene weird though. I don't think it's intended as a commentary on how evil is rewarded; in fact, outside of the sex scene, going that route is mechanically way worse because you're denied all the quest items and vendors from the tieflings in later acts, many of which are just the best items of their class in the whole game. Going good is mechanically a far greater reward! But then, the good guy romance scenes are comparatively far more tame; which makes me feel like the reward for the player, not just their character, is to check out this hot elf action.
@@internetcouch
Originally, playing that way gave you a drow paladin which has a huge number of mechanical bonuses. The drow bit can also be done using disguise self, but still, very useful. And paladin is just an amazing class.
And the tiefling massacre downside is overstated. Easy enough to avail of the services, then wipe them out and move on to last light.
And now? You can save the tieflings, knock out minthara, and pick her up at moonrise. Best of both worlds, no mechanical downside.
I think most people, well, most players that are on their second run or more at least, avoid killing the goblins more often than not due to 1) Bad feelings, as you said, and 2) You are locked out of a few quests and appearances that are, though mostly minor, still present throughout the rest of the game because the tieflings need to live in order to access them. While there are quest changes by taking the goblins' side instead, I think Larian really focused consequences in the action they figured most people would take in regards to the Grove.
Luckily, Minthara, an great companion just as deep as the rest of them, can be experienced by more people now with the new patch!
I was happy to hear Abigail's voice. I knew she was in the game somewhere, and then finally meeting Nocturne with Shadowheart in the party was so nice. I must confess I didn't link the text about the wrong name in her diary to her being a trans character experiencing trans experiences. Perhaps that's my barbarian brain speaking, but with the whole Shar cult giving their followers Shar approved names, I was thinking in that direction, that perhaps when Nocturne acted differently than was expected, perhaps some would call her by another name. That said, I can see now how seen on its own it matches with the trans experience and also adds to Shadowheart's kindness rather than her zealotry.
This is a good thing, it’s called player choice, this is to be lauded, not criticized. The game was written for everyone. Though I do think the characters should comment on nudity, that would be hilarious.
Although queer storylines are more reliant on not doing evil-there are two (three?) more NPC couples who deserve your mention:
(1) Isobel & Dame Aylin (extremely overt, complete with parental disapproval),
(2) Ironhand gnome gay couple in Ironforge, and
(3) Barcus & Wulbren (representation of a full Act 1-3 unrequited love that isn't hetero... is one of the more important things I think needed to exist).
I should further mention that, although I am only at the end of Act 2, Barcus and Wulbren are reading as a (unrequited) "Queer Platonic Relationship" which has been required reading for an asexual like me.
I so badly need to finish the game so I can discuss it with folks. I am perfectly fine with spoilers (I've consumed tons of videos on the game) if anyone wants to chime in!
Ooh point one is super interesting - do you know if the parental disapproval is specifically tied to gender? I knew about the relationship (there's some footage of them reunited and smoochin' in the video) but if there's specifically prejudice related to them being f/f it throws another wrench into my understanding of the world.
@@internetcouch I don't think so... I went ahead and transcribed what she said. There was a dramatic non-written ellipsis before "immortal", and a written ellipsis before "strange". She gives this dialogue when you can finally interrogate her about Ketheric Thorm:
"Do you believe in love at first sight?
//responses, reactions along the lines of 'me, too!'//
Lucky for me she felt the same way. But my father was skeptical. Aylin is *immortal*, after all.
I understand it's[...] strange. There's an imbalance between us, certainly. But I suppose loving Aylin felt the same as loving myself. It was natural."
Unless I can find more in-game reading materials or in-game conversations on the topic, that is just that. I hope to see the storyline resolved that we find out why / how Isobel died back then (I personally suspect she wasn't killed at all, but just made to seem dead so Shar/Myrkul/Absolute could manipulate Ketheric and then give her back).
I honestly felt a bit let down by it as well-just a *"she is (/will be) too old for my daughter"* type of protectiveness more appropriate to their being an interracial (inter-species?) couple, and in specific reference to their difference in age and imbalance of power.
It feels like that dramatic ellipsis before "immortal" was so loaded that even the voice actor wanted to say it in such a way to imply "it's because she is a woman" because *that* is more couched in the player's reality. But alas, I don't have much hope there will be representation of relationships surviving homophobia in Act 3.
I hope that, despite being myself a trans woman, I won't be too let down by the analogous transphobia example (Nocturne). I know there is some kind of hideaway with diaries that Shadowheart made out of fear for losing her memories of her friend, and I fully intend to reunite her with this hideaway if I can (plus I am in the habit of exploring every nook and cranny for secrets). Plus, it is worth mention that Shar's order is literally evil and probably didn't do much to dispel any out-group behaviors their students exhibited. But even if I will feel represented in Shadowheart & Nocturne's storyline (when I get to that part of Act 3), I think it may ultimately be bittersweet for the fact there was only ever one -phobia and it was transphobia.
I assume by parental disapproval you mean Ketheric which I personally didn't read as being related to the gay thing. I saw it as a more of a traditional "I won't let you take my daughter" thing.
@@jojak0512 I don't think your interpretation is mutually exclusive with mine. For queer folk like me, "traditional" is a hella loaded word that almost always includes the passing down of irrational generational trauma-stories like "my parents disapproved of my s/o, so now I have to do it to you, too" and "my parents demonstrated homophobia, so now I have to do it to you, too".
I think that that kind of "traditional" sentimentality is just disguised ego-the ever-present threat that if you do something differently, you're admitting/accusing the previous way of being wrong. And parents don't want to tarnish their parents honor, so off comes the belt for 10 lashes "_just like they did to me_"!
To be fair, your compaions seem to flirt with each other in the background as you go along, so them all being able to be with any of the others if you play one as origins isn't too farfetched
The game indicates their was some level of care between Astarion and Sebastion, which is why that one gets to him so much
Off the top of my head, two of the male gnomes you save at Grymforge are a couple, Isobel and Dame Aylin are a couple, and I sware Alfria and Lakrissa seem to become a couple over the course of the game.
I do agree that it is unfair that the confirmed trans character is only revealed through a layer of an ingame series of events that have to play out just right.
I didn't find out they were trans until my second playthrough (blew up the area for funzies after I got the guy out in my first playthrough, didn't even know about the noblestalk being there)
However in regards about reading their journal, you read everyone's journal you come across, so the question of this one specific characters invastion of privacy seems a bit excessive to me
Also though their may be only one confirmed trans character, there are some other characters that seem to potentually be gender diverse, like with the circus leader. Lucretious seems like she might have been based off of a drag queen with the way her personality come across
Of course others have mention the character creator, but to be fair I don't think that's relevent to the discussion as that all about player choice not something that exists in every playthrough regardless of the player even finding out
Lucretious is voiced by Drag Queen Vinegar Strokes.
@@WraithReaper09 so I was not inaccurate in my assessment of the character.
Though now I don't know if it's the character themselves or the voice actor behind the character that's coming through in the performance
Regardless I do think Drag Queens seem to have this type of self-confidence that just shines across in their personalities and performaces, and it's always awesome to see
@@AnnaMno1 oh Lucretious is in full Drag, you're 100% correct on your assumption.
The core mechanic of tabletop DnD is to fuck up the world, that DM meticulously crafted. In one of the adventures my friend simply used teleport spell on gigantic adamantium door, sold it in the city and hired an army to fuck up BBEG.
BG3 is giving people THE closest experience to a tabletop session.
ITs written to be a self insert power fantasy where you can lay bitches and slay witches... or lay witches and slay bitches.... And that is the point!
You want to move the plot? Move the plot!
Want to fuck a dragon? Hope to roll that sweet nat 20!
Want to be an almighty hero? Be one!
Want to be a murderhobo? Here is Dark Urge!
Want to be a transgender person? Be whoever you are!
Developers give you an amazing world and simply saying "Your role is up to you. Be yourself or be someone else! All limited only by your imagination".
Games like Mass Effect and Witcher are good becouse they make you feel like Shepard or Geralt. But they limit you to act like them. In the end you'll make choice based on logic of Shepard or Geralt. You'll try to save everyone, you'll be a hero no matter wat. Geralt always will have 3 swords and Shepard will save the galaxy no matter what.
Games like Skyrim and BG3 is great, becouse they give all the tools to be the master of your own adventure. You represent only yourself. And it's only up to YOU how this world will unfold.
P.s: here one example of a role playing that everyone expected from BG3 (and quite honestly get it)
ua-cam.com/users/shortsJp0tADFg9Mo?si=PKHhjcaTtrsxXJin
Almost all teleport spells in 5e specifically state "creature", adamantium door is a weird type of creature lol
Thank you!!
I am a little confused by the idea that it somehow makes for better characterization or story to have characters with fixed sexualities. I don't understand how making a character straight tells us more about who they are except for the fact that they are straight, and I don't understand how it diminishes the actual story and emotional impact to have characters be romanceable regardless of what you are. Arguing that Shadowheart wouldn't romance Lae'zel, or that Wyll wouldn't romance Minthara, is an entirely separate conversation regarding whether or not Origin characters should be able to do things that are out of character for them.
I remember in KOtOR that you couldn't have a relationship with Bastilla if you were a female character. I have to question how this adds depth or characterization rather than actively taking away from it by locking the player out of a plotline because of a choice made in character creation. Adding player freedom isn't something that subtracts from the story, it adds to it.
I hadn't really thought of it in the context of "Wish Fulfilment" as you describe, but I think it's a very apt description. I don't think I've yet reached a concrete opinion on the subject of whether companion sexuality should be mutable in RPGs. I do like the idea of characters having defined personal traits that establish who they are within their world, and I also think that every character being always sexually attracted to the player is feeding the sex-obsessed nightmare that our reality (particularly online) has become. You can make the most revolting gith selunite cleric possible, and Shadowheart will still want to bang. A player need never feel challenged, rejected, or reminded of the real world as they play.
On the other hand I also think it's reasonable to argue that 'canonicity' doesn't matter in a game that's fundamentally about player choice. There is no "true" path to the game, and the characters aren't real people. They are actors used to tell stories, and we take a role in deciding what story gets told. Shadowheart could have a sapphic adventure of love and redemption and it would be a perfectly valid playthrough. So is one where she gets the cold shoulder by the paladin she dotes for and then gets kicked off of a ledge for making the mistake of trying to murder an innocent for her dark god right in front of that same paladin. We get the themes we tell the game to pursue, and players who tell the game they want to sex up a character are getting exactly what they want. A player need never feel challenged, rejected, or reminded of the real world as they play.
I'm honestly not sure which approach is 'best'. I repeated the last sentence of the above paragraphs on purpose, as I think whether we view that statement as a positive or negative is an entirely personal decision. I don't yet know what my own opinion is - but I've certainly been enjoying the game.
Agreed! Interesting point about how the NPCs having mutable traits can be considered as playing a role themselves. In that interpretation the NPCs are roleplaying along with you - changing around certain details to fill in the story you're trying to tell. That almost makes it feel more like a tabletop game than I'd even given it credit for; where in games at the table, players are all working together to tell the story that's most interesting for everybody.
Fascinating stuff to mull over.
so i haven't played thoroughly yet (80hrs good run 40hrs evil run), but despite the lack of good trans rep, i've come across multiple explicit same sex couples/couplings (SPOILERS AHEAD):
isobel x aylin in good run
alfira x lakrissa in good run (no dark urge)
an npc lady whose name i forget leaves her husband for another woman in act 3 (optional scene)
the druid in sharess's caress x mindflayer lady (optional scene but hard to miss)
and im not sure if you can count this as a "real" coupling, but astarion and the spawn who curses him in cazador's dungeon. i only include this one despite astarion's hundreds of other victims because of the clear romantic details the man spoke of.
notably a lot of wlw here, i haven't really seen much mlm. again, i haven't thoroughly played the game, so im sure im missing some couplings here. in any case its a little tiring seeing so many wlw pairs without mlm to balance it out. i know many straight men are uncomfortable with homosexuality between men, i wish there was like a main quest character dude with a husband or smth. in any case as wlw myself ive been having a field day with this game lmao
Two of the deep gnome men you can rescue from Nere in the Grymforge are a gay couple. But you are right about there being much more wlm than mlm.
There is 100% a trans character in act 3
@@daveski7 that’s addressed in the video…
@@willroth7521 I was replying to this comment. See above me, this is called a reply. I was replying to where they say there's no trans characters in the game...
@@daveski7 they didn’t say there isn’t trans representation, just that it isn’t done well which is hard to disagree with.
thank you so much for overthinking baldur's gate 3, this was such a delight to watch and definitely got me thinking more about what good writing and good representation looks like in games
I'm really glad you got something out of it!
BG3 is still a big positive in the direction of good writing/good rep in video games, but my ideal world would involve this kind of fun alongside more challenging works. Basically this should be part of a package that includes many additional works by many additional creators, rather than the single standard all companies aspire to.
Some people read erotic fiction and romance. Some people avoid it. You have the freedom to avoid the romance and sex if you choose, that’s kind of the point. The companions have very deeply emotional stories, and which direction those stories go depends entirely on how you treat them, what you say and do. In at least one case, that story goes even deeper if you romance the character-because they trust you even more. It’s not all about sex, but that part is not only fun, it can also be deeply meaningful. Or not. Your choice.
You made some interesting points, and there is definitely a debate to be had about “playersexual” companions. But I think this all has a deeper meaning and impact…for those who need or want it. Maybe that’s not something you want/need, so you think it’s trivial. But that’s *your* perspective. And that’s the brilliant thing about the design of this game! It’s remarkably responsive to the player’s choices, both big and small. It’s deliberate and I think it’s amazing.
Personally I’m quite upset at your statement that these romances are written for fun and not depth. I found the Shadowheart romance to be quite meaningful, and I’ve heard great things about some of the other ones as well. I could go more in depth about what I liked about the romance, but I don’t wanna risk spoiling anything. Really though I think the romances have a lot more to them than you’re giving them credit for. As for LGBT representation, you do have a point, but it does exist. There are quite a few same sex couples you can encounter, and while many of them aren’t at all important to the game, there is a specific lesbian couple that very much so are important. Also you seem to either ignore or just be unaware of the fact that your companions will flirt with you even if you’re the same gender as them. In fact, I’ve had ever man make a move on me, and only 2 of the women. As for transgender representation though you’re 100% correct. Truthfully I don’t even understand why it was included if it wasn’t going to be at all expanded on.
Everything is weird when you think about it.
May I just say, I had not considered Wyll/Gale before this very moment but now I am considering it and I love it!
Oh I actually thought they’d make a cute couple when I first saw them together 😅
I am an asexual and for me it just feels like there's no real friendship. Either you're romantically interested in a character, which means you'll get more dialogues, more scenes, more content, or you turn them down and that's the end of it. Of course there are still the companion quests and their quest related conversations, but it just feels empty. I want caring bromance like John Sheppard and Garrus Vakarinan had, I want to be bffs with Karlach without having her tell me how she's gonna 'ride me till i see the stars' first few hours in the game.
This is simply not true. Karlach in particular is your best friend regardless of wether you choose to romance her or not (unless you kill her of course).
@@darkguardian50 Its objectively true for a lot of other characters though, the romance option for them is the completion of their story and the friendship is not.
@@defiante1 I'm not saying its not. I'm simply saying its not always true, as the OP stated. Generalizations and blanket statements are never good, especially if you are trying to make an important point.
"When I play the game, no one is gay muwhahaha" sounds like a line from an alternate version of the Incredibles where Syndrome is a homophobic incel.
Neat video. I didn't know Abigail Thorn voiced Nocturne until watching this.
Are you seriously complaining that players can choose to be in same sex relationships or not?? If a straight player wants to have a straight romance…. that’s fine. Even as a gay man I like to have that option for a playthrough.
I believe that they’re making the argument that by making every character have a nondescript sexuality the game makes it easy for the player to ignore that all the characters are Bi or queer which has the potential to be harmful for queer visibility.
@@Cyborgninja001 It seems like their problem is people who are “homophobic” don’t need to see it if they choose not to. Which honestly, is a super immature way of looking at it. He’s not going to win anyone over by forcing things on them. BG3 did a great job of representation without being preachy.
@@Aureilius2112but I mean, that point even doesn’t really stand, since there are multiple gay characters in the game outside of the companions, and even if you don’t romance a companion in the end, if you have good approval with them, almost all of them will shoot their shot with the player so you can’t really be homophobic and not have to deal with queerness in this game
I feel like we watched a different video based on this comment lol
Yes, player sexuality is a negative
I've only watched 2 min of this but I want to say what I was thinking the whole time I played this game
"Why the fuck is everyone on Faerun pansexual?"
Yeah, I keep having people tell me that the companions are playersexual, but it seems more like they're all just flat-out pansexual. Which I get from a perspective of not wanting to make players feel left out, but from a characterization perspective it feels weird to me that they don't have individual sexualities in any meaningful way.
Because Ed Greenwood
I appreciate the video, I like the idea that you’ve started to go down with this particular topic, but I do feel it doesn’t quite hit the mark that you might have been going for.
Like you’ve pointed out yourself, as an outsider for a particular part of the LGBTQ+ community, I can only speak for what I’ve seen. Taking Nocturne as an example, their inclusion has been no different for much of Trans representation that I have seen within modern gaming in how it has been handled. The only other instance I can genuinely think of right now is Claire in Cyberpunk 2077, where if I’m remembering correctly, it’s hardly mentioned or can be flat out missed if people don’t actively pick up on it/ ignore her questline.
I know it’s not great in saying that ‘at least we finally have actual characters who are indeed trans’ which is barely pushing the envelope in the representing that we need, but for them to be included (and voiced by actual trans women) in the first place is leagues beyond what the industry once was. I’m still waiting for a trans main character/lead (that isn’t player made) but do I think that is going to happen anytime soon? Unfortunately not. Also, I’m still wondering where the trans masc representation is as well?
I was waiting 20 years for good lesbian representation in video games too (I can still argue to a point that we don’t actually have that due to F/F scenes often feeling like how straight men view lesbian couples). It takes time for any representation in an industry that is arguably mostly pushed for straight white men. I don’t think taking BG3 as an example for where this could have been improved helps any points being made simply because of how open it is about sexuality in general, but rather than being specific, it’s as wide as possible to include everyone, which I think is arguably better than being as narrow as possible to fill particular roles or even stereotypes that often seem to occur when developers do try.
I would argue, however, that it does leave something of a sour taste for those that are asexual, because dear god the companions were so horny (and still are, but slightly toned down now) when the game launched that it was like being punched in the face by it. You can still reject them, just as a straight, bi or gay player can reject any advances, but is it good representation for that particular community when a game is rather sexual in the first place and has no discernible asexual characters/companions? I’m not sure, in all honesty, because I have yet to encounter another game that does this really well, bar maybe Outer Worlds with Parvati. There isn’t a big enough pool of games to compare it to. And I think that is what the problem is in general with this kind of topic. I’d rather have something than nothing. That’s not really great overall but it’s the right direction. Whether it be gay rights, trans rights or asexual awareness.
The world as a whole is just not as well versed in these topics as certain communities are, so of course the first steps in representing us are probably going to be ‘meh’ at best, but we are getting somewhere.
I'm a transgender woman who is also a fan of Abigail Thorn. I've played through that part of Baldur's Gate twice and saw Nocturne both times. I did not catch that she was voiced by Abigail nor did I catch that she was transgender.
All Sharrans pick their own name so "dead naming" could have just meant calling someone their old name.
I'm married to a cisgender woman and consider myself to be bi or pansexual. I didn't like the fact that any character could romance any other character. It *ruined my immersion* so to speak. At least they also didn't have it so that only the flamboyant male was gay or bi or only the mean ladies were bi or lesbian. But some discretion would have made it more believable.
Also, the sex scenes between two women or two men are just the same sex scenes bug with the same sex character models so the actual "act" itself is ridiculous and nonsensical.
I'm not even trying to romance anyone on this play-through. I just want to be everybody's best friend this time around. Yes, I will help you fulfill your side quest so that you finally figure out what you want to do with your life. Yes, I will always be there for you. No, I do not want to bone. Thanks.
Edit: I liked this video so much I subscribed to your channel.
Edit2: I'm guessing the only reason that Nocturne was written slightly better (even if it was all hidden behind an improbable chain of events) is because they had an actual transgender person helping with the writing and characterization.
I'm really happy to hear you got something from my analysis! Thank you!
I didn't realize the scenes were identical regardless of player gender. It sorta makes sense from a mechanical or cost-saving perspective, but that ultimately reinforces the point that there's something sorta fun-first about how everything has been created, and that mechanics end up interacting with the story's goals in some odd ways.
lotta people in the comments here saying you can’t ignore it, and Id just like to say there are people out there playing bg3 in a way most people would NEVER imagine, and it’s mostly just avoiding all the gay parts. they’re just not involved in the fandom and are therefore harder to get a pulse on
But unless you either avoid talking to any of the companions of your same gender, or get them all to hate you somehow, they’ll try hitting on you. Sure you can pretty quickly turn them down, but you’re still forced to be exposed to it.
16:26 holy shit I never realized that. Gotta do a Wyll run now.
First off, loved this video and the topic. I think there is a legit conflict between the desire to offer players the chance to represent themselves in game such that their queer identity is validated, and presenting a world that queer characters exist in, and what degree of acceptance they enjoy.
Case in point, you can make a visibly trans character at character creation just by selecting identity and genitals, but outside that choice, can "masc" bodies be given boobs? or "femme" bodies be made without boobs? Top surgery scars for either? How about any other companions who are visibly trans? Or any NPCs, even if you'll never see them naked? Not without mods.
None of the companions are visibly trans the way the main character can be, and while some elements of say, Karlach's design mix masc and femme features in a way that, in the opinion of her actor Sam Heart, felt good in the light that they themselves are she/they nonbinary, that identity isn't explored further with Karlach.
As a trans woman myself, of all the female companions I expect would have a penis it'd be her (I speak entirely from personal preference and experience of course).
For others, Shadowheart's entire story screams trans allegory, and may have wanted to see that built on by making her textually trans. Even then, as the most (imo) conventionally attractive female companion, she would have to be preternaturally blessed (talk about god's favorite princess) to look like that while being trans and having transitioned anytime after puberty, as any trans woman who has had to go through a testosterone puberty can attest to. But then for some, that doesn't matter as much as the IDEA that the character be trans, and I can respect that.
Which isn't to say Larian chickened out on ANY queer representation in the companions. All of them are some variety of bi/pansexual by their writing. And I don't mean in the "playersexual" variety, a term which actively erases bi/pan identity more often than represents it. They flirt with one another outside any origin playthrough, make mention of past relations with same sex partners. Karlach has an origin-only internal monologue where she fantasizes about having a threeway with a lady halfling and a guy (orc? ogre? not sure but he's 10 feet tall lol).
While I would have liked for Karlach to be trans femme pre-everything (no opportunities to transition in Avernus) and Wyll to be trans masc with top surgery scars and immaculate hormone therapy due to his noble background, that doesn't take away from their queer status which, even if it's missable, IS at least textual.
Thanks for the thoughtful comment! I was unaware that Karlach's actor is she/they nonbinary, thanks for bringing that up.
Shadowheart's story screaming trans-allegory definitely has support in the game, especially since Nocturne and Shadowheart were apparently both mocked for having changed something about their names and identities previously. I wonder if the character would've been more clearly trans if the world didn't carry the prejudice it did, or if the comparison is meant to stop at being similar. Interesting food for thought.
Really think they should have given some option that if you play Shadowheart as origin character, you could click on a box to make her trans. If you do not, you follow same storyline as normal, but of you select it, there would be a few alterations where you could talk with your companions about it and meeting Nocturne you could get information about discovering your identities together. And interacting with parents, they would have another name for her, but accept her as Shadowheart.
Very good, though I have some criticisms on the framing:
When considering trans representation, there's no mention of all the accomodations made in character creation.
They could've focused more on it yes, but they already did SO much. I think it's unreasonable to a point to expect them to have covered every political topic.
I agree that the character customization is great, and maybe I was remiss in leaving this out. The reason I ultimately didn't bring it up is that - to my knowledge - the player character being trans, non-binary, or using they/them pronouns are all things that go unaddressed in the storytelling.
Which I think is the right decision! BG3 is not a game that would be improved by having transphobia directed at the player. But I also think it's thereby not really adding anything to the conversation. The only character (to my knowledge) that is ALWAYS trans is Nocturne.
Hopefully that makes sense. I'm glad you got something out of the video anyway!
@@internetcouchOrin is arguably gender fluid, but that could have been stressed more.
Hang on, how sure are we that “you can get in every of your companions pants” is about sex, and not just the hot swappable chonies?
You can get every of your companion pants!
I liked this video a lot. Very well made and well argued. But real talk: you COULD have put some clothes on Gale lmfao
EDIT: I have so much to say about this video and all I said was this stupid joke. I really really loved it, and despite being one of the people who frankly loved the "player choice above all" approach this game took, I think the points you raised about it muddying/devaluing the characterization of the companions were very salient.
Im also trans and really just wanted to go on a big gay adventure with my hot devil girlfriend?? God do I wish there was more prominent trans representation in this story.
I'm really glad you enjoyed the video, and also still think it's great that you really enjoyed the game! There's nothing wrong with having a big gay adventure with a hot devil girlfriend!
After a certain point I absolutely could've given Gale his pants back and just didn't because it became a running joke.
I liked pretty much all of the characters and romance options in the game, but in my opinion at least some of the party members should have had specific romantic and sexual preferences (like we see in games like Dragon Age Inquisition and Cyberpunk 2077).
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for inclusivity and player choice, but giving the characters specific preferences/orientations would have made them more believable and real I would think.
Also, all the rejection clips and memes would have been hilarious to watch.
That's where I lean too, but I admit it's not a simple topic. There are a lot of people who feel that having everyone available to everyone was greater for representation, and I can't fault anyone who found meaning in that. Especially with how dismally most other narratives compare to BG3's.
A friend brought up a great point about how complex this is that I'll attempt to paraphrase (so if I butcher it, assume it's my fault). They pointed out that, with every romance written to be enjoyed by "anyone," those experiences can often land in a cishet "default" mode instead. So some specifics of minority relationship experiences can fall through the cracks when designing a relationship for all possible options. Apparently this can be especially odd with some of the poses in romantic encounters, which sometimes imply non-existent anatomy.
Good video and a good call. I don’t mind the idea that everyone in a setting is pansexual by default. But it would be nice to stress that people have tastes and preferences. You can be the most pan person in the (fictional) world and still have no interest in tentacles.
To be fair, you don't have INFINITE freedom to bang everyone. You kinda need them to, you know... Like you in the first place? Big detail right there.
Cus why would transphobia exist in the world that you can turn into an OWLBEAR.
I am hoping the next big RPG stories are somewhere in between. Include tons of this freedom but have some characters and stories stay more fixed like you mentioned so we can have a bit more of both.
And wow I can't wait to get to BG3!
You deserve subscriber more than me, the most insightful video I've made is me telling the internet why I decided to be a furry. Maybe we both deserve more subscriber.
On topic though, I don't enjoy smut as much as most seem to, but I found the romance in the game absolutely hilarious. Rejecting advances is every bit as awkwardly hilarious and eventually forgotten as it should be with someone as dopey as Gale, and the "Omg astarion, you don't need a date, you need a bro" part is the most cheek warmingly wholesome shit I've seen in a video game.
It just seems like a lot of the interractions with the other characters is either sex or no sex.
That's just not true at all. Did you even play the game?
@@abbeyBominable123 I did and that was what my friends and I all faced when interracting with the NPCs.
Yo I'm a huge Abigail Thorne fan and had no idea she was in the game. Now I'm more interested in playing it.
The only other game I can think of with a trans character is Watch Dogs 2. And according to Noah Caldwell-Gervais it's done surprisingly tastefully for Ubisoft.
Cool video! Hope you do 'em more frequently.
Everybody in my camp is always naked 😅😅😅
Is it just me or are have conservative prudes been oddly silent about this game? I haven't heard anything about their usual outrage!
Sadly there are still a lot of weirdos out there about the game, but it seems like mainstream media isn't being as weird about it as they were with Mass Effect (or at least, I can't find any Fox News stories about it on a quick scan). I'd consider that a step in the right direction at least!
Video game on auto play during a drive. good POV. Catch a sub! Hear you on your next video
Thanks! Looking forward to earning the interest with the next one.
Not sure why the YT algorithm offered this up to me, but I am SO glad it did. You basically nailed my thoughts on the romance aspect. I could never quite find the words to describe my... unease? Uncertainty? I didn't even *know* Nocturne was supposed to be trans. I went through the House of Grief with Shart and it was clear from their conversation that there was... subtext? Like here I am thinking, "okay, these two were lovers, right? Seems obvious?" and yet meanwhile, there SHOULD be a more direct reference to Nocturne's identity. Why half-ass this? Like you said though, I don't feel like the best person to give an opinion here; I'm not trans, so I feel kinda dumb weighing in, but that point in particular stood out.
And just... THANK YOU for "getting it" and explaining sooo well the... idk, weirdness? Of just being able to hook up everyone and anyone. On the one hand, I think it's nice that players can choose paths in the game with whatever companion they like, but on the other... (and you SHOWED DORIAN from DAI, bless you, he's ALWAYS the example that pops to mind) making a character's sexual/gender identity "locked" can be used as a great method to write more in-depth about their past.
But yeah, subbing and hoping for more thoughts. Also I loved that nod to your artist friend about the toilet, I laughed way harder at that than I probably should have. 😆
Really happy you got something from my analysis, thank you!
I agree, there's a lot of subtext implying Nocturne and Shart were lovers or at least romantically-inclined. It seems like it would've added more depth to both characters if these things had the chance to be explored through actual dialogue, or even a full on narrative quest.
If you have Shadowheart eat the noblestalk in act I she receives a memory of Nocturne prior to her transition, so if you did that it makes it clearer she’s trans when you meet her in act III.
Amazing video, I am glad I found this channel
Honestly? I could do with less thirsty characters. The one thing it has absolutely terrible representation for is asexual or people not looking for an outlet for sexual fantasies. The platonic relationships with characters in some instances kills further progression. Karlach is probably the main exception to that, most of them to finish their story properly requires a romance path. Gale is probably the best example of that. Its genuinely difficult to actually "just be friends" with several of the characters that begin relentlessly thirsting and hitting on Tav regardless if you make no advances and keep refusing them.
I'm not sure that's the case tbh? Just finished a playthrough where i did pretty much all the companion quests, and all i really needed was just getting their approval moderately high for certain story beats. Of course ive been hit on by wyll, gale and karlach, but you can safely skip any romance from laezel and shadowheart, gale got a 'choose friendship option', and i put wyll and karlach's advances down. Of course I havent romanced everyone yet, but Gale seems to be the only one where you being in love with him brings more depth to the story tbh. Also, there really is only one instance where you either make or break it with any character and they wont bother you past that. What IS lacking however is that platonic friendship is totally underutilised and you just have to believe that you are more than acquaintances with your team unless they get some side comments within their quests (or its just Karlach again who considers everyone a friend).
I agree and disagree with a lot of your video essay. However, I appreciate how well structured and clear it is.
I agree with what you say about the origin/party members being undefined by their sexual orientation or gender. I agree that can limit a characters' authenticity. I agree, the ability to objectivify, and sexually harass the party members limits the authenticity of any relationship the player has with a party member. I agree Larian did not consider the full rammifications of using the term deadnaming in context with a clearly trans character. I also agree that more representation is great!
I don't agree that Larian intended to confirm transphobia in Faerune with Nocturne. "Dead naming" in the context mentioned refers to someone's name prior to being initiated as a worshipper of Shar. That is why ShadowHeart could also be "dead named". Ofcourse, it may be possible that Larian intended S.Heart to be trans as well. However, nothing in the game that I've found suggests S.Heart was.
At least how i read every LGBTQ+ relationship outside of the party (as the party is flexible) was that it was unremarkable, aka normalized. Dayme Aylin and Isobel were a great couple because they loved eachother. Even the ugly bits. No one really cared that it was two women.
Nor can i be sure anyone could call an aasimar ridgidly gendered: they are angellic souls inhabiting mortal bodies. There is nothing to say that Dame Aylin hasn't embodied a masculine body before. Its like assigning genders to beings of pure energy or in simple terms, should we gender electrons or protons? Obviously, in the game, Dame Aylin is constantly referred to as "she" or "her", so im not doubting how Dame Aylin feels about herself.
Great video. I think there may have been a bit of Conflation between the two issues: 1. Representation from party members. 2. Representation from characters in the world. To me, these are different consideratons.
I'm not someone who is big on representation and obvious catering to atypical gender identities. I know a lot of games sort of overdo the whole representation to the point where they literally shove it down your throat at every conceivable opportunity. BG3 does a good job of having the representation in there without feeling the need to constantly preach to me about it or go out of it's way to guilt me into believing I'm a horrible person who should die because I don't cream myself at seeing a same sex couple. The world of BG3 has LGBT folks in there same as in real life, but in BG3, they are ordinary people, like you or me, and I think that's pretty fucking fantastic. It's there if you want it to be there, and not there if you don't want it to be there. A game that is truly for everyone.
I don't think I'm a horrible person when games are more explicit in their representation! I'm actually interested in seeing more explicit examples of representation from Larian and other studios going forward: one of the points I'm making is that I wish it WERE visible for everyone, so that the representation was not only for people who were already looking for it.
Still a step up from Baldurs gate 2 only having 3 kinds of elf and a twat for romance options.
Honestly some companions are way to pushy in this game, expecially Gale dude can't take a fucking hint, or even a blatant no he keeps fucking trying ive stopped talking to the character all together because of it
It's possible I overlooked something with this in my analysis! I've heard others say the same or similar things, especially about Gale. I wonder if there's a path I've missed where Gale comes off more aggressively, but it just hasn't been a problem in any of my runs. Maybe just one of many examples of how gargantuan the game is.
@internetcouch maybe I'm trying to put him down lightly or maybe I talk to my companions too much but he has had several times where he tries to engage with ne romantically, and the sad thing is i like his character can't we just be friends without you trying to get in my pants dude lol
Hmmmmm. So, there’s **too** much character freedom? This is really sounding like you want the game to be something that it’s not. Most modern rpgs have explicit options for queer and straight romance that are unassailable and the characters have preferences. So you can’t always romance who you want without mods. BG3 is such important rep because everybody is pansexual and this degree of player choice hasn’t been seen before. (Also, moralizing being “rewarded” for bad choices is never a good look, imo. It’s all fake, just let people have fun without taking it personally.)
I’m not saying you want the game to go “backwards” but you are suggesting unchangeable preferences would feel more authentic to these fake characters? This….just isn’t that game.
I’m sure BG3 is paving the way for more diverse narratives with much more complicated, fleshed out representations of gender and sexuality. And this was definitely a lot of overthinking about the degree of freedom a HUGE amount of people have been desperately waiting for. But, that was also the title of this video, so haha at me.
Dragon Age 2. All companions could be romanced regardless of you choosing Male or Female Hawke.
Its a DnD game. In my opinion the best way to look at it, as a DnD game, which means you create the story of your own game by your choices. I personally am on the note, that if someone wants to play it as full straight game, they should be allowed to. Which this game completely allows to do as you can turn down any companion's advances. Hells, some companions even approve if you just straight choose to "leave" any discussions with them. But obviously if they finish act2 with the good ending they will eventually meet at least 1 prominent gay couple. There are clearly people in this world who do not like wokness, gayness or trans agendas being pushed into their faces and I like how BG3 handled the fulls situation trying to cater to both sides. I find this video actually very funny cause there is a guy who made the exact opposite video saying that the game is too woke and has too much gayness in it. Poor Larian cannot win at all.
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5e commit some bullshit like elves romancing with dwarves or orcs..
The game includes a bunch of possibilities for all kinds of people to feel represented and to have the ability to just have some crazy fun. But it's still not good enough, because it's only good enough when it's forced down everyone's throats regardless of whether they care about it or has anything to do with the core story or not.
Basically all I've heard you say is that you're mad (for lack of a better word) that Nocturne being trans is a just a side thing that most wouldn't find out about. And you're mad that she's not special in any way, just some unromanceable NPC and 'vendor'. You're also mad that they point out that discrimination of all kinds exist in this world but don't include any clear political views/preferences in the story and instead leave it to the player to decide for themselves what they think of it and what they want to do about it in the game through the consequential choices. And finally the writing in general isn't deep or good enough for you either, because a teeny tiny part of the character's characterization is missing due to them not having a clear sexuality.
So in short you're mad that the game prioritizes everyone's fun over the sole fun of the minorities and the pro-LGBTQ message....because simply giving you the option to be whatever combination of body type, gender and sexuality with even quite a number of LGBTQ NPCs isn't representative enough for you. Wow.
And no, I don't think being rewarded with different romanceable companions for doing really anything (whether morally good or bad), in what was always advertised to be a rated R (with explicit seggs scenes) RPG game where your choices shape the story and choices moving forward is weird. If you find it weird to get freaky with Minthara after doing something horrendous, that's just your personal preference. Nothing wrong with that, the game never forced you to do either of those things. No need to question or take away the fun of those who do like to role-play as a morally evil/grey character. It's a RPG after all. It's only fair to reward everyone regardless of the choices they make.
I get the impression you're not really trying to hear what I'm saying.
I am curious about one thing though. Genuine question: you mention near the end that everyone should be rewarded regardless of choices made. But if that's the case, does it make sense that many of the best items are locked to the Good path? And the longest, most detailed romance scene is locked behind pure evil? Is the disparity there not odd in any way for you?
@@internetcouch Not sure which of the best items being locked to the good path you're talking about exactly. But I can understand that if you unalive or are mean to (nearly) everyone you run into, you're not going to get rewarded as much with items and such at the end of their quest or get to buy things from them anymore (in the case of vendors). Whether those are the best items I'm not so sure of though. There are plenty of more 'evil' characters for you to help out instead and they reward you with some very useful items as well (that you wouldn't get otherwise or at least not as easily). Especially act 2 and 3 seem to have such options like when figuring out a way to traverse the shadowlands (easier to accomplish with more evil options such as siding with Minthara, Nere and the half-man, half-spider guy if I'm not mistaken), or signing a contract with Raphael in act 3 to get easier and quicker access to the hammer (I don't know if he actually gives you the hammer though since I didn't pick that option, but I assume he does). But even in act 1 there are a few options, like siding with Ethel (initially at least) and letting her take your eye for a special condition and items etc. Or letting Abdirak...uhm...bless you with another kind of permanent condition. The one isn't necessarily a straight up evil choice, but what he does to you is definitely a more morally-questionable/sadistic one. Choosing between the two myconids in the underdark will also result in different rewards I believe, and one of them is clearly a bit more devious. Anyways I'm sure there are many other examples how doing the more 'evil' thing provides other kinds of advantages. These were just the first few that came to mind.
As for the Minthara seggs scene being the most detailed, I don't think there's a deeper meaning there. But let's say Larian did mean something by it, what does it matter? Like let's also look at some other more 'evil' character seggs scenes, such as the ascended Astarion, Haarlep, Mizora and Emperor ones. Those are also more detailed/bdsm-like/kinky I'd say. So maybe Larian believes that evil people tend to be more likely to indulge themselves completely in pleasing themselves (in more ways than one), cause of how 'evil' people tend to be more selfish or something like that. Let's say that is indeed what Larian is trying to show....why is that a problem? Wouldn't you say that just makes the writing/attention to detail more impressive? If they actually thought of that, isn't that a good thing? Or do you think this will somehow negatively impact society (the small portion of it that plays BG3 that is)? I don't know what you're trying to imply there, all you really said is that it's a little weird to include that, especially when the game is mostly designed for 'quick, cheap fun'. I'd say it's the opposite, I think that's exactly why it isn't weird. The game isn't trying to tell you what you should be thinking, that's against the entire point of its design (cause of the RPG elements and all that). So yeah, you're probably indeed 'not meant to think about it'.
Unless you're trying to say that Larian is trying to use the 'higher reward' that is Minthara's seggs scene as a way to motivate players to choose a more evil path in their playthroughs. I could agree with that, and it would make sense since most people usually do not try the evil path in these kinds of games....because it doesn't feel rewarding enough. So Larian perhaps tried to make up for that very common RPG issue by including this extra freaky seggs scene for example. But again, why is that a problem instead of a good thing and how does that relate to everything else you said about representation etc? Besides doesn't this scene being a higher reward then contradict the whole 'good run has better items' claim in a way? Wouldn't that just balance things out?
Also there's nothing wrong with the game being designed for quick, cheap fun. It's a videogame after all and probably part of the reason people love it so much. It's not trying to be anything other than quick, cheap fun and people have missed that in modern gaming, where it's often more so about long-term, tedious commitments doing daily quests and whatnot. Not to mention many modern games being incomplete experiences that can only truly be enjoyed if you put (more) money into it over the years following the game's release, rather than giving you the complete product that you can just quickly enjoy and have fun with (aka quick, cheap fun).
Imo this video looked more like you were just trying to overthink certain parts of the game, until you found ways to make problems out of things that aren't problems. Though of course your opinion may be different than mine, nothing wrong with that. If you don't like (aspects of) the design or writing etc. that's perfectly fine. But I can't say I felt like you actually made a point with this video. In fact I think that if the game had actually included the things you seemed to crave from it, it would not have been as successful as it now is (if successful at all). Again, much of what you said would be completely contradictory to the point of the game's design. And if that means that it's not your favorite type of game, no problem. But that doesn't make it weird or flawed in the ways you said/suggested it was.
Games are not movies and you can not force play you want others to do.. And i dont believe you even played as there are side nc relationship for people to see. Your just making a video to fund something to complain about.
Look there are a lot of fair complaints people can have about this video, but c'mon, I have clearly played this game.
I really liked being able to play the game and not have anyone imply I was evil for being white or male.
Only because I set gnomes on fire and send them into gnoll dens.