The (Overdue) Collapse of Stack Overflow
Вставка
- Опубліковано 6 тра 2024
- Stack Overflow and OpenAI made a deal, and it's not good for us. This is the beginning of the end.
You may also like:
▶️ Stack Overflow bans ChatGPT - • Stack Overflow bans Ch...
▶️ Uncovering Stack Overflow's TOXICITY - • Uncovering Stack Overf...
▶️ Visual Studio 2022 on M1 Max | First Look - • Visual Studio 2022 on ...
▶️ My Parallels 17 first impressions | Windows 11 on a Mac - • My Parallels 17 first ...
▶️ M1 MacBook Air Running Visual Studio and Xamarin for Mac - • M1 MacBook Air Running...
Developer productivity Playlist - • Developer Productivity
- - - - - - - - -
❤️ SUBSCRIBE TO MY UA-cam CHANNEL 📺
Click here to subscribe: / @azisk
- - - - - - - - -
Join this channel to get access to perks:
/ @azisk
- - - - - - - - -
📱LET'S CONNECT ON TWITTER: / digitalix
#chatgpt #softwaredevelopment #stackoverflow - Наука та технологія
"Duplicate question, Prashanth. Move on." 😂
Now I got it 😂
that was an epic response.
At least ChatGPT isn't condescending when someone asks basic questions.
That's exactly it, the awful anti-social behavior of all these people is now their end.
“No you dumbass the library isn’t meant to be used this way you’re supposed to use the wx247soqprufn38563 library extension blah blah then code this whole dang code blah blah and that’s done. It was so easy. 10 downvotes from me”
The actual point is that Stack is the community. If the community leaves, Stack will die a slow death...
Yep, currently ChatGPT has been trained, but that data is already becoming out of date. Stackoverflow does have some value to offer OpenAI here… IF real users keep feeding it with content for someone’s LLM to digest.
If everyone on the web blocked LLMs then they’ll get stagnant and hallucinate more.
I can see the backlash but it depends if it happens before LLMs get to a standard when they can give better answers than a human expert (arguably already passed that point for lots of uses but I still don’t think we have for troubleshooting code).
King's dead. Hail to the King!
Or a new, not as unbearably toxic, community will finally have a chance to grow.
Think of it like a healthy forest fire!
@@chistinelane Im making Q&A website. Hope is my chance now to grow.
I searched for a question about an UNIX Extended Regular Expression issue. It was marked as duplicate. Then I read the suposely "original question", and I find that it was about a Perl regular expresion, not UNIX ERE.
Stack Overflow reached peak stupidity.
To which Stack Overflow responds, "You think that's my peak?!?! Hold my beer!" 🙂
thats stupid
Lol, that is the most Stack Overflow thing I have ever heard
I once got my answer post blocked and then the thread locked IIRC. Not because it was wrong mind you but because some dude decided I can’t post after a certain amount of time it was created. Never posted anything on stackoverflow after that yet.
Stack overflow or also known as „duplicate question“
I still have yet to figure out how to properly post a question. I am a brand new programmer and was excited to try stackoverflow. I figured it would be super welcoming, but both of my questions were removed within 5-10 minutes by guys who seem to never log off. One was about errors in my physics collision, and in a few minutes it was gone with all of the code crossed out. I figured I just gave too much context and refined it to only the two functions handling the physics response. It appears it will never be reopened.
The other was a lot earlier in my education where I asked if there was another way to write the code, and basically asked if there was a more efficient way to write it. closed in minutes.
After looking at the accounts of the 3 people that closed the collision question, they have more posts edited than I thought possible. Stackoverflow from my brief usecase seems to be infiltrated with point whores who remove questions if they feel like its a question they can't or don't want to answer. Anyways, I just use AI, google, and discord and they don't have an ego about how "right" my question is.
The moderators there are nasty. All of StackExchange.
The site is teething to stop people using it as free debugging or free tutorials for newbies and want to be a site for genuine technical questions.
@@xpusostomos hmm
UA-camrs like you are the new StackOverflow and much better than any IA!! Keep making great content. Thanks, Alex!! 🙌
Wow thanks! And pleased check the rules of posting duplicate comments before you post 😝
And AI will soon be the new UA-camrs. Hakuma matata.
The Stack Overflow data would not be as useful to the AI companies if it contained AI results. The no AI rule is entirely consistent with making a deal with OpenAI.
Stuff like "Thanks for the feedback! You need at least 15 reputation to cast a vote, but your feedback has been recorded." when I try to vote on a post or answer is a biggest reason I just don't actively participate on Stack Overflow. The idea that they gate off even voting is just obnoxious. I don't respond kindly to those sorts of incentives.
right, you can't even say something positive there
Goodbye Stack Overflow. Don’t let the door hit you on your way out
"If you don't pay for the service, you're the product."
Unpopular opinion but if I get free good service i don't mind being the product.
There is going to be an inflection point where coding assistants can't keep up with new technology and support for new technology has to come from actual humans, thus necessitating forums like StackOverflow
huh?
@@neildutoit5177 what are you confused about?
@@neildutoit5177 AI answers questions and makes suggestion based on existing trained data. Tomorrow a new language or platform comes along, if people are depending on the AI assistant for answers and there's no public data available the assistant will fail. The original data itself has to come from humans.
Maybe yes, maybe no. If AI models are trained against actual from the source documentation and are retrained frequently enough, theoretically you won't need humans to interpret the source documentation on things to know how to code. But time will tell.
@@cmoullasnet is this correct time to make the documentation harder to read ?
The problem with Stack Overflow is, there is a lot of knowledge, but sometimes, they're just not friendly. Now, there is an alternative, so guess what, all those people that needed help but got shouted at, they're gone forever. Since no one is paying the people sharing knowledge on SO, they're not going to change, nor do (or should) they care about what happens with SO. I don't see a bright future for SO.
That became especially apparent when ChatGPT was released, able to answer 90% of questions people went to StackOverflow... While being well-mannered.
....Stack Overflow?? That is sooo Intel Mac!
Stack Overflow has been invaluable of the years. Unfortunately it's time has come and will go the way of CD's and cassette tapes. But it will always have a place in my heart for all the times it has helped solved crazy hard issues I had to overcome. Still LOVE YOU STACK OVERFLOW!
We hang out here of course! :)
well, if you ask a question, must be The Question... Otherwise, a bunch of know it all come to tell you that you should not ask questions. Go search, whatever that means... But sure, you did not search at all. It is way faster posting a question in a forum and wait for a good person to answer to you, in a day or maybe several...
The exploitation of freely offered information via the internet should anger everybody. In the end, what is happening is a small group of rich people getting ever richer by not paying the masses.
Huh? Providing the place where that information is aggregated is not free and it's not a hobby. It's a full time job. There's nothing wrong with a team of people making money doing it.
@BTrain-is8ch While not paying those who created the original content on which their models were trained? Yeah, sure, sounds fair 🤔
@@jamieamc They chose to contribute their content freely. If you don’t want your content used by other people stop giving it away for internet points.
@jamieamc The owners of Stackoverflow got paid on advertising. The free contributors did not get paid.
In the words of Chris Nolan's Joker, "If you are good at something, never do it for free"
Do you understand the concept of free information?
A couple months back I don't know what coding is, now I coded top notch ocr and image recognition bot. I'm so happy we are here.
Stack overflow stopped me from asking questions because my questions "need improvment" all I did was ask a question about Notion's API.
But was it a stupid question, or a question like, I'm too lazy to look at the documentation, someone do it for me?
@@xpusostomos no as a matter of fact I looked over the documentation dozens of times. Stack overflow and forums in general are always a last resort for me when troubleshooting, idk why ppl rlly think people are going to forums the moment they have an issue
@@xpusostomosthe fact that you immediate went off with the toxicity is why AI will dominate the coding scene, if it can't be said to already.
This guy was just looking for some human to human empathy, some understanding, and you abused that.
No he doesn't need to learn how to ask questions. You need to learn to be a fucking human, and it's hilarious and pathetic that a robot is beating you at that.
Good riddance to you, and all of your ilk.
@@xpusostomos no wonder is going down the drain lol
The problem is the LLMs generate bogus.
Good riddance to bad rubbish. We all need stackoverflow like we need a hole in our head. I gave up on that toxic site eons ago because of the over zealous power crazed admins that are thankfully surplus to requirements now
I'd like to point out that that policy was enacted by community moderators, not the company itself. What's particularly ethically dubious about the relationship between StackOverflow and OpenAI is that StackOverflow declared that LLMs ingesting its content violated the ToS because contributors were not properly attributed. The 'solution' to this, somehow, was that StackOverflow is just paid a bunch of money. The contributors are still left unpaid and unattributed.
I'm guessing that the ToS are different for contributors than consumers, therefore they're within their rights.
@@xpusostomos No, this only concerns the licensing, not ToS. Contributors have licensed their contributions under a license that *requires* attribution. Whether a company pays SO or not has no bearing on it
Stackoverflow was bought by Prosus in 2021 (a big investment group). They are toasted... founders cashed out so not it's in "optimization MBA management" phase.
It was bad as far back as 2014. I haven’t participated there since 2016. I can only imagine how bad it is now?!
gave up years ago. constant downvotes without reasons. if you dont ask.a question you get deleted. And Swift questions were full of junk answers from swift 2,3,4
I still use both coding AIs and StackOverflow. They have different issues and annoyances that often don't overlap so when I can't find the answer using one method I often can using the other.
You are a rare and dying breed to even consider SO these days lol 🦄
❤
Loved the phone call 😆
ofcourse stack overflow wants to ban LLM based data on their site, because the models don't do so good when trained on data generated by a model. that also could be one thing why openai needs the partnership to keep bringing in new data without attracting more lawsuits
This partnership reminds me the partnership Sybase and Microsoft had when Sybase was a big leader in database. Who knows now that the first SQL server database was a Sybase SQL server and not a Microsoft. Microsoft part with Sybase as soon they had build a mature database engine
Huh, what? The first SQL server was Ingres.
@@xpusostomos I didn't say first RDBMS. I said the first database system named called SQL server
well OpenAI might be returning an interfase for Stackoverflow for search and solve problems from the trained data. OpenAI might have swallowed and digested all Stackoverflow stuff but that is a short lived thing. We need the community to keep on feeding the knowledge base. OpenAI does not have the means to find the issues and solve them by itself. Many issues on Stackoverflow come from solving undocumented problems
Phooey on A.I. Use it or lose it, folks; it’s your brain at stake here. 😢
Ah, true... I havent been there for about a year... Lol, how fast I forgot about StackOverflow...
So ChatGPT is going to start telling me I'm an idiot for asking stupid questions and I should learn how to use Google?
I still use SO daily, only very rarely any AI.
LLMs have knowledge cutoffs. Where are people going to ask questions about the next latest framework?
LLM's will analyze source code and docs in the same way as people do.
TBH I never trusted stack overflow, I didn't expect this but I thought they would end up putting services behind a paywall or something. I guess in a roundabout way they did.
"You're question is opiniated so we're removing it"
Stack Overflow is dead!
Official documentations got a lot better is the recent years. A lot of projects have chats for issues and questions. The need for SO is less important nowadays
I'm already out of that toxic relationship with SO
At this point, I can't help it, but get philosophical about things. It feels like us developers who contribute to the great developer community for mere joy and recognition with each other, are being worked as "worker bees for the queen(s)". These guys basically charge us (openAI, AI chat service providers) and now stackoverflow is making us do the real work. And who knows all of our public and possibly private github repos are being used to train the AI models. For Reddit, at least they compensated the community members a little, but I am not sure if Stackoverflow nor OpenAI will ever do that.
It's called "rent seeking" in economics and it's what every business tries to do. And it's always been the case. From what universities choose to research to the frameworks that become popular to the use of public data in training AI to regulations that protect monopolies, it's all about extracting value without reciprocal productivity. There's a lot of idealists in software development, but we're all ultimately working for big tech and always have been.
One pesky detail that is being downplayed is that when Stack Overflow dies, so does the material (over time) to feed into the very thing people are leaving for. I'm no fan of the personality challenged adventure that defines SO, but I good ol ChatGPT and others do not benefit from the death of Stack. Good videos, Alex.
Stack overflow are gonna add ai to their website as part of the deal. Likely OpenAI are paying them in tokens.
How Stack Overflow uses AI to throttle back narcissistic and sanctimonious users. I’ll never forget having someone else modify my question because they thought it wasn’t worded right. Unbelievable…
I liked blockbuster, too. In fact I cannot understand how in the world they crashed 🧐
I don't like the way OpenAI and the other AI companies have been stealing data, but it's also shitty that Stack would sell access to their user generated content. In the AI space, it always seems like its the people trying to share what they have made are the ones getting screwed.
Is it stealing data when it's available to the public on the internet?
@@vanish5499 I would say yes. People have been posting on sites like Stack for years in an effort to help other people. Their intention was not to provide free training data for AI companies. They are taking other peoples work to build their models then selling access to them, profiting from someone else's work without permission or compensation. How is that not stealing?
is it stealing from google
I'm afraid SO already jumped the shark, regardless of the AI topic.
The way they’re treating their users LATELY?
Oh no... so they want to make ChatGPT act like stackoverflow when I ask a simple question and ban me for 3 days because the same question already asked before by someone!@!!
rip S-O, I've copied pasted so much code from your website without even bothering to read the technical solution
Nooooooo! How am I going to learn new Vim tips and tricks now?
I have to admit that I use the free chat GPT version and haven’t need to use stack overflow in a while.
As long as llms don’t train on other AIs. They will progress.
I hope that stackoverflow stays. I use it much more than ChatGPT...
Most of the times chatgpt fails to answer problems whom solutions are available on stack overflow because we can see the context there.
yea, and gets it things wrong
I have turned to the different AI models for coding help. Most of the time they are correct but not always. At least I don't get the typical snarky remarks that Stack Overflow many times give you...
I think the cleverness behind Stackoverflow will defeat that's behind AI. AI's efficiency coefficient will never reach 1. With all the new topics being evolved, the curve of AI providing the solution to developers will always stay behind Stackoverflow. It happened that I experienced complicated answers from ChatGPT that didn't resolve my quest or was not taking something like performance or code maintainability into considerations.
claude and other LLMs are pretty powerfull , i use to ask question on stackoverflow and mostly their so called community admin use to downvote , even shadow ban u for asking genuine question. At least these LLMs aren't judging me.
Most people in the comment hating on SO don't really understand what the purpose of SO is.
It's not a free debuggin platform, you don't go there when you have a problem in your code at 3am, hoping someone will fix it for you in 5 minutes.
you can’t have ai posting to something that ai reads
If stackoverflow does not ban AI generated answers from their site, their data would not be viable any more to train AI. As AI training AI leads to disastrous results. There is the danger already that source code repositories like github will be poisened by AI generated code, making them no longer viable for training.So it may be in the interest of OpenAI, MS and Google to keep stackoverflow and such up and running.
There are too many trolls on Stack nowadays, the best answers get down voted by people that are 2 years out of date on the latest versions of languages and its just not a nice place to hang out any more. Using Ollama and training my own models is a much better use of my time :)
I never managed to get enough points to post. I tried my best to contribute. But eventually I just said fuck it - since I can't give-back I'll take without giving-back.
AI UA-cam channel are coming soon - Best Macbook comparisons ever:
you need to step up the game
AI UA-cam Channels are already here.
It is easy to tell an AI Channel from a real person.
AAi voices are awful at pronunciation that is how you can tell.
Chat GPT is awful at coding anything but the most basic things and even then it gets things wrong. Stack overflow is toxic but sites like that aren’t going away. TheseLLMs would be far worse without them.
To a noob stack overflow comes across as elitist, unhelpful and inhospitable. As a hobbyist coder in bash and python, before Chat GPT I would use Google and would usually end up on Stack overflow for responses. The few times I did write a question there I was met with "Duplicate question" and nothing more or once I got an 1 line answer with no explanation as to what the provided coded was doing. How am I supposed to learn from that?
With Chat GPT I get code and explanations, which I can ask for further clarification on if required.
Now I still use Google when stuck and still Stack Overflow is usually the top site returned. But if I cannot find an answer that I understand I will never post on Stack Overflow again and will always go to Chat GPT for help.
SO's impact on openai is minimal in my opinion. I wouldn't be surprised if its weighted 0.000001% compared to other sources. You can get lots more value scraping documentation and readme files.
StackOverflow was always filled with self-righteous pricks, but never as bad as Reddit.
hehe, Duplicate quetion 😄
Question Off Topic. 😁
@@k.chriscaldwell4141 😄
Something I have noticed latelly is that the code provided by OpenAI and ChatGPT is pure garbage. My theory is that many SO zealots have been attacking the AI's with faulty content.
Even simple code nowadays is just unusable garbage.
actually, stack overflow is already dead
They could just reject Ai , and charge them
Like the arrogant Greek empire, their own hubris lead to their downfall. History repeating itself via Stackoverflow.
what about Quora? During the firing of Sam Altman there was Quora CEO Adam D’Angelo on the OpenAI board.
SEO friendly Stackoverflow mirror? Lol
AI is taking SO solutions and leaving out the "culture" and "community" they have over there. I don't know about you, but I call that a win.
Much as I'm personally pissed-off with Stack Overflow, the issue seems obvious to me:
- Let's say there's some problem in Windows which Users discuss in Stack Overflow, OpenAI gets the solution from the aggregate of User posts on the topic, and feeds it to Users. ChatGPT isn't going to test Windows itself in a million scenarios and work out the answer, is it? It needs a real source of on-going, updated data.
- And as for AI posts... it they were allowed there would be a loop where OpenAI ends-up using ChatGPT output as its training data. Not ideal!
So I can perfectly see why it's in both OpenAI's interests and Stack Overflow's interests.
I actually still like using Stack Overflow, but I can't cope with the moderation style and rules that have been established in recent years. Stack Overflow has a lot to answer for itself.
Happens a lot once a company gets "acquired" by some IB shmucks.
is like reddit
Yikes. I just deleted my accounts after years of contributions.
No more.
I feel kina happy that stackovflow is getting loose its status, I always feel that it is so closed, strict, stubborn society
So ChatGPT is going to learn to be rude and not helpful, plus demanding that I upvote a solution, even though it is not correct? 😉 Stack Overflow is a toxic hellstew and deserves its fate.
🤣
This may explain why super(l)user and expert-sex-change are rude to me. Oh wait. That's the normal model of 'up vote' drive-by help and down vote direct answers to questions.
As I am learning Angular , i know how bad the free LLMs are , stack overflow is much better ...
The good thing about this is people should go and read the fcuking documentation instead and stop searching to copy and paste from SO 😂
Much hate there
SE/SO brings it out of us.
still use stackoverflow, its useful but could be better.
What is stack overflow?
Especially user cant delete their question lol which is stupid
ChatGPT gains most of its programming reasoning from SA and in case of going down LLM models coding reasoning will degrade
It makes sense to charge any AI companies for using data on the internet, in this case, Stack Overflow. I'm not running my server to let you copy it and resell it, destroying my business. AI is a new thing, and a lot of laws should be made to protect businesses.
hmm, how does that work? If i create a website like So, they be taking my data ,i should charge Ai companies
This is so bad, right? F***d up.
And I think, software engineers and coders will still contribute to StackOverflow for free, though they know very well that they are indirectly training LLMs that is heavily commercialised.
I am thinking this will happen, because the same thing is happening with Reddit as well. As well as Linux for a long time. Some people (most people actually) stay back and keep contributing to the same product/service, irrespective of the indirect commercialisation, since they didn’t care about the benefits/profits in the first place.
I know these were expected and anyway would have eventually happened (I am talking about making money with trained LLMs from public contributions).
Of course, this is an advancement of technology/science - the issue is, this advancement requires huge compute power and lots of data. This is almost impossible to be owned/controlled by common man, just like what had happened countless times before in our history - Capitalism wins. This time, I am not sure of the level of impact to the society in general, as future GenAI capabilities is hugely overstated by the likes of Sam Altman and others because of obvious reasons.
What do you think?
Good.... They are so obnoxious and elitist!
I think LLMs will continuously need to scrap very high quality answers like the ones provided on StackOverflow. I mean in terms of new content Q/A generated for new problems with new languanges/technologies, etc. So it’s more a win win game in my opinion.
Stack overflow is complete garbage. The community is so toxic.
explain why is toxic
We need to demand that every member of Congress support creation of a new law ordering the destruction of any AI and/or LLM that has ingested or been trained on or otherwise optimized by the use of copyrighted works. Any member of Congress who refuses to support such a law must be voted out of office.
Duplicated video
😆
30 views in 1 minute? Alex fell off😔
Chatgpt is smarter than the avg so user. And it's not rude. It's dumber than the smart users, but they won't see your questions anyway or don't bother to answer.
I don't see the issue. In the end its their data, it hurts that your anwsers being used to improve AI?