@@diggerlenny4836 there may be a slight difference in velocity, but mostly the difference is in price. Buffalo Bore has historically been more expensive than Underwood.
@@Followme556 looks like they have the penetration U need if a bear is charging at you and she's only 30 feet away. Not a good time to be unsure in any way🫣
For EDC? You must live in wild country like me. I can't imagine carrying either of these loads in an urban environment. WAY too much overpenetration. But if a Black Bear was stalking me, these would give me a smug smile when I turned to confront him. Of course, my real nightmare out there is a criptid I swear I've heard walking through the woods late and night, but that's another story entirely...
I shot those 38's out of a Taurus 605 (twice as heavy) and it still was not pleasant --- they are some powerful rounds for sure ---- I think of them as 357magnum shorts 😁
ROFL! Because I'm an idiot. I had to change my work password (every couple months) and decided that would be an easy one to remember. But then I decided I better make sure (so I wrote it on the back of my hand). And then I did this shoot without thinking about it until I got home to edit.
There must be some things I have yet to learn about true +p ammo. For instance This ammo is called +p, +p is supposedly designed for shorter barrels, but here you struggle to get standard pressure velocities. i have some winchester 115 gr flat tip active duty 9mm. It claims a muzzle velocity of 1320 fps at the muzzle but no where on the box does it state that it is +p. I assume the test barrel is 5 inches which means I'm probably getting about 1250 fps in the 4 inch barrel g3. I dont have access to ballistic gel or many other mediums but I suspect the penetration can be more attributed to the flat tip bullet then the added power behind it
There is a site called BBTI (Ballistics By the Inch) that has data on dozens of loads in dozens of calibers from 2" to 18". It's no longer active now, but it's archived. There are enough loads that will be similar enough to most other loads to extrapolate a reasonable velocity for any barrel length. Using that site, and the known velocity of of these rounds, you should be able to extrapolate a figure for anything.
@@philp411 You have to estimate the data based on what he chrono'd here, and what's on BBTI. I'll give you an example: Discrete average 1050fps from a 3" pistol with the Underwood 147gr+P If we go on the BBTI site, we see that from a 3" barrel the listed Federal 147grain load achieves 902fps, or 150fps less. So if we now look at the 16" listing for Federal 147, we get 1096. Add another 150 for the Underwood +P load, then round off, and we get 1250fps. This is certainly not a perfect way to estimate velocity, but it's certainly good enough for government work. What is really impressive about the underwood load is that he is getting darn near as much velocity from the 3" barrel as the Federal load gets from a 16". If you are interested in a loading for a 9mm PCC, I HIGHLY recommend Underwood 124gr+P+ speer gold dot. That round exceeds 1500fps from a 16" carbine, with over 600fpe of energy, and gets about 14-16" penetration. Expansion is in the vicinity of 90 caliber. That is as good as it gets from a 9mm PCC, unless you're talking trail defense vs big angry bears- in which case this underwood load Discrete tested is about perfect. if you appreciate this breakdown/analysis, please subscribe to my channel. ;) Also, thanks to Discrete for doing this test!
It's PSI vs Kinetic energy. The more pointed a bullet is, the more pounds per square inch it will have upon impact per equivalent bullet weight. If a high PSI bullet design is also "hard" to limit deformation it will penetrate further by comparison to the low PSI design. Flat nose bullets keep to their intended path upon impact better that pointed bullets. Flat nose bullets are also a compromise between the extreme penetrating qualities of pointed bullets, and the straight penetrating qualities of flat nose bullets that offer some kinetic energy dump upon impact. Almost 70% of gunfights result in bullets striking an attackers arm before hitting the body. Flat nose bullets perform better through bone.
It's a size that most will carry, and you have to take into account that the 9mm is inserted into the chamber of its 3" barrel, but the 38 special is NOT inserted into it's 2" barrel.
Awesome ballistic test! Yes, the shorter case 38 Special has lesser penetration. That Underwood 147 grain +P Hardcast is powerful stuff good for Wilderness carry for defense against Black Bear etc. Alaskan Guide Phil Shoemaker used Buffalo Bore's version the,(Outdoorsman) to stop a charging Grizzly Bear.
It really depends what your use case is. There's no one sized fits all. But my "favorites"... 380: Ruger LCP Max: 13 shots, 15oz loaded, 2.8" barrel. Underwood 90gr+P XTP 38 special: Colt detective: holds six shots instead of standard five, 2" barrel, 158gr+P "FBI" LHP 357 magnum: Ruger SP101: heavy as a boat anchor but that helps with recoil, 5rds, 3" barrel, "Big three" 125gr SJHP 9mm: HK P7: same length as most 3.5" bbl guns, but has a 4.1" barrel. 9rds: Underwood 9mm+P+ 124gr Gold dot 5.7mm: Ruger 57, up to 26rds with +5 baseplates, Elite Ammunition T6B, 2300fps, 360fpe energy, penetrates 100 layers kevlar 45: 4.25" lightweight commander: With CMC mag +2 mag, 11rds, Remington 185gr+P JHP Those are the only calibers I've ever carried. My current carry gun is the Ruger LCP Max. It is, to me, the ultimate CCW gun ever devised.
Mine has been my Taurus 856 UL, loaded with Hornady 110 gr Critical Defense rounds. Has been with me for most of the time that it's now been my everything gun.
It would have penetrated even further had you placed the target elements against one another like you did in the first test. With that loose alignment you allowed inertial interaction of the individual elements that you did not have in the first "test". In short, you messed it up, in an absolute sense.
So if a .38 is all you have carry this ammo in bear country. I carry 10mm and .40 but that.38 surprised me. I also carry a 9mm at times with these and extreme penatrators we only have black bear so I think either of these would do for that
While that's some good stuff, I like my hide better than to go into Griz country with anything under a .357 magnum with some pretty stiff loads. Those would probably work for black bears, but I just wouldn't want to try it with anything bigger. Some guys like the 10mm, but truthfully, the only thing that puts that above the .357 is the magazine capacity, it's always better to be able to toss 15 or 16 than 6. That said, I would feel much better having a .44 mag, a .454 Casull, or even a .460 Smith in grizzly country, because if you can handle them, 6 of either of those is more likely to handle the problem than all 16 of the 10mm.
It looks like the bullet geometry made the difference in penetration. Did you notice any recoil? My credit card now hates you. I found a couple places with Underwood Item 734 in stock. Also check my latest community posting.
Buy directly off the underwood site. Their prices are better than anyone else's. Lucky gunner especially marks the price of underwood up through the roof. Underwood also has a military discount if you buy through their site.
Probably. In my experience the 38s will gain more from a longer barrel than the 9mm will because of the case capacity. There's typically more powder to burn in a 38 shell. But this isn't always the case as a lot of big brand ammo makers "pud load" their 38 special offerings so the felt recoil is more manageable. This gives people the impression that 9mm is more powerful, but I've found that not to be the case for Buffalo Bore or Underwood. Still, 38 special is handicapped by the lower pressure limits.
I used to carry the Buffalo Bore version of this 9mm+P ammo when I was hiking in the mountains of PA (black bear and elk country). Very stout stuff.
Was just gonna ask would these be good for bear country. What's the difference with the buffalo bore vs these rounds?
@@diggerlenny4836 there may be a slight difference in velocity, but mostly the difference is in price. Buffalo Bore has historically been more expensive than Underwood.
@@Followme556 looks like they have the penetration U need if a bear is charging at you and she's only 30 feet away. Not a good time to be unsure in any way🫣
Very good, thank you. I think that the 9mm 147gr +P is a good every day carry round.
For EDC? You must live in wild country like me. I can't imagine carrying either of these loads in an urban environment. WAY too much overpenetration. But if a Black Bear was stalking me, these would give me a smug smile when I turned to confront him. Of course, my real nightmare out there is a criptid I swear I've heard walking through the woods late and night, but that's another story entirely...
@@GeographyCzar Thank you for responding.
Interesting test. Thanks for running a careful test
I love these penetration tests!! Great job 👏
I shot those 38's out of a Taurus 605 (twice as heavy) and it still was not pleasant --- they are some powerful rounds for sure ---- I think of them as 357magnum shorts 😁
Gr8 test never ever seen 1like this thanks for the Info n ur time
Another great test! A good match up of caliber and bullet weights with interesting results. Why is Taurus GX4 written on your hand?
ROFL! Because I'm an idiot. I had to change my work password (every couple months) and decided that would be an easy one to remember. But then I decided I better make sure (so I wrote it on the back of my hand). And then I did this shoot without thinking about it until I got home to edit.
@@GeographyCzar Ha ha Ha. Sounds like something I might do
There must be some things I have yet to learn about true +p ammo. For instance This ammo is called +p, +p is supposedly designed for shorter barrels, but here you struggle to get standard pressure velocities. i have some winchester 115 gr flat tip active duty 9mm. It claims a muzzle velocity of 1320 fps at the muzzle but no where on the box does it state that it is +p. I assume the test barrel is 5 inches which means I'm probably getting about 1250 fps in the 4 inch barrel g3. I dont have access to ballistic gel or many other mediums but I suspect the penetration can be more attributed to the flat tip bullet then the added power behind it
Some hot rounds 👍👍
I love snubby tests. That said, I wonder what those would do from carbines.
There is a site called BBTI (Ballistics By the Inch) that has data on dozens of loads in dozens of calibers from 2" to 18". It's no longer active now, but it's archived. There are enough loads that will be similar enough to most other loads to extrapolate a reasonable velocity for any barrel length.
Using that site, and the known velocity of of these rounds, you should be able to extrapolate a figure for anything.
@@Valorius I love Ballistics By the Inch! My brother introduced me to it years ago.
@@GeographyCzar It is a tremendous resource. You know....you could have yourself a heck of a niche if you finished his work... ;)
@@Valorius I’ve checked it many times. They don’t have these specific loads.
@@philp411 You have to estimate the data based on what he chrono'd here, and what's on BBTI. I'll give you an example:
Discrete average 1050fps from a 3" pistol with the Underwood 147gr+P
If we go on the BBTI site, we see that from a 3" barrel the listed Federal 147grain load achieves 902fps, or 150fps less.
So if we now look at the 16" listing for Federal 147, we get 1096. Add another 150 for the Underwood +P load, then round off, and we get 1250fps.
This is certainly not a perfect way to estimate velocity, but it's certainly good enough for government work.
What is really impressive about the underwood load is that he is getting darn near as much velocity from the 3" barrel as the Federal load gets from a 16".
If you are interested in a loading for a 9mm PCC, I HIGHLY recommend Underwood 124gr+P+ speer gold dot. That round exceeds 1500fps from a 16" carbine, with over 600fpe of energy, and gets about 14-16" penetration. Expansion is in the vicinity of 90 caliber. That is as good as it gets from a 9mm PCC, unless you're talking trail defense vs big angry bears- in which case this underwood load Discrete tested is about perfect.
if you appreciate this breakdown/analysis, please subscribe to my channel. ;)
Also, thanks to Discrete for doing this test!
Great review! Liked and subscribed!
It's PSI vs Kinetic energy. The more pointed a bullet is, the more pounds per square inch it will have upon impact per equivalent bullet weight. If a high PSI bullet design is also "hard" to limit deformation it will penetrate further by comparison to the low PSI design. Flat nose bullets keep to their intended path upon impact better that pointed bullets. Flat nose bullets are also a compromise between the extreme penetrating qualities of pointed bullets, and the straight penetrating qualities of flat nose bullets that offer some kinetic energy dump upon impact. Almost 70% of gunfights result in bullets striking an attackers arm before hitting the body. Flat nose bullets perform better through bone.
Big 9mm fan but that .38 special didn’t get a fair shake with that short ass barrel …
It's a size that most will carry, and you have to take into account that the 9mm is inserted into the chamber of its 3" barrel, but the 38 special is NOT inserted into it's 2" barrel.
Awesome ballistic test! Yes, the shorter case 38 Special has lesser penetration. That Underwood 147 grain +P Hardcast is powerful stuff good for Wilderness carry for defense against Black Bear etc. Alaskan Guide Phil Shoemaker used Buffalo Bore's version the,(Outdoorsman) to stop a charging Grizzly Bear.
Remember it wasn’t charging him , it was more or less broadside going after his clients… still impressive
@@guaporeturns9472
The bear was probably laughing so hard he had to stop to catch his breath.
@@marktwain2053 It definitely stopped … FOREVER!!! 😂😂😂😂
I always want to ask the board what is the there fav discreet carry size 9mm, 38, etc. and the pistol. Thanks
It really depends what your use case is. There's no one sized fits all.
But my "favorites"...
380: Ruger LCP Max: 13 shots, 15oz loaded, 2.8" barrel. Underwood 90gr+P XTP
38 special: Colt detective: holds six shots instead of standard five, 2" barrel, 158gr+P "FBI" LHP
357 magnum: Ruger SP101: heavy as a boat anchor but that helps with recoil, 5rds, 3" barrel, "Big three" 125gr SJHP
9mm: HK P7: same length as most 3.5" bbl guns, but has a 4.1" barrel. 9rds: Underwood 9mm+P+ 124gr Gold dot
5.7mm: Ruger 57, up to 26rds with +5 baseplates, Elite Ammunition T6B, 2300fps, 360fpe energy, penetrates 100 layers kevlar
45: 4.25" lightweight commander: With CMC mag +2 mag, 11rds, Remington 185gr+P JHP
Those are the only calibers I've ever carried. My current carry gun is the Ruger LCP Max. It is, to me, the ultimate CCW gun ever devised.
Mine has been my Taurus 856 UL, loaded with Hornady 110 gr Critical Defense rounds. Has been with me for most of the time that it's now been my everything gun.
It would have penetrated even further had you placed the target elements against one another like you did in the first test. With that loose alignment you allowed inertial interaction of the individual elements that you did not have in the first "test". In short, you messed it up, in an absolute sense.
So if a .38 is all you have carry this ammo in bear country. I carry 10mm and .40 but that.38 surprised me. I also carry a 9mm at times with these and extreme penatrators we only have black bear so I think either of these would do for that
Exactly.
While that's some good stuff, I like my hide better than to go into Griz country with anything under a .357 magnum with some pretty stiff loads.
Those would probably work for black bears, but I just wouldn't want to try it with anything bigger.
Some guys like the 10mm, but truthfully, the only thing that puts that above the .357 is the magazine capacity, it's always better to be able to toss 15 or 16 than 6.
That said, I would feel much better having a .44 mag, a .454 Casull, or even a .460 Smith in grizzly country, because if you can handle them, 6 of either of those is more likely to handle the problem than all 16 of the 10mm.
True. Happily, we don't have any grizzlies here in Minnesota.
It looks like the bullet geometry made the difference in penetration. Did you notice any recoil? My credit card now hates you. I found a couple places with Underwood Item 734 in stock. Also check my latest community posting.
Buy directly off the underwood site. Their prices are better than anyone else's. Lucky gunner especially marks the price of underwood up through the roof. Underwood also has a military discount if you buy through their site.
Did I notice any recoil - LOL, Fudmottin! You know it! H O L E E !
@@GeographyCzar So a bit of a kick then?
@@Valorius I've bought direct before. Some sellers use Underwood's prices. Others do mark up.
@@Fudmottin lol, about like a kiss from a runaway freight train - but nothing compared to what you put up with !
will you please test this ammo with a denim barrier out of a 3.5 inch barrel? Thanks. Winchester Ranger SXT 9mm 147gr JHP MODEL Number RA9SXTC
Any idea what Velocities this gets out of a 16 inch carbine barrel?, I have a suppressed PC carbine, and I'm just wondering if it gains much.
Probably. In my experience the 38s will gain more from a longer barrel than the 9mm will because of the case capacity. There's typically more powder to burn in a 38 shell. But this isn't always the case as a lot of big brand ammo makers "pud load" their 38 special offerings so the felt recoil is more manageable. This gives people the impression that 9mm is more powerful, but I've found that not to be the case for Buffalo Bore or Underwood. Still, 38 special is handicapped by the lower pressure limits.
Love my gx4
Sam did you change the name of your channel??
Are u referring to gunsam?
@@andywilson8698 yes
@@johnochicago8457 well then the answer to your original question is 100% yes ,this is 100% gunsam's new channel 😉..... 100% for sure !!!
@@andywilson8698 Thank you Andy!
@@johnochicago8457 it's really not this some other guy ,I hope u got I was being sarcastic
Uno! +P
But you forgot to like the video
What is "film"? 🤣