Getting assessed at Lattice - Some surprises for me!
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- Опубліковано 17 чер 2024
- I went to Lattice Training for an assessment of my finger strength and endurance. I mostly compare myself to my own performance in the past, but it was useful & surprising to compare my own strength numbers to others who climb at the same level or higher.
Chapters:
00:00 - The performance testing and rationale for it
03:31 - My prior assumptions about my strengths/weaknesses
04:40 - Is rate of force development trainable?
05:52 - How does my age and injury history affect my training?
07:02 - The finger strength testing
08:40 - Speculating on why I like the 3 finger drag grip so much
10:45 - The finger endurance testing - critical force
14:58 - Discussing my results
26:06 - W’ (power endurance)
27:05 - Initial reactions to the results
30:50 - Low carb diet and power endurance
33:30 - What factors influence critical force (endurance)
36:49 - My own conclusions and thoughts about the testing
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Confirmed: Dave is a beast 💪
Great episode! I especially liked how Ollie gave some context to the results, but also didn't try to pretend we fully understand the underlying physiological mechanisms. Really shows they know what they are talking about.
Yes I liked this too.
Indeed. In other words, ipse se nihil scire id unum sciat.
yeah it wasn't some wooly marketing pitch
It is still early days on this. Also, all sports have an "X-factor" that transcends pure physical performance, which is why psych and strategy are so important.
@@climbermacleod they have a saying in cycling… ‘it never gets easier, you just get faster’
31:50 Mad respect for this answer, Ollie. Spoken like a true scientist, and it's answers like that which give me confidence that when you do make a claim, you have data to back it up.
Would genuinely love to see this in a long form collab type of series. Updates to your training routines, periodically checking in with lattice to gauge progress and improvements (assuming it didn't disrupt your own schedule, obviously) as you push towards a 9b. Feel like it would be beneficial to both parties to take information from a long term study of sorts.
Fantastic video and great to see you link up with Lattice Training (which has always felt like a natural fit in terms of a thoughtful approach). If only there was a new (old) 9a+ on a familiar Scottish crag... 😁
Haha good comment!
C'mon...give it up to us non-UK fans 👂🤚
@@terraflow__bryanburdo4547 I think it is "Free at last", in Dumbarton, recent FA from Will Bosi!
What a blast to watch. 3 fingers drag is awesome, I've seen the kids do it quite naturally sometimes.
What a great video - potentially one of your best episodes! Really insightful and informative - I have always been curious to know these kind of results of yours Dave! Such a level-headed and knowledgeable athlete - what a role model for us all.
Wonderful content as ever, thanks Dave!
Fantastic look at the inside of what lattice testing is like and how a post analysis discussion may modify training. I'll be honest, with the fire hydrant of content coming out of lattice, online, I had kind of tuned out of what they were up to but this video has given me new respect for their methods. Really excited to see how this affect your future projects.
Always such pleasure to listen to your extremely thoughtful approach to things. That's so rare.
Brilliant Dave. As always, your videos are thorough and well thought out.
Amazing, will be interesting to see how you take on this information and I can't help looking forward to see where it leads.
Great video. Fascinating discussion. Great attitude and reflection Dave
Great video! I enjoyed the conversations between you and Ollie and your analysis at the end was fantastic!
I couldn't wait for this episode! Every time you downplay your finger strength in videos I always have a good eye roll. It makes perfect sense to me that an athlete like yourself who values the hangboard and spends lots of time on one over many years would crush the lattice test.
Really interesting to hear your recap and ponderings at the end.
Great video! You mentioned making a video on open hand grip - I would LOVE to see this. I am just now learning how much stronger my open grip is, and trying to apply that on routes.
I am also looking forward to your 9a+ send video :)
Love the complex, detailed analysis! Learned so much. That discussion about the next level of scientific development allowing us to measure glycogen response to loading is so exciting to think about. Lots of food for thought here. Thanks for the awesome content!
Dave, you make the best climbing vids! Awesome video again, thanks!
The level of depth and substance you provide in your videos is really wonderful. I really appreciate that you dive into your chosen topics with honesty and rigorous examination. I can always count on high quality when I click your videos. Strong as hell for a guy who grew up on sugar drinks and cakes! Looking forward to your next project/send video. Legend.
Great nerdy atmosphere, and lots of useful information. It will be interesting, which way you're gonna choose. Good luck with that 9a+!
Great video! I'd love to see a follow up video with any training interventions you made based on the testing and the ensuing results.
What a great episode! Its fun to have these type of analysts associated with the sport. We can really learn a lot of things through a complete computer-like map of our physical bodies
This is great Dave & Ollie - exciting to see how exceptional sports science is applied and informs our sport 👍
extremely interesting.
I think your the most interesting athlete that I've seen on the lattice test!
Really strong
Very insightful video. I was always curious what went into a status quo analysis and on what basis lattice would then formulate their recommendation. And your conclusion at the end is very important too reflecting upon the test outcome but considering major factors like injury risk too.
This type of analytic breakdown of details is incredibly motivating to take a more „professional“ approach to training and making it more consistent and purpose driven :)
I would love to see a video on your use of 3 finger drag grips. I've been finally accepting and dealing with my over reliance on full crimps and the increase in drag strength and reduction in finger pain (and pulley injury) is wonderful.
At last an instructive vlog on Lattice testing. Really enjoyed the in-depth discussion, the why, the what, the how they connect etc.
As for your question, could you see yourself foregoing all but one discipline for, say, a year in order to really knuckle down and try to improve the areas needed for that one project? You could pick a 9a+ or 9b and put everything into it. That way you'd see whether or not the avenues alluded to by the testing were relevant, or workable.
Yes I have pondered doing this for a long time. I kind of have done it for months at a time in previous years, but mainly in bouldering and trad. But a year could add a significant bump in potential???
@@climbermacleod Only one way to find out...
@@climbermacleod You are an inspiration brother. Get that 9b (and beyond)!
Very interesting Dave, thanks for posting.
Such an inspiring display of knowledge based approach to a simple description: you're strong! and now we're waiting for the 9a+/b send video!
Awesome, waiting to see the 9b send!
Absolutely loved this
Excited to see the 9a+ road map, progression and send Dave.
Thanks for all of those information! I think Moonboarding is very good for rate of force development. If you try problems set by others is always different than you own problems
Let me say that this Episode was so good that i will definitely come back to watch it again.
As a sports PT i miss nuanced and data driven disscusion in the field of climbing. That Episode not only provided that but it made me rethink some aspects of physiology.
Thanks again for your consistent high quality contend!
I found this episode very interesting! I suspect we have a similar style of muscle performance (albeit at very different levels). I’ve always felt across sports that my overall strength was pretty good, but that my “explosiveness” was terrible. This suggests I have problems with my rate of force generation and perhaps I can adjust my training to account for this.
You talk a lot about tracking your climbing, reflecting on how a a session/climb felt, and measuring progress/whats working for your training. I was wondering if you might have any plans to make a video discussing how you track all of this information? Do you use a journal, spreadsheet, etc.? Loved the vid
Superb Dave. Your analysis seems spot on. Based on endurance science you will be lowering your ultimate force production on a low carb diet. This has been well demonstrated in cycling. In fact the Critical Power and W Prime philosophy is used in many endurance sports. I agree, the power training will come with great risk. One solution could be power training on larger open handed holds. This could reduce the risk of tendon injuries. Additionally, be very careful to be well fueled, rested etc when doing theses hard sessions. That could help lower the risk. It'll be interesting to see how you tackle it. Great video.
9B !!!! Yes !!!! Cant wait to watch
Awesomely informative video! Not super surprised your fingers are stronger than you give them credit for, now get on Bosi's new 9A+ at Dumby!
great video Dave
Excellent stuff! I wonder if the careful movements and longer time on holds in trad climbing has shaped your profile to be what we saw here. Good luck on the next 9b 😁
Amazing, can't wait to see the 9a+ send in a couple of years ;)
Excellent stuff. Well explained.
Have been a student of W’ and CF for the last couple of years as they provide great insight to the fitness related aspects of climbing and provide balance to the focus on all out strength.
Sort of expected you to score high on CF because it would be a pre requisite for high level trad I would have thought.
With regard to a keto diet I think one of the questions is does it impact the level glycogen stores. If it does then your ability to maintain say 95% of CF for an extended period of time could be less than someone with higher glycogen stores. Imagine hangboarding just below your CF level for an hour. Fun.
Amazing video.
Hope to see you work and send 9a+!
My personal takeaway from this is the idea of rapidly engaging full finger strength vs. slowly engaging it. I didn't know it was a thing, but it makes sense. I went to do a move yesterday that I only needed to hold for a second (there was no reason to hang out), but the move was a very hard one, thus rapid strength. Thanks for sharing.
Great video! The testing is interesting but your own evaluation of what the results mean and how you might change up your training in light of them is even better. Rare to get an insight into the nuts and bolts of how a top-level climber thinks about this stuff.
edit: also, as a fellow 40-something climber (though way way below Dave's level) I would be extremely keen to see him smashing a 9a+ :)
I found the bit about improving your power pretty insightful. Anecdotally, it feels like there is a minimum finger strength required for most boulders at a given grade but having an equivalent amount of power/explosiveness mostly just let’s you do a bigger variety at that grade.
Eg. a V14 boulder with big one arm explosive movements is going to be available to a much smaller subset of V14 climbers than one comprised of hard static movements even though both take a similar level of peak force.
Kind of like how elite men/women can basically climb the same grades but it seems to be only a small subset of the problems are accessible to women because of this power aspect.
As a climber turned cyclist I can’t help but think there would be such a huge benefit from compiling training philosophies from different disciplines
Well done Dave! I was not really surprised by the results, although I'm left wondering what the outcome of the other upper body strength exercises was? It was teased at the beginning but the video never came back to it... Great discussion with Ollie and also the afterthoughts. I guess a trip to Malham is due? ;-)
I would love a video about the three finger drag, +1 for that
Half way through, but it seems like Dave is sandbagging himself, and could climb harder grades than even he realizes. Epic dad strength.
I don't know if you explained this already in another video, but why is it that you are so intimidated by trying the next grade?
Love your contents!
Cool thoughts. Because you boulder so much, I wonder how you'd fare on the cruxy 9a and above routes on the UK limestone, like Rainshadow. Would be cool to see you push into 9a+ and up! Been following your career for at least 10 years now..
Looks like Dave's back has a creature living inside it trying to escape
well that creature is called muscle🤣😄
A "bag of wildcats"
Great in depth video and very interesting findings! Maybe check out Dr. Tyler Nelson's (C4HP) 'Velocity Pulls' training for RFD. Seems like a very useful, low risk and controllable way of training the fingers RFD, without the heavy impact of for example a campusboard.
Super interesting episode. Would you consider sharing your training regime if you choose to train specifically for improving contact strength. I’m in the bottom end of my fourties’ myself and despite rating quite high on the lattice finger strength test I often struggle with holding a full or half crimp on e.g. the Moon board making me suspect it’s sub par contact strength.
Wicked. Interesting episode
Really interesting!
Now we are all waiting for your first 9a+ video 💯🍀🤣
Very interesting. Thanks for this. As per diet, since I am vegan for ethical reasons due to being against avoidable harm to animals, I did "experiment" with various approaches for plant-based nutrition and I do thrive best on a high-protein plant-based diet. But I am no elite climber, as I am just the normal "ecery day guy" with a standard job and all that. But this was great info, love it. Best regards.
I really think an analysis of the cross-correlation between finger strength and RFD would be interesting. It sounds like there might be a negative correlation between the two for climbers of a specific grade - I wonder what the ideal balance is between the two though.
Hey Dave, you commented on your perception of always feeling that your endurance is one of your weaker aspects. While tangible force metrics are potentially invaluable they also can fail to reveal the complex relationship we have with how we feel about producing them. Is it possible that the boundaries of perception are what will always leave these internal relationships at odds with the metrics?
The quantitative expression and qualitative expression may not be entirely bound to one another.
A lot of the "feelings" we have come from contrast. Is it possible that you enjoy being in a specific energy system more than another and have falsely conflated dislike for one (endurance) as weakness? Or possibly - "weakness" translates roughly to the dislike of not being able to naturally enjoy being in that energy system?
You're an inspirational person and thank you for continually pushing your own limits. Your willingness to share and wholeheartedly tackle your passions is seriously the type of life that enables others to pursue their passions as well.
Thanks a ton - Lafayette
yes! finally!
would love to see you take this test a few times per year to see how your experiments are developing.
Brill Dave. Thank you.
Very interesting. One of the take-homes was you could be getting on something a wee bit harder than 9a. You've previously, rightly, stressed the importance of social factors in climbing performance. Perhaps a disadvantage of Lochaber is the lack of other 9a and up climbers to push you a bit?
So only behind beasts like Megos... You are a beast.
Super geeky physio stuff! Love it! Do you have a link to the paper you mentioned? I tried to find it on their website but couldn't see it. Thanks 👍🏼
Considering it has been about a year since you made this video, it would be cool to see a follow-up on how you adjusted your training with the results of this test and how that has impacted your climbing
Ooo! i do the three finger crimp often, not on purpose either. I have a pinky injury from many years ago that doesnt allow much mobility in it so it tends to just get in the way anyways. (detatched the tendon, its re attached but i have no pulleys)
Go for the 9a+ Dave!!
What I learned: Dave is a beast
It's been scientifically confirmed: Dave is a beast!
Nice video, very interesting.
I recognised a number of the walls/routes you had clips of but wanted to ask about the one at 38:20 Is that in that on Lewis/Harris? What route is it? It looks like Masa belaying?
Looks like a great wall with loads of potential.
Since the assessment was conducted in February, can we expect a video soon showing the effects of a focused explosive strength intervention and Dave Macs first 9b?!?! ; p
Great video! Could you explain how Rate of Force translates onto the climbing experience?
Great video! Is it still winter in the south of England? :D
Fascinating.
I wonder if they could combine their data with muscle biopsies to see how it correlates with muscle fibre type mix... And then see how much and whether training can overcome your intrinsic muscle make up...
Not a small research project that 😅
its just a momentarily picture what we get when we test like this.
if i would have this great fingerstrenght my focus would be on having for example :super explosive legs or extreme core/ lower back muscles....imagine his fingerstrenght paired with extrem bodytension (gymnastics level)
Dave, I think maybe part of why you don't feel like you have good endurance is that maybe endurance just *feels bad* (bad, as in, uncomfortable, not in some objectively bad sense).
One of the problems I ran into when I started training power was that it feels fine even when it's completely wiped. I'd think I had rested enough and try the next set, and I would totally fail. The solution for me was timing my rests, and actually increasing the amount of rest time (10 minutes!) between power. It feels a bit absurd to hang literally a total of 60 seconds per hand in an hour, but that seems to get me quality sets with more consistent numbers, and my boulder grades have reflected the results in the past winter.
Endurance is the opposite: it feels bad *well* before I am actually at my limit. With repeaters, I'll often be convinced at rep 3/10 that I'm going to fail in one or two more reps... and then go on to finish the set. In fact, I'm not even convinced I've ever gone to physical failure on repeaters--I think my mind gives out before my hands. Even though I'm saying to myself: "No! It's a lie! You can do more!" I just stop trying at some point. With strength I've trained to the point where I feel my hands slowly get pried open by the resistance, but I don't think I've ever been mentally able to push myself to that point with endurance.
One of the most helpful things I've ever heard about climbing was actually from you: you said somewhere on this channel that how you feel going into a session of climbing doesn't actually seem to be a good indicator of how you'll perform. That's true in my experience for climbing, but it's also true in my experience for training, and not just going in but throughout the process: when I look at the numbers they often differ wildly from how I felt.
I'm sure you know all this... you're much more experienced than I!
Beast mode
Hey Dave - as someone over 40 with a history of finger issues - is it really a good idea to train fast loading like campus if you have such good strength in other areas? I have a similar history btw.
I’m thinking more the long game here - sure it might help a current project but can you really expect to sustain this into 50s and longer?
One would think you just need to pick and choose projects a bit more carefully to avoid high Rate of Force moves.
Ben Moon climbed a 9a @ 50 years of age. There has been for many decades a concept of biological age in contrast to chronological age in exercise physiology. The training age of a given athlete relates to this as well. Also in case you haven't heard the expression: "...it's the life in your years, not the years in your life..."
@climbermacleod Hi Dave, seems like you have great potential for much more 💪 that is always a motivation. What are your thoughts on Tyler Nelson's velocity pulls? It might potentially be the safer way for RFD training.
Making me smile that the UA-cam ad. that I had to watch before the video was for chocolate! 😂
Get on that 9a+ it's a must!
Great video!! Did you do any flexibility testing with them? I know they have a lot of information about flexibility and in your 9 out of 10 climbers book I think you mention flexibility is not that important.
9a+ Dave! How about Bosi’s new route at Dumby?
🖤
I wonder if you could improve contact strength well below the levels of risk of injury. An injury happens when you exceed the force that a pully can take regardless of the time applied to it.
This often happens when your foot slips or you drop onto a hold with a greater force.
Since you finger strength is higher than you contact strength is there a way to limit forces to a level between the two? For example train contact strength with a load that breaks away when you apply a force that is greater than intended. Maybe something like a grip attached to a pulley with a counter weigth?
Just thinking out loud.
Dave, in the beginning of the video you mentioned that what you'd want to see in the results is that everything is as it should be (I've forgot your exact wording here), i.e., that you're doing everything right. Was that just something you said in moment, without preparation, or did it come from a place of, e.g., "I have trained so hard, and with so much consideration, for so long that if anything is lacking it likely can't be worked on"?
I would personally hope for the exact opposite, i.e., I would hope to see that I have at least one glaring weakness, which can be worked on.
That Atlas back tho!!
Great video, are you keen to try Free At Last? Would be awesome to see you on it.
I agree, especially with its very bouldery crux, improving RFD seems obvious and exciting!
It'd be fantastic to see him on it. Perhaps even collaborating with Will Bosi (who does a lot with Lattice) - at Dumby and elsewhere.
I did the hand movements in 2014, but possibly it is a hard one for the grade. I might go for another look.
Hey Dave, I know it’s not the topic but I was wondering if you could tell me the dimensions of the steep wall in your home gym. How wide and long is that bad boy?
Have you looked into velocity pulls to train rate of force development?
regarding the rate-of-force-development discussion, it might be more interesting to correct that rate for body weight. So, time to 100% bodyweight rather than time to max force.
I wonder how much finger length plays a part in comfort/strength of 3 finger drag. From what I can tell just in a few freeze frames, Dave's 2-4 fingers are pretty similar in length with his index possibly being longer than his 4th finger? My index finger is significantly shorter than my 3rd and 4th fingers and I've never felt comfortable on a 3 finger drag, because of the length difference its hard to get the index involved so that the grip trends toward a 2 finger drag of the 3rd and 4th with the 4th experiencing the majority of the strain which I know is not uncommon.
How would you try to improve your RFD? (edit: aaaah, should have watched the video all the way to the end ;) )
Could you replace campus board training with overcoming isometrics? Tyler Nelson I know is a big proponent and has written some articles.
Maybe 2023 will bring a space heater to Lattice HQ 😁