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The Science of Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome | Sci Guys Podcast
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- Опубліковано 28 тра 2022
- Munchausen By Proxy Syndrome (or, more correctly, Factitious Disorder Imposed on Another) is a condition wherein a person does almost everything they can to make someone else appear seriously ill. Portrayed persistently in pop culture, particularly with the case of Gypsy Rose - FDIA is widely known but not very well understood...
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References & Further Reading
www.nhs.uk/mental-health/cond...
www.nhs.uk/mental-health/cond...
adc.bmj.com/content/78/3/210
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...
www.nhs.uk/mental-health/cond....
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32772...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...
www.sciencedirect.com/science...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29938...
www.biography.com/news/gypsy-...
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@notcorry / @jampkin / @lukecutforth
When did you last vomit?
Like 6 months ago
Years ago thankfully
Never eat white rice to settle your tummy either; vomit gets caught in your nose coming back up. Very memorable experience and not in a good way.
this morning. my body stopped letting me drink alcohol after the age of 20 so now after more than 1 pint and i will vomit. i haven't drunk in a while, bit decided to have a couple drinks at a festival yesterday, and puked as soon as i woke up this morning. bad choice.
morning after Christmas...
munchausen by proxy doesn’t only affect parents / children, it could be any carer/subject dynamic for example it could be a caregiver and an elder. luke keeps saying the child instead of victim
Interesting addition to the Baron von Munchhausen, he did tell tall tales, but only a few of them, and from what I can gather, not intended to be believed, but a friend/acquaintance of his published a few of the tales with some additions. Those tales got really popular, and were expanded into even more folk tales where the baron became the protagonist. People called him the lying baron, even though most of the tales were never his to begin with, and he kind of secluded himself.
Has this ever been recorded for pet owners?
This is a fantastic point.
this just sent the craziest chill down my spine
Unlikely but possible. Typically they have insurance for the child so there's less negative reinforcement, whereas with a pet there are exorbitantly high cost vet bills for all these tests and procedures. Mind you I'm speculating so it's possibly more common than logic dictates.
Edit: I am aware of pet insurance, it is usually quite expensive, but there's also the fact that a pet will never grow up and leave, they'll always be dependant.
Actually yes it has been
It really should be. I knew a girl who had a diff ent pet every month and every month the new one would die of mysterious causes. No shit every month
If Munchausen's by proxy is considered a form of child abuse is Munchausen's considered a form of self harm?
it's funny seeing this when it's so relevant to me right now lmao. my old gp accused my mother of munchausen and munchausen by proxy. she was diagnosed with chrohns a month after and recently diagnosed with fibromyalgia, which i'm also being tested for
I was surprised Corry brought up fibromyalgia. I have it and would love an episode on the science of fibro. It’s heavily studied but hardly understood, very perplexing. I was also diagnosed very young and very quickly (diagnosed at 16 and tested for only 5 months) which is very uncommon. It’s a disease that usually takes years of loooong testing to discover. Which is also something interesting about the disease; why does it take so long to rule out? When I first told my mother I thought I was severely ill she told me I sounded like someone with munchausen’s. I had no idea what that was because I was only 10 years old at the time but it took a long time for her to finally understand that I was really in pain.
I always thought the motive was attention. They want the sympathy that comes with being sick or taking care of someone sick. It makes sense to me, although it’s still baffling why anyone would want that kind of attention.
Desperation
This is super interesting. Especially the examples of a caregiver seeking medical attention. It's unclear to me if the caregiver truly believes the individual is sick. But if they truly believe it, it must be so scary, especially with a very young child, to think you know something's wrong and be told it's nothing. So interesting, but so sad because of all the hurt it causes to all involved.
As someone with a less known condition(not even rare, just under-researched), I actually have the opposite experience. For many years I went to doctors and was frequently ignored or told it was anxiety or all in my head. I generally think the answer to both sides is to have more individualized medical care. If a doctor can take the time to get to know their patient, they are more likely to notice and understand when something is wrong.
It is not the same as being paranoid about health and trying to seek help for what you truly believe is a problem. Munchhausen by proxy is deliberately exploiting another to gain attention. It is abuse pure and simple.
I really appreciate the sensibility put into this video. I'll explain a bit of my case just in case it can help somebody else. My case has not been diagnosed nor proved but as I've reflected upon the issue 20 years later, this seems to be the most logical conclusion. I remember I spent what for me was a lot of my childhood in hospitals, visit after visit, specialist after specialist. Nobody could point out what was wrong with me. What I know is that around 4 to 5 years old, if I told my parents I had a stomach ache, suddenly they'd stop arguing, my mother would stop crying and my father would immediately come over and show so much interest in my symptoms. He was a diagnosed and majorly rehabilitated hypochondriac. He had also evaded my mother suing him when I was 4 due to perpetued psychological and physical abuse that peaked one day when my father literally tried to kidnap me among other things. I was 4 when that happened. My stomach ache episodes curiously increased after that... One day I got a conclusive diagnosis: Left hydronephrosis. That is a condition that should have been spotted during pregnancy through the ultrasounds but it had never shown up until, casually, that big event and my strategic belly ache which, most of the time, I lied about because I guess a kid needs to cope with horrible parenthood somehow. But how did I go from lying about having pain in my belly to actually having a nearly pointless surgery for it? I don't know how my body came to actually show such a bad kidney but I remember that before the surgery, I was expected to lose one kidney for good but after it, two things happened:
1. Doctors found out it was easier to fix than thought so I could keep my kidney and a huge scar still visible 20 years after.
2.Amid the post-op excruciating pain and sobbing of my 5 year old self, they had to get my father to psychiatric emergency care because he started panicking and screaming at the doctors and my mom that I was crying that way because "the urine had come out of my kidneys and was flooding my insides". That is the most ridiculous scene I can remember of my father. For I aknowledge, as much as I've been able to hate him, that he is not only a master manipulator but a very clever man.
I have a vivid memory of my father somehow enjoying the ambience of hospitals. He knew all the doctors, he knew the names of procedures and machines and things that a normal person wouldn't know. I can't recall much of how it went on when I was 5, only the most painful parts. But every time I ever went to the doctors or even psychology therapist (age 15) he always needed to talk for me. I had come to actually believe he could read my thoughts when I was arround so I just let him speak. I feared saying anything wrong, plus add the fear, when I was in therapy and oh, he had to always be in the waiting room, that I really believed he had found a way to listen to everything I told to the therapist so every time my father was mentioned I just went silent or silently cried while holding my breath. I dropped therapy by my own will because the therapis insisted on bringing him up and I could't stand one more session knowing he somehow knew that he was being put on the spotlight. I feared of what he would do to me once I dared to speak a bad word about him si I simply shut myself down.
It took me a lot of years and therapy to realise he has no power over me. Not anymore. I still found it baffling that such a "complicated" disease with a surgery outcome could have been produced out of the blue. Yet in a tymid google search I found just one case like mine. An hydronephrosis case on a7 year old boy in the US by proxy, by his mother. It was faked but he'd gone through the same as me. I couldn't believe it.
The worst part of this is that I don't think my father will ever aknowledge he did this. I don't want to dig anymore into it because it just feels painful to think how he managed to switch the attention from my abused mother to me through an induced sickness that was hinted by my own 5 year old coping mechanisms.
These cases, most of the time, are never as obvious as they can sound like. This will never be scientifically nor socially aknowledged. My case, I mean. And this is just one more of thousands, I guess, that for reasons as complicated as mine will never appear in stadistics.
I believe my father convinced himself that I was ill. But I also believe the timing couldn't have been more convenient for him and his image.
I'm so sorry for all the children who went through this and who keep going through this.
When I tried to end my own life I didn't even know why I was doing it. I hadn't investigated upon this nor dared to identify my father as the man who psychologically manipulated and abused me. Sometimes I wish I could just forget the things that have broken me. Yet I can only say I'm here because I've seen my past and I just swallowed it. I swallowed all that and I'm using it as fuel because as baggage it was to heavy to carry arround.
it would be interesting to compare factitious disorders with illness anxiety disorders, where they may overlap and what makes them different.
as well as chronic illness, as a lot of folks with a combination of unexplained/unrelated symptoms is much too often chalked up to MBP when there are so many chronic illnesses that are nearly impossible to definitively diagnosed/ many chronic illnesses exist alongside other chronic illnesses that may make them harder to individually diagnose
esp in terms of "invisible" ailments like pain, hyperextension etc
There is overlap with narcissism and other personality disorders. This is not about being anxious about health. It is deliberately exploiting another for attention.
I developed M.E./CFS as a child and was to ill to go to school past the age of 10, and so through local support groups my parents found a bunch of other young people with M.E. locally as a social network of people who could understand each other. But through that my main understanding of Munchausen by Proxy is as a threat used against the parents of children with chronic illnesses who didn't want their children to be made to carry on attending school when they were physically incapable of it or put through enforced graded exercise programs. I know one boy who I met a couple of times literally had the social worker directly state that if they didn't let this boy be put into a mental hospital and put through a regiment of strictly enforced exercises then the parents would be declared to have Munchausen by Proxy and have all their children taken into care. They exceeded of course, the boy went through the exercise program and spent the next three or so years confined to bed in a darkened room having to be hand-fed by his parents. Because one of the main symptoms of M.E. is post-exertional malaise, where all symptoms are made worse for a period after activity. And if you keep pushing yourself, or are pushed by others, to carry on doing stuff through that malaise it will eventually result in a relapse. The further past that point you go the more serious the relapse. The boy's parents new this, having lived with him and seeing what happened when he voluntarily pushed himself past his limits. So that's why they fought against the graded exercise. But at the time the conventional wisdom among many doctors and psychologists was that M.E. was just a psycho social disorder where people had false beliefs that they were too tired to do things so they never tried, and so forcing them to do activity and confront the fact that they could actually perform these tasks was an effective way to break people out of those false beliefs. But that meant that it was believed that the parents could be inducing M.E. in their children by gaslighting them into having these false beliefs.
Btw, the way he was "encouraged" to keep up with the exercise program while in the hospital was through verbal bullying and threats to remove privileges like access to regular meals and contact with his parents.
That was the worse example, but there were several others where parents were obliquely informed that if they didn't cooperate then Munchausen's was something that would start to be considered.
I do understand that this is a real condition, and it's awful for the vulnerable people abused as a result. But I can't help feeling somewhat defensive whenever it's mentioned. It's such a scary diagnosis to dangle over the parents of sick children, and so hard for them to disprove.
As a first time viewer, I just wanted to say you guys are making awesome content and I was blown away you don't have more subs. Keep it up!
there is a version of a Narcissus myth where he was cursed by Aphrodite to fall in love with the first person he saw (because she was annoyed with rejecting all the women) and it just so happened to be his reflection he saw first.
it would be really interesting for you guys to do an episode about abuse and child abuse and stuff
This Is child abuse!
The last time i vomited was on my period, since unfortunately each moon sickness i end up getting super nauseous on the first day. Its not very fun but i deal with it.
Heyyy, fibromyalgia person here 😎 I didn’t expect that to be mentioned in this episode based on the title.😂
i am very thankful that i do not remember the last time i vomited
I feel like, there’s in intrinsic motivator for people who have this. Like it’s not about money or the homes or trips or make a wish, which don’t get me wrong, are all benefits to the perpetrators. The attention, sympathy, and in some cases participation in foundations, groups, Ect are more motivation than material things. The image they want others to have of them as an exceptionally kind and selfless person who goes out of their way to show how good of a parent or care giver They are. They’ll do anything to continue that view of themselves to others. Even make their children lie or worse believe they are Sick and actually dying which is in and of itself abusive.
fun topic, morbid but interesting. i can't watch yet (plane time) but i can't wait to see this one.
the last time i vomited was about 2 years ago when i had food poisioning.
I really hope the next video about this won't include tiktok...as someone with genetically confirmed ehlers danlos syndrome i just wanted to say those videos are not harming people who are actually faking disorders it's harming people who are actually sick & the hate & treatment we've recieved since fake claiming became a thing is absolutely insane...so i hope if you cover that topic, you'll be careful with it in terms of what kind of medical information you put out there.
Yeah to some extent I wish that it wasn't as well known a disease as it is now. I don't have eds but my mum does and I have atrophic scarring... my rheumatologist told me to google ehlers danlos and hyper-mobility syndrome which I think was probably a mistake on his part. The online community for these illnesses is very weird. :(
@@erssiemajor8010 Oh dear...I'm so sorry this happened to you. I watched it next to writing so i didn't pay 100% attention but in the parts I've listened i didn't hear anything disrespectful, misinformation or them hating on ppl i think they are decent people who are actually focused on science so in case you wanna go back im fairly sure its safe to watch.
The ableism these fake claimers bring up is absolutely enraging since we already suffer enough by being disabled, general ableism that existed separate from fake claimers & mistreatment from medical staff wich is sadly way too common. I've got a handful of awful medical staff stories too but was lucky enough that shortly after my diagnostic tests began they couldn't dismiss me anymore because all MRI's, Xrays, blood tests ecg's etc came back very obvious plus my hip dislocates so easily & bad you can see it pop out on the side wich is my go to move when a doctor tries to talk down the severity of eds or strange kids on the street think they can harrass me by yelling shit like i wouldn't need a walker. but i know of people who go through decades of this abuse before finally getting undeniable proof & it really sucks it's not fair.
The worst part is that they are so convinced that they are doing smth when all they do is spread misinformation about our illness & cause more suffering to people who are already suffering the most.
Would you like to keep talking about it on instagram? It's nice to chat with ppl who understand sometimes
@@chequeplease I'm not sure if i understood every part of this correctly so if i misinterpret something feel free to point it out.
I'm sorry to hear about that, & while i think that it's not nearly as well known as most people online think now (since ive not come across a person in daily life like cashier or lady at the bakery who know what EDS is) most medical staff hasn't heard of it either & many doctors only know the tiniest bit about it aside from it's existing...so i both somehow agree & disagree as in i wish the people online knew less about it but the right people irl should know more about it instead because the only way to find a cure & better treatments & understanding of it is for people to spread awareness & talk about it. Unfortunately it got into the wrong hands i guess but i had this weird thought after learning that fake claimers are a thing & that they think they are doing smth good...i by no means wanna say that faking an illness is good & no one should ever do it bc it's obviously wrong in so many ways but if you think about it like this...someone who's for some reason faking to have EDS but only spreads correct medical Information about it...would harm us 99% less than fake claimers...it gets more people to talk about it but fake claimers hurt our community 100% of the time.
Do you mind explaining in what way the online community is weird? Like i get the slighthly odd feeling about really any community out there in general but im not sure who you mean or what in particular? I don't interact with it that much bc the comments usually make me rage so😅
@@ciel4537 Oh yeah you understood, I wasn't very clear with what I was saying! I agree that doctors and medical professionals as a whole should be much better informed about eds, I read somewhere it can take 10 years to get a diagnosis... ridiculous.
And yet at the same time the people who seem most informed are not medical professionals but young people online, which is what will happen with a poorly recognised disease where symptoms will primarily present in young people.
To me this is why the online community is weird, it is a mix of people who desperately need medical treatment, people calling out 'fakers' (who, as you say, help absolutely no one), people seeing if their symptoms match/ looking for answers, people who I guess like to gawk at disabled people, and people shilling miracle 'cures'.
This is in contrast to the online community I am part of which is for Psoriatic Arthritis which is an illness which doesn't have a stigma with diagnosis or ignorance from medical professionals attached to it. I have never seen someone 'fake claim' in the PsA online community, everyone is very kind and understanding.
I think the reason for this lies on the ignorance of medical professionals at it's core, and the medical system of a certain country as well as the biases towards the demographic who are most likely to present with eds. I agree with you, people ""faking"" is not the issue with eds, poor representation and basically medical discrimination is, it's pretty obvious when you talk to anyone who has it.
Thank you so much for this. I have EDS too and subjects like this really erk me. I don't have the numbers, but actually faking an illness is SO rare (and often a disease in itself that needs attention). I wish we stopped giving so much attention to the fakers, because like you said it's harming disabled people.
Is the video still watchable or is there ableism in it?
Also daffodils in German are called "Narzissen"....it all comes full circle. case closed!
the last time i vomited (not on purpose) was about 2 years ago after surgery
Pointless fact: The Dr. Asher mentioned was the father of actress Jane Asher (ex-fiancee of Paul McCartney) and Peter Asher from the band Peter and Gordon.
This is entirely speculation and relates to malingering and factitious disorders in regards to prevalence in men vs women. Women are more likely to seek medical attention anyway so there is already a societal expectation of attention and care from a hospital or medical environment. From my own experience of malingering and factitious disorders in men (only observed, not diagnosed) they are from a social/ economical angle rather than medical. For example, a man in his 30's selectively using a walking stick for a 'bad back' while garnering sympathy from friends and family however has never been to the doctor about it. I would imagine this is at least to some degree why the statistics lean heavily towards women aside from them generally being the primary care givers.
Last time I vomited was Halloween. Too many substances did not end well
Kills me when you say CARER cause it feels so much NOT
My mom wanted attention Pity and control
She took psych classes to learn how to use it for the opposite purpose
Studied with Leary mind control theories etc and wanted to have me committed so that I’d become ward of court and deemed unable to care for myself giving her conservatorship over me for the rest of my life as a never ending child mentally but even though I finally escaped my entire life was ruined cause can’t function on my own I was bred intentionally to be subservient and dependent on a caretaker to make decisions and boundaries which makes navigating a neurotypical world extremely more difficult
We don’t pretend we believe we think they know all and are gods and love them even through the abuse and take the meds not knowing it’s harming us etc etc
We are trained to lie but not lie
We never lie to them
But we must always lie FOR them on command
Prepped to address any potential scenario that could cast shade upon them as a parent and verbally as well as physically abused under the heading of tough love cult lovers fave go to
Can believe you have done over 100 mins and couldn’t be bothered to seek out the why which is really well documented.
The “why” is not actually known - there are theories and research out there, but no definitive answer
@@SciGuys much of the literature points to the validation and attention that perpetrators receive from medical professionals as the motivation
And none of it confirms that this is definitively the cause. Everywhere describes the cause as not known.
@@SciGuys I guess it depends where you look. There are many academic papers that discuss motivations
Discussing motivations is not the same as describing a definitive cause
i vomited last night and also had diahrea
i vomited last time i tried to take a day quil bc it got stuck in my pharynx
Last time I vomited was when I had c*vid christmas of 2020. Horrible.
Yesterday and the day before. Right now I feel really week. I probably threw up like 40 times maybe less
Last time I vomited was 3 months ago, your standard gastrointestinal infection. Not cool 😑
Yesterday
i dont get why youre so confused about why someone would do this. seems obvious to me they want to be a caregiver and get sympathy from others for having a "sick" child