Started looking at new campers a few weeks ago to replace / upgrade our 2015 5th wheel. Did a few walkthroughs on the Solitudes, and did find a couple of floor plans that we liked. Decided to look at another brand at the same time after my wife questioned me on all the frame flex issues. After a little research and helpful videos like yours, we are definitely going with another brand that overbuilds their frames and has a different design for each floor plan. A little heavier and higher priced but makes me feel that I won't have to deal with checking everything over with a magnifying glass before we leave for a trip or dealing with nightmare warranty work. Thank you again for helping to make us all aware of these issues.
Have done a lot of research, looking to purchase a Jayco North Point. As I noted, each floor plan has a specific frame and is over built. Not aware of frame flex issues with the NorthPoint brand.
@@kevinmulkin3002 Still a Lippert frame. Every manufacturer specs their frames for each model and Lippert still builds it. DRV has had an industry leading one of a kind frame for many years. But it is still built by lippert and has had issues in the same areas as GD.
Well, Greg, you do a heckuva job and us RV owners cannot thank you enough. I really do believe the RV industry is waking up especially now that the national highway transportation safety administration is getting on board.
If it wasn't for the NHTSA, Grand Design would still be denying the problem. For the rep to say he hadn't heard of multiple repairs is a way of dodging the concern without lying and saying it isn't happening. To make matters worse, they will continue using the defective frames until they run out. Pretty sad for a once well-respected RV manufacturer. Just like Tiffin was a good RV builder until Thor bought them out.
It really blows my mind that Grand Design would continue building on the old frames and sell them to customers!!!! It seems to me that GS has no regard for the wellbeing of their customers. Shame on them, and they should suffer bankruptcy for their arrogance!
Greg, what I can't get wrapped around my head is ... As you said in a past video, Lippert has told GD that the frame design was inadequate ... yet, Lippert continues to manufacture the frame to GD's "specs"... How can that be right ??? Does Lippert require GD to sign some sort of hold harmless agreement ???
Typical example of Corporate Ostrich Syndrome (COS). This is where a company says they "haven't heard of these things happening", so either they've decided to bury their collective corporate heads in the sand, or they're in denial. Meanwhile people who have spent, in some cases, fortunes for an RV that poses a real safety hazard to them, potentially others on the roads. You're right... do your homework but some people don't know what they don't know, and will still buy something, without an inspection, and get ridden by GD COS. Be safe folks...
I find it interesting that NHTSA is more concerned about cargo doors opening up, rather than catastrophic frame failures while going down the road. My brother was towing his 3 year old Keystone Cougar 5th wheel on 1-80 Interstate and went over rough bridge joint in Wyoming. The frame around the pin box failed and dropped the trailer into the bed of his truck at 75 MPH; only the tailgate stopped the trailer from coming off the truck. I was following him towing my Montana 5th wheel and flashed my blinkers to help him slowly make to the side of the road. If he wasn't a skilled truck driver, I'm convinced he would have crashed, or lost the trailer into me, as a result of the sudden catastrophic frame failure. The Trailer was totaled by insurance company and $9000 of damage occurred to his truck. It's not only GD having frame issues, it's Lippert frames in general. Two years after this incident, my Montana 5th wheel had Frame Flex that caused broken wall stud welds near the front bedroom slide. The difference is Keystone stepped up, owned the issue and fixed it.
Holy cow!! We’ve heard rumors of the pin box dropping. Unbelievable that nobody was killed. I agree that Nessa needs to expand their view of this issue and don’t just focus on exterior cargo doors opening. That might merely be a symptom of a much larger frame failure issue.
Great work Greg!!!! Being a contractor you must also question securing a wall section of a 5th wheel with lag bolts into soft wood and not being surprised when the wood fails. The lower thin steel sill plate fails repeatedly in photos and could be easily remedied by increasing the thickness of the sill plate to carry the weight of the wall. Let the lag bolts hold the wall to the frame, but don't rely on them to help support the weight. I would love to see an independent structural engineer's opinion of this design.
I maintain that we are dealing with a fundamental flaw in the basic design of RV frames from Lippert. That’s the one truly common denominator is the fact it’s a Lippert frame. If it was just GD demanding Lippert build a frame that Lippert was telling them wasn’t good enough we wouldn’t be seeing all the failures with other brands. Consider most importantly that we don’t have an identified root cause for these failures. There are some common fixes being applied but based on people who have to go back more than once it’s clear those fixes (like the lag bolts) while they may be effective in some cases are not addressing the root causes of the failures. It engineering 101. If you have a failure and don’t know why it happened you can’t really fix it. You might be able to apply various band aids with some degree of success but you honestly can’t know if it’s fixed since you don’t know why it failed. If GD and Lippert had recognized the need to do that root cause analysis early on they could have announced why the failures were happening, what they were doing to fix it, and then just stood behind their products this would have been a small blip in the RV universe. They could have used this to actually enhance their reputations if they had just done the right thing. Instead the brands are now seriously tarnished in the eyes of many consumers. I’m honestly shocked some builder hasn’t made going with frames that haven’t been built by Lippert across the board a major marketing point.
Ummm... If the frame problems were from short cuts and poor materials etc - yes, Lippert. If the problems are engineering, wall attachments/openings and design weight ratings... that is the manufacturer of the RVs.
Correct but they have the VAST majority of the issues. As you know, each manufacturer specs their own unique frame and has Lippert build it so one has to wonder why this one assembler has so many more instances of frame failure than their competitors.
@@davehuber6949 GD will argue that they produced more of these units so they would naturally have more instances of frame failure. They will also tell you that they "fix every unit" but we have too many people that can attest that isn't true. I think they are trying to fix units but it's an unfixable problem that will most likely reoccur. Other assemblers sent their units to Affinity RV Group in Indiana to get fixed, presumably without putting their owners through the wringer first. Each assembler is doing it differently but there is no arguing that GD is doing it very, very poorly.
Greg, has anyone started a class action suit with Grand design? If they ever get one out on Jayco, I;m on board. My problems have not been frame issues, mine has been the slide. I have had it in 5 times for different slide issues. I’m feeling I got a built on Monday by hangover workers. I’m 64 and this will sadly be one of the biggest mistakes of my life, thinking a new camper = fun, (NOT )
It’s my understanding that there are far more than 22 cases with frame flex issue, I know I’ve seen a lot more than 22 people on UA-cam that were affected. This affects far more than just grand design multiple brands use the same frames. let’s hope that this “investigation” leads to some action to prevent any dangers.
@@CruizinWithTheCarsons Agreed! Many people we've talked to didn't want to report until they had a chance to work it out with GD. They seem to be fearful that they won't get their repairs done if they make a report with NHTSA.
@@WestsontheMove Correct! The last I looked a couple of days there was 101 complaints but NHTSA cherry picked what they wanted out of this and they are looking at only symptoms and not the overall cause of these symptoms, which is poor design and engineering of these Grand Design RVs.
I've been screaming from the rooftop for 2 years, Lippert is also complicit in this mess. Lippert has not shut these manufacturers off that are purchasing too light of a frame. By not standing up to Grand Design, Lippert is ad much at fault as Grand Design! They're going down a dead end road and they're going to have a DISASTER at the end of it because they cannot ignore what's going on..... LIPPERT SHAME, SHAME, SHAME ON YOU!
A year ago I did a lot of research on which RV manufacturers had the best quality and Grand Design was always near the top. Before spending around $100K +/- on a travel trailer, I wanted to start with a used one to determine what we really wanted, or wanted at all. This video is just one of too many about Grand Design's poor quality and integrity that I don't think I'll even consider them. We always trash the Chinese made junk on the market but the "Americans" are catching up. Poor quality and no after sale support. Just like the last Ford truck I bought.
How far back in years does this go? The 23 complaints are from models 2017 forward or they just haven’t gotten complaints from earlier models?? I have a 2015 350M. I definitely have frame flex going on but I am not sure anything is broke or cracked yet. I have done some inspections myself of what I can see but haven’t removed the front cap to dive deeper.
I can almost see a federal regulation coming out, requiring all structural parts to be tested for continued function at 200% of legal load strength. That'll solve the problem, but its gonna cost.
Disgusting response to say this is the norm. The owners are absorbing losses that they shouldn't have to. This is a nightmare because their safety and the safety of others around them on the road are at risk. Also this should be a nightmare for insurance companies that should fight for laws for the companies to pay for inspectors on site to check the stages of the build.
Chinese or Canadian or any other location isn't the question. The question is the grade of steel. From my experience the grade they've used since early 2000s is brittle on top of too thin of a gauge. All too save a dollar.
@@Itsa_Mea- They do use American steel from manufacturers close by. The problem is that the steel is too thin for the proposed use. Their goal, apparently, is to reduce weight in the finished products not necessarily save money. Like tripping over a dollar to pick up a shiny dime. All y'all have heard the old adage: "It's better to overtruck the trailer than overtrailer the truck." In this case, it would be: "It's better to overframe the trailer than overtrailer the frame." Our trailer has a box steel frame like my pickup truck. It is stout. Probably need to go back to box-steel frames instead of using I-beam frames.
We bought our 2015 GD Momentum new . We were proud owners as GD had a great reputation then . So sad what has happened to so many people because of GD greed . We were lucky, no serious problems …….
I hope I’m wrong, but my guess is they will find that it’s not a significant safety issue. And there will still be people on the hook for thousands of dollars of repairs cosmetically. That sucks.
The NHTSA investigation seems to center around exterior bay doors opening, hence the low number of reports, but frame failure exhibits in other areas, such as loose pin boxes recessing into the upper deck. Should the pin box come loose completely, you would have a huge safety concern. It's all about ensuring that owners of these RVs report to NHTSA when they have issues.
Lmmfao I guess shit does eventually run back uphill. I can't wait for karma to catch up to these rv manufacturers who are willfully and knowingly screwing over others.
GD is a division of Winnebago....research ho [poorly they have designed their motorhome roofs and walls. The GD issues started after being bought by Winnebago.
Sure glad we this A.H. Going to bat for us! How can he do any better than those who can before? Just as t stop buying this shit. Our Hero here bought two POS. When will people learn? Thank you.
Started looking at new campers a few weeks ago to replace / upgrade our 2015 5th wheel. Did a few walkthroughs on the Solitudes, and did find a couple of floor plans that we liked. Decided to look at another brand at the same time after my wife questioned me on all the frame flex issues. After a little research and helpful videos like yours, we are definitely going with another brand that overbuilds their frames and has a different design for each floor plan. A little heavier and higher priced but makes me feel that I won't have to deal with checking everything over with a magnifying glass before we leave for a trip or dealing with nightmare warranty work. Thank you again for helping to make us all aware of these issues.
@@kevinmulkin3002 please share the brand/brands you're considering. Thank you.
Have done a lot of research, looking to purchase a Jayco North Point. As I noted, each floor plan has a specific frame and is over built. Not aware of frame flex issues with the NorthPoint brand.
@@kevinmulkin3002 Still a Lippert frame. Every manufacturer specs their frames for each model and Lippert still builds it. DRV has had an industry leading one of a kind frame for many years. But it is still built by lippert and has had issues in the same areas as GD.
Great job. Enjoyed it and you are starting make serious strides forward on these dangerous issues.
Something has to change.
About time . Glad to hear
I don’t know how anyone buys grand design. You’re doing the work for the people Greg. Good work, those phone calls are pretty damning as well!
Well, Greg, you do a heckuva job and us RV owners cannot thank you enough. I really do believe the RV industry is waking up especially now that the national highway transportation safety administration is getting on board.
RV community, TOGETHER, we can make a difference.
If it wasn't for the NHTSA, Grand Design would still be denying the problem. For the rep to say he hadn't heard of multiple repairs is a way of dodging the concern without lying and saying it isn't happening. To make matters worse, they will continue using the defective frames until they run out. Pretty sad for a once well-respected RV manufacturer. Just like Tiffin was a good RV builder until Thor bought them out.
Thanks for your continued help
It really blows my mind that Grand Design would continue building on the old frames and sell them to customers!!!! It seems to me that GS has no regard for the wellbeing of their customers. Shame on them, and they should suffer bankruptcy for their arrogance!
They messed with the wrong guy! Excellent work and dedication to the truth!
Greg, what I can't get wrapped around my head is ... As you said in a past video, Lippert has told GD that the frame design was inadequate ... yet, Lippert continues to manufacture the frame to GD's "specs"... How can that be right ??? Does Lippert require GD to sign some sort of hold harmless agreement ???
As long as Lippert builds to the EXACT design submitted by GD they are free of liability.
Typical example of Corporate Ostrich Syndrome (COS). This is where a company says they "haven't heard of these things happening", so either they've decided to bury their collective corporate heads in the sand, or they're in denial. Meanwhile people who have spent, in some cases, fortunes for an RV that poses a real safety hazard to them, potentially others on the roads. You're right... do your homework but some people don't know what they don't know, and will still buy something, without an inspection, and get ridden by GD COS. Be safe folks...
I find it interesting that NHTSA is more concerned about cargo doors opening up, rather than catastrophic frame failures while going down the road. My brother was towing his 3 year old Keystone Cougar 5th wheel on 1-80 Interstate and went over rough bridge joint in Wyoming. The frame around the pin box failed and dropped the trailer into the bed of his truck at 75 MPH; only the tailgate stopped the trailer from coming off the truck. I was following him towing my Montana 5th wheel and flashed my blinkers to help him slowly make to the side of the road. If he wasn't a skilled truck driver, I'm convinced he would have crashed, or lost the trailer into me, as a result of the sudden catastrophic frame failure. The Trailer was totaled by insurance company and $9000 of damage occurred to his truck. It's not only GD having frame issues, it's Lippert frames in general. Two years after this incident, my Montana 5th wheel had Frame Flex that caused broken wall stud welds near the front bedroom slide. The difference is Keystone stepped up, owned the issue and fixed it.
Yikes!
Holy cow!! We’ve heard rumors of the pin box dropping. Unbelievable that nobody was killed. I agree that Nessa needs to expand their view of this issue and don’t just focus on exterior cargo doors opening. That might merely be a symptom of a much larger frame failure issue.
Great work Greg!!!! Being a contractor you must also question securing a wall section of a 5th wheel with lag bolts into soft wood and not being surprised when the wood fails. The lower thin steel sill plate fails repeatedly in photos and could be easily remedied by increasing the thickness of the sill plate to carry the weight of the wall. Let the lag bolts hold the wall to the frame, but don't rely on them to help support the weight. I would love to see an independent structural engineer's opinion of this design.
I maintain that we are dealing with a fundamental flaw in the basic design of RV frames from Lippert. That’s the one truly common denominator is the fact it’s a Lippert frame.
If it was just GD demanding Lippert build a frame that Lippert was telling them wasn’t good enough we wouldn’t be seeing all the failures with other brands.
Consider most importantly that we don’t have an identified root cause for these failures. There are some common fixes being applied but based on people who have to go back more than once it’s clear those fixes (like the lag bolts) while they may be effective in some cases are not addressing the root causes of the failures.
It engineering 101. If you have a failure and don’t know why it happened you can’t really fix it. You might be able to apply various band aids with some degree of success but you honestly can’t know if it’s fixed since you don’t know why it failed.
If GD and Lippert had recognized the need to do that root cause analysis early on they could have announced why the failures were happening, what they were doing to fix it, and then just stood behind their products this would have been a small blip in the RV universe. They could have used this to actually enhance their reputations if they had just done the right thing. Instead the brands are now seriously tarnished in the eyes of many consumers.
I’m honestly shocked some builder hasn’t made going with frames that haven’t been built by Lippert across the board a major marketing point.
Spot on!!
More BS....Lippert builds to the coach manufacturers design PERIOD!!!!!
Ummm... If the frame problems were from short cuts and poor materials etc - yes, Lippert. If the problems are engineering, wall attachments/openings and design weight ratings... that is the manufacturer of the RVs.
Mine was not a GD. It was taken back to the factory, repaired and returned. A 2021 model and GD is not alone.
All the RV manufacturers need to be investigated. They're building crap.
Grand designs isn’t the only manufacturer that has frame problems
Correct but they have the VAST majority of the issues. As you know, each manufacturer specs their own unique frame and has Lippert build it so one has to wonder why this one assembler has so many more instances of frame failure than their competitors.
How long have you been following this subject? Just curious.
@ are are they trying to get out of fixing them that’s why you hear more about grand design
@ about 2 years ago
@@davehuber6949 GD will argue that they produced more of these units so they would naturally have more instances of frame failure. They will also tell you that they "fix every unit" but we have too many people that can attest that isn't true. I think they are trying to fix units but it's an unfixable problem that will most likely reoccur. Other assemblers sent their units to Affinity RV Group in Indiana to get fixed, presumably without putting their owners through the wringer first. Each assembler is doing it differently but there is no arguing that GD is doing it very, very poorly.
I read the brochure and it doesn’t say anything about the trailer coming with gaslighting,I guess that’s only found out when something breaks.
Great video! Do more.
No trailer or 5th wheel should ever have these issues. These current problems are a life safety issue.
Along with doors falling off, doors that will not close, roof leaks etc.
Keep up the good work
Greg, has anyone started a class action suit with Grand design? If they ever get one out on Jayco, I;m on board. My problems have not been frame issues, mine has been the slide. I have had it in 5 times for different slide issues. I’m feeling I got a built on Monday by hangover workers. I’m 64 and this will sadly be one of the biggest mistakes of my life, thinking a new camper = fun, (NOT )
It’s my understanding that there are far more than 22 cases with frame flex issue, I know I’ve seen a lot more than 22 people on UA-cam that were affected. This affects far more than just grand design multiple brands use the same frames. let’s hope that this “investigation” leads to some action to prevent any dangers.
The problem is not enough people are reporting to NHTSA.
I agree but I think they are isolating just those that reported exterior doors opening up as they impact "the traveling public".
@@CruizinWithTheCarsons Agreed! Many people we've talked to didn't want to report until they had a chance to work it out with GD. They seem to be fearful that they won't get their repairs done if they make a report with NHTSA.
@@WestsontheMove Correct! The last I looked a couple of days there was 101 complaints but NHTSA cherry picked what they wanted out of this and they are looking at only symptoms and not the overall cause of these symptoms, which is poor design and engineering of these Grand Design RVs.
I've been screaming from the rooftop for 2 years, Lippert is also complicit in this mess. Lippert has not shut these manufacturers off that are purchasing too light of a frame. By not standing up to Grand Design, Lippert is ad much at fault as Grand Design! They're going down a dead end road and they're going to have a DISASTER at the end of it because they cannot ignore what's going on..... LIPPERT SHAME, SHAME, SHAME ON YOU!
Oh damn, I clicked my heels three times now I'm back in Kansas again.
Nice state, but a long ride home.
It’s about time something is happening to make them accountable more people should come forward with their problems thanks Greg
Definitely needs to be reported, across all manufacturers that are having the problem. Accountability needs to happen.
A year ago I did a lot of research on which RV manufacturers had the best quality and Grand Design was always near the top. Before spending around $100K +/- on a travel trailer, I wanted to start with a used one to determine what we really wanted, or wanted at all. This video is just one of too many about Grand Design's poor quality and integrity that I don't think I'll even consider them. We always trash the Chinese made junk on the market but the "Americans" are catching up. Poor quality and no after sale support. Just like the last Ford truck I bought.
How far back in years does this go? The 23 complaints are from models 2017 forward or they just haven’t gotten complaints from earlier models?? I have a 2015 350M. I definitely have frame flex going on but I am not sure anything is broke or cracked yet. I have done some inspections myself of what I can see but haven’t removed the front cap to dive deeper.
I would be will to pay a little more to get a beefer frame
Buy a Riverstone,DRV or Luxe !
Northwood manufacturing Artic Fox
Don C, Chris H & Katie B don't give a dang about fixing their junk. Gas warranty is worthless.
I can almost see a federal regulation coming out, requiring all structural parts to be tested for continued function at 200% of legal load strength. That'll solve the problem, but its gonna cost.
Somebody find me another Fireball 5th wheel from the 80s. Guess I should have never sold mine
It's not "frame flex", it's "Frame Failure".
Yep, I know that. The common verbiage that the industry has coined is frame flex. So, I'm just using what everyone else relates it to.
We currently own 2018 solitude fifth wheel what now. How do we find out if we have frame flex .
Really? Lag bolts holding everything together? It seems to me that Grand Design is overloading those frames.
Biggest line of BS if i've ever heard of, they need to be put out of business
This is why i wouldn’t touch a fifth wheel unless it’s a drv, or luxe !!
Disgusting response to say this is the norm. The owners are absorbing losses that they shouldn't have to. This is a nightmare because their safety and the safety of others around them on the road are at risk. Also this should be a nightmare for insurance companies that should fight for laws for the companies to pay for inspectors on site to check the stages of the build.
Good grief are they using Chinese steel
That will only be determined by a class action lawsuit where it would be determined in "discovery".
Hey hey, my brother Jeremy, I do believe I'll be seeing you tomorrow, virtually that is.
That’s Right!
Chinese or Canadian or any other location isn't the question. The question is the grade of steel. From my experience the grade they've used since early 2000s is brittle on top of too thin of a gauge. All too save a dollar.
@@Itsa_Mea- They do use American steel from manufacturers close by. The problem is that the steel is too thin for the proposed use. Their goal, apparently, is to reduce weight in the finished products not necessarily save money. Like tripping over a dollar to pick up a shiny dime. All y'all have heard the old adage: "It's better to overtruck the trailer than overtrailer the truck." In this case, it would be: "It's better to overframe the trailer than overtrailer the frame." Our trailer has a box steel frame like my pickup truck. It is stout. Probably need to go back to box-steel frames instead of using I-beam frames.
We bought our 2015 GD Momentum new . We were proud owners as GD had a great reputation then . So sad what has happened to so many people because of GD greed . We were lucky, no serious problems …….
I will never buy a Grand Design.
I hope I’m wrong, but my guess is they will find that it’s not a significant safety issue. And there will still be people on the hook for thousands of dollars of repairs cosmetically. That sucks.
So a loose pin box with broken welds is not a significant safety issue, as just one example?
The NHTSA investigation seems to center around exterior bay doors opening, hence the low number of reports, but frame failure exhibits in other areas, such as loose pin boxes recessing into the upper deck. Should the pin box come loose completely, you would have a huge safety concern. It's all about ensuring that owners of these RVs report to NHTSA when they have issues.
I kinda wonder what took them so long
😮
Lmmfao I guess shit does eventually run back uphill. I can't wait for karma to catch up to these rv manufacturers who are willfully and knowingly screwing over others.
If it is not self propelled it is not an RV,
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
LOL
GD is a division of Winnebago....research ho [poorly they have designed their motorhome roofs and walls. The GD issues started after being bought by Winnebago.
Hey give us credit please!
In the description my dear.
@@CruizinWithTheCarsonsthanks!
Sure glad we this A.H. Going to bat for us! How can he do any better than those who can before? Just as t stop buying this shit. Our Hero here bought two POS. When will people learn? Thank you.
Thanks for sharing. I hope you have a wonderful day
Cheap Steel ccp.
Don’t buy an RV, buy a Skoolie. Now that’s the best!