The Science of Cults | Sci Guys Podcast
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- Опубліковано 27 лис 2021
- Our patrons decided that cults would be the topic of this week’s episode, so here you go! A little lighter on the heavy science this week as we delve into what cults are, how they work, and why people might join them...
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References & Further Reading
1. journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1...
2. www.researchgate.net/profile/...
3. repository.essex.ac.uk/29565/1...
4. www.nytimes.com/1982/03/15/st...
5. www.apa.org/monitor/nov02/cul...
6. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...
7. www.apa.org/monitor/nov03/jon...
8. csuepress.columbusstate.edu/c...
9. www.sciencedirect.com/science...
10. www.openculture.com/2020/10/w...
11. www.sciencedirect.com/science...
12. cultresearch.org/definition-an...
13. vivianlawry.com/psychology-of-...
14. www.psychology.uct.ac.za/sites...
15. www.newyorker.com/magazine/20...
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@notcorry / @jampkin / @lukecutforth
So whenever i have watched info about cults, the grooming that happens is exactly the same as an abusive relationship or child abusers. As someone who has been in an abusive relationship, literally the steps are identical, and it's fascinating but also horrifying.
Also, talking about jehovahs witnesses and mormons, the main reason they go and do the missionary work that they have to do, all the door knocking etc, is not actually to convert people. They are told that is the reason, but it isnt. Its to get them used to rejection. If they get rejected lots by external people, and often in nasty ways because nobody likes it, then it makes it seem like cult/religion is the only one that cares about them, outside world scary and full of rejection. These techniques are also used by radicalisers, for any religion. Basically anything that makes you feel like the only thing you have is that person/religion/cult and outsiders just dont care or understand you, or actively want to hurt you just furthers the indoctrination. Abusers do it by separating you from your friends and love bombing, or making you feel bad for spending time with anyone else.... and so gradually your friends actually dont want to be there for you because you have had to push them away. It's scary how many of these techniques are used by soooo many groups. It's all manipulation and once you learn it (once you are out of the cult/relationship etc and recovering, especially if you have had therapy) you see it everywhere. You see how much of daily interaction can be manipulative, how family members can prime you for being susceptible, how hollywood and the media can. And obviously mental health, as you mentioned, is one of those things that leaves you susceptible. It's not their fault however, the abusers and cults actively seek those people. They start small to test the water. No cult starts out with "we all need to drink the kool aid".
My mum loves learning about cults and so we watched this episode together. It was her first time watching, rather than listening, and she identified Corry as "The One Who Knows Everything."
i was raised sikh. don't really believe in religion i think all its done is harm people but i do think sikhism is pretty cool we believe that god is genderless/non binary and that all our souls are that way too and i just think that's really cool!
Love how they spend the first 9 minutes like "what is a cult, like wow, what even are words, like how can you ever truly define anything" and then Corry defines cults
The conversation still stands! The definition of cult is messy and more than a little bit subjective.
But yeah, maybe I should’ve led with the definition 😅
-Corry
@@SciGuys No it's a good point, I just couldn't resist teasing
I think the defining characteristic of a cult is that they exercise significant control over the lives of the members and that there are significant consequences for failing to "follow the rules" or for leaving. In rare cases, that control is obvious and overtly harmful, but more often it's subtly manipulative.
Also, having been a Mormon up until recently, I can confirm that it is still a cult (though a nicer term is "high-demand" religion). There are a lot of good people in that church, and they may look happy, but there is a reason why rates of depression, anxiety, and suicide in Utah are two to three times higher than the national average.
I personally am not religious, even though I was "brought up" Christian I've never truly believed. I always had too many questions and it isn't really how my brain works
man, it's so weird hearing people talking about cults from an outside perspective as someone who was born into one (obviously assuming none of them have been in one, I don't know their life stories I'm just guessing by the way they talk about them).
Straight up, I'm a witch whos been listening since I came across your science of witchcraft episode!
As someone who grew up in a cult leaning family (deep fundamentalist Christianity) the section in 50:00 is very accurate to how the control messes with your mind. I left two years ago and I'm still putting the pieces back together. Also a huge ones they'd do was they say I was allowed to do something (like not being barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen) however I would ruin their lives if I didn't do what they wanted. They only started saying this once I started becoming more questioning of things to seem like they were nurturing the curiosity but once I got too curious it was dangerous.
I grew up religious (christian) but always had questions that i found had inadequate or inaccurate answers.
As for defining cults, I think the BITE model is a good metric, albeit not perfect. It recognizes the there's aspects of cults present in other groups (ie. most religions, political parties, even fandoms) but uses various scales to determine severity and harm. It also focuses on the control aspect (Behaviour, Information, Thought, and Emotion) which I think is essential to differentiating a (harmful) cult from other religious/groups: i.e. i wouldn't call mainstream Christianity a cult (though i can't say the same for certain denominations) because it doesn't have that intense authoritarian nature. However, it would definitely show up on the scales to some degree but not to a "harmful degree". Even the beyhive would show up! But neither would meet the threshold for cult
I just recently did a research paper on cults and also Scientology. (One that made very direct ties between cult behavior and behavior in Scientology.)
The paper itself was specifically about deindividualization and deindividuation in Scientology.
I love it when you guys talk about topics that I have researched and know about. I looked a lot into aspects like groupthink (what it sounds like; similar to the idea of mob mentality) and obviously deindividualization (the loss of personal identity and/or the feelin of being anonymous in a group) and looked a lot into how this can have a lot of effects like not questioning and accepting orders including ones that are violent, the silencing of minority voices, and other conditions that allow the cult leader to control members and make it hard to leave.
It gets even more interesting when you look at the effects of rituals. (There's this interesting study done on ritualistic synchrony that breaks down the positive and negative effects and the strength of different actions.)
I wish I had seen this episode sooner, but I found it very interesting!
In regards to people not caring about people who have mental illness I think a big reason is because most, if not all, mental illness is either very difficult to treat or we have no current effective treatment. If it were possible to treat someone in an straightforward and effective way, then send them on their merry way, I think a lot more people would be like “yeah, let’s do that!”, but it is hard to get people to care about a problem that doesn’t have a simple or clean cut solution as it currently stands. In cases of chronic, severe mental illness, the only “solution” really is to have the person live in a group care home for the rest of their life, a system which has its own flaws.
26:15 to be fair, all cults are built on something, they offer people something that helps people, at least in the moment. most people think they're too smart to fall for a cult but in reality cult members have above average intelligence and this self-confidence is what makes them susceptible: the cult just needs to convince them something was their own idea. it starts off small, like affirmations or meditation or even activism work. you know, fulfil some sort of need of the mark's in a very non-committal way so they don't feel forced or like somebody has put ideas in their head. and here's the thing: the guided breathing exercises or little activism activities have to work, or at least make you feel better about yourself, otherwise no-one would sign up for the more hardcore parts. you feel better and think what's the harm in doing more of these things, it all seems so reasonable and innocent and these people around me all are normal. and you keep going and doing the things you're told to do... and soon your guard is completely down. and you've taken a hundred baby steps & have no sense how far you are from the starting point.
Grew up Christian and still believe the main teachings. In response to what Luke was saying at around 35 minutes it's not just that it says she was a virgin it's the whole "knew" no man thing according to what I've been taught but I haven't studied it really, and I think I've heard it taught that if you sin you "miss the point of life" meaning heaven. I don't remember much specifically about sin sending you to hell they usually focused more on if you have sin you can't be in heaven. Cory's explanation of not knowing the morality of God was very good.
Definitely check out if you haven't already the book: Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith
by Jon Krakauer. It goes into the world of Mormonism and Fundamentalist Mormons and the ways that it controls them but it could probably be applied to other religions as well.
It seems like you’ve been doing a lot of psychology related episodes recently. I’m not as interested in it, but it’s still really cool and I hope you are all doing well :)))
They're probably my favorite kind of episode, to be honest.
The patreons always vote for psychology related ones. And it's the patreons choice what topics go to vote. They have mentioned before how it's not their favourite or best topic either but the patreons love it. I love psychology but i dont always vote for psychology topics because there is soooo much more interesting stuff that gets suggested
When you were talking about the definition of cults; isnt one of the aspects of a cult that the members are being secluded from their friends/families etc and another aspect that they are obliged to give a certain amount of money or have to share their wealth with the cult etc? These aspects would exlude political parties and recognized religons from being cults
There is a fish that looks surprisingly like the flying spaghetti monster and its an underwater creature. A kind of Bathyphysa conifera.
I am religious, I’m Jewish and I’ve recently joined the conservative movement (which always makes me feel the need to mention is a very politically and socially progressive movement, but religiously conservative). I think there are definitely some Jewish cults, but for the most part the structure of the religion discourages their formation. Even sects like Chabad that people on the outside may see as cult like really aren’t anything like Christian or non-religious cults and the people who are a part of them generally want to be there. (Can’t say the same about the satmars and Neturei karta, though. They’re very cult like.)
You talked about going as a mole on scientology, on "oh no Ross and Carrie" the podcast they have 6 part series on scientology.
The podcast they go to this cults and stuff and become part of it
I've heard one really interesting interpretation of why god made a world where crime and poverty and all that stuff happens. The interpretation is that the other option was worse. A world without free will.
I'd love to hear another episode on this topic!
Please please please do another pod over cults this was so interesting and I love the way you guys discuss things ❤
I just found you guys and I love these
Behavior Control, Information Control, Thought Control, Emotion Control
Former cult member 🙋🏾♀
We genuinely believed and yes I think that makes it less sinister. Think of it as a disease. There ARE some people (normally sexual predators - YAY) who know it’s all bullshit and are there to exploit but normally people are motivated by fear of death dressed as “love”. Very toxic. I’m still recovering and wonder if I ever will fully. Even as I was coming out of the group I had shame etc as the system is built to make you feel like you are the prophesied nay-sayers, that if you turn away it was always meant to be and you never knew God. It feels like grieving and very isolating as the loving cocoon you had becomes a project where you are now a thing that is lost and needs saving. You weren’t allowed to intimately socialise with the outside world so you have no one if you leave. You only have the perceived “evil world” trying to suck you in and the toxic home trying to love bomb you back; neither being able to bridge the gap on the you who wants to be free and find yourself without judgement of the sides. I see myself as infinitely lucky to have made it out and still be here.
This came out right after I watched Charlie Says. Perfect timing.
Yes, please do more podcasts about cults! 😀
I'm religious, LDS, but I like to keep an open mind for cultural problems (where our religion can have unintended cultural consequences, like "way too many kids" etc
I grew up in JW and it's definitely a cult. I left 25 years ago and still didn't really realise it was a cult until I watched a lot of ex JW content on UA-cam this year. I'm a happy Pagan Witch these days.
i loved the scientology bit, my parents are scientologists and raised me as such. it was horrible and im so glad i was able to get out of it
Growing up with religious grandparents and not so religion parents I’ve turned out to be not religious at all when my cousins are quite religion. I really wanted to become a believer at some point in my life and I read lots of information about different religions and they all want me to do somethings other than just believing. Which I’m I am not OK with it if I am still not religious.
About a Mormons tho, I met a Young Mormon woman and she is a part of LGBTQ+ community and was a bit frustrated with the religion, but not with the beliefs. And when the elder (or whatever they call it) predicted her life(IKR, that is a thing), using gender neutral pronouns she was so happy. Their practices are evolving like back in the days several wife was a thing and nobody really does it anymore.
That's going to be interesting
I would like to hear more about cults and in particular the BITE model of cult identification.
The question "are you religious" is a very complex one for me at the moment, I'm afraid!
not me falling asleep to these every night
I'm definitly culturaly catholic but haven't been to a mass since my niece was batised long time. As in believing, I'm not sure.
As in Western European Catholic, which is quite a bit different than concervative American Catholic.
I am not religious, but raised catholic
I'm not sure if this counts, but I'm an atheo-pagan. What that means is that I am an atheist who practices a reverence for the natural world. I don't literally believe in the gods, but I respect them as metaphorical representations of the natural world.
I would call myself religious, I am Jewish but I was brought up in a multi-religious household, my mum is jewish and my dad is a Jehovah's witness (for context my parents are still together and im aware i have a weird religious upbringing)
Im also agnostic and LGTQ+
I’m not a JW but I’m pretty sure your dad should technically be excommunicated for being in a relationship with a Jew
@@charliev4156 with my family the situation is kinda complicated but if you are in a relationship with a non jw before you become a jw then it’s allowed
I went to columbus state. It's a community college in columbus ohio. it is not a...lets say high end college. Think remedial high school. I hope their sources for that paper hold up. Okay their english department isn't bad. It's good for prerequisites before transferring to a better university.
I am non-denominational Christian and I technically grew up in a cult.
I completely forgot I was a new patron until I heard my name 😂
I am an atheist I don't believe in eny gods but I respect the ppl who do because it makes them happy and who am I to take that away:)
FOLLOW UP FOLLOW UP FOLLOW UP!
I have heard from multiple people who grew up Seventh Day Adventist that left describe it as a doomsday cult. Based on their stories I would probably also call them a racist cult.
I'm a Wiccan :)
☀️ ☀️
The term that religious studies scholars use to describe more or less what Luke is getting at is "new religious movement."
the idea of hell as we understand it is rooted in Dante’s Divine Comedy, written in the 14th century. Before that, the concept of hell as a place where you go to be tortured as punishment for your sins did not exist.
A cult is an abusive relationship on a bigger scale, there is normally a leader, the abuser, and the followers who are victims,but they can also be abusers. They usually use religions, spirituality and sometimes also drugs as tools to introduce and manipulate people.
I am an agnostic atheist and am not religious as of yet.
Spaghetti is pastafarian communion
Hi over-shearing here. My entire family is christian and I am agnostic. And my mum recently got diagnosed with terminal cancer. I feel that it's a bit condescending when people tell me it's God's plan, and they will pray for her. And that she will end up in heaven. Well meant but tiring.
I'm a Quaker, but I also am basically Agnostic with my religion providing more of a moral code and way of living life.
I am in a joke cult, my friends came together it began with becoming blood brothers then we chose a leader, then we gave each other biblical names, and then we got tattoos, it's all ironic for now and I hope it will stay ironic
now we are baptizing ppl with the blood of our brothers every other week
I think that a pyramid scheme is an MLM with no product. It’s just giving money to the leader and finding people to give money to you. There’s youtube videos about the “Airplane Game”. Pyramid schemes are illegal in most countries I think? MLMs have products so they are allowed to exist but have similar ethical issues.
I was raised catholic, now I'm very anticlerical, but not atheist. I would say Im agnostic and spiritual
Does the number of followers change whether a group is a cult or not? I think it is interesting how current societal group which fit the definition of cults are not recognized as cults because of their political power in society. Even if we say all cults are bad or have a negative connotation; some cough religious or patriotic organizations have practiced historical acts of violence; based on that train of thought would still be a cult.
Where do I go to apply for entry to Luke's cult? 🤓
I too beilieve i would get got by scientology
Guyyys... hate to break it to ya... the italians didnt invent spagetthie, they were invented im east asia and marco polo brought them to italy...
Not religious and also asexual so I don’t really know why I am here but im here
They are all cult's the distinction isn't cult or not, but constructive cult vs destructive cult.
I would join Lukes Cult no questions asked
Not asking questions is probably key
Well what happened within Judaism was that after the Persians liberated them from the Babylonians, some Jewish sects started to be influenced by the dualistic views of their religion. Out of those influences we started to see groups who came up with an evil entity in opposition to their beneficent one, aka the devil, and a realm in opposition to the one God resided in, replacing Sheol (the Jewish Hades where all people go) with a divine realm of heaven and one for those who go against their God and/or who serve his evil counterpart. These groups would develop into the apocalyptic schools of Judaism, believing that good and evil must clash in a world ending event with one side coming out on top of the other. Their leaders would claim to be the Messiah of the faith and, believing that it was the end times, would often violently direct their followers to act out against their colonial overlords and perceived enemies as the forces of cosmic evil. This led to a huge amount of persecution and Jews in the end being forced out of the Holy Land after Bar Kokhba's revolt.
In response to this cultural, political, and religious crisis, the Jewish Rabbinical leadership turned strongly against any ideas associated with these movements and vilified them in religious texts, Christianity being included in the collective. They also worked towards greater centralization of religious thought and to control who had access to religious information through an education at Yeshivas. Those attempting to spread information while lacking the proper theological credentials would be derided and shamed by Jewish religious leadership out of a fear of their potential heterodoxy becoming a threat to the safety of Jewish communities that now existed as vulnerable minorities in foreign lands. All of those dualistic views that were popularized around and that had been developing for 500 years before Jesus' time, got thrown under the bus and left in the dustbins of history among Jews with a new rabbinical standard coming to replace it under Orthodox Judaism.
Im not religious but some of my family are Christian
I think the definition of a cult should include something about it being harmful to members of the group or members of the group being harmful to people outside of the group.
And yes, I'd view christianity and fhe conservative party as cults.
Brought up Catholic and my whole family is, messed me up p bad but im not an athiest im just not too arsed. Spiritual maybe? I like ghosts 👻
It's kinda hard to prove God exist for us the creation. It's like a painter trying to present itself in the paint or a novelist trying to "show" himself in the story. You can't say the author is not real, but if you're in the perspective of the character in the author's novel, you will say that the author does not exist, right?
I grew up in a religious Christian household, however I believe that all organized religion is inherently doomed to be corrupt by the nature of how it works. I am a general deist though.
Somewhat religious - I am muslim.
my religion is complicated. I was raised christian and i still believe in god and the other spiritual aspects of christianity but, as i learned about the serious issues in the church, I became less comfortable being part of it.
no
I, like corry was raised around Christianity but never really believed in it
Not religious. But i was into wicca alot. Sooo no god but be kind to others etc. X
I was raised Mormon. The cuture of Mormons in the UK and the US are very different, because they are minorities in the UK. In the Western US, where I am from, Mormons have kind of a fake sense of niceness, and the men are very very power hungry and think they are better than everybody because they have the Priesthood( or speak for God). I left because I was trying to go to the temple (which they believe is neccssary for salvation) and they wouldn't deem me worthy because I am a trans man.
Growing up trans in the church led me to come out at a later age, at age 19. And I am still not able to transition due to lack of family acceptance and I am not financially stable enough to live on my own yet
I was raised that republican type of Christianity that looks like fascism when you tilt your head and squint.
I am still Christian, but as a gay man I draw my own conclusions about God rather than having people tell me what he's like. I take things written in the bible with a bit of salt, and when I'm looking at what I should do in a religious context I don't ask what the bible says, but what was the point the bible was trying to get across:
Love God, Love people. Seek Justice, love mercy, walk humbly with your God.
I don't wanna read like "oh I'm not like those Other Christians" tho, because there are a lot of people who genuinely buy into the rhetoric of modern Christianity and genuinely believe that they would go to hell for, say, being LGBTQ or supporting the community. They are victims of the religion's modern perversion as well in that they've had their autonomy taken from them.
BUT Even in the modern translations of the Bible, God doesn't claim the ones that use the religion as an excuse to oppress people.
I am a christian.
I was not baptized and my parents tried to keep the knowledge of god or religion from me
I am a bit embarrassed as I read the title as "Science of C**ts"
I know, I am sorry 🙈
I'm atheist Hindu
islam baby
I think a lot of the talkingpoints you make are overlooking the forced extrem conformity of moralic judgment, and hard punishment for questioning this morality.
if you look at it including this point, christianity isnt actualy a cult bc it has such a wide range of perspective but for example the Naziparty sounds more like a cult and "Stalinism" in many aspects. For modern right wing partys this is the case in many aspects too, im not sure tho if you fully could call them a cult
@@schwarzeasche7538 stalinism is straight-up called a personality cult and the soviet people living under his rule really felt like the world as they know it would end they'd all be scarily lost without the good father of the country. I think you're very right connecting authoritarian political parties with cults.
because all cults that last any significant time or achieve such extreme control over its members that they cause something extreme that the general population is forced to take notice of are run very deliberately and the leaders are always extremely aware of what they're doing and all their moves are very calculated and micromanaged. much more so than normal people think probable. but where do cult leaders get these detailed blueprints? well they look at politicians and historic military leaders who "inspired" people to action. the way cults practice even mass sucides and do test runs is just straight out of military playbooks. it's not a coincidence that lots of cult leaders are ex-military or dropouts from other high-discipline environments that taught them the basics & made them enamored with the power of mobilizing people for a common goal.
the reason why it's so hard to draw hard lines what is and isn't a cult is that lots of things use "cult mechanics" in fact they're just our psychological mechanisms. Even friend groups can run on them if there's a dominant person who others are afraid of. imo it's just a question of increasing control and co-ordination & the more intense it gets, as markers pile up, at some point you are inarguably a cult.
missionary work is never good sorry lol
Pagan
Not religious, don't like the church, any
Christianity is not a cult. It's based on historical, accurate and provable true facts.
Christianity may not be a cult, but it's not based on anything provable
@@Emil-lf3no my challenge to you is to do some research, look into history and try to show there is no proof. you’ll be surprised at what you find.
Christianity is based on worshipping Jesus as a diety who never said to worship him and he prayed to God himself. Does God pray to God? This is a man-made religion. Even Paul came and edited things e.g being able to eat pork. Most Christians celebrate Christmas which is in fact a pagan holiday. Jesus was not even born in the winter.
There is historical evidence of Jesus but there is no solid basis on worshipping Jesus.
@@Emil-lf3no or truth. The idea of worshipping a man, whether he is the 'son of God/God incarnate/flesh part of the trinity' is a perverse thought. That's why Christianity is not the truth, and Jesus knew this, which is why he never alluded to people worshipping him (yes, Jesus was a historical figure).
It's people who made images of him and started worshipping him - Christianity is basically idol worship.
@@Ri57490 I would strongly disagree with your statement about not worshiping Jesus as deity or God. His disciples preached that he was the son of God and was to be worshiped as savior and Lord. They all died defending this belief. Matthew, Mark and John wrote about the evidence that Jesus was God and was to be worshiped in their gospels. Each of their Gospel accounts ends with the resurrection. Read Ephesians chapter 1 in the New Testament, written by Paul and John chapter six, along with Revelation chapters four and five, written by the apostle John. Both of these accounts describe the relationship between the father and the son, how they have been together throughout eternity and both are worthy to be worshiped as God. These are examples of accurate, historical accounts that speak of Jesus and the father being one in and both worthy of worship.