Do you feel there is any difference, in terms of the better player winning more consistently, between FT3/FT2 round/game sets and FT2/FT3 sets? I was watching Tekken, which tends to be FT3/FT2, and was curious about the competitive difference, if there is any in your opinion.
@@lt_johnmcclane I agree it's not a big deal, but the timing of it is why people clung to it like this. Whether he was or not he looked salty and people latch on to that.
Edit: According to some other people, it the word Daigo and his chat uses could generally have the same implication as what the English-speaking FGC consider "scrubby." -------------------------------------------------- In Japanese he's saying "ooaji" 大味 which is more like "dull" or "uninteresting," definitely less incendiary than "scrubby." I guess this goes back to how Drive Rush is such a core mechanic, it could be seen as dominating the game so much that it's overused and making the game repetitive, but Daigo's stance in general is to roll with it, and instead to look at a consistent format like FT3/FTx.
I figured there was a more accurate translation than "scrubby", thanks. I think the problem with Mena's post is using that word + twitter character limitations. Much easier to get your point across with spoken word and longer format without getting people riled up.
Mena definitely didn't mean "dull" or "uninteresting", he meant exactly how it sounded in order to blame his loss on the game instead of reflecting inward
There's a reason why Daigo hasn't been attending tournaments recently and instead focused on setting up his own tournaments and events like kemonomichi, he saw the problems that usual tournament formats have and instead does his own FT10s that display skill better. He's doing what he's preaching, that's cool.
Super turbo also has Mao who organizes ft10s and other tournaments for the folks still playing st. I’ve said I wish we had longer formats like what chess does. Round robin or swiss with ft10 against each opponent spread out over days or weeks to completion. It would be a true world champion title
That's like, not at all what he said ? You are putting word in his mouth. It's more likely for the same reason he is not part of them is the same reason he wasn't in SFL. 1. he wants to grind against more various players 2. Feels like he can do more for the game and community by doing his own thing (eg: CR cup that had HUUUUUUGE viewing) WHat you make him say is not even reading between the lines, it's just not there.
@@nekogami87 Read your point no.2, is he taking part and organising events that are not following usual tournament formats? He also took part in the alpha 3 kemonomichi FT10. He is taking part in these events that follow exactly what he preached, instead of spending time on the usual formats, he is doing exactly as what he believes are good for the FGC.
@@GuyWithAnAmazingHat I am not saying he is not, what I am saying is that's not the reason he didn't participate in other events / capcom's official stuff. which is what you said with "There's a reason why Daigo hasn't been attending tournaments recently" and that's what I was calling out. That's correlation, not causality, if that's how you decide to interpret what he is doing fine, but don't present it like that's the cause.
So Daigo was asked if SF6 is 大味 (o-aji), which is a way of saying that something lacks nuance (originally used to describe food taste). I think it's a good translation for scrubby in this context, in that there's more variability that might give a lesser skilled player a win in a short set.
Yeah it seems like this is a better translation, it doesn’t seem like daigo thinks the game is boring or dull, but that maybe high level gameplay is becoming samey due to reliance on upsets with drive rush into high damage combos.
This term is frequently used to describe games, as well, usually in that the game is going for flashy, attractive to casuals, buzzword-y stuff rather than core gameplay depth. In the context of fighting games, it is probably the closest approximation as there isn't really an 1 to 1 equivalent for "scrubby" when describing the game itself. You'll actually see this word frequently used to describe the trends among modern fighting games like SF6, GGST, MBTL, etc. with simplifications and easy-to-use, but powerful, polarizing systems. It's a softer term than "scrubby" though, in that it's not so aggressively attacking a subset of players in the same breath.
Can someone provide a precise definition of "scrubby"? I understand that "scrub" is a term used derogatorily for beginners, but what does it imply when describing a game as "scrubby"? My best guess is something like "a game in which such beginners have an unfair advantage over experts".
@@user-wy7mc6km7vmy understanding is that it has strong mechanics that require minimal skill to get good at or abuse. I could be wrong though, also just noticed you commented like a minute ago, lol was a coincidence I saw it at the same time.
@@user-wy7mc6km7v scrubby is derogatory but in the context Mena was using it he just meant it’s random/chaotic. Usually when players use this term they’re trying to say there’s no method to the madness
@@user-wy7mc6km7v yeah, I feel like it describes a character or FGs which is too easy to play and can just throw random stuff and it'll work and doesn't have to worry about getting punished hard. Basically, the top tier characters with low skill ceiling or maybe I'm wrong.😅
I'd love longer sets for lots of games. The last big Strive event at EVO Japan was something of a blowout in the top 8 in terms of how fast Mochi burned through the competition
Smash ultimate has had tournaments with thousands of players doing fto2 for years. Each set takes considerably longer than even a ft3 in sf6 (worst case scenario around 30 minutes per set ). It then increases to ft3 for top 8. It's definitely doable in sf6 to have everything up to top 8 be fto3 and then fto5 in top 8.
As someone who’s first “serious” fighting game was dragon ball fighterz, SF6’s matches are INCREDIBLY short lol. There’s a reason the default timer in fighterz is 5 minutes. In this tournaments they consistently do ft3 unless the pool of players is too big then they’ll do ft2 for general pools and ft3 for top 8. SF6 not being ft3 already is really mind boggling to me because there is PLENTY of time to do it. I don’t think I’ve EVER had a game be decided by time and the timer is only 90 seconds, they should easily be able to increase it without tournaments becoming unnecessarily long. Other fighting games already do this and their individual matches are MUCH longer lol.
Broke: Oh, so when I do a DP in neutral, it’s random, but when Daigo does it, it’s a read? Woke: Oh, so when I disparage SF6, I’m salty, but when Daigo does it, it’s insightful?
I've only ever heard people call things scrubby when they're seething. I'm sure most people feel the same. So my brain kind of just naturally goes "oh you're just mad." When I hear those words whether there is a good reason for them or not.
Anyone can hate game design, Diago for an example has one of the greatest SF3 moment of all time, guess what? He has been on record saying SF3 is the worst SF of all and had the worst game design of all SF he has played. Just because pro players don't like some game mechanic doesn't mean they suck at the game.
To add to your argument. Mena may be the most decorated young player in 5 and already took the best tournament by far in 6. If anyone opinions matter, it's his.
@@WhentheBehelitScreamsyour opinion is hella flawed. Mena ain’t been in the game as long as daigo or have daigos accolades to make a claim like that bruh. Compared to sf4 and sf3, sf5 is baby food .
@@SoulInajar 100% agreed. I hated SF5, I played SF3 the most, and SF4 was my favorite. The point I was making is Mena is winning and still called it scrubby. You won't get a more honest scenario. I had no flaws, just pointing out that because of Mena's early success in 6, it makes his "opinion" more valid. If a person who was out here losing consistently said the game was scrubby, it would feel salty and spiteful. Context clues are important. You gotta understand before you respond.
Does Daigo actually outright hate/dislike 3rd Strike though or is it hyperbolized because iirc at most he just thinks the mechanics are skewed towards defense than offense and nothing more
It probably doesn't help that sf6 is still so early in its lifespan, a lot of the scrubbier tactics are going to be more effective simply because people dont know how to play around them perfectly yet
Drive rush as its current form is will always be scrubby along with having to use drive rush cancels in order to to confirm cause most buttons have intentionally small cancel windows so DI isnt completely useless at high level, making single hit confirms into specials virtually impossible.(confirms, not just doing and accepting them hitting on block if you guess wrong and hitting if you guess right). Things like that will always make SF6 a scrubby game and honestly a lot worse competitively than SFV post season 4 when the game actually got competitively super solid and till this day most the FGC doesnt give credit for it. To have to go from that, then have to go to SF6 in its current state just feels competitively like such a giant downgrade. SF6 might definitely get to a point where its a far better game than SFV during the latter half of its life, but its really far from that point right now and i feel like hpw tied in the overall system is to the dumbest part of its mechanics makes it very VERY hard to fix a lot of the issues of the game. Youd have to change a lot of things, change how the corner works, change all characters overall frame data and give them more plus on block buttons, change drive meter usage of moves, chance change recovery, cancel windows, durations, add more and less damage scaling, change timings . It would be such a giant overall of the game, it would make it almost a completely different game. Which is possible for sure but not something that would happen over the course of one balance patch, and would cause a couple of patches that felt even worse than it did now till the game finally got better, with a ton of the player base dropping off from dissatisfaction. It would realistically be better accepted as a Super Street Fighter 6 or Street Fighter 6: Second Impact or something as a major overall of the game and rework. What im saying is expect the current state of the game to overall be like this and more people turning on it for its scrubby nature over the course of the next 2-3 years. At that point im not even sure its worth rather than to just start over with SF7 4 years later and just accept this is the game for what it is and some people are gonna like it for how it is, some people are gonna absolutely loathe it and eventually move on. Right now im definitely feeling in the later camp
@@Angel7black as someone who really liked sfv, competitively speaking i'm not sure if that game is much better. for some reason nobody wants to talk about 16-17f dashes being scrubby when they talk about drive rush, they cost no meter, and don't have a bright flash of green to signal they're dashing and have less frames to react than drive rush. then there is the recovery on normals in 5, most whiff punishing is "wish punishing", sticking out mediums or lights buffered at spots where you think your opponent might whiff, if the button you're trying to whiff punish even has a hurtbox. in 6 we have the punish counter mechanic, on top of the recovery being much higher in general for normals, to incentivise intentional whiff punishing, which doesn't sound scrubby to me at all. then there's v-trigger, you can argue all you want about how there're ways to minimize the impact of v-trigger, and i'd probably agree with a lot of them, but to it's core that mechanic is scrubby af, period. then there're the EX moves like zonk punch, dash punch and a few others I can't remember rn.and I find it funny how you prefer most buttons being plus in sf5, to the high/low and throw meta of sf6, high/lows being somthing you can react to, stagger pressure being something you guess on, and throws giving less reward aswell as throw escapes granting more space.
I'll say it again. Twitter is a good place to start a conversation, but it's a terrible place to have a conversation. Or whatever Mr. Can't Build A Train calls it now.
It all went downhill after Street Fighter 4. Capcom completely changed the "normal" SF formula with 5 and now 6. Moves that were always punishable were now all of a sudden completely safe or even plus. Wake up became a game of throw/meaty/shimmy roulette. Neutral was almost entirely neutered with short, stubby normals. It wasn't about skill anymore, it was about bringing in noobs and scrubs and leveling the playing field and selling out to E-sports. Now with 6 they add even more scrub friendly elements with the Drive mechanics. Sad what they've done to the franchise.
I think Mena's definitely salty when he posted that. When you're pretty much the best around and randoms tell you that you're wrong, I'd be pissed too. Personally I think the game's fine as it is though I don't deny I've definitely won my fair share of matches using cheesy tactics which I do consider pretty "scrubby" in that sense.
@@Fralorgrafonnah it just means it was a smart play if they thought about it, a scrub is a mentality, it is someone who uses moves in panick and at random to make sure to not get punished, its essentialy a playstyle for players who do not want to learn the game.
I think Sajam highlighted what was happening. People most focused on the scrubby part because it has been going on since sf2 that people call the newest game scrubby and the previous game "a gentlemen's game" because of rose-tinted glasses. Mena also didn't mention what specifically he did not like in that tweet.
@@Agent_A_Graham dude, you could wakeup dp into 60% life in SF4, not to mention literal unblockable setups for most of its lifespan and the insane divekick pressure some characters had, c'mon
It'd also just a phenomenon happening with fighting games at this point in time. They are becoming more popular and developers are making games for lack of a better term more "scrubby" to appeal to casuals. It's simply a business tactics that sacrifices gameplay and enjoyment at the very top. Sucks but it's just true, it's not rose tinted glasses. It's true with Guilt Gear and it's true with SF
@@Agent_A_Graham I didn't even mention that FADC was plus for a good chunk of the game's lifespan, you can use whatever tactic you want but take off them rose-tinted glasses
@@Agent_A_GrahamA lot of those unblockable setups can be drive parried easily with only a little risk of throwing because they’re already trying to frame trap the hell out of you.
It's been a while, but the SFV ladder-based online tournament from an old video had a really interesting format, i liked watching the ladder shift around until the top 8 finishes in a traditional tournament bracket. And as for scrubby, it really does suck when the opponent beats you in a way that "shouldn't have" worked. But i think that it happens to each street fighter game, to new editions, to new balance patches. Street fighter four got the simplified shoryuken motion, which is most definitely catering to new players, and yet competitively four still saw some of the most skilled players in the world dominate.
I think now is the right time to start exploring how to best implement Swiss tournament structures in street fighter tournaments. Magic: The Gathering has a relatively decent history of running tournaments with this structure, but there's actually a reason why I think it works super well for SF6. In MTG, the bigger a tournament gets, the more Swiss rounds need to be played. Matches can go for 30+ minutes, and some tournaments can have 12+ rounds of Swiss. But in SF6, a match is finished much faster. That means you can actually run more matches in a SF6 Swiss, and the more matches you can run in a Swiss, the more "well-defined" the top bracket of the tournament can become. Another factor to take into account: in MTG tournaments, it's common for people to drop out of a tournament during the Swiss if they start off doing poorly. "0-2 drop" is a phrase in that game for a reason. So you don't necessarily lose out on the ability to trim poorly performing players from Swiss rounds, as players will determine if continuing to play is worth their time. Additionally, it's standard for Swiss rounds to be have win-rate pairing. So you'll prioritize matching up someone who's 6-1 with someone else who's 6-1, with 7-0/5-2 players being used as top/bottom bracket buffers to fill in matches as needed (in that example). This means even low skill players who are 5-6 can still get in some practice time against other 5-6 players, without risking "giving a random loss" to a top performing 10-1 player. From there, it's a matter of deciding: what constitutes a match win in Swiss? Probably FT2, keep it simple. Additionally, you could choose to cut top 8 Swiss into a single elimination or double elimination top 8 bracket (MTG sticks with single elim top 8 post-Swiss most of the time). Maybe extending it an amalgamation bracket, where there's a top 16, with a top 8 winners and top 8 losers, and maybe have the losers side stick to FT2 for expedience, or have all of it be FT3. Doesn't matter so much. To wrap up my thoughts, I think there's another valuable aspect to having Swiss, which is the elimination of pools. How many times do we hear about a top 8 player having had "easy pools" (where they're the biggest fish in the pond). It can muddy the waters even further as to what their placement in the tournament says about their skill level. Either way, love the video, loved your thoughts. Always a cool head.
How swiss tournament isn't the standard yet for games with massive entrees like sf is a mystery to me. Also, league of legends does group stages before top 8, which makes it much more interesting for viewers. Its also needed to cram all the top teams into one tournament. You play everybody twice, and the point leaders move on.
In a lot of ways 6 has the same issues as Strive in terms of damage (i.e. most rounds come down to 2~3 solid conversions and then maybe one or two incidental interactions like throw or a light confirm) because of how the game's system rewards punishes (whiff or otherwise) over traditional counter hits, and how free the game is with resources. It makes the game super fun, dynamic, and explosive, but it is also definitely volatile enough to probably warrant Strive's universal FT3 format.
To clear something up, "大味" in japanese has two meaing, one is "dull, not tasty", the other one is "not delicate enough" which is exactly what scrubby means. We all know SF6 is a very fun game, it won't be considered dull. So Daigo knew what chat was talking about and he expressed himself saying the developers did this on purpose. There is no miss translation in this case.
The game is absolutely volatile, which I can also get being a bit frustrated about sometimes since one mistake can absolutely cost you (happens to me a lot so far) but I do not think that "scrubby" is the same as "volatile" at all and I really wish that if Mena just wanted to say the game is volatile then they'd learn the right words first or phrase it to something closer to what they wanted to say instead of immediately jumping to inflammatory language, be it in English or otherwise
Lots of neutral-skipping tools built in the game's core system (drive impact, drive rush) in addition to regular neutral skipping tools. Longer recovery on normals to make drive impact useful in neutral leads to jump-ins being very strong and whiff punishing a lot easier. We still have a crumple state similar to crush counter on a lot of heavy normals too. Overall I believe it incentivises gambling rather than safer play in neutral game and with throw loops rounds tend to snowball a lot.
DI does not skip neutral because it's instead an extension of neutral. easily punishable and reactable when done raw. DR is just a movement mechanic and you're old.
Semantics, what about my point though ? If your attention span allowed to go that far, of course. By the way, I've been master since week 3, I know how to deal with the game's systems, I simply don't enjoy it that much.
the irony of someone calling mechanics they consider overly strong "scrubby" while complaining about them, when the classic "scrub" is categorized as someone who complains about tactics they consider overly strong lol
what is the irony? dude is a master at the game. none of us here really get to say anything to him about SF. lmao delusional SF people always think they somehow get to dictate the attitude about a game.. even to people who they couldn't win a game vs if the person played with one hand.
@@Taunt61I think Sajam put it best; Ultimately the pros are just human, they will be salty at points. Specially now because a million $ is on the line; So Mena being 2nd, hits hard, for how consistent he was being. Every loss pros have now, weighs so much because of that million.
@@Taunt61The main problem is that it seems extremely hypocritical of him to use scrubby when it really looks like he got salty over getting second place and when he uses Blanka. I like watching Blanka and don’t necessarily disagree that randomness is a key factor in this game (you have to guess a lot in fighting games and quickly, who knew) but what he wants to get fixed would fuck with his own playstyle with one of his most effective characters.
I agree with adjusting sets to more games, the beauty of fighting games is seeing people adapt. You'll see more of that, and on top of it like Daigo said it wasn't good even during super turbo days. It's wild to think about that rules that applied 20-30 years ago should remain the same now. Every sport changes it's rules over time (NBA:14 second shot clock after an offensive rebound, MLB with pitching) it's time to consider adjusting how many games is played during a set.
Hi. I completely understand that the rules will always change, but lacking life with two combos is not good, maybe in STF7 they will beat you with a combo that eliminates 100% vitality, that is my complaint, life runs out easily and quickly in stf6, about the rules and the way to play is cool
man, fuck the pros, I just want the game to be FUN. I don't care how hard these basement dwellers shriek over how low the skill ceiling is. Daigo is right, and you can't expect to maintain a healthy population over time if you cannot get new players to stick around.
As a relatively casual player, I love how the game feels and plays. I feel like the game gives you so many more tools to deal with people who abuse scrubby tactics than most other fighting games. I'm sure it's different when you're among the best of the best, but for me, this game is right where it needs to be. That's not to say it can't be improved upon, in fact the new drive rush shortcut helped me out a ton as a stick player. I just think that if changes are going to be made, minor tweaks are all we need.
the same tools used to beat scrub tactics are the scrub tactics youre using the beat them in 6 thats the issue. it isnt fireballs anymore its the entire drive system. the way someone would back up into the corner and only throw fireballs doesnt mean the concept of a fireball is scrubby it can just be a massive low skill player tactic.
@@satsu3098 Could you elaborate, please? I'm not really sure what you mean when you say, "you're using [scurb tactics] to beat them in 6." Are you saying that using one of the game's fundamental mechanics at all is inherently scrubby? I don't know how else to read that. And I'm not sure what your example of someone throwing fireballs from the corner is supposed to illustrate.
I mean the scrubbiest stuff is the DI no? I'm also casual, don't get to play often so currently bronze/ silver range. People doing DI 3-4 times a round makes me want to break my controller. I simply cannot focus on antiairing, doing my own poking and countering DIs at the same time. It feels so bad sometimes, as if poking with heavy kicks/punches has no place in this game.
@@Taunt61have you done the DI setting in training mode? it helps me a ton to be able to react to random DI’s and get in a mindset of throwing out moves expecting DI in response. But I do have that feeling of it taking from my focus on antiairs I agree.
i was a super gold guile/sagat main in sf5 but now i have a master guile like wtf. placement matches put me in diamond and i pretty much lost every game until i took a break from guile and switched to ryu. came back to guile and got him to master after getting better at the game. ranked was always based on playrate but i think its just easier with the influx of new players. @chad8813 got multiple characters to plat and ive been a solo guile main my whole time with the game thats how i got him to master. i think i agree with brian that there should be ranks past master
I think many have conflated the original debate. People responded to Mena as showing examples of all SF titles having scrubby parts to the game. Daigo's response doesn't validate Mena at all. The argument was never is SF6 scrubby or not. It was, is SF6 scrubbier than past SF titles? And Daigo even mentioned how SF2 is scrubby as well. All SF titles have scrubby parts. SF6 is no different. That's why people lambasted the Mena complaint. Because he has no experience in other SF titles, he thinks only the newest one is srubby.
Daigo is the voice of truth and wisdom in the FGC. Play a FT5 with new players, you lose the first 3 matches, it's 3-0, in almost 9 out of 10 of the scenarios if not all, you will always win 5-3, in the first set, and it will only get worse for them the more sets you play.
I now have a genuine question, if we did have a better tournament system than what we have for today's standards, do you think the players we view as the BEST would stay that way?
They probably would because part of their secret is they put in waaaaaay more time than the rest of us and also spend that time optimally. Part of the secret to being a top player, from what I've seen is consistency consistency consistency.
Yes 2000%. The one who puts in the most time, while ha ing to best potential, will usually get in top. There is a reason why its almoat always the same on top.
Can’t know until we see it in action for some time. I’m sure some players who aren’t pros would benefit a lot if they had one or two more matches worth of time to adapt and calm the tournament nerves.
I think the scrubby sentiment goes hand to hand with how to format is. If a game feels scrubby and you only have 2 very short games to adapt to gimmicks, the "scrubbiness" of the game feels even more prominent than in a longer set.
There's something that needs to also be said. We kinda have to stop taking the words of every pro as gospel personally. Just cause someone is a pro player, it doesn't mean they're immune to error. Something I've also noticed is that some pros criticise this game ONLY because new players with the potential of being a pro are slowly popping up and these criticisms may stem from their fear of being toppled by newer players. For every person that thinks it's "scrubby" there are ten more who think it's good and are slowly climbing up the ranks getting ready to take on the pros. I could be wrong, but just some food for thought. Edit: This is more so in response to Mena. I actually agree with Brian and some of Diago's points, especially around tournament setups, etc.
You're absolutely right. Calling the game scrubby is a way to discredit people that may actually be better than them because "they won with randomness, not skill". Ironic since everybody thought prior to sf6's release that sf5 players were only good at a "scrubby game" like 5.
yes there are other tournament formats, to give you or anyone an idea: there was a 500-1000 player pinball tournament pre-pandemic called pinburgh over a weekend. it was all match-play (up to 4 players because it's pinball) but at the end of each day (there'd be 5-7 rounds with matches lasting an hour), everyone is sorted by W-L, and divided into divisions. A division, B division, C division. each division would then compete amongst themselves for prizes and trophies on Sunday. B division winners tended to be new to competitive play and went on to greater success after the pressure of competing in the finals of that division. There would be exceptions that certain players would not get sorted into the B/C/D division because they had previously won a tournament, but they would have a steep hill to climb to get their W-L back up to qualify for finals. The other benefit is that you would still get to compete the rest of the weekend, so you wouldn't be done after going 0-2.. I'm a casual scrub as far as SF goes (played some fighting games way back when..) but I've been spectating for a few years. I've been pretty impressed with the FGC and tournaments
It's a translation problem. He said "Ooaji" in the video. "Ooaji" literally means "Thick Taste". It should probably be translated in English as "Bland". SF6 has flashy wild mechanisms and high damages that can reduce the value of various tactics and techniques within a single round. He's saying the game is a little too wild. So he continued his talk with the ideal number of rounds SF6 tournament should have . "Scrub", I don't know what the definition of scrub is but there's no way it's the same as "Ooaji".
"Scrub" is just a slang term that has a different definition depending on context. Most commonly it is used to describe something "cheap" or "new player". In this context, Mena is basically saying that SF6 was designed with new and/or bad players in mind and some of the "scrubby" mechanics (Drive Rush specifically) lower the skill gap in order to encourage newer and less skilled players.
Japan FGC has a specific term for a scrubby game "kusoge" or literally shit game although the term is used in an even more negative way than "scrubby" and is typically used for things like Jojo and FotNS fighters but Guilty Gear and MvC has also been called kusoge so it varies
So within the same same paragraph you're saying he's claiming the game is both "bland" and "too crazy" as if those two descriptors aren't completely opposite each other. Which is it then lmfao
thanks. There's one definitive example in Japanese fighting games. When Daigo's generation hears "ooaji", most of them will remind of "Samurai Shodown (1993)"/"Samurai Shodown III" with the reason being "Fierce slash is everything". It's not about being a shit game or a cheap game. Also "Street Fighter (1987)" is ooaji and kusoge because it's a mere shoryuken trainer.
@@librarygary1618 When some feature is dominating rest of the game mechanics and the game can't tell which player is really superior. The game is giving seemingly unfair outcome. That's being bland. For SF6 he may be saying damage adjustment and drive rush are too crazy, so in order to make it fair for everyone, SF6 tournament might need more matches.
We hear the same thing after the release of every street fighter. He didn’t even say that. I don’t even know if they have that made up word in Japanese.
im kinda new to street fighter can someone point me in the direction of a fighting game that is not considered scrubby? i always see top players crying about these new games
Non scrubby games are a myth. Every fighting game has something that doesn’t abide by footsies/honor codes. Even Footsies, a game which is focused on making the most honest footsies game ever, has a raging demon and you can still random DP all over the place if you want. Wishing for the good old days of non scrubby games is just a talking point that people of all levels refer to when venting. I don’t hold that against anyone though; everyone can get tilted when playing fighting games. Pros have actual money on the line, so I understand that they may be even more prone to being annoyed at a game after losing. There are some games that are more “honest” than others, but every game has their share of wack stuff. I can’t really point you to a game without scrubby stuff, but generally games with many neutral skip/high damage stuff can come off as more scrubby (not a bad thing in my eyes though). See Guilty Gear or honestly most anime fighters. Street fighter in general *tends* (strong emphasis on tends) to be more honest than a lot of other fighters, which is why it can have the reputation of being sorta the white bread of fighters (a notion I don’t agree with). I never played SF3 3rd strike but from what I’ve seen due to the extremely strong defensive options and general lack of long combos it seems to have a larger focus on “honest” play, but of course still has its share of wack shit.
@@HyziantYeah, a lotta people will point at the new thing, say it’s scrubby compared to the old thing, then someone points to some absolutely filthy garbage they completely ignored because the salt was currently in their eyes.
That's a psychological effect resulting from having to adapt, I think. Any change to a game that is fundamental enough to even slightly alter who gets the accolades will invariably upset those who feel they're not getting rewarded the same. I think this is why the stalemate rule in chess hasn't been altered for centuries. On the surface, it doesn't make sense: you manage to put your opponent in a position wherein their only move is to lose and that is, somehow, a draw. However, knowing this rule has made players develop tactics to save a losing position, so changing it now, would upset a lot of players and forever alter the meta.
Flex sets are always an interesting idea. If one player wins two games in a row, they win the set. Essentially you could run "Bo5" with flex sets to weed out the 0-2 losses, but still have a Bo5 if its competitive. Later bracket (Top 8 or All Finals Matches depending on size and logistics) could be Bo7 flex or no flex (3-0 Elim or it could go to game 6/7) There are definitely healthy alternatives that can be tweeked for time. It has been discussed in the Melee scene for awhile since games can run long (depending on matchup)
IMO SFV was just as volatile but to get that level of just randomly blowing up you had to be good at single-hit confirming which, let's be fair, a majority of Diamond players couldn't do. In SF6 it's the same thing, but you replace the skill of confirming a 16-17 frame window for just mashing DR in neutral. I think In every other aspect SF6 is more complex than 5 but I do think this one change made the game too scrubby, I'm also salty because It took me sooooo much practice to master single hit confirms for them to basically take them out of the game.
I don't understand how mashing DR in neutral gives you easier hit confirms. Do you mean DR cancels? Those take 3 bars and reduce your scaling, its a trade-off. They can also make the scaling worse or increasing the cost, but your skill is not wasted in the least.
I think the point though is that every game has that. SF4 players missed 1-frame links and the expression that came with it when SF5 launched. New game means new skills that are important.
I love SF6 but the biggest problem I have with this game and why I agree with Mena is that the game rewards players bad habits/bad decisions too often. Because of the volatile nature of the game, I could make a couple of mistakes because of human error and I am immediately in a big disadvantage during the round. Small things like how the DI cancel window is very short leading to inputs getting stuffed even though I physically reacted on time and drive rush in neutral really contribute to being at that disadvantage. Yes, I believe the better player will win almost all the time in this game, but it is so frustrating to deal with as someone who has legacy experience with SF but is not a top level player and doesn't have much tournament experience. I understand that self improvement and patience goes a long way in defeating players, but the fact that I have a better understanding of the game compared to players that I would consider lower level than me and I still get in tight situations angers me.
“You won’t get a consistent result with a FT2 or FT3” even as someone who doesn’t really step in this realm, I play storm and we do FT10s. It’s a really good way to showcase who’s the better player.
Maybe there is a way to make it so once you hit top 64 or later all sets start becoming FT3 or FT5 even. I personally think sets online in SF6 should be FT3 though I have lost 2-0 in casuals to many people just to win the set 5-2 and have them quit. SF6 game snowballs very fast from not expecting a DI in a situation you have never seen or not checking a DR.
I know a lot of the FGC doesnt like the smash scene, but why havent they transitioned to a ft2 for stuff like pools and early bracket and then switch to ft3 or ft5 for later in the bracket as higher seeded players start to meet each other.
The days of throwing a fireball and someone jumping at you means instant death is old and honestly it never was good. It was suggestively good back then because that's the only thing that was available back then as far as developers goes. I think people need to stop comparing different games and lean off the copium so that they can be open to new experiences and grow from there.
I've never played sf4, sf5 was my favorite game and now I understand what everyone was complaining about that loved sf4. I'm having fun with the game, but the skill transition in terms of what I had gotten good at is frustrating. I realize every new game is a total experiment, so I can't hate capcom for trying... But I have to admit I miss sfv 😢...
what? you miss sf5? the 7 year old game that you had time to get good at???? and you dont vibe with the brand new game with new mechanics & it whooping ur butt?? WOW! who would have thought
@@ekwensu8797The wording was mad aggressive for no reason (kinda like Mena) but I can kinda understand the “The game’s still fresh, give it time” message.
This is a misunderstanding imho. It's just a culture gap, let me try to elaborate: I studied japanese for quite sometime and the translation is fine. I know it sounds odd for us, we grew up with individual values like freedom and expressing ourselves as the utmost important things, but they grew up being taught respect for others and harmony with society. For them it's society's health > personal views. So they try to be nice and respectable of people's views, they can and will say "Yes" meaning "No" or "Agree" but disagreeing on the inside, in order to preserve the status quo. You will rarely find what a japanese person truly thinks if you put out an opinion first! Even in japanese day to day language they use alot of expressions like と思う(I think) and かも (maybe) at the end of their phrases to not sound like they are confronting you on a topic. Their culture is very different so I don't think we should judge him based on ours. What my japanese friends used to do was repeating what I said and then adding a little twist or something positive about it, just like Daigo did poiting out that it's better for beginners. That probably is a subtle sign that he doesn't fully agree with it.
People don't give Mena the respect he deserves because he has always come off as abrasive. I feel those same sentiments have been shared toward a lot of the DR players, and I think it's more of a cultural misunderstanding that has just never been addressed. DR has a whole hype crew and carry a lot of excitement. People misread that excitement and think they're being disrespectful, but that's just them. These dudes broke into the scene as underdogs and proved they hang at the top. They've got a reason to be proud about that.
The underlying problem is that the pro fgc has a lot of terrible egos that dislike anything that doesn't cater to them winning money. I mean the brackets are already tailored to give certain players the best chance to make top 8 because of viewership and money. Why not just license pro players and limit events to licensed only? It is the direction the fgc needs to go if it wants to grow in viewership. The out of control egos only hurt its legitimacy.
A good compromise between open bracket and invitational is to have an open event with a separate qualifier event. Probably doesn't make sense for majors which'd have lots of international players travelling over, but you could have something like e.g. the USA Championship that's open to US residents with an online qualification phase and then a longer format offline event at the end of it. I think it would be interesting if more tournaments did round robin pools similar to the World Cup/TWT Finals (except not putting every single game on stream like TWT did… everyone seemed to complain about how that impacted the schedule iirc). It solves one of my biggest complaints with open bracket tournaments, which is going 0-2 and then having nothing to do, while not being quite as punishing on the schedule as a full round robin tournament is. Unsure how well that'd scale for something as ludicrously big as Evo, but I definitely think a lot of majors/large monthlies/online tournaments (especially online tournaments) could be good candidates for this sorta format. I remember East London Fighters did this for their Tekken PS4 Lockdown Special and it was a lot of fun. For medium-sized events, it could also be interesting to run Swiss, but that does suffer from not being so good for spectators. This could also be a good format for online tournaments potentially, as it gives the TOs more pairings to pull from to put on stream instead of having one player feature four or five times because they got deep into the bracket.
I have started 0-4 in random FT10s and still come out on top in SF6. The opposite has also occurred if i'm the one who starts out with a big lead. Longer sets really expose you, and typically by the 7th match, i'm certain where i am with someone around my skill level.
To put it plainly, "ooaji" means that the damage is too high. Daigo agreed because scrubby is translated as "ooaji" I'm Japanese so I don't know what scrubby means
I think he means, beginners and players with lower skill level can be very strong because of the game's design. For this reason, he says the game is "scrubby."
My bet is that inside of a year we’re going to start running into perfect parry gods that will really screw with everybody’s perception of how the game can be played defensively. Two frames is a small window, but not too small for pros.
Definitely needs to spread awareness to bring FT3 to SF6's important tournament matches and bring more organizers in to make a "ladder" of sorts to allow everyone a chance to really step up. If there's one game I can think of that allows the FGC to evolve, it's SF6 and it's already laid right there, ready to be utilized.
They should do it like other Opens like tennis or golf. The established pros are seeded and don't have to play in. The masses have to qualify through the open process, and the tournament you actually watch is only top 256 or something.
But what is a pro player ? Only those sponsored ? There should be a ranking and take the best 16 or 32 and then let people qualify. That's what Capcom Europe done last year for Street Fighter League Europe
I think one important topic that wasn't brought up here is the value of this intended volatility. You know how the crowd/chat goes nuts when a Johnny Donuts beats a Daigo. Or when there was a VT comeback even though SFV was basically designed for that. I understand that these are factors mostly controlled by the game developers and we're talking about tournament organization here, but, like you said one of the pillars of the tournaments is entertainment itself. I completely agree that the current formats are bad for competitivity integrity, but how important that really is for entertainment?
When sf6 first came out, it was the ultimate fighting game… now it’s scurby. There is no multiplayer game on earth that has came out in this shity social media era that hasn’t been complained about
My thoughts exactly. The first two weeks this game was out all I saw was "STREET FIGHTER IS BACK BABY" and slowly but surely over the last month, half of every twitch chat and UA-cam comment section has turned to complaints about basically every single mechanic in the game. First people cried about drive impact being too strong, and now everyone and their mother is crying about drive rush because more people are actually learning how to use it because of the update.
I think people clowned on Mena cuz it was obvious he made a salt tweet after he lost, which is scrubby. You can be the best player on earth and still say scrub shit (Leffen). I also think Daigo and co will always say longer, more consistent formats are better, because they have stake in the game. Anything that increases their chances to win is something they'd want. It's a concession to them that big tournaments are open brackets because pro players would rather not get caught out and put in losers vs Fudgesicle420's random ass Ken playing at 10 in the morning, but it's like that because it pleases the most people.
It kinda sucks to say, but open-bracket tournaments where everybody, pros and "Johnny Donuts" alike, are all in the same brackets, is the main reason I ever go to events. I feel like that is a cool unique thing about the FGC, and if that went away, that would eliminate most of my interest in going to big events. But I recognize my opinion probably doesn't carry any water on the subject. I understand the argument about changing formats for more competitive integrity, but if it comes at the expense of big open bracket tournaments as they are today, then I just personally would probably lose interest.
That isn't true. The fgc more than any esport thrives on every individual player. You don't have massive organizations backing your events like Riot or Intel for example.
For you, open-bracket tournaments are the main reason to go. For me, they are the reason why I stopped watching tournaments. I do agree that open-bracket tournaments should exist, but at the top level I much prefer having tournaments with less players and longer matches. Richard Lewis hit the nail on the head imho: The professional side (players, on-screen talents, production crew,...) can't grow, because Johnny Donuts wants to be in the same bracket as Daigo.
@@Corran123Yeah, like I said, I get it. I understand why the format would change to better suit pro players. I just personally am not that interested in it. I already don't watch or pay attention to invitationals for this reason. Is what it is. I wish all the success in the world to everyone, however they want to do it.
@@Corran123 the problem is that if that were the case, you would have no tournaments to watch regardless. In terms of esports, FGC is a poverty sport. Most tournaments are funded by the FGC community, so without them, you wouldn't even have a tournament to watch. The reason for this is really simple too, the FGC as a whole is considered one sport, unlike other genres where each game, not the entire genre is considered a sport. This makes it easier for large companies that host tournies to firstly get permission to host tournaments for said game, get venues, secure sponsorships, and create meaningful tourney series and leagues much like the sport ecosystem riot has created, or circuits like Apex's ALGS.
While I understand that most may disagree, one viable solution to the issue of determining the number of matches played could be the implementation of online tournaments. However, it's important to acknowledge that this solution may just substitute one issue with another.
The problem is people are taking his statement personally. It’s like they feel personally attacked, because they enjoy the game. So in turn, they attack him as a person. Just read this comment section. For the record, I really enjoy both DI, and DR, but it’s ok if Mena disagrees
Mena is my personal hero for validating the opinions of scrubs everywhere, including myself, but the fact that people still disregard his thoughts just goes to show you that people will never, ever stop moving the goalposts on you. You will never be good enough at the game to express negative opinions about it on Twitter without people telling you that you just need to stop whining.
Idk man getting second place and then taking it to Twitter sounds like whining to me. You can have your opinions as a pro but your opinions isn't gospel, tons of pros have had negative opinions about other older sf games, doesn't make those opinions gospel either. Maybe understand that Mena is also a human and think for your self instead of just dick riding all dya
The amount of players you run into in plat and diamond who clearly don't really know what they are doing is testament to the 'scrubbiness' of SF6. Totally agree on the longer sets being needed though but I don't think that fits into Capcom's plan.
Fighting game developers are sadly moving in this direction of trying to level the playing field by adding easier ways to make big tempo swings. I call it the Mario Kart rubber band flow. - easy high damage - lax controls - easily exploitative mechanics - easy tempo loss/gain Guilty Gear Strive is still guilty of this after many patches. You *have* to fix these things. More matches doesn't change the competitive integrity of the game. That in most cases just adds more random/scrubby matches to an already long event. The quality of the matches doesn't necessarily improve just because there's more of them. Street Fighter 2 Turbo is a bad example. Capcom was still learning about balance and were stuck with not being able to patch games at that period of time. Holding player's hands and dancing around the problems with a band-aid solution (more matches) *will* hurt the competitive circle. They better not let this "scrubby" label hang around for long.
Daigo’s favourite Street Fighter is a game where Round 1 starts with completely fully stocked Super meter and where you can lose the entire match because you jumped or threw a fireball at 99 seconds. GOAT yes, someone who should be considered a taste maker as to what makes a solid game? You be the judge.
@Brian_F, is there an avenue available for people to discuss fighting game theory online without Twitter? I think that is the core of all these problems.
Why brush off the current top players comments, albeit relatively new, and immediately accept whatever daigo says? I get hes the beast and good, but when was the last time this guy even made top 8? The game is easily accessible and i think thats where the problem lies. Making something too accessible alienates your players who want something more difficult and requires time and effort.
Love Daigo’s answer! DR lets players be aggressive and makes the games quicker, so ft3 sets shouldn’t be a problem. I come from smash where a ft2 set on average takes 10-12 minutes and we’ve made the logistics work.
Personally, I think things like DI and DR needs to be tweaked a bit. In what ways, I'm not sure I articulate well in a UA-cam comment. At the very least, you shouldn't be able to mash jab twice on someone doing DI, hit them twice, and then mash DI in response. I also think it might be best to make it so you can't DR cancel into DI, but that might be too far. Unrelated to DI and DR, but apparently throw techs are kind of broken right now. If you accidentally do a motion before the tech, you won't tech.
Honestly the more I play SF6 the more I feel like its just Guilty Gear Strive with less options. I know they’re two almost completely different games but honestly the drive cancel system reminds me of Roman Cancel but with just less flexibility to use it. I could even argue Drive rush is similar to fast RC forward cancels. This isn’t my first Street fighter but it’s definitely the one I’ve put the most time into and in my opinion the game is kinda bland to play/watch and Im not a huge fan of the neutral play at all in this game
Translating what Mena said to what Daigo said is like going from a lunch meat sandwich to a Tomahawk steak. Great video btw nice way of getting to your point.
Modern controls were an absolute game changer for me. I’ve loved fighting games forever, but separating the input issues from actually fighting let me finally enjoy the game.
Modern controls were an absolute crutch for me* learn how to play the game as its intended and not have to rely on modern controls that were implemented for brain dead monkeys who dont understand what a Z motion is or how to use a charge character
I'm late to the party, but Daigo was asked if SF6 is 大味, which means "bland", "boring", "lacking excitement". Not at all similar to the English "scrubby".
do not think "agressiveness" is the same as scrubby. guilty gear since forever promotes agression in all it's mechanics (burst fills faster when you attack, you gain meter walking forward and attacking, RISC, negative penalty, etc). I'm not bringing up strive specifically because someone will call it scrubby, which I agree, but positive bonus despite being something that resets both players to neutral, it also gives positive bonus, which you can get by breaking the wall and by simply being agressive.
confirms are difficult for new players, drive rush makes that, and offense overall way easier. Feels like the skill gap is lessened in this game therefore needing longer formats for consistent results. So yeah its scrubby but not a bad thing. its fun!
@@celuiquipeut6527How would the game be more fun without it? Having just no combos or player expression with drive meter usage because it was explicitly built around it.
Probably should've mentioned in the video, I personally don't think SF6 is "scrubby". I do think drive rush is hard to contest, but it is what it is!
Good video Brian?
Do you feel there is any difference, in terms of the better player winning more consistently, between FT3/FT2 round/game sets and FT2/FT3 sets? I was watching Tekken, which tends to be FT3/FT2, and was curious about the competitive difference, if there is any in your opinion.
They definitly have to nerf drive rush in neutral , it's just way too strong and spammable .
I don’t really agree that his original tweet was that inflammatory. People just hate any form of negative criticism about a game they like
@@lt_johnmcclane I agree it's not a big deal, but the timing of it is why people clung to it like this. Whether he was or not he looked salty and people latch on to that.
Edit: According to some other people, it the word Daigo and his chat uses could generally have the same implication as what the English-speaking FGC consider "scrubby."
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In Japanese he's saying "ooaji" 大味 which is more like "dull" or "uninteresting," definitely less incendiary than "scrubby." I guess this goes back to how Drive Rush is such a core mechanic, it could be seen as dominating the game so much that it's overused and making the game repetitive, but Daigo's stance in general is to roll with it, and instead to look at a consistent format like FT3/FTx.
I figured there was a more accurate translation than "scrubby", thanks. I think the problem with Mena's post is using that word + twitter character limitations. Much easier to get your point across with spoken word and longer format without getting people riled up.
Mena definitely didn't mean "dull" or "uninteresting", he meant exactly how it sounded in order to blame his loss on the game instead of reflecting inward
@@divertiti what loss
@@Torqable the one Brian refers to literally like 2:00 minutes into the video
"Roughly" is closer in meaning than those.
FT2 is too short. Imagine training for thousands of hours, flying across the country, and making two wrong reads against Marisa.
this one is gold, i know its gonna happen too.
And the marisa could be CPU LVL3 and still 60% you
Yeah, marissa is braindead.
damn, olympic athlete can relate
5 round games would fix this.
There's a reason why Daigo hasn't been attending tournaments recently and instead focused on setting up his own tournaments and events like kemonomichi, he saw the problems that usual tournament formats have and instead does his own FT10s that display skill better. He's doing what he's preaching, that's cool.
Wasn't Godsgarden doing FT10s back in the day?
Super turbo also has Mao who organizes ft10s and other tournaments for the folks still playing st. I’ve said I wish we had longer formats like what chess does. Round robin or swiss with ft10 against each opponent spread out over days or weeks to completion. It would be a true world champion title
That's like, not at all what he said ? You are putting word in his mouth. It's more likely for the same reason he is not part of them is the same reason he wasn't in SFL.
1. he wants to grind against more various players
2. Feels like he can do more for the game and community by doing his own thing (eg: CR cup that had HUUUUUUGE viewing)
WHat you make him say is not even reading between the lines, it's just not there.
@@nekogami87 Read your point no.2, is he taking part and organising events that are not following usual tournament formats? He also took part in the alpha 3 kemonomichi FT10.
He is taking part in these events that follow exactly what he preached, instead of spending time on the usual formats, he is doing exactly as what he believes are good for the FGC.
@@GuyWithAnAmazingHat I am not saying he is not, what I am saying is that's not the reason he didn't participate in other events / capcom's official stuff. which is what you said with "There's a reason why Daigo hasn't been attending tournaments recently" and that's what I was calling out. That's correlation, not causality, if that's how you decide to interpret what he is doing fine, but don't present it like that's the cause.
So Daigo was asked if SF6 is 大味 (o-aji), which is a way of saying that something lacks nuance (originally used to describe food taste). I think it's a good translation for scrubby in this context, in that there's more variability that might give a lesser skilled player a win in a short set.
Makes sense. There probably isn't a good JP translation for "scrubby"
Yeah it seems like this is a better translation, it doesn’t seem like daigo thinks the game is boring or dull, but that maybe high level gameplay is becoming samey due to reliance on upsets with drive rush into high damage combos.
@@AggrofoolI got really confused as to why you were bringing up J.P. but then I realized you mean JP(Japanese)
This term is frequently used to describe games, as well, usually in that the game is going for flashy, attractive to casuals, buzzword-y stuff rather than core gameplay depth. In the context of fighting games, it is probably the closest approximation as there isn't really an 1 to 1 equivalent for "scrubby" when describing the game itself. You'll actually see this word frequently used to describe the trends among modern fighting games like SF6, GGST, MBTL, etc. with simplifications and easy-to-use, but powerful, polarizing systems.
It's a softer term than "scrubby" though, in that it's not so aggressively attacking a subset of players in the same breath.
I could hear Daigo talk for hours. Not only is his voice nice, but he’s got some good stuff to say.
Absolutely! And the same is true of Brian_F with his ability to address these topics and articulate them so well. It’s just fantastic.
He definitely thinks about his videogame often both in a professional way wanting to have fun way.
@@slothywunreally one of the best sf vulgarizers out there, if not the best
Humble veteran. He played fighting games that were arguably more unbalanced and brutal to compete in, I trust his words as well thought out.
his cadence is one of a kind
Daigo was mistranslated the tweet, he was essentially told that Mena expressed his feelings as "bland" not scrubby
Can someone provide a precise definition of "scrubby"? I understand that "scrub" is a term used derogatorily for beginners, but what does it imply when describing a game as "scrubby"? My best guess is something like "a game in which such beginners have an unfair advantage over experts".
@@user-wy7mc6km7vmy understanding is that it has strong mechanics that require minimal skill to get good at or abuse. I could be wrong though, also just noticed you commented like a minute ago, lol was a coincidence I saw it at the same time.
@@user-wy7mc6km7v scrubby is derogatory but in the context Mena was using it he just meant it’s random/chaotic. Usually when players use this term they’re trying to say there’s no method to the madness
It's something like scrubby dubi doo
@@user-wy7mc6km7v yeah, I feel like it describes a character or FGs which is too easy to play and can just throw random stuff and it'll work and doesn't have to worry about getting punished hard. Basically, the top tier characters with low skill ceiling or maybe I'm wrong.😅
the best part of SF6 is that no person on the planet will can say the last game was better lmao
You'll see one every now and then. I actually ran into one idiot who actually thought Blanka had been nerfed since V.
@@xaviervega468no shot someone said that
@@ΚρανίΩ They did. Not a pro mind you, just some random online idiot.
5 has the coldest grave in history 😂
The only thing 5 has on 6 is animation consistency. For now
Daigo went straight to the point lmao
As it should be.
He also said it was way better than 5 and not comparable at all. 😂
I hate 5 too lol
Thought your logo was Tycho's "Awake" album lol
@@atkascha thats why i like the artwork because of exactly that except a triangle
I'd love longer sets for lots of games. The last big Strive event at EVO Japan was something of a blowout in the top 8 in terms of how fast Mochi burned through the competition
Smash ultimate has had tournaments with thousands of players doing fto2 for years. Each set takes considerably longer than even a ft3 in sf6 (worst case scenario around 30 minutes per set ). It then increases to ft3 for top 8. It's definitely doable in sf6 to have everything up to top 8 be fto3 and then fto5 in top 8.
Dragonball FighterZ matches also take forever so often its necessary to do ft2 depending on the number of players in a tournament
Bro smash matches can be 6 to 8 minutes each. Theres a huge difference in that.
And Smash runs over time by a lot every single year. You left thay part out. It makes the even significantly longer.
As someone who’s first “serious” fighting game was dragon ball fighterz, SF6’s matches are INCREDIBLY short lol. There’s a reason the default timer in fighterz is 5 minutes. In this tournaments they consistently do ft3 unless the pool of players is too big then they’ll do ft2 for general pools and ft3 for top 8. SF6 not being ft3 already is really mind boggling to me because there is PLENTY of time to do it. I don’t think I’ve EVER had a game be decided by time and the timer is only 90 seconds, they should easily be able to increase it without tournaments becoming unnecessarily long. Other fighting games already do this and their individual matches are MUCH longer lol.
@@aureateseigneur5317but that wouldn’t happen in SF6, so why would increasing the matches be a negative?
I feel the opposite. SF6 has mechanics that allow tons of creativity. As we get more characters, that will become even more clear.
Agreed !
Broke: Oh, so when I do a DP in neutral, it’s random, but when Daigo does it, it’s a read?
Woke: Oh, so when I disparage SF6, I’m salty, but when Daigo does it, it’s insightful?
Yknow the drill, opinions are subjective. Except daigo's, his are facts
if daigo rage tweeted after a loss like mena did i would also laugh at him. but i respect it because daigo fucking thinks before he speaks.
I've only ever heard people call things scrubby when they're seething. I'm sure most people feel the same. So my brain kind of just naturally goes "oh you're just mad." When I hear those words whether there is a good reason for them or not.
Anyone can hate game design, Diago for an example has one of the greatest SF3 moment of all time, guess what? He has been on record saying SF3 is the worst SF of all and had the worst game design of all SF he has played. Just because pro players don't like some game mechanic doesn't mean they suck at the game.
To add to your argument. Mena may be the most decorated young player in 5 and already took the best tournament by far in 6. If anyone opinions matter, it's his.
@@WhentheBehelitScreamsyour opinion is hella flawed. Mena ain’t been in the game as long as daigo or have daigos accolades to make a claim like that bruh. Compared to sf4 and sf3, sf5 is baby food .
@@SoulInajar 100% agreed. I hated SF5, I played SF3 the most, and SF4 was my favorite. The point I was making is Mena is winning and still called it scrubby. You won't get a more honest scenario. I had no flaws, just pointing out that because of Mena's early success in 6, it makes his "opinion" more valid. If a person who was out here losing consistently said the game was scrubby, it would feel salty and spiteful. Context clues are important. You gotta understand before you respond.
Does Daigo actually outright hate/dislike 3rd Strike though or is it hyperbolized because iirc at most he just thinks the mechanics are skewed towards defense than offense and nothing more
@@SoulInajarBaby food in what way?
Not the Ft2 v Ft3 arguement again 😭
Edit: Forgot "first to" and "best of" is different.
Of course. Bo2 easily wins that.
@@le1660nuh uh bo2 is betta
Edit: I meant to say bo3. My apologies.
@@naingaung2748 your brain just couldn't bring itself to lie about that
It probably doesn't help that sf6 is still so early in its lifespan, a lot of the scrubbier tactics are going to be more effective simply because people dont know how to play around them perfectly yet
No. Nothing about the system mechanics are that complicated that the world's best don't already have some of the best tech against it already.
Drive rush as its current form is will always be scrubby along with having to use drive rush cancels in order to to confirm cause most buttons have intentionally small cancel windows so DI isnt completely useless at high level, making single hit confirms into specials virtually impossible.(confirms, not just doing and accepting them hitting on block if you guess wrong and hitting if you guess right). Things like that will always make SF6 a scrubby game and honestly a lot worse competitively than SFV post season 4 when the game actually got competitively super solid and till this day most the FGC doesnt give credit for it. To have to go from that, then have to go to SF6 in its current state just feels competitively like such a giant downgrade. SF6 might definitely get to a point where its a far better game than SFV during the latter half of its life, but its really far from that point right now and i feel like hpw tied in the overall system is to the dumbest part of its mechanics makes it very VERY hard to fix a lot of the issues of the game. Youd have to change a lot of things, change how the corner works, change all characters overall frame data and give them more plus on block buttons, change drive meter usage of moves, chance change recovery, cancel windows, durations, add more and less damage scaling, change timings . It would be such a giant overall of the game, it would make it almost a completely different game. Which is possible for sure but not something that would happen over the course of one balance patch, and would cause a couple of patches that felt even worse than it did now till the game finally got better, with a ton of the player base dropping off from dissatisfaction. It would realistically be better accepted as a Super Street Fighter 6 or Street Fighter 6: Second Impact or something as a major overall of the game and rework. What im saying is expect the current state of the game to overall be like this and more people turning on it for its scrubby nature over the course of the next 2-3 years. At that point im not even sure its worth rather than to just start over with SF7 4 years later and just accept this is the game for what it is and some people are gonna like it for how it is, some people are gonna absolutely loathe it and eventually move on. Right now im definitely feeling in the later camp
@@Angel7black as someone who really liked sfv, competitively speaking i'm not sure if that game is much better. for some reason nobody wants to talk about 16-17f dashes being scrubby when they talk about drive rush, they cost no meter, and don't have a bright flash of green to signal they're dashing and have less frames to react than drive rush. then there is the recovery on normals in 5, most whiff punishing is "wish punishing", sticking out mediums or lights buffered at spots where you think your opponent might whiff, if the button you're trying to whiff punish even has a hurtbox. in 6 we have the punish counter mechanic, on top of the recovery being much higher in general for normals, to incentivise intentional whiff punishing, which doesn't sound scrubby to me at all. then there's v-trigger, you can argue all you want about how there're ways to minimize the impact of v-trigger, and i'd probably agree with a lot of them, but to it's core that mechanic is scrubby af, period. then there're the EX moves like zonk punch, dash punch and a few others I can't remember rn.and I find it funny how you prefer most buttons being plus in sf5, to the high/low and throw meta of sf6, high/lows being somthing you can react to, stagger pressure being something you guess on, and throws giving less reward aswell as throw escapes granting more space.
@@Angel7black with this said sf6 def has scrub shit, just trynna put it into perspective.
I'll say it again. Twitter is a good place to start a conversation, but it's a terrible place to have a conversation. Or whatever Mr. Can't Build A Train calls it now.
you're so cool bro, original opinions.
@@Tremuosohe is so cool 😎
Yep immediately people get offended as soon as you criticise something they like. Like mfs telling him to get good when they're stuck in gold 😭😂
If mr can't build a train succeeds in killing off Twitter forever it will be the greatest single act of public service this century
He started the conversation with a salty post, thats the biggest problem
It all went downhill after Street Fighter 4. Capcom completely changed the "normal" SF formula with 5 and now 6. Moves that were always punishable were now all of a sudden completely safe or even plus. Wake up became a game of throw/meaty/shimmy roulette. Neutral was almost entirely neutered with short, stubby normals. It wasn't about skill anymore, it was about bringing in noobs and scrubs and leveling the playing field and selling out to E-sports. Now with 6 they add even more scrub friendly elements with the Drive mechanics. Sad what they've done to the franchise.
I think Mena's definitely salty when he posted that. When you're pretty much the best around and randoms tell you that you're wrong, I'd be pissed too. Personally I think the game's fine as it is though I don't deny I've definitely won my fair share of matches using cheesy tactics which I do consider pretty "scrubby" in that sense.
he literally got 2nd in a tourney before making that tweet lmaoooo
@@Fralorgrafonnah it just means it was a smart play if they thought about it, a scrub is a mentality, it is someone who uses moves in panick and at random to make sure to not get punished, its essentialy a playstyle for players who do not want to learn the game.
SF6 is terrific. It’s the toxic nature of everyone publicly voicing displeasure that is scrubby.
No criticism allowed or I'll cry
1:15 Jojo demonstrating the unreactable drive rush right on cue.
I think Sajam highlighted what was happening. People most focused on the scrubby part because it has been going on since sf2 that people call the newest game scrubby and the previous game "a gentlemen's game" because of rose-tinted glasses.
Mena also didn't mention what specifically he did not like in that tweet.
He followed up his tweet after that and blamed drive rush specifically
@@Agent_A_Graham dude, you could wakeup dp into 60% life in SF4, not to mention literal unblockable setups for most of its lifespan and the insane divekick pressure some characters had, c'mon
It'd also just a phenomenon happening with fighting games at this point in time. They are becoming more popular and developers are making games for lack of a better term more "scrubby" to appeal to casuals. It's simply a business tactics that sacrifices gameplay and enjoyment at the very top. Sucks but it's just true, it's not rose tinted glasses. It's true with Guilt Gear and it's true with SF
@@Agent_A_Graham I didn't even mention that FADC was plus for a good chunk of the game's lifespan, you can use whatever tactic you want but take off them rose-tinted glasses
@@Agent_A_GrahamA lot of those unblockable setups can be drive parried easily with only a little risk of throwing because they’re already trying to frame trap the hell out of you.
I won't throw shade on Mena for having an opinion.
But, my guy, why would you put that medal in your mouth.
daigo with the best option select response, i expect nothing less from the greatest.
I trust everything LTG says
lol
GTAB
😂
😂
truly the most levelheaded unbiased takes in the fgc
It's been a while, but the SFV ladder-based online tournament from an old video had a really interesting format, i liked watching the ladder shift around until the top 8 finishes in a traditional tournament bracket.
And as for scrubby, it really does suck when the opponent beats you in a way that "shouldn't have" worked. But i think that it happens to each street fighter game, to new editions, to new balance patches. Street fighter four got the simplified shoryuken motion, which is most definitely catering to new players, and yet competitively four still saw some of the most skilled players in the world dominate.
I think now is the right time to start exploring how to best implement Swiss tournament structures in street fighter tournaments. Magic: The Gathering has a relatively decent history of running tournaments with this structure, but there's actually a reason why I think it works super well for SF6. In MTG, the bigger a tournament gets, the more Swiss rounds need to be played. Matches can go for 30+ minutes, and some tournaments can have 12+ rounds of Swiss. But in SF6, a match is finished much faster. That means you can actually run more matches in a SF6 Swiss, and the more matches you can run in a Swiss, the more "well-defined" the top bracket of the tournament can become. Another factor to take into account: in MTG tournaments, it's common for people to drop out of a tournament during the Swiss if they start off doing poorly. "0-2 drop" is a phrase in that game for a reason. So you don't necessarily lose out on the ability to trim poorly performing players from Swiss rounds, as players will determine if continuing to play is worth their time. Additionally, it's standard for Swiss rounds to be have win-rate pairing. So you'll prioritize matching up someone who's 6-1 with someone else who's 6-1, with 7-0/5-2 players being used as top/bottom bracket buffers to fill in matches as needed (in that example). This means even low skill players who are 5-6 can still get in some practice time against other 5-6 players, without risking "giving a random loss" to a top performing 10-1 player.
From there, it's a matter of deciding: what constitutes a match win in Swiss? Probably FT2, keep it simple. Additionally, you could choose to cut top 8 Swiss into a single elimination or double elimination top 8 bracket (MTG sticks with single elim top 8 post-Swiss most of the time). Maybe extending it an amalgamation bracket, where there's a top 16, with a top 8 winners and top 8 losers, and maybe have the losers side stick to FT2 for expedience, or have all of it be FT3. Doesn't matter so much.
To wrap up my thoughts, I think there's another valuable aspect to having Swiss, which is the elimination of pools. How many times do we hear about a top 8 player having had "easy pools" (where they're the biggest fish in the pond). It can muddy the waters even further as to what their placement in the tournament says about their skill level.
Either way, love the video, loved your thoughts. Always a cool head.
How swiss tournament isn't the standard yet for games with massive entrees like sf is a mystery to me.
Also, league of legends does group stages before top 8, which makes it much more interesting for viewers. Its also needed to cram all the top teams into one tournament.
You play everybody twice, and the point leaders move on.
In a lot of ways 6 has the same issues as Strive in terms of damage (i.e. most rounds come down to 2~3 solid conversions and then maybe one or two incidental interactions like throw or a light confirm) because of how the game's system rewards punishes (whiff or otherwise) over traditional counter hits, and how free the game is with resources. It makes the game super fun, dynamic, and explosive, but it is also definitely volatile enough to probably warrant Strive's universal FT3 format.
Yeah, SF6 rank with FT2 right now feels very short, like you didn't even able to get to know your opponent
To clear something up, "大味" in japanese has two meaing, one is "dull, not tasty", the other one is "not delicate enough" which is exactly what scrubby means. We all know SF6 is a very fun game, it won't be considered dull. So Daigo knew what chat was talking about and he expressed himself saying the developers did this on purpose. There is no miss translation in this case.
The game is absolutely volatile, which I can also get being a bit frustrated about sometimes since one mistake can absolutely cost you (happens to me a lot so far) but I do not think that "scrubby" is the same as "volatile" at all and I really wish that if Mena just wanted to say the game is volatile then they'd learn the right words first or phrase it to something closer to what they wanted to say instead of immediately jumping to inflammatory language, be it in English or otherwise
Lots of neutral-skipping tools built in the game's core system (drive impact, drive rush) in addition to regular neutral skipping tools. Longer recovery on normals to make drive impact useful in neutral leads to jump-ins being very strong and whiff punishing a lot easier. We still have a crumple state similar to crush counter on a lot of heavy normals too.
Overall I believe it incentivises gambling rather than safer play in neutral game and with throw loops rounds tend to snowball a lot.
Isn’t that a good thing? I thought fgc people love their aggressive play
DI does not skip neutral
@doctordice2doctordice210 no, thats exactly why sfv esp early on was so hated. Braindead offense
DI does not skip neutral because it's instead an extension of neutral. easily punishable and reactable when done raw. DR is just a movement mechanic and you're old.
Semantics, what about my point though ? If your attention span allowed to go that far, of course.
By the way, I've been master since week 3, I know how to deal with the game's systems, I simply don't enjoy it that much.
the irony of someone calling mechanics they consider overly strong "scrubby" while complaining about them, when the classic "scrub" is categorized as someone who complains about tactics they consider overly strong lol
what is the irony? dude is a master at the game. none of us here really get to say anything to him about SF.
lmao delusional SF people always think they somehow get to dictate the attitude about a game.. even to people who they couldn't win a game vs if the person played with one hand.
never heared that definition of a scrub.
A scrub is a beginner. A person who‘s skill is entry level.
@@Taunt61 Ah the irony yes we should all just listen to Mena an have no individual thoughts at all .Sorry but nope
@@Taunt61I think Sajam put it best; Ultimately the pros are just human, they will be salty at points. Specially now because a million $ is on the line; So Mena being 2nd, hits hard, for how consistent he was being. Every loss pros have now, weighs so much because of that million.
@@Taunt61The main problem is that it seems extremely hypocritical of him to use scrubby when it really looks like he got salty over getting second place and when he uses Blanka. I like watching Blanka and don’t necessarily disagree that randomness is a key factor in this game (you have to guess a lot in fighting games and quickly, who knew) but what he wants to get fixed would fuck with his own playstyle with one of his most effective characters.
I agree with adjusting sets to more games, the beauty of fighting games is seeing people adapt. You'll see more of that, and on top of it like Daigo said it wasn't good even during super turbo days. It's wild to think about that rules that applied 20-30 years ago should remain the same now. Every sport changes it's rules over time (NBA:14 second shot clock after an offensive rebound, MLB with pitching) it's time to consider adjusting how many games is played during a set.
Hi. I completely understand that the rules will always change, but lacking life with two combos is not good, maybe in STF7 they will beat you with a combo that eliminates 100% vitality, that is my complaint, life runs out easily and quickly in stf6, about the rules and the way to play is cool
“THIS GAME ASS 🗣️🗣️🗣️”
Also Mena: 🗣️🤫🤫🥶🥶🗣️🗣️🥶🏆🏆🏆🥇🥇🥇🏅⭐️👑
So the game is scrubby, but the high lvl top players are allways the same, and the same that were top lvl at SFV, and thats saying something in itself
Because top SF players can play SF
man, fuck the pros, I just want the game to be FUN. I don't care how hard these basement dwellers shriek over how low the skill ceiling is. Daigo is right, and you can't expect to maintain a healthy population over time if you cannot get new players to stick around.
What more can you say, the man knows what he’s talking about
As a relatively casual player, I love how the game feels and plays. I feel like the game gives you so many more tools to deal with people who abuse scrubby tactics than most other fighting games. I'm sure it's different when you're among the best of the best, but for me, this game is right where it needs to be. That's not to say it can't be improved upon, in fact the new drive rush shortcut helped me out a ton as a stick player. I just think that if changes are going to be made, minor tweaks are all we need.
the same tools used to beat scrub tactics are the scrub tactics youre using the beat them in 6 thats the issue. it isnt fireballs anymore its the entire drive system. the way someone would back up into the corner and only throw fireballs doesnt mean the concept of a fireball is scrubby it can just be a massive low skill player tactic.
@@satsu3098 Could you elaborate, please? I'm not really sure what you mean when you say, "you're using [scurb tactics] to beat them in 6."
Are you saying that using one of the game's fundamental mechanics at all is inherently scrubby? I don't know how else to read that. And I'm not sure what your example of someone throwing fireballs from the corner is supposed to illustrate.
I mean the scrubbiest stuff is the DI no? I'm also casual, don't get to play often so currently bronze/ silver range. People doing DI 3-4 times a round makes me want to break my controller. I simply cannot focus on antiairing, doing my own poking and countering DIs at the same time. It feels so bad sometimes, as if poking with heavy kicks/punches has no place in this game.
@@Taunt61 It's poking with non-cancelable normals that's not great, if they DI a lot, it's useless.
@@Taunt61have you done the DI setting in training mode? it helps me a ton to be able to react to random DI’s and get in a mindset of throwing out moves expecting DI in response. But I do have that feeling of it taking from my focus on antiairs I agree.
I can confirm that SF6 is scrubby because I’m winning more in this game compared to SFV
Same, I got to plat pretty easy in sf6 but in sf5 it was hard to climb up.
I agree. I'm ultra gold/plat in 5, but in 6 I have like 5 or 6 chars in mid plat
i was a super gold guile/sagat main in sf5 but now i have a master guile like wtf. placement matches put me in diamond and i pretty much lost every game until i took a break from guile and switched to ryu. came back to guile and got him to master after getting better at the game. ranked was always based on playrate but i think its just easier with the influx of new players. @chad8813 got multiple characters to plat and ive been a solo guile main my whole time with the game thats how i got him to master. i think i agree with brian that there should be ranks past master
I could only get to silver in 5 and I'm high plat in 6 but I just hated everything about 5 so that probably contributes
@@chad8813 lol are you kidding? plat here is like silver in 5, so youre still trash bro
I think many have conflated the original debate. People responded to Mena as showing examples of all SF titles having scrubby parts to the game. Daigo's response doesn't validate Mena at all. The argument was never is SF6 scrubby or not. It was, is SF6 scrubbier than past SF titles? And Daigo even mentioned how SF2 is scrubby as well. All SF titles have scrubby parts. SF6 is no different.
That's why people lambasted the Mena complaint. Because he has no experience in other SF titles, he thinks only the newest one is srubby.
He is comparing the end of SFV which was a great game to SF6, which let's be honest, is a game for scrubs.
@netherlim if yall waited 4+ years for sf5 you can atleast handle a year of 6 lmaoo
I do think that longer sets are better for competition, gives each player time to adapt to each other and try to counter each others playstyles
long sets are for 1v1
It’s incredible your language as a top player to some of these guys, you are a class act more people should be like this
Daigo is the voice of truth and wisdom in the FGC. Play a FT5 with new players, you lose the first 3 matches, it's 3-0, in almost 9 out of 10 of the scenarios if not all, you will always win 5-3, in the first set, and it will only get worse for them the more sets you play.
I now have a genuine question, if we did have a better tournament system than what we have for today's standards, do you think the players we view as the BEST would stay that way?
They probably would because part of their secret is they put in waaaaaay more time than the rest of us and also spend that time optimally.
Part of the secret to being a top player, from what I've seen is consistency consistency consistency.
Yes, but it would favor a different set of pro players, like Daigo or J Wong, who would do better in longer sets
Yes 2000%. The one who puts in the most time, while ha ing to best potential, will usually get in top. There is a reason why its almoat always the same on top.
Can’t know until we see it in action for some time. I’m sure some players who aren’t pros would benefit a lot if they had one or two more matches worth of time to adapt and calm the tournament nerves.
One match I have in mind is Capcom Cup grand finals, with MenaRD and Zheng.
I think the scrubby sentiment goes hand to hand with how to format is. If a game feels scrubby and you only have 2 very short games to adapt to gimmicks, the "scrubbiness" of the game feels even more prominent than in a longer set.
There's something that needs to also be said. We kinda have to stop taking the words of every pro as gospel personally. Just cause someone is a pro player, it doesn't mean they're immune to error. Something I've also noticed is that some pros criticise this game ONLY because new players with the potential of being a pro are slowly popping up and these criticisms may stem from their fear of being toppled by newer players. For every person that thinks it's "scrubby" there are ten more who think it's good and are slowly climbing up the ranks getting ready to take on the pros. I could be wrong, but just some food for thought.
Edit: This is more so in response to Mena. I actually agree with Brian and some of Diago's points, especially around tournament setups, etc.
You're absolutely right. Calling the game scrubby is a way to discredit people that may actually be better than them because "they won with randomness, not skill". Ironic since everybody thought prior to sf6's release that sf5 players were only good at a "scrubby game" like 5.
yes there are other tournament formats, to give you or anyone an idea: there was a 500-1000 player pinball tournament pre-pandemic called pinburgh over a weekend. it was all match-play (up to 4 players because it's pinball) but at the end of each day (there'd be 5-7 rounds with matches lasting an hour), everyone is sorted by W-L, and divided into divisions. A division, B division, C division. each division would then compete amongst themselves for prizes and trophies on Sunday. B division winners tended to be new to competitive play and went on to greater success after the pressure of competing in the finals of that division. There would be exceptions that certain players would not get sorted into the B/C/D division because they had previously won a tournament, but they would have a steep hill to climb to get their W-L back up to qualify for finals. The other benefit is that you would still get to compete the rest of the weekend, so you wouldn't be done after going 0-2..
I'm a casual scrub as far as SF goes (played some fighting games way back when..) but I've been spectating for a few years. I've been pretty impressed with the FGC and tournaments
It's a translation problem. He said "Ooaji" in the video.
"Ooaji" literally means "Thick Taste". It should probably be translated in English as "Bland". SF6 has flashy wild mechanisms and high damages that can reduce the value of various tactics and techniques within a single round. He's saying the game is a little too wild. So he continued his talk with the ideal number of rounds SF6 tournament should have .
"Scrub", I don't know what the definition of scrub is but there's no way it's the same as "Ooaji".
"Scrub" is just a slang term that has a different definition depending on context. Most commonly it is used to describe something "cheap" or "new player".
In this context, Mena is basically saying that SF6 was designed with new and/or bad players in mind and some of the "scrubby" mechanics (Drive Rush specifically) lower the skill gap in order to encourage newer and less skilled players.
Japan FGC has a specific term for a scrubby game "kusoge" or literally shit game although the term is used in an even more negative way than "scrubby" and is typically used for things like Jojo and FotNS fighters but Guilty Gear and MvC has also been called kusoge so it varies
So within the same same paragraph you're saying he's claiming the game is both "bland" and "too crazy" as if those two descriptors aren't completely opposite each other. Which is it then lmfao
thanks. There's one definitive example in Japanese fighting games.
When Daigo's generation hears "ooaji", most of them will remind of "Samurai Shodown (1993)"/"Samurai Shodown III" with the reason being "Fierce slash is everything". It's not about being a shit game or a cheap game. Also "Street Fighter (1987)" is ooaji and kusoge because it's a mere shoryuken trainer.
@@librarygary1618 When some feature is dominating rest of the game mechanics and the game can't tell which player is really superior. The game is giving seemingly unfair outcome. That's being bland. For SF6 he may be saying damage adjustment and drive rush are too crazy, so in order to make it fair for everyone, SF6 tournament might need more matches.
thank you for this thumbnail
We hear the same thing after the release of every street fighter.
He didn’t even say that. I don’t even know if they have that made up word in Japanese.
The fact people unironically think this is up for debate is laughable. SF6 is the scrubbiest one yet.
Never played SF5?
im kinda new to street fighter can someone point me in the direction of a fighting game that is not considered scrubby? i always see top players crying about these new games
Non scrubby games are a myth. Every fighting game has something that doesn’t abide by footsies/honor codes. Even Footsies, a game which is focused on making the most honest footsies game ever, has a raging demon and you can still random DP all over the place if you want. Wishing for the good old days of non scrubby games is just a talking point that people of all levels refer to when venting. I don’t hold that against anyone though; everyone can get tilted when playing fighting games. Pros have actual money on the line, so I understand that they may be even more prone to being annoyed at a game after losing.
There are some games that are more “honest” than others, but every game has their share of wack stuff. I can’t really point you to a game without scrubby stuff, but generally games with many neutral skip/high damage stuff can come off as more scrubby (not a bad thing in my eyes though). See Guilty Gear or honestly most anime fighters. Street fighter in general *tends* (strong emphasis on tends) to be more honest than a lot of other fighters, which is why it can have the reputation of being sorta the white bread of fighters (a notion I don’t agree with). I never played SF3 3rd strike but from what I’ve seen due to the extremely strong defensive options and general lack of long combos it seems to have a larger focus on “honest” play, but of course still has its share of wack shit.
WWE Smackdown Vs Raw 2011
@@HyziantYeah, a lotta people will point at the new thing, say it’s scrubby compared to the old thing, then someone points to some absolutely filthy garbage they completely ignored because the salt was currently in their eyes.
And yet Menard's results in SF6 have been extremely consistent.
That's a psychological effect resulting from having to adapt, I think. Any change to a game that is fundamental enough to even slightly alter who gets the accolades will invariably upset those who feel they're not getting rewarded the same. I think this is why the stalemate rule in chess hasn't been altered for centuries.
On the surface, it doesn't make sense: you manage to put your opponent in a position wherein their only move is to lose and that is, somehow, a draw. However, knowing this rule has made players develop tactics to save a losing position, so changing it now, would upset a lot of players and forever alter the meta.
Flex sets are always an interesting idea. If one player wins two games in a row, they win the set. Essentially you could run "Bo5" with flex sets to weed out the 0-2 losses, but still have a Bo5 if its competitive. Later bracket (Top 8 or All Finals Matches depending on size and logistics) could be Bo7 flex or no flex (3-0 Elim or it could go to game 6/7)
There are definitely healthy alternatives that can be tweeked for time. It has been discussed in the Melee scene for awhile since games can run long (depending on matchup)
More editorial content? Let's go.
IMO SFV was just as volatile but to get that level of just randomly blowing up you had to be good at single-hit confirming which, let's be fair, a majority of Diamond players couldn't do. In SF6 it's the same thing, but you replace the skill of confirming a 16-17 frame window for just mashing DR in neutral. I think In every other aspect SF6 is more complex than 5 but I do think this one change made the game too scrubby, I'm also salty because It took me sooooo much practice to master single hit confirms for them to basically take them out of the game.
I don't understand how mashing DR in neutral gives you easier hit confirms. Do you mean DR cancels? Those take 3 bars and reduce your scaling, its a trade-off. They can also make the scaling worse or increasing the cost, but your skill is not wasted in the least.
I think the point though is that every game has that. SF4 players missed 1-frame links and the expression that came with it when SF5 launched. New game means new skills that are important.
@@radumotrescu3832 Yeah, not sure what this person meant either.
I love SF6 but the biggest problem I have with this game and why I agree with Mena is that the game rewards players bad habits/bad decisions too often. Because of the volatile nature of the game, I could make a couple of mistakes because of human error and I am immediately in a big disadvantage during the round. Small things like how the DI cancel window is very short leading to inputs getting stuffed even though I physically reacted on time and drive rush in neutral really contribute to being at that disadvantage. Yes, I believe the better player will win almost all the time in this game, but it is so frustrating to deal with as someone who has legacy experience with SF but is not a top level player and doesn't have much tournament experience. I understand that self improvement and patience goes a long way in defeating players, but the fact that I have a better understanding of the game compared to players that I would consider lower level than me and I still get in tight situations angers me.
“You won’t get a consistent result with a FT2 or FT3” even as someone who doesn’t really step in this realm, I play storm and we do FT10s. It’s a really good way to showcase who’s the better player.
Maybe there is a way to make it so once you hit top 64 or later all sets start becoming FT3 or FT5 even.
I personally think sets online in SF6 should be FT3 though I have lost 2-0 in casuals to many people just to win the set 5-2 and have them quit. SF6 game snowballs very fast from not expecting a DI in a situation you have never seen or not checking a DR.
I know a lot of the FGC doesnt like the smash scene, but why havent they transitioned to a ft2 for stuff like pools and early bracket and then switch to ft3 or ft5 for later in the bracket as higher seeded players start to meet each other.
We've been doing that. But FT2 is too fast for SF6 and the transition to FT3 is going on slowly rn
Punk seems to anticipate and check DR pretty easily. But we ain't all Punk lmao.
I'm working on it guys. I promise I have something in the works that will be a game changer for the fgc and tournaments
The days of throwing a fireball and someone jumping at you means instant death is old and honestly it never was good. It was suggestively good back then because that's the only thing that was available back then as far as developers goes. I think people need to stop comparing different games and lean off the copium so that they can be open to new experiences and grow from there.
I've never played sf4, sf5 was my favorite game and now I understand what everyone was complaining about that loved sf4. I'm having fun with the game, but the skill transition in terms of what I had gotten good at is frustrating. I realize every new game is a total experiment, so I can't hate capcom for trying... But I have to admit I miss sfv 😢...
what? you miss sf5? the 7 year old game that you had time to get good at????
and you dont vibe with the brand new game with new mechanics & it whooping ur butt?? WOW! who would have thought
@@Mega0003000 Don't understand the point of this comment. This person is just expressing his personal experience.
@@ekwensu8797The wording was mad aggressive for no reason (kinda like Mena) but I can kinda understand the “The game’s still fresh, give it time” message.
This is a misunderstanding imho.
It's just a culture gap, let me try to elaborate:
I studied japanese for quite sometime and the translation is fine.
I know it sounds odd for us, we grew up with individual values like freedom and expressing ourselves as the utmost important things, but they grew up being taught respect for others and harmony with society. For them it's society's health > personal views. So they try to be nice and respectable of people's views, they can and will say "Yes" meaning "No" or "Agree" but disagreeing on the inside, in order to preserve the status quo.
You will rarely find what a japanese person truly thinks if you put out an opinion first!
Even in japanese day to day language they use alot of expressions like と思う(I think) and かも (maybe) at the end of their phrases to not sound like they are confronting you on a topic.
Their culture is very different so I don't think we should judge him based on ours.
What my japanese friends used to do was repeating what I said and then adding a little twist or something positive about it, just like Daigo did poiting out that it's better for beginners. That probably is a subtle sign that he doesn't fully agree with it.
People don't give Mena the respect he deserves because he has always come off as abrasive. I feel those same sentiments have been shared toward a lot of the DR players, and I think it's more of a cultural misunderstanding that has just never been addressed. DR has a whole hype crew and carry a lot of excitement. People misread that excitement and think they're being disrespectful, but that's just them. These dudes broke into the scene as underdogs and proved they hang at the top. They've got a reason to be proud about that.
The underlying problem is that the pro fgc has a lot of terrible egos that dislike anything that doesn't cater to them winning money. I mean the brackets are already tailored to give certain players the best chance to make top 8 because of viewership and money. Why not just license pro players and limit events to licensed only? It is the direction the fgc needs to go if it wants to grow in viewership. The out of control egos only hurt its legitimacy.
Because they already tried the license thing, but the FGC only labs in-game not real life and there was a massive outcry
A good compromise between open bracket and invitational is to have an open event with a separate qualifier event. Probably doesn't make sense for majors which'd have lots of international players travelling over, but you could have something like e.g. the USA Championship that's open to US residents with an online qualification phase and then a longer format offline event at the end of it.
I think it would be interesting if more tournaments did round robin pools similar to the World Cup/TWT Finals (except not putting every single game on stream like TWT did… everyone seemed to complain about how that impacted the schedule iirc). It solves one of my biggest complaints with open bracket tournaments, which is going 0-2 and then having nothing to do, while not being quite as punishing on the schedule as a full round robin tournament is. Unsure how well that'd scale for something as ludicrously big as Evo, but I definitely think a lot of majors/large monthlies/online tournaments (especially online tournaments) could be good candidates for this sorta format. I remember East London Fighters did this for their Tekken PS4 Lockdown Special and it was a lot of fun.
For medium-sized events, it could also be interesting to run Swiss, but that does suffer from not being so good for spectators. This could also be a good format for online tournaments potentially, as it gives the TOs more pairings to pull from to put on stream instead of having one player feature four or five times because they got deep into the bracket.
I have started 0-4 in random FT10s and still come out on top in SF6. The opposite has also occurred if i'm the one who starts out with a big lead. Longer sets really expose you, and typically by the 7th match, i'm certain where i am with someone around my skill level.
Scrubby or not, glad to see us go back to watching daigo content together
Imagine playing blanka and still calling the game scrubby.
Hey bruh blanka is a fair and honest gentleman's character.
Blanka is less scrubby than a charcter like Ken.
@@xaviervega468just DI the dragonlash brother it's not that hard
Blanks is not scrubby what so ever Lil bro
@@R3alcheezy15they think the blanka they play in bronze, is how mena plays
To put it plainly, "ooaji" means that the damage is too high.
Daigo agreed because scrubby is translated as "ooaji"
I'm Japanese so I don't know what scrubby means
I think he means, beginners and players with lower skill level can be very strong because of the game's design. For this reason, he says the game is "scrubby."
@@pteranodon6612 thanks i understand
My bet is that inside of a year we’re going to start running into perfect parry gods that will really screw with everybody’s perception of how the game can be played defensively. Two frames is a small window, but not too small for pros.
Definitely needs to spread awareness to bring FT3 to SF6's important tournament matches and bring more organizers in to make a "ladder" of sorts to allow everyone a chance to really step up. If there's one game I can think of that allows the FGC to evolve, it's SF6 and it's already laid right there, ready to be utilized.
They should do it like other Opens like tennis or golf. The established pros are seeded and don't have to play in. The masses have to qualify through the open process, and the tournament you actually watch is only top 256 or something.
But what is a pro player ? Only those sponsored ? There should be a ranking and take the best 16 or 32 and then let people qualify. That's what Capcom Europe done last year for Street Fighter League Europe
I think one important topic that wasn't brought up here is the value of this intended volatility. You know how the crowd/chat goes nuts when a Johnny Donuts beats a Daigo. Or when there was a VT comeback even though SFV was basically designed for that.
I understand that these are factors mostly controlled by the game developers and we're talking about tournament organization here, but, like you said one of the pillars of the tournaments is entertainment itself.
I completely agree that the current formats are bad for competitivity integrity, but how important that really is for entertainment?
When sf6 first came out, it was the ultimate fighting game… now it’s scurby. There is no multiplayer game on earth that has came out in this shity social media era that hasn’t been complained about
My thoughts exactly. The first two weeks this game was out all I saw was "STREET FIGHTER IS BACK BABY" and slowly but surely over the last month, half of every twitch chat and UA-cam comment section has turned to complaints about basically every single mechanic in the game.
First people cried about drive impact being too strong, and now everyone and their mother is crying about drive rush because more people are actually learning how to use it because of the update.
Facts.
I think people clowned on Mena cuz it was obvious he made a salt tweet after he lost, which is scrubby. You can be the best player on earth and still say scrub shit (Leffen).
I also think Daigo and co will always say longer, more consistent formats are better, because they have stake in the game. Anything that increases their chances to win is something they'd want. It's a concession to them that big tournaments are open brackets because pro players would rather not get caught out and put in losers vs Fudgesicle420's random ass Ken playing at 10 in the morning, but it's like that because it pleases the most people.
Does not make his statement any less true though....
It kinda sucks to say, but open-bracket tournaments where everybody, pros and "Johnny Donuts" alike, are all in the same brackets, is the main reason I ever go to events. I feel like that is a cool unique thing about the FGC, and if that went away, that would eliminate most of my interest in going to big events.
But I recognize my opinion probably doesn't carry any water on the subject. I understand the argument about changing formats for more competitive integrity, but if it comes at the expense of big open bracket tournaments as they are today, then I just personally would probably lose interest.
That isn't true. The fgc more than any esport thrives on every individual player. You don't have massive organizations backing your events like Riot or Intel for example.
For you, open-bracket tournaments are the main reason to go. For me, they are the reason why I stopped watching tournaments. I do agree that open-bracket tournaments should exist, but at the top level I much prefer having tournaments with less players and longer matches. Richard Lewis hit the nail on the head imho: The professional side (players, on-screen talents, production crew,...) can't grow, because Johnny Donuts wants to be in the same bracket as Daigo.
@@Corran123Yeah, like I said, I get it. I understand why the format would change to better suit pro players. I just personally am not that interested in it.
I already don't watch or pay attention to invitationals for this reason.
Is what it is. I wish all the success in the world to everyone, however they want to do it.
@@Corran123 the problem is that if that were the case, you would have no tournaments to watch regardless. In terms of esports, FGC is a poverty sport. Most tournaments are funded by the FGC community, so without them, you wouldn't even have a tournament to watch.
The reason for this is really simple too, the FGC as a whole is considered one sport, unlike other genres where each game, not the entire genre is considered a sport. This makes it easier for large companies that host tournies to firstly get permission to host tournaments for said game, get venues, secure sponsorships, and create meaningful tourney series and leagues much like the sport ecosystem riot has created, or circuits like Apex's ALGS.
While I understand that most may disagree, one viable solution to the issue of determining the number of matches played could be the implementation of online tournaments. However, it's important to acknowledge that this solution may just substitute one issue with another.
They tried it a couple of times during the pandemic but the pro players still find ways to complain
The problem is people are taking his statement personally. It’s like they feel personally attacked, because they enjoy the game. So in turn, they attack him as a person. Just read this comment section. For the record, I really enjoy both DI, and DR, but it’s ok if Mena disagrees
Brian, this is a great video. You have the Daigo clip but really make it yours with further discussion. Keep hustling man.
Mena is my personal hero for validating the opinions of scrubs everywhere, including myself, but the fact that people still disregard his thoughts just goes to show you that people will never, ever stop moving the goalposts on you. You will never be good enough at the game to express negative opinions about it on Twitter without people telling you that you just need to stop whining.
Idk man getting second place and then taking it to Twitter sounds like whining to me. You can have your opinions as a pro but your opinions isn't gospel, tons of pros have had negative opinions about other older sf games, doesn't make those opinions gospel either. Maybe understand that Mena is also a human and think for your self instead of just dick riding all dya
The amount of players you run into in plat and diamond who clearly don't really know what they are doing is testament to the 'scrubbiness' of SF6. Totally agree on the longer sets being needed though but I don't think that fits into Capcom's plan.
Fighting game developers are sadly moving in this direction of trying to level the playing field by adding easier ways to make big tempo swings. I call it the Mario Kart rubber band flow.
- easy high damage
- lax controls
- easily exploitative mechanics
- easy tempo loss/gain
Guilty Gear Strive is still guilty of this after many patches.
You *have* to fix these things. More matches doesn't change the competitive integrity of the game. That in most cases just adds more random/scrubby matches to an already long event. The quality of the matches doesn't necessarily improve just because there's more of them. Street Fighter 2 Turbo is a bad example. Capcom was still learning about balance and were stuck with not being able to patch games at that period of time.
Holding player's hands and dancing around the problems with a band-aid solution (more matches) *will* hurt the competitive circle.
They better not let this "scrubby" label hang around for long.
Daigo’s favourite Street Fighter is a game where Round 1 starts with completely fully stocked Super meter and where you can lose the entire match because you jumped or threw a fireball at 99 seconds. GOAT yes, someone who should be considered a taste maker as to what makes a solid game? You be the judge.
his favorite is alpha 3
Impressive commentary - thank you!
@Brian_F, is there an avenue available for people to discuss fighting game theory online without Twitter? I think that is the core of all these problems.
Why brush off the current top players comments, albeit relatively new, and immediately accept whatever daigo says? I get hes the beast and good, but when was the last time this guy even made top 8? The game is easily accessible and i think thats where the problem lies. Making something too accessible alienates your players who want something more difficult and requires time and effort.
Love Daigo’s answer! DR lets players be aggressive and makes the games quicker, so ft3 sets shouldn’t be a problem. I come from smash where a ft2 set on average takes 10-12 minutes and we’ve made the logistics work.
The jab jab soft knock or hard knockdown is actually insane.
You should have to link into a medium at least.
Personally, I think things like DI and DR needs to be tweaked a bit. In what ways, I'm not sure I articulate well in a UA-cam comment. At the very least, you shouldn't be able to mash jab twice on someone doing DI, hit them twice, and then mash DI in response. I also think it might be best to make it so you can't DR cancel into DI, but that might be too far.
Unrelated to DI and DR, but apparently throw techs are kind of broken right now. If you accidentally do a motion before the tech, you won't tech.
Honestly the more I play SF6 the more I feel like its just Guilty Gear Strive with less options. I know they’re two almost completely different games but honestly the drive cancel system reminds me of Roman Cancel but with just less flexibility to use it. I could even argue Drive rush is similar to fast RC forward cancels. This isn’t my first Street fighter but it’s definitely the one I’ve put the most time into and in my opinion the game is kinda bland to play/watch and Im not a huge fan of the neutral play at all in this game
Translating what Mena said to what Daigo said is like going from a lunch meat sandwich to a Tomahawk steak. Great video btw nice way of getting to your point.
Lmao bruh
What do you mean? Daigo is just a guy, he's not any smarter than Mena.
Modern controls were an absolute game changer for me.
I’ve loved fighting games forever, but separating the input issues from actually fighting let me finally enjoy the game.
Modern controls were an absolute crutch for me* learn how to play the game as its intended and not have to rely on modern controls that were implemented for brain dead monkeys who dont understand what a Z motion is or how to use a charge character
I'm late to the party, but Daigo was asked if SF6 is 大味, which means "bland", "boring", "lacking excitement".
Not at all similar to the English "scrubby".
do not think "agressiveness" is the same as scrubby. guilty gear since forever promotes agression in all it's mechanics (burst fills faster when you attack, you gain meter walking forward and attacking, RISC, negative penalty, etc). I'm not bringing up strive specifically because someone will call it scrubby, which I agree, but positive bonus despite being something that resets both players to neutral, it also gives positive bonus, which you can get by breaking the wall and by simply being agressive.
confirms are difficult for new players, drive rush makes that, and offense overall way easier. Feels like the skill gap is lessened in this game therefore needing longer formats for consistent results. So yeah its scrubby but not a bad thing. its fun!
I dont lille the new system. The game would be more fun witouth it imo. But it is what it is.
@@celuiquipeut6527How would the game be more fun without it? Having just no combos or player expression with drive meter usage because it was explicitly built around it.
@@Shirattobro is over 75
also skill gap isn't lessened because of drive gauges because everyone has it, the pros make way better use of it so essentially it makes it higher