This interview lingers in my mind as I sort through what is so horribly wrong with it. I realized that John is using logical, fair arguments while King is not playing fair or logically. How can you survive in a system that communicates without logic, that forces people into a corner? That's crazy making. How do millions of people live with this?
Your podcast and ted talk helped me when I felt suicidal at byui. Hearing this makes me so frustrated. “Don’t speak publicly about your doubts or people will leave.” No sir, I left because of people like you who made me feel unwelcome. I think most people would stay if people allowed them to have questions without thinking they were sinners or offended or broken.
I cannot believe how intriguing & captivating these ALL are. I’m on #5 now & been thoroughly entertained. I cannot believe how patient, calm & loving John is during the entirety. It’s shocking
John Dehlin lies about not recording the meetings, and lies when he says the only reason he's not temple worthy is because of tithing, as he conveniently ignores his sexual affair with Rosebud.
"Instead of going to you, John, with your crazy validation and empathy, I'd really like you to direct them to me and other church leaders so we can ignore their concerns and repeat our canned testimonies at them. Mmkay?"
Several commenters mentioned how Mr. King sounds like so many "leaders" who have gone before. He does. Not only in verbiage, but voice modulation, phrasing, cadence and a general talking 'down' as if to a dim child. Egads! Does the church send its' leaders to classes to learn mormonspeak? You are so lucky to be rid of the existing church! From N.H. Patricia. 👵🏻 🤗 🥰
I've noticed this too. Similar inflection etc....what you said. I think it's just from years of hearing those who have come before (especially in general conference) and so it just happens without them even realizing it. Imo
I know I'm years late to listen to this but goddam, John, you are a smart mo-fo! These guys are afraid of you because you're smart, excercise critical thinking and offer rigorous evidence for your position. You are a scholar and a gentleman, John. Hats off to you and yours friend. I hope to meet you one day. I'll buy you a drink and meal of your choice and then leave you alone because I don't want to be creepy.
I’ve been excommunicated at 19 it was definitely a horrible experience I’m a 19 year old girl just fresh out of high school, sitting in a room filled with 12 men who have no clue who I am I moved from Oregon to salt lake right after graduation that’s a story in it’s self. I look back now and I’m so greatful to be a recovering mormon, my journey to be as happy as I have been the last 25 years wasn’t easy! Im am today still not ok with the whole disciplinary process that the men in the church set up. I am listening to your excommunication story’s right now and I’m blown away that they are saying YOUR WRONG IN YOUR THOUGHTS, Something has to be wrong with you to NOT just tow the line ! I feel as though these men talking with you are also doubting them selfs ! We all do at times but it’s not a problem we talk to someone we trust it go to therapy or talk with our friends and our spouses! I found your pod cast last week and even though I’ve really worked hard on these issues and what lead me to being excommunicated, I so would have benefited from you and those whom are with you ! Thank you for saving life’s and holding tge torch for those who can’t honks on to the light right now ! Love and light 💡 Susan in Utah ❤
I can’t believe they kick people out of churches just because they can like growing up Catholic looking back on everything that friends have either done. They can’t just turn around and kick you out of church or say we’re gonna kick you out of church and you can’t be a part of our faith anymore? This is bananas to me that there is even something called excommunication.It’s just another way to control and manipulate and scare people, and it’s very cult like. I’m sorry that you went through this!
You mean he used Google to research some of the things that he was concerned about? And how funny is it that he says to not record him for fear of being taken out of context, but yet he picks out random quotes that he does not provide the source for, from people that only told him about and he has not read them himself.
I’m watching this in 2023 after 29 years of life in the church. Been experiencing a for lack of a better word a crises of faith. John dehlin I’m sorry for how the church has done you. I fully believe that if the church would be honest. The church it’s self would be in a better place.
John Dehlin lies about not recording the meetings, and lies when he says the only reason he's not temple worthy is because of tithing, as he conveniently ignores his sexual affair with Rosebud.
@@leslieadams1083 why are you so caught up in the recording? This happened. Is there something you have to hide? Or something you don’t want people to see?
@@leslieadams1083 I encourage you to read (the Bible verse John 1:5 (the book of John New Testament, not Delhin). What does the Bible say about shining a light in all the dark places? And making all the dark secrets known
King [paraphrasing] :"I'm a surgeon. I'm a surgeon. I'm a surgeon...and I've been selected by the LDS brethren to cut John Dehlin out of the LDS Church...I'm a surgeon I'm a surgeon."
This is another reason why the saying, "The Mormon Jesus is not the Biblical Jesus" is true. Notice how the church always keeps everything secretive, hush hush and covered up, including these interviews, disciplinary courts, Temples, finances, etc. So cultish.
This feels like a very unhealthy relationship that needed to end. I understand the hope at the time to remain “together.” As a psychologist myself, I find so many flaws in King’s “logic” and statements that it’s really frustrating to listen. I admire John’s calm demeanor throughout. It scary that the LDS church gets extremely negative whenever they have no logic to condemn something they don’t like or answer to a valid question. It’s “don’t go there or else…”, even with valid discussions. Such a red flag! I grew up Catholic; and we were encouraged to question and discuss in school-questioned faith is stronger than absorbed faith. And while deconstruction is always tough-I went thru it myself and you often try desperately to hold on-this “breakup” was clearly a healthy thing long term.
I'm not a mormon, or a former mormon, but I am horrified how this "church" has treated you. I'm a born again Christian and I have had many doubts on my journey. I HAVE NEVER had a pastor question anything I have put on my Facebook, or question anything I have put on any other social media. Even when I was backsliding. This is NOT a church. I felt so happy though that you got him to admit that he had specific doubts. I truly laughed outloud!
Humility and patience are virtues and they pay off over time. Not many people know what true humility is. How many times did the President of Surgeons mention that he was a doctor or surgeon or a really smart person or call the entire stake "his"? It's not your stake, buddy.. its the stake that god himself called you to preside over. "Supposedly".... John you were right, you told him in 30 or 40 years I think the church will change their doctrine about gay and lesbian people. But it only took 5 1/2 years.. you've saved lives by doing your work. You've made these rigid men actually confront how their behavior affects their own families and communities. True humility is rare, and when a truly humble person stands up to powerful people who demand conformity no matter what and they still stand their ground and act with dignity and respect and actual science and reason and data people will eventually recognize it and it causes a movement to something better. Well done! John and Margi are heroes and I've never met you but I want you to know that I love you.
John Dehlin lies about not recording the meetings, and lies when he says the only reason he's not temple worthy is because of tithing, as he conveniently ignores his sexual affair with Rosebud.
Great point! I hadn't considered his role in forcing the church to back pedal on its assurance on LGBTQ church members. That was a life saving change. It's good to see that "eventually" is pressured enough, the church will eventually do the right thing. I guess their elitism and belief that they and only they know God's will isn't completely unwavering.
Legit. People here try to be diplomatic, but the truth is that this guy is an unethical, manipulative, gaslighting scumbag. Christ turned the other cheek. But He probably wouldn’t have been crucified if people weren’t such lackadaisical assholes. “I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” Elie Wiesel
You: "If I clarify the things I've said in th past and I'M SILENT FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE then we're good?" SP: "I think that is a form of repentance " Wow! If the price one pays to be a member of a church is to be silent (not think, not wrestle through ideas, not discuss them) for the rest of one's life then I don't think that is a place for thinking people. I was truly saddened to hear him work so hard to protect the institution. Yes, he is the SP, but you were asking for a bit of humanity. You deserved to be loved and not viewed/treated as an inconvenience. Thank you for sharing these interviews. I understand you moral delema about putting them online. Take care!!
thank you so much for your strength, integrity, refusal to step back and back down from what your soul and heart were saying to you, despite such opposition and threat of loss of your community. it's inspired so many of us. blessings to you and margi and your family.
I’m so glad that this is recorded and documented. It would interest me to talk to him 10 years later. You have held your ground and advocated for the lgbtqia community and done what you said you were going to. I’d be curious to see if he was still in the church. So many people have left.
I think I would have preferred to be put in a straight jacket and water boarded than to trade place with John in this meeting. Semantics was not the Presidents issue it was Johns truth that was. John I think you are a wonderful person and I’m so sorry you went through this.
Very interesting, you bring up facts about very questionable and untrue things about the Book of Mormon, a 10 year old would accept as questionable and Bryan King just totally believes is true and there for a reason. I do admire you for your patience. Very interesting and informative podcast. I like it and say thanks 😊
John Dehlin lies about not recording the meetings, and lies when he says the only reason he's not temple worthy is because of tithing, as he conveniently ignores his sexual affair with Rosebud.
Bryan King expects John to disenvow his own statements. Why does he not expect the church to disenvow some of their teachings?. The church should be on a disciplinary counsel.
45:10 King has a problem with people turning to John before turning to church leaders. DUH!! We've been to church leaders and most don't know where/what the Gospel Topic Essays are. So many are unaware of the history of the church. Thank you John for showing me the truth so I could make an informed decision.
Let me get this straight.... the gentleman who is leading this rather condescending exchange is a medical doctor who ignores science? Does he operate on his patients with his “feelings” as well?
So frustrating for him to dance around the issue. You can express your doubts openly but not if that has the potential to influence people... Which is effectively saying you can't express your doubts openly. They need to grow a backbone and own the censorship.
“The challenge we have now is to love you”. This statement made me so sad. You are easy to love even from online. It’s never wrong sharing your personal experiences and you have done so much good. Shame on them for having a hard time loving you
My “heart” hurts after listening to this. President King’s equivocation in not giving you defined steps for behavior seems now (Monday morning quarterbacking) like a setup to eventually be able to excommunicate you. I agree with Margi about the demeaning sense of this meeting. O how I ache at thinking about how this must have been for you and Margi and Pres King and the fourth person in the room.
If you apply Steve Hassan’s BITE model, it’s quite frightening how much of a hold the Mormon church has on it’s members. Leaders can inflict cruelty on its members and claim that what they are doing is God’s will taking away their own humanity. I want to believe the SP went to med school to heal and accepted the position of SP to help others. Sadly, the perception I get is he just became another cog in the corporate religion machine constantly mentioning how prosperous he’s been as a surgeon (gag) and his connections. I feel just sick to my stomach listening to how Dr. Dehlin has been treated. He has been patient explaining his case and composed. I’m not sure if Dr. Dehlin and his wife would approve of this compliment, but they are both badasses IMO.
I will add that you have to be so careful with anyone that causes harm to you especially those in religion and your close groups. You don’t know if they are being “human” and making a mistake with you or the religion/group you are in has enabled a covert narcissist. Since they are an angel on the outside, they could be a devil on the inside. It’s very hard to make that distinction at times.
This reminds me of every conversation I had with my parents and church leaders while I was still in the church. They (devout conservative Christians) really need everyone to just believe and when you can’t you force yourself to until you can’t think. Everything that hurts, its your problem and it’s sad that it hurts but that’s on you. If you just believe, if you just go with what you’re told, and ignore every doubt and wound, everything will be fine. Whatever you gotta do to keep your pain private and believe, do it, no matter how senseless and grotesque your mentality becomes. And that’s what I grieve about these systems. Truth and empathy and reality don’t matter. You can’t truly grow as person, you can’t follow your morals, you can’t truly love because the doctrine doesn’t allow it. No matter how much you care, no matter how genuine you are, not matter how factual your evidence, if it doesn’t align with doctrine, you are wrong and you must leave. And it’s so invasive. Why does it matter what each individual feels and believes, shouldn’t they be allowed to do as they will as long as no one being harmed? No, because in systemic religion it’s not about having a community and supporting each other, it’s about the power to control. That’s the through-line, that’s why truth and empathy don’t matter. They need the power to make you behave and think they way they choose, and truth and empathy doesn’t see power.
This was so difficult to listen to. They try to dodge your questions, shut down the truth, and refuse to acknowledge the cracks in the religion. After my mom told me the things in church history that she had found back in July, I went to church once after that. I was shattered and confused and didn't know who to believe. When I found out 6 months later that it was on the church website in the gospel topics essays, that's when I began to have angry feelings towards the church. They knew about it and they still try to keep the truth hidden from the members. I felt betrayed and decieved. Thank you for spreading the truth John. You were not the one spreading lies. People finding out the truth and knowing the church lied to them is what causes them to doubt their faith ❤
I was only 15 minutes into this “counsel” and I felt like I had to throw up. This makes me so sick to my stomach. This just reaffirms my decision to leave the church. I’ve told my mom that I’ve listened to countless counsels and none have been loving or kind. She said “Oh your dads been part of several and he says the opposite. I believe that my father has been loving and kind in these counsels. That’s just who he is. Very much leads by spirit of the law and not letter of the law. Probably why he wasn’t a second counselor for very long....This is a BIG example of unrighteous dominion. The Bishop sounds arrogant and cocky and he believes he’s above all. Omg. I’m so glad I’m not a part of this church anymore. 🤢🤢🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮
In a nutshell, they were excommunicated for speaking out. For telling the truth in a public space. For the LDS corp., it’s fine to have doubts and to disagree, as long as you do it in silence and isolation. How weak and fearful is this great “one true church”, if they cannot tolerate anybody’s questions or legitimate criticisms? It is pitiful, really. God’s one true church should be stronger than this.
Wow! He reads statements that are attributed to John but fails to provide any cites to show date or source of the statements but says John is free to dispute them....like how is he supposed to dispute something without any date or source? How does someone dispute something without any context? This is a ridiculous thing to suggest and is extra disgusting when these statements are the basis or "evidence" for the disciplinary action. John has posted and said many, many things over the years and condemning him for statements that come without any date or context appears very unfair and disingenuous. If he is going to use these statements as the basis for action, the very least he can do is provide cites to show when and where John made these statements so John can determine if the statements have been taken out of context. I also find the point about being "ordained a minister" in another religion as completely stupid. If that's a point of contention, it shows how much they are grasping at straws here. This shows how evil a blind faith and belief in religion can be. This stake president may be well intentioned but his actions have evil and ignorant consequences.
I disagree on this level - JW judicial committees are far more cruel and punitive. He would have been excommunicated years prior the first time any JW heard his podcast and went straight to the “elders” to report and think they were doing something good for sky daddy.
John Dehlin lies about not recording the meetings, and lies when he says the only reason he's not temple worthy is because of tithing, as he conveniently ignores his sexual affair with Rosebud.
@@leslieadams1083 the reason he recorded it and posted it is in the description. Several paragraphs. Why would u want this kept a secret tho? Are u ashamed?
@@leslieadams1083 It is interesting that you only recently signed up on UA-cam, so throwing out these allegations right now seems to be not credible. Is Leslie Adams your real name?
It’s so dangerous for the Church when their members speak openly or question openly. This President and his toady sounded like fools when John tried to help them clarify their own points. Their inability to see the inconsistency in how John was handling and treating them and how they were responding to him is laughable. It’s embarrassing listening to them shut down and just repeat statements that weren’t answering Johns simple questions. But- this is extremely typical. Thinking and reasoning past wrote answers doesn’t happen with priesthood leaders. Quoting correlated responses that don’t actually fit the question is all I’ve ever encountered within the church. Its one of the saddest and also most embarrassing things to have to relive this mental ineptitude via this interview. Sad people.
I’m so glad you shared this. I feel like he was being unfair and wouldn’t even provide sources or a timeline when those quotes were provided. I’d be outraged
One of the MOST VALUABLE things we teach children to help them grow is to use their brain and not just succumb to their feelings. Make use of logic as well as your emotions. How can this “leader” keep saying he only knows how he feels about the churches problematic positions. Furthermore it’s very clear King has a huge chip on his shoulder re: being smart. So many comments, “I may not be as smart as you....” “I may not know as much as you...” “I may not be curious about the truth like you”. All said like educating yourself is something to look down on. This from a surgeon???
Also I just love the idea that John isn’t doing what he should. He is doing something wrong in Kings eyes, but king is loathe to say what those things are. “I’m sure you’ll figure it out John.” King: Stop doing what you aren’t supposed to! John: What am I doing specifically? King: I think you know (arms crossed furrowed brow)
Mr King: "Evidence won't save us" Me: Oh but it can/does. Feelings alone won't save us either/alone, I can feel like I'm a great diciple, but if there is no evidence of that, then they're just feelings. Funny thing about feelings and evidence, is that they go together, but the church has been trying to further themselves from evidence because feelings are the only thing they can make sense of/control. "follow your heart, but take your brain with you".
His comment about we are heading in different directions and the public nature of his doubts were the most honest things he said in the whole discussion.
"You're allowed to have doubts and express them publicly" "So, what have I done wrong?" "Well, the problem is that not only do you have doubts, but that you express them publicly!"
This is extremely painful to listen to. And I’m only 26 minutes in. The superiority, the accusations without citations or proof, dismissing clarification as “semantics”...just the whole thing. Yikes. I’m so sorry you had to go through this.
John, Margi, you are too intelligent, knowledgeable, wise and have too much integrity and heart to belong to an organization that is always the last to do the right thing. You both evolved beyond the church. I am sorry they caused you and your family so much pain.
Wait so he does not want what he says to be taken out of context but it is okay for him to take your words out of context??? This question is not to sound bitter even though I'm sure it does. Shouldn't John be afforded the same curtousy?
I never realized LDS was so controlling until I ran across Mormom Stories. It is so sad how these people are brainwashed and controlled by others in the church. Very, very sad.
John Dehlin lies about not recording the meetings, and lies when he says the only reason he's not temple worthy is because of tithing, as he conveniently ignores his sexual affair with Rosebud.
King says that his family has suffered too because of this 🙄 I can't stand that! Wow it's so hard for your kids when you excommunicate someone when the Dehlin children are ostracized FROM THEIR ENTIRE COMMUNITY! Not to mention the inappropriate questions asked to his daughter! Jesus Christ what a total lack of situational awareness.
I’m just now seeing this in 2023! My goodness! It amazed me throughout the whole interview that he was soo arrogant. Making light of your real concerns and stating that it’s not ok to be public about doubts.. Of course that’s the church way! They just take their marching orders from the top and just trickles downs to the lowest levels.. They can’t speak their truth even if they did agree with yours. It would make them have to change direction and they don’t have that kind of courage.. because it is about having the courage to face your doubts and not buckle under to the system..
LOL I can't get over how this King character made himself and his family the victims like in the first few min of their chat. I can't deal with that kind of crap PERIOD. This is too much. I am floored and glued to this like a daytime soap of sorts. I am so proud of John and family!
This series is so powerful. As a never mormon Christian apostate it demonstrates the shifting sand that is faith and personal testimony. Christians use this same logic. I know it’s true cause I feel it and any evidence to the contrary is brushed away with faith. It’s easier to see it when it’s not your religion.
Just started#5. How can he judge you based on HIS testimony. I am so glad they all truly believe they get a set of keys. And what makes it bad is he is lying to you, about who is driving this force.
Faithful members of the church can have questions, but can’t express that in an open forum. Religious leaders of any organization will control that aspect of people’s lives, if they can.
I still don't understand how Faith supersedes truth if lies were clearly told. So are you telling me that I have to believe the lie and if I don't I'm not a believer? Heavy!
Yup, that's exactly what they're saying. Live the lie. You can question the lie, just don't say it out loud. If shutting your emotions up like that leads to suicide or depression, oh well.
So you can have doubts but you can't speak publicly about them, but then he changes to it's ok to express them publicly unless someone listens to them and then it's not and how questions of faith are a personal issue and shouldn't be taken to the world - and John shouldn't provide a forum to discuss or express doubts...clearly King feels John is doing something nefarious. It's obvious King isn't interested in having a conversation and doesn't have any interest in speaking honestly about the issues John is raising. I wonder if he knows how he comes across - it's definitely not in a christ-like manner. He claims to have empathy about John's concerns but he demonstrates very little empathy or patience or kindness in his interactions with John. He comes across as a cold, heartless tool of the church higher ups, regardless of his denials about this.
It sounds to me like he is worried about how he is going to be judged more than how the church will look. People who hold the power of judgement MUST have truthful answers to their believers.
I'm a faithful member of the church and I can say one reasons for why I still am is because of John Dehlin's podcast. I hope one day he might be vindicated but I don't think he would accept it now since it seems like he's moved on some. It's so painful to listen to this because John's tone did change but I wouldn't say that it was a further lose of faith at that time. It seemed like he was tired of dealing with this treatment so he comes across in a defensive way that just seemed to make this president feel more justified in his pursuit.
In these interviews each of these men have completely ignored the suicides and not address them at all. This kind of thing is why I learned "love hurts". They keep using the word love but they don't actually care about people. And they don't know they don't care. It's creepy.
The subtitles/CC mistakenly recorded the "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints" as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day sins...after watching all of John's excommunication videos up to this point and reflecting on the manner in which these were handled (or the fact that they were even held in the first place for a member earnestly trying to live that Church's gospel as authentically as they could) , I can't say I disagree with that characterization lol.
"That's your opinion, that's your opinion, that's your opinion"....Wow....Dr. Dehlin, you are the model person for maintaining calm and peace despite being attacked. I think I would have lost my mind and screamed. LOL And his feelings that he knows the church and BOM is true because of how he feels...bad deadly drugs can give you good feelings...feelings don't always mean diddly. But you already know that. So sorry you and your sweet wife had to go through that. I applauded all she said in the previous episode. I applaud you both, your love for each other and support, and your testament and your integrity in searching for truth and standing up for it. We all need to learn from you both! Thank you!
This is so pathetic and disturbing, and I'm so sorry you went through all of this nonsense John. More than ever, I'm happy with my decision to leave the church at 12 years old. At that time, I could not accept that God would choose a prophet based on having a penis, or having white skin. My Stake President could never come up with an answer for me about that. As I was taught, you judge the tree by it's fruit, and the fruit was rotten. Even the sing song pretend nice voice of the Church's officials makes my skin crawl.
"You don't want to go to a surgeon who's indecisive" also don't want to go to a surgeon who operates based on feelings... Commenting for the algorithm. I'm a never-Mo who finds this world fascinating. I can imagine this was heartbreaking and frustrating at the time but so glad you stuck to your guns, especially the support for the LGBTQ+ community.
John, I have shared your same doubts and feelings for 20 years. I believe EVERYBODY is agnostic. There is no one on the face of the earth that has ever KNOWN if there is a God or not. Thats what bothers me the most. When people get up and testify and say "I know" this or that. Its BS and THAT I do know. And now my moto is "get comfortable with not knowing." You are more Christ like than those men in the church judging you.
Wow, llike i said, in my other comment in part !: it´s the first time, I actually dug in deep into the LDS as an ex-catholic and this President gave me THE chivers and made my stomach turn. He could be the twin brother of our priest that I had to deal with as a whee girl just before my first communion. I actually sat here shaking like a leaf and crying whilst I was listening. This so called "good" and "kind" priest actually made me LIE during confessions meeting, and I had to come of with sins that I had commited, which I did not, so he could proof I was worthy for first communion and he even called me an apostate because I was asking questions during cathechism (I hope I spelled that one correctly, since I am still pretty shocked to the core because of this interview I was listing to and because english is NOT my motherlanguage ;-) ) I am so sorry the Dehlin family had to suffer through this. That is as cruel as our priest has been may he rest whereever our Lord put him. that man was verbally abusive to us girls, he was bullying us girls and he was also physical and mentally abusive to the boys in my class. I am not saying that this president is physically abusing others, but hey, he sounds just like that priest I had to endure till I was 17. Then I skipped church as often as I could, just I would not have to see his face or hear his voice. And then I just got rid of the catholic church and paying churchtaxes (which come off of our payroll monthly, when you are a member and it is sort of part of statetaxes, which means it is sometimes more then 10 percent of thighing money, and since I had enough of those "robes" and "penguins" I simply went to the state tax office and told them, sign me off. Which was no prob at all. I still believe, God is good tho, but the cath-church is NOT. They are only a bunch of lying B´s. And what some of them did to little children, and where not kicked in the butt by a bishop, cardinal of the pope himself, I have no respect anymore for them. And some nuns I came across where just the same, selfrightious hyenas. I only knew one nun, that was sweet and kind and gave all of her love to others. A true nun she was. When I told her what happend during first confession, she had actually tears in her eyes and she said to me, I should not think to much of it, and that God loved me, no matter what. and she held me in her arms, while I was sobbing like a wateringpot.
I’m listening to this in 2024. My activity in the church has been like a revolving door. As has my husband. This makes me angry. So angry. We aren’t active now and never will be. This speech is either bishop/SP 201.
When he said "sometimes people say on the internet what they wouldn't say in person and they're not thinking about how what they say can affect others" I was like "DUDE. People at church, and even the highest leaders of the church, said things every week or every conference that were deeply wounding to my soul." Seriously, it goes both ways, buddy. Dallin H. Oaks needs to think about how what he says injures others and leads to suicide.
I know this is years late, but having grown up in Cache Valley and seeing how my mom was treated during her ordeal with the excommunication process was that the treatment you received was no different than hers decades before the internet or podcasts. Your persecution was inevitable. This has been so revealing. I think this guy had an agenda and was probably directed by Church leadership. If you had stayed quiet or had not been in Logan, you might have been left alone. This guy is so dishonest and disingenuous. I am so glad you brought this to light. You know so much more than this arrogant prick.
Deep down inside I always knew that something was wrong, I just didn't know what. I covered up my own questions by simply obeying the church. I've got a long story due to the fact that I'm 72 years old. The mormon church leaders going out on channel 5 news with the November 15, 2015 announcement or whatever you want to call it caused hubby and I to leave. Should those so called brothern be exed??? Thank you Dr. Dehlin.
My heart aches for people in these situations. Truly a lifelong sacrifice that no human should be asked to make. Guidance to stay in abusive relationships, or to encourage marriage to divert other “unacceptable” tendencies is simply deplorable. Lots of pain. For me, ditching organized religion and just being a genuine soul with no answers was lifesaving.
All I hear in this entire conversation, the underlying issue is we’re losing members, we’re losing members, doubt is causing us to lose members.! It’s so hard not to listen to this, and not consume the information and the narrative as anything other than they’re afraid of losing money and members.
Ahhh their answers are so confusing. And not clear or straightforward. I hate feeling confused. Thanks again for reminding me why I'm so grateful I've left.
I am SO glad John recorded this.
I almost forgot he was a surgeon for the five seconds he didn’t mention it
😂💀
He was brought in to amputate the head that dared think for itself.
@@chrismiddleton4733Good one! 😂
hahaha perfect.
This interview lingers in my mind as I sort through what is so horribly wrong with it. I realized that John is using logical, fair arguments while King is not playing fair or logically. How can you survive in a system that communicates without logic, that forces people into a corner? That's crazy making. How do millions of people live with this?
So very true. You nailed it.
100 believe what you said. I am so not right
@dianejones7308 to that I would ask you, have you seen the mental illness statistics of the population of Utah?
King: semantics!
Dehlen: I don’t think you know what that word means.
Your podcast and ted talk helped me when I felt suicidal at byui. Hearing this makes me so frustrated. “Don’t speak publicly about your doubts or people will leave.” No sir, I left because of people like you who made me feel unwelcome. I think most people would stay if people allowed them to have questions without thinking they were sinners or offended or broken.
So glad you did not follow through with your suicide! You are a beautiful girl! Want to be friends?
I'm so sorry they made you feel invalidated. They also do it to abused children 😢
I cannot believe how intriguing & captivating these ALL are. I’m on #5 now & been thoroughly entertained. I cannot believe how patient, calm & loving John is during the entirety. It’s shocking
John Dehlin lies about not recording the meetings, and lies when he says the only reason he's not temple worthy is because of tithing, as he conveniently ignores his sexual affair with Rosebud.
L
His answers to questions (John's) are so Christ like! Who do you say that I am?
It’s almost 3 am and I can’t put them down 😭
"Instead of going to you, John, with your crazy validation and empathy, I'd really like you to direct them to me and other church leaders so we can ignore their concerns and repeat our canned testimonies at them. Mmkay?"
Okay, Mr. Dehlin. I've never been LDS, so I don't fully relate to the difficultly you went through. But, man, you ate that slippery weasel alive.
That dude stood no chance - and the bishop tried to bully. John is my hero.
Several commenters mentioned how Mr. King sounds like so many "leaders" who have gone before. He does. Not only in verbiage, but voice modulation, phrasing, cadence and a general talking 'down' as if to a dim child. Egads! Does the church send its' leaders to classes to learn mormonspeak? You are so lucky to be rid of the existing church! From N.H. Patricia. 👵🏻 🤗 🥰
I've noticed this too. Similar inflection etc....what you said. I think it's just from years of hearing those who have come before (especially in general conference) and so it just happens without them even realizing it. Imo
It's a lifetime of being around these people all the time. It's learned behavior. Church is where it's all unintentionally taught. Hahaha
Yeah they learn by example
'I definitely have wondered if Christ would build a commercial shopping mall' 😂😂 can't help but laugh
I know I'm years late to listen to this but goddam, John, you are a smart mo-fo! These guys are afraid of you because you're smart, excercise critical thinking and offer rigorous evidence for your position. You are a scholar and a gentleman, John. Hats off to you and yours friend. I hope to meet you one day. I'll buy you a drink and meal of your choice and then leave you alone because I don't want to be creepy.
I’ve been excommunicated at 19 it was definitely a horrible experience I’m a 19 year old girl just fresh out of high school, sitting in a room filled with 12 men who have no clue who I am I moved from Oregon to salt lake right after graduation that’s a story in it’s self.
I look back now and I’m so greatful to be a recovering mormon, my journey to be as happy as I have been the last 25 years wasn’t easy! Im am today still not ok with the whole disciplinary process that the men in the church set up.
I am listening to your excommunication story’s right now and I’m blown away that they are saying YOUR WRONG IN YOUR THOUGHTS,
Something has to be wrong with you to NOT just tow the line ! I feel as though these men talking with you are also doubting them selfs ! We all do at times but it’s not a problem we talk to someone we trust it go to therapy or talk with our friends and our spouses!
I found your pod cast last week and even though I’ve really worked hard on these issues and what lead me to being excommunicated, I so would have benefited from you and those whom are with you !
Thank you for saving life’s and holding tge torch for those who can’t honks on to the light right now !
Love and light 💡
Susan in Utah ❤
I’d love to hear your story some day Susan. - John
@@mormonstoriesme too! Your story is important, Susan. ❤
I can’t believe they kick people out of churches just because they can like growing up Catholic looking back on everything that friends have either done. They can’t just turn around and kick you out of church or say we’re gonna kick you out of church and you can’t be a part of our faith anymore? This is bananas to me that there is even something called excommunication.It’s just another way to control and manipulate and scare people, and it’s very cult like. I’m sorry that you went through this!
You mean he used Google to research some of the things that he was concerned about? And how funny is it that he says to not record him for fear of being taken out of context, but yet he picks out random quotes that he does not provide the source for, from people that only told him about and he has not read them himself.
Exactly!
It's so fucking hypocritical. It just blows my mind how stupid this person is. Like, seriously...
I’m watching this in 2023 after 29 years of life in the church. Been experiencing a for lack of a better word a crises of faith. John dehlin I’m sorry for how the church has done you. I fully believe that if the church would be honest. The church it’s self would be in a better place.
I should not have started this one before bed. I’m so worked up. 😂
"You ALLOW them to question their testimony... And I don't like that"
What?!?! Does he even hear himself??
Wait, can someone remind me what does King do for a living? It’s been a couple of seconds since he last mentioned it.
Dehlin: Do you have sympathy or empathy for people with doubts?
King: Well yes, but actually no.
John Dehlin lies about not recording the meetings, and lies when he says the only reason he's not temple worthy is because of tithing, as he conveniently ignores his sexual affair with Rosebud.
@@leslieadams1083 why are you so caught up in the recording? This happened. Is there something you have to hide? Or something you don’t want people to see?
@@leslieadams1083 I encourage you to read (the Bible verse John 1:5 (the book of John New Testament, not Delhin). What does the Bible say about shining a light in all the dark places? And making all the dark secrets known
@@leslieadams1083 and who is Rosebud?
King [paraphrasing] :"I'm a surgeon. I'm a surgeon. I'm a surgeon...and I've been selected by the LDS brethren to cut John Dehlin out of the LDS Church...I'm a surgeon I'm a surgeon."
This is another reason why the saying, "The Mormon Jesus is not the Biblical Jesus" is true. Notice how the church always keeps everything secretive, hush hush and covered up, including these interviews, disciplinary courts, Temples, finances, etc. So cultish.
That’s so true the baptism for the dead is also secretive and interviews
This feels like a very unhealthy relationship that needed to end. I understand the hope at the time to remain “together.” As a psychologist myself, I find so many flaws in King’s “logic” and statements that it’s really frustrating to listen. I admire John’s calm demeanor throughout. It scary that the LDS church gets extremely negative whenever they have no logic to condemn something they don’t like or answer to a valid question. It’s “don’t go there or else…”, even with valid discussions. Such a red flag! I grew up Catholic; and we were encouraged to question and discuss in school-questioned faith is stronger than absorbed faith. And while deconstruction is always tough-I went thru it myself and you often try desperately to hold on-this “breakup” was clearly a healthy thing long term.
I'm not a mormon, or a former mormon, but I am horrified how this "church" has treated you. I'm a born again Christian and I have had many doubts on my journey. I HAVE NEVER had a pastor question anything I have put on my Facebook, or question anything I have put on any other social media. Even when I was backsliding. This is NOT a church. I felt so happy though that you got him to admit that he had specific doubts. I truly laughed outloud!
It happens more than you think, I promise.
Thanks for being willing to relive this so we can learn from it ❤
Humility and patience are virtues and they pay off over time. Not many people know what true humility is. How many times did the President of Surgeons mention that he was a doctor or surgeon or a really smart person or call the entire stake "his"? It's not your stake, buddy.. its the stake that god himself called you to preside over. "Supposedly"....
John you were right, you told him in 30 or 40 years I think the church will change their doctrine about gay and lesbian people. But it only took 5 1/2 years.. you've saved lives by doing your work. You've made these rigid men actually confront how their behavior affects their own families and communities.
True humility is rare, and when a truly humble person stands up to powerful people who demand conformity no matter what and they still stand their ground and act with dignity and respect and actual science and reason and data people will eventually recognize it and it causes a movement to something better.
Well done! John and Margi are heroes and I've never met you but I want you to know that I love you.
Omh! He is a surgeon and he does not believe in facts!
John Dehlin lies about not recording the meetings, and lies when he says the only reason he's not temple worthy is because of tithing, as he conveniently ignores his sexual affair with Rosebud.
@@leslieadams1083 ... Who the hell is Rosebud?
Great point! I hadn't considered his role in forcing the church to back pedal on its assurance on LGBTQ church members. That was a life saving change. It's good to see that "eventually" is pressured enough, the church will eventually do the right thing. I guess their elitism and belief that they and only they know God's will isn't completely unwavering.
I cannot contain my rage while listening to this. And I'm only a quarter of the way through.
Legit. People here try to be diplomatic, but the truth is that this guy is an unethical, manipulative, gaslighting scumbag.
Christ turned the other cheek. But He probably wouldn’t have been crucified if people weren’t such lackadaisical assholes.
“I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.”
Elie Wiesel
And the sad part is the church organization plants these seeds and encourages these behaviors.
@@KitKat-gw4rh Absolutely.
I know what you mean! I am literally yelling at my laptop from time to time!
You: "If I clarify the things I've said in th past and I'M SILENT FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE then we're good?"
SP: "I think that is a form of repentance "
Wow! If the price one pays to be a member of a church is to be silent (not think, not wrestle through ideas, not discuss them) for the rest of one's life then I don't think that is a place for thinking people.
I was truly saddened to hear him work so hard to protect the institution. Yes, he is the SP, but you were asking for a bit of humanity.
You deserved to be loved and not viewed/treated as an inconvenience.
Thank you for sharing these interviews. I understand you moral delema about putting them online. Take care!!
Epic! Edge of seat! Thank you for being a voice John (and family). Your stance is dead on.
thank you so much for your strength, integrity, refusal to step back and back down from what your soul and heart were saying to you, despite such opposition and threat of loss of your community. it's inspired so many of us. blessings to you and margi and your family.
I’m so glad that this is recorded and documented. It would interest me to talk to him 10 years later. You have held your ground and advocated for the lgbtqia community and done what you said you were going to. I’d be curious to see if he was still in the church. So many people have left.
I think I would have preferred to be put in a straight jacket and water boarded than to trade place with John in this meeting. Semantics was not the Presidents issue it was Johns truth that was. John I think you are a wonderful person and I’m so sorry you went through this.
Very interesting, you bring up facts about very questionable and untrue things about the Book of Mormon, a 10 year old would accept as questionable and Bryan King just totally believes is true and there for a reason. I do admire you for your patience. Very interesting and informative podcast. I like it and say thanks 😊
These men know the facts but they far to invested in this cult so they just justify everything.
Listening to these I am reminded at how much ego Mormons are consumed with and how much prayer is worthless.
“Does it require faith when things are demonstrably false?” :)
John Dehlin lies about not recording the meetings, and lies when he says the only reason he's not temple worthy is because of tithing, as he conveniently ignores his sexual affair with Rosebud.
@@leslieadams1083 your copy pasta is not convincing and your 2 month old UA-cam account doesn’t help, 0/10 would not recommend
Bryan King expects John to disenvow his own statements. Why does he not expect the church to disenvow some of their teachings?. The church should be on a disciplinary counsel.
45:10 King has a problem with people turning to John before turning to church leaders. DUH!! We've been to church leaders and most don't know where/what the Gospel Topic Essays are. So many are unaware of the history of the church.
Thank you John for showing me the truth so I could make an informed decision.
Let me get this straight.... the gentleman who is leading this rather condescending exchange is a medical doctor who ignores science? Does he operate on his patients with his “feelings” as well?
So frustrating for him to dance around the issue. You can express your doubts openly but not if that has the potential to influence people... Which is effectively saying you can't express your doubts openly. They need to grow a backbone and own the censorship.
“The challenge we have now is to love you”. This statement made me so sad. You are easy to love even from online. It’s never wrong sharing your personal experiences and you have done so much good. Shame on them for having a hard time loving you
My “heart” hurts after listening to this. President King’s equivocation in not giving you defined steps for behavior seems now (Monday morning quarterbacking) like a setup to eventually be able to excommunicate you. I agree with Margi about the demeaning sense of this meeting. O how I ache at thinking about how this must have been for you and Margi and Pres King and the fourth person in the room.
If you apply Steve Hassan’s BITE model, it’s quite frightening how much of a hold the Mormon church has on it’s members. Leaders can inflict cruelty on its members and claim that what they are doing is God’s will taking away their own humanity. I want to believe the SP went to med school to heal and accepted the position of SP to help others. Sadly, the perception I get is he just became another cog in the corporate religion machine constantly mentioning how prosperous he’s been as a surgeon (gag) and his connections. I feel just sick to my stomach listening to how Dr. Dehlin has been treated. He has been patient explaining his case and composed. I’m not sure if Dr. Dehlin and his wife would approve of this compliment, but they are both badasses IMO.
I will add that you have to be so careful with anyone that causes harm to you especially those in religion and your close groups. You don’t know if they are being “human” and making a mistake with you or the religion/group you are in has enabled a covert narcissist. Since they are an angel on the outside, they could be a devil on the inside. It’s very hard to make that distinction at times.
This reminds me of every conversation I had with my parents and church leaders while I was still in the church. They (devout conservative Christians) really need everyone to just believe and when you can’t you force yourself to until you can’t think. Everything that hurts, its your problem and it’s sad that it hurts but that’s on you. If you just believe, if you just go with what you’re told, and ignore every doubt and wound, everything will be fine. Whatever you gotta do to keep your pain private and believe, do it, no matter how senseless and grotesque your mentality becomes. And that’s what I grieve about these systems. Truth and empathy and reality don’t matter. You can’t truly grow as person, you can’t follow your morals, you can’t truly love because the doctrine doesn’t allow it. No matter how much you care, no matter how genuine you are, not matter how factual your evidence, if it doesn’t align with doctrine, you are wrong and you must leave. And it’s so invasive. Why does it matter what each individual feels and believes, shouldn’t they be allowed to do as they will as long as no one being harmed? No, because in systemic religion it’s not about having a community and supporting each other, it’s about the power to control. That’s the through-line, that’s why truth and empathy don’t matter. They need the power to make you behave and think they way they choose, and truth and empathy doesn’t see power.
This was so difficult to listen to. They try to dodge your questions, shut down the truth, and refuse to acknowledge the cracks in the religion. After my mom told me the things in church history that she had found back in July, I went to church once after that. I was shattered and confused and didn't know who to believe. When I found out 6 months later that it was on the church website in the gospel topics essays, that's when I began to have angry feelings towards the church. They knew about it and they still try to keep the truth hidden from the members. I felt betrayed and decieved. Thank you for spreading the truth John. You were not the one spreading lies. People finding out the truth and knowing the church lied to them is what causes them to doubt their faith ❤
I was only 15 minutes into this “counsel” and I felt like I had to throw up. This makes me so sick to my stomach. This just reaffirms my decision to leave the church. I’ve told my mom that I’ve listened to countless counsels and none have been loving or kind. She said “Oh your dads been part of several and he says the opposite. I believe that my father has been loving and kind in these counsels. That’s just who he is. Very much leads by spirit of the law and not letter of the law. Probably why he wasn’t a second counselor for very long....This is a BIG example of unrighteous dominion. The Bishop sounds arrogant and cocky and he believes he’s above all. Omg. I’m so glad I’m not a part of this church anymore. 🤢🤢🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮
I could summarize this interview as "This is not the question I'm asking, are you gonna answer my question" (blank response)
In a nutshell, they were excommunicated for speaking out. For telling the truth in a public space. For the LDS corp., it’s fine to have doubts and to disagree, as long as you do it in silence and isolation. How weak and fearful is this great “one true church”, if they cannot tolerate anybody’s questions or legitimate criticisms? It is pitiful, really. God’s one true church should be stronger than this.
Do all Bishops and SP have the same voice pattern and degrading voice? Sound like some of mine.
Wow! He reads statements that are attributed to John but fails to provide any cites to show date or source of the statements but says John is free to dispute them....like how is he supposed to dispute something without any date or source? How does someone dispute something without any context? This is a ridiculous thing to suggest and is extra disgusting when these statements are the basis or "evidence" for the disciplinary action. John has posted and said many, many things over the years and condemning him for statements that come without any date or context appears very unfair and disingenuous. If he is going to use these statements as the basis for action, the very least he can do is provide cites to show when and where John made these statements so John can determine if the statements have been taken out of context. I also find the point about being "ordained a minister" in another religion as completely stupid. If that's a point of contention, it shows how much they are grasping at straws here. This shows how evil a blind faith and belief in religion can be. This stake president may be well intentioned but his actions have evil and ignorant consequences.
“I just lob the accusations. It’s up to you to prove me wrong.”
This is like a Jehovah’s Witness judicial committee. Agree we have the truth or you’re out. No questioning or criticism allowed.
That’s cult behavior.
I disagree on this level - JW judicial committees are far more cruel and punitive. He would have been excommunicated years prior the first time any JW heard his podcast and went straight to the “elders” to report and think they were doing something good for sky daddy.
Him giving you all the ultimatums really break my ❤ for you John!!
Thanks for posting this, John. He is trying limit who you can interview! ;-)
John Dehlin lies about not recording the meetings, and lies when he says the only reason he's not temple worthy is because of tithing, as he conveniently ignores his sexual affair with Rosebud.
@@leslieadams1083 Rosebud? How do you know and why did you wait till now to post this?
@@leslieadams1083 the reason he recorded it and posted it is in the description. Several paragraphs. Why would u want this kept a secret tho? Are u ashamed?
@@leslieadams1083 It is interesting that you only recently signed up on UA-cam, so throwing out these allegations right now seems to be not credible. Is Leslie Adams your real name?
John, you are my new hero!
It’s so dangerous for the Church when their members speak openly or question openly. This President and his toady sounded like fools when John tried to help them clarify their own points. Their inability to see the inconsistency in how John was handling and treating them and how they were responding to him is laughable. It’s embarrassing listening to them shut down and just repeat statements that weren’t answering Johns simple questions. But- this is extremely typical. Thinking and reasoning past wrote answers doesn’t happen with priesthood leaders. Quoting correlated responses that don’t actually fit the question is all I’ve ever encountered within the church. Its one of the saddest and also most embarrassing things to have to relive this mental ineptitude via this interview. Sad people.
I’m so glad you shared this. I feel like he was being unfair and wouldn’t even provide sources or a timeline when those quotes were provided. I’d be outraged
One of the MOST VALUABLE things we teach children to help them grow is to use their brain and not just succumb to their feelings. Make use of logic as well as your emotions. How can this “leader” keep saying he only knows how he feels about the churches problematic positions.
Furthermore it’s very clear King has a huge chip on his shoulder re: being smart. So many comments, “I may not be as smart as you....” “I may not know as much as you...” “I may not be curious about the truth like you”. All said like educating yourself is something to look down on. This from a surgeon???
Also I just love the idea that John isn’t doing what he should. He is doing something wrong in Kings eyes, but king is loathe to say what those things are. “I’m sure you’ll figure it out John.”
King: Stop doing what you aren’t supposed to!
John: What am I doing specifically?
King: I think you know (arms crossed furrowed brow)
Mr King: "Evidence won't save us"
Me: Oh but it can/does. Feelings alone won't save us either/alone, I can feel like I'm a great diciple, but if there is no evidence of that, then they're just feelings.
Funny thing about feelings and evidence, is that they go together, but the church has been trying to further themselves from evidence because feelings are the only thing they can make sense of/control.
"follow your heart, but take your brain with you".
His comment about we are heading in different directions and the public nature of his doubts were the most honest things he said in the whole discussion.
"You're allowed to have doubts and express them publicly"
"So, what have I done wrong?"
"Well, the problem is that not only do you have doubts, but that you express them publicly!"
This is extremely painful to listen to. And I’m only 26 minutes in. The superiority, the accusations without citations or proof, dismissing clarification as “semantics”...just the whole thing. Yikes. I’m so sorry you had to go through this.
John, Margi, you are too intelligent, knowledgeable, wise and have too much integrity and heart to belong to an organization that is always the last to do the right thing. You both evolved beyond the church. I am sorry they caused you and your family so much pain.
Wait so he does not want what he says to be taken out of context but it is okay for him to take your words out of context??? This question is not to sound bitter even though I'm sure it does. Shouldn't John be afforded the same curtousy?
I thought the same thing!
I never realized LDS was so controlling until I ran across Mormom Stories. It is so sad how these people are brainwashed and controlled by others in the church. Very, very sad.
Well now I know never to get surgery from someone named Bryan King haha (I'm in Utah)
So glad John came ready to challenge bad arguments. King: “You’re too smart, and it’s making me uncomfortable!”
President King thinks he's the real victim in this meeting. 😂😂😂
John is a patient man. I would have walked out around 40 minutes into the meeting.
John Dehlin lies about not recording the meetings, and lies when he says the only reason he's not temple worthy is because of tithing, as he conveniently ignores his sexual affair with Rosebud.
@@leslieadams1083 have you commented the same in every video in this series? Is the second time I find your anger reading the comments. 😂
King says that his family has suffered too because of this 🙄 I can't stand that! Wow it's so hard for your kids when you excommunicate someone when the Dehlin children are ostracized FROM THEIR ENTIRE COMMUNITY! Not to mention the inappropriate questions asked to his daughter! Jesus Christ what a total lack of situational awareness.
I’m just now seeing this in 2023! My goodness! It amazed me throughout the whole interview that he was soo arrogant. Making light of your real concerns and stating that it’s not ok to be public about doubts.. Of course that’s the church way! They just take their marching orders from the top and just trickles downs to the lowest levels.. They can’t speak their truth even if they did agree with yours. It would make them have to change direction and they don’t have that kind of courage.. because it is about having the courage to face your doubts and not buckle under to the system..
LOL I can't get over how this King character made himself and his family the victims like in the first few min of their chat. I can't deal with that kind of crap PERIOD. This is too much. I am floored and glued to this like a daytime soap of sorts. I am so proud of John and family!
This series is so powerful. As a never mormon Christian apostate it demonstrates the shifting sand that is faith and personal testimony. Christians use this same logic. I know it’s true cause I feel it and any evidence to the contrary is brushed away with faith. It’s easier to see it when it’s not your religion.
Just started#5. How can he judge you based on HIS testimony. I am so glad they all truly believe they get a set of keys. And what makes it bad is he is lying to you, about who is driving this force.
"I don't think evidence is going to provide you salvation" is WILD. WTF!
Faithful members of the church can have questions, but can’t express that in an open forum.
Religious leaders of any organization will control that aspect of people’s lives, if they can.
You can also be gay and be a member but you can't express any of those feelings in the open
I still don't understand how Faith supersedes truth if lies were clearly told. So are you telling me that I have to believe the lie and if I don't I'm not a believer? Heavy!
Yup, that's exactly what they're saying. Live the lie. You can question the lie, just don't say it out loud. If shutting your emotions up like that leads to suicide or depression, oh well.
So you can have doubts but you can't speak publicly about them, but then he changes to it's ok to express them publicly unless someone listens to them and then it's not and how questions of faith are a personal issue and shouldn't be taken to the world - and John shouldn't provide a forum to discuss or express doubts...clearly King feels John is doing something nefarious. It's obvious King isn't interested in having a conversation and doesn't have any interest in speaking honestly about the issues John is raising. I wonder if he knows how he comes across - it's definitely not in a christ-like manner. He claims to have empathy about John's concerns but he demonstrates very little empathy or patience or kindness in his interactions with John. He comes across as a cold, heartless tool of the church higher ups, regardless of his denials about this.
As long as your audience is smaller than his...
It sounds to me like he is worried about how he is going to be judged more than how the church will look. People who hold the power of judgement MUST have truthful answers to their believers.
This is agonising to listen to, my excommunication was much simpler having been a sinner in the eyes of the church.
" I'm human, you're human". Yet, he prays as a human to know what type of consequences to yield over another human, in the name of God
"Yeah, because they don't know about it." 😂😂😂
I'm a faithful member of the church and I can say one reasons for why I still am is because of John Dehlin's podcast. I hope one day he might be vindicated but I don't think he would accept it now since it seems like he's moved on some. It's so painful to listen to this because John's tone did change but I wouldn't say that it was a further lose of faith at that time. It seemed like he was tired of dealing with this treatment so he comes across in a defensive way that just seemed to make this president feel more justified in his pursuit.
And it was most likely the higher ups chose this specific stake president for that exact reason
This interview makes it clear that his view of God’s plan is conformity or else. If you can’t agree with everything as he sees it, you gotta go!
‘I don’t want this recorded or shared’, 🤔 how come? Going to show your true colors?
In these interviews each of these men have completely ignored the suicides and not address them at all. This kind of thing is why I learned "love hurts". They keep using the word love but they don't actually care about people. And they don't know they don't care. It's creepy.
The subtitles/CC mistakenly recorded the "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints" as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day sins...after watching all of John's excommunication videos up to this point and reflecting on the manner in which these were handled (or the fact that they were even held in the first place for a member earnestly trying to live that Church's gospel as authentically as they could) , I can't say I disagree with that characterization lol.
"That's your opinion, that's your opinion, that's your opinion"....Wow....Dr. Dehlin, you are the model person for maintaining calm and peace despite being attacked. I think I would have lost my mind and screamed. LOL And his feelings that he knows the church and BOM is true because of how he feels...bad deadly drugs can give you good feelings...feelings don't always mean diddly. But you already know that. So sorry you and your sweet wife had to go through that. I applauded all she said in the previous episode. I applaud you both, your love for each other and support, and your testament and your integrity in searching for truth and standing up for it. We all need to learn from you both! Thank you!
This is so pathetic and disturbing, and I'm so sorry you went through all of this nonsense John. More than ever, I'm happy with my decision to leave the church at 12 years old. At that time, I could not accept that God would choose a prophet based on having a penis, or having white skin. My Stake President could never come up with an answer for me about that. As I was taught, you judge the tree by it's fruit, and the fruit was rotten. Even the sing song pretend nice voice of the Church's officials makes my skin crawl.
I'm Human, You are HUMAN. Just do it MY WAY!
"You don't want to go to a surgeon who's indecisive" also don't want to go to a surgeon who operates based on feelings... Commenting for the algorithm. I'm a never-Mo who finds this world fascinating. I can imagine this was heartbreaking and frustrating at the time but so glad you stuck to your guns, especially the support for the LGBTQ+ community.
They’re totally missing the fact that all the people who have “been shown the door” were the ones that sought out that door
Jesus, it's like talking to my parents (not religous, just bad communicators xD).
Respect John!
John, I have shared your same doubts and feelings for 20 years. I believe EVERYBODY is agnostic. There is no one on the face of the earth that has ever KNOWN if there is a God or not. Thats what bothers me the most. When people get up and testify and say "I know" this or that. Its BS and THAT I do know. And now my moto is "get comfortable with not knowing." You are more Christ like than those men in the church judging you.
Wow, llike i said, in my other comment in part !: it´s the first time, I actually dug in deep into the LDS as an ex-catholic and this President gave me THE chivers and made my stomach turn. He could be the twin brother of our priest that I had to deal with as a whee girl just before my first communion. I actually sat here shaking like a leaf and crying whilst I was listening. This so called "good" and "kind" priest actually made me LIE during confessions meeting, and I had to come of with sins that I had commited, which I did not, so he could proof I was worthy for first communion and he even called me an apostate because I was asking questions during cathechism (I hope I spelled that one correctly, since I am still pretty shocked to the core because of this interview I was listing to and because english is NOT my motherlanguage ;-) ) I am so sorry the Dehlin family had to suffer through this. That is as cruel as our priest has been may he rest whereever our Lord put him. that man was verbally abusive to us girls, he was bullying us girls and he was also physical and mentally abusive to the boys in my class. I am not saying that this president is physically abusing others, but hey, he sounds just like that priest I had to endure till I was 17. Then I skipped church as often as I could, just I would not have to see his face or hear his voice. And then I just got rid of the catholic church and paying churchtaxes (which come off of our payroll monthly, when you are a member and it is sort of part of statetaxes, which means it is sometimes more then 10 percent of thighing money, and since I had enough of those "robes" and "penguins" I simply went to the state tax office and told them, sign me off. Which was no prob at all. I still believe, God is good tho, but the cath-church is NOT. They are only a bunch of lying B´s. And what some of them did to little children, and where not kicked in the butt by a bishop, cardinal of the pope himself, I have no respect anymore for them. And some nuns I came across where just the same, selfrightious hyenas. I only knew one nun, that was sweet and kind and gave all of her love to others. A true nun she was. When I told her what happend during first confession, she had actually tears in her eyes and she said to me, I should not think to much of it, and that God loved me, no matter what. and she held me in her arms, while I was sobbing like a wateringpot.
That nun sounds awesome!❤
I’m listening to this in 2024. My activity in the church has been like a revolving door. As has my husband. This makes me angry. So angry. We aren’t active now and never will be. This speech is either bishop/SP 201.
When he said "sometimes people say on the internet what they wouldn't say in person and they're not thinking about how what they say can affect others" I was like "DUDE. People at church, and even the highest leaders of the church, said things every week or every conference that were deeply wounding to my soul." Seriously, it goes both ways, buddy. Dallin H. Oaks needs to think about how what he says injures others and leads to suicide.
I know this is years late, but having grown up in Cache Valley and seeing how my mom was treated during her ordeal with the excommunication process was that the treatment you received was no different than hers decades before the internet or podcasts. Your persecution was inevitable. This has been so revealing. I think this guy had an agenda and was probably directed by Church leadership. If you had stayed quiet or had not been in Logan, you might have been left alone. This guy is so dishonest and disingenuous. I am so glad you brought this to light. You know so much more than this arrogant prick.
They want you to blindly believe and shut up. If I didn't know this wasn't a true church before I listened to this, I certainly know now.
Deep down inside I always knew that something was wrong, I just didn't know what. I covered up my own questions by simply obeying the church. I've got a long story due to the fact that I'm 72 years old. The mormon church leaders going out on channel 5 news with the November 15, 2015 announcement or whatever you want to call it caused hubby and I to leave. Should those so called brothern be exed??? Thank you Dr. Dehlin.
My heart aches for people in these situations. Truly a lifelong sacrifice that no human should be asked to make. Guidance to stay in abusive relationships, or to encourage marriage to divert other “unacceptable” tendencies is simply deplorable. Lots of pain. For me, ditching organized religion and just being a genuine soul with no answers was lifesaving.
@@Plant12day “..just being a genuine soul with no answers was lifesaving.”
🙏🏽🙏🏽 thank you for this! I NEEDED to see that today! 💞
All I hear in this entire conversation, the underlying issue is we’re losing members, we’re losing members, doubt is causing us to lose members.! It’s so hard not to listen to this, and not consume the information and the narrative as anything other than they’re afraid of losing money and members.
Ahhh their answers are so confusing. And not clear or straightforward. I hate feeling confused. Thanks again for reminding me why I'm so grateful I've left.
Let's all go roll around in thumb tacks! 52:50 says it all.
I love how you’re questioning them on their logic! It is funny!