Thank you for your well presented video. I had never heard of Dyneema before today when someone asked about it on Cruisers Forum. I am amazed. Love the concept. 15x stronger than steel, 1/5 the weight. 30 years as a rigger and charter captain but retired since 2000, so totally out of the loop on new innovations. But still sailing...:)
I have an old steel ketch that still has lignum vitae deadeyes and as I re-rig, I can see your system being very helpful. I have struggled with whether to go with turnbuckles or not, but you have made me re-assess. It seems that the blend of traditional and modern materials may be appropriate. Thank you!
Great video. I was just sailing in 40 kt winds. the wind was so hard that the lee side spreader actually popped out of its housing and was lost. We didn't know this until we came about and nearly broke the mast. I have a 30 ft C & C. When we came about we noticed that the top of the mast was bent nearly 4 feet off center at the top. We quickly did a straight downwind sail to take the pressure off the mast, dropped the sails and connected the main sheet halyard to the port side rail to stabilize the mast. After we assessed the problem we realized that the set setscrew that held the port spreader failed, and the spreader got yanked out of its housing. Design not so good. A learning experience. Thanks again. Steve.
This is where dyneema is better IMO. It has less points of failure. As a climber, I use lots of different cordage and one thing we ALWAYS do is plan in redundancy. Now since dyneema is relatively cheap it might be possible to make a shroud that has 2 parallel dyneema cords that are tensioned appropriately. If one gets severed the other can take the load. This might be an overkill though as dyneema is stranded. But I’d love to hear thoughts on this. Wind will likely whistle through the 2 strands though !! My thinking is that you might be able to shrink the diameter down of the original by 1mm and then double it up. This would provide redundancy and make it cheaper (prices is a square law of diameter).
Very well done video. I think this synthetic rigging thing is going to blow up (as it should) for offshore sailors. Sailing and seaman/womanship is at its core about self sufficiency and I can tell you in the western Caribbean we might as well be on Mars when it comes to supplies. A few (hundred) feet of Dyneema has quickly jumped to the top of the 'oh shit' list. Sub'd and look forward to more videos!
I think the other great thing about synthetic rigging is it’s easy to store on your boat and you can also use it as haulage line in an emergency. What’s not to like ?
Super clear explenation and instructions. I am about to rig my own boat. Could not choose between steel and dyneema until now. You broke it down beautifully. Thank you from the Netherlands!
Definitely looking into that. Thank you. I replace my life lines with dynema almost ten years ago. I though it would be a good first test. I figured it would last about first years but it’s still going strong. Very happy with that.
Great video, I'm new to sailing and this concept is right up my street. I love that it's doable for anyone with all those extra benefits including self checking for wear.
Loved the synthetic rigging work. You know one the coolest things to do in the Bahamas is right at Nassau. Atlantis has a marina, and for about 4.50/ft the entire crew gets a place to stay overnight, and free admission to the Atlantis water park. Just FYI! The waterpark and hotel room are normally like 1000 per person or something silly. Cheers!!
You are at the 8 year mark. How's the rigging holding up? I've just bought some Dyneema to use on a small boat thanks to seeing some of your videos on splicing it.
I’d like to replace our SS rigging with dyneema. A bit of a choice to eliminate roller furling altogether. Huge expense of multiple headsails. Too bad there isn’t a hardened, teflon (?) sleeve that will absolutely eliminate chafe and permit maintaining roller furler.
Hi Herby Many thanks for this simple and instructive video. I’m on the van to purchase an Amel Maramu 48 which need new rigging and after seeing your’s and Zingaro’s video, synthetic rigging is what I’ll choose. One question I have are related to the tension which must be achieved: did you use any measuring tool and which one? Wish you both fair winds and safe sailing
I set the tension “by feel”. Basically you want the shrouds tight enough that the leeward stays go slack but not loose. If they go loose, you need to tighten them. If they stay tight, you need to loosen them.
Very well done video. Will email you as this format isn't overly conducive to more in-depth discussion. Thanks for taking the time to put this out there and for contributing to the sailing community.
Can you use a rigging tension gauge like the loos? In a hi performance trimaran I raced on 20 years ago we had Kevlar/technora stays with shrink tape/tube uv protection , not needed with dyneema/spectra but it could be useful for chafe? The dyneema splices don’t appear to hold very tight on the SS thimbles. Is their anyway to improve that . I have used a adjustable technora back stay for years but for quick adjustability for different wind condition ( I race) means I would want to use turnbuckles I think. Definitively a flexible system for maintenance in far flung places! Cheers warren
You certainly could slip a shrink tube over the stay to help with chafe protection. The eye splices are a little loose to facilitate thimble replacement and because the thimble is not present when the splice is made, making it hard to make it snug enough without making the eye too snug. To tighten it up, you can tie a seizing knot at the throat.
Thanks for your video. You were mentioned by Sailing Zingaro, so I needed to see your video. I see that my question of whether you can use a Loos Tension Gauge on Synthetic Dyneema has already been answered!!! Now, I need to check out your blog...Others also suggest buying Brian Toss's book,"The Rigger's Apprentice" --- I found that reference by watching Project Atticus's videos on how to do Sta Lok rigging and calculations...I'm retired and planning for my first boat, an Alberg 30...
Alberg 30s are great boats! The riggers apprentice a great book as well for understanding rigging. If you rerig your “soon to be new to you” Alberg with synthetic, expect it to cost around $800 total for all the materials involved. Zingaro has a very pretty looking system. I like how he color coded the port and starboard components :) Let me know if you have any questions as you go!
A couple of observations Herb regarding the rigging as I have seen it on your boat: 1. Your spliced loops look very long? They should be very short - right down onto the thimble. No need to serve them if they are tight and remain there under tension. 2. The order you mentioned to tension stays is a bit concerning. The order I use is different. It is (on main mast at least) Aft Lowers Fwd Lowers Cap shrouds The reason for this, is due to tensioning forestays correctly. Like you, we have a babystay / inner forestay with a relatively large stay sail. Tension the aft lower first, brings your inner forestay into tension, and also gives the correct fore and aft position of the mast itself. Tension the fwd lower brings balance to the aft lower tension, giving a two triangulations that can provide adjustment to the mast position / inner forestay tension. The cap shrouds should always be tensioned last, as it has little if any, effect on the forestay tensions, and can lead to improper mast bend and / or angle if done first. The order later druing tuning is exactly the same.
1. The loops need the length to have enough tail buried. Ideally it would be tiny, but then the splice would slip apart. 2. They both get the job done, but if you start top down, then you start with the mast centered amidships. Getting it done and going sailing is all that matters!
Ran into you channel through watching, It's Time To Rebuild the Watermaker!! - (MJ Sailing - Ep 103), you guys were fantastic inviting others to join you on a rainy day. On that note I am so glad I found your channel Just in this video you have shared so much knowledge and Hereby is a rope handling master by all rights. please keep sharing.
Really interesting video, even for a novice sailor who doesn't understand any of the knot references. But as is the case with many of these sailing videos, nobody says anything about the relative costs -- both materials and, if you don't do it yourself, the install. Maybe it's in the comments below, but who wants to search them all.
I did a blog post a few years ago on just this very topic. Check it out with the link below: www.riggingdoctor.com/life-aboard/2016/11/7/cost-of-conversion?rq=synthetic%20rigging%20conversion
I can't wait to get through 8 feet of snow to get to my boat so I can change my rigging to synthetic. I got about 4 kilometres of synthetic rope of various sizes and colours. I'm going to go crazy with it. Thanks for all the nice closeups and tips that will help me immensely . What are those frictionless eyes made from? Some special high density polymer ? or what ? Can they be printed with Graphite ink ? SS Eyes are so dam expensive here.Cheers
They are just plain old stainless steel eyes from West Marine. The big ones cost around $14 each, the smaller ones were only a few dollars. You can use any polished metal surface in there, the only goals are to reduce friction and withstand thousands of crushing pounds. If you have any questions along the way, feel free to email me and I can get back to you with detail photos of any parts you have questions with.
I really wanted to use them but I needed 7 holes for the cap shrouds and that would be a very large piece of wood! The Dyneema deadeyes only cost $24 to make, far less than it would have cost to buy the blocks of wood (but it would have been so salty looking)!
When you spliced your stays, did you need to pre-tension the stays to set the splice? I'm reading where I might need to apply 2k lbs or more to the stay to 'set the splice' before using. What's your experience with this? Also, any tips on getting around t-ball fittings?
This is a post about the cost of conversion but it was on a bot with T-balls so it goes over all the added pets needed to make it work on the mast side of the stay. As for setting the splice, you don’t have to but it will save A LOT of time. If you don’t, you will be taking creep out of the line for about a month. If you set the splice, it becomes just a few weeks and very minor during that time. To set splices, I attach the stay to a tree and the other end to an old F150, then I drive away from the tree slowly until the stay goes tight and the truck stops. I measure on the ground where the tires meet the ground and do this until the tires stop advancing. Then I leave the truck in neutral on a hill held up by the stay and tree. I leave it like this overnight and come the next day it’s pretty much done creeping.
Hello guys!, thanks a lot for this informative video! (I understand its 3 years old by now btw). Two questions: 1. you mention you have to service the spreaders protection; so..How often do you service the dyneema protection in the spreaders?. The second question: It is my understanding that Dyneema gets degraded with the sun light; how do you guys deal with this; would it make sense to cover somehow the rigging to protect it from UV lighting?. Again, many many thanks! :D
Hello! While it’s an older video, it all still holds true. Service is when you wrap another line tightly around the one doing the work. www.riggingdoctor.com/life-aboard/2015/9/1/line-service I haven’t had to do anything in those areas and we’re entering the 7th year now! As for UV, yes and no. The outer 0.1μm gets destroyed and protects the rest of the line, so there is no loss in line strength and it’s easier to inspect without a cover hiding it.
TFS well presented and I think most can understand what your doing with the rigging. One question I have is can you use a self furling jib on the forestays or will it abrade the dyneema. The way your setup to handle lines from the cockpit would lend itself to having self furling on both jibs. I do thing the weigh loss with the dyneema is a good way to lower your center of gravity.
The frapping knot holds everything in place and the tails then become ornamental. They are tied over the frapping knot to protect and conceal it, but that knot knot is strictly ornamental.
Only just found this, REALLY interesting stuff. I would like to know how this may or may not affect your Insurance. We all know insurance companies get a bit anal about SS rigging and the 10 year rule of thumb. I'd be interested to know if insurance companies would be capable of recognising or at least understanding the principles and properties of the Dyneema rig in order to insure the vessel.
Fantastic informative video. We've had some rod rigging repairs carried for the reasons you mentioned. didn't even consider Dyneema.. We will next time, if only for the weight saving. Have you ever had Dyneema shrouds fail catastrophically. What is the breaking strain compared to stainless steel and rod rigging. Very good review, well done.
I have never had a catastrophic failure with dyneema. Off of Hatteras, our anchor chafed on the headstay deadeye and sawed through a few of the strands. We knew it was crippled and kept the loads to a minimum on it. I consider that chafed headstay a failure because we couldn't use it like normal, but the stay never broke and nothing fell down, so I also consider the whole situation a success. Chafe is very easy to spot as the line looks visibly worn and fuzzy, whereas steel has a microscopic hairline fracture. Thanks for watching and let me know if you ever have any questions in the future! P.S. We will be doing a video soon on spotting and repairing failing dyneema. One of our lifelines is in need of some work and we will be covering the whole process. Be sure to subscribe so that you are notified as soon as it's uploaded.
the german yachtmagazin palstek.de had a nice article on the topic dynema rigging. You might get big problems with the peak loads at the points where you fix the dynema to the boat. the 7x19 stainless wires usually used have a lot of strech when there comes some power to the boat. You would never ty your boat to the dock with dynema because you might lose your clamps when some heavy swell will move the boat. you will use some polyester with 10 -30 % stretch to cut of the peak load. the palstek rigg doctors recommend to strenght the points of fixation the dynema a lot !!!
What I would be interested in, is a hybrid standing rigging. Instead of the stainless cables, I want synthetic but still use the stainless turnbuckles and such. I think that is an interesting alternative that could catch on in Germany. Although our boat is in Greece
@@RiggingDoctor So I want to ask here if I understand it right. I could use turnbuckles and just Möbius spliced eyes in the Dyneema line? You do the same in your forestay right? Want to buy my first boat next year and start sailing.
Is there any particular reason you don't use turnbuckles so the tension can be adjusted quickly and easily with any change in temperature? Tensioning the rigging using the winches and frapping knots seem very time consuming.
Turnbuckles would be nice, but we needed 11 of them and for our size, they cost around $100 each. To save on the cost, we went with deadeyes which cost about $24 in materials.
I buy mine at West Marine. The rope you want is New England Ropes STS-HSR 3/8” or 9mm. Buying it by the spool gives you a good discount and if you are buying in bulk, you can usually negotiate a better price. Ask them about giving you “port supply price” on the spool since it’s a bulk sale. Other option is to wait for them to have their sales (Labor Day and Memorial Day are the two big sales where the discount is better than what I would pay with my Port Supply discount). It’s currently 7 years old and 15,000nm sailed on it, and it’s still going strong. Steel rigging needs to be replaced every 10 years or 10,000nm, so in that sense we would be halfway through our second rig (if we were steel) but instead we are still sailing strong!
Just subscribed after learning a great deal from you over the years. Curious to know if there is any difference in the sound a dyneema rig makes? I've noticed in other videos something of an aeolian harp effect. Have you experienced anything like this?
I have only had this happen when I didn’t have a sail bent onto the headstay. It was a rather strange sound but as soon as I had the sail on it, that seemed to be enough dampening to hush the whole rig.
What are your thoughts on New England Ropes, 7mm 'heat-set' dyneema for the Standing rigging on an Alberg 30? That was suggested to me by Kraken Structures, after I saw them mentioned on Sailing Zingaro. I am still boat searching and exploring ideas...Have to get caught up on your 'regen' videos, too...
That would work great. I used 9mm here for a 45 foot boat. The Alberg has a lot lower load on the rigging, having less ballast and a much shorter mast. They also make excellent sailboats. Let me know if you have any questions about the conversion, I would be happy to help as a reference.
I love your videos and this one is especially helpful. I'm heading back to our boat next month, after 5 years away, to replace my rigging to dynema and swap the diesel to electric. I wanted to head down there (guaymas, mx) with the dynema I will need with me. Do you know I good source, you would recommend. And what sizes would you suggest? My boat is a Cal Cruising 36. I'm not sure if I will reuse the current turnbuckles.
Could you skip the toggles and go directly into the tangs? If so it would save even more weight at the top of the mast where it has the most effect on heeling. Cons?
Yes, but the tangs for the lowers are close together and the eyes would rub. The toggle simply flips the eye by 90*. The toggles at the top are not necessary but they looked a little less “chafey” than the tang of the eye were to ever rub on it. In steel rigging, the toggles are mandatory because they provide a universal joint at the end and greatly reduce the incidence of stress fractures in the end fittings and wires. Dyneema won’t fracture, so it’s more focused on space. 1/2 a pound at the top of the mast is about 25 foot pounds on a 50 foot mast, so small numbers can make big differences! Definitely try to use the least amount of parts that will safely accomplish the task at hand.
So it's no good in the winter unless you somehow make it work.... what is the UV rating? In another video it shows folks pulling the line with one end tied to a tree the other to their truck to pull the tension or stretch the line before hanging it. Interesting concept the synthetics.... still some kinks to work out.
Yep, winter stretch is pretty intense. The Rigging goes slack in the cold and comes back to tension in the spring. If it’s too cold for the Rigging it’s too cold for me! UV resistance is fine, DSM has found no detrimental effects of UV exposure to uncovered Dyneema. The truck and tree method was me on the blog, also a few of our early videos (I don’t know if those early videos are still public though)
Sta-lok as well. For steel rigging, compression fittings, like Norseman and Sta-lok are the best. They give you the strength of steel but don’t have any of the stress hardening of swage fittings.
This is what I used and I got it from West Marine: www.westmarine.com/new-england-ropes-dyneema-anti-chafing-sleeves-P002_071_006_503.html?queryID=347cda62b8c29396fae99892aa9a731f&objectID=9059353&indexName=production_na01_westmarine_demandware_net__WestMarine__products__en_US
7:01 a Moebius Brummel (sp?) eyesplice? Intriguing. Wold love to see you do a how-to video on your various unusual splices, knots, etc. And, if may ask, you're a pretty young guy...where did you learn all this, and how long have you been sailing?
Stay tuned, soon we’re going to be putting out a daily video for a week on just this topic! I learned some of the splices from reading various books and then I invented the splice to make the deadeye and the knot to tie off the lashings. So far the rigging is 5 years old and still going strong with over 10,000 miles on it! 🙂
Ok it’s now 2022 and the rigging on your boat is 7 years old. Have you had to repair any of the standing rigging and is it still in use with no problems tho king about doing this with my little sailboat and would definitely like your input Love the vids keep it up
It’s still going strong! Budget wise, deadeyes are cheapest, but if you can afford it turnbuckles with deadeyes will make your life easier. We haven’t had to replace any synthetic stays but we did have to replace our inner forestay (which was still steel) with Dyneema back in 2020. All the other stays are still from 2015 :)
Interesting to hear about the negative thermal expansion coefficient. Curious, I just looked up the thermal expansion coefficient and it's: -12 10-6 per K. Over 15M (50 ft) that's 0.18 mm (0.0006") per K. Over 0-30 Celcius (32-86F) that's 5.4 mm (0.018"). Was your rigging pre-stretched dyneema where they stretch it under load and heat at the same time? The creep rate may be a bigger factor, it'd be interesting to know how much it stretches over it's lifetime with such dynamic loads on a sail boat. Was part of the reason you didn't choose turnbuckles because of the amount of creep over time?
We sized the stays with creep in mind, selecting a size that is significantly stronger than necessary for the work it will do, but so that it is never truly taxed and begin creeping. In the winter, the headstay will go so slack that I can actually pull it down about a 1/4" by hand! Luckily it all goes right back in the spring. As for the deadeyes: turnbuckles for our size of boat cost about $100 each. When you need 11 of them, the cost becomes a concern. Deadeyes cost me about $24 in materials, making the whole process affordable. The rope I used for everything but the backstays is Heat Set Dyneema, as it is stronger and has less creep (less than an inch). The backstays are regular Dyneema and they creeped about 6 feet before they settled in.
ua-cam.com/video/MctpeFJ4AuY/v-deo.html This one shows the whole installation and all the parts involved so you can get a feel for what is happening here.
Would you be able to mix/match synthentic with steel standing rigging? For example, replacing the lowers with synthetic, while leaving the uppers as stainless. Or replacing the shrouds with synthetic and the fore/aft stays with stainless? I replaced my lowers last year, but the uppers were swaged in place and I couldn't take them off without cutting them. I would consider replacing the uppers with synthetic. My forestay requires a metal stay for the roller furling that is presently in place, so I probably would stay with the same. But my aft stay could be easily replaced with a system like you mentioned. Is it fine to mix/match or are there some other considerations that I should know about?
The headstay and backstay can mix and match, but shrouds should all be one type. Synthetic and steel expand differently as temperatures change. Your mast will only be in tune if it is the temperature you set it at. This means you would need to tune the Rigging every time you went out because of temperature changes. If they are all steel or all synthetic, then they will all change the same with temperature and the mast will remain in tune.
@@RiggingDoctor Thanks! I'll consider it as an option! I think it will be a good match for my Contessa 26. As boats get larger, are there limits to when synthetic stops being appropriate? Is it the same considerations for a small boat like mine vs, say a 45' steel sailboat vs something larger like a 52' Amel vs a 60' super yacht?
Jordan Harkness everything just gets bigger and more expensive. On your contessa, this will work great. The reduction of weight aloft will make her more stable and even more stout of a little circumnavigator! A friend of mine has a contessa 26 and they are solid and sea worthy!
Synthetic standing rigging? maybe next time, probably next time. Your system of using lashings and deadeyes for tensioning is pretty darned clever. On the one hand, it is all rope, all repairable, no metal fatigue or closed-cell corrosion to worry about, on the other hand your system is so onerous to use in practice that you preferer to sail around in cold weather with your standing rigging improperly tensioned. I'm not sure I'm willing to go there. I would want a system where if a front moves through mid Atlantic that drops the temperature 20-30 degrees, that in fifteen minutes I can go around the boat and for every 10 degrees of temperature drop I can turn each turnbuckle X-number or turns and the tension will be right - or something like that. Something dead easy and dead simple. I just don't see that working with a deadeye system - there are just too many layers in the way of making a necessary adjustment. Really love that back-stay tensioner though. That is trick!
I learned rigging a few years back and invented a knot and a splice that make it possible to rig and tension with dyneema without turnbuckles. I started a rigging company and worked part time as a rigger for a few years before we went cruising (main job is dentistry). Now I'm cruising and simultaneously testing out my system. Problems and issues that arise are all listed on the blog as well as methods to correct them. For more information on synthetic rigging and how to fabricate it yourself, please check out the website www.riggingdoctor.com and search "synthetic standing rigging" in the search bar on the top right corner.
Great video very informative. I notice you use "standard" Thimbles on your rigging, my question is was this a purely economic choice or would you have chosen the cast polished thimbles given the choice thanks
It was based on cost. The regular thimbles cost me $1.50 each where a sailmakers thimble cost me $12 each. The regular thimbles crush down until the ends meet, then they stop closing. They work well unless they are hit hard from the side and cause the ends to slip next to each other. Under the tension they hold, the thimble buckles and crushes, then needs to be replaced. A sailmakers thimble would be far stronger and safer, but cost significantly more where I was when I made the rigging.
@@RiggingDoctor thanks for the reply I am considering all this stuff in preparation for purchasing my first big boat at 1.50 i see the attraction my concern is risk of chafing but at that price would be easy to swap them out if they show signs of deformation
I use forged thimbles on my heat set dyneema rigged F 31. Overkill probably, but they're smooth and strong and cost is reasonable. Defender industries.
Really really small point. There are some really picky people, companies, clients that I have worked for who insist on 2 threads extending even beyond the nylock nut.
Have you ever thought of using a 3/4" threaded rod on each side of the mast on order to raise the mast up and down to adjust rigging tension for temperature variants ?
How much vertical travel of the mast do you think would be adequate to take up the slack and release the tension . I'm considering making a custom boot for the bottom of the mast.
Robert Orzech it would only need a few millimeters to take up the slack. Large yachts and catamarans actually use a hydraulic ram to accomplish just this. The issue isn't going to be creating the tension, but supporting the forces and torquing of heeling with the attachments of the rod. On a small boat, it is doable, but for our size, the lashings is actually easier than engineering a lifting mast step.
When I looked at my mast step , it looks so flimsy (to me), So If I add anything to it ,I will make sure it's twice as strong as original .Thanks for you response .
It is if you do it yourself. New steel rigging for my boat was going to be $18,000. I re-rigged with synthetic for $4,400 including a full spool (600 feet) of spare Dyneema.
hey...so if you just have 1 sheet winch...you just need to anchor other end? 🤔👍🏴☠️⛵ also would this work on a wooden mast? 🤔 i already replaced the running back stays with dyneema to lessen the mainsail chaffing..👍
The second winch is just an anchor. You could use a cleat to get the job done. A wooden mast should work great as it expands and contracts in a way similar to Dyneema so the temperature changes shouldn’t have such a drastic effect on tension.
Dear friends good morning. Very nice and helpfull video. Being mainly a regata sailor, precision mast tuning is important. Tensioning the rigging this way in not so accurate and repeatabile. Shrouds will give me the precision I need. Could I use turnbuckles to tension all of the rigging like you did to your forestay? Your opinion is much apreciated. Thank you in advance.
Turnbuckles can certainly be used and will make the process of tuning much faster and easier. The reason I didn’t use turnbuckles is because they were out of our budget, so this helps show a way that it can be done without turnbuckles. With turnbuckles, you either get your splice perfectly measured so the throw of the turnbuckle is sufficient, or you simply cut your stays shorter and have the lashing and deadeye which attaches to the turnbuckle. The latter arrangement makes the construction process much easier since the lashing will correct any inaccuracies in the length measurement. You could think of the lashing as the macro adjustment and the turnbuckle as the micro adjustment.
1. I already had the bronze toggles on hand. 2. It gives full range of motion to the top of the stay by creating a universal joint which lowers the stress on the tang. Being rope rigging, this isn't as necessary as the rope itself has flexibility. Since I already had them, i decided to use them. 3. The lowers needed the toggles to make everything fit closely together without chafing. For the sake of symmetry, I did the cap shrouds with the same setup as the lowers and check stays.
Riggingdoctor.com Check out the blog and search "synthetic standing rigging" in the search bar on the top right corner. It will pull up way too much information on the topic for you.
I am coming to this discussion very late, but very interesting. Apart from the fact that you don't like the look (fair enough), is there any problem using stainless steel turnbuckles and tensioners instead of fiddling about with the rope? I like the idea for the weight saving and also it looks great to use something with a more traditional look, but I want to keep things simples. Any technical problem doing this?
Turnbuckles are wonderful, they just need to be inspected (just like deadeyes) to make sure they are in working order. The biggest reason I didn’t use turnbuckles was cost. We needed 12 turnbuckles (at $100 each) which would have cost an additional $1200 to re-rig the boat. I was trying to do it in the most economical way possible, so I went with deadeyes which cost $24 in materials. I personally and currently have two turnbuckles (one on each forestay) to make life easier, but the rest are still deadeyes. If you can afford turnbuckles, I would use them in a heartbeat as they will make adjusting the rig so much easier! If you are trying to save some money and have lots of time on your hands, deadeyes are an option available to get you on the water for less money.
They are made by Alexander-Roberts and are still for sale on the West Marine webpage. I don’t know the part number as these were on the boat when I bought it.
This is the most informative video I have watched in years. Even the comments have been helpful. GoodOnYa. Thanks.
Thank you for your well presented video. I had never heard of Dyneema before today when someone asked about it on Cruisers Forum. I am amazed. Love the concept. 15x stronger than steel, 1/5 the weight. 30 years as a rigger and charter captain but retired since 2000, so totally out of the loop on new innovations.
But still sailing...:)
15x stronger than steel _of the same weight_ . By diameter they are similar in strength, depending on the grade of stainless and dyneema.
I have an old steel ketch that still has lignum vitae deadeyes and as I re-rig, I can see your system being very helpful. I have struggled with whether to go with turnbuckles or not, but you have made me re-assess. It seems that the blend of traditional and modern materials may be appropriate. Thank you!
Great video. I was just sailing in 40 kt winds. the wind was so hard that the lee side spreader actually popped out of its housing and was lost. We didn't know this until we came about and nearly broke the mast. I have a 30 ft C & C. When we came about we noticed that the top of the mast was bent nearly 4 feet off center at the top. We quickly did a straight downwind sail to take the pressure off the mast, dropped the sails and connected the main sheet halyard to the port side rail to stabilize the mast. After we assessed the problem we realized that the set setscrew that held the port spreader failed, and the spreader got yanked out of its housing. Design not so good. A learning experience. Thanks again. Steve.
This is where dyneema is better IMO. It has less points of failure. As a climber, I use lots of different cordage and one thing we ALWAYS do is plan in redundancy. Now since dyneema is relatively cheap it might be possible to make a shroud that has 2 parallel dyneema cords that are tensioned appropriately. If one gets severed the other can take the load. This might be an overkill though as dyneema is stranded. But I’d love to hear thoughts on this. Wind will likely whistle through the 2 strands though !! My thinking is that you might be able to shrink the diameter down of the original by 1mm and then double it up. This would provide redundancy and make it cheaper (prices is a square law of diameter).
Very well done video. I think this synthetic rigging thing is going to blow up (as it should) for offshore sailors. Sailing and seaman/womanship is at its core about self sufficiency and I can tell you in the western Caribbean we might as well be on Mars when it comes to supplies. A few (hundred) feet of Dyneema has quickly jumped to the top of the 'oh shit' list. Sub'd and look forward to more videos!
I think the other great thing about synthetic rigging is it’s easy to store on your boat and you can also use it as haulage line in an emergency. What’s not to like ?
Super clear explenation and instructions. I am about to rig my own boat. Could not choose between steel and dyneema until now. You broke it down beautifully. Thank you from the Netherlands!
Glad to help you in your decision process :)
That is amazing. I am totally going to use Synthetic the next i rig my boat. Thank you for sharing :)
Very interesting. A little back to the future, replacing natural fibers with space-age synthetic.
Thanks guys!!! I not only learned a lot about synthetic rigging but rigging in general! PEACE OUT! Ü
Herby, how'd you get to be so smart? Can't wait for the next painting video Maddie!
You got my Thumbs Up just because It will help your site. Way too much technical jargon for this old to comprehend!
You need to write a book on your technical knowledge with step by step and pictures.This would help fund your fun.
Awesome video! Thank you for the information. I have always been nervous about SS rigging and this is definitely an option to consider.
Definitely looking into that. Thank you. I replace my life lines with dynema almost ten years ago. I though it would be a good first test. I figured it would last about first years but it’s still going strong. Very happy with that.
Herbie you rock! I love this so much we use class 2 advised by you! Nice job doctor thank you thank you ❤u! Fair wind a day beautiful seas mate!
Great video, I'm new to sailing and this concept is right up my street. I love that it's doable for anyone with all those extra benefits including self checking for wear.
Loved the synthetic rigging work. You know one the coolest things to do in the Bahamas is right at Nassau. Atlantis has a marina, and for about 4.50/ft the entire crew gets a place to stay overnight, and free admission to the Atlantis water park. Just FYI! The waterpark and hotel room are normally like 1000 per person or something silly. Cheers!!
So you show up in your dinghy?
@@court2379 No you have to pay for a Marina Slip...
@@allynonderdonk7577 I was implying that the dingy is short, so the price would be low as a joke.
@@court2379 Ok I see...didn't get it until you explained it.
whats the total-final diference in price comparing ss and dyneema standing rigging?
thanks. Felipe
What a refreshingly normal couple. Informative video too. Thanks
Thanks! 😊
You are at the 8 year mark. How's the rigging holding up? I've just bought some Dyneema to use on a small boat thanks to seeing some of your videos on splicing it.
It’s still going strong :)
I’d like to replace our SS rigging with dyneema. A bit of a choice to eliminate roller furling altogether. Huge expense of multiple headsails. Too bad there isn’t a hardened, teflon (?) sleeve that will absolutely eliminate chafe and permit maintaining roller furler.
Hi Herby
Many thanks for this simple and instructive video. I’m on the van to purchase an Amel Maramu 48 which need new rigging and
after seeing your’s and Zingaro’s video, synthetic rigging is what I’ll choose. One question I have are related to the tension which must be achieved: did you use any measuring tool and which one?
Wish you both fair winds and safe sailing
I set the tension “by feel”. Basically you want the shrouds tight enough that the leeward stays go slack but not loose. If they go loose, you need to tighten them. If they stay tight, you need to loosen them.
Very well done video. Will email you as this format isn't overly conducive to more in-depth discussion.
Thanks for taking the time to put this out there and for contributing to the sailing community.
Can you use a rigging tension gauge like the loos? In a hi performance trimaran I raced on 20 years ago we had Kevlar/technora stays with shrink tape/tube uv protection , not needed with dyneema/spectra but it could be useful for chafe?
The dyneema splices don’t appear to hold very tight on the SS thimbles. Is their anyway to improve that . I have used a adjustable technora back stay for years but for quick adjustability for different wind condition ( I race) means I would want to use turnbuckles I think. Definitively a flexible system for maintenance in far flung places!
Cheers warren
You certainly could slip a shrink tube over the stay to help with chafe protection.
The eye splices are a little loose to facilitate thimble replacement and because the thimble is not present when the splice is made, making it hard to make it snug enough without making the eye too snug. To tighten it up, you can tie a seizing knot at the throat.
Thanks for your video. You were mentioned by Sailing Zingaro, so I needed to see your video. I see that my question of whether you can use a Loos Tension Gauge on Synthetic Dyneema has already been answered!!! Now, I need to check out your blog...Others also suggest buying Brian Toss's book,"The Rigger's Apprentice" --- I found that reference by watching Project Atticus's videos on how to do Sta Lok rigging and calculations...I'm retired and planning for my first boat, an Alberg 30...
Alberg 30s are great boats! The riggers apprentice a great book as well for understanding rigging. If you rerig your “soon to be new to you” Alberg with synthetic, expect it to cost around $800 total for all the materials involved.
Zingaro has a very pretty looking system. I like how he color coded the port and starboard components :)
Let me know if you have any questions as you go!
Bravo, Bravo, Bravo! Cheap way to get going and sail inexpensively while on the cheap to fix and replace.
Indeed, get out there and start cruising. Upgrade as you go if you want!
@@RiggingDoctor Where did you buy Dyneema from?
I got it at West Marine. With my corporate account there I get a discount and it is priced quite reasonably.
Another great video! I am new to sailing and greatly appreciate all the information you two provide! Thank you!🤙🏾
It’s a fun world to come into!
I watched the splice video as well. These videos are a very good resource on rigging. Thanks for making them.
Merry Christmas
Thanks! Glad they were helpful 😎
Merry Christmas!
well done. thanks. I will be switching over as soon as I can get my mast welded to change the attachment points.
I love it, thanks for all this information
A couple of observations Herb regarding the rigging as I have seen it on your boat:
1. Your spliced loops look very long? They should be very short - right down onto the thimble. No need to serve them if they are tight and remain there under tension.
2. The order you mentioned to tension stays is a bit concerning. The order I use is different. It is (on main mast at least)
Aft Lowers
Fwd Lowers
Cap shrouds
The reason for this, is due to tensioning forestays correctly. Like you, we have a babystay / inner forestay with a relatively large stay sail.
Tension the aft lower first, brings your inner forestay into tension, and also gives the correct fore and aft position of the mast itself.
Tension the fwd lower brings balance to the aft lower tension, giving a two triangulations that can provide adjustment to the mast position / inner forestay tension.
The cap shrouds should always be tensioned last, as it has little if any, effect on the forestay tensions, and can lead to improper mast bend and / or angle if done first.
The order later druing tuning is exactly the same.
1. The loops need the length to have enough tail buried. Ideally it would be tiny, but then the splice would slip apart.
2. They both get the job done, but if you start top down, then you start with the mast centered amidships. Getting it done and going sailing is all that matters!
Thanksgivings
Ran into you channel through watching, It's Time To Rebuild the Watermaker!! - (MJ Sailing - Ep 103), you guys were fantastic inviting others to join you on a rainy day. On that note I am so glad I found your channel Just in this video you have shared so much knowledge and Hereby is a rope handling master by all rights. please keep sharing.
Welcome aboard, friend!
Thank you. Wasn’t sure what to do with the head stay on my C22
Can you do a update after 5 years how is your rigging held up what have you fixed, and what has been replaced
Really interesting video, even for a novice sailor who doesn't understand any of the knot references. But as is the case with many of these sailing videos, nobody says anything about the relative costs -- both materials and, if you don't do it yourself, the install. Maybe it's in the comments below, but who wants to search them all.
I did a blog post a few years ago on just this very topic. Check it out with the link below:
www.riggingdoctor.com/life-aboard/2016/11/7/cost-of-conversion?rq=synthetic%20rigging%20conversion
Okay so it was 3 years ago at the making of this video, 6 years have passed, how do you think the dynema had lasted? Thanks for making this video.. 😊🤙
It’s been great! Still sailing on the same rigging with minimal signs of wear
Great video! Lots of information. We will be following for further updates!
yep, I did the same!!
I can't wait to get through 8 feet of snow to get to my boat so I can change my rigging to synthetic. I got about 4 kilometres of synthetic rope of various sizes and colours. I'm going to go crazy with it. Thanks for all the nice closeups and tips that will help me immensely . What are those frictionless eyes made from? Some special high density polymer ? or what ? Can they be printed with Graphite ink ? SS Eyes are so dam expensive here.Cheers
They are just plain old stainless steel eyes from West Marine. The big ones cost around $14 each, the smaller ones were only a few dollars.
You can use any polished metal surface in there, the only goals are to reduce friction and withstand thousands of crushing pounds.
If you have any questions along the way, feel free to email me and I can get back to you with detail photos of any parts you have questions with.
@@RiggingDoctor Thank you very much! I will email you to pick your brain when the time comes. Greatly appreciated ! Fair winds
Aww... I got all excited at the mention of 'Deadeyes' only to be devastated by the lack of lignum vitae discs, much beloved by salty, old sea dogs. 😬
I really wanted to use them but I needed 7 holes for the cap shrouds and that would be a very large piece of wood! The Dyneema deadeyes only cost $24 to make, far less than it would have cost to buy the blocks of wood (but it would have been so salty looking)!
@@RiggingDoctor Arr... Deadeyes, ratlines and belaying pins, don't leave port wi'out 'em m'dear. Oops, it's not September 19th yet. 😜
WHAT DO YOU USE TO MEASURE THE TENSION ON EACH LINE ? SO ALL SETS ARE OF EQUAL TENSION , BALANCED ?
Great video. I’m thinking about going with synthetic rigging on my boat. Thanks!
Thanks!
It’s a really reliable setup that we have put to the test and now I can confidently say that it works! Best of all, it will never corrode.
When you spliced your stays, did you need to pre-tension the stays to set the splice? I'm reading where I might need to apply 2k lbs or more to the stay to 'set the splice' before using. What's your experience with this? Also, any tips on getting around t-ball fittings?
This is a post about the cost of conversion but it was on a bot with T-balls so it goes over all the added pets needed to make it work on the mast side of the stay.
As for setting the splice, you don’t have to but it will save A LOT of time. If you don’t, you will be taking creep out of the line for about a month. If you set the splice, it becomes just a few weeks and very minor during that time.
To set splices, I attach the stay to a tree and the other end to an old F150, then I drive away from the tree slowly until the stay goes tight and the truck stops. I measure on the ground where the tires meet the ground and do this until the tires stop advancing. Then I leave the truck in neutral on a hill held up by the stay and tree. I leave it like this overnight and come the next day it’s pretty much done creeping.
Enjoyed this very much. thanks
Hello guys!, thanks a lot for this informative video! (I understand its 3 years old by now btw). Two questions: 1. you mention you have to service the spreaders protection; so..How often do you service the dyneema protection in the spreaders?.
The second question: It is my understanding that Dyneema gets degraded with the sun light; how do you guys deal with this; would it make sense to cover somehow the rigging to protect it from UV lighting?.
Again, many many thanks! :D
Hello! While it’s an older video, it all still holds true.
Service is when you wrap another line tightly around the one doing the work. www.riggingdoctor.com/life-aboard/2015/9/1/line-service
I haven’t had to do anything in those areas and we’re entering the 7th year now!
As for UV, yes and no. The outer 0.1μm gets destroyed and protects the rest of the line, so there is no loss in line strength and it’s easier to inspect without a cover hiding it.
@@RiggingDoctor sweet!, thanks for the quick reply! =)
I really enjoy this episode. Probably why it's my 3rd time watching it, or is it 4. Either way. Thanks for the information you toos.
Can there be any problems with synthetic rigging old noodley racing mast?
That is so awesome, and inspiring!
TFS well presented and I think most can understand what your doing with the rigging. One question I have is can you use a self furling jib on the forestays or will it abrade the dyneema. The way your setup to handle lines from the cockpit would lend itself to having self furling on both jibs. I do thing the weigh loss with the dyneema is a good way to lower your center of gravity.
The furler can chafe the Dyneema and there would be no way to inspect it. As far as I know, there is still no furler over Dyneema.
What’s not clear is what happens to the lashing tails. Are they tied in or is it just the frapping that locks them before you release the tension.
The frapping knot holds everything in place and the tails then become ornamental. They are tied over the frapping knot to protect and conceal it, but that knot knot is strictly ornamental.
Good video, what about using double braded Kevlar as a cover at the spreaders?
That would work very well and save you the time of applying the service to the stay.
very interesting! I had no idea, thank you for the great presentation!
Thanks for the video i was one of the ones who was asking for the info when i watched your trapping video. Good stuff.
Frapping. Auto correct stinks. Lol
Only just found this, REALLY interesting stuff. I would like to know how this may or may not affect your Insurance. We all know insurance companies get a bit anal about SS rigging and the 10 year rule of thumb. I'd be interested to know if insurance companies would be capable of recognising or at least understanding the principles and properties of the Dyneema rig in order to insure the vessel.
They do! And they like it!
It’s still new stuff so they don’t have the time limit part yet.
Fantastic informative video. We've had some rod rigging repairs carried for the reasons you mentioned. didn't even consider Dyneema.. We will next time, if only for the weight saving. Have you ever had Dyneema shrouds fail catastrophically. What is the breaking strain compared to stainless steel and rod rigging. Very good review, well done.
I have never had a catastrophic failure with dyneema. Off of Hatteras, our anchor chafed on the headstay deadeye and sawed through a few of the strands. We knew it was crippled and kept the loads to a minimum on it. I consider that chafed headstay a failure because we couldn't use it like normal, but the stay never broke and nothing fell down, so I also consider the whole situation a success. Chafe is very easy to spot as the line looks visibly worn and fuzzy, whereas steel has a microscopic hairline fracture.
Thanks for watching and let me know if you ever have any questions in the future!
P.S. We will be doing a video soon on spotting and repairing failing dyneema. One of our lifelines is in need of some work and we will be covering the whole process. Be sure to subscribe so that you are notified as soon as it's uploaded.
To answer the one question Herby missed, Dyneema is 15x stronger than steel, but only 1/5 of the weight.
the german yachtmagazin palstek.de had a nice article on the topic dynema rigging. You might get big problems with the peak loads at the points where you fix the dynema to the boat. the 7x19 stainless wires usually used have a lot of strech when there comes some power to the boat. You would never ty your boat to the dock with dynema because you might lose your clamps when some heavy swell will move the boat. you will use some polyester with 10 -30 % stretch to cut of the peak load. the palstek rigg doctors recommend to strenght the points of fixation the dynema a lot !!!
Good video. I believe dyneema and synthetic rigging is the future.
What I would be interested in, is a hybrid standing rigging. Instead of the stainless cables, I want synthetic but still use the stainless turnbuckles and such. I think that is an interesting alternative that could catch on in Germany. Although our boat is in Greece
The hybrid is very nice. You have the ease of quick tuning with the ease of inspection of synthetic
@@RiggingDoctor So I want to ask here if I understand it right. I could use turnbuckles and just Möbius spliced eyes in the Dyneema line? You do the same in your forestay right? Want to buy my first boat next year and start sailing.
Is there any particular reason you don't use turnbuckles so the tension can be adjusted quickly and easily with any change in temperature? Tensioning the rigging using the winches and frapping knots seem very time consuming.
Turnbuckles would be nice, but we needed 11 of them and for our size, they cost around $100 each. To save on the cost, we went with deadeyes which cost about $24 in materials.
Where you purchase the dynnema and how is holding on as of today?
I buy mine at West Marine. The rope you want is New England Ropes STS-HSR 3/8” or 9mm.
Buying it by the spool gives you a good discount and if you are buying in bulk, you can usually negotiate a better price. Ask them about giving you “port supply price” on the spool since it’s a bulk sale.
Other option is to wait for them to have their sales (Labor Day and Memorial Day are the two big sales where the discount is better than what I would pay with my Port Supply discount).
It’s currently 7 years old and 15,000nm sailed on it, and it’s still going strong. Steel rigging needs to be replaced every 10 years or 10,000nm, so in that sense we would be halfway through our second rig (if we were steel) but instead we are still sailing strong!
@@RiggingDoctor Thank you, I should be getting my chair soon get all the measurements and order a 600' spool. If you in Puerto Rico I'll contract you.
Awesome I was thinking about this! You guys are great.
Just subscribed after learning a great deal from you over the years. Curious to know if there is any difference in the sound a dyneema rig makes? I've noticed in other videos something of an aeolian harp effect. Have you experienced anything like this?
I have only had this happen when I didn’t have a sail bent onto the headstay. It was a rather strange sound but as soon as I had the sail on it, that seemed to be enough dampening to hush the whole rig.
How about putting a stainless steel pipe over synthetic rigging at the bow as a protection from the anchor? Could slide it up to inspect the rigging.
That is an option! I just put a turnbuckle there so that the lower portion is bronze instead of rope.
What are your thoughts on New England Ropes, 7mm 'heat-set' dyneema for the Standing rigging on an Alberg 30? That was suggested to me by Kraken Structures, after I saw them mentioned on Sailing Zingaro. I am still boat searching and exploring ideas...Have to get caught up on your 'regen' videos, too...
That would work great. I used 9mm here for a 45 foot boat. The Alberg has a lot lower load on the rigging, having less ballast and a much shorter mast. They also make excellent sailboats.
Let me know if you have any questions about the conversion, I would be happy to help as a reference.
Starting to make dyneema ringing. Thanks for your video
Excellent!
I love your videos and this one is especially helpful. I'm heading back to our boat next month, after 5 years away, to replace my rigging to dynema and swap the diesel to electric.
I wanted to head down there (guaymas, mx) with the dynema I will need with me. Do you know I good source, you would recommend. And what sizes would you suggest? My boat is a Cal Cruising 36. I'm not sure if I will reuse the current turnbuckles.
Can you send me an email to riggingdr@gmail.com?
very well done.
Could you skip the toggles and go directly into the tangs? If so it would save even more weight at the top of the mast where it has the most effect on heeling. Cons?
Yes, but the tangs for the lowers are close together and the eyes would rub. The toggle simply flips the eye by 90*.
The toggles at the top are not necessary but they looked a little less “chafey” than the tang of the eye were to ever rub on it.
In steel rigging, the toggles are mandatory because they provide a universal joint at the end and greatly reduce the incidence of stress fractures in the end fittings and wires. Dyneema won’t fracture, so it’s more focused on space. 1/2 a pound at the top of the mast is about 25 foot pounds on a 50 foot mast, so small numbers can make big differences!
Definitely try to use the least amount of parts that will safely accomplish the task at hand.
Great answer! Cheers!
So it's no good in the winter unless you somehow make it work.... what is the UV rating? In another video it shows folks pulling the line with one end tied to a tree the other to their truck to pull the tension or stretch the line before hanging it. Interesting concept the synthetics.... still some kinks to work out.
Yep, winter stretch is pretty intense. The Rigging goes slack in the cold and comes back to tension in the spring. If it’s too cold for the Rigging it’s too cold for me!
UV resistance is fine, DSM has found no detrimental effects of UV exposure to uncovered Dyneema.
The truck and tree method was me on the blog, also a few of our early videos (I don’t know if those early videos are still public though)
One big question. How did you rig this originally before you stepped the mast? What was involved in how you got it initially installed?
I replaced one stay at a time with the mast in place and a halyard acting as a temporary stay.
There are norseman terminals that can also be rigged in the field with ss wire. Cheers from Northern California.
Sta-lok as well. For steel rigging, compression fittings, like Norseman and Sta-lok are the best. They give you the strength of steel but don’t have any of the stress hardening of swage fittings.
What did you use for chafe protection on the headstay? And then where did you get that?
This is what I used and I got it from West Marine: www.westmarine.com/new-england-ropes-dyneema-anti-chafing-sleeves-P002_071_006_503.html?queryID=347cda62b8c29396fae99892aa9a731f&objectID=9059353&indexName=production_na01_westmarine_demandware_net__WestMarine__products__en_US
7:01 a Moebius Brummel (sp?) eyesplice? Intriguing. Wold love to see you do a how-to video on your various unusual splices, knots, etc. And, if may ask, you're a pretty young guy...where did you learn all this, and how long have you been sailing?
Stay tuned, soon we’re going to be putting out a daily video for a week on just this topic!
I learned some of the splices from reading various books and then I invented the splice to make the deadeye and the knot to tie off the lashings. So far the rigging is 5 years old and still going strong with over 10,000 miles on it! 🙂
New subscriber here 👍awesome video! I've got some catching up to do. 🎥
👍
Ok it’s now 2022 and the rigging on your boat is 7 years old. Have you had to repair any of the standing rigging and is it still in use with no problems tho king about doing this with my little sailboat and would definitely like your input Love the vids keep it up
It’s still going strong! Budget wise, deadeyes are cheapest, but if you can afford it turnbuckles with deadeyes will make your life easier.
We haven’t had to replace any synthetic stays but we did have to replace our inner forestay (which was still steel) with Dyneema back in 2020. All the other stays are still from 2015 :)
@@RiggingDoctor outstanding. Think I’m going to go this way. Thanks for the reply. Stay safe out there
Interesting to hear about the negative thermal expansion coefficient.
Curious, I just looked up the thermal expansion coefficient and it's: -12 10-6 per K. Over 15M (50 ft) that's 0.18 mm (0.0006") per K. Over 0-30 Celcius (32-86F) that's 5.4 mm (0.018").
Was your rigging pre-stretched dyneema where they stretch it under load and heat at the same time?
The creep rate may be a bigger factor, it'd be interesting to know how much it stretches over it's lifetime with such dynamic loads on a sail boat. Was part of the reason you didn't choose turnbuckles because of the amount of creep over time?
We sized the stays with creep in mind, selecting a size that is significantly stronger than necessary for the work it will do, but so that it is never truly taxed and begin creeping.
In the winter, the headstay will go so slack that I can actually pull it down about a 1/4" by hand! Luckily it all goes right back in the spring.
As for the deadeyes: turnbuckles for our size of boat cost about $100 each. When you need 11 of them, the cost becomes a concern. Deadeyes cost me about $24 in materials, making the whole process affordable.
The rope I used for everything but the backstays is Heat Set Dyneema, as it is stronger and has less creep (less than an inch). The backstays are regular Dyneema and they creeped about 6 feet before they settled in.
I’m new to sailing and I think I need a beginner tutorial before I watch this. Any recommendations?
ua-cam.com/video/MctpeFJ4AuY/v-deo.html
This one shows the whole installation and all the parts involved so you can get a feel for what is happening here.
Very good sharing diff options
Would you be able to mix/match synthentic with steel standing rigging?
For example, replacing the lowers with synthetic, while leaving the uppers as stainless. Or replacing the shrouds with synthetic and the fore/aft stays with stainless?
I replaced my lowers last year, but the uppers were swaged in place and I couldn't take them off without cutting them. I would consider replacing the uppers with synthetic.
My forestay requires a metal stay for the roller furling that is presently in place, so I probably would stay with the same.
But my aft stay could be easily replaced with a system like you mentioned.
Is it fine to mix/match or are there some other considerations that I should know about?
The headstay and backstay can mix and match, but shrouds should all be one type.
Synthetic and steel expand differently as temperatures change. Your mast will only be in tune if it is the temperature you set it at. This means you would need to tune the Rigging every time you went out because of temperature changes.
If they are all steel or all synthetic, then they will all change the same with temperature and the mast will remain in tune.
@@RiggingDoctor Thanks! I'll consider it as an option! I think it will be a good match for my Contessa 26. As boats get larger, are there limits to when synthetic stops being appropriate? Is it the same considerations for a small boat like mine vs, say a 45' steel sailboat vs something larger like a 52' Amel vs a 60' super yacht?
Jordan Harkness everything just gets bigger and more expensive. On your contessa, this will work great.
The reduction of weight aloft will make her more stable and even more stout of a little circumnavigator! A friend of mine has a contessa 26 and they are solid and sea worthy!
That is a great video! Thanks guys.
Very old-school, very nice..!
Synthetic standing rigging? maybe next time, probably next time. Your system of using lashings and deadeyes for tensioning is pretty darned clever. On the one hand, it is all rope, all repairable, no metal fatigue or closed-cell corrosion to worry about, on the other hand your system is so onerous to use in practice that you preferer to sail around in cold weather with your standing rigging improperly tensioned. I'm not sure I'm willing to go there.
I would want a system where if a front moves through mid Atlantic that drops the temperature 20-30 degrees, that in fifteen minutes I can go around the boat and for every 10 degrees of temperature drop I can turn each turnbuckle X-number or turns and the tension will be right - or something like that. Something dead easy and dead simple. I just don't see that working with a deadeye system - there are just too many layers in the way of making a necessary adjustment.
Really love that back-stay tensioner though. That is trick!
dynema for life lines too
Great video. I love the thought of DIY rigging. My boat is over due. You seem to know what your talking about. What are your credentials?
I learned rigging a few years back and invented a knot and a splice that make it possible to rig and tension with dyneema without turnbuckles. I started a rigging company and worked part time as a rigger for a few years before we went cruising (main job is dentistry).
Now I'm cruising and simultaneously testing out my system. Problems and issues that arise are all listed on the blog as well as methods to correct them.
For more information on synthetic rigging and how to fabricate it yourself, please check out the website www.riggingdoctor.com and search "synthetic standing rigging" in the search bar on the top right corner.
Great video very informative. I notice you use "standard" Thimbles on your rigging, my question is was this a purely economic choice or would you have chosen the cast polished thimbles given the choice thanks
It was based on cost. The regular thimbles cost me $1.50 each where a sailmakers thimble cost me $12 each.
The regular thimbles crush down until the ends meet, then they stop closing. They work well unless they are hit hard from the side and cause the ends to slip next to each other. Under the tension they hold, the thimble buckles and crushes, then needs to be replaced.
A sailmakers thimble would be far stronger and safer, but cost significantly more where I was when I made the rigging.
@@RiggingDoctor thanks for the reply I am considering all this stuff in preparation for purchasing my first big boat at 1.50 i see the attraction my concern is risk of chafing but at that price would be easy to swap them out if they show signs of deformation
Indeed! We carry a bunch of spares with us. The cost of all of them and spares was less than the same sailmakers thimbles.
I use forged thimbles on my heat set dyneema rigged F 31. Overkill probably, but they're smooth and strong and cost is reasonable. Defender industries.
Really really small point. There are some really picky people, companies, clients that I have worked for who insist on 2 threads extending even beyond the nylock nut.
Have you ever thought of using a 3/4" threaded rod on each side of the mast on order to raise the mast up and down to adjust rigging tension for temperature variants ?
I have not considered that option
How much vertical travel of the mast do you think would be adequate to take up the slack and release the tension . I'm considering making a custom boot for the bottom of the mast.
Robert Orzech it would only need a few millimeters to take up the slack. Large yachts and catamarans actually use a hydraulic ram to accomplish just this. The issue isn't going to be creating the tension, but supporting the forces and torquing of heeling with the attachments of the rod. On a small boat, it is doable, but for our size, the lashings is actually easier than engineering a lifting mast step.
When I looked at my mast step , it looks so flimsy (to me), So If I add anything to it ,I will make sure it's twice as strong as original .Thanks for you response .
would you recommend synthetic rigging two years on? I am looking into possibly doing it on my boat!
Our rigging is now 7 years old and 15,000 miles, I still recommend synthetic standing rigging 👍
@@RiggingDoctor Thank you!
Ooooooo I like this I thought about this but didn't know if it was possible or that anyone does it. The question is, is it cheaper.
It is if you do it yourself. New steel rigging for my boat was going to be $18,000. I re-rigged with synthetic for $4,400 including a full spool (600 feet) of spare Dyneema.
Excellent points!
hey...so if you just have 1 sheet winch...you just need to anchor other end? 🤔👍🏴☠️⛵ also would this work on a wooden mast? 🤔 i already replaced the running back stays with dyneema to lessen the mainsail chaffing..👍
The second winch is just an anchor. You could use a cleat to get the job done.
A wooden mast should work great as it expands and contracts in a way similar to Dyneema so the temperature changes shouldn’t have such a drastic effect on tension.
Dear friends good morning. Very nice and helpfull video. Being mainly a regata sailor, precision mast tuning is important. Tensioning the rigging this way in not so accurate and repeatabile. Shrouds will give me the precision I need. Could I use turnbuckles to tension all of the rigging like you did to your forestay? Your opinion is much apreciated. Thank you in advance.
Turnbuckles can certainly be used and will make the process of tuning much faster and easier.
The reason I didn’t use turnbuckles is because they were out of our budget, so this helps show a way that it can be done without turnbuckles.
With turnbuckles, you either get your splice perfectly measured so the throw of the turnbuckle is sufficient, or you simply cut your stays shorter and have the lashing and deadeye which attaches to the turnbuckle. The latter arrangement makes the construction process much easier since the lashing will correct any inaccuracies in the length measurement.
You could think of the lashing as the macro adjustment and the turnbuckle as the micro adjustment.
@@RiggingDoctor Thank you for your reply. Fair winds to your life.
Thank you. Very educational.
Oh thank you sooooooo much for this video !!!! so much info and a choice made ;)
Why did you use toggles instead of just putting the pin trough the thimble on the cap shrouds?
1. I already had the bronze toggles on hand.
2. It gives full range of motion to the top of the stay by creating a universal joint which lowers the stress on the tang. Being rope rigging, this isn't as necessary as the rope itself has flexibility. Since I already had them, i decided to use them.
3. The lowers needed the toggles to make everything fit closely together without chafing. For the sake of symmetry, I did the cap shrouds with the same setup as the lowers and check stays.
Not to be nosy ...well, I guess I am when I ask, about how much would it cost to re-rig a boat that size?
Materials, including enough for a full spare spool, cost $4,400
Do you recommend any book or site to see more of this?
Riggingdoctor.com
Check out the blog and search "synthetic standing rigging" in the search bar on the top right corner. It will pull up way too much information on the topic for you.
I am coming to this discussion very late, but very interesting. Apart from the fact that you don't like the look (fair enough), is there any problem using stainless steel turnbuckles and tensioners instead of fiddling about with the rope? I like the idea for the weight saving and also it looks great to use something with a more traditional look, but I want to keep things simples. Any technical problem doing this?
Turnbuckles are wonderful, they just need to be inspected (just like deadeyes) to make sure they are in working order.
The biggest reason I didn’t use turnbuckles was cost. We needed 12 turnbuckles (at $100 each) which would have cost an additional $1200 to re-rig the boat. I was trying to do it in the most economical way possible, so I went with deadeyes which cost $24 in materials.
I personally and currently have two turnbuckles (one on each forestay) to make life easier, but the rest are still deadeyes.
If you can afford turnbuckles, I would use them in a heartbeat as they will make adjusting the rig so much easier! If you are trying to save some money and have lots of time on your hands, deadeyes are an option available to get you on the water for less money.
@@RiggingDoctor. Do you get enough adjustment in a turnbuckle
There is one important toppic missing on that video.... Price compared to steel rigging
Tensioning the synthetic rigging seems like it would be a nightmare. Also I don't know how you can properly check for perpendicularity on the water.
That video will be coming out soon ;)
These bronze toggles that you use, do you know who manufactures them, and are they still available? Any part/production numbers?
They are made by Alexander-Roberts and are still for sale on the West Marine webpage.
I don’t know the part number as these were on the boat when I bought it.