Why You were GOOD in SFIV, but Now Suck at SFV "SFIV was an ANOMALY" [Daigo]
Вставка
- Опубліковано 25 бер 2022
- Daigo Umehara
Mildom: www.mildom.com/profile/10467370
Twitch: / daigothebeastv
UA-cam: / @daigothebeastv
Twitter: / daigothebeastjp
Twitter(English): / daigothebeast
Facebook: / daigothebeast
Nemo Official UA-cam： / @good_nemo
Nemo Stream： / nemo_good
Nemo Twitter： / good_nemo
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Guys! If you see any clip or a part of a video you think others would like to watch,
please send me a DM on Twitter or email me (my email address can be found in the "About" section of my channel). When you do so, please send me a link and timestamps if possible. That'd make things a lot easier for me. Thanks!
I have set up a Patreon account just in case anybody wants to support me:) But before that, please consider supporting players first. Without them, there’d be nothing to translate.
/ fgctranslated - Ігри
![Daigo Gets Blamed for His Past Raging Demon Randomness "You Call Yourself a Pro!?" [Daigo]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/5kMuRFrSzgY/mqdefault.jpg)
![Daigo Gets Blamed for His Past Raging Demon Randomness "You Call Yourself a Pro!?" [Daigo]](/img/tr.png)
![Daigo Talks About Punk and His Reaction. Why Punk’s Reaction is More Than Just "FAST" [Daigo]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/vcHrWgUwpmo/mqdefault.jpg)
Bless FGC Translated for bringing us these fire Daigo takes that we would otherwise never hear about.
Yeah. I am always happy to watch these.
FGC translated is one of the pillars of the FGC
I love how the first thing Daigo thought upon reading the question is "Fuudo! Fuudo is best at answering this question". It goes to show both his humility and how he highly respects his peers/opponents.
Well said
When he is talking about "mid" hitting moves in Darkstalkers, he means overheads. Mids = attacks that need to be blocked standing in JP fighting game terminology. If you've played a 3D game like Tekken, it's just like that
thank you I was so confused
Thanks for clearing that up! I come from Tekken and my understanding of mids are attacks that can be hit standing up
"I still play SFV likes its SFIV" this guy answered his own question.
but he knows that, at no point did he do anything but say that in his own words and acknowledge that and ask if there were some gameplan changes he could quickly implement to make it more in line with SFV's systems
I play every fighting game like SF2, and I'm fine with it.
@@AsamiyaMouchou lol, corner fb traps ftw!!
Based on the characters that the guy plays, they all have bad neutral but tend to win once they have skipped neutral and started their mixup/vortex loops.
When he did SF5 the first thing he did was try to find a Laura vortex… ;)
@@malcovich_games I'm starting to think that the guy who asked is secretly Kazunoko... He just had to avoid mentioning Yun and Cammy as his real mains to stay undercover, lol.
love hearing about his understanding of fgs.
i feel like when you learn any skill you start to learn conceptual things like he does but you have to put time into it, that’s why i also kind of see why he asks “You guys don’t see it?”
Imagine Aris getting this question.
i also like this kind of content.. daigo explains his ideas to the best he can.
I feel like learning mu answers is the easy way to get better in SFV, but the commenter said they didn't have the motivation for that.
Good job FGC Translated. Thumbs up!
Someone show Sanford Kelly this video. He really needs to watch it.
With the first person his advice is not just true for video games but real fighting too. You can practice and train and be good at the techniques and skills but in a real fight it takes more than that. Ring IQ knowing how to read your opponent etc. That is the difference between competition and practice.
I can't wait to hear what he says about new update mostly what he has to say about ryu
The Aristotle of fighting games.
Dickriding
I'm interested in how he's going to receive SF6 easy mode controls.
creating a +2 situation.
What does it mean?
Can someone explain me this?
Positive frame advantage. When an opponent blocks a move, some moves leave you at an advantage as an attacker. Allowing you to act 2 frames faster than your opponent can.
Look up videos on "frame data" for a better understanding.
as in "you can move 2 frames sooner than your opponent"
in SFV training mode turn on attack data and you can see the frame data e.g. +2, +5, -1, -8. These show how many frames ahead or behind your opponent you are after an attack
As the above replies said, but to add:
The fastest normal moves (fast crouching light punches etc) in sfv hit on the third frame.
Grabs hit on the 5th frame, so as diago explains, as well as +2 being a nice little advantage for pressure, +2 also means if you grab and they punch, your grab wins.)
SF4 is bad doesn't mean SF5 is good.
Nobody says either is bad tho. Just that the core gameplay is differnt.
SF4 is greater SF than 5 for sure. It attracted a lot of the audience.
It's a very good game.
LTG is crying in the club rn
New Joel perez friends daigo umehara
preach
I hope sf6 retains the fundamental integrity of sf5 while adding more of the complexities and layer of character depth from sf4.
I mean, it's hard to do both. Hard to have some nice honest footsies when Vega is zooming everywhere.
SFV kind of does it with V triggers, like Menat and Oro.
I hope SF 6 do it’s own thing.
also can we make v trigger like an offensive thing pleeeaassee
Nope. Play nothing like IV or V.
Cant have both
I think is the speed move & combos difference , 4 is fast, 5 is slower.
If you’re good at IV but sucks at V then there’s one big reason for that: you refused to adapt and learn. You keep playing with IV in your mind when V is a DIFFERENT game and when you lose you keep blaming the game, calling it sucks, garbage, etc as your cope mechanic.
It’s not limited for SF V case too. Try playing SF II, Alpha, and III with IV in your mind and i bet it will be the same. Fighting games in general always push the idea of keeps adapting and learning. If you stop doing that then you will be left behind.
Facts!
Fr 4 was some bs tbh and I like the game
THANK YOU AND GOODNIGHT!!!
💯💯💯
This is a brain dead take. I started with SF4 and played sf2, 3s, cvs2, and more. All great games that were fun to learn and had aspects to them V does not. It's a fact that SFV characters lack the same level of depth that other fighting game characters have. Does that mean the game overall lacks depth? I personally think so, but I'd say the pro scene refutes that, so if anything it's debatable.
It's also interesting that you say players that were strong in older games, but don't play SFV refuse to adapt and it's cope, but what about when the shoe is on the other foot? What about players that tried to be good at older games and failed and then saw success in SFV where you can hee haw smash the medium punch button into an ex special move and do 40% damage with 0 effort? Are those genius fighting game players that just happened to blossom with the baby game? Nah, I think that's cope.
that isnt what this guy did though
he literally just explained that he's hit a wall and knows he needs to adapt and is asking if there are some quick to implement gameplan changes or execution things to lab
at no point did he do anything but blame himself and ask daigo a question
Daigo is a modern day Musashi Miyamoto
I haven't followed or played SFV that much but i always kept hearing that SFV is a "math fighter", at least in season 1 or season 2.
But according to Daigo that's what SF4 was.
Unless i missed something and SFV has changed a lot.
I feel SF5 was basically more like a casino, they weakened the defensive options so much that what it came down to was going for high damage 50/50 mixups all the time while relying on the unrealiability of your opponents defensive options to get in. Basicially, the game became less like chess and more like a Tekken or Marvel game. Mika's character or maybe Ibuki are the core essence of what that game was, they were all about mixups that lead to big damage with no real solid gameplay strategy other than those mixups. This was how newer players with fast reflexes who didn't really understand classical SF defense strategies like zoning were still able to win tournaments and dominate at the game using these characters in the early days.
because the game universally favored +2 situations across the board. SF4 is more tech and execution.
@@tonberrymasta you do realize tekken (and most fighting games) are wayyy more complex and satisfying for high-level players than fucking street fighter right?😂 sf is and has always been stupidly simple
@@chasepalumbo2929 I hope I did not come across as insulting other fighting games in my post, I was just trying to explain how the style of the newer SFV game is different than past SF games.
To me, classic SFII, SFIII, and Virtua Fighter are probably the deepest games in terms of basic gameplay strategy because of strong, simple defensive options, but indeed many gamers do find these games simple, slow, and boring to play. Offensive rush down or vortex style fighting games are maybe more simple in terms of basic gameplay strategy, but to compensate there is a usually a lot more to learn in those games in terms of applying effective mix up strategies. I think these styles will appeal to different players depending on what aspect that player is looking for in a game.
I felt SFV ended up embracing the high offense mix up style gameplay of these other games, and at the same time lost some of the "chess like" strategies such as defensive zoning that were essential aspects of previous games in the series. Whether you see this as a positive or negative thing probably just depends on what style of game you prefer to play.
Haha Daigo said peepee
I miss that aspect of SF4. You always saw new tech at tournaments. SF5 you kind of can learn everything a character has to offer in like a hour in the training room.
I mean that can be the case with SF3, as the flow of learning is very generous for both new and experienced players. Even with how complex parrying is in gameplay, there's a guide that makes it really easy to understand and put into practice.
SFIV on the other hand, has a massive and complex roster, so you rarely see people pick more than one character with the exception of shoto players. The combos in the training mode are sometimes impractical and/or very awkward for new players, so you need to commit to your character if you want to main them.
It reminds me of MvC2 right now, since people are just finding out new team synergies for a 20 year old game lol.
Sf4 players focus so much on combos, OS and vortex setup that people fundamentals aren’t good so that’s like the main reason sf4 players have a hard time in SFV.
They're carried by OS/combos/vortex setups but not strong basic fundamentals. Also if you think you learn everything in an hr you haven’t really played the game
ストV舐めすぎだろ
スト4みたいなセットプレイだけを技術って言ってんじゃねーよ動画勢がｗ
@@jojobizadTRASH you mention a guide, but you need to realize that the internet wasn't like it is today when sf3 and third strike were the main sf games. People had to learn tech mostly from locals/bigger events and the general tech community didn't really exist back then. I think a big reason that sfv feels so easy to learn in depth is because there's so many more resources out nowadays and finding optimals is just a Google search and a UA-cam video link click away
This is very much exaggerated. 90% of Urien players don't do headbutt loops, and nobody plays Menat because of how demanding she is. Also, stuff like really really perfect precise meaty timing is actually genuinely technically demanding in this game.
the guy that wrote him that message feels like he didnt really learn anything in sf4
Yeah! Well actually he learned something... based on the characters he was maining, he learned vortexes and unblockables so he can avoid neutral, so he doesn't have fundamentals.
@@malcovich_games seems like he's the type that doesnt adapt
@@kumaSOevl talking a lot of shit about a guy who's actively trying to recognize and improve flaws in his gameplay.
@@TheCosmicUpriseIm not shit talking him (first guy that sent a letter). If you break down what he's actually complaining about he literally said he's playing sf5 like he plays sf4. He basically just learn the flowcharts and expects the win. He also stated he doesnt want to lab the MU in SFV but wonder why he loses. If that is shit talking welp I could have just said "git gud"
In my day we called them scrubs
Sf5 is beginner friendly when it comes to execution. Its like sf5 leveled the playing field or made it easier for us casuals.
So it's more SF than SF4. The thing is that there were some minor flaws in that whole approach. It's good that future games don't completely depart from the direction of SF5 but just fix those mistakes.
All SF, except SF I, is casual friendly in terms of execution. Sure V feels like friendlier to casual than previous SF. But once you decided to learn more and gets better, you will realized the game have plenty of layers that definitely not casual friendly. Example characters like Menat, Dan, Oro, Rose, Akira, Urien, Gill, or Zeku are very technical and casuals will have a hard time to use them properly. Even Luke double charge combo requires good timing which i’m sure most casuals players have a hard time pulling out that combo in real match.
@@thepuppetmaster9284 SFV got no layers, lol
The game is easy, throw, shimmy & wait for Vtrigger
@J SHXDX
That’s a scrub quote.
@@jshxdx2886 you don't understand the game. Plus, ratio. Someone makes a great statement and you answer him/her "Lol no."
Throw, shimmy, wait for V trigger? Watch me play Fang and stay at mid range, whiff punish everything with medium punch into Sotoja lol
so it's all about dictator the plus frames character all along. jk
I had a buddy who was able to win in SFIV with ken because of kara cancels and OS, but he couldn't play SFV for shit because you actually need solid fundamentals to do well there. There were so many things you could do in SFIV to bypass actually playing.
You also needed fundamentals to win in sfiv big games even more so than in sfv.
Sfv is also really weird in a sense that you needed really good anticipation of your opponents moves to catch them with CC’s and couple that with the game shipping with awful input lag, it turned away so many people who used to rely on playing on reaction in sfiv.
@@martyr84 It does but the issue is that a lot of average SF4 only focus on the technical and stunting growth in the fundamentals. SF4 players have a rude awakening when they can't be carried by their technical skills only
@@martyr84 at the highest levels of SF4 is where fundies really matter. That's why that game is so hard to play. All through out beginner to intermediate, you are carried by tech and in-game knowledge. Then you hit wall where you need to read and adjust to your opponent, and things like rythm, timing and spacing become extremely important more so than your tech. Very hard for players to adjust to that mentality.
Lmao@implying fundamentals mattered less in sf4. Or that sf5 doesn’t have setplay
@@stolensentience no one is saying sf4 doesn’t need or have fundamentals, we’re talking about the average player in sf4 that rely on OS, vortex, etc that can overcome needing fundamentals to win a match and having issues going over to SFV
It seems weird that SF4 is an "anomaly". To my knowledge, a lot of fighting games (including other street fighters) involve similar amounts of tech for high level play.
It's not a new take. People have been saying that SF4 taught bad fundamentals throughout its entire lifespan.
LOL when dude said El Fuerte, Ibuki, and Laura I was like "oh you can gfy."
A W is a W though.
Gfy?
@@harryvpn1462 I'm guessing "y" stands for "yourself"... in which case, I think your imagination can fill in for the other two letters. 😆
Was anyone reminded like how Gootecks and Mike Ross sunked low on SF5, which was another one of many moments they failed on their Excellent Adventure?
@ハンス I thought of Mike having problems with SF5, but that might’ve been more than that…
i remember tons of complaints about sf4, people have selective memory of that show.
@Fernie Fernandez
Gootecks and Mike main problems isn’t with SF V but with their personal life. Mike hated eSport so much and then Capcom called his show Capcom Pro Talk as a waste of time and cancelled it. That’s why he quits.
After Mike left, Gootecks can’t keep Excellent Adventures alive. He invited JWong, Kbrad, Yipes, etc to filled Mike slot but it was failed because people only want to see Gootecks and Mike playing. That’s why he also quit.
I mean... all the players that won in sf4 are still winning in sf5 lol. Daigo, Tokido, infiltration, bonchan, momochi... I really don't see who's not winning anymore in sf5 that were playing sf4.
if we think the way that Daigo's thinking, guys like the question maker were lab rats and tried to win just by the practice in the lab. all the people you mention (aka pros) do both the lab work and fight other people so I don't think it's the same
Yeah, Punk, Nuckle Du, Nauman, Kawano, etc. are the same age as the SFIV pros 😂
@@jinkazama7587 nuckledu was a monster on sf4. Punk was good as well just not well known back then
PR Balrog and Dieminion come to mind
Those are fighting game gods who didn't even start with SFIV, SFV filtered all the 09er frauds who purely relied on gimmicks like SnakeEyez and Pepeday out
So Daigo doesn't like tekken then
What an interesting take haha. I had always felt a little weirded out about SF4, if I'm being honest. It was never something I could fully get into, which is odd since I tend to be a big fan of fighting games in general. It took too much effort, but not in the same way I might typically enjoy other fighting games. SFV's release was utter garbage, its general artstyle (the stills) is so lazy it's awful, the story mode is terrible, and about a hundred other things that I found ridiculous... but it did have a saving grace.
Gameplay is what saves SFV, and it's the reason I enjoy it to this day. It's not perfect, but there are some timeless qualities to it that make it the superior fighting game to SFIV, in my humble opinion. There are still some mechanics that could potentially "teach you wrong" like SFIV had a tendency to do, but the meat and potatoes lies in building the fundamentals. Picking up the right things in a game like SFV can help you in most other fighting games due to its focus on footsies and the neutral.
Some would argue that V Trigger goes against all that, but honestly, it's a fun little monkey wrench in the usual formula. It keeps you on your toes, and gives everyone a fighting chance. Sure, it rewards you for being on the receiving end but people underestimate just how much the casual demographic keeps a fighting game alive. Anyways, here's to hoping the sixth installment learns from its predecessors.
sf4 had better footsies in neutral than 5 because normals werent stubby and fireballs were good on block
@@koumorichinpo4326 It's not about stubby normals or little technicalities like that. It's about everything as a whole haha. FADC says hello and goodbye to most attempts at a neutral game, and lord help you if it's Zangief haha. The vortex and tech showcase tends to be so oppressive nothing really gets started for the one on the receiving end. Extremely high-level gameplay consists of tech and defense against tech.
See what I mean? The tech is entertaining at the beginning, but gets old fast. In SFV, it's generally a more entertaining fight - with the keyword being a fight.
@@koumorichinpo4326 literally any time I watch 4 gameplay, it's meaty into combo until someone dps and then does the same shit to the other guy
There is no neutral at below pro level
@@koumorichinpo4326 Ah yes, SF4, the title that inspired the satire fighting game, “Divekick”. *Real* footsies is where you have focus, and a third of the characters can make you guess in neutral just by jumping if you don’t have a DP.
*Real* footsies is El Fuerte running around at hyper speed and doing quesadilla bomb or splash, with you being forced to respect that.
*Real* footsies is Elena outranging your pokes with her crouching *jab* and then comboing into a knockdown and getting a free healing off.
Ah yes, those were the good old days of classic SF-style neutral.
@ハンス lmao 🤣
I experience these kinds of 1 braincell players in non traditional fighters, and I can definitely understand where Daigo is going with this. These players have no adaptation skills, they just do the same things over and over and when their strategy gets beaten they just keep doing the same thing, and eventually get frustrated because this 1 braincell strategy has worked so "Why isn't it working now!?".
That's painfully relatable to me
I play Seth, Akuma, bison, necalli, and zangief somehow I still get my ass kicked by an Akira spammer
I mean you can play as many characters as you want, that’s not going to let you beat someone. I feel like the issue is that this “Akira spammer” is probably just outplaying you but you call it spam because you probably don’t understand what he’s doing? Like, what can Akira even spam? Especially when you play a character like Bison who can control the neutral so well and reign in braindead/wild play so easily.
That’s not really the way he’s going.
Daigo calls the person asking the question “hakase-type”. _Hakase_ is a Japanese word that means something along the lines of “professor”. It’s a respectful term for people who have a certain type of technical expertise. Daigo is using it to mean people who approach learning the game by studying small-scope clearly defined interactions and developing their play style by integrating their knowledge of those interactions, but it’s still a respectful term. If he wanted to use an offensive term, he would’ve chosen one.
You on the other hand quite clearly do not respect not only those players and the way they approach the game, but also the very thinking skills they use to approach the game.
The mental gymnastics that sf4 players do to defend the game is incredible rofl
I just went back to sf4 last night and had a blast! You actually have to have top notch skill just to win a round on a good player because there are no vtriggers to hide behind
@@SoulWarriorSF holy shit lmao
the issue is that a lot of average SF4 only focus on the technical and stunting growth in the fundamentals. SF4 players have a rude awakening when they can't be carried by their technical skills only
@@HMNNO No its classic street fighter.The main reason alot of people left the scene when sfv came out was because its not street fighter. It's more of a marvel style
@@SoulWarriorSF majority of people played sf4 only cuz it was popular and had a playerbase. now its a ghost town. and 4 wont have a scene the same way SF2 or 3s does now years later. thats partly because fightcade makes playing ez, but its also cuz 4 is a BOOKWORM's game! lol
Can’t you say the exact same thing about some vtriggers and characters in SFV though? I’m in masters and some people up here are garbage at the game, but they get vtrigger and guess right twice and I still lose. So they practiced a vtrigger setup and got carried by that
They may have beaten you, but they're not going to win consistently without properly executing matchup knowledge though.
Are you implying that that didn't happen all the time in SFIV? Already forgot about Seth, Yun and Akuma?
If you lose to "garbage" then what does that make you?
That is a strong factor at some levels of the game, but not as a rule. They can't rely too much on their VT gimmicks against good level players.
@@Rei-qs6bu Ah yes, the characters that die in 1 hit.
by +2 he means being +2 on block i imagine? So your opponent literally can't do anything because their normals will get beat out, so they have to tech, hold up, or backdash? That was one thing about SF5 that I found annoying from the very beginning, it felt you can't do anything on wake up. So it's more like Oki Fighter 5 Oki edition. Granted, it makes you much better at playing defensively across all fighting games. Sometimes I just hold downback vs non command grab characters and see if I can predict the through.
Vshift was a much needed mechanic even with its flaws. An option is better than hold downback and keep your fingers on the throw button. I really like games with Burst for that, where I spend some resource to say "Alright, I'm sick of guessing can we do something else?" lol.
You can't do anything on wakeup. It is bs. This game is absolute trash. It punishes defensive fighting and rewards scrubby, offensive gameplay. You can literally do random shit and it works. I have played matches where I just abandon all real strategy and just throw out anything - even throw loops work. It's a joke.
@@HumorousLOL yeah... i actually recently did a pass with friends with all the old fighting games in the dreamcast era... those are a lot more fun. MVC2, Cvs2 ,sf3rd strike etc. When I lose in those games I don't want to throw the controller but man, feeling helpless to mashing just feels bad lol.
I actually rather face very high tier players because they dont just mash and it feels like "alright alright alright" when you lose. Yeah i just hate all the really dumb gameplay that'd you'd normally punish across fighting games but in this one it feels like none of them work, or at least consistently. Probably why GGStrive has stayed high in population on steam charts
delay tech
@@somedudethatdoesthings8057not 100% a solution. Try again.
@@bartdude82 ...what?
delay tech beats meaty attacks+grabs. against a point blank +2 move on block, it's pretty strong. it is a tool you can use to mitigate that type of offense. and *of course* it isn't 100%, it gets beat by shimmy, but it will help you defend better overall.
i literally dont understand what's trying to be said.
SF4 was 'Set-up Fighter'. Perfect example: Poongko. His Seth-play 😉was all about 50/50 jump ins, command grabs, teleports n other such shenanigns. Granted, as this video pointed out, you need a hell lot of execution to pull those off. But once you had the execution, you can almost auto-pilot your match ups. And that's why Poongko is NOT among the greatest. Can't win on setups alone. And so many other sf4 pros were exactly like him. ChrisG, possibly the cleanest execution guy outside of Sako. Pulls off Sakura loops without plinking every goddam time. But he is so bad at actual decision making and gets emotional everytime he loses. Pepeday's El Fuerte, outside of his run.stop.fierce routine, what intelligent decision had he made? And this is why SFV matters. Can't rely on execution alone, you need the brains to play and win the game. Infiltration never had impossible combos. But he understands every game. That's why he is able to win multiple Evos on multiple games.
Infiltration does the best combo all the time. He can do fancy things but he goes for max damage or best oki (you know the setup thing for brainless players).
And playing Seth or Sakura does not require a hell lot of execution. Their comfirms and max damage combos are among the easyest in the game.
SFV is weird
@@fablodibongo1150 yeah this guy ain’t really know what he’s talking about lol
Nobody relied on execution alone in sf4. In fact execution didn't overtake everything else in sf4... It just added to your offense. Chris G and Poongko didn't fade into the abyss within sf5 too. Lemme remind you while a vast amount of sf4 players left sf5 because of a distaste for the game arguably the best street fighter 5 players literally copy pasted and easily adapted from 4. It's inevitable that new faces will come with new games that's literally every street fighter ever. To say that Poongko isn't one of the greatest is just undermining his accomplishments within street fighter. Title newcomers have yet to topple past veterans and that shit hasn't changed since daigo was winning sf2t evo tournaments. Old sf4 players can still hang and actually have phenomenal showings. Go look at fgc translateds video where daigo talks on ohnuki for the love of god
The only game where champions and the highest level competitors who were winning did not find success in future titles was third strike and even then Ohnuki is the outlier.
When I was playing fighting games a lot, I would win and virtually rarely touched training mode. I had a friend who would learn frame data and all the specific combos, but I almost always won against him just cause I had a better sense of what to do in a given situation. So yeah, I agree with Daigo's statements.
Sounds like your friend sucks, not that you agree with daigo
Lot of 4 players getting mad lol
Their entire identity is based on hating 5 like it's the antichrist
They hate on 5 but your fault is hating on them.
I don't like 5 too much. But I don't go to each video to hate it. But it's the game I don't want to play. Wish 4 could have ggpo netcode so we could play and have better fun
Now that Diago finally expressed the same criticisms people had of SF4. Can people stop over glorifying it because they dislike SFV??
judging by a decent percentage of the comments here, no.
@ハンス I'm not offended. 4 was a phenomenal game. It brought a lot of attraction to the fighting games
Most of the comment section is people over glorifying SFV because they have mega asshurt about SF4 and its fans for some reason. It goes both ways.
@@Cybrisk So youre one of the SF4 worshippers? Who actually over glorifies SF5? SF6 isnt out yet. What youre saying is kinda CAP sir
@@Chaoskae I like SF4. Am I not allowed to like SF4 just because Daigo said so and people are throwing a fit about it?
Setplay/Vortex characters hurt fighting games even though I love them
Chat: So how do you get +2 situations in SFV?
Daigo: Well you know in the Darkstalkers series and in Alpha 3 you do….
😂
Clearly they should make sf6 for the bookworms since they basically had to give away sf5 to get the sales numbers anywhere close to sf4. People want it to take learning to get good, like chess, Texas Holdem, card games, magic the gathering. People in their 40s still play video games and want to be able to win even when they are old and slow. Make it technical! Make it require a book full of info. It will still be loved by more than sfv.
a lot of butt hurt 09ers any time daigo talks about sf4. and what he says is true. boot up one of the older games and youll see it for yourself. you guys can sit here saying "i cant wait till sf6" but your in for a rude awakening if you think it will ever go back to how it was in sf4.
In SF2X you have the complicated links, you need a great execution and once you are on the ground you are dead because of okizeme setups with OSs.
and you also have some zoning matchups.
that looks a bit like sf4 I think. So maybe Daigo is wrong.
@@fablodibongo1150 Throws also did like 40% and there was random stun. Also Claw existed. ST is still one of my favorite games to scrub people out in. Everyone acts like they've been playing since the 90s, then I just pick Claw, and do some braindead WD to FBA shenanigans, and spam walk in walk out c.strong to close it out, call it 'footsies', and go for the handshake.
@@fablodibongo1150 no, it is nothing like sf4. super turbo wasnt loaded with passive defense. there was no giant reversal window, there was no dragon punch short cuts that allowed you to mash(great execution, lol), there was no inv back dash, no fadc back dash, you didnt get meter from getting hit, you didnt have ultras and there was no crouch teching(you cant even tech in st, you just land on your feet for lower dmg). o and before i forget. you actually do dmg in super turbo. if i land a cross up rh with bison i can end the round.
the one time i brought sf4 players into hdr it was a total disaster(they bought the game before 4 came out). it only lasted 10 mins but it showed me the truth. without all that bullshit they werent any good. sf4 didnt give them any fundamentals which is way they struggle in 5 and will continue to struggle in 6 unless they let go of that mind set.
@@ScriptZac 09ers couldnt comprehend super turbo vega. just get yodeled to death.
SFV is not fun for defensive players. You’re basically forced to play in a way that is unfun. So many moves are plus on block it’s ridiculous. It feels like a knock-off anime fighter.
This is why FANG is so weak; no +2
Usually, pro players talk better about SF4, especially the japanese, than about SF5, when both are compared. Daigo seems to be the exception. He also say u could be a sucessful winner in SF4 and don't be in SF5. I think, except Daigo himself, all the top japanese players (Momochi, Tokido, Bonchan, Fuudo) and Infiltration reached a similar top positions in SF5 as they did in SF4. Another curious thing, Daigo also said he didn't like SF3 and SF4 - wich makes him an exception again.
I'm fan of Daigo since SF2 era, but i have to admit: he's analysis and way thinking are very particular - even questionable, sometimes.
Yeah i still don't really understand his logic sometimes. He said that he didn't like the defensive nature of Sf4 and he'd rather not play a fighting game that way but turns around and picks Guile in Sf5 and excels with him lol
thing about Daigo is that he thinks games should be built around a strong reward for the attacker in pressure scenarios, which is why he notoriously dislikes 3 and 4, which had things like universal parry and invincible backdashes
also it seems to me that Daigo doesn't play Guile too defensively either, he prefers to leverage his booms as a tool to force the enemy to act
He just is too experienced, skilled and accomplished to have fgc hive mind ideas. Simple.
@@carlosaugusto9821 nah he says some cap shit sometimes
@@scrawled_inblack9882 He like playing defensively and like playing aganst the game essence (in this vid). So he like to play defensively in offensive games.
And sf4 fans think they were good and blamed sfv when they got exposed . Thats why they hate sfv and run back to sf4 lol
this comment makes me laugh. i remember during sf4 i had some of them play hd remix and got the exact same result. cant crouch tech, and back dash, no short cut dp, no ultra. 15 mins and they were ready to go back to 4.
I actually did better in sf5 than sf4 lol. Does that mean I play brain-dead?
Completely opposite
Yes..and SFV easier
No. But sf4 is not bad game if you imply something among these lines.
And also you gain more experience with time
SF4 was not an anomaly amongst 2d fighting games. It was just the first time every player in the world had the ressources for understanding how the game works.
training in Vampire Savior does not give you an advantage? KoF? and in SF4 a Ryu vs Fei Long is realy about combos and setups?
The guy didn't play Ryu or Fei Long, he played Fuerte, Ibuki, and Dudley. Daigo didn't say training didn't give you an advantage in old games. All he's saying is that SF4 had characters with training mode focused strategies that were anomalously strong. The ubiquity of super long hard knockdowns in that game had a huge impact on the way it was played. Grapplers, strange SF4-style gimmicky chars like Fuerte or Abel, characters with strong mix-up set-ups like Akuma, they all played a particular way in SF4 that was specific to that game.
Daigo means that in SF1V, it was easy to simply build a knowledge base of how the game's systems and tools work to overwhelm opponents. You could throw your stuff at the opponent and vortex them without having to ever play a strong mental game, until you hit a certain level of skill. The other game like this that comes to mind is Super Smash bros. melee, where learning how to do most of the strong, fast stuff on your character let you simply overwhelm opponents in a similar way.
He says that SFV is more like other fighters in that the mental game becomes more prevalent much more quickly, and that it's harder to simply learn a few things to overwhelm people.
@@BorderlandSkylights yeah you’re right. What’s weird tho is that literally every prior fighter had tons of setplay, setups, glitches, depth, weird situations, and even vortex stuff in sf2. Or let’s not forget the infinite depth of sf3 and parries. Or as if darkstalkers didn’t have wild setups and execution. Not sure how well this was translated or how much daigo has to walk on eggshells when talking about sfv
I don't think sf4 was about adjustments much.. which is very unlike a fighting game
@@stolensentience The largest difference is ease of access to win conditions. SF2 in particular was very obvious about strike-throw and what characters had to do to get there, so anyone who made an effort to understand could see it, and start accessing the mental game quickly. Everyone has similar responses to throwing in later iterations, so it became moreso about how your character interacted with those systems.
Other games tend to place all over on the spectrum, but Sf4 was definitely at the far end of character and Match-up specifics.
Daigo spilling hard to swallow truths. I hope people like Sanford Kelly sees this video and cry about it 🤣🤣
Sanford Kelly? You realize he's a literal evo champion right?
SF5 is so boring it killed the community. There isn't even enough people to react and cry about it these days.
@@teppler that is objectively false, a lot of people are talking about sfv and half the hype about 6 is built on v
Truths? Lol more like contradictions
Interesting answer. However I feel Daigo contradicted himself a bit. A lot of these FGC Translated videos are of Daigo labbing. He puts in a lot of lab time into the game the same way he described SF4 players did. A good example is his anti corner aegis technique.
He’s labbing more character situations in SFV… in SF4 he talking about the general situations you can get by understanding the core mechanics and setups you can do.
Daigo doesn't lab combos/unblockables/OSs in SF5 like what was optimal in SF4. He labs matchups and specific interactions.
@@malcovich_games totally doesn't lab combos
ua-cam.com/video/oerV6zxEWCM/v-deo.html
I think that what he is saying is that these people ONLY lab, that doesnt mean he doesnt lab or that labing is bad, it just that you get more out of labing from IV than what you get out of V
Daigo isn't talking about pros. The pros do mostly everything well. He's talking about players below that level who relied on labbing.
1:01 - He revealed his problem: he was too lazy to lab his matchups. Option selects, vortex setups, invincible backdash, and mindless 1F link grinding carried SF4 players hard.
People spent more time grinding 1F links and trying to abuse FADC and the vortex than learning how to play fundies
Carried by skills lmao
1f link carried lmfao
Yeah "carried" by all those fighting game techniques 😂😂 how dare they study match ups and practice combos 😤
@@scrawled_inblack9882 that's the thing, they didn't practice the matchup
sfiv was a game that had tech that was so powerful it can replace fundamentals - why practice spacing, conditioning, resource management and more nuanced matchup knowledge when you can go for a 4-way mix/unblockable/anti-crouch tech OS setup on every back throw that you get? That was why the mindset of being more specific than general dominated the SF4 scene, and tech monsters flourished
while in sfv a lot of the game is decided more by proper game sense and responding to your opponent's behavior, because tech in general has been streamlined, so you can't let your tech carry you anymore and you have to start learning fundies
note that no playstyle is better than the other - I completely disagree with Daigo's opinion that being a lab monster is a "wrong" way to play fighting games, FGs are diverse and that's what makes them fun, but it is true that SFV and SFIV are very different beasts, and you need to approach both games with a very different mindset
The biggest flaw of SF4 was having way too much focus on Set Play and Option Selects at high level, to the point were once you get past the execution barrier you can basically autopilot most matchups, resulting in having less player expression and a static meta. Maximilian Dood said the same thing Daigo said about SF4.
Current SF5 (Champion Edition, not the earlier versions lol) actually has more player expression and a more dynamic metagame than SF4 ever did (but still less than some games from the 90s). SF5 has easier execution than SF4, but it also has a greater emphasis on fighting game fundamentals and less autopilot short cuts than SF4.
Both are good games overall, but neither are truly the deepest SF game.
sf4 rose-tinted fan here, can someone tell me please what is true SF? In every sfX vs sfZ debate i see that argument. So what is considered a true essential street fighter? I remember sf3 was not a true SF also, so what we have here is SF2ST and maybe sf Alfa series? Two games everyone is leveling and comparing with all new sf games? I personally dislike sf2 and don't like much sf alfa, why should anyone even care if the game is true SF {sf2/alfa} or not? Is it even an argument?
thanx in advance
On thw internet, everything is an argument everyone with a different opinion is wrong.
I think to be honest the best way I can explain what true SF is. SF= pressure. The player who applies pressure consistently is the winner.
So at heart SF is an offensive game. But SF works best when it's close to being barebones -hence- > Street Fighter 2 is regarded as the golden age of SF.
All the SFs following it always has a bunch of extra meters, tech, block cancels, or things like parry so at that point it's more on the "crazy Capcom fighters" side of things. Alpha, 4, 5, or 6 isn't really SF it's baby darkstalkers/baby marvel.
3 is close but parry kind of reduces the simplistic war of footsies and simple 1-2 methods of pressure based gameplay is what made SF2 somewhat an indepth fighting game. Hell, you can even say having a super meter made it not Street Fighter no more because supers changes how matches are conducted.
Once again all opinions but that's what me-thinks
what i like about iv is that any character can win the tournament
Hakan is crying in the corner all oiled up in fetal position
Sfv is the same too 😁😁 both are good
No way bro SFIV was way more top tier dominated than SFV at almost every point of it's competitive life. See: Yun, Elena.
Fang is one of the weakest characters in SFV and won CEO a few months ago
@@Rei-qs6bu FANG definitely not that low. Of all the low tier char, he is the strongest. And didn't Gen is the same thing? Unless you're Xian, Gen is low tier because you can't use him effectively. Even if you're Xian, Gen is mid tier at best. And he did won CEO too. So
Cause the build-in lag, asia have the best internet in the world so asians have no online's lag so Japaneses get the worst shock with SFV, americans have it easier as their internet is shit.
Exclude SEA on that one
This is myth that get's more and more overblown over time. Lag exists in Asia just like anywhere else. A signal still has to travel a certain distance, it's not instant.
America has highly variable internet quality across comparitively larger distances, so issues can certainly be magnified there.
But network latency is a fundamental truth when sending signals anywhere. Asia isn't somehow immune to that, even with excellent internet. Bandwidth/speed is not the same as latency or "lag".
The distances between population centers tend to be smaller in Asia than in the US, so you're more likely to get connected to a player physically closer to you than would happen in the US.
@@udderhippo
Obviously I'm not talking literally about the lag, I'm talking about how in asia lag is not a treat for gaming experience.
Exist videos where PROS like Daigo, Momochi, Infiltration say they can't handle SFV's lag and how they must relearn to play street fighter with lag.
in SFIV age japanese players say online's players play differently in japan than america and I bet the lag is the reason.
No, Japan typically got games and especially Street Fighter, a Full year before people in the west really go to play it.
He trashed sfiv. I’m heartbroken.
@ハンス weird. Those older players played leaps and bounds better in sfiv than in sfv.
@ハンス hes explained why he didnt like it before and i agree with him. passive defensive made it a slog.
@@martyr84 A lot of older players play just as well in SFV too. A lot are old schoolers too that played more then just SF4 especially in JP.
@ハンス can you list from the top of the head?
@ハンス the outlier is sfv and not sfiv
Remember that every daigo take is backed by his actually correct take of "pros kept sfv alive despite capcom", of course he's going to champion sfv
Go back to hating a game you haven't played in 5 years and loving a game you haven't played in 10
simple answer: failure to adapt.
I still can't get away from Third Strike, can someone compare SF5 to it please?
Am i wathing an anime?
Daigo is a pro at what he does, and I fully respect him as a player, but I FULLY disagree here. Capcom even admitted V allows casuals to keep up with pros. It is 100% true. I can destroy in almost any street fighter. V is the first game where some random scrub can best me using trash tactics. VI was an anomaly, yet I was good at that game too, as well as Thrid Strike and every other SF before it. If anything V is the anomaly here, and one of the worst SF games ever made. Can't wait till it dies.
So, uh, you enjoying 6 lol
So in translation “how do I scrub out the higher level players w/o having to exert effort” lmaoo
Use whatever broken character is the in the current version before their advantages are patched out?
I found SFV easier than SF4. Was better at part 5 than part 4. But I found SFV slow paced, dumbed down, not as fun and didn't enjoy the v trigger mechanic. I guess I just prefer rush down play. SFV feels like a chess match at times
Street Fighter 5 is way better than Street Fighter 4. Before you bite my head off here's my answer. Street Fighter 4 back in the day was difficult to play because of the combo. Of course Diego and those so-called Pros are going to practice it all of the time. Because they want that prize money. People have jobs and a life LoL. They're certainly going to look like God's cuz they play it everyday. But on the other hand Street Fighter 5. Now that was genius. In Street Fighter 5 if you made a mistake that was on you. So don't complain if you make a mistake in the game that's on you. Street Fighter 4 if you had the time to practices you were good. Street Fighter 5 was honest. That was on you.
Dude you complain is just because are combos IN SF Iv are "hard" and you dont have time to learn it? XDDDDDDDDD
@@BestAnimeFights32 Street Fighter 4 was a great game. But Street Fighter 5 was honest. If you made a mistake that was on you.
Meanwhile Stack Bradford :
1) Techniques
2) Executions
3) Awareness
And awareness part is the definitive reason setting players' skill level apart
Wow, this random oldman is very knowledgeable about fighting game
Lmao. You're trolling for calling him a random oldman.
@@patientcix7810 he's old that's for sure
So why training for mixups, combos and such is a bad thing for a fighting game ? I find the first answer a little condescending to be honest
Being good with fuerte teaches you a very narrow minigame that most opponents dont understand. So you domt necessarily learn the general skills for other chars and games.
Should of never killed of 4 should of kept adding new things
We've have 7 years worth of fadcs and 1fr links.. the graphics and the wonky animations were not aging well. Everybody was bored by the ultra edition.
@@bena5150 nah
@@bena5150 nah, still watchable and playable game. Same with third strike.
SfIV was a boring defensive slog at the end.
It single handily bought back the fighting genre lol...whereas SFV tanked shows like Excellent adventures...hence Ono getting fired for SF6
@@theluminary5324 sfIV was a bore. Wasn't much out there at the time it came out
@@CT-gh2vm It brought back the fighting genre and packed crowds and EVO...not to mention Gootecks SF4 content show...so I beg to differ...
@@CT-gh2vm There still isn't and the consensus is that SFV sucks...Which is why no one wants Ono back for SF6..
@@theluminary5324 SFV is fine. SF6 should be interesting
Dark stalkers is a better name than vampire hunters
most sf games were the same up to sf4. it's funny because daigo says you could learn a combo and win in sf4 but that is the story of sf5. I see players have one or two go to combos and that's it. makes me wonder how the hell they got to any rank after silver. sf5 is made for beginners, even in sf4 you could see the pros pull off INSANE combos and yet in sf5 it doesn't matter as anyone can do them.
I like to see them silver players pull out Urien headbutt loop, Menat vt1 orb combo, Oro stones combo. There are easy combo and hard combo characters. Some rely on 17f 1 hit confirm, counter confirm which im sure those silver players cant do.
What i think he meant is that in 4 you can do your own things, your own combo, your setup, your OSes. Kinda auto pilot (up to a certain rank of course). But in 5, you have to play with the opponent, play the match up, situation.
poor first guy... Daigo just basically rips him apart for the whole section lmao ... "you suck and you're trash, that's why you can't play fighting games"
Nah, he just told him "Your idea of playing FG might be wrong, why don't you try another way?" It's a good advice. A really nice guy Daigo!
"you're not cut out for this" =/= "you're trash"
the first one is an honest assessment, the later is an insult. know the difference.
My humble question to diago why he don't play tekken 7 which most balance game compare to other fighting games
Tekken ain't his game, simple as that.
@@klombernzx I don't know about it .but tekken is far better than 2d games
Accountability shouldn't fall on the players for their decisions in SF4. The game encouraged vortex play. Why focus on fundamentals when it's super clear there was a meta for most characters.
Every Abel played the same-- same goes for Dudley, Ibuki, Seth and many others. When you create characters a certain way, players will play said characters a certain, ideal way.
This is one reason I've always gravitated to Tekken. More than one way to effectively play a character, compared to SF's character X vs character Y matchup meta.
There's more player expression in 90s SF than in Modern Tekken.
@@lukejones7164 Feel free to elaborate. SF2 started that character matchup model, where there's a single best way for 1 character to deal with another. Guile vs Sagat looks exactly the same in every single game. Zoner vs grappler also looks exactly the same in every single game-- let the grappler get in close and you are basically dead. That also goes for vortex-heavy characters-- get knocked down and guess right, or die fast.
SF5 had throw loops that everyone took advantage of until throws got nerfed. If there's a meta, players will find a way. I wouldn't blame them for playing to win.
Tekken has characters that are best suited for offensive, defensive, tricky tricky or balanced play, yes, but there's no single way to deal with them because solid fundamentals like punishment and frame data would carry you much further.
the thing is that fundamentals do exist in 2D fighting games: spacing, whiff punishing, conditioning, knowing how to navigate through your opponent's hitboxes, and knowing how to stop your opponent's approach are all skills that translate from one game to another.
Just because there was an ideal/meta way to play characters, doesn't automatically mean that every player of that character is equally good. That's where the most beautiful interactions happen in 2D fighting games I think.
It is true that Tekken's design allows for characters to have diverse gameplans that individual players can specialize in, however, that I concede.
@@dressigvil I agree with your points and I see them all the time in high level play. The neutral game fascinates me most because that's where most of the critical thinking really manifests itself IMO. Long combos are also fun, but that's most fighting games today.
Character X vs Character Y is just an SF thing and doesn't make the game good or bad, I just believe that players will always figure out the meta and then it's up to devs to either change it in a way they want it to go, or keep it the same. We shouldn't blame players for wanting to win, essentially.
Daigo is wrong, all games irrespective of genre/type require a certain amount of learning for you to improve and guess what it's called training. Calling SF4 an anomaly is not the answer it's a contradiction.
I am sure you can beat Diago easily
Daigo is right. In sf4 you can learn one combo and do 60-70 percent damage from one combo and keep winning from that. No other fighting game will let you do that and you are forced to adapt.
@@kieragard God you people don't know what you're talking about. The issue people have with SFIV is not even the combos, it's the setplay and the options that lead to combos. Show me one 60%+ SFIV combo that can be done without an obscene amount of resources which you need to play the game to get to.
The game you're describing right now is Guilty Gear Strive.
@@Cybrisk ss4 has that problem and most people just hold onto their resources for that 60 percent reversal. Strive has it's own issues where damage is way too high, but strive is just a lot more complex and has a lot more combo routes to get that damage. Daigo, who is around forever, used the same Ryu combo and consistently get to placing to 8. Shoryuu into fireball super. One combo can get you far in ss4 and was the only game like that.
@@kieragard maybe learn about fighting game strategy before you speak. Clearly you are just looking at the tip, not considering the mass beneath the surface.
This is backwards. SF5 is the anomaly, rewarding bad defense with robbery mechanics and punishing good defense with gray damage.
Because SFV was design to break Daigo’s strong hold on street fighter and open up the playing field for others. This is the first version of SF where a defensively Sound player will get hammered for being too good at blocking. More manufactured Star players more sponsors more exposure more money. The Street fighter cup is a mixed bag now. The street fighter community been playing dumb to this the last 5 years. Like out of nowhere Street Fighter’s flagship character is garbage for 4 whole seasons…. Who just so happen to be Daigo’s main. Yeah aight
This is a dumb take. Daigo had fell off the map towards the end of Street fighter IV's life. Before Street fighter V came out it had been 5 years since Daigo made top 3 at EVO. It has been over a decade since he got a top 3 finish at EVO for a modern Street fighter Title.
@@donnydarkoh6411 Whateva You Say Guy.
Wouldn't say SFIV was an anomaly. It was a game that respected you. And players loved that.
SFV is working in a bad company where your boss is tormenting you, and you find reasons to stay at work every day. It might help you to survive your days, but keeps killing your inner self.
It was an anomaly. The SF series have never been a very technical series. It was much more fundamentally focused
@@HMNNO Well, if anomaly means being good, then gimme more.
@@darksiders2002 I'm not saying it's bad just saying it's not really standard for SF is all
@@HMNNO Maybe it should be.
@@darksiders2002 hard pass.
Daigo just mad he fell off hard during SF4's lifetime. In the first year he was dominating everyone and by the end he wasn't really one of the strongest players anymore.
Daigo got 2nd place at the last ever Capcom Cup for SF4.
That's not "falling off".
@@Emezie Take a look at his evo placements over the years.
@@teppler and where are your evo placements oh wait, nothing because youre a nobody
@@beiwubsnsod7378 Why didn't Daigo just do some more bookworming and keep his 1st place status if sf4 was about that? How did he fall behind?
Because SFV takes less skill, they lowered the skill gap. So a bad player can get lucky and beat you.
Easy Combos, dumb down neutral, V trigger, bad game, 😂
There's always skill in solid fundamentals. That's why some SF4 players have a difficult time getting into SFV because they only focus on execution to carry them
@@HMNNO someone getting V trigger, then you guessing wrong ain’t skill.
Getting lucky crush counters in neutral ain’t skill.
Easy ABC combos ain’t skill
@@jshxdx2886 lol speaking from someone that can't do solid fundamentals hold that L
@@HMNNO what L, are u even Ultra Diamond, lol?
What are u some platinum talking, or did u just get Diamond.
“I Gud I gaaaat Diiiamon” 😆
@@HMNNO that cannot be true to the full extent
SFV is a shit game that's why
SFIV >>>>>>>> SFV
USFIV is very prone to yolo mashing. SF5 is more for careful play and mindgame. In SF4 victories could be obtained much cheaper
In short, SF4 was fun, SF5 is trash!
SFV > SF4 IMO.....
Hell no
What u smoking?
@@jshxdx2886
JUST MY OPINION.....
@ハンス
RIGHT.
LIKE MR. J SHXDX.....
@@DarkSyntax there’s in no world SFV is better than SF4 and definitely not 3rd Strike.
Maybe the Alpha series.
Sorry but in this topic u got no OPINION
@@jshxdx2886
SO TRIGGERED......AGAIN JUST AN OPINION. NOT TRYING TO ARGUE WITH YOU OVER IT. IF YOU DON'T WANT TO ADAPT, CONTINUE TO PLAY SF4. IF YOUR HAPPY, I'M HAPPY FOR YOU 👍🏼
Street Fighter V is trash.
It is crazy that someone as talented as Daigo can say so many insanely weird/wrong things constantly
Just say you suck at SF5 and can't adapt