We'll have full rankings for Mythic+ & Raids covering: Melee, Ranged, Tanks, & Healers this patch! Of course, play what you want, these are only statistical and apply mostly to people pushing high-end timings/progress Thanks for watching and happy new year!
Let’s see how long we can keep Dratnos making tier lists 2x/day. Jk really happy you guys picked him up, his content is what inspired me to start pushing keys more seriously.
Essence grinding for M+ Melees is in fact incredibly simple. Major is pretty much set with Yolobeam. Best minor by far is protocoll, which will only require revered and an afternoon of spare parts farming for rank 3 in 8.3 . As second minor, Strife is a top choice for many melees, and only requires rank 2, which is not more than 2 pvp chests and 1k rating.
For everyone, who is just here to see the results in points. 1. Rogue: 24/25 Total Points 2. Demon Hunter: 23/25 Total Points 3. Death Knight: 19/25 Total Points 4. Windwalker Monk: 19/25 Total Points 5. Warrior: 17/25 Total Points 6. Paladin 17/25 Total Points
i think they haven't logged in since start of bfa, this list is so bad lol, forgets to mention DR and everything, yeah something is great at a stun, but 20secs later its 100% immune to stun, in a high key that can be the reason for a wipe and monk is great but monk is pointless unless the rest are melee or its tides weeks for rop etc. impossible to have a clear cut list like this
I just want to say that I'm very appreciative of you doing your best to clarify the target audience for this video. So many guides like this just state their observations and leave it to the community to decide, and well, the community doesn't do a very good job of determining what actually matters for most of them. Way to go on pointing out that these rankings matter little to the folks outside of the top end of content.
Gebirges I'll talk about it in the ranged video! There are more melee specs than ranged so I did this to keep it from being a 30 minute and a 10 minute video!
So as a Ret Paladin main, I just want to clear some things up for some of the people hating on Dratnos’s assessment of Ret. For the most part, he’s right on the money. Ret is very cooldown dependent (Wings) and has very high burst, but without those cds most of your abilities hit like a wet noodle while you wait for wings again. Utility portion was very accurate as well, most of our abilities are “oh shit” buttons. However, if you learn how to align your cds correctly, spec into the right traits/traits/secondary stats, and know your rotation, you can hit 300K AOE. For anyone wondering how, Major Blood rank 3, secondary Vision and Conflict (or whatever you want as a third choice, I just like the extra vers). Stack 1x Empyrion Power, 2-3 Lights Decrees, 2-3 Avengers Might for traits. Run Divine Purpose as 120 talent. 25% min haste, 20%~ crit, and as much mastery as you can stack. Pop wings, then blood, and Divine Storm your way to the top of the dps meters. The point of the build I refined this expansion is to have Storm proc as often as possible. DP and EP can proc on each other as well which can lead to 8 Divine Storms in a row. A great trinket to use in combination with this is the Vial from Underrot. Make a macro to use the trinket every time you pop wings and instant win. Phial (445) from Radiance is a great secondary trinket to use. The best part of this build is all your cds will be available every 1 minute 40 seconds. Wings with vision is 1:40, Blood is 1:30 and that trinket is 1:30. Disclaimer: this is not a guide, I only wrote this to give some validity to my statement about Ret being bursty but heavily reliant on Cds. Cheers
Inquisition out performs divine purpose in keys and much more consistent. Also perfection major trumps BoTe as you get a smoother curve of damage up time throughout the dungeon, BoTE looks fancy with big burst but leaves your downtime on wings to be very lackluster. Secondaries are very irrelevant and mainly ilvl will play a big role in your dps. For trinkets, 1 on use trinket and one strong stat stick reigns supreme
Rikkycurtis in my personal experience, Visions major doesn’t proc enough for my liking, averaging 1 proc a minute for ~10 seconds. As for the inquisition talent, my build is suited for large aoe pulls, yes inquisition is better throughout the entirety of an instance, but I’m looking for myself and my WW partner to burst down large groups. The extra procs from DP come in handy in that regard. This is just my personal opinion and ret can go many different directions. I saw a guy run 3x Indomitable Justice traits and destroyed bosses with Judgements, kind a meme build but very cool to see
Rikkycurtis are you saying this based on sims or experience ? Cause I’ve always had a better overall experience w DP over Inq in mythic plus - also it depends on which traits you’re stacking imo - if inq works/worked better for you then that’s awesome Buff RET PALZZZ
Paladins are in a good spot. Really there is so many different options on how you build and each build has strengths and weaknesses! Also, a crusade build with blood is something I found fun. Your going to see some big numbers in big pulls!
The only reason I'm not entirely happy that enhancement didnt make it was that there's one pushing some of the upper limits of keys. Survival and Feral are, to put it kindly, just under performing entirely. But I would have liked to see any spec that crossed 3500 io to be considered a real and viable spec. Being that Survivals highest io is around 2800 and feral is around 2900 if I'm not mistaken, having an enhancement almost hitting 3700 seems kind of unfair.
One thing you didn’t mention for Paladin utility is Wake of Ashes. Wake of Ashes is a forward facing cone strike that stuns undead and demons and hits everything with a 50% movement debuff. Wake of Ashes is notable in AD where you can interrupt both skeleton’s Bulwark of Juju at the same time by stunning them.
He gave 4 points for utility on dk when its mainly just a brez thats only useful like once a raid. Its gamechanging when you need it but most of the time dks have 0 utility. Honestly should be a 2 here Mob control: dks only have single target ccs and all of them have long cds. Death grip has 20seconds, chains of ice shouldnt even be considered under mob control when it is spec'd for burst damage every 50 seconds. Again, almost 0 mob control and yet gets a 4/5 Survivability: dks have 0 physical reduction save for ibf which only happens once every 3 mins. Using death strike for lifesteal would decrease dps exponentially because frost dk skills require multiple stacks of different buffs and debuffs to be applied in a short time frame Definitely misleading, its a class that looks good on paper but absolute dumpsterfire when played with the current meta specs
I understand why you skip over the highly non-meta melees (sham, hunt, druid), but I'd prefer if you hadn't. Non-inclusion doesn't help for decent players of those classes, who often struggle for finding pugs that overly rely 'meta lists' to tell them what is acceptable to play. And for those more open minded who happen to see an enhance shaman in queue with decent gear & rio, it would be nice to have an idea of how the spec balances out, strengths & weaknesses compared to the better ones. A nicer compromise like talking about them in shorter length at the end, or maybe mentioning how/why they fall behind the more 'meta' specs for those classes.
@@cankural2501 yeah I get you. But imagine I'm fairly new (1 season), highest keys I've times are 17, and with pugs. So I fully understand meta isn't as important as skill at this point... And would like to know what classes offer (assume even Rio). If no guide explains, it's hard to do so.
@@Tensooni well ench shaman is like ele shaman except no aoe burst and melee, surv hunter not good dmg with not good utility, feral druid okey dmg with no burst with in combat res and some utility. Thats about it really.
ClAsS HoMOgEniZaTiOn... says blizzard. Wouldn't want 4 melee specs with an aoe stun. And don't get me started on SW:D - an ability that's been baseline for as long as I can remember. Smh
They say warriors was OP in legion with the stun , needs more homogenization and now look and DH , powerful ST and AoE , aoe Stun, immunity, healing , the only downside in DH it's there are TONS of them ... and warriors says ok just give shockwave back and blizzards repond nope it's too OP looooool
@@ragerblitz821 thats what ive been saying as well. We even have to spec away mobility for that single target stun + the aoe is capped. If mass pulls is gonna be the next thing and we dont get shockwave back we're fucked.
Another thing to note for death knight grip is it can also be used to interrupt some mobs. There's been times I've used it that way in a pinch when pug groups miss interrupts
"I am not going to cover druid, they are played mostly as ranged in mythic+." While I agree, that still hurts a little. Feral got little love this xpac.
It sucks that blizzard will never ever buff ferals. They have been asking for buffs ever since they start of legion and still blizzard ignored all the players request to buff ferals. Seems like blizzard just give up on the spec and refuse to touch it. They will never be good in m+ or in raids ever.
@@maxcrayola3074 You do understand how busted feral used to be right? It's hard to work with the class fantasy and keep it balanced... I mean I think since Rogues are in such a good spot they should just buff the shit out of feral, but they will probably nerf rogue and DH before they buff feral.
@@Osprey1994 even if they buff ferals and they now do more damage than rogues and DH. They still won't be brought to progression raids by the cutting edge guilds cause just like enhancement, ferals have low survivability and dont bring good utility during raids. There's just better melees to bring. The reason why blizzard probably won't ever touch ferals is cause none plays them. While there's thousands of rogues and dh players that it's easier to get feedback on those classes on what to nerf and what to buff.
An important thing to note about end game fury warriors. They stack the trait Cold Steel, Hot Blood. Which not only is a huge source of damage, its also a huge source of healing. In large pulls the warrior can basically sustain himself.
lets be honest the only classes that will ever be brought in for super high keys are rogues DHs and WW monks maybe just look back at the MDI where every group had 3 rogues
You're a season out of date for that - the last MDI had almost no triple rogue comps, and 1 rogue was the most common. 23 maps, 69 melee dps, 27 DKs, 31 Rogues, 11 WW.
MDI is a poor benchmark for class balance, since its not super high keys, and in many cases revolves around overpulling, which heavily favors ie. DKs, but might not always be viable outside of the tournament.
I mean just go to the raider io website click on "all class and roles" leader board and every single dps on there except for a very few players are all rogues DHs or monks
On Monk you forgot the Disable Root which can have a very strong niche when you can spam root on every mob to avoid them getting to the tank or to simply kite to survive.
forgot piercing howl for warrior too that is a decent aoe 50% slow that can be spammed if needed for a tank to kite some yet listed DH smaller aoe slow that has like a 15sec cd that only lasts what 5sec
Since some mention no one plays SV hunter, I main one. Top of the charts for my spec, a fun spec to play if you know what you are supposed to do. I don't want to play brain dead specs, so I prefer something more challenging. Many shout outs to those who play a class that requires skill. Anyway, go ahead and comment, give some salty remarks, really don't care.
Well rogue, but he also have rogue 5/5 survivability while paladin got 4/5. Yeah the Plate armor, bubble, bop, lay on handy, own heal, blessings or the shield is probably not enough.
don't really have to imagine very hard if you played fury in legion keys (or maybe watch old videos of it). odyns fury, war machine talent, lack of target cap, and convergence made it incredible to play in m+. i couldnt push my buttons fast enough.
@@TheCheesyBanana I didn't get the chance to play much fury in Legion unfortunately. I was playing frost DK and fire mage. Swapped to fury in BfA though and loooved it. If only I could've experienced the lack of target cap. With its current tuning, fury would probably be hands down the best damage dealer if there were no target cap in its current form.
Monk survivabilty is amazing, seems like he's abit lost there? Or doesn't he count ToC and roll for survivabilty? Same with mobcontroll, you can taunt and kite mobs better than prolly any class. Roll, tigers lust, FsK, transcendance, plus we got a 70% slow plus the other slow (cant remeber the name)
Congrats on joining Method. This list feels like you first ranked the classes then distributed the points. It sounds like you end up with the total score and then reducr on parts where you see fit. Warrior has the same survivability with monk? İt
One or two things about fury warriors that weren't mentioned. Cold steel, hot blood does scale insanely well. It's a dot that can crit and the ability also heals big numbers. My healing/overhealing with 41% crit is just insane. You can also spread the dot to multiple targets... 5 mobs at once but spam bloodthirsty every cd to spread the dot to multiple targets. I just love bigger 10+ mobs pulls when you can dot most of the mobs and see BIG numbers. That scales well with the blood of the enemy. I can't wait to see patch 8.3 and new crit gear. Ps. Piercing howl is great aoe slow :)
Jere Savolainen yeah CSHB scales insanely to 5 but above 5 it's still not great, especially since you can't easily choose which mobs get hit by each bloodthirst! Piercing howl (and even incidental dragon's roar slows) would have been good to mention for sure!
@@dratnos It's rng for sure but with really high grit you can spread the dot almost endlessly with normal aoe rotation. Plus more the dot you spread... more healing you take + minor rage generated. Normally people forget how much CSHB actually heals. If normal run you deal like 13M CSHB damage... You also heal/leach that amount.
Cryptfist ! ofcourse there is meta but if you really like a class u can compete, by example i know for a fact feral can do good, same with enhancement, just very few players, general point is u can make it work a load of it is playstyle and skills
I genuinely would like an answer to this question. How far do you delve into each class when testing their damage in a raid environment? For example let's say you do a total testing of 40 raid clears, and 250 mythic+ was each spec represented equally?
Monk Survivability seems unfair, especially since you took points from DK for lack of mobility. Roll/Chi Torpedo allows them to jump out of the fire and back in combat in 3 seconds while other classes have to run.
Where would you put Survival Hunters in this? How would you describe their utility? I'm unable to switch specs, this one's way more enjoyable than the others.
I dont run high keys but i am curious, are shamans and hunters really that pigeonholed into ranged specs? Or is it just generally considered better but not required? Thanks
Surv is good. idk why so many people don't get good at it. All I played for a long time when bfa came out. Rarely saw anyone kill anything faster than me.
The specs are generally weaker than their ranged counterpart and so unpopular that if you queue for dungeons as hunter, shaman or druid's melee spec, you should write it in the note.
Not a single mention of control undead? for frost it's the ultimate control ability since not only does it completely remove a mob from the pack but it turns them against the pack.
its a good list for the start of 8,3 , but when the paladin can get there 4 essence its done according to data. they just do 9,7% more AOE DPS than the next fallow up class the rest and the survivability is just way too high.
I don t think WW Monks are only a 2/5 in Survivability. You have 2 defensive cooldowns with Karma and the second one beiing either vs physical or magical dmg which you can actively choose before going into a dungeon. If you choose Diffuse Magic for example you can also dispell almost everything off yourself. For example in Boralus on last Boss. And why would you mention WDP as something bad for survivability? If you count that to survivability you could also count movement abilities to survivability, which monks have a lot. Overall a really solid rating but I was really confused on this part.
Returning Vanilla player here. I was maining Combat Rogue in 2004/5, and I just got my Outlaw Rogue to 120... looks like I inadvertently picked a good class/spec to raid with!
Not sure if it would affect the their score but Fury has a spammable aoe snare with Howling Cry. 50% slow for 15 secs, I believe. Really nice when having to kite and don't have a frost mage or assassination rogue for slows.
"Player skill generally outweighs the class that they play" - oh stop it. You and everyone else knows that is simply not true. It doesn't matter if an enh sham queued to your group is like world first from previous expansion, nobody will take him because he is an enh sham.
Thats not the point of that statement. It means that you can be good and even better than other classes. That some players don't care about that is something else entirely.
I'm surprised that Fury Warrior's CSHB trait wasn't considered in the Survivability section, seeing how that trait alone provides most of the recovery and sustain outside of passive damage reduction. Great video with some very interesting points, though! Happy new year!
engineering brez is extremely situational as they need to be on top of the dead character and stand still while casting which is not an option on alot of boss fights sure maybe for trash but why would you brez for trash?
I know DPS is alot to cover, but I greatly appreciate the review including all spec across an equal weighting. The format for this series is great, but the inclusion of all specs is what makes this far better now than the first installment of this series several patches ago. Now, this is a fantastic ranking video which I look forward to in the future
What is the target bar addon I see everyone using in videos such as this? In BFA I have great difficulty selecting different targets in packs and this looks like a boon.
Unfortunately I don’t think Dratnos has seen paladin damage in high keys. In large cleave groups paladins tend to top the meters by miles ending with very high overalls (60k+ in 8.2). I’d give paladin 9/10 for damage due to weak single target. Everything else seems about right.
60k+ is not very high, have u seen a dh doing 78k overall in shrine +25? That is call very high overall. Paladin dps problem is their damage profile is not sustain. While it has wing, pally can do huge damage but once they r out of wings they do like tank damage.
@@DevilKyaw agreed 60k is pretty standard in high keys. Most good players are pushing 70k and higher, and even if paladins were doing the same 1 rogue can offers more to a group in utility and mob control than 3 paladins
kyawzin thant 60k+ is just an example number. Obviously damage is higher in certain keys like shrine and the higher the key level you do. Personally I have done 65-70k overall but I also was only doing 21/22 keys. I can easily see paladins doing 75k+ in a 25 shrine.
I often hear to play whatever spec is most fun, but whenever I try to get into groups with good enough ilvl I get discriminated against for my spec, what to do?
Make your own group and discriminate other classes by picking the top picks. Usually mythic +12 and onward is very difficult for people so you don't want to waste your time with sub-optimal non-BiS race class combos. And so the wheel spins again. Alternatively reroll to BiS class you begin to hate from day 1 but you can squeeze that 1k dps more which heavily depends on your RNG as you need to do tactics and mechanics everyone fails to do. I hope you find the advice and sarcasm in this. TL;DR make own your own group or reroll.
@@fallefel8132 Thanks I really appreciate your advice, I guess it's motivating to make your own legacy whatever spec you play, just like that guy that plays enhancement shammy
Dratnos is an emissary of m+ lately. So much work done and i hope he is not going to stop making people's m+ lifes a little bit less miserable =) good job!
Idk if they will read this but feral is still pretty competitive and it can preform better than the meta melee classes, utility wise we are same as balance druid all we are missing is beam aoe silence, but what we do have is same utility soothe,hibernate and we can spec into mass roots or typhoon if needed, what we have and balance doesn't have is stampeding roar which can work really good with shroud for bigger pack skips. I'm currently pushing 19-20 keys with sub rogue, fire mage and feral with discipline priest and brewmaster monk tank, feral can play aoe with primal wrath blood talons and blood of the enemy for st consisted life force ,brutal slash and blood talons ,yes alot of people prefer classes that are easier to manage and easier to play than play a class that is really punishing if you screw up your rotation but it can be competitive with other melee classes, me myself can outdps dh or rogue but sometimes I cant due to me screwing up my rotation . I hate it how all these big UA-cam channels leave feral out make it look like the most dead spec in the game ,while I'm progressing mythic and doing high m+ keys and I'm doing pretty good. For me feral brings up the challenge since whole community hates your spec but it's so satisfying once you master it and outdps these meta classes. I know I'm a nobody in this comment selection since I'm to small to have a loud voice . But my goal is to represent my spec and show you guys that is not as dead as people say it is. Love you guys but watching preach skipping ferals for 8.3 and now you guys make a video not even mentioning feral makes me really disappointed. Not here to hate wish all of you who are reading this alot of success and goals .
@@n-hunter1349 first of all learn how to spell a word its "Feral" 2nd of all just cause you dont know how to play it or how u feel about it dosent mean its shit like u say it is . instead of removing feral lets remove outlaw rogue since u can see 3 of them in MDI for all seasons so far. come at me when u got knowledge about m+
I play Combat rogue (first toon I ever made), Ret paladin(half the time I spent as prot), Elemental shaman (I prefer Enh but gearing for enh early on was a pain), Balance druid (sometimes resto). I find all of them fun and entertaining and I usually do similar dps on any one of them on any given key. I bring whatever will benefit the group more. I could never get into DH or Monks. I love Surv but having 4 toons is already time consuming but may pick it back up again soon.
I don't think it was fair to exclude Enhancement, Feral, and Survival from this video. How powerful something is is not directly linked to their popularity. So few people play Feral that every time I join a key peoplee are surprised to see a feral in m+. I'm often the first they've seen in many months. Of course there is a relationship, as people will be drawn towards the specs that are powerful, and so those specs become more popular, and so they have more exposure, leeading to more people playing them, etc. I haven't ran a key this expansion with a survival hunter, so I don't know how powerful they are. I have only ran with one enhancement shaman this patch. By not mentioning these specs in this video, more people will have no reference point for what these specs bring and how they perform. Without an idea of what the spec brings, they're not going to take a risk by inviting the unknown, even if they have an impressive raider.io. I'm a Feral Druid with 2300 io this season, and two days ago I was declined from a 10, with thee leader specifically telling me being feral is a good way to never be invited to a key. I repeat, this was a +10. Players see the meta for completing +25 keys and they adopt the mindset that those comps are the best comps for all key levels. I appreciate you making the disclaimer twice in this video that below the cutting edge of the first and highest keys being completed in the world, playing what you are good at will always be viable. However, I think it would have been more beneficial to educate people on what the three specs in question bring to the group. I would give Feral an 8/10 for damage. I'm stacking Jungle Fury for extra critical strike and Wild Fleshrending for extra damage on Shred and Swipe, as well as taking Predator for constant resets on Tiger's Fury, and Moment of Clarity for extra damage on those generators while also making them free more often. This build gives very high aoe damage as well as high single target damage, which becomes very high if the fight allows you to reset tiger's fury whenever adds die with a bleed on them. This includes Soulbound Goliath (roots) and Harlan Sweete (pirates), as well as any boss during explsoive week, as explosives do bleed. Feral isn't target capped in any way, we cleave in a 360 degree radius around our character for 100% damage, and we have extended melee range like Outlaw Rogues. Feral is not dependent on cooldowns, our three minute cooldown is one of the weakest in the game. This is usually a blessing in most groups, as you never have to wait or plan around your cooldown in order to execute a big pull. However, at the very high levels, when you're coordinating every element of the dungeon and planning around big burst moments, it does mean you don't have as big a burst moment compared to a a Ret Paladin or Havoc Demon Hunter eevery 3-4 minutes. This is holding Feral back from scoring a 10/10. We do consistent damage, and while our AoE is very, very strong, outside of Blood of the Enemy or Focusing Iris, (both of which are great for Feral) we don't have any strong cooldowns to increase our aoe damage. If you're constantly doing big pulls we'll be amazing, but if there will only be 3 big pulls throughout the dungeon where everything is popped at once to clear 20+ mobs, we won't have anything to save for those moments and will look weaker relative to other, burstier specs. Feral brings a lot of powerful utility, but some of it is shared by Restoration Druids, which are very dominant in the current meta. If other healers see stronger representation in the next patch, Feral Druid will indirectly be stronger. Without a Restoration Druid in the group I'd give Feral a 5/5 for utility, and with one in the group I'd give it a 3/5, so I'll average it for an overall utility score of 4/5. We bring a battle rez, typhoon, soothe, a poison and curse dispel, and hibernate, but all of these abilities are shared with a Restoration Druid. Battle Rez is always useful, especially for executing death skips where you want to battle Rez the healer so someone other than the healer needs to be able to battle rez. Typhoon is excellent as a way to kite enemies or as a way to interrupt every mob in the pack at once. Soothe is always valuable in dungeons like King's Rest and Underrot, and is useful in every dungeon on Raging week. Hibernate is a CC that sees situational use. I use it as a guaranteed interrupt on the maggots in UR that is not affected by stun DR. What is unique to Feral is stampeding roar, an aoe 60% movement speed buff for 8 seconds, on a 2 minute cooldown. This is very useful for executing longer shroud skips, boss fights involving mobility like Cragmaw the Infested, and speeding up travel time between packs, especially indoors. Feral also has frequent access to instant cast Regrowth and Entangling Roots, which helps to heal themselves or party members who take spot damage (like on Tyrannical Freehold bosses 1 and 2), or instantly rooting a humanoid mob that's running away, like many mobs in Tol Dagor do. (Once rooted the mob will return to the group when the roots fall off, it won't continue to retreat.) Feral is also unique in that is the only spec in the game with an improved stealth and an out of combat rez. Feral stealth is as good as Rogue stealth, but other Druid specs are more likely to be detected by enemies while stealthing. If a death skip is being used, or if a wipe has happened, a Feral Druid can stealth back to the group very quickly with Dash (sprint) and Stampeding Roar, and resurrect the healer without consuming a battle resurrection, and without the risk of being detected the way a Restoration, Balance, or Guardian Druid might have. We'll also be able to chase the dog with the keys in Freehold without mobs detecting us, once Void Emmisaries will no longer be around. Feral Druids get a 5/5 for survivability. We constantly have access to free, instant healing thanks to instant Regrowth, and our defensive cooldown is one of the strongest in the game, outside of immunities. Survival Instincts is a 50% DR for 6 seconds, and it has two charges on a 2 minute recharge time. We can use this together with Bear Form for an insane amount of mitigation and added health, or can weave between using bear form and Survival Instincts depending on the situation. On Tyrannical bosses like Heartsbane Triad, Bear Form and Survival Instincts will allow me to take a hit from Jagged Nettles and it won't even drop me below 90% hp, even at the +18 to +19 level. Against Tyrannical Eudora we can use Bear Form or Survival Instincts to mitigate every Pistol Shot we're targetted with. Shapeshifting is also a powerful defensive in some scenarios. We're always immune to Soul Thorns from Soubound Goliath in cat form, as well as the Hex cast by Hex Priests in King's Rest. We can shapeshift out of the debuff from Lord Stormsong, two debuffs from the first boss of Shrine, the frost shock from mobs on the King's Rest bridge, and the slow portion of the Virulent Pathogen on Lord and Lady Waycrest. We are also completely immune to the rat traps in Freehold, and can quickly clear them all from the ground by moving over them. I'd give Feral a 3/5 for Mob Control. We can stun targets for 5 seconds with Maim, which is very useful to have access to, but it doesn't do as much damage as Between the Eyes and isn't up as often. We have Typhoon but lack an AoE stun, unless you're a Tauren. We can talent into a second 5 second stun, giving us the ability to stun two targets at once for 5 seconds, but this is on the same talent row as Typhoon and Mass Entanglement. Mass Entanglement is situationally useful on bolstering weeks, but Typhoon is almost always taken outside of those situations. We also have entangling roots, but this is usually a utility tool rather than something you use frequently during the pull to control mobs and the damage they're dealing. My scores add up to a 20/25, which would place it as third in this list if it were on it, slightly higher than monks and DKs. Ferals biggest problems are that we're not a Rogue or Demon Hunter, and the meta is quite rigid when it comes to what groups are wanting to invite to their keys. If you're pushing with a group of friends then you'll do really well playing Feral, but you will often have a hard time pugging. The community perception of Feral is a combination of the belief that we're rubbish or that we don't exist. Feral was in an awful position in season one of this expansion because we had hardly any AoE damage to speak of. That changed in 8.1 but the community perception didn't change to reflect this, because so few people still were playing the spec. People still think they're garbage, either because they were garbage in 8.0 or because no one plays the spec, and they assume that if no one plays the spec it must be because it's garbage, when it's actually because it's got a reputation as a difficult spec to master, and a lot of players don't want to play it because of that. If the spec is always excluded or ignored when discussing melee dps, this community perception is unlikely to change. Of course, this problem is not yours alone to tackle, but I do think you have the platform to influence and educate people, and as a 2300 Feral player who has mained the spec since the Burning Crusade (though played on and off, taking breaks from thee game between Wrath and Warlords), I dream of a day when I'm not laughed at when I apply for a keystone group.
I didn’t read all of it! Community perception and what is being played at the top tier of play will trickle down to the masses. I think player over class is definitely better, but if your pugging well people like meta even for +5 keys lol!
Really awesome video, thank for sharing this with us ! And even though I learned a few things for 8.3, I'm kind of disapointed you didn't talk about enhancement shaman, I main it and I agree they do the exact same thing as elemental, the only real difference is between sundering ( which is a 100% chance ) while elemental is less accurate since earthquake is usable as long as you have maelstrom but only knock down from time to times. Yes elemental is safer because it does the exact same thing overall than the enhancement but at a distance, but still, always being underrated just because of that while they can be really strong.
@@zacharydion1210 the problem with karma is it doesnt always save you you can die with karma pretty quickly in a high key like on 20+ some abillitys oneshot you no matter if you karma or not.
my current arms warrior on aoe pulls of 10+ targets hits around 100 to 200k dps during sweeping strikes and its because of 2 stacks of the seismic wave trait + BOTE
When enhancement wasn't went over in either videos. Makes all enhancement players feel great ya know. Melee video "because we don't want a long video". Ranged video " Not worth going over"
I play SV and it sucks there isn't a video showing them love. I found only 1 really. It takes skill to play this spec. But maybe thats what WoW has become now a bunch of brain dead characters with 4 keys to press.
@@nightraven6497 I mean, 'brain dead characters with 4 keys to press'.... bomb, carve + fillers in AoE, SS, bomb, mb, kc in st... unless you're in raid spec where it's basically just mb, kc, and filler bombs. That's max 4 buttons for any situation. If you can accept there's finesse to SV, you have to accept there's finesse elsewhere.
Im cool with it, its a hidden op, actually insanely strong cleave with short cds for well executed burst. The corrupted agi spear will turn this spec into a powerhouse. They bring uitility with binding shot, tar trap, freezing trap can work like imprison, 30% lust, 4 second stun, and wont lose uptime with aspect of the eagle keeping them out of large pulls with lots of stunning aoe spell.. Not to mention multiple feign death skips that wouldnt be possible
Great video - thanks for posting this! However I do disagree a little with the low score of Paladins There was no mention of Blessing of Kings, which can be somewhat valueable to Tanks While the effect of the "Retribution" passive has niche uses, the buff that increases dmg done by 20% and reduces dmg taken by 30% for 10sec. when someone else dies, I do believe it should be mentioned, as deaths happens No mention of the 70% slow either The utility list seems to be way too strong to not score perfectly Other than that, like the sustain being the Ret weakness, I agree with
I play survival hunter so I understand. And as a feral druid, the spec is rising in numbers. If you know mechanics and how to play, declining someone based on spec or class is idiotic. Dude prolly plays DH which is a brain dead class. Kudos to you, druid, playing a class that requires skill.
@@nightraven6497 I press button. I does damage. I get passive Dodge and mitigation by pressing damage button so I only need focus on moar damage. Very skill. Git gud nubs. Less button moar power. Seriously though, demon hunters are stupid. For people who want to look cool, do massive damage, and do nothing to earn either.
Is DK getting a massive buff or something?? I can understand WW monk begin higher then warrior(by a bit), but no way DK is better then both monk and warrior other then MDIwere u pull full rooms in low'ish keys
Dk seems really overestimated in the video. Mediocre damage He gave most utility points just for the sole brez Mob control is close to non existant. Chains of ice is being used as a long cd burst this meta, most ccs being single target only Survivability with a death strike is no survivability, it only heals a percent portion of damage done and using it breaks your rotation which dks heavily depend on since the skills must stack on each other for it to do any decent damage
For rogues you say sap is 1 of 2 abilities in the game to allow noncombat CC but the other of those 2 doesn't get even a mention for paladin? Also really not buying low single target for ret. It's 2-3 target cleave that is the low spot of their damage profile.
DH with Vision of perfection would gain at least 1 more utility point imo, since it generally pops every 30th second (if not more often) i combat, and can be popped by even taking damage. Otherwise I'd agree.
Completely agree with this ranking :D, and it's how i myself evaluate them when deciding on a comp for some runs. When friends ask me what to play, i answer: Whatever you feel is fun to play, coz if it's fun to play you tend to make some effort into actually get good at what you play.
We'll have full rankings for Mythic+ & Raids covering: Melee, Ranged, Tanks, & Healers this patch!
Of course, play what you want, these are only statistical and apply mostly to people pushing high-end timings/progress
Thanks for watching and happy new year!
Enhancement shamans FeelBadMan
Let’s see how long we can keep Dratnos making tier lists 2x/day. Jk really happy you guys picked him up, his content is what inspired me to start pushing keys more seriously.
Imagine not uploading a " A Decade of rank 1's" montage.
When will the tank one be out ?
I Cant decide to play DH Tank Or DK Tank so i realy want your opinion on these two x.x yes im an edgelord player :P
Good job recruiting Dratnos for this video, he's amazing at making m+ guides.
Max S he is
So true 😊
S tier
dratnos is the man!
>Watch video
>Excited to level and try out a melee class for the first time
>Remember the essence grind
nvm
but with 8.3 its easyier to grind the essence… :)
Essence grinding for M+ Melees is in fact incredibly simple. Major is pretty much set with Yolobeam. Best minor by far is protocoll, which will only require revered and an afternoon of spare parts farming for rank 3 in 8.3 . As second minor, Strife is a top choice for many melees, and only requires rank 2, which is not more than 2 pvp chests and 1k rating.
@@danielahlschlager3769 all of them? or just some ?
@@nikg7126 all of them get a rework to gain the essence.
@@polkhigh_33 what for blood of the enemy ? The worst of all essences :)
It looks like you were correct based on the best ranked runs right now. All DH, Rogue, Mage. But I’d take 3 DH before I’d take 3 rogues
For everyone, who is just here to see the results in points.
1. Rogue: 24/25 Total Points
2. Demon Hunter: 23/25 Total Points
3. Death Knight: 19/25 Total Points
4. Windwalker Monk: 19/25 Total Points
5. Warrior: 17/25 Total Points
6. Paladin 17/25 Total Points
or just put a timestamp
@@idontknow2632 That would be the lazy way. :)
3. Unholy Death Knight?
This score concerns both dk dps specs. Frost is amazing.
i think they haven't logged in since start of bfa, this list is so bad lol, forgets to mention DR and everything, yeah something is great at a stun, but 20secs later its 100% immune to stun, in a high key that can be the reason for a wipe and monk is great but monk is pointless unless the rest are melee or its tides weeks for rop etc.
impossible to have a clear cut list like this
@@adamozz86 Yeah, forgive me for that mistake, i meant both specs not just unholy.
I just want to say that I'm very appreciative of you doing your best to clarify the target audience for this video. So many guides like this just state their observations and leave it to the community to decide, and well, the community doesn't do a very good job of determining what actually matters for most of them. Way to go on pointing out that these rankings matter little to the folks outside of the top end of content.
Cries in Enhancement...
Gebirges I'll talk about it in the ranged video! There are more melee specs than ranged so I did this to keep it from being a 30 minute and a 10 minute video!
Cries in Feral...
@@dratnos nice, I was getting worried I had to re-roll for the first time lol
@@ZeroiusProduction same :'(
Hell me as well
So as a Ret Paladin main, I just want to clear some things up for some of the people hating on Dratnos’s assessment of Ret.
For the most part, he’s right on the money. Ret is very cooldown dependent (Wings) and has very high burst, but without those cds most of your abilities hit like a wet noodle while you wait for wings again. Utility portion was very accurate as well, most of our abilities are “oh shit” buttons.
However, if you learn how to align your cds correctly, spec into the right traits/traits/secondary stats, and know your rotation, you can hit 300K AOE.
For anyone wondering how, Major Blood rank 3, secondary Vision and Conflict (or whatever you want as a third choice, I just like the extra vers). Stack 1x Empyrion Power, 2-3 Lights Decrees, 2-3 Avengers Might for traits. Run Divine Purpose as 120 talent. 25% min haste, 20%~ crit, and as much mastery as you can stack. Pop wings, then blood, and Divine Storm your way to the top of the dps meters. The point of the build I refined this expansion is to have Storm proc as often as possible. DP and EP can proc on each other as well which can lead to 8 Divine Storms in a row. A great trinket to use in combination with this is the Vial from Underrot. Make a macro to use the trinket every time you pop wings and instant win. Phial (445) from Radiance is a great secondary trinket to use.
The best part of this build is all your cds will be available every 1 minute 40 seconds. Wings with vision is 1:40, Blood is 1:30 and that trinket is 1:30.
Disclaimer: this is not a guide, I only wrote this to give some validity to my statement about Ret being bursty but heavily reliant on Cds.
Cheers
Inquisition out performs divine purpose in keys and much more consistent. Also perfection major trumps BoTe as you get a smoother curve of damage up time throughout the dungeon, BoTE looks fancy with big burst but leaves your downtime on wings to be very lackluster. Secondaries are very irrelevant and mainly ilvl will play a big role in your dps. For trinkets, 1 on use trinket and one strong stat stick reigns supreme
Rikkycurtis in my personal experience, Visions major doesn’t proc enough for my liking, averaging 1 proc a minute for ~10 seconds. As for the inquisition talent, my build is suited for large aoe pulls, yes inquisition is better throughout the entirety of an instance, but I’m looking for myself and my WW partner to burst down large groups. The extra procs from DP come in handy in that regard. This is just my personal opinion and ret can go many different directions. I saw a guy run 3x Indomitable Justice traits and destroyed bosses with Judgements, kind a meme build but very cool to see
Rikkycurtis are you saying this based on sims or experience ? Cause I’ve always had a better overall experience w DP over Inq in mythic plus - also it depends on which traits you’re stacking imo - if inq works/worked better for you then that’s awesome
Buff RET PALZZZ
Paladins are in a good spot. Really there is so many different options on how you build and each build has strengths and weaknesses!
Also, a crusade build with blood is something I found fun. Your going to see some big numbers in big pulls!
@@CoolioAintGotShiONMe based on exp and sims mate. It is irrelevant what trait you stack. Its not an opinion, it's a fact that dp is worse
The only reason I'm not entirely happy that enhancement didnt make it was that there's one pushing some of the upper limits of keys. Survival and Feral are, to put it kindly, just under performing entirely. But I would have liked to see any spec that crossed 3500 io to be considered a real and viable spec. Being that Survivals highest io is around 2800 and feral is around 2900 if I'm not mistaken, having an enhancement almost hitting 3700 seems kind of unfair.
Just a huge carry bro 😂 jk
I think you underestimate the utility of Death Grip, it can interrupt a ton of dangerous uninterruptible pulls.
One thing you didn’t mention for Paladin utility is Wake of Ashes. Wake of Ashes is a forward facing cone strike that stuns undead and demons and hits everything with a 50% movement debuff. Wake of Ashes is notable in AD where you can interrupt both skeleton’s Bulwark of Juju at the same time by stunning them.
The fact that u recruited him is awsome he is geeking and epic with contenet
Paladin Survivability 4/5. Yeah, Bubble, Heals, a shield, plate armor, Lay on Hands and BoP. How can a rogue have 5/5 while the Paladin has 4/5.
Ye I was laughing at that haahha,and utility 4/5 when paladins got like 7-8 spells for utility lel
Cheat death.
@@meowdy.. dude only useful thing is his stealth aura.
he didn't even consider divine steed, and he did give points to other classes for mobility. imo Paladin deserves 5/5 in both utility and survivability
He gave 4 points for utility on dk when its mainly just a brez thats only useful like once a raid. Its gamechanging when you need it but most of the time dks have 0 utility. Honestly should be a 2 here
Mob control: dks only have single target ccs and all of them have long cds. Death grip has 20seconds, chains of ice shouldnt even be considered under mob control when it is spec'd for burst damage every 50 seconds. Again, almost 0 mob control and yet gets a 4/5
Survivability: dks have 0 physical reduction save for ibf which only happens once every 3 mins. Using death strike for lifesteal would decrease dps exponentially because frost dk skills require multiple stacks of different buffs and debuffs to be applied in a short time frame
Definitely misleading, its a class that looks good on paper but absolute dumpsterfire when played with the current meta specs
I understand why you skip over the highly non-meta melees (sham, hunt, druid), but I'd prefer if you hadn't. Non-inclusion doesn't help for decent players of those classes, who often struggle for finding pugs that overly rely 'meta lists' to tell them what is acceptable to play. And for those more open minded who happen to see an enhance shaman in queue with decent gear & rio, it would be nice to have an idea of how the spec balances out, strengths & weaknesses compared to the better ones.
A nicer compromise like talking about them in shorter length at the end, or maybe mentioning how/why they fall behind the more 'meta' specs for those classes.
yeah but they suck, ofc if you are doing low keys I mean lower than 20 you take higher rio guy.
forgot to mention it only applies if you have a rog in group allready :)
@@cankural2501 yeah I get you. But imagine I'm fairly new (1 season), highest keys I've times are 17, and with pugs. So I fully understand meta isn't as important as skill at this point... And would like to know what classes offer (assume even Rio). If no guide explains, it's hard to do so.
I used to play survival too
@@Tensooni well ench shaman is like ele shaman except no aoe burst and melee, surv hunter not good dmg with not good utility, feral druid okey dmg with no burst with in combat res and some utility. Thats about it really.
I won’t be covering enhancement...whelp that was a quick video
same with me, i main sv and as alt i play enhancer. And i was like after 30seconds, welp great video guys, gj putting so much work in it XD
same for me with feral
feels bad as an enhance, feral and surv hunter alt player who mains a ret paladin
yea, i main sv and alt enhancer lol, but both are great even in 18keys, higher i wasnt inv till now ^^
Guys I main Shadow Priest and just finished leveling Ret Pala and saw this video... Feelsbadman
@@NK-ev2ir this vid is outdated, watch the rnage version. Bm hunter sucks in this list but is top tier right now
lmao ripp
Why warrior haven't gotten shockwave back for their dps spec is beyond me.
Shadow Word: Death is a talent is beyond me
ClAsS HoMOgEniZaTiOn... says blizzard. Wouldn't want 4 melee specs with an aoe stun. And don't get me started on SW:D - an ability that's been baseline for as long as I can remember. Smh
They say warriors was OP in legion with the stun , needs more homogenization and now look and DH , powerful ST and AoE , aoe Stun, immunity, healing , the only downside in DH it's there are TONS of them ... and warriors says ok just give shockwave back and blizzards repond nope it's too OP looooool
@@ragerblitz821 thats what ive been saying as well. We even have to spec away mobility for that single target stun + the aoe is capped. If mass pulls is gonna be the next thing and we dont get shockwave back we're fucked.
DiiViinE I miss MOP
imagine ppl talking about melees but hunter shamy and druid are not covered even tho the spec isnt played much its still bad
It feels bad, even though enhancement has been so fun I am thinking of switching to elemental 😢 Or maybe just power through and stay true to Thor!
Another thing to note for death knight grip is it can also be used to interrupt some mobs. There's been times I've used it that way in a pinch when pug groups miss interrupts
"I am not going to cover druid, they are played mostly as ranged in mythic+." While I agree, that still hurts a little. Feral got little love this xpac.
It sucks that blizzard will never ever buff ferals. They have been asking for buffs ever since they start of legion and still blizzard ignored all the players request to buff ferals. Seems like blizzard just give up on the spec and refuse to touch it. They will never be good in m+ or in raids ever.
He covers feral in the other vid derp.
@@maxcrayola3074 You do understand how busted feral used to be right? It's hard to work with the class fantasy and keep it balanced... I mean I think since Rogues are in such a good spot they should just buff the shit out of feral, but they will probably nerf rogue and DH before they buff feral.
@@Osprey1994 even if they buff ferals and they now do more damage than rogues and DH. They still won't be brought to progression raids by the cutting edge guilds cause just like enhancement, ferals have low survivability and dont bring good utility during raids. There's just better melees to bring. The reason why blizzard probably won't ever touch ferals is cause none plays them. While there's thousands of rogues and dh players that it's easier to get feedback on those classes on what to nerf and what to buff.
An important thing to note about end game fury warriors. They stack the trait Cold Steel, Hot Blood. Which not only is a huge source of damage, its also a huge source of healing. In large pulls the warrior can basically sustain himself.
Eliminates enh, feral, surv.
So, literally rogue and havoc is left. Great vid.
Dratnos of Method ?? Whatt? :D
My exact thought aswell, good for him.
Yeah method tweeted idk a month ago he was picked up
Matt and Ryan? From Supermega?
lets be honest the only classes that will ever be brought in for super high keys are rogues DHs and WW monks maybe just look back at the MDI where every group had 3 rogues
what does the one thing have to do with the other?
You're a season out of date for that - the last MDI had almost no triple rogue comps, and 1 rogue was the most common. 23 maps, 69 melee dps, 27 DKs, 31 Rogues, 11 WW.
MDI is a poor benchmark for class balance, since its not super high keys, and in many cases revolves around overpulling, which heavily favors ie. DKs, but might not always be viable outside of the tournament.
I mean just go to the raider io website click on "all class and roles" leader board and every single dps on there except for a very few players are all rogues DHs or monks
@@merrk2013 You're the one who said MDI, where there were no 3 rogue comps.
On Monk you forgot the Disable Root which can have a very strong niche when you can spam root on every mob to avoid them getting to the tank or to simply kite to survive.
forgot piercing howl for warrior too that is a decent aoe 50% slow that can be spammed if needed for a tank to kite some yet listed DH smaller aoe slow that has like a 15sec cd that only lasts what 5sec
Since some mention no one plays SV hunter, I main one. Top of the charts for my spec, a fun spec to play if you know what you are supposed to do. I don't want to play brain dead specs, so I prefer something more challenging. Many shout outs to those who play a class that requires skill. Anyway, go ahead and comment, give some salty remarks, really don't care.
Which DPS class has more utility than retribution paladin(since it got 4/5 )?
Well rogue, but he also have rogue 5/5 survivability while paladin got 4/5. Yeah the Plate armor, bubble, bop, lay on handy, own heal, blessings or the shield is probably not enough.
Remove 5 target cap from warrior. Imagine those numbers. One can dream.
don't really have to imagine very hard if you played fury in legion keys (or maybe watch old videos of it). odyns fury, war machine talent, lack of target cap, and convergence made it incredible to play in m+. i couldnt push my buttons fast enough.
@@TheCheesyBanana I didn't get the chance to play much fury in Legion unfortunately. I was playing frost DK and fire mage. Swapped to fury in BfA though and loooved it. If only I could've experienced the lack of target cap. With its current tuning, fury would probably be hands down the best damage dealer if there were no target cap in its current form.
Monk survivabilty is amazing, seems like he's abit lost there? Or doesn't he count ToC and roll for survivabilty? Same with mobcontroll, you can taunt and kite mobs better than prolly any class. Roll, tigers lust, FsK, transcendance, plus we got a 70% slow plus the other slow (cant remeber the name)
Congrats on joining Method. This list feels like you first ranked the classes then distributed the points. It sounds like you end up with the total score and then reducr on parts where you see fit. Warrior has the same survivability with monk? İt
One or two things about fury warriors that weren't mentioned. Cold steel, hot blood does scale insanely well. It's a dot that can crit and the ability also heals big numbers. My healing/overhealing with 41% crit is just insane. You can also spread the dot to multiple targets... 5 mobs at once but spam bloodthirsty every cd to spread the dot to multiple targets. I just love bigger 10+ mobs pulls when you can dot most of the mobs and see BIG numbers. That scales well with the blood of the enemy. I can't wait to see patch 8.3 and new crit gear. Ps. Piercing howl is great aoe slow :)
Jere Savolainen yeah CSHB scales insanely to 5 but above 5 it's still not great, especially since you can't easily choose which mobs get hit by each bloodthirst! Piercing howl (and even incidental dragon's roar slows) would have been good to mention for sure!
@@dratnos It's rng for sure but with really high grit you can spread the dot almost endlessly with normal aoe rotation. Plus more the dot you spread... more healing you take + minor rage generated. Normally people forget how much CSHB actually heals. If normal run you deal like 13M CSHB damage... You also heal/leach that amount.
I’m always wondering why you don’t mention fury’s aoe slow in your videos. You don’t have to talent it like other classes, just costs a bit rage.
I wish that the feral druid and enhancement shaman would be on par with other classes.
He’s putting them in range due to not making it a 30 min video
Cryptfist ! ofcourse there is meta but if you really like a class u can compete, by example i know for a fact feral can do good, same with enhancement, just very few players, general point is u can make it work a load of it is playstyle and skills
I genuinely would like an answer to this question. How far do you delve into each class when testing their damage in a raid environment? For example let's say you do a total testing of 40 raid clears, and 250 mythic+ was each spec represented equally?
Feral isn’t even considered a spec anymore D:
Can’t even remember the last time I saw a feral dps in m+. Unfortunate
Feral is cursed by having resto/balance as other options.
I am the highest ranked feral m+ i beat balance druids and he hasnt mentioned how well played class can do
What about enhancement shaman, if ur not going to do them all dont it at all
I legit came to see how's enhancement hanging with the rest of meta boys. F
F
Heg right my man..... enhance is so underrated
Came here for the same reason
Yusssss Dratnos hype. Best up and coming wow youtuber by farrrr
Monk Survivability seems unfair, especially since you took points from DK for lack of mobility. Roll/Chi Torpedo allows them to jump out of the fire and back in combat in 3 seconds while other classes have to run.
Where would you put Survival Hunters in this? How would you describe their utility? I'm unable to switch specs, this one's way more enjoyable than the others.
Just a technical question: Wake of Ashes slow & stun effects hav been removed since Dazar'alor patch or did you just ignore them completely?
I dont run high keys but i am curious, are shamans and hunters really that pigeonholed into ranged specs? Or is it just generally considered better but not required? Thanks
Surv is good. idk why so many people don't get good at it. All I played for a long time when bfa came out. Rarely saw anyone kill anything faster than me.
The specs are generally weaker than their ranged counterpart and so unpopular that if you queue for dungeons as hunter, shaman or druid's melee spec, you should write it in the note.
Clicking a method video and then hearing the dratnos intro kinda threw me off, had to double check if I clicked the correct video :D
same :D
What is dratnos
I clicked on this vid thinking, "I wonder what enhancement shaman is ranked at ?" LOL...fml
Thought the same for Sv hunter.
@@montezuma0000 SV hunter needs to be removed from the game... Go back to WOTLK or Cata when we were dot focused.
Not a single mention of control undead? for frost it's the ultimate control ability since not only does it completely remove a mob from the pack but it turns them against the pack.
its a good list for the start of 8,3 , but when the paladin can get there 4 essence its done according to data. they just do 9,7% more AOE DPS than the next fallow up class the rest and the survivability is just way too high.
I don t think WW Monks are only a 2/5 in Survivability. You have 2 defensive cooldowns with Karma and the second one beiing either vs physical or magical dmg which you can actively choose before going into a dungeon. If you choose Diffuse Magic for example you can also dispell almost everything off yourself. For example in Boralus on last Boss. And why would you mention WDP as something bad for survivability? If you count that to survivability you could also count movement abilities to survivability, which monks have a lot. Overall a really solid rating but I was really confused on this part.
For the love of all that is holy make some Method branded bedding so I do not have to stare at the dinosaurs when this man makes his own videos...
I’m curious how Ret survivability isn’t 5/5. Really great breakdown and I really enjoyed this format, looking forward to more. New sub from me.
Yeah no shit they’re insane! Every time I’ve played beside one they’re immense
As a ret player, i think that if you dont have horse cd up or immunity, you can easily get cucked but thats based on the player using his cds
Returning Vanilla player here. I was maining Combat Rogue in 2004/5, and I just got my Outlaw Rogue to 120... looks like I inadvertently picked a good class/spec to raid with!
Not sure if it would affect the their score but Fury has a spammable aoe snare with Howling Cry. 50% slow for 15 secs, I believe. Really nice when having to kite and don't have a frost mage or assassination rogue for slows.
"Player skill generally outweighs the class that they play" - oh stop it. You and everyone else knows that is simply not true. It doesn't matter if an enh sham queued to your group is like world first from previous expansion, nobody will take him because he is an enh sham.
Thats not the point of that statement. It means that you can be good and even better than other classes.
That some players don't care about that is something else entirely.
And that’s just the truth 👌🏼 cause people think since it’s an enhance it must suck 😢
It's pve
Great presentation and nicely put Dratnos
That´s not Dratnos. He would have used tier list!
I saw this video and was like "Janice where you at?" Clicked play and bam. There he was.
No dino pillow tho
@@SmokerFace12 😭
@@myspaceimnic nvm it was there later in the video. All good
I'm surprised that Fury Warrior's CSHB trait wasn't considered in the Survivability section, seeing how that trait alone provides most of the recovery and sustain outside of passive damage reduction. Great video with some very interesting points, though! Happy new year!
S Tier choice for Dratnos working with Method!
For the classes without brez, how much would you bump their score if they got Engineering?
engineering brez is extremely situational as they need to be on top of the dead character and stand still while casting which is not an option on alot of boss fights sure maybe for trash but why would you brez for trash?
@@limerrick627 + it might fail anyways.
I know DPS is alot to cover, but I greatly appreciate the review including all spec across an equal weighting. The format for this series is great, but the inclusion of all specs is what makes this far better now than the first installment of this series several patches ago. Now, this is a fantastic ranking video which I look forward to in the future
What is the target bar addon I see everyone using in videos such as this? In BFA I have great difficulty selecting different targets in packs and this looks like a boon.
For DK you negated wraith walk? Icebound fortitude?
i thought they were capping unholy's aoe so that it doesnt scale infinitly anymore in 8.3? or did they scrap that.
Unfortunately I don’t think Dratnos has seen paladin damage in high keys. In large cleave groups paladins tend to top the meters by miles ending with very high overalls (60k+ in 8.2). I’d give paladin 9/10 for damage due to weak single target. Everything else seems about right.
i dont think anyone has seen paladins in high keys , they make up 1.8% of all dps in +20 and above
60k+ is not very high, have u seen a dh doing 78k overall in shrine +25? That is call very high overall. Paladin dps problem is their damage profile is not sustain. While it has wing, pally can do huge damage but once they r out of wings they do like tank damage.
@@DevilKyaw agreed 60k is pretty standard in high keys. Most good players are pushing 70k and higher, and even if paladins were doing the same 1 rogue can offers more to a group in utility and mob control than 3 paladins
kyawzin thant 60k+ is just an example number. Obviously damage is higher in certain keys like shrine and the higher the key level you do. Personally I have done 65-70k overall but I also was only doing 21/22 keys. I can easily see paladins doing 75k+ in a 25 shrine.
I often hear to play whatever spec is most fun, but whenever I try to get into groups with good enough ilvl I get discriminated against for my spec, what to do?
Make your own group and discriminate other classes by picking the top picks. Usually mythic +12 and onward is very difficult for people so you don't want to waste your time with sub-optimal non-BiS race class combos. And so the wheel spins again. Alternatively reroll to BiS class you begin to hate from day 1 but you can squeeze that 1k dps more which heavily depends on your RNG as you need to do tactics and mechanics everyone fails to do.
I hope you find the advice and sarcasm in this.
TL;DR make own your own group or reroll.
@@fallefel8132 Thanks I really appreciate your advice, I guess it's motivating to make your own legacy whatever spec you play, just like that guy that plays enhancement shammy
Dratnos is an emissary of m+ lately. So much work done and i hope he is not going to stop making people's m+ lifes a little bit less miserable =) good job!
Idk if they will read this but feral is still pretty competitive and it can preform better than the meta melee classes, utility wise we are same as balance druid all we are missing is beam aoe silence, but what we do have is same utility soothe,hibernate and we can spec into mass roots or typhoon if needed, what we have and balance doesn't have is stampeding roar which can work really good with shroud for bigger pack skips. I'm currently pushing 19-20 keys with sub rogue, fire mage and feral with discipline priest and brewmaster monk tank, feral can play aoe with primal wrath blood talons and blood of the enemy for st consisted life force ,brutal slash and blood talons ,yes alot of people prefer classes that are easier to manage and easier to play than play a class that is really punishing if you screw up your rotation but it can be competitive with other melee classes, me myself can outdps dh or rogue but sometimes I cant due to me screwing up my rotation . I hate it how all these big UA-cam channels leave feral out make it look like the most dead spec in the game ,while I'm progressing mythic and doing high m+ keys and I'm doing pretty good. For me feral brings up the challenge since whole community hates your spec but it's so satisfying once you master it and outdps these meta classes. I know I'm a nobody in this comment selection since I'm to small to have a loud voice . But my goal is to represent my spec and show you guys that is not as dead as people say it is. Love you guys but watching preach skipping ferals for 8.3 and now you guys make a video not even mentioning feral makes me really disappointed. Not here to hate wish all of you who are reading this alot of success and goals .
Farel sucks dude the class game play make me feel like I wanna kill my self if only remove this useless class from the game
@@n-hunter1349 first of all learn how to spell a word its "Feral" 2nd of all just cause you dont know how to play it or how u feel about it dosent mean its shit like u say it is . instead of removing feral lets remove outlaw rogue since u can see 3 of them in MDI for all seasons so far. come at me when u got knowledge about m+
Good job on getting Dratnos on board
I play Combat rogue (first toon I ever made), Ret paladin(half the time I spent as prot), Elemental shaman (I prefer Enh but gearing for enh early on was a pain), Balance druid (sometimes resto).
I find all of them fun and entertaining and I usually do similar dps on any one of them on any given key. I bring whatever will benefit the group more. I could never get into DH or Monks. I love Surv but having 4 toons is already time consuming but may pick it back up again soon.
you miss some dk deffence cooldowns " Icebound Fortitude" for 20% dmg
reduction and stun immunity "Wraith Walk" for snare immunity
I don't think it was fair to exclude Enhancement, Feral, and Survival from this video. How powerful something is is not directly linked to their popularity. So few people play Feral that every time I join a key peoplee are surprised to see a feral in m+. I'm often the first they've seen in many months. Of course there is a relationship, as people will be drawn towards the specs that are powerful, and so those specs become more popular, and so they have more exposure, leeading to more people playing them, etc. I haven't ran a key this expansion with a survival hunter, so I don't know how powerful they are. I have only ran with one enhancement shaman this patch. By not mentioning these specs in this video, more people will have no reference point for what these specs bring and how they perform. Without an idea of what the spec brings, they're not going to take a risk by inviting the unknown, even if they have an impressive raider.io. I'm a Feral Druid with 2300 io this season, and two days ago I was declined from a 10, with thee leader specifically telling me being feral is a good way to never be invited to a key. I repeat, this was a +10. Players see the meta for completing +25 keys and they adopt the mindset that those comps are the best comps for all key levels. I appreciate you making the disclaimer twice in this video that below the cutting edge of the first and highest keys being completed in the world, playing what you are good at will always be viable. However, I think it would have been more beneficial to educate people on what the three specs in question bring to the group.
I would give Feral an 8/10 for damage. I'm stacking Jungle Fury for extra critical strike and Wild Fleshrending for extra damage on Shred and Swipe, as well as taking Predator for constant resets on Tiger's Fury, and Moment of Clarity for extra damage on those generators while also making them free more often. This build gives very high aoe damage as well as high single target damage, which becomes very high if the fight allows you to reset tiger's fury whenever adds die with a bleed on them. This includes Soulbound Goliath (roots) and Harlan Sweete (pirates), as well as any boss during explsoive week, as explosives do bleed. Feral isn't target capped in any way, we cleave in a 360 degree radius around our character for 100% damage, and we have extended melee range like Outlaw Rogues. Feral is not dependent on cooldowns, our three minute cooldown is one of the weakest in the game. This is usually a blessing in most groups, as you never have to wait or plan around your cooldown in order to execute a big pull. However, at the very high levels, when you're coordinating every element of the dungeon and planning around big burst moments, it does mean you don't have as big a burst moment compared to a a Ret Paladin or Havoc Demon Hunter eevery 3-4 minutes. This is holding Feral back from scoring a 10/10. We do consistent damage, and while our AoE is very, very strong, outside of Blood of the Enemy or Focusing Iris, (both of which are great for Feral) we don't have any strong cooldowns to increase our aoe damage. If you're constantly doing big pulls we'll be amazing, but if there will only be 3 big pulls throughout the dungeon where everything is popped at once to clear 20+ mobs, we won't have anything to save for those moments and will look weaker relative to other, burstier specs.
Feral brings a lot of powerful utility, but some of it is shared by Restoration Druids, which are very dominant in the current meta. If other healers see stronger representation in the next patch, Feral Druid will indirectly be stronger. Without a Restoration Druid in the group I'd give Feral a 5/5 for utility, and with one in the group I'd give it a 3/5, so I'll average it for an overall utility score of 4/5. We bring a battle rez, typhoon, soothe, a poison and curse dispel, and hibernate, but all of these abilities are shared with a Restoration Druid. Battle Rez is always useful, especially for executing death skips where you want to battle Rez the healer so someone other than the healer needs to be able to battle rez. Typhoon is excellent as a way to kite enemies or as a way to interrupt every mob in the pack at once. Soothe is always valuable in dungeons like King's Rest and Underrot, and is useful in every dungeon on Raging week. Hibernate is a CC that sees situational use. I use it as a guaranteed interrupt on the maggots in UR that is not affected by stun DR. What is unique to Feral is stampeding roar, an aoe 60% movement speed buff for 8 seconds, on a 2 minute cooldown. This is very useful for executing longer shroud skips, boss fights involving mobility like Cragmaw the Infested, and speeding up travel time between packs, especially indoors. Feral also has frequent access to instant cast Regrowth and Entangling Roots, which helps to heal themselves or party members who take spot damage (like on Tyrannical Freehold bosses 1 and 2), or instantly rooting a humanoid mob that's running away, like many mobs in Tol Dagor do. (Once rooted the mob will return to the group when the roots fall off, it won't continue to retreat.) Feral is also unique in that is the only spec in the game with an improved stealth and an out of combat rez. Feral stealth is as good as Rogue stealth, but other Druid specs are more likely to be detected by enemies while stealthing. If a death skip is being used, or if a wipe has happened, a Feral Druid can stealth back to the group very quickly with Dash (sprint) and Stampeding Roar, and resurrect the healer without consuming a battle resurrection, and without the risk of being detected the way a Restoration, Balance, or Guardian Druid might have. We'll also be able to chase the dog with the keys in Freehold without mobs detecting us, once Void Emmisaries will no longer be around.
Feral Druids get a 5/5 for survivability. We constantly have access to free, instant healing thanks to instant Regrowth, and our defensive cooldown is one of the strongest in the game, outside of immunities. Survival Instincts is a 50% DR for 6 seconds, and it has two charges on a 2 minute recharge time. We can use this together with Bear Form for an insane amount of mitigation and added health, or can weave between using bear form and Survival Instincts depending on the situation. On Tyrannical bosses like Heartsbane Triad, Bear Form and Survival Instincts will allow me to take a hit from Jagged Nettles and it won't even drop me below 90% hp, even at the +18 to +19 level. Against Tyrannical Eudora we can use Bear Form or Survival Instincts to mitigate every Pistol Shot we're targetted with. Shapeshifting is also a powerful defensive in some scenarios. We're always immune to Soul Thorns from Soubound Goliath in cat form, as well as the Hex cast by Hex Priests in King's Rest. We can shapeshift out of the debuff from Lord Stormsong, two debuffs from the first boss of Shrine, the frost shock from mobs on the King's Rest bridge, and the slow portion of the Virulent Pathogen on Lord and Lady Waycrest. We are also completely immune to the rat traps in Freehold, and can quickly clear them all from the ground by moving over them.
I'd give Feral a 3/5 for Mob Control. We can stun targets for 5 seconds with Maim, which is very useful to have access to, but it doesn't do as much damage as Between the Eyes and isn't up as often. We have Typhoon but lack an AoE stun, unless you're a Tauren. We can talent into a second 5 second stun, giving us the ability to stun two targets at once for 5 seconds, but this is on the same talent row as Typhoon and Mass Entanglement. Mass Entanglement is situationally useful on bolstering weeks, but Typhoon is almost always taken outside of those situations. We also have entangling roots, but this is usually a utility tool rather than something you use frequently during the pull to control mobs and the damage they're dealing.
My scores add up to a 20/25, which would place it as third in this list if it were on it, slightly higher than monks and DKs. Ferals biggest problems are that we're not a Rogue or Demon Hunter, and the meta is quite rigid when it comes to what groups are wanting to invite to their keys. If you're pushing with a group of friends then you'll do really well playing Feral, but you will often have a hard time pugging. The community perception of Feral is a combination of the belief that we're rubbish or that we don't exist. Feral was in an awful position in season one of this expansion because we had hardly any AoE damage to speak of. That changed in 8.1 but the community perception didn't change to reflect this, because so few people still were playing the spec. People still think they're garbage, either because they were garbage in 8.0 or because no one plays the spec, and they assume that if no one plays the spec it must be because it's garbage, when it's actually because it's got a reputation as a difficult spec to master, and a lot of players don't want to play it because of that. If the spec is always excluded or ignored when discussing melee dps, this community perception is unlikely to change. Of course, this problem is not yours alone to tackle, but I do think you have the platform to influence and educate people, and as a 2300 Feral player who has mained the spec since the Burning Crusade (though played on and off, taking breaks from thee game between Wrath and Warlords), I dream of a day when I'm not laughed at when I apply for a keystone group.
I didn’t read all of it!
Community perception and what is being played at the top tier of play will trickle down to the masses. I think player over class is definitely better, but if your pugging well people like meta even for +5 keys lol!
Really awesome video, thank for sharing this with us ! And even though I learned a few things for 8.3, I'm kind of disapointed you didn't talk about enhancement shaman, I main it and I agree they do the exact same thing as elemental, the only real difference is between sundering ( which is a 100% chance ) while elemental is less accurate since earthquake is usable as long as you have maelstrom but only knock down from time to times. Yes elemental is safer because it does the exact same thing overall than the enhancement but at a distance, but still, always being underrated just because of that while they can be really strong.
Dratnos, ww monks also have 70% slow with flying serpent kick for Mob control. So should award 5/5 just like DH slow with vengeful retreat B-)
Should also have an extra point in survivability for Touch of Karma IMO. An ability that can also be used offensively
@@zacharydion1210 the problem with karma is it doesnt always save you you can die with karma pretty quickly in a high key like on 20+ some abillitys oneshot you no matter if you karma or not.
Sounds like nothings changed then from pretty much the beginning of BFA.
Same with Wotlk. DK on top of everything all expansion
my current arms warrior on aoe pulls of 10+ targets hits around 100 to 200k dps during sweeping strikes and its because of 2 stacks of the seismic wave trait + BOTE
What about Ferals and enchantment shamy?
What about Karma and monk slow? Why they are not mentioned?!
Monk slow is very bad
"Survivability is a weakness of a Death Knight"
I'd sure hope so!
>heals more than a healer
> “ Survivability is a weakness of a Death Knight.”
lmao.
@@Sercan44444 how? Only blood dks have those amounts of heal, and its a tank spec
d E Unholy especially has a lot of healing with Death Strike. (Casting Death Strike instead of Death Coil is not that big of a DPS loss)
When enhancement wasn't went over in either videos. Makes all enhancement players feel great ya know. Melee video "because we don't want a long video". Ranged video " Not worth going over"
yea that's bs that he left out enhance.
It says top ranked if they went over enha on both just consider them at the very bottom of the list, terrible
super taco yea i noticed really, i even got 2 in my guild one of whom is in the 11/12’progression run
I love how survival is so unpopular not a single person even in the comment sections talks about them
Yeah, so sad. SV hunter is my main character, and by far my favorite spe.
I play SV and it sucks there isn't a video showing them love. I found only 1 really. It takes skill to play this spec. But maybe thats what WoW has become now a bunch of brain dead characters with 4 keys to press.
@@nightraven6497 arms is way less brain dead than sv , sorry.
@@nightraven6497 I mean, 'brain dead characters with 4 keys to press'.... bomb, carve + fillers in AoE, SS, bomb, mb, kc in st... unless you're in raid spec where it's basically just mb, kc, and filler bombs. That's max 4 buttons for any situation. If you can accept there's finesse to SV, you have to accept there's finesse elsewhere.
Im cool with it, its a hidden op, actually insanely strong cleave with short cds for well executed burst. The corrupted agi spear will turn this spec into a powerhouse.
They bring uitility with binding shot, tar trap, freezing trap can work like imprison, 30% lust, 4 second stun, and wont lose uptime with aspect of the eagle keeping them out of large pulls with lots of stunning aoe spell..
Not to mention multiple feign death skips that wouldnt be possible
Great video - thanks for posting this!
However I do disagree a little with the low score of Paladins
There was no mention of Blessing of Kings, which can be somewhat valueable to Tanks
While the effect of the "Retribution" passive has niche uses, the buff that increases dmg done by 20% and reduces dmg taken by 30% for 10sec. when someone else dies, I do believe it should be mentioned, as deaths happens
No mention of the 70% slow either
The utility list seems to be way too strong to not score perfectly
Other than that, like the sustain being the Ret weakness, I agree with
"rank of melee classes"
"im not gonna rank 3 class in this video"
As a feral druid this video was 30 seconds long for me
Its ok, I'm sure as a feral druid you get declined at a similarly quick rate.
@@marcnunes8 Dude you killed him!
I play survival hunter so I understand. And as a feral druid, the spec is rising in numbers. If you know mechanics and how to play, declining someone based on spec or class is idiotic. Dude prolly plays DH which is a brain dead class. Kudos to you, druid, playing a class that requires skill.
@@nightraven6497 I press button. I does damage. I get passive Dodge and mitigation by pressing damage button so I only need focus on moar damage. Very skill. Git gud nubs. Less button moar power.
Seriously though, demon hunters are stupid. For people who want to look cool, do massive damage, and do nothing to earn either.
Marc Nunes GET SLAIN! 😂
You forgot about fury warrior's Piercing Howl which is 50% AoE slow that can have 100% uptime.
They don't mention the hunter survival and this is also a melee dps
Is DK getting a massive buff or something?? I can understand WW monk begin higher then warrior(by a bit), but no way DK is better then both monk and warrior other then MDIwere u pull full rooms in low'ish keys
Dk seems really overestimated in the video.
Mediocre damage
He gave most utility points just for the sole brez
Mob control is close to non existant. Chains of ice is being used as a long cd burst this meta, most ccs being single target only
Survivability with a death strike is no survivability, it only heals a percent portion of damage done and using it breaks your rotation which dks heavily depend on since the skills must stack on each other for it to do any decent damage
zomg "Dratnos with Method"
How do you do a top melee video and not include Feral Druid or Enhance Shaman?
Wow... at 16.28 when they go over pally, there's a WA at the top that.. tells them which abilities to use in which order?!? where can we get that?
Shows what they have used not what they should use
Is taunt just too weak of an ability on most classes compared to say aoe slow / stun since there is no mention of it anywhere?
Does this apply to raids as well or just dungeons ?
I come to listen about survival hunter, nvm short video for me
Great video!
You forgot Hand of Hinderance for mob control on the paladin.
Dude i have a question mik have "karmer" it is a huge survivalbility you muss it to say
Dratnos of method!?!?!?!?! POOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
So when the range one out ? Enhance is range now
For rogues you say sap is 1 of 2 abilities in the game to allow noncombat CC but the other of those 2 doesn't get even a mention for paladin? Also really not buying low single target for ret. It's 2-3 target cleave that is the low spot of their damage profile.
talking about plate as natural dmg reduction for warrior but not for dk ?
Is shroud still so important with the new affix?
Can't wait for the ranges video. Warlock in M+ is OMEGALUL, healthstones?
DH with Vision of perfection would gain at least 1 more utility point imo, since it generally pops every 30th second (if not more often) i combat, and can be popped by even taking damage. Otherwise I'd agree.
That will never happen since DH can gain 1 extra thick in focusing iris while in demon form , soo will eclipse Vision all the way
Completely agree with this ranking :D, and it's how i myself evaluate them when deciding on a comp for some runs.
When friends ask me what to play, i answer: Whatever you feel is fun to play, coz if it's fun to play you tend to make some effort into actually get good at what you play.
I don't agree warriors should be higher, even with one 5 targets fury can do soo much dps has a DH , and they have aoe abilitys