How much energy do you lose when charging your EV?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
- Become a member for exclusive and early content and behind the
scene info:
/ @batterylife
If you want to support the Channel
/ batterylifeev
paypal.me/batte...
My music in my videos is available at Epidemic sound
Referral link:
www.epidemicso...
Our Id.3 Prebookers Europe Facebook group
/ 514077975814912
Links to my spreadsheets of the cars tested:
Charge Curve Comparison
docs.google.co...
Charging Curve
docs.google.co...
EV Consumption
docs.google.co...
Take care
This man is a working-class hero, he's really cool.
@A M he makes jack working in a little depot, he's hard working and trying to make a difference to his life, maybe when your an adult you'll understand the difference.
During AC charging, several computers in the car are turned on and they have a fixed consumption of around 300W.
So the longer time it takes to charge, the more energy will be used for this fixed base load.
If charging takes 14 hours, this uses 4.2 kWh of additional energy. If charging takes 3 hours, this uses only 0.9 kWh of additional energy.
The losses in the battery are lower when you charge slower. These losses cause battery self-heating.
Are you sure that the computers are only on when charging AC but not DC?
@@BatteryLife They are ON in both cases. Sorry for the confusion. But their contribution to the overall efficiency is more noticeable with AC charging, because it takes so much longer. Especially at 2.3 kW. The battery losses due to self-heating from the passing current are the lowest at 2.3 kW.
@@danielardelian2 IONIC 5 fixed consuption is less than 100W. They made it so it can charge from the solar panel on top. It's a pitty other manufacturers does not reduce condumtpion. The BMS sureley does not use that much power. I guess they just start all the car controllers and don't implement a separate charge only feature mode to save costs in R&D.
@@mjk8019 Well, the MEB platform and the ID cars were a bit rushed to the market because competition was gaining momentum.
If our nissan leaf is charging….only the modules which are necessary are on. Leafspy shows 100w.
It’s likely that the Ionian charger charges you for the DC delivered but actually loses power in the AC to DC transformation and that that loss is covered by Ionity.
Interesting tests though and a clear indicator that a home wall-box charger should be a good investment. It not only saves time, but also reduces losses.
Excellent video, also liked the different perspectives. Thanks! So Wallbox for the win. 👍
I like the video. As mentioned before the higher losses with 2 kw charging are most likely caused by onboard electronics. Fo my Leaf I typically see losses of around 15% for 2 kw charging and 12% for 3,6 kw at a wallbox. Leaf can be charged only with 1 phase so 3,6 kW at a 11 kw Wallbox. DcC charging shows losses in the range of 6,5 - 8%. This fits quite well with your data
Very good video and research, thank you. Saving this video for future references
Many thanks for this video. Have you done any testing in the winter? I have a new Kia Niro EV. I charged it for 2 hours overnight. Put 15kw into the car from a 7.7kw wall box. But that car only took in 10kw, so I lost 5kw. It was -3c outside, so I’m thinking a lot was due to this. But that is a massive loss of efficiency. Perhaps I will experiment by putting the car in the garage tonight.
Yes, many videos in the winter
Amazing job. Thank you
Great video with great comparison. No surprises though but very interesting.
Hey man, I have just ordered an id3 family pro plus. Thanks for all the id3 content, it has really helped make my decision!
It's nice to have a heated garage as there is no charging loss during winter.
Our dear Nachbarn and energy policy... You truly have to be german if you think that's a great deal :-)
The slower you charge, the higher the losses with AC charging. This has largely to do with the AC/DC converter in the car. This itself has a base load when converting from AC to DC. This is independent of the charging power. If you now charge with a low charging power, then you need more time to fully charge the battery. The share of the energy required for the AC/DC converter in the total charged energy is then greater. Example: The AC/DC converter itself requires 500W. For a charge of 10 hours, an additional 5kWh are consumed. If you now only need 5 hours for charging due to a higher charging power, then only 2.5kWh are additionally consumed.
The problem is that the whole car is powered. The charger "base load" is very small compared to the rest of the car.
I loose 350-400W (conversion loss) when charging with 3.6 AC at home. EVNotify never goes above 3.25 kWh "juice-delivered-to-car", so 9% loss @3.6 charging
@@steensuurballe4851 Which EV is that?
@@salipander6570 ID.3 58 kWh
Really interesting to watch, would be interesting seeing a 10-80 and also to repeat these to see if you get the same results on average.
The last 2 look out as the conversion is done before they charge you you'd hope, they are billing DC charge, so given they both output almost identical loads, the differences don't really make sense
Thank you so much for your ID3 videos. Thanks to you I decide to buy an ID3 pro, which I will get at December! And I think I will install a 5,5 Kw wallbox too! A big hug from Mallorca, Spain
3:25 - Heh, you have the same kind of old electromechanical energy meter as I do - they have not changed for the better part of a century. Also, I see that it has only one counter - is your power plan "flat", with no cheaper off-peak energy?
5:20 - Ouch, that _is_ a lot! Our (Croatia) flat tariff electricity price is about 8 cents per kWh, and can be as low as half of that off-peak in the most "aggressive" plans.
Same price all day.
Excellent video! Thanks!
I need to do the same test with mi Leaf)
Interesting, thanks. I like your number plate. Did you really only pay 301€ for Walter. 😂 0.25€ per kWh in Germany? That's expensive, I Only pay 0.10€ in France, standard rate..
The standart price in Germany rigjt now is 32ct...
@@lukasgescholowitz you guys burn too much coal.
@@justinholding02 not me, since 7 years im doing against coal. But even our Greens semms are loving more coal then gas...
@timemachine_194 30% coal is not much or ehat did u mean?
I have tested charging my MY2020 ID3 Pro (v2.3) with the VW granny charger at home 1,5 weeks ago, with a 20 meter cable in between (rated for 3,7 kW) and calculated that the efficiency was approx 95%. So not almost 20% loss, but only 5%. I charged it from 34% to 53% SoC and I measured the amount of kWh from the socket (so consumption included the extension cable).
How do you calculate that?
@@BatteryLife
Start 34% SoC: 1674,2 on kWh meter
End 53% SoC: 1685,4 on kWh meter
11,2 kWh consumption according to the digital kWh meter
19% x 56 kWh = 10,64kWh
Efficiency 95%
My ID3 has done about 10.000 km and I almost never use a fast charger, so I guess 4% loss and therefore 56 kWh netto capacity left seems reasonable to me.
@@FlowDesign82 Your example is not accurate. First of all, calculating for a smaller and random range (like your 34% to 53%) introduces higher rounding error compared to what @BatteryLife did. This is because 34% on display can be from 33,01 to 34 and 53 from 52,01 to 53. So in the worst case scenario, a 34 to 53 can be anything from 18,01% to 19,99%. This is almost +/-5% rounding error at maximum, while on 50-100 range the rounding error can be at maximum 2%. The way @BatteryLife did the test, includes 0% rounding error, because he first allows car to charge at 50%, so it is exactlly 50%, then charges to 100%, which is again exactly 100%.
Secondly, your ID.3 at 10.000km does not have 0-100 display SOC of 56KWh. This is when new - and actually a bit less, around 55,75 KWh. The part missing from 58KWh is the below zero buffer. For 10000 km you could be around 54,8-55,2 KWh for 0-100.
My calculations, accompanied by data from OBD2 and Car Scanner Pro, show the same as @BatteryLife showed. Around 19% loss when charging with granny charger.
@@malakudi Well, maybe using a OBD2 tool will provide more accuracy, but you're forgetting one major thing here. Most EV's will in reality charge MORE than 100% SoC. So when you think you have charged to 100%, it actually charger more like 103% or more. So if you would rerun your test and charge from say 40% to 90%, then it would be more accurate.
I own the Mercedes EQA. Haven't tried fast chargers yet but my observations of 2,2kW (single phase) vs. 7,5kW (3 phase) are similar to yours. I think this is the matter of charging time as the pumps an cooling/heating circuitry work longer in case of very slow charging. Nice material, keep going!
Chris, That was a very useful experiment and done quite throughly as well.
Thank you for the excellent content.
Very interesting and helpful. Makes sense that DC is more efficient when presented like this.
A point about Ionity price though, surely you should apportion some of the €10 per month membership fee to each charge as without that your kWh price is much higher? Its still a cost, just one a lot of EV folks overlook as they are so used to paying these fees. I have the 'free' Ionity plan with my ID.4 with kWh price of 46 pence, so maybe a fairer cost comparison?
Hello Battery Life, do you know how high the loss is when charged by an wallbox with 3,7kW? (I use only one phase with my PV to better control the solar power). The reason for the question is to know if it is better to charge my e-Golf with 2x16A (7,4kW) instead of 1x16A (3,7kW) in the cold season, thanks.
Sorry No.
Great work and thank you 🙂👍
Very good video. Thank you
Very good video Chris! I’m considering buying an ID.3 myself. How do you find the seats on long trip? Thanks in advance.
I like them, my short dife hates them.
Great video. Higher losses at lower rates make sense due to charging overhead losses remaining the same but the charging time going down with higher rates
Cool. I had almost the same on my Model 3. On the 250 KW SuC I hat 4,2%...
Realize you did the 2.3 charge at home. Wonder IF the 2.3 unit was 50-100% where the unit was not plugged into the extension cord. Example: when you plugged the unit in at the outlet at work. Would the charge loss still be 19-20%? With the level 1 charger for us using 120V single phase on a 15amp circuit, IF you add an extension cord between the outlet & the EVSE unit, the draw is too great & pops the breaker (i.e. there is resistance & efficiency lost).
I measured at the socket in the garage. And only when charging 50 to 100%. Not before, not after.
Great job and very interesting. Thanks a lot for your effort.
Interesting! I thought it was the other way around! Have to amp up my home charger now! 😊
I thought voltage had something to do with it.
Why not write a column on the table for volts?
The Porsche something or other, charges with 800 volts because the higher voltage produces less heat and you can charge faster.
Except for 2,3 kW which was 230V, rest was battery voltage 430 to 459V
Very good and informative video. Keep it up!
I made a test regarding the subject ua-cam.com/video/XTF4hPE-eCw/v-deo.html, but your results different from mine :)
Also based on my observations with my car, it doesn't matter if you charge from 20-50, or 70-80, loss percentage is the same.
You mentioned battery temperature, you have some obd soft (e.g. Obdeleven or vcds) you should be able to get the battery kWh meter data
Only have option of granny charger as I rent and had to pay for electrician to put in a 16A outlet cost me $800. It works as my battery is only 28kWh anyway, like a mobile phone plug in and let it charge overnight.
1 phase AC the maximum power is 3.45 or 7 kWh?
2,3 kW on Schuko, 3,6kW on a blue plug
I think that it is clear that charging has to obey physics and that therefore Fast charging including cooling must have higher loss. Looking at your results at IONITY I assume that IONITY pays for those huge losses. In general it is more environmentally friendly to charge at 11kW AC (or maybe 20 kW on DC).
Like I said in the video, when I was charging at Ionity, it was colder and from 50 to 100% battery cooling did not activate.
From 5 to 80% with higher charging power Ionity will have a way higher charging loss.
oh boy. balancing near 100% ruins the data.
Id.3 does not balance. 21 kW up to 100%
@@BatteryLife really?! I didn't find any information from VW. Thought it was just the standard passive balancing (which might be cut off on higher kW charging rate)
Doesn't influence the outcome of this test. Granny charging is to be avoided; the rest depends on prices and situation. It is worth to install a wallbox to a solid, separate 16A group at least, or better 3x16A if your car supports 3-phase. (In the UK/US that would be 1 phase 32A).
Thanks for doing these kind of measurements and video. Looks like 3-phase charging is more efficient than 1-phase charging.
He hasn't tested 7.4kW charging. I have that one at home and my ID.3 charges at 43km/h. Unfortunatleey I don't have a meter to measure that as my power meter is digital and only measures hour by hour differences. So it could be that one phase charging at 7.4 is most efficent as well.
3 phase charging is not more efficient per se. Charging with more power is more efficient. Charging with single phase 16A is about same efficient than charging 3phase with 6A.
@@peter11102 To add to this: The higher the current per phase, the better. Each AC phase of the onboard charger consumes some power of its own, so it is better to charge 1-phase 7 kW than 3-phase 7 kW which can happen due to load balancing with other equipment at home. But the difference is small, so don't be afraid to use 3-phase all the time.
@@salipander6570 good to know. Where do you know? Is there a schematic out there? Or is it just common to do it like that?
Did you check, if its a diffrence between 1 ph or 3 ph?
When does the id.3 do its Balancing. Maybe the granny did do some extra work and it is not so bad at all?
The 3% diffrence between ionity and 50kW does not make sense…or the ionitys are more efficent.
There is no difference in 1phase and 3phase. The ID.3 has simply a base load of about 0.3kW independent of 1ph or 3phase or DC charging. The lower the charging power the more this base load is contributing as loss.
@@peter11102 300W is a lot. Did VW publish a efficeny curve from the charger?
@@susihormon7821 I don't know if VW published a efficiency curve. The 300W are measured by myself with EV-notify and go-e charger. This is the same consumption of the car when it is on, so the charger does not consume very much.
Question about ID 3 vs 4. In Canada we only get the ID 4 PRO or AWD PRO with the 77 KWH battery. What is price difference in Germany between similarly priced ID 3 & 4. Thank you in advance.
Id 4 pro does cost around min. 4.000€ more then id3.
would be very interesting to see all losses in ev's over a year. preheating of battery, heatloss when driving, vampire drain, chargingloss etc. and also if possible see the accumulated gains from regenenerative breaking over a year.
Very informative and usefull. 👍
You should test from 10% to 20 %, 20 to 30 % ... ending at 90-100%. Then you can see/document the how significant the loss differance is at differant states of charge. My gut feeling is that charging to 80% or 90% is the optimal
That doesn't matter much for the purpose of this test: to see which charging 'style' is better.
Please do the math more seriously and put all the costs / expenses into the equation cause then your 7,30 or 7,40€ winner of 5,5 / 11 kW home charging becomes more or less a looser with over 10€ as the ionity fast charger too or what does a 10€ monthly fee plan means for your charging example !
100 kWh per month would mean 10 cent per kWh charged and 200 kWh still 5 Cent or here with 28 kWh just 1,50€ on top of the 8,42€ bill , so close to 10 €.
Please add the cost of the portable charger itself and creating the line and facility to the comparison to be on the right side. Easily 1000€ installation and 1000€ portable charger would mean to write off 200€ per year if you write off over 10 years.
If your ID.3 has a 250 Wh base line consumption when turned on then you have a difference of 10 hours which would mean 2,5 kWh more losses to run the car during these 10 more hours the car is turned on.
Part of the game, but you save a lot cause such mobile charger will be dead in 10 years for sure cause inverters do not run endlessly, at least those for solar roofs. 200€ and 2000 kWh charged at home would mean 0,10€/kWh more for your 5,5 kWh fast charging solution at home.
29,6 kWh would then mean 7,40€ plus 2,96 = 10,36€
If you believe that this portable charger and the cable and installation will last 20 years then it will be a 7,40€ plus 1,48€ = 8,88€ bill which is again a lot higher than the 8,13€ bill of the 2,3 kw charger.
But: the e-Golf with over 250.000 km (first generation) had a degredation of less than 20% charged with just 2,3 kW.
It will pay off to charge slow, but the math needs more precision as ionity charging for 30 cents needs a monthly 10€ fee you have to add into the usual equation. If you charge 100 kWh monthly at ionity then you need to add 10 cent per kWh or 2,80€ on your 8,42€ bill which would mean 11,22€
This spreadsheet is ignoring far too much to blame the greanny charger for being worse - even though it is the best of battery degredation - at least for those that have a long time experience with Li Ion batteries in the solar power industry where they look for low charging and discharging rates.
Maybe the 2,3 kW charger is not that big crap but the oversimplified spreadsheet model ignoring all the details mentioned cause where are those 10€ monthly in the equation? I can see 28,07 kWh x 0,30€ / kWh = 8,42 €
How often do you charge that way - 2 or 3 or 4 times a month then add 5€ or 3,33€ or 2,50€ per charge but even with 6 such 28 kWh charges it would still mean 1,66€ on top and over 10€
Can not be so complicated to add the real world figures to the sheet to get a serious result - at least regarding the money to pay. We charge usually or 95% of the time just slow with 2,3 kW and the battery loves it.
I do not pay the 10€ yet. It starts in Dec. So right now these are the prices I had to pay during those charging sessions.
THIS is not about charging cost but on LOSS !
Can someone explain, why colder battery has more resistance as Chris mentioned ? Thanks
Physics ;)
Chemistry ;)
Vodoo ;)
Just kidding. Reduced ion mobility when cold
Batteries are like women. When they are cold, there is more friction.
have you measured the vampire drain?
Very little on ID3.
I loose 350-400W (conversion loss) when charging with 3.6 AC at home. EVNotify never goes above 3.25 kWh "juice-delivered-to-car", so 9% loss @3.6 charging
How do you know the socket is really taking 3,6 kW?
@@BatteryLifeMy deltaco ev-1225 cable has a 16A setting, and I have a special 16A home-wiring. But you are correct I cant be 112% sure that it takes 16A (3.6 kWh) but it should be "close-enough"
@@BatteryLife Hi again. with 10A setting EVNotify never shows "juice-delivered-to-car" above 1.91kWh , so here i have approx 17% loss
I would measure it at the socket. My 2,3 kW home charger, also only charges with 2100W.
Very interesting video 👍 thanks ☺️
I think so that the best for the battery is the slowest charging... So I am using like 8 amps every day! (In Greece electricity is cheaper during the night 0.10€/kWh)