“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” ― Marcus Aurelius
I deconverted 7 years ago, and I still struggle with the repercussions. I appreciate the calm, congenial manner with which you present this information.
Great words man. It is truly painful to rebuild the way we think and perceive the world. To get to the point where you can say that your core principle's are wrong is a long and slow walk, but it is so worth it when you are buried within the illusion of pure belief. Just don't replace one illusion with another (i.e. pseudo science), because you are still teaching your mind that it is okay to think irrationally.
I'm a natural born skeptic and lifelong atheist saying thanks for the honest, welcoming, and charming advocacy. We always need former theists telling their stories and using the words, they're better at reaching the deeply indoctrinated and emboldening the powerless than I can be. So listen to this guy ya'll he's doing it right and deserves a voice. But if anybody does care, here's what I have to say about supernatural beliefs that are based on mainly personal experience: People tend to forget that you don't actually have live, real-time personal experience. Everything that happens to you is the sum of your senses crafting a mental model of the experience and creating a memory. Your senses aren't perfect. Even if they were, it doesn't mean the model is perfect. Then the memory is immediately malleable, influenced by other thought, and changes over time, leaving mostly the emotions. Trust your senses sure, but verify your evidence of reality. Fooling yourself is almost the easiest human thing to do.
If you have a supernatural experience, this only proves that whatever you felt was not supernatural as something has to be natural for it to act in the real world and for you to feel it. I never had to deconstruct though, I was raised in a very Christian home and had nothing but good experiences with the church and all the youth programs, but for some reason, God and Jesus had no more reality to me than other mythology and all the novels I read. Part of it may be that I read the entire Bible front to back before 2nd grade and the absurdity of it was more apparent than what it would be to someone who only heard select stories from the pulpit.
a quote that always pops up in my mind when discussing the topic of faith like this is one by blaise pascal, which ironically made pascal’s wager: “Man is equally incapable of seeing the nothingness from which he emerges and the infinity in which he is engulfed.”
I never felt this strong about religion which i think made it easier to drop my beliefs, but one thing i noticed is that most religions will play mind games and tricks to make it seem like you’re wrong BECAUSE of how hard it is. it’s a common cult tactic and just piles on to the constant similarities between small cults and major religions. they’ll say things like “it’s because gods tugging on your heart” or “you just want to live in sin and god is trying to prevent it” it makes it compelling to some people to go back to it, but putting the right thought into it kinda dismantles any of those claims lmao.
Hey Mav! Don’t know if you remember me, but we went to high school together! The UA-cam algo suggested your channel to me & I’m so glad it did! I’ve also been on a deconstruction journey the last few years & have felt the weight of grief over some of the beliefs I had to let go. Religious trauma is so real & I really hate that so many of us suffered through that for many, many years. Wishing you peace along your journey & happy to see your face 💜
How could I forget you!!! Deconstruction really can be so tough and I’ve had so much grief about it, but it’s definitely better than a few years back! And I also wish you all the best! 🥰
I loved Jesus from early childhood. I followed him into a call to ministry as a teen. All through college and seminary, I led groups in church, and continued 25 more years in full time ministry. When I quit believing, I had never met an atheist. I hadn’t read any atheist writers, or even watched an atheist on UA-cam. I could have stayed in the ministry a few more years and retired. I really enjoyed it. But I value the truth, gave up the only culture I had known all my life. I didn’t know how my family would fare, but my wife was relieved. Our kids are now grown, and are free from church. My wife is still active in church, and will mention an upcoming concert (we are into classical music, and the church has great acoustics). I say, “I hate to miss it,” then remind her that she said she would prefer I quit going than criticize the service afterward. That’s a tradition that both our dads did, talking about the sermon, etc. Now that I’m openly non believing, I can’t even do that.
It's hard for o me to relate to people holding onto religious beliefs, and even more hard to understand those who try to compose their own new age style belief. In first case you usually get it from parents, in second you actively choose to be delusional, or that's how i see it. Personally my experience was vastly different. I grew up in an eastern orthodox family that only visited church occasionally. I was a believer of Orthodox Christianity too, but it was more like a default option taken from my parents. It fell apart the second i started questioning the world around me, around turning 12 years old. Watching popular science tv shows definitely helped with this. They showed that there is no magic, and everything can be explained eventually. I found it too lame that the Church keeps using this manipulative strategy of placing God wherever scientists did not find a scientific answer yet. That made religion super weak in my eyes, and it was super easy and comfortable to just brush off the assumption that there is a need for God to explain the world. I like to watch this kind of stories to try understand other people who keep holding onto beliefs, despite me feeling their inner contradictions. So I have a question, what are these supernatural experiences you mention? I never had anything like that and am curious
this is a very brave video your presenting considering UA-cam and other social media algorithms primarily promote engagement, especially that of the negative variety. I'm very elated to see the support you have found through this video though. it warms my heart. I started atheism once my cousin came out as gay and my family didnt take it well. they used god to justify their beliefs. since i couldn't prove them wrong through the bible, because of course not, I decided that i didn't want to worship someone who judged someone because they used the free will they gave them to be happy. HELL NO.
UA-cam recommended this video and I'm glad because I think the world needs more of this kind of testimony. I appreciate it even more because your deconversion looks like mine. In the sense that you didn't directly go from christian to zero supernatural belief. Transitioning towards new age spirituality was the first step for me too. After that my journey was pretty smooth and gradual tho (about 3 years) and probably less painful than what you lived. But hey you made it. The only thing I'm still struggling with is my surroundings. It's hard to see people run away from the evidence even when you are willing to do most of the work and bring it to them. And reject the evidence even when they have no rebuttal to it. The worst (it happened a few days ago) is hearing a friend proudly say that they trust their own personal experience more then rational thinking...I wish I didn't care as much but that's exasperating
surprised more atheists don't talk about this. I guess for most it was an easy awakening, but for some of us the realization that there truly is no (personal) god is a unsettling paradigm shift
@@mavmagick I changed very slowly, so it wasn't too bad for me. But going from seeing my life as pre-destined and God watching over me, to the future being unknown and random gave me a lot of anxiety. Reading stoicism has helped though, I recommend Ryan Holiday if you haven't watched/read his stuff
I have exactly the opposite problem. I have never ever been able to understand the cognitive dissonance of magical thinking that so many people seem to find convincing. At the age of 73 I don't expect I'll be finding that Father Christmas and his other imaginary friends are real after all.
Nice to see another video mav! Im also someone who is also atheist and let go of new age and spiritual beliefs. Its crazy to me tho cuz there's lots of queer people that are into spiritual stuff whether its astrology or something and it kinda makes me cringe when they start talking about it cuz i can't relate
I deconstructed 40 years ago. I know EXACTLY what you are saying. At least you have the internet today where you can see you are not alone. I had to fight through it by myself.
I have had interaction with angelic beings. For many years i defined them as such. I now define thes experiences as being extraterrestrial in nature. Has the hostess ever heard of paul wallis? And if one really looks at the description of the " new Jerusalem coming down from heaven as a bride adorned for her husband" does it not sound like the description of a spaceship? Could the " pearly gates" not be round doors, or portals with white light emanating from within? Could the " foundations of the city" not be the legs of the spaceship? And i thought about all of this long before i ever heard of paul wallis.
Hey! I'm Gina. Your video popped up in my feed and a lot ofwhat you said resonated with me. If you're looking for a way to spread skepticism and encourage critical thinking without being judg-y and invalidating others' experiences, you might give Street Epistemology a try, in conversations . We recognize that we aren't going to change minds with facts and TRY to help people think critically about how and why they believe a thing from a position of safety.
Quantum physics and string theory both overlap with thinking once relegated to the realms of supernatural and superstition. So giving that up is unscientific.
Science denialism is my main problem with religious belief. Not that this is universal. For me however, Remaining Christian would be like convincing myself I was one of santa claus's elves after finding out Is santa condones genocide And slavery.
My problem with religion is that if you can convince yourself something as absurd as a man walked on water... what other absurd things can you believe? Religion create a world where billions of people believe in the absurd and it must be respected. That is the most frightening thing to me...
We are all children of god and god love all of us ❤ we are spiritual lights. But religion is Liang so bad they say think about god they're don't fit. God love all of us and you will protect from angels in heaven is no judgment❤🦋💗🏳️⚧️🏳️🌈
Well this is it, for someone who cares about the truth about life, death and our place in the Universe its a journey through a fog until that sudden spark of realisation.
![losing faith | my departure from theism [cc]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/6xqCkx6WQBE/mqdefault.jpg)
![losing faith | my departure from theism [cc]](/img/tr.png)
“We have two lives; the second begins when we realise we only have one.” -Confucius
Yes!!
Exactly!!!
Such a good quote.
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” ― Marcus Aurelius
Wonderful quote! Thanks for sharing ❤️❤️
This is such a thoughtful and compassionate discussion, I bet this video has been incredibly helpful to many people.
I deconverted 7 years ago, and I still struggle with the repercussions. I appreciate the calm, congenial manner with which you present this information.
🙏🏾
Great words man. It is truly painful to rebuild the way we think and perceive the world. To get to the point where you can say that your core principle's are wrong is a long and slow walk, but it is so worth it when you are buried within the illusion of pure belief. Just don't replace one illusion with another (i.e. pseudo science), because you are still teaching your mind that it is okay to think irrationally.
Thanks so much 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾 it was so hard but I’m very learned a lot of patience for myself
I'm a natural born skeptic and lifelong atheist saying thanks for the honest, welcoming, and charming advocacy.
We always need former theists telling their stories and using the words, they're better at reaching the deeply indoctrinated and emboldening the powerless than I can be.
So listen to this guy ya'll he's doing it right and deserves a voice. But if anybody does care, here's what I have to say about supernatural beliefs that are based on mainly personal experience:
People tend to forget that you don't actually have live, real-time personal experience. Everything that happens to you is the sum of your senses crafting a mental model of the experience and creating a memory. Your senses aren't perfect. Even if they were, it doesn't mean the model is perfect. Then the memory is immediately malleable, influenced by other thought, and changes over time, leaving mostly the emotions.
Trust your senses sure, but verify your evidence of reality. Fooling yourself is almost the easiest human thing to do.
Yep! Fooling yourself is a bit too easy..
If you have a supernatural experience, this only proves that whatever you felt was not supernatural as something has to be natural for it to act in the real world and for you to feel it. I never had to deconstruct though, I was raised in a very Christian home and had nothing but good experiences with the church and all the youth programs, but for some reason, God and Jesus had no more reality to me than other mythology and all the novels I read. Part of it may be that I read the entire Bible front to back before 2nd grade and the absurdity of it was more apparent than what it would be to someone who only heard select stories from the pulpit.
Yeah reading the Bible does that 🤣
a quote that always pops up in my mind when discussing the topic of faith like this is one by blaise pascal, which ironically made pascal’s wager: “Man is equally incapable of seeing the nothingness from which he emerges and the infinity in which he is engulfed.”
Love this one!
I never felt this strong about religion which i think made it easier to drop my beliefs, but one thing i noticed is that most religions will play mind games and tricks to make it seem like you’re wrong BECAUSE of how hard it is. it’s a common cult tactic and just piles on to the constant similarities between small cults and major religions. they’ll say things like “it’s because gods tugging on your heart” or “you just want to live in sin and god is trying to prevent it” it makes it compelling to some people to go back to it, but putting the right thought into it kinda dismantles any of those claims lmao.
This is such a good point!! The pain is like a sign you were doing something right rather than a warning of something being wrong
Hey Mav! Don’t know if you remember me, but we went to high school together! The UA-cam algo suggested your channel to me & I’m so glad it did! I’ve also been on a deconstruction journey the last few years & have felt the weight of grief over some of the beliefs I had to let go. Religious trauma is so real & I really hate that so many of us suffered through that for many, many years. Wishing you peace along your journey & happy to see your face 💜
How could I forget you!!! Deconstruction really can be so tough and I’ve had so much grief about it, but it’s definitely better than a few years back! And I also wish you all the best! 🥰
I loved Jesus from early childhood. I followed him into a call to ministry as a teen. All through college and seminary, I led groups in church, and continued 25 more years in full time ministry. When I quit believing, I had never met an atheist. I hadn’t read any atheist writers, or even watched an atheist on UA-cam. I could have stayed in the ministry a few more years and retired. I really enjoyed it. But I value the truth, gave up the only culture I had known all my life. I didn’t know how my family would fare, but my wife was relieved. Our kids are now grown, and are free from church.
My wife is still active in church, and will mention an upcoming concert (we are into classical music, and the church has great acoustics). I say, “I hate to miss it,” then remind her that she said she would prefer I quit going than criticize the service afterward.
That’s a tradition that both our dads did, talking about the sermon, etc.
Now that I’m openly non believing, I can’t even do that.
Glad you are doing what’s right for you and I’m amazed by your strength!
Dealing with how ingrained religion is in the community is quite the struggle. Ex-jws are just one extreme example.
It's hard for o me to relate to people holding onto religious beliefs, and even more hard to understand those who try to compose their own new age style belief. In first case you usually get it from parents, in second you actively choose to be delusional, or that's how i see it.
Personally my experience was vastly different. I grew up in an eastern orthodox family that only visited church occasionally. I was a believer of Orthodox Christianity too, but it was more like a default option taken from my parents. It fell apart the second i started questioning the world around me, around turning 12 years old.
Watching popular science tv shows definitely helped with this. They showed that there is no magic, and everything can be explained eventually. I found it too lame that the Church keeps using this manipulative strategy of placing God wherever scientists did not find a scientific answer yet. That made religion super weak in my eyes, and it was super easy and comfortable to just brush off the assumption that there is a need for God to explain the world.
I like to watch this kind of stories to try understand other people who keep holding onto beliefs, despite me feeling their inner contradictions.
So I have a question, what are these supernatural experiences you mention? I never had anything like that and am curious
this is a very brave video your presenting considering UA-cam and other social media algorithms primarily promote engagement, especially that of the negative variety. I'm very elated to see the support you have found through this video though. it warms my heart. I started atheism once my cousin came out as gay and my family didnt take it well. they used god to justify their beliefs. since i couldn't prove them wrong through the bible, because of course not, I decided that i didn't want to worship someone who judged someone because they used the free will they gave them to be happy. HELL NO.
Thanks so much! It’s more important to tell my story tho! And I’m proud of you for doing the right thing!!
UA-cam recommended this video and I'm glad because I think the world needs more of this kind of testimony. I appreciate it even more because your deconversion looks like mine. In the sense that you didn't directly go from christian to zero supernatural belief. Transitioning towards new age spirituality was the first step for me too. After that my journey was pretty smooth and gradual tho (about 3 years) and probably less painful than what you lived. But hey you made it.
The only thing I'm still struggling with is my surroundings. It's hard to see people run away from the evidence even when you are willing to do most of the work and bring it to them. And reject the evidence even when they have no rebuttal to it.
The worst (it happened a few days ago) is hearing a friend proudly say that they trust their own personal experience more then rational thinking...I wish I didn't care as much but that's exasperating
It really is frustrating how people ignore the truth. It’s my biggest pet peeve!
surprised more atheists don't talk about this. I guess for most it was an easy awakening, but for some of us the realization that there truly is no (personal) god is a unsettling paradigm shift
It was actually earth shattering for me!!!
@@mavmagick I changed very slowly, so it wasn't too bad for me. But going from seeing my life as pre-destined and God watching over me, to the future being unknown and random gave me a lot of anxiety. Reading stoicism has helped though, I recommend Ryan Holiday if you haven't watched/read his stuff
I have exactly the opposite problem. I have never ever been able to understand the cognitive dissonance of magical thinking that so many people seem to find convincing. At the age of 73 I don't expect I'll be finding that Father Christmas and his other imaginary friends are real after all.
I wish that was my issue 😂
Nice to see another video mav! Im also someone who is also atheist and let go of new age and spiritual beliefs. Its crazy to me tho cuz there's lots of queer people that are into spiritual stuff whether its astrology or something and it kinda makes me cringe when they start talking about it cuz i can't relate
You should turn up your audio a bit it's to low.
I can do that! Thanks.
I deconstructed 40 years ago. I know EXACTLY what you are saying. At least you have the internet today where you can see you are not alone. I had to fight through it by myself.
Yeah I couldn’t imagine doing this without the resources!
I have had interaction with angelic beings. For many years i defined them as such. I now define thes experiences as being extraterrestrial in nature. Has the hostess ever heard of paul wallis? And if one really looks at the description of the " new Jerusalem coming down from heaven as a bride adorned for her husband" does it not sound like the description of a spaceship? Could the " pearly gates" not be round doors, or portals with white light emanating from within? Could the " foundations of the city" not be the legs of the spaceship? And i thought about all of this long before i ever heard of paul wallis.
There is no evidence for any extraterrestrial life so idk how sound that interpretation is🤷🏾🤷🏾
Hey! I'm Gina. Your video popped up in my feed and a lot ofwhat you said resonated with me. If you're looking for a way to spread skepticism and encourage critical thinking without being judg-y and invalidating others' experiences, you might give Street Epistemology a try, in conversations . We recognize that we aren't going to change minds with facts and TRY to help people think critically about how and why they believe a thing from a position of safety.
I’m a huge fan of street epistemology actually! I’ll have to chat about my experiences with it in another video!
Quantum physics and string theory both overlap with thinking once relegated to the realms of supernatural and superstition. So giving that up is unscientific.
Nope quantum physics studies physics on a small scale. It has nothing to do with the supernatural
@@mavmagick maybe you should study these sciences vs various "supernatural" areas and drop your bigotry
@@TheGlock30owner where is the bigotry? It’s just science
@@mavmagick every aspect of modern atheism is bigoted, condescending, arrogant without being competent, and full of hate
Science denialism is my main problem with religious belief.
Not that this is universal. For me however, Remaining Christian would be like convincing myself I was one of santa claus's elves after finding out Is santa condones genocide And slavery.
My problem with religion is that if you can convince yourself something as absurd as a man walked on water... what other absurd things can you believe? Religion create a world where billions of people believe in the absurd and it must be respected. That is the most frightening thing to me...
@@parkbum7141you're describing ideology, not religion.
Wait until you discover religiosity is genetic.
Yeah Christianity is not too comfortable to live with esp with the stuff in the Bible!
We are all children of god and god love all of us ❤ we are spiritual lights.
But religion is Liang so bad they say think about god they're don't fit. God love all of us and you will protect from angels in heaven is no judgment❤🦋💗🏳️⚧️🏳️🌈
> gives up "religion", claims to be atheist
> clearly spiritual, believes in magic
Yeah I guess my username is confusing but I assure you I dont believe In the supernatural
Peace
Same to you!
Did god sound like Morgan Freeman? Lol
lol I wish 🤣
Well this is it, for someone who cares about the truth about life, death and our place in the Universe its a journey through a fog until that sudden spark of realisation.
Psyop
Why would you want to?
Would love to commune with you more on this ,I’m internally going through a process ,very uncomfortable but necessary for my growth .