2021 Volkswagen ID.4: Battery Teardown
Вставка
- Опубліковано 26 вер 2024
- Munro & Associates is currently working on a teardown of a Volkswagen ID.4 battery pack, and partnering up with SABIC to develop a pack that is constructed out of thermoplastics.
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Outro:
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#Volkswagen #battery #ID4
Thank you for using Kilograms and not Pounds.
No problem!
Smart people use the Metric system ;-)
@@ADOENDRA It's universal. But the 50 kg lighter TMY battery pack than ID.4 I did not find... Do the math
@@ADOENDRA It's more accurate than the imperial system. Metric is measurement and Kilograms are weight.
@@radicalrick9587 So kilograms are not metric? ;-) So all of my life I have used the wrong system.....
The MY battery is 170Wh/kg, the ID.4 Battery is 167Wh/kg. So despite VW having created the much heavier shielded, by far more modular and robust design and according to Tesla fanboys are lacking oh so much behind in cell chemistry, they created a pack with the same energy density, far better repairability and as it seems to me a much higher potential for recycling (pouch cells from aluminum compared to oosing epoxy everywhere). This is an excellent job! I vote for VAG to further explore the superiority of pouch cells over cylindricals. And don't let them use plastics for big structural parts in mass production! ... Recycling nightmare!
Thanks for your interesting comment
Thats it. He is talking als the Time about Polymer for weight Reduction. Im happy they built it in Aluminum instead. I would not buy that Stuff if they build it in some Polymer Bs.
3 and Y have power conversion and 2/3phase charging included in battery pack. But yeah, no repair to pack can be done easily
"I've been told that we'd like to have more subscribers, so if you can find yourself in the position to do that, please click that button" is one of the classiest subscription reminders I've ever heard.
I love the fact that you can tell in his head he's thinking " Come on they don't want to hear it and i don't want to say it" While knowing that it does increase subscribership.
I've clicked the subscribe just for that petition... I thought I was already subscribed.
If Sandy is still reading i would like to know if their was a boost this video.
Beat me to that quote. Sandy is slowly becoming a new hot youtube star.
I want Sandy to say "Wail on that subscribe button like it insulted your mother and ring that bell mofos!" Then I'll subscribe.
9:40 Don't forget the recycle-ability with bare aluminum. With glasfiber plastic this would be all scrap some day.
Fiber glass can be recycled now by pyrolysis on large scale e.g. wind turbine wings and yachts.
@@lpabildgaard It's not really recycling when you're burning the epoxy away, and the woven sheets used in the original structure can't be reused as woven sheets, all they can do is chop them up and use them for glass filled mouldings, so it's downcycling rather than recycling unfortunately.
@@lpabildgaard A pyrolyis is not really recycling. plastics are converted to CO2
As battery technology continues to evolve, EVs will trend toward much longer lifespans than combustion engines especially for fleet vehicles, and recyclability of these components become less of an issue comparatively.
@@jonathan4831 maybe so, but recyclability is already required in certain percentage of the total car. And that recyclability % is only going to go up.
Unfortunately, what is completely forgotten here is that the VW battery is scalable, meaning the battery can have 45, 58, 77 and 100 kWh net battery capacity. And can be installed in all vehicles of the VW Group, which are based on the MEB. In addition, there is the possibility to install different cells depending on availability. That means for me, this is very well developed. Especially since these modules, which make up the battery, can be used in stationary applications. Furthermore, it should be said that the weights for Model 3 and Y are not the LFP batteries, these are about 25kg heavier.
I'm really happy that this guy have nothing to do with Volkswagen. They already saving cost everywhere, but if they start listening to this guy, that would be a nightmare to work on these cars.
Of course VW can listen, but they can implement only the suggestions they consider viable. Even removing one completely redundant bolt where redundancy isn't needed can save in cost and complexity.
Quite unlikely they will change the frame to composite material. The ID-Platform is a long planned and carefully designed piece, that will be produced in the 10's of millions in the next years. It cost a fortune to design and develop. Whole factories are built around exactly this design.
True, and in my limited experience with VW (all old Golfs), they're already a nightmare.
he's just giving food for thought - and is paid by oems and manufacturers to add this thought process - doesn't mean it will ever be implemented - but next time they design something they can incorporate some of those ideas where they fit
His ideas sounds like exactly the reason most don’t buy American cars here.
I calculated about 9kg saving not 50 going from ID4 to Model Y battery design
(439/75)x82=479.97. ID4=489
Thats a... 1.8% difference? Worth it, not by itself. Shaving 1.8% from multiple places though might give a nice weight reduction though but could make some parts heavier, some unmaintainable and some a lot more expensive or harder to assemble and could create worse crash test result.
The solution is higher density battery cells.
This is the first thing I did to calculate the weight difference.
Yeah, I was fascinated at this terrible table! Just one relevant column with kg/kWh...
@timemachine_194 Turns out VW is really, really good at making cars!
Thanks SABIC for allowing sandy do a video on this
Any update on this one. Is SABIC still interested. Has any been made from plastics.
1:24 The ID.4 battery has 9.33% more capacity and weights 11.39% more.
In other words the ID.4 battery weights 9 Kg more than a 82kWh Tesla model Y battery would weigh.
Or the ID.4 battery weighs 1.88% more.
So that's a pretty good deal, considering the flexibility of VWs system. They can easily make the battery smaller by throwing out single modules and the "trays" can be made in different sizes for the different vehicles.
@@Monkeyheadtpc I agree but most car battery packs are modular so VW isn’t unique in this respect.
Exactly we should look at kilograms per kilowatt hour.
That said it is inherently easier to make a larger pack lighter relatively because the perimeter increases with the square of the size of the volume
So the Tesla packing is actually a little bit better than your calculation shows if we were to make them the same capacity the gap would probably increase a little bit
@@FreekHoekstra The ID.4 battery pack also included crash protection - how about Tesla?
@@venti4268 as far as i know, it does too.
Very well designed and engineered.
Great for recycling and for structural integrity and strength.
The MEB platform is immensely strong as proved by the 5 star euro n cap test results for the ID-3 which has the same battery pack design as the ID-4.
VW has done a sound job here.
This guy is out of his mind
I feel recycling should be taken into consideration as well
Thats the one big thing about e-mobility. You can recycle the main part, the batterie, up to 95%.
Nobody should build the battery by intend irrecycleable.
Yes, this is why I'm not convinced about the recent proposals to build the batteries into the structure of the vehicle. It is easier to reuse cells if they can be removed from the vehicle without cutting it to bits - it is also easy to replace a faulty cell if it is screwed in position rather than glued.
@@AndyFletcherX31 100% agree 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
@@AndyFletcherX31 the connections are welded together and the batteries are glued together in modules even though they aren't structural. You could replace a module though.
@@AndyFletcherX31 It doesn't help someone always wants to sell you a new car..
I am very impressed with this battery build and would be more confident when that once in a lifetime object in the road goes under this battery versus a polymer build battery. Few people realize impact damage to this housing can In effect, total out the vehicle. Saving money on the single most expensive part of the vehicle is tempting but not a good idea. I like the architecture of this battery over the Mach E bus bars. You will see soon. Corrosion around all those screws, long term in the challengingly extreme north country will not be a good thing, Mach E included. Interesting and great information as always. Thank you.
perhaps more battery modules could be saved after a crash with this design
My thoughts exactly
Hi, isn't the battery housing made of Aluminium? Should not that be resistent to corrosion anyway? , And regarding the bolts, I hope they are hopefully sea grade steel (inox).
"it would take an act of congress" LOL classic sandy.
Good luck Sandy and team. The MEB pack design is actually fairly cheap in construction using welded and glued extrusion and castings. Going to polymer with 1/5th of modulus to aluminum will be a challenge for crash, torsional stiffness, and thermal runaway management.
But can't wait to see the process and your findings!!!
Not really. STAMAX is very strong.
@@Drivethisnotthat stamax is very strong for a Polypropylene that's for sure. It is mildly strong (120MPa UTS) where Alumium usually is in the region of 300 and can go up to 600MPa. It's also isotropic where Stamax is not due to fiber orientation. Properties are weaker if you're not aligned with the fibers. It is so NOT stiff. if I look at the 40%LGF Stamax we talk of a modulus of 8300MPa. Aluminum is 70'000MPa. You can compensate for stiffness with design, but it usually means you need space. And in a battery pack, you want the space to be occupied by cells, not plastic.
@@fabriziom Also try recycling composites into anything with properties as good the part you started with and you'll see why Al is a much better choice for a mass produced consumer item.
@@peglor Indeed that's another good point. Especially long glass polymers. When recycled you break the fiber length.
Who is SABIC? From Wikipedia: "Saudi Basic Industries Corporation, known as SABIC, is a Saudi Arabian multinational chemical manufacturing company, and a subsidiary of the state-owned petroleum and natural gas company Saudi Aramco. It is active in petrochemicals, chemicals, industrial polymers, fertilizers, and metals."
Basically, how can we sustain demand for dino oil in an EV world? Plastics!
weight per kWh is almost identical between ID3 and Tesla Y
Yeah, I don't get how they get 50kg savings
its childish from guy like sandy to compare apples and oranges like that.. its ridiculous in my honest opinion.. and colored the numbers red .. well..
acctualy Tesla have 78 kwh capacity
75kwh i useful capacity (WV has 78 kwh useful capacity)
Id4 goes 260 miles on 82kwh while model y goes 326 miles on 75kwh. Id4 battery is heavier and larger for less range. Tesla's battery power density and energy distribution efficiency is much better. The model y is clearly superior.
Happy to see VW engineering is solid and with due respect, it's good to see Sandy isn't immediately ble to point out improvement areas.
It takes integrity and backbone to give a straight review on such a strategic design for VW and just state the facts - well done, Sandy!
Sandy's impartiality is good to see. He may have 'favourites' but is honest about it.
The only useful suggestions he makes would reduce on the order of a few kilos in exchange for much added complexity and reduced repairability (molded in-place connectors?). Suggestions like carbon fiber impact structures are only going to balloon the cost. Aluminum is superior to composites in cost, strength, and thermal conductivity. Any cost savings will be found in reducing the amount of aluminum used.
you forgot about recycling, aluminum is very easy to recycle compared to composite materials or carbon fiber
Considering the relationship he provided of 1 kg removed = $10 saved, using aluminum or fiberglass + polymer honeycomb composite products would be affordable and provide sufficient structural integrity. Only performance cars used carbon fiber, and carbon fiber will likely never reach affordability before something else comes along that is both more affordable and more recyclable.
This design is pretty much baked. Unless you go to a module-less whole pack design like CATL and separately Tesla, then you are going to be stuck with the blades in a box module with an array of modules that need to be held together in a larger box.
@@flipadavis yeah this is also the only way to offer enough flexibility for VW decentralised production and sourcing.
These modules make up all their batteries and offer a best effort compromise for space usage/density and design options.
It's just their initial thoughts here. I'm sure they'll investigate and refine better suggestions for their final report.
The word "Sabic" in Arabic means "molder".
Which is quite descriptive for a company specializing in plastics 👌🏽
Saudi Arabian Basic Industries Corporation
@@ClockworksOfGL
Double entandra, clever.. 😂
Uh, sabic means the leader of race, the 1st position. Sabic wa lahiq?!
I havent heard ot being used for molder, ever
@@AMalas the word you referred to is with the letter ق . Molder translated to Arabic, ends with the letter ك. So you have سابق the leader in race , vs سابك wich is molder.
@@abu_ghaleb huh, my brain just autocorrected the ك into Q
Fair fair fair
There’s not a hole lot of difference between the model Y and the ID4 battery pack in weight it’s just that the ID4 gives you more capacity for a cheaper price and I suspect that Volkswagen is keeping a larger buffer on both ends than Tesla have you noticed how easy the lid was removed compared to Tesla the Tesla pack is glued and very had to remove without distorting the top cover meaning that Volkswagen has planned for repair and serviceability plus you can probably buy module From Volkswagen to fix a pack compared to Tesla you have to buy a brand new pack. And they don’t sell. Much parts to independent repair shops rights to repair anyone.
And yet Tesla has more range
As you have said in contrast to Sandy's position, I take repairability/ serviceability every day. I'm not a fanboy of any brand, but I personally would not put my money in a product, which is not designed to be repaired. This is why I think Tesla is about to meet the real world and why it will not dominate the EV market after 10 years. Now, EVs are bought by people with enough $$$ and they make decisions based on a different set of values. In the long run, the price and ability to repair will have to be factored in. I certainly hope people start thinking and if they are for real about preserving the environment, the responsible thing is to have the car for 15+ years or even more.
@@rideyourbikent Not really, Model Y and ID.4 have roughly the same range in real world tests.
@@primetablet Correct. Tesla advertises range they can't deliver while VW sandbags their published range and most people exceed it in practice.
@@primetablet where is this real world?I want to go there 😢
Saving to the manufacture...expensive to the costumer in the long run. A polymer to hold a massive heavy battery pack like that, plus the heat cycles? I would prefer to keep the metal structure then.
This is not toys plastics to be sure. Anyway shame they cannot do structural pack. That would be 1 step ahead. But sadly from WV they just follow example after almost 10 yrs of teach.
@@alesksander good quality plastics cost money...why use expensive plastics, when you can use metal instead? They are trying to use some type of plastic to save instead of the metal option.
@@RogerM88 I believe he explained why this would be good. You get savings from using less fasteners and less welds. You get a weight reduction. Less weight means you can use a smaller battery to get the same range or keep the size the same and get more range.
@@ymcpa73 no thanks...I'd rather keep the "heavy" steel version. Especially to encase a battery pack. Plus more resistant to perforation from debris on the road.
@@RogerM88 Sure also atm savety is huge concern. They choose wise for sure. But its not forward thinking as it should. Structural is way to go. But hey thats beauty of lateral thinking.
With aluminium extrusion profiles you make and cheap strong light design, it is similar to the underfloor containers on trains in Germany, nothing really new. With carbon fiber design it will be a bit lighter but more complicated and way more expensive frame. This design seams to be part of the load-bearing structure like tesla idea but less integrated concept. Also saw some laser welds there.
As much as it would be nice to include the connectors, what about replacement? As they age the plastic could be more brittle and if they broke you would have to junk the pack or replace the whole shell. Sandy seems to be more concerned about saving the OE money and less about repairability.
It's pretty clear that his analysis is pretty much purely about saving money on the manufacturing side. And reliability within the warranty period. Without thought put into reparability or sustainability. All his recommendations are well and good for a car that will last 10 years and not need to have individual components replaced, but what about when it comes to the EOL of the vehicle, recyclability etc. Imagine having the car mechanically totaled because a connector issues causes you to need a battery replacement instead of a connector replacement.
There is something to be said about items that are infinitely rebuildable that last a long time.
@@CondoreComputing a reliable car is finitely more environmentally better than recycling these things every 5 years. no way it makes 10 years without everything else decaying.
@CondoreComputing Manufacturers want non-repairable EVs. There's is less guaranteed income from EVs as they are projected to require less repairs and recalls.
Manufacturers have a large incentive to force anyone outside of a warrenty to buy a new vehicle as that is essentially the only source of income from EVs. Some people may buy a clapped EV in hopes to slap a 5k$ battery in it, but there is no guarantee the mounting design will be in production given 10-15 years time.
The thing with ICE vehicles was they could keep producing large amounts of OEM parts and sell them all at large markups.
There is not much to profit post-sale other than brakes, rotors and suspension, which are all things Manufacturers don't make a dime from.
Personally I don't see Manufacturers trickling down cost savings. If an ICE is 25k, and a profit margins of 5k, why would you sell an EV for less than 25k when it would cost less than an ICE to manufacture, nice, we made an EV for 15k, but we can still sell it for 25k, doubling our profit.
Carbon fibre frame - the material cost increase would be offset by the weight reduction benefit.
On the plus side, the ID.4 battery looks much easier to recycle doesn't it? I believe the state of the art in 3rd party Tesla pack recycling is a worker with a pick breaking the epoxy bit by bit.
I was about to ask, aren't the battery cells in a Tesla all glued together?
That sounds like an absolute nightmare to recycle.
@@zocker1600 modern machines can do it, but why not make it easier indeed
Recyclability will become a non-issue with EVs when battery technology innovation achieves 1 million or more mile lifespans.
@Some Person You are right! I think the recycling was in the focus for the decision to take aluminium for the frame: Plastic is in many countries special garbage but not aluminium. - So somewhere needs to compromize.
@@jonathan4831 no you are absolutely wrong, recyclability is _always_ an issue, no matter how long the battery lasts, or do you want to have a planet full of battery waste in 100 years??
It would be a non-issue only if the batteries would last infinite, which is clearly impossible.
That battery pack is an engineering thing of beauty.
As a civil engineer working toward BEV and transit this is an exceptional explanation. Thank you Sandy.
the ID.4 is built like a tank
Good.
I think you'd struggle to swap the enclosure frame to composite in the available package space, for the same cost, without changing the body of the car to keep the crash performance.
The ID4 battery is about 10% larger than the Model Y capacity wise. And it is about 10% more weight... So you are trying to have a bigger capacity battery in the same weight as a smaller capacity one. That would only work if Tesla battery was too heavy for its size..
VW uses pouch cells,Tesla round cells, that is not apples to apples, there is a realistic chance of VW (or someone else) building a battery with a better capacity/weight ratio.
@@tzarcoal1018 Or worse capacity / weight ratio, but using a cheaper chemistry. See BYD Blade LFP cells.
No its not the model y is 82kwh or possibly more . It was never 75kwh even the old model 3 had 80.5 kwh
The depth of the analysis is so appreciated, thank you Sandy!!
You’re welcome.
Sandy appeared to be struggling to find ways to shed weight off the pack in ways that wouldn't come at the expense of other considerations (e.g. thermal, safety, etc.) Just goes to show that the Germans have considerable engineering skill - there's a reason Musk is building a gigafactory in Germany (despite the hurdles) instead of Spain or France.
If VW doesn't figure out how to make something plastic then it probably shouldn't be plastic.
@@UhOhUmm Truth!
A $130 billion dollar OEM spending tens of billions of dollars to design a new EV platform has knowledgeable engineers? Color Sandy shocked. Coming from non-stop Tesla teardowns where Sandy found flaw after flaw that he had to tell Tesla engineers how to do their jobs... while strangely touting how great the Tesla engineering team is.... this must have come as a surprise.
@@updlate4756 it's as if he's not unbiased to a certain manufacturer huh.
@@smonyboy he's biased as all hell
@1:45 ... the pack already *is* practically on par with the Tesla packs. Tesla: 5.85kg/kWh, VW: 5.96kg/kWh - which is quite impressive for a modular system vs. a brick of glue...
Nope, they already have more kwh with same weight...but, tbh it`s not much room for improvement besides chemistry itself...
It is the Tesla's 2017 Panasonic battery pack. The ID.3 takes 125 kW peak, the Model 3 takes 250 kW. Power and managing/conditioning takes extra space and wheight. The ID.3 with this battery is a 4-seater, because VW struggled heavily with the payload. When the 4680s are coming out, this all will look quite outdated.
Is that guy serious? The kwh/kg is the same for ID4 and Model 3/Y.. He also makes a video suggesting that they should replace aluminum with carbon fiber?? Yes Munro, it will bring the weight down and the price 10x up and make recycling 100x more expensive.
Also 8.8 bolt is the metric standard for bolts (the most used in all appliances and ok for this application). If the bolt was 10.9 or 12.9 then it is considered to be a bit special not the 8.8 bolt!
He's being paid by Saudi Oil to shill for plastics. He literally says it in the video, that's what SABIC is.
Its like an engineering class on real engineering applications.
Especially an engineering class that uses SI units!
No, it's not.
dude there is no way replacing this alu with composites is cheaper. I don't know what is sandy smoking. Also i have my doubt's there is 100kilo of alu there to begin with.
@@hagestad add to that the ecological cost of introducing yet more non-renewables. This is a farce.
Except he confuses the term "yield".
I'm constantly amazed by Sandy's depth and breadth of engineering knowledge. 🙏
It's very good, undeniably, first class in fact, but you might be equally amazed at the number of top engineers who do very much the same everyday. I think the public hugely underestimate the skills that are out there.
Amazed? By what? He was struggling to find ways to reduce the weight. And the VW battery pack is just slightly heavier than Model Y if you consider a similar size battery. But the VW battery pack looks more robust and especially more easy to recycle. Also making it out of composite will cost more in the end and will be a nightmare to recycle.
USA těžce zaostává za světem , pohled na to co se děje na vašich univerzitách je velmi smutný . Dostáváte se nazpět na úroveň před světovými válkami na kterých jste neuvěřitelně zbohatli.
Sandy, I work with VW group. its more likely German changes its beer purity law before VW engineers will discuss any changes to their design
Facts.
Germans are usally very good at engeneering. They always tend to do things the way they like even if someone else comes with a good solution.
So far he hasn't really provided any meaningful ideas for changes in the design, so why would they?
His main changes amount to making the battery case with unrecyclable, more expensive materials (Because a company that makes parts in these materials paid him to investigate this). Integrating the plugs with the case casting only works if you have already changed the case material. Removing the small fasteners is the only good suggestion, provided they replace them with a serviceable joint (Avoid welding, rolled metal joints (Like seal tin cans) and glues that can't be removed) so the battery modules can be individually replaced in future.
Don’t listen old Man …
Excellent video, Sir. Hope solid state batteries are here by 2030. Eat right & keep fit so you can review them for us. I will cut back on my Tequila.
Here in Finland 8.8 strength bolts are officially recommended. It is very rare to see less than 8.8 bolts here.
Whole Europe I suspect. 8.8 is 800 N/mm² tensile strenght and the 99% industry standard. The second ".8" means 80% of the 800 N/mm² = 640 N/mm² yield strenght at the upper end of the elastic deformation.
@@Stefan_Dahn It may be. Less than 8.8 bolts are pretty useless.
Germans are very good at mechanical engineering. I love my ID.4, it is the best EV that I have driven so far. I loved all the VWs that I have owned (Golf GTI and Touareg), they build cars right. Definitely heavier than Japanese cars, but the ride is much better at freeway/autobahn speeds. Much higher quality than Tesla.
Yes but the germans suck at electronics, my M2 is a nightmare
The quality on Tesla m3 seems to be way higher then my golf this far
Wow that battery looks as though it could last twice as long as the Tesla's. Especially if you live near the beach. Corrosion seems to be a weakness in battery packs... Love how rigid and well made it looks too. They did a good job. Thanks for showing that.
Can somebody provide some more info regarding speculated battery pack corrosion, providing you live near the sea?
The pack does look sturdy & well-made, no argument here
@@elektrotehnik94 paint it
All I heard was basically "make it impossible to repair"
and impossible to recycle
A plastic composite battery pack sounds like an ecological disaster, metal might be heavy, but at least is relatively easy to recycle
Aluminium is fabulously recyclable. It's a crime to throw it away.
But if the composite is both cheaper and lighter, then you know what the manufacturer will do.
@@alexnutcasio936 A composite is not and will not be cheaper than aluminium
I think a composite battery is a bad idea for vibration and salt that they place on the road is going to be wakening the Palmer overtime. If I was going to chase weight I would look into wheels and the size of tire suspension components.
And now everytime I get a text, my phone screams in sandy's voice "it's 2 nuts!"
I'd say leave it as it is. Fix the rest of the overweight car.
Yeah vw just need to use more aluminum or light weight materials on the car shelf
Somebody is already working on it. The goal is an overall weight reduction
@@alanmay7929 That would work for sure. Fibreglass too for non weight/stress-bearing parts. Beware of aluminium's weaknesses though. It's very different from steel and can suffer metal fatigue. You'd not choose it for springs for example ! Aluminium is also a soft metal (sometimes useful), its alloys less so, especially aircraft alloys. My 1970 Rover P6 (2000TC) used some aluminium bodywork to reduce weight. Bristol (also aircraft makers) and Alvis used aluminium too, way earlier, in their cars.
Not that easy when the buyer wants power seats, big greenhouse, more airbags for safety, more sound deadening, meeting new crash requirements, etc. It all adds up. Which is why we no longer have spare tires for one thing.
@@davidmccarthy6061 true, but this VW is heavier than its competitors too. There are gains to be made, and are crucial for EV performance
If you save weight by using more expensive carbon fiber composites do you actually save any money?
how will sandy appear clever to the non engineers? And also hype Tesla at the same time?
No
Stop using polymers, plastics and carbon fibers in cars. It‘s not recycable
You can recycle carbon fiber.
@@TheEvilmooseofdoom yes, but by far not as easily as metal.
VW = you can service that. Tesla = you can buy a new one ( = Apple's The World Is A Junkyard Philosophy). Munro: I can't do math or I think my viewers can't.
Depending on one stream of income had never made any millionaire and earning check doesn't put you in Forbes
Interesting most people don't understand the market moves and tend to be mislead in facts like this and depend on money in the bank.very bad Idea
Crypto is the future investing in it now would be a wise decision to make in few years time it would be used by major organization as a form of payment
@@berylhogan9325 Yeah, but only when you trade with a professional
You are right, in the past I tried trading on my own but made almost no profit until I was link to a professional, the result was exceptional
My first investment with a professional earned me $4150 with $1000 in less than a week
glad they design the id4 this way rather than be worried about hitting debris on the highway that will cost you an entire car. All those fasteners also make the car serviceable.
This was a good video on a part of the ID-family batteries. But Sandy have to keep in mind that there are other issues besides weight that has to be taken into consideration. Both safety and the enviroment are big issues in Europe, so the frame should be recyclable. The ID3 for example is carbon neutral. VW is even setting up their own recycling plants.
Diesel Gate
1:40 Tesla has a new 82kWh battery since Q4 20, Q2 2021 that weighs the same as the 77kWh old battery and has the same size, more dense. You should check it out.
Fair point . @Munroe Live
this is the stuff I want to see. not the pulsar interview from the other day. More subscribers equals more money for Munro to do more teardowns. win-win for all. Great video. Thanks!
More to come!
How many electric cars are available to tear down? If he was just doing tear downs, he wouldn't have many videos. More content equals more subscribers. What Sandy is doing is fine.
The battery pack is part of the structure of the car now and should be strong, not composite. This is called the skateboard concept. Thank you for showing this technology in pieces! We all would love to do what Munro does every day.
World has enough plastics as is. Battery parts are infinitely recyclable, please lets keep them this way.
Welcome to the wonderful world of contradicting requirements, the so-called real engineering. Want world without plastic - you can watch an old movie from the 1920's.
also aluminum is very light. I doubt there is 100kilos of aluminum in that battery to begin with .
I mean munro even suggested that the wheel suspension is made to heavy and weight could have bin saved....he also complained that German cars are allways way heavier than compareable cars....
Yet who preferes a more flimsy wheel suspension?
The other thing is sound and vibration proofing the car adds weight.
Allmost all cars I drove start to become realy load at some point above 120 kmh, fords at above 130 kmh(aka 81 mph)
Yet cars mainly build for Germany habe to be comfortable to ride for way higher speeds.
Hitting a road bump with 200kmh is different than doing so with 80mph.
I dont think munro would save these weights if he would build these cars for Germany.
@@TremereTT also in EU they make those cars heavy on purpose to have more fuel allowance by law so they don't have to pay gas guzzler fines. That is for ice cars of course.
@@hagestad Soundproofing a car for fast speeds isn't easy! you wouldn't add additional weight just for fun.
From Australia: I've only just started watching this man. But it is also the first time watching an American using metric. SOOO good, I don't have to ask my Google Nest "Hey Google what is the conversion for 236 pounds?". LOL
No easy way to recycle carbon fiber structure. Let’s not advocate for that.
I agree. There's only so many recycled hipster office desks people will want.
Bmw actually recycles their carbon fiber
@@alanmay7929 I am curious how. Once in shape the fiber can’t be extracted. If it’s chopped it won’t have the same strength anymore. It’s essentially hard needles that’s not reusable.
@@qilu6313 carbon fiber is actually too easy to recycle, they burn it to reduce the bonding resilne and the fibers can be reused again.
@@alanmay7929 it is possible to recycle it but the capacity is quite low. Also the process is far from environmental friendly. I was digging for more updated info around the topic. Seems that the recycled fiber is still pretty decent in quality but certainly won’t provide the confidence for high performance structures. I could be wrong about the state of the art recycling method so if you can provide more references I would appreciate it.
I like what I see - conservative German engineering. That pack looks skookum.
it's not bad engineering, it's good, just not great. great engineering does not mean over-engineering. unfortunately the germans can sometimes get carried away, due to their superior technical abilities. a perfect balance of cost and function is the goal... unfortunately this was not an example of it. but it's v1, their v2 should have lots of improvements thanks to Sandy.
@@2hedz77 I agree with the v1 and v2 part. Tesla is already at v3 or v4? But the other part of this whole video is so missleading. Look at CarsonJ's comment. The energy density is off by 1,8%. And the design is way more servicable, recycable probably way lower cost than the compound polymere solution suggested. So overall nice overview of the design but since most of the video is about the weight difference and how to improve that the whole video is basically obsolete.
Can't wait for the Mustang Mach-E teardown series! I hope it's as detailed as the Model Y teardown!
It will be!
the Mexican Mustang will have a Squirrel mounted in the motor bay.
@@markplott4820 Troll somewhere else.
@@patreekotime4578 - you still live in your mother's basement. what a Dweeb.
@@markplott4820 Actually the Mach-E is about the only other EV worth buying at this point. It is not a Tesla and never will be, but if you want an EV and hate Tesla it is the car for you.
This battery design prevents the “ testla fire meltdown events “ because each battery module is separated by multiple aluminum vases
sometimes I think ... am I weird for being obsessed with this channel? I am not an engineer ... but I just love seeing sandy talk about engineering!
this is something that has been 'hidden' for so long that it's very interesting to see how it's done.
Sure, the complete housing for the battery packs could be made out of carbon. So you can half the weight. But in case of an accident with damaged batteries, the safety of the passengers must be always the highest priority.
Call me crazy but I'd rather have aluminium protecting and working as a heat shield versus plastic around the batteries. Especially considering they aren't solid state yet.
I think you mean elastic state for the preload in the bolt not plastic. You dont want a plastic deformation for a bolt in standard application.
Actually, a torque-to-yield fastener is preloaded right into the beginning of the yield zone, meaning that it has exceeded its elastic limit and does permanently stretch... which is plastic deformation. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque-to-yield_fastener
@@brianb-p6586 I agree with you about the TTY torque, I nerver see that a lot in car industrie.... You don't put the bolt in the trash when you remove the bolt and do some repair. Maybe for the battery pack on the id4 it's the case to increase fatigue life. Im working in Aerospace and we have a lot of TTY bolt like Hilite and when we remove one we put it in the trash and put a new one cause the bolt stretch a little bit and we can not be sure what is the new torque due to a longer bolt. You know when you use a TTY bolt it's not the same geometrie as the standard one ricksfreeautorepairadvice.com/tty-bolts/
@@cyrikdnamps Routine automotive repair doesn't see TTY bolts because they're not used in the suspension, brakes, or driveline. They show up in internal engine fasteners, such as head bolts, which are rarely touched by an automotive tech now, since engines go to specialists for rebuilding, or are rebuilt by amateurs working at level well beyond the typical home garage maintenance effort. I do my own maintenance, but it has been so long since I've rebuilt an engine that I've never encountered a TTY bolt.
Motors and battery packs like this will almost never be disassembled for repair by anyone, but need to be disassembled to recycle the components when they are done. That means after the car they were installed in is scrapped, and in the case of the motor possibly after the motor is used in another application as well; if the VW battery pack is disassembled it will most commonly be only to salvage the remaining good modules or to recycle the pack. As a result, even though these bolts are single-use, most of them will never need to be replaced, and those that are replaced will be in specialized rebuilding facilities.
I wasn't expecting such a good battery pack, just slightly worse than Model 3/Y, IMO.
PS: the new Model 3/Y packs are 82kWh also, and the next version will probably be around 100kWh with 4680 cells 😎
I'm a little sad to see them still using modules. I thought Tesla's battery day might have got the point across that you're wasting weight and lowering energy density with that approach.
Also, we don't know what size the Y pack will be yet with 4680! I think it'll be 75/80kw as it is now, that'll be much lighter with the more energy dense pack and as a result you'll get better range. :)
@@VoxelLoop The energy density here has more to do with the battery chemistry and pack construction than the cell design. Pouch cell packs have the capability of being far more energy dense than cylindrical cells. For example, using the identical chemistry, the BYD Blade pack is 15% lighter than the Model 3 2170 pack.
@@VoxelLoop Modules make it partially replaceable and the extra safety factor and the standing patents makes it better/cheaper for VW as well...
@@newscoulomb3705 I mean in Tesla's case with the 4680, the larger cells leave less gaps between the cells so you get a higher energy density. :)
That makes sense for pouch cells though!
If I recall, Tesla went with cylindrical because they were easier to mass-produce.
@@coldfusionspacexxx9814 The issue is that no one ever replaces modules. Tesla used them for the same reason, but how often is a module ever replaced? Basically never at this point.
The other useless weight for 3/Y is the packs are still setup 'kind of' for quick-release to swap them out like Tesla had originally planned. Though, Tesla has removed some of this mechanism they haven't removed all of it yet and it adds some weight. (Maybe the latest Model Y packs have changed this?)
I can tell you are working under contract from a polymer supplier. The crash protection rails on the side could be super high strength steel like many manufacturers are putting in doors. This would be cheaper and lighter than the aluminum or polymer. you could embed them in the polymer shell during the molding process.
It's like being back at school, only this time around class is interesting and with a teacher that doesn't do BS. I actually stand a chance of learning something about electrickery.
ID4 = 167.7 Wh/kg
Model Y = 170.8 Wh/kg
Less than 2% difference
Laughs in 4680 cells
@@michelmelinot The 4680 cell is larger but not particularly more energy dense than the 2170 cells
Also traditional battery makers took batteries from over $1000 to under $100 and they haven't stopped innovating
Tesla gets social media so you hear a lot about them. The Chinese and Koreans and Japanese don't get English social media but they aren't stupid they also make improvements
Did you hear about the improvements that reduced battery prices fromm 1000 to 900 at Panasonic? No. What a out the improvement that took it down from 900 to 800 at CATL? No. What about the improvement that tool batteries from 800 to 700 thanks to the innovations at LG chem? No you didn't hear about that
Who do you think took battery costs down from $1000/KWh to $100/KWh? It was traditional Asia battery manufacturers. And what do you think they will do over the next decade? Perhaps take batteries from $100/KWh down to around $40
Yeah, it's interesting how close they are in Wh/kg considering ID.4 is using pouch cells and modular packs. -50kg would swing that +2% to -8%.
@@michelmelinot Laughs VW with solid state production vehicles by 2025 with QuantumState.
@@marcusevjourney566 maybe, but not under the VW brand... their high end brands will take all supply atleast till 2030. a solide state 911 will come before a solide state id4
Thank you Sandy Munro. Excellent talk today and on E for Electric yesterday
Thank you so much.
Batteries in a crash are something of a nightmare, as much as a fuel tank. Is see why they over-engineered the framing of the support also why they protect the cooling liquid channels. I’m curious to see the bottom of this power battery?
50 kg lighter?? 439/75=5.8533 kg/kwh. Thats TMY. If you want 82 kwh then the total weight would be 5.8533x82= 480 kg. Thats 9 kg lighter,not 50 kg. 489 kg listed for VW. Am I right or wrong?
It cracks me up that Sandy thinks he knows better than the hundreds of engineers at VW that worked on this car...probably just this battery 🔋
The weight and configuration of the battery is for structural and crash protection purposes. The Germans don't make things unnecessarily heavy without a purpose. From VW's own training material:
-The battery housing is made of aluminium. Reinforcements have been installed inside the housing to provide the battery modules with the best possible
protection in the event of an accident, both in the longitudinal and the lateral directions.
-Make sure nobody enters the vehicle after the high-voltage battery is removed because the battery contributes to the
overall body rigidity. Once the high-voltage battery has been removed, there is a risk of vehicle body damage due to
distortion.
I think the meb platform this is from. Is designed to end up going in multiple different types of vehicles and I believe it's a structural member of the vehicle.
I think the other issue is puncture resistance and impact resistance. I'm not sure I would trust a polymer battery casing although it could theoretically be better than aluminum.
It is a very attractive looking design and certainly seems to be quite structurally sound.
The bolt EVS battery pack is a steel casing but it's stamped steel on the top cover and the bottom cover is a structurally reinforced steel. Like the Volkswagen though it is individually disassembleable. You can pull individual modules out and replace them if they fail unlike the Tesla design which is not really repairable
Can you imagine how many hours the engineers already put into that pack? And here we come into a video with the single plan of making them look wasteful and inefficient :---------)
It’s actually way easier than Tesla all glued together tousands and thousands of cells, vw uses significantly way less battery cells.
Those bows in the bus bars also mitigate flexing that occurs as the vehicle travels and bounces down the road. It's not much but it can cause the fasteners to loosen over time.
Structural integration of the battery pack and vehicle chassis would yield more weight savings.
FYI - integrating those connectors into a molded battery pack tub, would be nearly impossible .. due to varying material performance/cost requirements and tooling complexity of connector features.
Wow.. that's a very well designed battery system! Love that center wiring scheme & cast support system.
I'd do the finite element analysis on it with different materials to ensure the mechanical/strength, cooling, & electrical properties are maintained, while using the least cost materials where ever possible & keeping in mind production process efficiencies.
I'd bet the total weight could be decreased even more than 50 kg/batt system.
Yes, they can reduce the weight by using other components instead of aluminium, but at the cost of reducing the repairability and recyclability, some times it's better to compromise in weight to have a more sustainable product.
@@Gresteh Good points. It could be made modular with composites to improve repairability & recyclability.
That finger touch in the bus bar without gloves ☠️
Weight always must be comparable. MEB Battery includes crashprotection.
Correct . But do the Tesla battery pack weight include crash protection?
He meant elastic deformation not plastic deformation, if those 8.8 were plastically deformed it would yield to catastrophic failure.
No, not if the intended load is well below yield. It is used in several applications such as engine cover bolts, which are "torque to yield" fasteners, to ensure consistent clamping force. He is however wrong that initial torque + torque angle signifies that the bolts are torque to yield, it is just a more accurate way of torquing the bolts (but more complex with higher chance of error).
Cost reduction with carbon fibre/composite, sound cheap and easy to manufacture:) Good luck with that:)
I'm often reminded to the example of the GR-Yaris which is a highly optimised design with alot of bespoke leight weight components, which are unsurprisingly quite expensive. As a result the GR costs about twice as much as the normal version and is simply not a 'affordable' economy car. It is awesome, but not cheap.
Compared to ICE cars, the range/efficiency of EVs is also much more dependent on pure battery capacity and aerodynamics. Pure weight savings, while desirable, are secondary.
@@lennoxbaumbach390 I am often reminded of sarcasm
At the cost of weight, I feel avoiding plastics has a huge recyclability advantage and reduces the builds carbon footprint. I’m suprised he just says it needs to be plastic.
Do you mean elastic state for that bolt, not plastic? from what I understand plastic deformation does not allow the bolt to return to its original state. You are therefore tightening ( torquing ) the bolt to a figure below its yield strength i.e. the elastic region, anything above this will be plastic.
The bolt will be permanently deformed. Any structural bolts should be replaced if removed for proper joints.
@@CharlesClift If the bolts are permanently deformed, would they work as a spring as suggested? I would assume not. One use bolts on a car are new to me if that is the case. happy to learn more on that one
@@markytuck Some engines use the same method to mount the cylinder head to the engine block. There are usually long screws and once you torque them they have to be replaced when the removed. It is called Torque to yield head bolts.
@@asicdathens thank you, I have learnt about a new type of bolt today. Seems to be good for high amounts of thermal cycles and high amplitudes. Would be interesting to understand why they use it in this location specially.
The are used elastic. 80% of the 800 N/mm², so 640 N/mm² (refering to the mentioned 8.8 screws.
I never knew a bolt's thread could act as a spring, or that there was a screw that could melt into place. Thank you for your informative videos!
The section that does _not_ engage the nut can spring or deform. Sandy pointed out that the unthreaded section is designed to deform slightly.
Is SABIC going to come up with a recycling plan for the thermoplastics because there is one for the current frame.
Legally yes, if they want to sell in Europe.
I'll be happy to recycle some of those cell packs once people start wrapping ID.4s around trees. It's only a matter of time. They are beautiful, perfect for solar storage.
@@Miata822 The cells wouldnt be the issue, the composites would be. itll just be more plastic to fill our oceans
@@Miata822 unlikely. VW already has a working battery recycling center in Germany.
Good point. SABIC has a terrible environmental track record. Their new cracking plant by where I live will be an enormous polluter.
A polymer concept would have to be made of duroplast/thermoset plastic combined with kevlar or even carbon fibers as you mentioned. It would save weight but be very expensive, especially for high volume production. BMW used a lot of expensive CF in the i3 but learned that for EV efficieny weight is less important than drag.
I don't really understand where those 50 kg come from. According to the table the Model Y battery is 50 kg lighter but also 7 kWh smaller in capacity?
Screws 😏
It comes from ignoring the capacity difference, which is a pretty blatant error by Munro.
What’s the recycling aspect vs the weight saving, recycling composite vs aluminium may benefit the use of aluminium 🤷🏻♂️
At the same time though lugging around an extra 50 kg for 500,000 miles or whatever the expected life expectancy of this vehicle is, is going to represent a lot of energy as well plus the initial melting of all the metals takes a lot more energy then sculpting a polymer at relatively low heat.
Finally if it’s one large piece it should be fairly easy to disassemble, and so if it is a reasonable plastic then you could relatively easily melt that down and reuse it.
the main problem with plastic recycling tends to be various types of plastics getting mixed together. That said if you were to reinforce it with other materials like say some form of fiber that would definitely make it harder to recycle
@@FreekHoekstra The thing is that Munro failed at basic math... the VW battery only weights 8kg more than the model Y battery would weight if it were the same size as VW's not 50. VW designed its battery to ensure recyclability and composites are usually not recyclable. In the end VW's design is fairly good, it may be a little bit heavier than Tesla's but at the same time is modular, easier to repair and easier to recycle.
@@Gresteh Sadly I have to agree. Some of the recent videos on this channel I don't think follow any reasonable logic.
crazy overbuilt. i don't know but more likely reuse this design for other cars and into the future. this also feels a bit better for recycling
They use this in MEB platform in Skoda, Audi, VW models with 40-77kWh usable battery size.
Battery tray and pack, should be over Engineer, for side impact, general crash resistance and pack Underbody protection. The iD4 is a SUV, so it should be Beefier than a sedan. Also the front and rear diffuser can be made out of plastic.
I'm not so sure polymer is a good solution here.
SANDY should benchmark TESLA model Y first.
They will build literally millions of these battery packs per year, VW will have massive economies of scale with that thing. There will be over two dozens of electric car models all using this battery pack across the entire company in just a few years.
They put a lot of effort and money into designing and engineering this pack.
I have found your videos and observations to be illuminating. You are a great resource and you don't back on your feedback which I most admire!
Plastic and yield state is no different from each other. Anything less is elastic elongation. Tensioned bolts don’t need to be in yield/plastic deformation to function as intended.
I'd have though elastic was best, although I have heard of cases where plastic deformation is specified, 'big end' bolts for example. Just make sure to use a new one when rebuilding !
Glad you mentioned that. However I do believe that “tighten past yield” is a “common” approach for critical fasteners like engine head bolts. Although I’m not sure exactly why but it might be a good way to get consistent preloads without all the friction variations of torque
@@tf1354 There has to be a good reason I'm sure. Those bolts typically also don't use a locking tab washer which troubled me somewhat, so I improvised some myself.
looking at big batterypacks like this feels like being in the early stages of computing and seeing these massive assemblies. it gives you that hunch that things will definetly become a lot more compact than this.
what i really like is that u can easy exchange the smaller compartments of battery cells. Maintenance, Repair, perhaps even upgrade to better future batterie technology is totally possible. And the modular design can be scaled for different variants. U really see how the think strategically when designing, while tesla has a ad-hoc how to solve that problem today design. The Data comparison from Model 3 to Model Y shows they only made very minor increments, and its a fixed unchangable Design for that Model.
VW Design allows them to change to better battery tech on the fly, it just has to meet the modules specs.
I think it is commendable that they did not save the weight, and went for this which is probably more solid. I did not expect these newer VW parts to look so solid,
So if you reduce the weight by swapping the aluminum with polymer frame, does it is increase material cost? How is the $10 per kg derived?
My question exactly. Carbon Fibre is expensive.
$10 per kg is just a generalization, a kind of place holder pending the real costs. To get the real costs, you have to go much deeper. The true cost of a design has to take into account the manufacturing steps required to assemble the car, the robots and manpower involved, the price paid for outsourced parts, and even risks - if a design is more risk-prone in some way, cost analysts will usually factor the cost of risks into the cost analysis. Risks are varied. Safety risks, parts failure risks, risk of misalignments during assembly, anything that could require taking a cost charge or the cost of corrective action during or after assembly is fair game. Even the risk of litigation after the vehicle is sold is fair to include in a cost analysis. Some engineering decisions may elevate or reduce risks. It all can be quantified, although it's usually necessary to make some assumptions to get to the final figures.
As an aside, VW hasn't always done a good job with costing risks. If they had, they'd never have played the engineering games that led to Dieselgate. Those engineering decisions put the company at enormous risk - and that risk materialized, to the tune of many billions of dollars.
Every step in assembly costs robot time, or manpower, or both. Nothing is free. So deleting steps is great when you can do it, as useful as reducing weight, or even more so.
To save weight, Sandy talked about reducing fasteners, changing materials and reducing parts (by combining functions in larger parts). He mentioned welding; there are a lot of different welding approaches available to a manufacturer, some more expensive than others, and sometimes design decisions can reduce or eliminate the need for welding.
He hasn't yet torn down the battery pack, so he may find weight savings inside, too. And cost savings.
Weight doesn't really drive costs all by itself, but it's always good to get weight down for a BEV. The lighter it is, the better the range and energy efficiency, factors which affect consumer demand. What Sandy is looking for is really a two-fer: reduce weight and generate cost savings. His rule of thumb is $10 per kg going into an analysis, but the cost analysis isn't limited to two variables, and those two variables, cost and weight, aren't truly correlated dependent variables. You could, for example, reduce weight in an engineering decision that would *increase* cost. Or generate a cost savings by *increasing* weight. But because it's a BEV, the imperative to always seek weight reductions factors significantly into an engineer's thinking about a design. So Sandy is looking for improvements in both cost and weight.
If the past is any indication, he will find what he's looking for.
@@Urgelt Thanks for the explanation. I agree that weight reduction is important. Perhaps the end result is that Munro generates a bucket full of suggestions, each has a specific weight reduction number, and it will be up to the supplier and manufacturer to quantify the savings. Munro, after all, is not privy to all of VW's processes.
@@khuo0219 Yes, OEMs have positions called Cost Engineers/Vehicle Cost Engineers that determine a $ amount to both new parts and cost reduction ideas. They are usually the first filter for cost reduction ideas because they also assign an estimate for the $$ needed to make a change to tooling. If the savings aren't going to recoup the tooling cost within 1-2 years of production, they'll cut the idea.
@@Urgelt To get the highest weight reduction: get rid of the aluminium frame and integrate the battery pack inside the existing bodyshell of the car and do local reinforcements. For manufacturing it will be not so nice.
It's funny to see company's like Murno, they had and guess still have good times advising certain company's. I used to work for a big Car manufacturer as Costs Engineer and it was just fun to see the idea's some of these company's come up with. Don't forget supply companies like SABIC is using multiple company's to work on this.
I hope you'll tear it apart further and show us how the cells and modules are cooled.
Excellent Analysis Sir...Greetings from India...
"I was told that we need more subscribers" 😅😂