@Jason Lopez Yes but that also goes to the morality of a protector. Jordan Peterson says something I really like. We are virtuous because we are dangerous but we have control over it. Bad guys aren't virtuous they are just evil they don't care who they hurt. We as protectors care about innocence and the lives of others and we protect those things children especially. Protectors will do anything they can to mitigate the possibility of injury to anything innocent we are supposed to protect. Hence your ammo choices we make these choices because not only do they work better they help up protect innocents that are not involved. But that is the fundamental difference we are dangerous but good and virtuous. They are evil.
Be careful with USCCA, the company that provides the insurance money for them will judge your case before it gets to trial and basically determine if you are guilty or not before defending you. If they believe your case doesn't meet their requirements for lawful self defense, they may refuse to defend you. Kayla Giles case is an example of this.
People should read the fine print. She killed her estrange husband in front of their 3 kids. She was an abuser that bragged about hitting him in texts to her friends. She shouldn't have owned a gun in the first place. Don't they usually take guns away from guys, accused/convicted of domestic abuse?
Your criteria are very different from mine. 1-does my pistol like the ammo? i.e. does the gun function properly 2-is the ammo accurate. 3-Is the velocity and wt enough to penetrate my foe coming in last 4-what kind of expansion FMJ pistol rounds have been killing people since the 1890's as in the 7.63x25 C96 mauser and with no expansion.
Your pistol should shoot all of the ammo. Steel is fine for training (no longer much cheaper) though the point still stands that it's a good benchmark for reliability. If it shoots steel then It's a reliable firearm.
I bought a handgun from a guy once, and he threw in a box of 9mm defensive rounds. They were the G2 RIP. I looked at him and said, "I'll never use those." He said, "Me neither." We got a chuckle out of it, and I took them. They've been sitting in a drawer ever since. Maybe one day I'll do some watermelon carving with them.
@@lindboknifeandtool personally, I'm not concerned with my choice of ammo in regards to the judicial system. I think you could make a compelling argument to how poorly they perform amidst a hypothetical aggravated assault trial which would rather be "murder" using more effective ammunition, lol.
Some proof of what he's saying would be nice. Keep talking numbers but a spreadsheet, footage, or some photos of the gel would be a lot more useful than "friendly man talks in garage".
Friendly man that talks in the shop covers that in a different video. I have been shooting gel for over a decade never wanted to do youtube and never thought I would. Real ordinance gel is not clear so kinda boring to watch bullets hit it. I do have spreadsheets and pictures I honestly didn't think folks would be interested since it's hard to digest if that's not your world. I might have to put it up on the descriptions so folks can download it if they want to
From firsthand experience when a friend had a negligent discharge (no, we are still not on speaking terms) with the Sig Sauer jacketed hollopoint defense ammo. All I can say, is they did exactly what was intended. It fully expanded to about twice the width of the 9mm bullet before firing. Its been 10 years or so, and i still dont walk correctly. So... at least anecdotally, i personally know what its like to be hit with that defense anmo. And from that point forward, thats all i use for defense. I guess I'm in that small camp of people who actually know firsthand what your carry ammo feels like on the receiving end. Thats not a brag, but i can vouch. One hit and i was down immediately.
Oh, and also the jacket did not separate from the lead. I still have it to this day, its wider than a .45 fmj. I would send you a picture of both the wound Channel measured in the er, and the expanded bullet, but can't share that on UA-cam
I use Sig Sauer for my Glock 43x most 9 and Glock 23 gen 3 40 S&W Sig Sauer elite 165 grain for the 40 and 9 and Sig NATO m17 124 grain +p for the 9mm wow that must have been some experience the sig elite rounds are quite nasty
@@digitalphoenix72 It's actually easy to share it on YT. Just screen record whatever pictures you have and upload them and share the link or tell us to dig through your videos. I'd be very interested in that if you ever do want to post it. And thank you for sharing your experience. (Also, super sorry about your bullet wound. That's gotta suck so much.)
To me it sounds like you have completely lost your mind. Most of the rounds you rag on do not over penetrate and they do expand or fragment putting all their energy in to the perpetrator that is threat to your life! All the energy into the perpetrator is stopping the perpetrator, stopping the attack and saving your life, family's life, or some neighbor's life. The problem is very few rounds have truly effective stopping power in a conceal carry that has sufficient ammunition capacity for multiple attackers which is becoming more common. To excacerbate the problem, those that were not raised with firearms tend to shy away from guns and ammo that has stopping power to stop someone on drugs. We all know the Colt 1911 with the 45 ACP round was specifical designed to put drugged up natives charging with swords back into the philippine jungle be knocking them back into the jungle. The 38 service revolver was allowing native to charge out of the jungle to hack apart soldiers, even after the natives had more than 6 rounds in their body. The 45 ACP has stopping power as do more powerful rounds like 357mag and 44mag, but very few people enjoy shooting large caliber guns. Most defensive carriers consider high power calibers unpleasant to shoot and you aren't going to find good conceal carry guns in larger calibers with sufficient round capacity for multiple attackers. There is no golding bullet that is ideal for all situations. If someone is trying to run you over with a car you may need to penetrate the windshield. A round that will penetrate a windshield is a lot different than a round to punch through a t-shirt. This desparity in differences and the need to be prepared for any situation leads to many chosing to stagger load their magazine with 2-3 different type rounds, not calibers. Col Jeff Cooper who is largely responsible for modern gun safety training rightfully concluded from data that the 9mmx19mm parabellum was a "woefully under powered round that was not sufficient for self defense," but most of his data came from military style FMJ ball rounds. The combination of many people not liking to shoot larger caliber guns and the 9mm being woefully under ppwered for self defense has empowered an industry for over 50yrs at maximizing the stopping power of smaller caliber amunition like 9mm. You would not be able to rag on one round as bad for self defense if there was not a real or percieved need for that performance in the ammunition. Law enforcement has forever sought a perfect balance of caliber and round style and they still haven't found the holy grail because it doesn't exist! Interestingly, law enforcement buys "over powered" ammunition. Standard pressure SAAMI in some areas is the only ammunition available to the citizenery. The high pressure P+ and P++ is for law enforcement only in some jurisdictions. Law enforcement is not involved at the time a crime is committed over 98% of the time. It is law abiding citizenery and known felons that kill most felons. Prof Gary Kleck pointed to studies that indicated 80%-85% of gun homicides were felon killing felon varying upon the definition of known felon based upon differences in number of arrests and convictions. Those numbers have changed some over the past 40yrs but the general picture is still true. It is citizenery that conceal carry that need highly effective unicorn rounds for that magic 3 seconds that most gun fights or gun homicides occur in. The fact that the 9mm, 40cal, 10mm (mid/small caliber) with best style ammo hasn't been solved satisfactorally for governments or citizens hasn't been solved for over 50yrs speaks to the depth of the problem.
and yet the entire protocol by which we test rounds is about performance through intermediate barriers. That's old think sorry to say everything now is tougher and striving to hit barrier testing
Yeah, for sho, Paul Harrell is one of my top gun tube guys to watch. Mainly because of what other people describe as his "from the dawn of time explinations", personally I like the well articulated breakdowns to the minutely detail instead of just a couple sentences then moving on. Then again, I'm one that likes long form discussion podcasts that get Hella deep into a given subject.
same BS goes for the Civil Defense: to quote Paul's video: "civil defense ammunition did a lot of damage to our ribs on the front of the target just annihilated our grapefruit lung " And saying a 28 grain base only weighs 4 grains??? "c'mon man"
The hst 124 gr +p from barrels at 3.75 and longer are the best performers in my opinion and have had the closest to picture performance through armadillos, and even in pigs
@@unclefreedom213 you said it a bunch too i was honestly wondering if there was a new company out 😂 thanks for this it’s priceless man i have hydra shocks and i just emptied the mags out set aside for range use only. I appreciate your valuable opinion testing and feedback. ❤the 2A community y’all are the best
We’ve been with USAA for 27-Years - yep, I’m OLD [Army service: 1989-95] - and they GREAT!! Great Video, too. Just found you & I’ll be here regularly🇺🇸
Careful with USCCA. Read the fine print. If convicted, you may be responsible for all or partial court costs and attorney fees. Explore all the options out there before you make a decision. Your life may depend on it.
OLD Silver Tip was different then new stuff. I used to buy the bullets for reloading. 175 g in 10mm and 145 in 357. I have taken multiple deer and hogs with them and RARELY recover a bullet. The Golden Sabre +P 45 has taken two deer for me too. BOTH BANG FLOPS THRU&THRU. NO bullet recovered! Both inside 35-40 yards. Hydra Shok is anotger one thats changed theu the years. When Federal bought technology it was a good bullet. I have also taken deer abd hogs with 45acp, 41 Mag and 357 Mag. NO BULLETS recovered. All left large holes and game quickly recovered. Good video!
Oh yeah the old stuff was a hunting round made to penetrate the next stuff seems to be an underperforming defensive round. They still make a hunting version but I feel like the defensive stuff has wrecked its reputation
Every hollow point has a manufacturers suggested minimum velocity which must be met if they are to expand as designed. The heavier the bullet and the shorter the barrel the lower the velocity out of the barrel and into the target. My carry gun has a 3.5 inch barrel. Because of this I went from Federal HST 147 grain to Federal HST 124 grain. The 124 grain consistently exceeded the minimal velocity thresholds while the 147 grain was barely at and sometimes below the manufacturers velocity thresh hold. If your life or the life of a loved one is on the line Its always better to have a lighter bullet that consistently expands than a heavier bullet that does not.
..Velocity IS the main parameter WHEN determining the actual validity of (in THIS case) defensive ammo. I WON’T take ONE person’s opinion on VIRTUALLY ANYTHING.
yes! exactly ! But, If they get too fast of FPS many brands expand too soon and then don't penetrate enough. Its a fine line to get both just right tho.
This is the same guy who thinks 9 mm and 5.56 are go to rounds. In relation to 9 mm,since we’re not presenting data, the steel I shoot for pistols barely moves or rings from 9 mm. More like a .22. .45 ACP and 10 mm get a loud ring when hit and the steel blows away. Had he actually been in combat he would know that the majority of this real two way shooters coming back from the deserts and mountains vociferously complained that it took 4-5 HITS ( not trigger pulls) to put an enemy down. My go to is 10 mm and .308. One hit stops. If you guys want to mimic the military, I was in uniform for 18 years. The rifles and ammo they use are from the cheapest bidder. My life is worth more! One last thing to think about is that in modern combat only a very few people are killed by bullets. It is mostly from artillery and bombs! Oh yes. It is USCCA, not USAA which is car and homeowners insurance!
@@robertgoodrich8953 if you think there's any noticable difference between a modern 9mm and a modern .45 in human tissue then you're as big of a joke as the OP of this video. As for 5.56, it was never advertised as a bullet that causes superior wounds relative to other larger calibers. 5.56, however, is much lighter and thus allows troops to carry far more ammunition into combat. It's been well documented that more ammo of a smaller caliber is a better alternative to having far fewer of a more powerful cartridge. Due to fire suppression being so critical during actual combat, it's necessary to bring as much ammunition as possible if you intend on gaining and maintaining fire superiority. Lastly, you said you were "in uniform" for 18 years. Well, plenty of people spent 20 years in military service while never seeing any actual combat. That being said, I don't mean to diminish another veteran's service. So, if you fall into the category I mentioned before, don't take it as a personal attack. I simply mean to say that time in service doesn't make someone a subject matter expert.
I use Speer gold dot and Hornady critical defense. I do have Winchester white box also. I have seen Paul Harrell use it, and it did alright on the meat target. Good video sir.
In 9mm. Standard pressure 124gr HST. Federal 124gr Punch. Remington 124gr +P Bonded Golden Saber. Hornady 124 or 135gr +P Critical Duty. Speer 124gr +P Gold Dot. All trustworthy loads to consider.
Silver tip 9mm is fine. Paul Harrell did a video on it. The bullets had the exact velocity, expansion, and penetration one could expect out of standard pressure 9mm hollow points. There was nothing wrong with them.
@@skystrider3717 I shot a bunch in 10mm auto and while it performed fine, it wasn't a hot as I liked it. Winchester had the Silver Tip loaded down to around 540 fpe and that just won't cut it! I normally carry Underwood 150 gr JHP and these out of my Glock 40 hover around the 800 fpe mark....quite the difference from the marshmallow loading of Winchester.
I shoot Underwood 124 gr+p+. It's 1300 fps, doesn't over penetrate, doesn't spilt cases, and is extremely consistent. The only problem, if you consider it a problem, is over expansion. It dumps energy so fast it doesn't over penetrate. For 17.99 a box its wicked through my sig p320 X legion. It just works and well.
I’d like to see this list for 10mm rounds. Civil defense 60 grain seems like a good choice in 10mm, but I don’t have the experience that you do. I do think “overpenetration” is a nonissue is MOST cases, if not all. So I don’t base my decisions on whether or not the projectile penetrates deeper than 16 inches, and even “under penetration” (in this case 8”) doesn’t bother me too much because I understand what the 12-16” requirements was based on; I’m more concerned about if the ammo is going to do what it’s supposed to do! I don’t want a hollow tip that won’t expand reliably. Nor do I want ammo that has a hard time defeating any and every barrier.
With what you're looking at for criteria I was really impressed shooting the 10mm in critical duty, hst if you can find them, if you want barrier blindness don't go with things like civil defense they don't perform in harder barriers. Gold Dot due to speed are awesome in 10mm as well
Gimmick ammo that is light and super fast lacks mass for momentum and once it hits it might make a nice bloody crater but it won't penetrate well. In 10mm, 180 grain ammo at or past 500 ft-lbs will tend to be a one-shot stop round. If it's 200 grain when you can find it, it will be slower in all likelihood but penetrate better. For instance in 10mm to bring down a deer 200 grains at 1250 fps [=694 ft-lbs] works a lot better than 155 grains at 1500 feet per second [775 ft-lbs] with its lesser penetration. This is why the government bans calibers past .50, because the physical mass of bigger stuff is what really does the material damage, all things being equal.
I personally tested it out of my Glock 20. Shooting 5 rounds at a new level IIIa vest. Every round went through with ease. The only other rounds that made it through out of every pistol caliber available and countless dozens of different brands of ammunition, was the 5.7x28mm 27grain green tip in the red and black box. Out of my pistol I was getting right at 2450-2500 FPS and they were easily getting through. The 10mm 60 grain Civil Defense and 5.7 mentioned above were the only two that got through. The 5.7 with 27 grain FN SS195s got through about 40% of the time. Nothing in 9mm, 40, 45 etc. even got close. All were stopped easily.
Thanks for the info. Most of us out here don’t have the ability to test various types of ammunition and we rely on magazine articles, UA-cam, rumble, etc., for our information on defense ammo. You did a good job of lining out the problems with each round you talked about. This is my first time viewing your channel and will watch others. Well done!
Let’s all be honest that no matter whatever we carry we will never know if it works until we end up in a bad situation. Whatever the case, practice with what you have and you should be fine. Nuff said.
I believe in having the best option possible that said if I miss with my favorite duty round and I get domed by a FMJ I should've practiced more. Handguns put holes in things gotta hit what you're aiming at
So true. Flashlights are the same way. I 0 years ago I carried the 6P from surefire and it was unbelievable 61 lumens of blinding xenon light now I have an easy 1.5k of led goodness in a light half the size and cost
From my understanding, the Golden Saber has a better reputation in 45 ACP. Back when they came out that is what I used in my 45's. These days bullet tech has reached the point where there are better options out there. My personal choices are Cor Bon or Ranger SXT.
Correct, the Golden Sabers performed very well in ballistic gel tests in .45 ACP, but in 9mm it performs like a FMJ. I guess it might just needs a larger opening in the front for it to open up reliably.
I've seen a difference in Golden Sabers if they are bonded or not. I think most boxes for .45 that I've seen are bonded. .40 S&W were a mixed bag. Not sure if they bonded 9mm as much. HSTs and Ranger Ts seem to be among the better options currently.
The WWB in meat and bones 115 grain JHP work great for me. And in meat and bones no critical duty or defense round will expand any way shape or for except the .40 critical defense. It did really well. All target were set up like Paul Harrell targets. Only way I can get and critical duty or defense rounds to open in 9mm and .40 is to go through a water jug 1st. Gimmick rounds, in my opinion. I don’t do gel I do clothing and meat n bones. Hst, and law enforcement golden sabers, and ranger t in .40. Gold dots are fair.
I'd like to know your reasoning behind the Winchester hollow points because all the other tests that I've seen in videos it works and it's consistent and does what it's supposed to do and with all the Winchester negatives almost makes you wonder if you have a thing against Winchester
I have some OLD SilverTip in .380 and 30-30. Obviously for different purposes. Both performed well in my testing - but it appears 2020s SilverTip is a mere shadow of the 1990s version. EDIT: Seeing the "silver" bullets (not cuurs LOL) you mentioned, they are all "shiny". My SilverTips are actually metallic silver (dull) color - I think they are actually silver alloy, but that's too expensive nowadays.
Yeah the new ones are nickle plated and are basically the white box hollow points plated in nickle. I have some old Silvertip in 30-06 if nothing else they were cool looking and those did work for sure.
@Simple Simon : I still have a handful of those in .380ACP. Those are (roughly..) 88 grain HP's with (barely..) a very thin aluminum 'jacket'. Don't expect penetration over 7" in ANYTHING.
@@unclefreedom213 What idiot came up with the idea of nickle plating a bullet? I have some old ones that I bought when I bought my Ruger .45 Colt. They still work, and work well.
In the 2010s I loaded my used Glock 21 gen 4 .45 with Civil Defense loads. I lived in a metro area 🏘. The load seems hot 🔥 but I questioned the specs 🤓. I also had Winchester Ranger T T series 230gr +P.
I've talked to a bunch of old timers that tell me about loading wadcutters backwards. I have a box of 250 148gr HBWC in the reloading room, might be something I need to try. Old tech vs New tech
Man it takes some funny shit to make me laugh, but dammit I cracked up at some of the explanations you threw out there. Just say it like it is . Enjoyed your show & info .
Remington Golden Sabre is kinda misleading. There's been a lot of criticism for the brass jacket separating, so they've made a bonded version that's supposed to NOT separate. Itd be interesting to see testing with that version.
I remember hydro shok from 1990. I liked it for my 357 magnum. But it's old school and sadly I don't own a 357 anymore. I buy federal HST now in 45 calibur for carry ammo.
Just finished this video and agree with all of it. I have personal experience with the 40 SW Federal Hydra Shock. Former LEO and found myself having to dispatch a couple different, very big, dogs. Complete passthrough, plugged up tip with hair and 0 expansion. Keep up the good work. Also anyone who is wooed into buying the niche ammo is a fool, it doesn't work and gives a prosecutor more crap to try and use against you in a self defense case!
Gotta watch them critical defense too. They perform great, but there's been several times I've witnessed them fail to feed , the polymer tip catching on the feed ramp
Hmm...crazy. I haven't had that problem with the .40 s&w critical defense (shot through m&p 40c). Had no problems with the .38 +p critical defense either, but then that wouldn't catch on the feed ramp, as it doesn't have a feed ramp. Rather light round, though.
I use the Defender 147 gr. 9mm hollow points (recommended by my range). Fairly inexpensive, but if the gel block test I've seen (115 gr.), these should perform as needed.
If you handloaded, you'd know that powder choice determines pressure at a given velocity, or velocity at a given pressure. Not intending to be snarky, but there are several powder formulations that will get to 1200 fps in a 4" barrel with a 124 gr bullet and stay within the 9mm's standard pressure spec. No "+P" necessary.
I'm actually quite an accomplished handloader hence the lyman over my shoulder. These are factory loads where i discuss handloads I say with a handload
Hello, I just wanted to reply to your comment, you have no reason to believe me as I'm just some schmuck you do not know but I wanted to try to help you if I can. I never did any gel testing or such but I do have two actual real world uses of fed hydrashock against human predators. Both had between 5 & 6 properly placed strikes using this ammo with the projectile sailing through without stopping the attack. It in fact caused an ammo change department wide due to the miserable performance. Please don't place too much faith into this round, I just want you to survive. Best wishes to you my friend, take care.
The golden saber is definitely an old school JHP. Nothing fancy, and not bonded. It does break apart, but I’d say it’s the least bad offering on this list. I know the video is a year old, but what about checking into the now popular PPU Rangenaster JHP? It’s an affordable JHP you can buy in boxes of 50 for not much more than FMJ.
Golden sober +p bonded are awesome ive done extensive testing bonded Golden Saber+p I got a video of plugging it and it still split in two pieces now when I downed the cloth to 4 layers it was beautiful. Obviously u have never tried golden saber+p bonded. It took 8 pieces of cotton to clogg and still split 4 layers was perfect try it please the plain golden saber sucks I'll give u that
I've shot them once wasn't impressed with barrier performance. Hell I'll try em again I'm okay with admitting I'm wrong if they're solid. I have a few others that have been requested to test as well.
my preferred crry is an old 357 6 shooter. loaded with 180gr jhp. also happens to be my preferred deer round when using pistol to hunt. I get uniform expansion, plenty of stopping power and the bullet generally stays in the target (no over-penetration). when I prefer to conceal carry, it's the tried and true 45 acp, 240gr hornady critical defense. I don't ever want to have to use them in a defensive situation, but if I ever had to, I don't want to use 7 or 8 rounds when 1 will do the job.
Sig elite ammo seems to be pretty hot, even their ball ammo, compared to other manufacturers offerings. Never had a split case, but recoil is noticeably more than other rounds I’ve shot with subcompact pistols.
@@unclefreedom213 The V Crown 38 Super is pretty effective, but a bit on the slow side for a 38 Super, only listed at about 1230 fps. But it is fast enough to ensure the bullets expand well.
I think Sig Knew they needed above 1200FPS to get the old Sierra HP Bullet to expand. That's my theory. It sure wouldn't expand in Sierras own factory loads until they redesigned it a few months ago. Sierra completely re-enginerded their 380/9mm bullets. The large HP holes are .080 thou deeper and the actual bullet sticking out of the case is longer than the old bullet (to make up the weight). Their factory bullet is called Sierra Outdoor Master. Its much much better than their old stuff. Utuber "Tools and Targets" tested the old 9mm/380 and shamed them about how it wouldn't expand a few months ago! (So it over-penetrates) Sierra saw this, and improved it! Its now a really good 11-14" deep in gel, HP self defense round! (I don't know about barrier testing because most of these wont do anything past 4 layers of denim and gel) ua-cam.com/video/lHrO6lso5rY/v-deo.html Hornady Critical DUTY is the ONLY one I know of designed to go thru barriers and achieve 12-14" gel after passing thru denim as well.
You are absolutely right about every single one of these rounds except. Civil defense. I had a self defense situation with this ammo and it absolutely got the job done. The stoping round went through his cellphone and and stop the attack... Great video tho 🔥
@@spencermichaelson1882if you're shooting through barriers in a "self defense situation" your probably going to prison for the rest of your life. That said, a car door/window glass are not exactly significant barriers to contend with vs a cell phone. Short of hitting a car door window mechanism, which will stop most handgun rounds
@@noway6633 if there’s a known gunman outside your bedroom door or wall r u gonna be chill because barriers mean prison time? Lol how about if there’s 3 dudes threatening your life and your car is boxed in ? Barriers are all around us. Also there’s been no cases of overpenetration into victims even with cops, it’s not a big deal , but there have been many cases of bullets not penetrating to vitals
Thr sad reality is even done perfectly in my state you're going to get sued for wrongful death. Even if you're proven good shoot, getting sued afterward by the family is separate and almost certain. It's a fine line we citizens walk to defend ourselves.
I fall into the Paul Harrell way of thinking; folks are over reliant on these gel tests which are missing something pretty important; bone. I like the fact that Paul would do a gel test, in addition to a Meat Test. Damage from bullets hitting bones, causing the bones to protrude into some vital organ should not be underestimated.
The problem is its inconsistent I love Paul and what he did with the meat target. Gel is a comparable medium nothing more but the depths and measurements we look at have proven time and time again in real bodies and autopsy that the standards we look for in real gel relate to stops in threats
You keep using "USAA" when you really mean "USCCA." I'm sure that the people at USAA (who do not sell self-defense insurance) would appreciate not being dragged in to this.
XTP and Gold dot are my defenses rounds, and by Underwood Ammo. I’ve seen tnoutdoors9 tests of both and a few others ballistic gel tests and in my 10mm platform. The gold dot in 10mm, however, isn’t meant to travel that fast and looks like a meteor with jacket separating 😂👍🏽
Tnoutdoors is very underrated the way he mines data is great. What you described with 10mm is something I harp on fast doesn't always meant better after a point
I have only used Federal Hydra-Shock in.45 caliber. With the subsonic speeds it doesn’t over penetrate. Horniday Critical Defense in all other calibers. Working as security / personal protection over pen was a huge concern for liability. Shooting through barriers was highly frowned upon. You often don’t know what is on the other side other than the intended target.
I like that you selected your ammo based on your performance need. That's actually the biggest reason behind the video. Folks get seriously wrapped around the axel doing everything they can. to discredit what I said, all the while missing the part where I discussed my results and where I would pick the round. I applaud you sir.
Even in .45ACP, the 230gr. HydraShoks aren't that great. If you can find the 185gr.+P version, it works SLIGHTLY better. The HydraShoks are an old design, and as soon as I could, they were replaced by the HSTs.
@@SouthernRebel1970 I call BS on that. I saw a video in which someone shot a dead hog broadside with the 230gr hydra shok and it expanded very nicely and penetrated very well. If it expands but it exits, most likely it won't have enough kinetic energy to really do any collateral damage.
@@joelkelly169 If a child were to be strapped behind an attacker, I wouldn’t even risk shooting, just take cover. He (or even she) can just turn around doing things with the child facing me, what should I do now?
My top 3 rounds these days are: #1 Barnes VOR-TX or TAC-XPD 115gr solid copper HP; #2 Federal Hydra-Shok Deep 135gr; #3 Federal HST 124gr. I've seen testing done on all three and all three work in bare gel, clothing, and even barriers that a civilian is likely to have to shoot through. (and frankly, if I have to shoot through barriers like windshields/plywood/steel doors then I'm not really gonna be worried about overpenetration because the HP didn't expand)
I always have carried the same ammo as my local police issues it makes ammo selection not a issue in court just make sure it works with your barrel length
I mean no offense but this is a common myth spread around that ammo type could end you up in jail. It’s just not true even a little bit. Pretty much zero cases have ever resulted in a conviction. Carry what makes the most sense to you. As cops carry a myriad of different rounds kinda negating the point entirely anyway. People need to stop spreading this misinformation if you have some proof of a conviction that’s not some 1 off case I’d love to see it because people can sue over anything they can sue you for having a cool grip and stupid stuff all the time.
You don’t have immunity like the police do? If you shoot through a wall or plywood or drywall or three a person or bounce a bullet off of the sidewalk and kill somebody., no member of the government is going to try to protect you
I cast lead target bullets. Cast lead will harden as it ages. It may test soft the day after it is poured but I've seen a lead bullet have a hardness of 11 the day after casting and that same batch of bullets will test 14-15 two months later. Defense ammo sits in magazines a long time. Maybe the cores are hardening over time. That might be a good test for a video. Test fresh ammo and let the same batch sit for 6 months and maybe more for a year. There are test kits to measure hardness or you can have a lab do the testing.
Full metal jacket did a good job on the enemy's During the wars. Today, you can't be too picky . Anything is better than throwing rocks. All you need is a headshot with any.
Every bullet has a niche, and purpose. Hollow points are velocity-based, and some of the lighter ammo you obviously wouldn't take up north and use during the winter time but for weather like in Florida all distances out of a full size gun they work. And I get it these are this guy's opinions and everybody has opinions including me. But I would suggest watching other UA-camrs, and Paul's videos and do your own research. And I don't carry any of the bullets mentioned on this list, but I do have magazines and guns loaded at home with some of these. The reason I don't carry these is because I'm in my truck a lot, or in areas where there's a lot of barriers so I carry Underwood extreme defender or extreme penetrator. Unless I'm in the woods then I carry cherries, or extreme hunter, that are full power. The caveat to all this is what he's saying can be true depending on what gun and barrelink through using, what caliber, what the weather is and how people are dressed, so do the research and find out what's best for you and you will probably find there are multiple designs for multiple purposes. But good video sir. I'm not knocking you at all. 🤝
Glad I found your channel I subscribed. It's USCCA, not usaa. Golden Sabor usually work better in the +p version. You can keep Hornady critical defense also. Hornady XTP bullets are my personal favorite. They must be driven HOT yet they expand and penatrate deep! I carry a 45 so I DON'T like federal HST either! I give a shit how big they get or how pretty they are! At 30 yards penatration is less than adequate! Federal is always slower than advertised velocities also! My take on everything is carry a 45 convert it to Super, use Buffalo Bore, Double Tap or Underwood ammunition and call it a day...
Hahahah Can't believe I mixed those two up. I'm doing a fundraiser for USAA 50 mile run next month must have still had it on the brain. The issue with sabers is the jacket separation I also love those xtps. I have love for the 45 as well but I will say Critcak duty still ranks way ip there out of 45. Handguns are all just poking holes either way
I don't know what you consider cheap, but at a dollar+ per round, Silvertips ain't cheap. That said, I'm glad you do in-depth testing that I don't see anywhere else. My absolute favorite round was the Federal GuardDog ammo (9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP) which of course Federal no longer makes. Excellent video, looking forward to watching more.
I don’t know who you gave over a dollar a round too for silver tips but they saw you coming . I bought some just for range plinking about a month ago and I got two boxes of 50 rounds for 19.99 a box. That was I think 39 cents a round .
Way back when Winchester Black Talons were pulled off the market they just happened to be what I carried in my Glock 21 .45. I had to find something different because the BTs were going to run out, they were worth a lot because they were forbidden and I didn't want the legal exposure if I had to use my weapon. Went to my LGS and explained my issue to the owner (who BTW i learned was a blithering idiot) and he told me "buy the golden Saber. The guy who designed BTs went to work at remington and it's the exact same bullet except it's gold" Um, okay Cliffy. Ended up going with 185 grain cor-bon until the Hornady critical duty and defense came out and switched to them.
I carry hst, gold dots, and Remington golden saber in .45+p. 185gr at 1100fps and the jacket separation issue doesn’t seem to make much difference. I’ve had consistent results with it.
I don't have a problem with the M17 +P 124 gr ammo. In fact, I found them to be no hotter than the non +P version of the V-Crown 124 -- as in they are about the same muzzle velocity give or take 10 fps which is immaterial.
Good video. I tend to stay away from all the gimmicky exotic ammo that tends to flood the market every year or so, and stick with Federal HST or Gold Dots. Totally not surprised to see the god awful terrible Browning X Point 147 grain 9mm on this list. Before I had even watched this video, that was one of the rounds that immediately came to mind. Was surprised to see Sig's Elite Defense V Crown on this list. I agree it is loaded hot, I was getting right at and sometimes over 1,200 FPS out of a 3.98 inch barrel with the 115 grain variety and not much less out of the 124's. In bare gel, they did expand. I don't recall doing any barrier tests with them at that time so I couldn't comment on that aspect.
Federal HST and Speer Gold Dots are the gold standard imo. Both are much more expensive than most other jhp but for obvious reasons. I bought 1,000 rounds of Sig Sauer Vcrown 115 jhp for $470. Not terrible for the price but are basically range ammo for me.
They are super accurate though the v crowns. Love HST what inwould say though is the Federal punch is pretty damn solid and cheap. That bullet design is pretty stellar
Sierra just redesigned the 380/9mm bullet used in their Sierra Outdoor master and I'm pretty sure it was the same bullet in the Sig V Crown. Its now a much deeper center opening . Its much much better than the old Sierra ammo Utuber "Tools and Targets" tested the old 9mm/380 and shamed Sierra about how it wouldn't expand! (so it overpenetrates) Sierra saw this, and improved it! Its now a really good 11-14" deep in gel, HP self defense round! (I don't know about barrier testing because most of these wont do anything past 4 layers of denim and gel) ua-cam.com/video/lHrO6lso5rY/v-deo.html There is 2 other vids where he tested the old Sierra bullet and 1 other new one where he tests the new bullet in a 8" AR pistol.
I find Winchester white box in 9mm to be excellent. It expands and penetrates quite well, just as well as much more expensive ammo. Also the silver tips I've tested have done quite well. I agree about the Federal Hydroshock, it's a waste of money. You should include "Sierra in 9mm" is terrible stuff. The 185 in 45 acp actually works as advertised though. I do like the V-Crown though.
Sorry to here about the Sig ammo, Iv got about 200 rounds of Vcrown 😢. It doesn’t make everybody’s top 10 but it’s the first time Iv seen it on a worst 10, lol. I’m a big Hornady fan but during the great ammo shortage it became available at a decent price an I grabbed some.
During the ammo issues us when it really took off. It was on the shelf when nothing else was. It's not bad ammo it's just not good for defensive use from every test I've done and honestly most that I've seen. I've also read and been told of it not working on things as small as a raccoon. That said it is accurate
You're absolutely right with most of these rounds when it comes to a 9 mm cartridge. However, if you go up to the better millimeter, and by that I mean 10 mm you might find it some of these these rounds actually function correctly. Since I live in an area where large predators may decide they want to have me for lunch or they might want dogs or my family, the 10 mm is my only option for daily carry. With that said, that RIP Round is a bad idea from the start. The silver tip is an antique no longer made the way it was originally designed.. I might hunt with Winchester ammunition, but I'm not defending myself with that stuff against a two leg predator . Hornady, critical defense, Hornady critical duty are excellent options that have a really high performance rate.. and if you have to go cheap, Remington Green and white box hollow points perform as well or better than most of this fancy garbage. The federal Hydro shock in anything less than 3 to 7 magnum or 10 mm is not going to expand properly.. It just doesn't have the right properties. Overall, I think we agree on most of this stuff that you laid out when speaking about 9 mm defensive ammunition. You just got a new subscriber.
Can you please test the Freedom Munitions X-DEF 124gr +P ? I'm currently carrying these rounds on all my guns because is affordable (cheap) I need to know if I should get rid of it or is okay to carry.
Hornady would agree with you as would most bullet companies. Hell just handgun ammo in general it's definitely a balance of speed, lead density, and jacket core construction.
@@unclefreedom213 Unless you are dealing with a 357, 41 or 44 Mag, 357 Sig, 38 Super, or 10mm, you are pretty much always going to be on the margin of not fast enough to expand reliably.
I can explain the Golden Sabre. Back 30 years ago, Winchester put out the Black Talon. Remington, wanting to capitalize on Winchesters bad press surrounding the Black Talon, tried to copy it and failed miserably. Winchester essentially rebranded the Black Talon to Ranger after they ditched the evil black bullet.
I was a FBI Certified Firearms Instructor for a State Police Agency and a a shooter/Handloader since 1970. Tested LOTS of stuff in dirt/Gel/Water Jugs/Wet Newsprint, yold cars, wood, steel/ you name it. Best we ever came up with was the Federal HST in all calibers. Speer G2 with the clear polymer plug like the Hornady - sucked.
So the current contract tound in 40 and 9mm and highest testing bullet in the protocol the fbi set forth, the Hornady round in critical duty sucked. The second highest performer was almost a wash between HST and Gold Dot. in the 9m and 40 Edit misread thebest we can up with in regards to HST. I agree the G2 is terrible
Those Sig V crowns have setback issues too but there really accurate.. they get pushed back easily when you chamber them.. but I actually like Golden sabers in other calibers like the double tap 10mm 165 grain golden sabers are pretty insane and they still get 14" of penetration but leave a devastating wound channel.. Winchester Ranger T's suck in 9mm it seems but in 40 I actually like them kinda but you can't ever beat gold dots HST's and some budget loads that still work some of the rounds your mentioning might be different with a different caliber but you can pretty much always count on gold dots & HST's
absolutely on the v crowns I have seen that myself. I would disagree on the ranger t in 9mm every ranger t test I've done in +p and in 40 has passed including tests I've been present for done by other ammo manufacturers. The 165 Saber is the same projectiles loaded in 40 as well and while I haven't shot them in 10mm I'm still getting jacket separation in .40 velocity
Gotta watch all rounds for that setback. It will over pressure the gun and possibly create a dangerous come apart. I rotate my ammo out as needed and visual inspect. And a round that's been chambered a few times gets set to the middle of the mag. But visual inspection/comparison of length is the safest method.
Meh, I'm going to keep running my 155gr golden sabers in 40. They're clean(ish), accurate and and don't rupture the case while still delivering on the horsepower.
The only ammo on your list that I own and would carry for EDC is Federal Hyrdo Shock. I have seen it perform well in gel tests. You do provide sound advise on the danger of over-penetration. I would be wary of USCAA insurance because they have a history of denying coverage if the insurance adjuster thinks the case is not worth defending. If you plea bargain to a lesser offense they will demand you repay the legal fees.
Oh it is just terrible. I love ballistics testing and really get to nerd out on it. Hell I've even done a bunch on .308, 30-06, .243, 300wm 6.5 and 6mm creed, working on 7 prc and 300 prc now out to 1k not because we need to know but because dammit I wanna know
@@unclefreedom213 To do ballistics nerding to the max you can get a big block of clay or mud like Kentucky Ballistics did in his 10mm testing, and compare crater volumes (how much grain or water to fill the crater). That way you can get real scientific numbers for comparison, by the numbers, as to does A or B have the best terminal ballistics. It's all about how much mass gets accelerated to the requisite velocity (physics) and blasted away when the bullet hits the target. Ballistic gel is good for what it does, but it is hard to actually measure the temporary cavity, by definition. Clay is best for some comparisons because it freezes the result of the physics in time, then you can make exact numerical comparison according to the displaced volume. You can also scale milliliters of clay cavity displacement to joules of energy input from the propellant, for an efficiency ratio. Then ditto with different bullet weights and shapes given identical propellant charges, to again make efficiency comparisons. By the numbers.
I carry the Ruger LCRx 357 Magnum loaded with Hornady Critical Defense 110 grain 38 Special+P or Remington HTP 110 grain 38 special+P. Do you have any experience with these rounds and of so what did you think? Also you might want to check out Attorneys On Retainer. They are an actually law firm and not insurance based.
I'll debate the Remington Golden Saber rounds. Based on the Lucky Gunner 4 layer denim tests I created an Google sheet that compares all the rounds. The sheet optimized diameter as the largest, penetration at 16" (based on FBI standards of 12-18" but set slightly deeper, also set to avoid overpenetration), and minimally incorporates velocity into the scoring. Golden Saber 147 is 4th on the list for 9mm and 124 +P is 6th. The 147gr actually beats the Federal HST 147gr on the list. Hornady also scored terribly and didnt have enough penetration or expansion for me to continue to consider
Thanks for putting the research in and getting this out there. One thing to add to your list would be hand loaded hollow points. The guys who did my ccw class said it can be turned into a loaded to kill situation and not defense when it comes to court. I'm a fan of carrying critical defense. I've carried Speer gold dot, but only when amo was scarce and Hornaday was impossible to find.
Yeah I've heard that before too but it holds no weight for me. Just like having a defense minded factory the same can be said and even more so You loaded a bullet made fir defense and could easily articulate that you loaded the ammo for consistency and because defensive loads are harder to come by you were being more careful by carrying a round specifically for defense and thereby safer for bystanders because you took the time and care to load a defense only round instead if using fmj. Any decent lawyer would shred the handload argument. But then again some nit free areas in the country are gonna try ti acrew you no matter what
I used carry black talon for duty.. I bought several boxes... but its all too old now! I now carry critical duty and have critical defense in my wife's little. 38. I wonder how well the .38 works! I really wish Winchester would bring back black talon. I hear the pdx is almost the same just not scary looking or sounding!
@Thomas Baker The defender series and the Ranger t are both the black talon bullet just nonlonger black. The rangers you can find in 50 packs for LE sales defenders only come in 20 packs. In .38 I run the +p critical duty it does exactly as intended out of my 2.5 and 3 inch revolver 9 to 13 inches of penetration no issues with heavy clothing protocol. Not a barrier round but also never claims to be for what it is designed for is my choice for the odd days when I wanna run thw wheel guns
BONDED +p golden sabers are one of my preferred hollowpoints that I’ve tested, regular golden sabers I’d stay away from. The bonded 230gr 45acp +p golden sabers stopped for me at 14” with a nice permanent wound cavity and really nice temporary cavity. Sig 230gr v crown stopped at 12” and opens a tiny bit bigger, but left a mediocre permanent wound cavity.
The Golden Saber Bonded are a solid performer and pretty much solves all of vanilla Golden Saber's issues, so much so that I really think Remington needs to just retire the standard Golden Sabers and only produce the bonded
Let me tell you about hst that will prove your point and blow your mind! .40 from a glock 23 went through a wall so two layers of drywall and fiberglass insulation. Then on the other side entered a small walk in closet tearing through all types of clothing fabrics. THEN! Exits through the closet door which was a cheap press board type not hardwood. FINALLY it must have lost some ass or nicked something in that door because it tumbled after exiting the closet door and embedded it self a solid 3.5 ft up and 2 inches deep into the homes block after the exit. I couldn't believe it!
I like the Lehigh defense extreme defenders in 9mm and extreme Penetrators in 380. I'm surprised the prosecution doesn't charge you with premeditation just for carrying a gun.
Thirty-five years in law enforcement. Never got into a lethal force incident, but every year each of us went through about a 50 round box of ammo putting down injured deer from car collisions. Ignoring the revolver years, because we were issued wadcutters back then for deer. Once we went to semis ( Glock 22s ) for the remainder of my career we went through a few different types of duty ammo. I always thought that the ammos effectiveness against deer ( averaged out over multiple animals, because no two animals react the same, obviously ) would be a good indicator of how the ammo would work against people. Of the various brands we were issued over those decades, I found that the Silvertips and a couple different generations of the Hydrashok worked best. Occasionally we'd have to use Federal frangible ammo depending on the location, and that worked well enough for what it was. On the negative side, Hornady Critical Duty was a failure in my mind and would often require multiple rounds to put the deer down. I went to the dog and pony show that the Hornady rep did at the range with the ballistic gel, and shooting the Critical Duty ammo into the gel against everyone's current duty ammo, and yeah the Hornady ammo looked pretty in the gel, but in the real world we were having to shoot the animals multiple times with it. It got to the point where I was telling guys that if the backstop allowed for it to just break out the AR and put the animal down with that. The absolute worst was a Winchester subsonic round that for some reason our senior range instructor decided one year that we should try out. I can't recall the actual projectile. That stuff would routinely require multiple rounds to kill the deer. I was so happy that I never had to put that ammo to use against a human adversary.
So well thought out and someone who know what he's talking about because he's actually done the testing to inform his opinions! I agree with every one on your list and I'll add two more, Barnes XPB and anything from PMC e.g. Starfire. Both are underloaded, so the Barnes expands fine but underpenetrates and the PMC's tend to not expand. Awesome review overall, well done! For me, the best performing loads in 9mm are always in the 124gr range, the hotter the better i.e. +P or +P+. Speer's Gold Dot, Federal's HST, Golden Saber Bonded, Hornady's Critical Duty, WW Ranger T and Ranger Bonded and even the XTP are all good performers in this range. The newer 147gr JHP's in 9mm are also decent performers, 147gr HST, Ranger Bonded, Ranger T, Golden Saber Bonded and Speer's 147gr Gold Dot. Remington (Federal actually) should just discontinue the unbonded Golden Saber in favour of the Bonded or Black Belt versions.
I have had pretty good luck with the Barnes TAC-XP in +p loading and yeah the Starfire is just terrible. The only issue I take with 147 loadings is that most of the time they are moving so slow that they are right on the threshold for expansion thus running a far greater risk of over penetration. Add in a barrier and they tend to fail since they were so close to not expanding anyway. But if you get a solid +p loading on a solidly well built 147 and that stuff can become a Chef's Kiss. I agree on the Sabres though I have had mixed bag results with the bonded and black belt. Sometimes they are great sometimes they don't work right having said that they are a vast improvement over the normal sabres that shed their jackets if you so much as look at them. Thank you for the kind words.
@@unclefreedom213that's why the 147 grains are meant for subcompacts or just shorter barrels. It is indeed slower to give the action more time to clear & also yielding less velocities. There not intended for 4" + barrels for that precise reason.
@@nova68cutie interesting 🤔 I've never heard of that ..I prefer 124 anyway 🤷♂️ its the original grain weight for 9mm Luger +P HST & GOLD DOT are my faves 👌
Liberty ammo is the best ammo you can buy. Ballistics don't lie. Go look at the tests by Paul Harrell and others. And for the record CD goes through level 3 armor. The average human body is 8" thick. Most 9mm over penetrates anyway. For concealed carry you can't beat it, because you're usually 3 yards or less.
yeah literally every test I've done and the reason for fbi protocol as well as every ballistician I know that has tested it would disagree with you. You seem very uninformed by what ballistic testing is and why all those numbers we use are important
Check out the top 10 rounds I recommend here ua-cam.com/video/aLTDB7TiteY/v-deo.html
Live in the city the gangster don't Kerr about what ammo they use for crime's.
And we have to be careful 🤔 the law is backwards.
@Jason Lopez Yes but that also goes to the morality of a protector. Jordan Peterson says something I really like. We are virtuous because we are dangerous but we have control over it. Bad guys aren't virtuous they are just evil they don't care who they hurt. We as protectors care about innocence and the lives of others and we protect those things children especially. Protectors will do anything they can to mitigate the possibility of injury to anything innocent we are supposed to protect. Hence your ammo choices we make these choices because not only do they work better they help up protect innocents that are not involved.
But that is the fundamental difference we are dangerous but good and virtuous. They are evil.
How about the Underwood Xtreme Defender 9mm round? Solid copper with what looks like a screwdriver tip.
@@rosco1960 it's on my top 10 I recommend
Sooo basically anything that is actually effective??
Be careful with USCCA, the company that provides the insurance money for them will judge your case before it gets to trial and basically determine if you are guilty or not before defending you. If they believe your case doesn't meet their requirements for lawful self defense, they may refuse to defend you. Kayla Giles case is an example of this.
Noted I will look into that case
I heard of something like that in passing. What was the other policy provider that was actually decent?
People should read the fine print. She killed her estrange husband in front of their 3 kids. She was an abuser that bragged about hitting him in texts to her friends. She shouldn't have owned a gun in the first place. Don't they usually take guns away from guys, accused/convicted of domestic abuse?
They also don't cover civil unrest.
I knew there was a catch, no way you get a lawyer on retainer for that price.
1. Winchester Silver Tip 1:17
2. G2 Rip 2:40
3. Liberty Munitions Civil Defense 7:17
4. Remington Golden Sabre 8:29
5. Sig Elite Performance Sierra V Crown 9:20
6. Browning X-Point 11:31
7. Winchester USA Ready Hex-Vent 12:18
8. Winchester Ranger One 13:01
9. Winchester Whitebox Hollow points 14:31
10. Federal HydraShock 15:18
Thanks for saving me time bro
I have seen many FBI tests with denim and gel block that many on the list performed extremely well 🤔🤔
I was surprised at 5 and 10
@@ethan.amosberg8354, 5 & 10 I believe are BS.
Thank you
Your criteria are very different from mine.
1-does my pistol like the ammo? i.e. does the gun function properly
2-is the ammo accurate.
3-Is the velocity and wt enough to penetrate my foe
coming in last
4-what kind of expansion
FMJ pistol rounds have been killing people since the 1890's as in the 7.63x25 C96 mauser and with no expansion.
Your pistol should shoot all of the ammo. Steel is fine for training (no longer much cheaper) though the point still stands that it's a good benchmark for reliability. If it shoots steel then It's a reliable firearm.
I wouldn't use USCCA if it were free.
suggestions?
I bought a handgun from a guy once, and he threw in a box of 9mm defensive rounds. They were the G2 RIP. I looked at him and said, "I'll never use those." He said, "Me neither." We got a chuckle out of it, and I took them. They've been sitting in a drawer ever since. Maybe one day I'll do some watermelon carving with them.
You bought you gun from another man of Substance and character it seems
RIP rounds would be hard to talk about to a jury
3:50 exactly
@Lindbo Knife & Tool yeah u wouldn't want ti explain that in the slightest
@@lindboknifeandtool personally, I'm not concerned with my choice of ammo in regards to the judicial system. I think you could make a compelling argument to how poorly they perform amidst a hypothetical aggravated assault trial which would rather be "murder" using more effective ammunition, lol.
Some proof of what he's saying would be nice. Keep talking numbers but a spreadsheet, footage, or some photos of the gel would be a lot more useful than "friendly man talks in garage".
Friendly man that talks in the shop covers that in a different video. I have been shooting gel for over a decade never wanted to do youtube and never thought I would. Real ordinance gel is not clear so kinda boring to watch bullets hit it. I do have spreadsheets and pictures I honestly didn't think folks would be interested since it's hard to digest if that's not your world. I might have to put it up on the descriptions so folks can download it if they want to
From firsthand experience when a friend had a negligent discharge (no, we are still not on speaking terms) with the Sig Sauer jacketed hollopoint defense ammo. All I can say, is they did exactly what was intended. It fully expanded to about twice the width of the 9mm bullet before firing. Its been 10 years or so, and i still dont walk correctly. So... at least anecdotally, i personally know what its like to be hit with that defense anmo. And from that point forward, thats all i use for defense. I guess I'm in that small camp of people who actually know firsthand what your carry ammo feels like on the receiving end. Thats not a brag, but i can vouch. One hit and i was down immediately.
Oh, and also the jacket did not separate from the lead. I still have it to this day, its wider than a .45 fmj. I would send you a picture of both the wound Channel measured in the er, and the expanded bullet, but can't share that on UA-cam
I use Sig Sauer for my Glock 43x most 9 and Glock 23 gen 3 40 S&W Sig Sauer elite 165 grain for the 40 and 9 and Sig NATO m17 124 grain +p for the 9mm wow that must have been some experience the sig elite rounds are quite nasty
So how did it happen and what gun was it?
@@digitalphoenix72
It's actually easy to share it on YT.
Just screen record whatever pictures you have and upload them and share the link or tell us to dig through your videos.
I'd be very interested in that if you ever do want to post it.
And thank you for sharing your experience.
(Also, super sorry about your bullet wound. That's gotta suck so much.)
To me it sounds like you have completely lost your mind. Most of the rounds you rag on do not over penetrate and they do expand or fragment putting all their energy in to the perpetrator that is threat to your life! All the energy into the perpetrator is stopping the perpetrator, stopping the attack and saving your life, family's life, or some neighbor's life.
The problem is very few rounds have truly effective stopping power in a conceal carry that has sufficient ammunition capacity for multiple attackers which is becoming more common.
To excacerbate the problem, those that were not raised with firearms tend to shy away from guns and ammo that has stopping power to stop someone on drugs.
We all know the Colt 1911 with the 45 ACP round was specifical designed to put drugged up natives charging with swords back into the philippine jungle be knocking them back into the jungle. The 38 service revolver was allowing native to charge out of the jungle to hack apart soldiers, even after the natives had more than 6 rounds in their body.
The 45 ACP has stopping power as do more powerful rounds like 357mag and 44mag, but very few people enjoy shooting large caliber guns. Most defensive carriers consider high power calibers unpleasant to shoot and you aren't going to find good conceal carry guns in larger calibers with sufficient round capacity for multiple attackers.
There is no golding bullet that is ideal for all situations. If someone is trying to run you over with a car you may need to penetrate the windshield. A round that will penetrate a windshield is a lot different than a round to punch through a t-shirt.
This desparity in differences and the need to be prepared for any situation leads to many chosing to stagger load their magazine with 2-3 different type rounds, not calibers.
Col Jeff Cooper who is largely responsible for modern gun safety training rightfully concluded from data that the 9mmx19mm parabellum was a "woefully under powered round that was not sufficient for self defense," but most of his data came from military style FMJ ball rounds.
The combination of many people not liking to shoot larger caliber guns and the 9mm being woefully under ppwered for self defense has empowered an industry for over 50yrs at maximizing the stopping power of smaller caliber amunition like 9mm.
You would not be able to rag on one round as bad for self defense if there was not a real or percieved need for that performance in the ammunition.
Law enforcement has forever sought a perfect balance of caliber and round style and they still haven't found the holy grail because it doesn't exist!
Interestingly, law enforcement buys "over powered" ammunition. Standard pressure SAAMI in some areas is the only ammunition available to the citizenery. The high pressure P+ and P++ is for law enforcement only in some jurisdictions.
Law enforcement is not involved at the time a crime is committed over 98% of the time. It is law abiding citizenery and known felons that kill most felons. Prof Gary Kleck pointed to studies that indicated 80%-85% of gun homicides were felon killing felon varying upon the definition of known felon based upon differences in number of arrests and convictions. Those numbers have changed some over the past 40yrs but the general picture is still true.
It is citizenery that conceal carry that need highly effective unicorn rounds for that magic 3 seconds that most gun fights or gun homicides occur in.
The fact that the 9mm, 40cal, 10mm (mid/small caliber) with best style ammo hasn't been solved satisfactorally for governments or citizens hasn't been solved for over 50yrs speaks to the depth of the problem.
Hollow points aren't supposed to be barrier performers. They're supposed to be terminal performance rounds.
and yet the entire protocol by which we test rounds is about performance through intermediate barriers. That's old think sorry to say everything now is tougher and striving to hit barrier testing
Show us you testing rounds that are barrier blind .... Js
@@nateburns5933 Don't you know they have these new Teflon coated super duper cop k!ller that goes through NIJ Level IV like it's not even there? lol
@@nateburns5933jhp’s? Pretty sure critical duty’s are the only ones that advertise they’re barrier blind.. not sure any others🤷🏼♂️
They’re not even terminal performance rounds. They were originally designed to mitigate over-penetration.
BS. Paul Harrell did a video on thr silvertip and it rocks. I'd trust him over you.
Paul is the best, most informative, and most charismatic guntuber on the platform.
Pauls the Goat🙏🙏🙏
Yeah, for sho, Paul Harrell is one of my top gun tube guys to watch. Mainly because of what other people describe as his "from the dawn of time explinations", personally I like the well articulated breakdowns to the minutely detail instead of just a couple sentences then moving on. Then again, I'm one that likes long form discussion podcasts that get Hella deep into a given subject.
same BS goes for the Civil Defense: to quote Paul's video:
"civil defense ammunition did a lot of damage to our ribs on the front of the target just annihilated our grapefruit lung "
And saying a 28 grain base only weighs 4 grains???
"c'mon man"
100%
The hst 124 gr +p from barrels at 3.75 and longer are the best performers in my opinion and have had the closest to picture performance through armadillos, and even in pigs
This is not an ad for USAA . But then it is.
😆 Yeah I'm doing a 50 mile March for them in May and was doing some fundraising Uscca is what I was thinking.
@@unclefreedom213 you said it a bunch too i was honestly wondering if there was a new company out 😂 thanks for this it’s priceless man i have hydra shocks and i just emptied the mags out set aside for range use only. I appreciate your valuable opinion testing and feedback. ❤the 2A community y’all are the best
We’ve been with USAA for 27-Years - yep, I’m OLD [Army service: 1989-95] - and they GREAT!! Great Video, too. Just found you & I’ll be here regularly🇺🇸
My pleasure love passing on info that I learn
Careful with USCCA. Read the fine print. If convicted, you may be responsible for all or partial court costs and attorney fees.
Explore all the options out there before you make a decision. Your life may depend on it.
OLD Silver Tip was different then new stuff. I used to buy the bullets for reloading. 175 g in 10mm and 145 in 357. I have taken multiple deer and hogs with them and RARELY recover a bullet.
The Golden Sabre +P 45 has taken two deer for me too. BOTH BANG FLOPS THRU&THRU. NO bullet recovered! Both inside 35-40 yards.
Hydra Shok is anotger one thats changed theu the years. When Federal bought technology it was a good bullet. I have also taken deer abd hogs with 45acp, 41 Mag and 357 Mag. NO BULLETS recovered. All left large holes and game quickly recovered.
Good video!
Oh yeah the old stuff was a hunting round made to penetrate the next stuff seems to be an underperforming defensive round. They still make a hunting version but I feel like the defensive stuff has wrecked its reputation
I believe attorneys on retainer is a good company because they are actual attorneys and not a insurance company. I think that's the name
Every hollow point has a manufacturers suggested minimum velocity which must be met if they are to expand as designed. The heavier the bullet and the shorter the barrel the lower the velocity out of the barrel and into the target. My carry gun has a 3.5 inch barrel. Because of this I went from Federal HST 147 grain to Federal HST 124 grain. The 124 grain consistently exceeded the minimal velocity thresholds while the 147 grain was barely at and sometimes below the manufacturers velocity thresh hold. If your life or the life of a loved one is on the line Its always better to have a lighter bullet that consistently expands than a heavier bullet that does not.
With the exception of Federal's 150gr HST Micro, which they designed for microcompacts.
..Velocity IS the main parameter WHEN determining the actual validity of (in THIS case) defensive ammo. I WON’T take ONE person’s opinion on VIRTUALLY ANYTHING.
@@m118lr thanks for SHOUTING certain WORDS to MAKE YOUR POINT, as irrelevant as your last statement is.
yes! exactly ! But, If they get too fast of FPS many brands expand too soon and then don't penetrate enough. Its a fine line to get both just right tho.
@@m118lr nothing wrong and in fact everything right in your desire to gather as much info as possible
I'll trust Lucky Gunner's testing, because they have actual data to show, compared to this guy and his "trust me bro" mentality.
This is the same guy who thinks 9 mm and 5.56 are go to rounds. In relation to 9 mm,since we’re not presenting data, the steel I shoot for pistols barely moves or rings from 9 mm. More like a .22. .45 ACP and 10 mm get a loud ring when hit and the steel blows away.
Had he actually been in combat he would know that the majority of this real two way shooters coming back from the deserts and mountains vociferously complained that it took 4-5 HITS ( not trigger pulls) to put an enemy down.
My go to is 10 mm and .308. One hit stops. If you guys want to mimic the military, I was in uniform for 18 years. The rifles and ammo they use are from the cheapest bidder. My life is worth more! One last thing to think about is that in modern combat only a very few people are killed by bullets. It is mostly from artillery and bombs!
Oh yes. It is USCCA, not USAA which is car and homeowners insurance!
@@robertgoodrich8953 if you think there's any noticable difference between a modern 9mm and a modern .45 in human tissue then you're as big of a joke as the OP of this video.
As for 5.56, it was never advertised as a bullet that causes superior wounds relative to other larger calibers. 5.56, however, is much lighter and thus allows troops to carry far more ammunition into combat. It's been well documented that more ammo of a smaller caliber is a better alternative to having far fewer of a more powerful cartridge. Due to fire suppression being so critical during actual combat, it's necessary to bring as much ammunition as possible if you intend on gaining and maintaining fire superiority.
Lastly, you said you were "in uniform" for 18 years. Well, plenty of people spent 20 years in military service while never seeing any actual combat. That being said, I don't mean to diminish another veteran's service. So, if you fall into the category I mentioned before, don't take it as a personal attack. I simply mean to say that time in service doesn't make someone a subject matter expert.
@@robertgoodrich8953 be vewy vewy qwiet
@@RoninSkye24
What ☝️ this guy said
I use Speer gold dot and Hornady critical defense. I do have Winchester white box also. I have seen Paul Harrell use it, and it did alright on the meat target. Good video sir.
Yep
Critical Duty is better and used by federal agents
@@richardcarden4161 Perhaps but they have more restrictions regarding the Art of Shooting that you can shake a stick at.
In 9mm. Standard pressure 124gr HST. Federal 124gr Punch. Remington 124gr +P Bonded Golden Saber. Hornady 124 or 135gr +P Critical Duty.
Speer 124gr +P Gold Dot.
All trustworthy loads to consider.
The 357 silver tip was the highest one shot stopper for a long time so it must be the lower velocities of 9mm preventing it from working.
it not anywhere close to the same bullet design as the old one
Silver tip 9mm is fine. Paul Harrell did a video on it. The bullets had the exact velocity, expansion, and penetration one could expect out of standard pressure 9mm hollow points. There was nothing wrong with them.
If you're talking about E. Marshall's data it's the federal 125 grain hi shock jhp 357 mag. He had it at 98% one shot stops to the torso.
Federal nyclad 357 lead hollow points.
@@skystrider3717 I shot a bunch in 10mm auto and while it performed fine, it wasn't a hot as I liked it. Winchester had the Silver Tip loaded down to around 540 fpe and that just won't cut it! I normally carry Underwood 150 gr JHP and these out of my Glock 40 hover around the 800 fpe mark....quite the difference from the marshmallow loading of Winchester.
I shoot Underwood 124 gr+p+. It's 1300 fps, doesn't over penetrate, doesn't spilt cases, and is extremely consistent. The only problem, if you consider it a problem, is over expansion. It dumps energy so fast it doesn't over penetrate. For 17.99 a box its wicked through my sig p320 X legion. It just works and well.
I’d like to see this list for 10mm rounds. Civil defense 60 grain seems like a good choice in 10mm, but I don’t have the experience that you do.
I do think “overpenetration” is a nonissue is MOST cases, if not all. So I don’t base my decisions on whether or not the projectile penetrates deeper than 16 inches, and even “under penetration” (in this case 8”) doesn’t bother me too much because I understand what the 12-16” requirements was based on; I’m more concerned about if the ammo is going to do what it’s supposed to do! I don’t want a hollow tip that won’t expand reliably. Nor do I want ammo that has a hard time defeating any and every barrier.
With what you're looking at for criteria I was really impressed shooting the 10mm in critical duty, hst if you can find them, if you want barrier blindness don't go with things like civil defense they don't perform in harder barriers. Gold Dot due to speed are awesome in 10mm as well
Gimmick ammo that is light and super fast lacks mass for momentum and once it hits it might make a nice bloody crater but it won't penetrate well. In 10mm, 180 grain ammo at or past 500 ft-lbs will tend to be a one-shot stop round. If it's 200 grain when you can find it, it will be slower in all likelihood but penetrate better. For instance in 10mm to bring down a deer 200 grains at 1250 fps [=694 ft-lbs] works a lot better than 155 grains at 1500 feet per second [775 ft-lbs] with its lesser penetration. This is why the government bans calibers past .50, because the physical mass of bigger stuff is what really does the material damage, all things being equal.
@@jackieow good info! I appreciate that!
Didn't the civil defense 60 grain 10mm defeat body armor? I've seen it shoot meat and it is vicious
I personally tested it out of my Glock 20. Shooting 5 rounds at a new level IIIa vest. Every round went through with ease. The only other rounds that made it through out of every pistol caliber available and countless dozens of different brands of ammunition, was the 5.7x28mm 27grain green tip in the red and black box. Out of my pistol I was getting right at 2450-2500 FPS and they were easily getting through. The 10mm 60 grain Civil Defense and 5.7 mentioned above were the only two that got through. The 5.7 with 27 grain FN SS195s got through about 40% of the time.
Nothing in 9mm, 40, 45 etc. even got close. All were stopped easily.
Thanks for the info. Most of us out here don’t have the ability to test various types of ammunition and we rely on magazine articles, UA-cam, rumble, etc., for our information on defense ammo. You did a good job of lining out the problems with each round you talked about. This is my first time viewing your channel and will watch others. Well done!
Thank you
Let’s all be honest that no matter whatever we carry we will never know if it works until we end up in a bad situation. Whatever the case, practice with what you have and you should be fine. Nuff said.
I believe in having the best option possible that said if I miss with my favorite duty round and I get domed by a FMJ I should've practiced more. Handguns put holes in things gotta hit what you're aiming at
The advancement in terminal ballistics over the last thirty five years is amazing.
So true. Flashlights are the same way. I 0 years ago I carried the 6P from surefire and it was unbelievable 61 lumens of blinding xenon light now I have an easy 1.5k of led goodness in a light half the size and cost
From my understanding, the Golden Saber has a better reputation in 45 ACP. Back when they came out that is what I used in my 45's. These days bullet tech has reached the point where there are better options out there. My personal choices are Cor Bon or Ranger SXT.
Correct, the Golden Sabers performed very well in ballistic gel tests in .45 ACP, but in 9mm it performs like a FMJ. I guess it might just needs a larger opening in the front for it to open up reliably.
I've seen a difference in Golden Sabers if they are bonded or not. I think most boxes for .45 that I've seen are bonded. .40 S&W were a mixed bag. Not sure if they bonded 9mm as much. HSTs and Ranger Ts seem to be among the better options currently.
Yeah but Winchester Ranger Talon series does the same concept a little better in .45acp.
The WWB in meat and bones 115 grain JHP work great for me. And in meat and bones no critical duty or defense round will expand any way shape or for except the .40 critical defense. It did really well. All target were set up like Paul Harrell targets. Only way I can get and critical duty or defense rounds to open in 9mm and .40 is to go through a water jug 1st. Gimmick rounds, in my opinion. I don’t do gel I do clothing and meat n bones. Hst, and law enforcement golden sabers, and ranger t in .40. Gold dots are fair.
Rem bonded+p 124g golden saber bthp is my 9mm go to defense load it works.😁
I'd like to know your reasoning behind the Winchester hollow points because all the other tests that I've seen in videos it works and it's consistent and does what it's supposed to do and with all the Winchester negatives almost makes you wonder if you have a thing against Winchester
I have some OLD SilverTip in .380 and 30-30. Obviously for different purposes.
Both performed well in my testing -
but it appears 2020s SilverTip is a mere shadow of the 1990s version.
EDIT: Seeing the "silver" bullets (not cuurs LOL) you mentioned, they are all "shiny".
My SilverTips are actually metallic silver (dull) color -
I think they are actually silver alloy, but that's too expensive nowadays.
Yeah the new ones are nickle plated and are basically the white box hollow points plated in nickle. I have some old Silvertip in 30-06 if nothing else they were cool looking and those did work for sure.
This used to be the standard for many departments but went by the wayside after the '86 Miami shootout.
@Simple Simon : I still have a handful of those in .380ACP. Those are (roughly..) 88 grain HP's with (barely..) a very thin aluminum 'jacket'. Don't expect penetration over 7" in ANYTHING.
And here's a ballistics test of the "original" (10 years ago) -- 10" penetration through denim.
ua-cam.com/video/Pk4cgOjJfvY/v-deo.html
@@unclefreedom213 What idiot came up with the idea of nickle plating a bullet? I have some old ones that I bought when I bought my Ruger .45 Colt. They still work, and work well.
I agree for sure on liberty defense ammo. I've only run the 380 and it just powders other than the base.
Ive never shot the .380 but I can see that is a really fragile bullet moving at way 🔥
In the 2010s I loaded my used Glock 21 gen 4 .45 with Civil Defense loads. I lived in a metro area 🏘. The load seems hot 🔥 but I questioned the specs 🤓. I also had Winchester Ranger T T series 230gr +P.
You might think I'm crazy, but I mostly carry cheap wad cutters in my pistols. .38, .44 special or .357, it works just fine and meets my expectations.
I've talked to a bunch of old timers that tell me about loading wadcutters backwards. I have a box of 250 148gr HBWC in the reloading room, might be something I need to try. Old tech vs New tech
I carry my M&P. 40 with Federal HSTs, 165gr. I completely trust these rounds, they just work.
Man it takes some funny shit to make me laugh, but dammit I cracked up at some of the explanations you threw out there. Just say it like it is . Enjoyed your show & info .
Thank you! My Nana always taught me to say it like it is, the people that get mad because you told them like it is, weren't gonna listen anyway.
Remington Golden Sabre is kinda misleading. There's been a lot of criticism for the brass jacket separating, so they've made a bonded version that's supposed to NOT separate. Itd be interesting to see testing with that version.
I remember hydro shok from 1990. I liked it for my 357 magnum. But it's old school and sadly I don't own a 357 anymore. I buy federal HST now in 45 calibur for carry ammo.
Solid choice
Just finished this video and agree with all of it. I have personal experience with the 40 SW Federal Hydra Shock. Former LEO and found myself having to dispatch a couple different, very big, dogs. Complete passthrough, plugged up tip with hair and 0 expansion. Keep up the good work. Also anyone who is wooed into buying the niche ammo is a fool, it doesn't work and gives a prosecutor more crap to try and use against you in a self defense case!
Gotta watch them critical defense too. They perform great, but there's been several times I've witnessed them fail to feed , the polymer tip catching on the feed ramp
Hmm...crazy. I haven't had that problem with the .40 s&w critical defense (shot through m&p 40c). Had no problems with the .38 +p critical defense either, but then that wouldn't catch on the feed ramp, as it doesn't have a feed ramp. Rather light round, though.
You could also include any PMC Bronze JHP pistol ammo. Those bullets will not expand in gel out of any length barrel.
I use the Defender 147 gr. 9mm hollow points (recommended by my range). Fairly inexpensive, but if the gel block test I've seen (115 gr.), these should perform as needed.
The winchester defender? If so that's a solid round
147 gr HST 😎
I've tested the golden saber in 9mm and 40 through all types of material. Never had an issue. Every round opened and penetrate very well.
GREAT VIDEO! Blessings of grace, mercy, and peace! Thanks for your service
If you handloaded, you'd know that powder choice determines pressure at a given velocity, or velocity at a given pressure. Not intending to be snarky, but there are several powder formulations that will get to 1200 fps in a 4" barrel with a 124 gr bullet and stay within the 9mm's standard pressure spec. No "+P" necessary.
I'm actually quite an accomplished handloader hence the lyman over my shoulder. These are factory loads where i discuss handloads I say with a handload
I agree with your list other than the federal JHP H-shock never had over penetration issues with bare gel nor denim/ gel
Hello, I just wanted to reply to your comment, you have no reason to believe me as I'm just some schmuck you do not know but I wanted to try to help you if I can. I never did any gel testing or such but I do have two actual real world uses of fed hydrashock against human predators. Both had between 5 & 6 properly placed strikes using this ammo with the projectile sailing through without stopping the attack. It in fact caused an ammo change department wide due to the miserable performance. Please don't place too much faith into this round, I just want you to survive. Best wishes to you my friend, take care.
@@louisclemento9982and there’s also tons and tons of real world examples of hydrashok working to stop threats
The golden saber is definitely an old school JHP. Nothing fancy, and not bonded. It does break apart, but I’d say it’s the least bad offering on this list.
I know the video is a year old, but what about checking into the now popular PPU Rangenaster JHP? It’s an affordable JHP you can buy in boxes of 50 for not much more than FMJ.
I doubt USSCA will pay for anything 😂
Enjoyed this immensely. Good information and highly entertaining, blew the sunflower seeds out of mouth twice.
Golden sober +p bonded are awesome ive done extensive testing bonded Golden Saber+p I got a video of plugging it and it still split in two pieces now when I downed the cloth to 4 layers it was beautiful. Obviously u have never tried golden saber+p bonded. It took 8 pieces of cotton to clogg and still split 4 layers was perfect try it please the plain golden saber sucks I'll give u that
I've shot them once wasn't impressed with barrier performance. Hell I'll try em again I'm okay with admitting I'm wrong if they're solid. I have a few others that have been requested to test as well.
I've used 9x19mm bonded GS 124gr JHP in my 9mm guns for around 16mo. I like the better QC Remington uses: 2020s. I use Federal HST 124gr +P too.
my preferred crry is an old 357 6 shooter. loaded with 180gr jhp. also happens to be my preferred deer round when using pistol to hunt. I get uniform expansion, plenty of stopping power and the bullet generally stays in the target (no over-penetration). when I prefer to conceal carry, it's the tried and true 45 acp, 240gr hornady critical defense.
I don't ever want to have to use them in a defensive situation, but if I ever had to, I don't want to use 7 or 8 rounds when 1 will do the job.
240gr of gun powder is a lot for 1 ammo
He's referring to bullet weight dummy
Sig elite ammo seems to be pretty hot, even their ball ammo, compared to other manufacturers offerings. Never had a split case, but recoil is noticeably more than other rounds I’ve shot with subcompact pistols.
Seeing how many comments I've gotten on the ammo it seem to be across the board. I agree it is noticeable on recoil and report
@@unclefreedom213 The V Crown 38 Super is pretty effective, but a bit on the slow side for a 38 Super, only listed at about 1230 fps. But it is fast enough to ensure the bullets expand well.
I think Sig Knew they needed above 1200FPS to get the old Sierra HP Bullet to expand. That's my theory. It sure wouldn't expand in Sierras own factory loads until they redesigned it a few months ago. Sierra completely re-enginerded their 380/9mm bullets. The large HP holes are .080 thou deeper and the actual bullet sticking out of the case is longer than the old bullet (to make up the weight). Their factory bullet is called Sierra Outdoor Master. Its much much better than their old stuff. Utuber "Tools and Targets" tested the old 9mm/380 and shamed them about how it wouldn't expand a few months ago! (So it over-penetrates) Sierra saw this, and improved it! Its now a really good 11-14" deep in gel, HP self defense round! (I don't know about barrier testing because most of these wont do anything past 4 layers of denim and gel) ua-cam.com/video/lHrO6lso5rY/v-deo.html Hornady Critical DUTY is the ONLY one I know of designed to go thru barriers and achieve 12-14" gel after passing thru denim as well.
As a Californian that only started carrying two years ago lol, the silver tip was the first ammo I carried because I didn’t know better 😅😂
You are absolutely right about every single one of these rounds except. Civil defense. I had a self defense situation with this ammo and it absolutely got the job done. The stoping round went through his cellphone and and stop the attack...
Great video tho 🔥
It may have worked, but will it work all the time when there are more barriers involved like car glass, 10” of meat or bone, etc
@@spencermichaelson1882 it went through a cell phone and stopped him.. I'm sure it will 🤣
@@AtlantaPrin doubt
@@spencermichaelson1882if you're shooting through barriers in a "self defense situation" your probably going to prison for the rest of your life. That said, a car door/window glass are not exactly significant barriers to contend with vs a cell phone. Short of hitting a car door window mechanism, which will stop most handgun rounds
@@noway6633 if there’s a known gunman outside your bedroom door or wall r u gonna be chill because barriers mean prison time? Lol how about if there’s 3 dudes threatening your life and your car is boxed in ? Barriers are all around us. Also there’s been no cases of overpenetration into victims even with cops, it’s not a big deal , but there have been many cases of bullets not penetrating to vitals
“ God Bless You …Your A Real Life Saver …!””
Thank you, glad I found this, I’m in California, winding up in jail or sued is gonna happen.. even with Castle Doctrine done perfectly
Thr sad reality is even done perfectly in my state you're going to get sued for wrongful death. Even if you're proven good shoot, getting sued afterward by the family is separate and almost certain. It's a fine line we citizens walk to defend ourselves.
That's a shame but don't let being charged standing in the way to save yourself, home, or family. Lets us all pray we never have to do it.
@@brucemedley69 better judged by 12 than carried by 6
@Uncle Freedom not in calif!! The Civil suit even if you win will leave you broke and living in the trees along the freeway.
The thing about civil court is that you're not judged by 12 but by some stupid judge
I fall into the Paul Harrell way of thinking; folks are over reliant on these gel tests which are missing something pretty important; bone. I like the fact that Paul would do a gel test, in addition to a Meat Test. Damage from bullets hitting bones, causing the bones to protrude into some vital organ should not be underestimated.
The problem is its inconsistent I love Paul and what he did with the meat target.
Gel is a comparable medium nothing more but the depths and measurements we look at have proven time and time again in real bodies and autopsy that the standards we look for in real gel relate to stops in threats
You keep using "USAA" when you really mean "USCCA." I'm sure that the people at USAA (who do not sell self-defense insurance) would appreciate not being dragged in to this.
XTP and Gold dot are my defenses rounds, and by Underwood Ammo. I’ve seen tnoutdoors9 tests of both and a few others ballistic gel tests and in my 10mm platform. The gold dot in 10mm, however, isn’t meant to travel that fast and looks like a meteor with jacket separating 😂👍🏽
Tnoutdoors is very underrated the way he mines data is great. What you described with 10mm is something I harp on fast doesn't always meant better after a point
I have only used Federal Hydra-Shock in.45 caliber. With the subsonic speeds it doesn’t over penetrate. Horniday Critical Defense in all other calibers. Working as security / personal protection over pen was a huge concern for liability. Shooting through barriers was highly frowned upon. You often don’t know what is on the other side other than the intended target.
I like that you selected your ammo based on your performance need. That's actually the biggest reason behind the video. Folks get seriously wrapped around the axel doing everything they can. to discredit what I said, all the while missing the part where I discussed my results and where I would pick the round. I applaud you sir.
Even in .45ACP, the 230gr. HydraShoks aren't that great. If you can find the 185gr.+P version, it works SLIGHTLY better. The HydraShoks are an old design, and as soon as I could, they were replaced by the HSTs.
@@SouthernRebel1970 I call BS on that. I saw a video in which someone shot a dead hog broadside with the 230gr hydra shok and it expanded very nicely and penetrated very well. If it expands but it exits, most likely it won't have enough kinetic energy to really do any collateral damage.
@@wuxxie843 Not going to chance it just in case someone's child could be behind the target
@@joelkelly169 If a child were to be strapped behind an attacker, I wouldn’t even risk shooting, just take cover. He (or even she) can just turn around doing things with the child facing me, what should I do now?
My top 3 rounds these days are: #1 Barnes VOR-TX or TAC-XPD 115gr solid copper HP; #2 Federal Hydra-Shok Deep 135gr; #3 Federal HST 124gr. I've seen testing done on all three and all three work in bare gel, clothing, and even barriers that a civilian is likely to have to shoot through. (and frankly, if I have to shoot through barriers like windshields/plywood/steel doors then I'm not really gonna be worried about overpenetration because the HP didn't expand)
I always have carried the same ammo as my local police issues it makes ammo selection not a issue in court just make sure it works with your barrel length
Author & cadre Massad Ayoob advised carrying only factory made ammunition. He also says choose loads like the local PD or sheriffs use 🚔.
@@DavidLLambertmobile He's a very practical guy.
@SteamCrane Most US PDs and state agency, county sheriffs use either Speer Gold Dot, Federal HST, Ranger One/T series, Hornady XTP-Critical Duty.
I mean no offense but this is a common myth spread around that ammo type could end you up in jail. It’s just not true even a little bit. Pretty much zero cases have ever resulted in a conviction. Carry what makes the most sense to you. As cops carry a myriad of different rounds kinda negating the point entirely anyway. People need to stop spreading this misinformation if you have some proof of a conviction that’s not some 1 off case I’d love to see it because people can sue over anything they can sue you for having a cool grip and stupid stuff all the time.
You don’t have immunity like the police do? If you shoot through a wall or plywood or drywall or three a person or bounce a bullet off of the sidewalk and kill somebody., no member of the government is going to try to protect you
This video is actually very surprising to me seeming as I usually stick all of those rounds in random order in one mag and carry it
Staggering is good. Just realize all rounds won't have the same trajectory
That is your list of what not to purchase...do you have a list of your favorite home defense round?
Yes there is another video of my top ten favorites
I cast lead target bullets. Cast lead will harden as it ages. It may test soft the day after it is poured but I've seen a lead bullet have a hardness of 11 the day after casting and that same batch of bullets will test 14-15 two months later. Defense ammo sits in magazines a long time. Maybe the cores are hardening over time. That might be a good test for a video. Test fresh ammo and let the same batch sit for 6 months and maybe more for a year. There are test kits to measure hardness or you can have a lab do the testing.
What are 10 you'd recommend?
link in description
Full metal jacket did a good job on the enemy's During the wars. Today, you can't be too picky . Anything is better than throwing rocks. All you need is a headshot with any.
We wouldn't have run it if not for the convention and heads are hard to hit. I agree it does the job there are just better ways to do the same job now
Every bullet has a niche, and purpose. Hollow points are velocity-based, and some of the lighter ammo you obviously wouldn't take up north and use during the winter time but for weather like in Florida all distances out of a full size gun they work.
And I get it these are this guy's opinions and everybody has opinions including me. But I would suggest watching other UA-camrs, and Paul's videos and do your own research. And I don't carry any of the bullets mentioned on this list, but I do have magazines and guns loaded at home with some of these. The reason I don't carry these is because I'm in my truck a lot, or in areas where there's a lot of barriers so I carry Underwood extreme defender or extreme penetrator. Unless I'm in the woods then I carry cherries, or extreme hunter, that are full power.
The caveat to all this is what he's saying can be true depending on what gun and barrelink through using, what caliber, what the weather is and how people are dressed, so do the research and find out what's best for you and you will probably find there are multiple designs for multiple purposes.
But good video sir. I'm not knocking you at all. 🤝
Glad I found your channel I subscribed. It's USCCA, not usaa. Golden Sabor usually work better in the +p version. You can keep Hornady critical defense also. Hornady XTP bullets are my personal favorite. They must be driven HOT yet they expand and penatrate deep! I carry a 45 so I DON'T like federal HST either! I give a shit how big they get or how pretty they are! At 30 yards penatration is less than adequate! Federal is always slower than advertised velocities also! My take on everything is carry a 45 convert it to Super, use Buffalo Bore, Double Tap or Underwood ammunition and call it a day...
Hahahah Can't believe I mixed those two up. I'm doing a fundraiser for USAA 50 mile run next month must have still had it on the brain. The issue with sabers is the jacket separation I also love those xtps. I have love for the 45 as well but I will say Critcak duty still ranks way ip there out of 45. Handguns are all just poking holes either way
Concur on Underwood. I run 135gr XD Supers out of my FNX-45
I don't know what you consider cheap, but at a dollar+ per round, Silvertips ain't cheap. That said, I'm glad you do in-depth testing that I don't see anywhere else. My absolute favorite round was the Federal GuardDog ammo (9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP) which of course Federal no longer makes. Excellent video, looking forward to watching more.
I don’t know who you gave over a dollar a round too for silver tips but they saw you coming . I bought some just for range plinking about a month ago and I got two boxes of 50 rounds for 19.99 a box. That was I think 39 cents a round .
They must be very Old boxes, they dont make 50 round boxes anymore.@@VladimirTheLeadHead
Way back when Winchester Black Talons were pulled off the market they just happened to be what I carried in my Glock 21 .45. I had to find something different because the BTs were going to run out, they were worth a lot because they were forbidden and I didn't want the legal exposure if I had to use my weapon. Went to my LGS and explained my issue to the owner (who BTW i learned was a blithering idiot) and he told me "buy the golden Saber. The guy who designed BTs went to work at remington and it's the exact same bullet except it's gold" Um, okay Cliffy. Ended up going with 185 grain cor-bon until the Hornady critical duty and defense came out and switched to them.
If you ever want the Talon back grab some Ranger T that is the black talon just not black
I carry hst, gold dots, and Remington golden saber in .45+p. 185gr at 1100fps and the jacket separation issue doesn’t seem to make much difference. I’ve had consistent results with it.
Was surprised to hear about the silver tip it's what I carry in my 10mm gonna have to look for a different defensive 10mm round
I put my top 10 go to rounds in the pinned comment link
Pretty much anything in a stout 10mm is going to moving out fast enough to expand and do some serious damage.
@Tim Claus Yeah most 10mm falls into that almost magnum category
Trust me bro, if you shoot someone with a 10mm anything, you're gonna penatrate the perp!!! Just like a 44magnum!
@@johnrodriguez5277 The bigger the drain holes, the quicker they run out of hydraulic fluid, lol....
I don't have a problem with the M17 +P 124 gr ammo. In fact, I found them to be no hotter than the non +P version of the V-Crown 124 -- as in they are about the same muzzle velocity give or take 10 fps which is immaterial.
Good video. I tend to stay away from all the gimmicky exotic ammo that tends to flood the market every year or so, and stick with Federal HST or Gold Dots.
Totally not surprised to see the god awful terrible Browning X Point 147 grain 9mm on this list. Before I had even watched this video, that was one of the rounds that immediately came to mind.
Was surprised to see Sig's Elite Defense V Crown on this list. I agree it is loaded hot, I was getting right at and sometimes over 1,200 FPS out of a 3.98 inch barrel with the 115 grain variety and not much less out of the 124's. In bare gel, they did expand. I don't recall doing any barrier tests with them at that time so I couldn't comment on that aspect.
Yeah that x point is a special kind of terrible.
Look at the Liberty 10mm ballistics - it is a 'One and Done' round at 2400fps 780ftlb!!
Federal HST and Speer Gold Dots are the gold standard imo. Both are much more expensive than most other jhp but for obvious reasons.
I bought 1,000 rounds of Sig Sauer Vcrown 115 jhp for $470. Not terrible for the price but are basically range ammo for me.
They are super accurate though the v crowns. Love HST what inwould say though is the Federal punch is pretty damn solid and cheap. That bullet design is pretty stellar
Sierra just redesigned the 380/9mm bullet used in their Sierra Outdoor master and I'm pretty sure it was the same bullet in the Sig V Crown. Its now a much deeper center opening . Its much much better than the old Sierra ammo Utuber "Tools and Targets" tested the old 9mm/380 and shamed Sierra about how it wouldn't expand! (so it overpenetrates) Sierra saw this, and improved it! Its now a really good 11-14" deep in gel, HP self defense round! (I don't know about barrier testing because most of these wont do anything past 4 layers of denim and gel) ua-cam.com/video/lHrO6lso5rY/v-deo.html There is 2 other vids where he tested the old Sierra bullet and 1 other new one where he tests the new bullet in a 8" AR pistol.
I find Winchester white box in 9mm to be excellent. It expands and penetrates quite well, just as well as much more expensive ammo. Also the silver tips I've tested have done quite well. I agree about the Federal Hydroshock, it's a waste of money. You should include "Sierra in 9mm" is terrible stuff. The 185 in 45 acp actually works as advertised though. I do like the V-Crown though.
Great information and your up front opinion and test results are gonna weigh in heavily on my future defensive ammo purchase!! Well done buddy!
Thanks!! Dude!
147 silver tip is not bad it actually penetrates pretty deep
Sorry to here about the Sig ammo, Iv got about 200 rounds of Vcrown 😢. It doesn’t make everybody’s top 10 but it’s the first time Iv seen it on a worst 10, lol. I’m a big Hornady fan but during the great ammo shortage it became available at a decent price an I grabbed some.
During the ammo issues us when it really took off. It was on the shelf when nothing else was. It's not bad ammo it's just not good for defensive use from every test I've done and honestly most that I've seen. I've also read and been told of it not working on things as small as a raccoon. That said it is accurate
You're absolutely right with most of these rounds when it comes to a 9 mm cartridge. However, if you go up to the better millimeter, and by that I mean 10 mm you might find it some of these these rounds actually function correctly. Since I live in an area where large predators may decide they want to have me for lunch or they might want dogs or my family, the 10 mm is my only option for daily carry.
With that said, that RIP Round is a bad idea from the start. The silver tip is an antique no longer made the way it was originally designed..
I might hunt with Winchester ammunition, but I'm not defending myself with that stuff against a two leg predator . Hornady, critical defense, Hornady critical duty are excellent options that have a really high performance rate.. and if you have to go cheap, Remington Green and white box hollow points perform as well or better than most of this fancy garbage. The federal Hydro shock in anything less than 3 to 7 magnum or 10 mm is not going to expand properly.. It just doesn't have the right properties.
Overall, I think we agree on most of this stuff that you laid out when speaking about 9 mm defensive ammunition. You just got a new subscriber.
Can you please test the Freedom Munitions X-DEF 124gr +P ? I'm currently carrying these rounds on all my guns because is affordable (cheap) I need to know if I should get rid of it or is okay to carry.
I will track some down and reach out to some folks. Shoot me a message on @unclefreedom213 on Instagram so I don't lose this message.
Any new information or follow up on this particular item?
G9 is the best imo
Also, Remington makes a bonded version of the golden saber that is much better
It's tricky making a 9x19mm that will expand while still getting to the vitals.
Hornady would agree with you as would most bullet companies. Hell just handgun ammo in general it's definitely a balance of speed, lead density, and jacket core construction.
@@unclefreedom213 Unless you are dealing with a 357, 41 or 44 Mag, 357 Sig, 38 Super, or 10mm, you are pretty much always going to be on the margin of not fast enough to expand reliably.
I can explain the Golden Sabre. Back 30 years ago, Winchester put out the Black Talon. Remington, wanting to capitalize on Winchesters bad press surrounding the Black Talon, tried to copy it and failed miserably. Winchester essentially rebranded the Black Talon to Ranger after they ditched the evil black bullet.
Forget insurance. Become A Cop! You can shoot a unarmed hostage! Wish I was kidding.
Or an innocent Airman that answers his door because Karen sent the sheriff to the wrong apartment.
@@SpookyEng1 RIP Roger Fortson
I was a FBI Certified Firearms Instructor for a State Police Agency and a a shooter/Handloader since 1970. Tested LOTS of stuff in dirt/Gel/Water Jugs/Wet Newsprint, yold cars, wood, steel/ you name it. Best we ever came up with was the Federal HST in all calibers. Speer G2 with the clear polymer plug like the Hornady - sucked.
So the current contract tound in 40 and 9mm and highest testing bullet in the protocol the fbi set forth, the Hornady round in critical duty sucked. The second highest performer was almost a wash between HST and Gold Dot. in the 9m and 40
Edit misread thebest we can up with in regards to HST. I agree the G2 is terrible
Those Sig V crowns have setback issues too but there really accurate.. they get pushed back easily when you chamber them.. but I actually like Golden sabers in other calibers like the double tap 10mm 165 grain golden sabers are pretty insane and they still get 14" of penetration but leave a devastating wound channel.. Winchester Ranger T's suck in 9mm it seems but in 40 I actually like them kinda but you can't ever beat gold dots HST's and some budget loads that still work some of the rounds your mentioning might be different with a different caliber but you can pretty much always count on gold dots & HST's
absolutely on the v crowns I have seen that myself. I would disagree on the ranger t in 9mm every ranger t test I've done in +p and in 40 has passed including tests I've been present for done by other ammo manufacturers. The 165 Saber is the same projectiles loaded in 40 as well and while I haven't shot them in 10mm I'm still getting jacket separation in .40 velocity
Gotta watch all rounds for that setback. It will over pressure the gun and possibly create a dangerous come apart.
I rotate my ammo out as needed and visual inspect. And a round that's been chambered a few times gets set to the middle of the mag.
But visual inspection/comparison of length is the safest method.
Meh, I'm going to keep running my 155gr golden sabers in 40. They're clean(ish), accurate and and don't rupture the case while still delivering on the horsepower.
The only ammo on your list that I own and would carry for EDC is Federal Hyrdo Shock. I have seen it perform well in gel tests. You do provide sound advise on the danger of over-penetration. I would be wary of USCAA insurance because they have a history of denying coverage if the insurance adjuster thinks the case is not worth defending. If you plea bargain to a lesser offense they will demand you repay the legal fees.
I’m glad you put the silver tip as first. I’ve seen nothing but bad performance out of 90% of Winchesters silver tip line.
Oh it is just terrible. I love ballistics testing and really get to nerd out on it. Hell I've even done a bunch on .308, 30-06, .243, 300wm 6.5 and 6mm creed, working on 7 prc and 300 prc now out to 1k not because we need to know but because dammit I wanna know
Yes it completely sucks.
Works on werewolves, so i have heard.
@@unclefreedom213 To do ballistics nerding to the max you can get a big block of clay or mud like Kentucky Ballistics did in his 10mm testing, and compare crater volumes (how much grain or water to fill the crater). That way you can get real scientific numbers for comparison, by the numbers, as to does A or B have the best terminal ballistics. It's all about how much mass gets accelerated to the requisite velocity (physics) and blasted away when the bullet hits the target.
Ballistic gel is good for what it does, but it is hard to actually measure the temporary cavity, by definition. Clay is best for some comparisons because it freezes the result of the physics in time, then you can make exact numerical comparison according to the displaced volume. You can also scale milliliters of clay cavity displacement to joules of energy input from the propellant, for an efficiency ratio. Then ditto with different bullet weights and shapes given identical propellant charges, to again make efficiency comparisons. By the numbers.
I carry the Ruger LCRx 357 Magnum loaded with Hornady Critical Defense 110 grain 38 Special+P or Remington HTP 110 grain 38 special+P. Do you have any experience with these rounds and of so what did you think? Also you might want to check out Attorneys On Retainer. They are an actually law firm and not insurance based.
I carry the LCR 357 Magnum with Hornaday Critical Defense 38 special +P. Similar to your carry gun/ammo.
I have one of those rounds and this hurts my feelings. Luckily it's been so long that I forgot how much money I wasted lol.
Hahahaha that's a good way to view it
I'll debate the Remington Golden Saber rounds. Based on the Lucky Gunner 4 layer denim tests I created an Google sheet that compares all the rounds. The sheet optimized diameter as the largest, penetration at 16" (based on FBI standards of 12-18" but set slightly deeper, also set to avoid overpenetration), and minimally incorporates velocity into the scoring. Golden Saber 147 is 4th on the list for 9mm and 124 +P is 6th. The 147gr actually beats the Federal HST 147gr on the list. Hornady also scored terribly and didnt have enough penetration or expansion for me to continue to consider
Thanks for putting the research in and getting this out there. One thing to add to your list would be hand loaded hollow points. The guys who did my ccw class said it can be turned into a loaded to kill situation and not defense when it comes to court. I'm a fan of carrying critical defense. I've carried Speer gold dot, but only when amo was scarce and Hornaday was impossible to find.
Yeah I've heard that before too but it holds no weight for me. Just like having a defense minded factory the same can be said and even more so You loaded a bullet made fir defense and could easily articulate that you loaded the ammo for consistency and because defensive loads are harder to come by you were being more careful by carrying a round specifically for defense and thereby safer for bystanders because you took the time and care to load a defense only round instead if using fmj. Any decent lawyer would shred the handload argument. But then again some nit free areas in the country are gonna try ti acrew you no matter what
I used carry black talon for duty.. I bought several boxes... but its all too old now! I now carry critical duty and have critical defense in my wife's little. 38. I wonder how well the .38 works!
I really wish Winchester would bring back black talon. I hear the pdx is almost the same just not scary looking or sounding!
@Thomas Baker The defender series and the Ranger t are both the black talon bullet just nonlonger black. The rangers you can find in 50 packs for LE sales defenders only come in 20 packs. In .38 I run the +p critical duty it does exactly as intended out of my 2.5 and 3 inch revolver 9 to 13 inches of penetration no issues with heavy clothing protocol. Not a barrier round but also never claims to be for what it is designed for is my choice for the odd days when I wanna run thw wheel guns
@@unclefreedom213 cool thanks for your post
Good round
BONDED +p golden sabers are one of my preferred hollowpoints that I’ve tested, regular golden sabers I’d stay away from.
The bonded 230gr 45acp +p golden sabers stopped for me at 14” with a nice permanent wound cavity and really nice temporary cavity. Sig 230gr v crown stopped at 12” and opens a tiny bit bigger, but left a mediocre permanent wound cavity.
I need to shoot some 45 bonded sabers haven't done that yet
@@unclefreedom213 I think you will like them. Keep up the good content 👍
The Golden Saber Bonded are a solid performer and pretty much solves all of vanilla Golden Saber's issues, so much so that I really think Remington needs to just retire the standard Golden Sabers and only produce the bonded
Let me tell you about hst that will prove your point and blow your mind! .40 from a glock 23 went through a wall so two layers of drywall and fiberglass insulation. Then on the other side entered a small walk in closet tearing through all types of clothing fabrics. THEN! Exits through the closet door which was a cheap press board type not hardwood. FINALLY it must have lost some ass or nicked something in that door because it tumbled after exiting the closet door and embedded it self a solid 3.5 ft up and 2 inches deep into the homes block after the exit. I couldn't believe it!
I like the Lehigh defense extreme defenders in 9mm and extreme Penetrators in 380. I'm surprised the prosecution doesn't charge you with premeditation just for carrying a gun.
Don't give them any more ideas lol. Thank God they don't
Also yeah I'm super impressed by the lehigh rounds for handgun mainly just a proven performer
Prosecutors pretty much do this every time, unless they are following the woke agenda.
Thirty-five years in law enforcement. Never got into a lethal force incident, but every year each of us went through about a 50 round box of ammo putting down injured deer from car collisions. Ignoring the revolver years, because we were issued wadcutters back then for deer. Once we went to semis ( Glock 22s ) for the remainder of my career we went through a few different types of duty ammo. I always thought that the ammos effectiveness against deer ( averaged out over multiple animals, because no two animals react the same, obviously ) would be a good indicator of how the ammo would work against people. Of the various brands we were issued over those decades, I found that the Silvertips and a couple different generations of the Hydrashok worked best. Occasionally we'd have to use Federal frangible ammo depending on the location, and that worked well enough for what it was. On the negative side, Hornady Critical Duty was a failure in my mind and would often require multiple rounds to put the deer down. I went to the dog and pony show that the Hornady rep did at the range with the ballistic gel, and shooting the Critical Duty ammo into the gel against everyone's current duty ammo, and yeah the Hornady ammo looked pretty in the gel, but in the real world we were having to shoot the animals multiple times with it. It got to the point where I was telling guys that if the backstop allowed for it to just break out the AR and put the animal down with that. The absolute worst was a Winchester subsonic round that for some reason our senior range instructor decided one year that we should try out. I can't recall the actual projectile. That stuff would routinely require multiple rounds to kill the deer. I was so happy that I never had to put that ammo to use against a human adversary.
So well thought out and someone who know what he's talking about because he's actually done the testing to inform his opinions!
I agree with every one on your list and I'll add two more, Barnes XPB and anything from PMC e.g. Starfire. Both are underloaded, so the Barnes expands fine but underpenetrates and the PMC's tend to not expand. Awesome review overall, well done!
For me, the best performing loads in 9mm are always in the 124gr range, the hotter the better i.e. +P or +P+. Speer's Gold Dot, Federal's HST, Golden Saber Bonded, Hornady's Critical Duty, WW Ranger T and Ranger Bonded and even the XTP are all good performers in this range. The newer 147gr JHP's in 9mm are also decent performers, 147gr HST, Ranger Bonded, Ranger T, Golden Saber Bonded and Speer's 147gr Gold Dot. Remington (Federal actually) should just discontinue the unbonded Golden Saber in favour of the Bonded or Black Belt versions.
I have had pretty good luck with the Barnes TAC-XP in +p loading and yeah the Starfire is just terrible. The only issue I take with 147 loadings is that most of the time they are moving so slow that they are right on the threshold for expansion thus running a far greater risk of over penetration. Add in a barrier and they tend to fail since they were so close to not expanding anyway. But if you get a solid +p loading on a solidly well built 147 and that stuff can become a Chef's Kiss. I agree on the Sabres though I have had mixed bag results with the bonded and black belt. Sometimes they are great sometimes they don't work right having said that they are a vast improvement over the normal sabres that shed their jackets if you so much as look at them. Thank you for the kind words.
He might know bullets but he doesnt know shit about self defense and use of force law.
@@Nightfighter82 Who pissed in your cornflakes this morning?
@@unclefreedom213that's why the 147 grains are meant for subcompacts or just shorter barrels. It is indeed slower to give the action more time to clear & also yielding less velocities. There not intended for 4" + barrels for that precise reason.
@@nova68cutie interesting 🤔 I've never heard of that ..I prefer 124 anyway 🤷♂️ its the original grain weight for 9mm Luger +P HST & GOLD DOT are my faves 👌
I am loaded up with Underwood in nearly all my calibers and some Corbon calibers! Good stuff to me!😎🇺🇸🏴☠️🇺🇸🏴☠️🇺🇸🏴☠️🇺🇸🏴☠️🇺🇸
Underwood has done a great job loading stuff optimally
Liberty ammo is the best ammo you can buy. Ballistics don't lie. Go look at the tests by Paul Harrell and others. And for the record CD goes through level 3 armor. The average human body is 8" thick. Most 9mm over penetrates anyway. For concealed carry you can't beat it, because you're usually 3 yards or less.
yeah literally every test I've done and the reason for fbi protocol as well as every ballistician I know that has tested it would disagree with you. You seem very uninformed by what ballistic testing is and why all those numbers we use are important