Thank you for your well presented video. I had never heard of Dyneema before today when someone asked about it on Cruisers Forum. I am amazed. Love the concept. 15x stronger than steel, 1/5 the weight. 30 years as a rigger and charter captain but retired since 2000, so totally out of the loop on new innovations. But still sailing...:)
I have an old steel ketch that still has lignum vitae deadeyes and as I re-rig, I can see your system being very helpful. I have struggled with whether to go with turnbuckles or not, but you have made me re-assess. It seems that the blend of traditional and modern materials may be appropriate. Thank you!
Super clear explenation and instructions. I am about to rig my own boat. Could not choose between steel and dyneema until now. You broke it down beautifully. Thank you from the Netherlands!
Very well done video. I think this synthetic rigging thing is going to blow up (as it should) for offshore sailors. Sailing and seaman/womanship is at its core about self sufficiency and I can tell you in the western Caribbean we might as well be on Mars when it comes to supplies. A few (hundred) feet of Dyneema has quickly jumped to the top of the 'oh shit' list. Sub'd and look forward to more videos!
I think the other great thing about synthetic rigging is it’s easy to store on your boat and you can also use it as haulage line in an emergency. What’s not to like ?
Great video. I was just sailing in 40 kt winds. the wind was so hard that the lee side spreader actually popped out of its housing and was lost. We didn't know this until we came about and nearly broke the mast. I have a 30 ft C & C. When we came about we noticed that the top of the mast was bent nearly 4 feet off center at the top. We quickly did a straight downwind sail to take the pressure off the mast, dropped the sails and connected the main sheet halyard to the port side rail to stabilize the mast. After we assessed the problem we realized that the set setscrew that held the port spreader failed, and the spreader got yanked out of its housing. Design not so good. A learning experience. Thanks again. Steve.
This is where dyneema is better IMO. It has less points of failure. As a climber, I use lots of different cordage and one thing we ALWAYS do is plan in redundancy. Now since dyneema is relatively cheap it might be possible to make a shroud that has 2 parallel dyneema cords that are tensioned appropriately. If one gets severed the other can take the load. This might be an overkill though as dyneema is stranded. But I’d love to hear thoughts on this. Wind will likely whistle through the 2 strands though !! My thinking is that you might be able to shrink the diameter down of the original by 1mm and then double it up. This would provide redundancy and make it cheaper (prices is a square law of diameter).
Definitely looking into that. Thank you. I replace my life lines with dynema almost ten years ago. I though it would be a good first test. I figured it would last about first years but it’s still going strong. Very happy with that.
Loved the synthetic rigging work. You know one the coolest things to do in the Bahamas is right at Nassau. Atlantis has a marina, and for about 4.50/ft the entire crew gets a place to stay overnight, and free admission to the Atlantis water park. Just FYI! The waterpark and hotel room are normally like 1000 per person or something silly. Cheers!!
I’d like to replace our SS rigging with dyneema. A bit of a choice to eliminate roller furling altogether. Huge expense of multiple headsails. Too bad there isn’t a hardened, teflon (?) sleeve that will absolutely eliminate chafe and permit maintaining roller furler.
You are at the 8 year mark. How's the rigging holding up? I've just bought some Dyneema to use on a small boat thanks to seeing some of your videos on splicing it.
Really interesting video, even for a novice sailor who doesn't understand any of the knot references. But as is the case with many of these sailing videos, nobody says anything about the relative costs -- both materials and, if you don't do it yourself, the install. Maybe it's in the comments below, but who wants to search them all.
I did a blog post a few years ago on just this very topic. Check it out with the link below: www.riggingdoctor.com/life-aboard/2016/11/7/cost-of-conversion?rq=synthetic%20rigging%20conversion
That's cool. Where did you learn all this? Both the traditional stuff and how to use dyneema for your rigging. It's interesting that you are the test case for this. So far it looks like it's working out well!
The traditional stuff I learned in books, while the dyneema I learned while in dental school. One of our classes was “biomaterials” and we learned how to read material data sheets and then calculate the minimums needed for that material in various load scenarios. This was all focused on metals and ceramics as we were designing dental bridges and partial dentures where you need to know the minimum cross sectional thickness of the connectors so that the prosthesis wouldn’t break. I’m one of those people who rarely forgets something so that knowledge stuck with me! I heard about dyneema and all of its wonderful properties and then got a hold of the material data sheet for it, and started to engineer the minimums and safe values for it. I then invented the shroud frapping knot to enable one to tension the rigging with a deadeye as well as figuring out how to make the splice to make the deadeye. Then I tested it out with my boat and having a fair bit of confidence in the setup, set out to cross the Atlantic with it even though everyone was telling me that it wouldn’t work and I was going to die! 9 years later it is still going strong!
@@RiggingDoctor Wow, that's cool. Who woulda thought dental school would prepare you for sailing, but it makes sense. I'd think others would be interested in what you've done. We'll see if this catches on.
Great video, I'm new to sailing and this concept is right up my street. I love that it's doable for anyone with all those extra benefits including self checking for wear.
I really wanted to use them but I needed 7 holes for the cap shrouds and that would be a very large piece of wood! The Dyneema deadeyes only cost $24 to make, far less than it would have cost to buy the blocks of wood (but it would have been so salty looking)!
Sta-lok as well. For steel rigging, compression fittings, like Norseman and Sta-lok are the best. They give you the strength of steel but don’t have any of the stress hardening of swage fittings.
Hi Herby Many thanks for this simple and instructive video. I’m on the van to purchase an Amel Maramu 48 which need new rigging and after seeing your’s and Zingaro’s video, synthetic rigging is what I’ll choose. One question I have are related to the tension which must be achieved: did you use any measuring tool and which one? Wish you both fair winds and safe sailing
I set the tension “by feel”. Basically you want the shrouds tight enough that the leeward stays go slack but not loose. If they go loose, you need to tighten them. If they stay tight, you need to loosen them.
Thanks for your video. You were mentioned by Sailing Zingaro, so I needed to see your video. I see that my question of whether you can use a Loos Tension Gauge on Synthetic Dyneema has already been answered!!! Now, I need to check out your blog...Others also suggest buying Brian Toss's book,"The Rigger's Apprentice" --- I found that reference by watching Project Atticus's videos on how to do Sta Lok rigging and calculations...I'm retired and planning for my first boat, an Alberg 30...
Alberg 30s are great boats! The riggers apprentice a great book as well for understanding rigging. If you rerig your “soon to be new to you” Alberg with synthetic, expect it to cost around $800 total for all the materials involved. Zingaro has a very pretty looking system. I like how he color coded the port and starboard components :) Let me know if you have any questions as you go!
I have been thinking about that. The reason I didn’t try it was the temperature fluctuations in my cruising areas. I couldn’t figure out how to keep the tension correct as it got cold, or avoiding the over tightening as it warms. What was your work around? I would love to see pictures if you could send them to riggingdr@gmail.com. I think it would be perfect there but I just couldn’t figure out how to get past these issues. But then again maybe it’s not a real issue at all (I have come across a few of those where I’m convinced it’s going to be an issue and then it was never an issue). I would love to see how you set it up!
@RiggingDoctor I just tied a bowlin each end and used the adjustment on the eyebolts in the rudder wheel(quadrant) to take up the slack. I recommend really stressing it out to stretch out the knots and then re-adjust it snug. Shouldn't stretch enough to notice after that. I'm going to Avalon soon and that's about 32miles upwind so I'll keep you posted.
A couple of observations Herb regarding the rigging as I have seen it on your boat: 1. Your spliced loops look very long? They should be very short - right down onto the thimble. No need to serve them if they are tight and remain there under tension. 2. The order you mentioned to tension stays is a bit concerning. The order I use is different. It is (on main mast at least) Aft Lowers Fwd Lowers Cap shrouds The reason for this, is due to tensioning forestays correctly. Like you, we have a babystay / inner forestay with a relatively large stay sail. Tension the aft lower first, brings your inner forestay into tension, and also gives the correct fore and aft position of the mast itself. Tension the fwd lower brings balance to the aft lower tension, giving a two triangulations that can provide adjustment to the mast position / inner forestay tension. The cap shrouds should always be tensioned last, as it has little if any, effect on the forestay tensions, and can lead to improper mast bend and / or angle if done first. The order later druing tuning is exactly the same.
1. The loops need the length to have enough tail buried. Ideally it would be tiny, but then the splice would slip apart. 2. They both get the job done, but if you start top down, then you start with the mast centered amidships. Getting it done and going sailing is all that matters!
Ran into you channel through watching, It's Time To Rebuild the Watermaker!! - (MJ Sailing - Ep 103), you guys were fantastic inviting others to join you on a rainy day. On that note I am so glad I found your channel Just in this video you have shared so much knowledge and Hereby is a rope handling master by all rights. please keep sharing.
Can you use a rigging tension gauge like the loos? In a hi performance trimaran I raced on 20 years ago we had Kevlar/technora stays with shrink tape/tube uv protection , not needed with dyneema/spectra but it could be useful for chafe? The dyneema splices don’t appear to hold very tight on the SS thimbles. Is their anyway to improve that . I have used a adjustable technora back stay for years but for quick adjustability for different wind condition ( I race) means I would want to use turnbuckles I think. Definitively a flexible system for maintenance in far flung places! Cheers warren
You certainly could slip a shrink tube over the stay to help with chafe protection. The eye splices are a little loose to facilitate thimble replacement and because the thimble is not present when the splice is made, making it hard to make it snug enough without making the eye too snug. To tighten it up, you can tie a seizing knot at the throat.
Very well done video. Will email you as this format isn't overly conducive to more in-depth discussion. Thanks for taking the time to put this out there and for contributing to the sailing community.
The frapping knot holds everything in place and the tails then become ornamental. They are tied over the frapping knot to protect and conceal it, but that knot knot is strictly ornamental.
I can't wait to get through 8 feet of snow to get to my boat so I can change my rigging to synthetic. I got about 4 kilometres of synthetic rope of various sizes and colours. I'm going to go crazy with it. Thanks for all the nice closeups and tips that will help me immensely . What are those frictionless eyes made from? Some special high density polymer ? or what ? Can they be printed with Graphite ink ? SS Eyes are so dam expensive here.Cheers
They are just plain old stainless steel eyes from West Marine. The big ones cost around $14 each, the smaller ones were only a few dollars. You can use any polished metal surface in there, the only goals are to reduce friction and withstand thousands of crushing pounds. If you have any questions along the way, feel free to email me and I can get back to you with detail photos of any parts you have questions with.
the german yachtmagazin palstek.de had a nice article on the topic dynema rigging. You might get big problems with the peak loads at the points where you fix the dynema to the boat. the 7x19 stainless wires usually used have a lot of strech when there comes some power to the boat. You would never ty your boat to the dock with dynema because you might lose your clamps when some heavy swell will move the boat. you will use some polyester with 10 -30 % stretch to cut of the peak load. the palstek rigg doctors recommend to strenght the points of fixation the dynema a lot !!!
What I would be interested in, is a hybrid standing rigging. Instead of the stainless cables, I want synthetic but still use the stainless turnbuckles and such. I think that is an interesting alternative that could catch on in Germany. Although our boat is in Greece
@@RiggingDoctor So I want to ask here if I understand it right. I could use turnbuckles and just Möbius spliced eyes in the Dyneema line? You do the same in your forestay right? Want to buy my first boat next year and start sailing.
I love your videos and this one is especially helpful. I'm heading back to our boat next month, after 5 years away, to replace my rigging to dynema and swap the diesel to electric. I wanted to head down there (guaymas, mx) with the dynema I will need with me. Do you know I good source, you would recommend. And what sizes would you suggest? My boat is a Cal Cruising 36. I'm not sure if I will reuse the current turnbuckles.
Just subscribed after learning a great deal from you over the years. Curious to know if there is any difference in the sound a dyneema rig makes? I've noticed in other videos something of an aeolian harp effect. Have you experienced anything like this?
I have only had this happen when I didn’t have a sail bent onto the headstay. It was a rather strange sound but as soon as I had the sail on it, that seemed to be enough dampening to hush the whole rig.
We talk about that a lot in our other videos. When Dyneema reaches the third phase of its lifecycle, it will begin to creep a lot. Until that point, you have rock solid rigging that doesn’t need to be replaced yet. With inspection, your main issue is chafe. Keep it from chafing and you are in good shape 😉 A dedicated video on inspecting synthetic rigging is a great suggestion. Thanks :)
This is what I used and I got it from West Marine: www.westmarine.com/new-england-ropes-dyneema-anti-chafing-sleeves-P002_071_006_503.html?queryID=347cda62b8c29396fae99892aa9a731f&objectID=9059353&indexName=production_na01_westmarine_demandware_net__WestMarine__products__en_US
TFS well presented and I think most can understand what your doing with the rigging. One question I have is can you use a self furling jib on the forestays or will it abrade the dyneema. The way your setup to handle lines from the cockpit would lend itself to having self furling on both jibs. I do thing the weigh loss with the dyneema is a good way to lower your center of gravity.
Hi, do you still like Dyneema rigging now as much as you did when you made this video? I have recently bought a boat which needs its rigging replaced (the current stuff is 15 years old) and I'm on a tight budget. I'm confident I could do the splicing and ropework, tensioning is new to me but im sure I could find people to help. Weight aloft isn't a massive bonus for me (25' yacht doesn't have much weight in the rig) but the cost savings are and I'm willing to put in a bit of work.
Still just as happy if not more! Do you have a deck stepped mast? With deck stepped, I recommend not doing synthetic unless you’re in the same climate year-round
@RiggingDoctor good to hear! it is a deck stepped mast (on a tabernacle). I'll be taking it out of the water over the winter each year and I live on the south coast of the UK so there wouldn't be a huge temperature range throughout the season. I expect I would have to re-tension it each spring, is it likely to get too tight on hot days?
When you spliced your stays, did you need to pre-tension the stays to set the splice? I'm reading where I might need to apply 2k lbs or more to the stay to 'set the splice' before using. What's your experience with this? Also, any tips on getting around t-ball fittings?
This is a post about the cost of conversion but it was on a bot with T-balls so it goes over all the added pets needed to make it work on the mast side of the stay. As for setting the splice, you don’t have to but it will save A LOT of time. If you don’t, you will be taking creep out of the line for about a month. If you set the splice, it becomes just a few weeks and very minor during that time. To set splices, I attach the stay to a tree and the other end to an old F150, then I drive away from the tree slowly until the stay goes tight and the truck stops. I measure on the ground where the tires meet the ground and do this until the tires stop advancing. Then I leave the truck in neutral on a hill held up by the stay and tree. I leave it like this overnight and come the next day it’s pretty much done creeping.
Ok it’s now 2022 and the rigging on your boat is 7 years old. Have you had to repair any of the standing rigging and is it still in use with no problems tho king about doing this with my little sailboat and would definitely like your input Love the vids keep it up
It’s still going strong! Budget wise, deadeyes are cheapest, but if you can afford it turnbuckles with deadeyes will make your life easier. We haven’t had to replace any synthetic stays but we did have to replace our inner forestay (which was still steel) with Dyneema back in 2020. All the other stays are still from 2015 :)
Hello guys!, thanks a lot for this informative video! (I understand its 3 years old by now btw). Two questions: 1. you mention you have to service the spreaders protection; so..How often do you service the dyneema protection in the spreaders?. The second question: It is my understanding that Dyneema gets degraded with the sun light; how do you guys deal with this; would it make sense to cover somehow the rigging to protect it from UV lighting?. Again, many many thanks! :D
Hello! While it’s an older video, it all still holds true. Service is when you wrap another line tightly around the one doing the work. www.riggingdoctor.com/life-aboard/2015/9/1/line-service I haven’t had to do anything in those areas and we’re entering the 7th year now! As for UV, yes and no. The outer 0.1μm gets destroyed and protects the rest of the line, so there is no loss in line strength and it’s easier to inspect without a cover hiding it.
I see nothing but people gushing over trendy dyneema standing rigging, but there are drawbacks. Has terrible abrasion resistance (compared to steel), sub-par UV resistance (compared to steel), needs to be constantly re-tensioned, so way higher maintenance vs. steel. You have to use your winches to tension a dyneema rig? That makes turnbuckles look genius. The only advantages are light weight and the ability to DIY, which is only really an advantage over rod, not wire because you can DIY wire with mechanical swage fittings. A lot of the same applies to dyneema lifelines. Do you really want to bet your life on something with poorer abrasion resistance than a genoa sheet? Sure, when your boat is finished it'll look super DIY and you can show off what a master craftsmen you are on the dock, but is it really worth it? There's a reason you don't see much dyneema standing rigging and lifelines in racing (actually banned by some regulations). Yeah, many race boats are using synthetic carbon fiber rigging, but that's not the same thing at all. Dyneema is great for running rigging on all boats-an amazing material for that purpose- but probably not a good idea as standing rigging for boats over day-sailor or dinghy size. Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should be done. I'm glad I went with steel when I replaced my lifelines and standing rigging recently.
There is nothing wrong with steel, but I’m afraid you are misinformed about Dyneema. I haven’t needed to adjust my standing rigging in years (2017 was the last time I tuned it). I have sailed full time across the Atlantic and into the Mediterranean on this same tune for over three years now. We are about to sail back across the Atlantic and I’m not going to be tuning it before we go because it doesn’t need it. As for chafe resistance, there are different types of Dyneema and the type you should use for standing Rigging has very good chafe resistance, actually on par with steel cable. I put chafe sleeves on the headstay because I wanted the added protection from the soft hanks but I have seen others who use uncovered Dyneema with bronze hanks chafing away on the stay for years and they have yet to be chafed to the point of needing replacement. As for UV, Dyneema has no loss of strength after long term exposure to UV light. The color will fade but the strength remains. I personally think lifelines are an ideal application for Dyneema because it is soft, light, and much stronger than the equivalent size of steel wire. This means that it’s safer as it’s less likely to break if you need it to catch you. The biggest reason why Dyneema is superior to steel in lifelines is because there are never “meat hooks” in Dyneema, but when a wire breaks, the deep cut that can result when flesh touches it is very dangerous at sea! As for the application of standing rigging, I feel they are equal. Neither is superior because both are engineered for the same task and both need to be inspected regularly. Steel will eventually corrode and crack in under ten years while Dyneema will last much longer than that, but eventually meet its end once the material reaches the final phase in its material life (about 15 years minimum, but it can go longer). Yes, it looks cool, but it has many more qualities than that. Our Synthetic Standing Rigging is now 6 years old and going strong while our marina neighbor has a cracked swage from crevice corrosion at 3 years of age. We are leaving on our transatlantic while he is waiting to have his stay replaced.
@@RiggingDoctor same as steel with regard to chafe resistance? Are you serious? A reasonably sharp knife could bring down an entire dyneema rig in less than a minute. Take said knife to steel cable or rods and...good luck. Of course the knife scenario probably would never happen, but do accidents happen on boats? To sharp/abrasive objects ever accidentally rub, make contact with shrouds and stays? The fact is dyneema isn't even close to steel in chafe and abrasion resistance. To say they're equal isn't true. Just flat out false. Numerous racing associations banned dyneema lifelines for lack of chafe resistance vs steel, so I'm not going out on a limb. I'm not arguing that dyneema can't function as standing rigging, or that it's not a brilliant material, I'm just pointing out that there are drawbacks. Maybe it isn't a good idea for everyone to have something that if it falls can kill you (your rig) held up by something with very weak abrasion resistance compared to the alternative. Everything on boats has pros and cons.... plenty of cons with steel rigging. Just thought I'd point out some of dyneema's, which are not really getting enough representation on here.
Charles Patterson FYI, a knife is not chafe. A knife on Dyneema and a knife on steel is a different story from actual chafe in your scenario of a file on Dyneema and a file on steel. All you need to do is file enough to break a single wire and 1x19 is out of commission! Dyneema is very easy to inspect and chafe is easy to grade and determine when it needs to be replaced. Oil rigs are anchored with Dyneema rodes and cargo ships are moored with Dyneema lines because of the strength and inspectability of the material. The don’t use chain or steel cables because Dyneema works reliably. It’s a shame that racing associations have banned Dyneema lifelines, thankfully we are not racing and can use things that work instead of things that are allowed.
That knife argument often comes up. Steel rigging can be completely cut down in a few seconds using a portable grinder. Chaffe can be eliminated by adding a cover (polythene or dyneema) and rope Service at the shrouds. I have a wooden service tool from Germany.
hey...so if you just have 1 sheet winch...you just need to anchor other end? 🤔👍🏴☠️⛵ also would this work on a wooden mast? 🤔 i already replaced the running back stays with dyneema to lessen the mainsail chaffing..👍
The second winch is just an anchor. You could use a cleat to get the job done. A wooden mast should work great as it expands and contracts in a way similar to Dyneema so the temperature changes shouldn’t have such a drastic effect on tension.
I buy mine at West Marine. The rope you want is New England Ropes STS-HSR 3/8” or 9mm. Buying it by the spool gives you a good discount and if you are buying in bulk, you can usually negotiate a better price. Ask them about giving you “port supply price” on the spool since it’s a bulk sale. Other option is to wait for them to have their sales (Labor Day and Memorial Day are the two big sales where the discount is better than what I would pay with my Port Supply discount). It’s currently 7 years old and 15,000nm sailed on it, and it’s still going strong. Steel rigging needs to be replaced every 10 years or 10,000nm, so in that sense we would be halfway through our second rig (if we were steel) but instead we are still sailing strong!
Fantastic informative video. We've had some rod rigging repairs carried for the reasons you mentioned. didn't even consider Dyneema.. We will next time, if only for the weight saving. Have you ever had Dyneema shrouds fail catastrophically. What is the breaking strain compared to stainless steel and rod rigging. Very good review, well done.
I have never had a catastrophic failure with dyneema. Off of Hatteras, our anchor chafed on the headstay deadeye and sawed through a few of the strands. We knew it was crippled and kept the loads to a minimum on it. I consider that chafed headstay a failure because we couldn't use it like normal, but the stay never broke and nothing fell down, so I also consider the whole situation a success. Chafe is very easy to spot as the line looks visibly worn and fuzzy, whereas steel has a microscopic hairline fracture. Thanks for watching and let me know if you ever have any questions in the future! P.S. We will be doing a video soon on spotting and repairing failing dyneema. One of our lifelines is in need of some work and we will be covering the whole process. Be sure to subscribe so that you are notified as soon as it's uploaded.
7:01 a Moebius Brummel (sp?) eyesplice? Intriguing. Wold love to see you do a how-to video on your various unusual splices, knots, etc. And, if may ask, you're a pretty young guy...where did you learn all this, and how long have you been sailing?
Stay tuned, soon we’re going to be putting out a daily video for a week on just this topic! I learned some of the splices from reading various books and then I invented the splice to make the deadeye and the knot to tie off the lashings. So far the rigging is 5 years old and still going strong with over 10,000 miles on it! 🙂
So it's no good in the winter unless you somehow make it work.... what is the UV rating? In another video it shows folks pulling the line with one end tied to a tree the other to their truck to pull the tension or stretch the line before hanging it. Interesting concept the synthetics.... still some kinks to work out.
Yep, winter stretch is pretty intense. The Rigging goes slack in the cold and comes back to tension in the spring. If it’s too cold for the Rigging it’s too cold for me! UV resistance is fine, DSM has found no detrimental effects of UV exposure to uncovered Dyneema. The truck and tree method was me on the blog, also a few of our early videos (I don’t know if those early videos are still public though)
Only just found this, REALLY interesting stuff. I would like to know how this may or may not affect your Insurance. We all know insurance companies get a bit anal about SS rigging and the 10 year rule of thumb. I'd be interested to know if insurance companies would be capable of recognising or at least understanding the principles and properties of the Dyneema rig in order to insure the vessel.
What are your thoughts on New England Ropes, 7mm 'heat-set' dyneema for the Standing rigging on an Alberg 30? That was suggested to me by Kraken Structures, after I saw them mentioned on Sailing Zingaro. I am still boat searching and exploring ideas...Have to get caught up on your 'regen' videos, too...
That would work great. I used 9mm here for a 45 foot boat. The Alberg has a lot lower load on the rigging, having less ballast and a much shorter mast. They also make excellent sailboats. Let me know if you have any questions about the conversion, I would be happy to help as a reference.
@@RiggingDoctor LOLOLOL I have to have misunderstod here. I belived you knew of another boat that had syntetick rigging and your boat. If so i wood like to know the name of the other boat please : )
From memory, it was something like apteryx. It was many years ago and that boat got sold/converted back to steel. It was a yawl that sailed to Norway and was sold.
Great video very informative. I notice you use "standard" Thimbles on your rigging, my question is was this a purely economic choice or would you have chosen the cast polished thimbles given the choice thanks
It was based on cost. The regular thimbles cost me $1.50 each where a sailmakers thimble cost me $12 each. The regular thimbles crush down until the ends meet, then they stop closing. They work well unless they are hit hard from the side and cause the ends to slip next to each other. Under the tension they hold, the thimble buckles and crushes, then needs to be replaced. A sailmakers thimble would be far stronger and safer, but cost significantly more where I was when I made the rigging.
@@RiggingDoctor thanks for the reply I am considering all this stuff in preparation for purchasing my first big boat at 1.50 i see the attraction my concern is risk of chafing but at that price would be easy to swap them out if they show signs of deformation
I use forged thimbles on my heat set dyneema rigged F 31. Overkill probably, but they're smooth and strong and cost is reasonable. Defender industries.
Dear friends good morning. Very nice and helpfull video. Being mainly a regata sailor, precision mast tuning is important. Tensioning the rigging this way in not so accurate and repeatabile. Shrouds will give me the precision I need. Could I use turnbuckles to tension all of the rigging like you did to your forestay? Your opinion is much apreciated. Thank you in advance.
Turnbuckles can certainly be used and will make the process of tuning much faster and easier. The reason I didn’t use turnbuckles is because they were out of our budget, so this helps show a way that it can be done without turnbuckles. With turnbuckles, you either get your splice perfectly measured so the throw of the turnbuckle is sufficient, or you simply cut your stays shorter and have the lashing and deadeye which attaches to the turnbuckle. The latter arrangement makes the construction process much easier since the lashing will correct any inaccuracies in the length measurement. You could think of the lashing as the macro adjustment and the turnbuckle as the micro adjustment.
ua-cam.com/video/MctpeFJ4AuY/v-deo.html This one shows the whole installation and all the parts involved so you can get a feel for what is happening here.
Why not have galvanized or bronze turnbuckles on the bottom to make tensioning faster? Seems like it would be best of both worlds, no crevice corrosion, ease and cheap replaceability.
I would love to have bronze turnbuckles but they are above my budget. If you want to add turnbuckles, they would be added below the deadeye. You would use the lashings to take out the slack and the turnbuckle to tension. If the turnbuckle ever got two blocked, simply open it all the way, take out the slack again and tension the turnbuckle once more. It really would be the best of both worlds.
It is if you do it yourself. New steel rigging for my boat was going to be $18,000. I re-rigged with synthetic for $4,400 including a full spool (600 feet) of spare Dyneema.
Have you ever thought of using a 3/4" threaded rod on each side of the mast on order to raise the mast up and down to adjust rigging tension for temperature variants ?
How much vertical travel of the mast do you think would be adequate to take up the slack and release the tension . I'm considering making a custom boot for the bottom of the mast.
Robert Orzech it would only need a few millimeters to take up the slack. Large yachts and catamarans actually use a hydraulic ram to accomplish just this. The issue isn't going to be creating the tension, but supporting the forces and torquing of heeling with the attachments of the rod. On a small boat, it is doable, but for our size, the lashings is actually easier than engineering a lifting mast step.
When I looked at my mast step , it looks so flimsy (to me), So If I add anything to it ,I will make sure it's twice as strong as original .Thanks for you response .
Could you skip the toggles and go directly into the tangs? If so it would save even more weight at the top of the mast where it has the most effect on heeling. Cons?
Yes, but the tangs for the lowers are close together and the eyes would rub. The toggle simply flips the eye by 90*. The toggles at the top are not necessary but they looked a little less “chafey” than the tang of the eye were to ever rub on it. In steel rigging, the toggles are mandatory because they provide a universal joint at the end and greatly reduce the incidence of stress fractures in the end fittings and wires. Dyneema won’t fracture, so it’s more focused on space. 1/2 a pound at the top of the mast is about 25 foot pounds on a 50 foot mast, so small numbers can make big differences! Definitely try to use the least amount of parts that will safely accomplish the task at hand.
They have been 7 years and thousands of miles. This rig is actually the prototype for synthetic rigging. When I made it, I was told by Colligo that it couldn’t be done on a boat my size with deadeyes. The reason those are not fully seated is because I was testing the bury portion to make sure it would hold appropriately. If the bury ever slipped, the lock would close and take the load and I would know that the bury had slipped and should be even longer. As you can see it has been holding up for all these years and never budged!
@@RiggingDoctor thanks for replying, good to know. I splice my Kitelines like thisbut I don’t bury that much line. Therefore I make Shure to lick it properly
Hello. Super video, and synthetic rigging will be perfect for me on my next "old" boat. Very informative and good video. Only one question, why not "turn buckles" on all lines to tighten them. Is it just a cost issue or are there other considerations. Hope to hear from you. Norway.
Just a cost issue. For my size, they were $100 per turnbuckle where a deadeye was $24 in materials. With 11 turnbuckles, the choice was simply based on costs.
@@RiggingDoctor Thanks for taking the time to answer :) I am not to worried by cost, but want to be able to do the rigging my self. So a combination of Dynema and TurnBuckles will be my preffered way I think. Thanks again. I am in the prosess of goin through all your good videos. Keep em coming. Greatings from Norway.
To make them for turnbuckles, your measurements and calculations need to be 100% perfect. I did that with the headstay and most of the fabrication time was spent counting threads to get it perfect. Then you have to get all the stretch and creep out before you install them. This can be done but it is labor intensive and needs some hefty equipment (or a tree on a hill and a heavy vehicle to hang by the stay for a few days while the creep occurs). If you have dead eyes above the turnbuckles, you have more flexibility with lengths and you can get all the creep out on the boat. The dead eyes take out the major stretch while the turnbuckles do the tensioning.
Would you be able to mix/match synthentic with steel standing rigging? For example, replacing the lowers with synthetic, while leaving the uppers as stainless. Or replacing the shrouds with synthetic and the fore/aft stays with stainless? I replaced my lowers last year, but the uppers were swaged in place and I couldn't take them off without cutting them. I would consider replacing the uppers with synthetic. My forestay requires a metal stay for the roller furling that is presently in place, so I probably would stay with the same. But my aft stay could be easily replaced with a system like you mentioned. Is it fine to mix/match or are there some other considerations that I should know about?
The headstay and backstay can mix and match, but shrouds should all be one type. Synthetic and steel expand differently as temperatures change. Your mast will only be in tune if it is the temperature you set it at. This means you would need to tune the Rigging every time you went out because of temperature changes. If they are all steel or all synthetic, then they will all change the same with temperature and the mast will remain in tune.
@@RiggingDoctor Thanks! I'll consider it as an option! I think it will be a good match for my Contessa 26. As boats get larger, are there limits to when synthetic stops being appropriate? Is it the same considerations for a small boat like mine vs, say a 45' steel sailboat vs something larger like a 52' Amel vs a 60' super yacht?
Jordan Harkness everything just gets bigger and more expensive. On your contessa, this will work great. The reduction of weight aloft will make her more stable and even more stout of a little circumnavigator! A friend of mine has a contessa 26 and they are solid and sea worthy!
I learned rigging a few years back and invented a knot and a splice that make it possible to rig and tension with dyneema without turnbuckles. I started a rigging company and worked part time as a rigger for a few years before we went cruising (main job is dentistry). Now I'm cruising and simultaneously testing out my system. Problems and issues that arise are all listed on the blog as well as methods to correct them. For more information on synthetic rigging and how to fabricate it yourself, please check out the website www.riggingdoctor.com and search "synthetic standing rigging" in the search bar on the top right corner.
Is there any particular reason you don't use turnbuckles so the tension can be adjusted quickly and easily with any change in temperature? Tensioning the rigging using the winches and frapping knots seem very time consuming.
Turnbuckles would be nice, but we needed 11 of them and for our size, they cost around $100 each. To save on the cost, we went with deadeyes which cost about $24 in materials.
This is the most informative video I have watched in years. Even the comments have been helpful. GoodOnYa. Thanks.
Thank you for your well presented video. I had never heard of Dyneema before today when someone asked about it on Cruisers Forum. I am amazed. Love the concept. 15x stronger than steel, 1/5 the weight. 30 years as a rigger and charter captain but retired since 2000, so totally out of the loop on new innovations.
But still sailing...:)
15x stronger than steel _of the same weight_ . By diameter they are similar in strength, depending on the grade of stainless and dyneema.
I have an old steel ketch that still has lignum vitae deadeyes and as I re-rig, I can see your system being very helpful. I have struggled with whether to go with turnbuckles or not, but you have made me re-assess. It seems that the blend of traditional and modern materials may be appropriate. Thank you!
Super clear explenation and instructions. I am about to rig my own boat. Could not choose between steel and dyneema until now. You broke it down beautifully. Thank you from the Netherlands!
Glad to help you in your decision process :)
Very well done video. I think this synthetic rigging thing is going to blow up (as it should) for offshore sailors. Sailing and seaman/womanship is at its core about self sufficiency and I can tell you in the western Caribbean we might as well be on Mars when it comes to supplies. A few (hundred) feet of Dyneema has quickly jumped to the top of the 'oh shit' list. Sub'd and look forward to more videos!
I think the other great thing about synthetic rigging is it’s easy to store on your boat and you can also use it as haulage line in an emergency. What’s not to like ?
Great video. I was just sailing in 40 kt winds. the wind was so hard that the lee side spreader actually popped out of its housing and was lost. We didn't know this until we came about and nearly broke the mast. I have a 30 ft C & C. When we came about we noticed that the top of the mast was bent nearly 4 feet off center at the top. We quickly did a straight downwind sail to take the pressure off the mast, dropped the sails and connected the main sheet halyard to the port side rail to stabilize the mast. After we assessed the problem we realized that the set setscrew that held the port spreader failed, and the spreader got yanked out of its housing. Design not so good. A learning experience. Thanks again. Steve.
This is where dyneema is better IMO. It has less points of failure. As a climber, I use lots of different cordage and one thing we ALWAYS do is plan in redundancy. Now since dyneema is relatively cheap it might be possible to make a shroud that has 2 parallel dyneema cords that are tensioned appropriately. If one gets severed the other can take the load. This might be an overkill though as dyneema is stranded. But I’d love to hear thoughts on this. Wind will likely whistle through the 2 strands though !! My thinking is that you might be able to shrink the diameter down of the original by 1mm and then double it up. This would provide redundancy and make it cheaper (prices is a square law of diameter).
Definitely looking into that. Thank you. I replace my life lines with dynema almost ten years ago. I though it would be a good first test. I figured it would last about first years but it’s still going strong. Very happy with that.
Thanks guys!!! I not only learned a lot about synthetic rigging but rigging in general! PEACE OUT! Ü
Very interesting. A little back to the future, replacing natural fibers with space-age synthetic.
That is amazing. I am totally going to use Synthetic the next i rig my boat. Thank you for sharing :)
You got my Thumbs Up just because It will help your site. Way too much technical jargon for this old to comprehend!
Thank you. Wasn’t sure what to do with the head stay on my C22
Herbie you rock! I love this so much we use class 2 advised by you! Nice job doctor thank you thank you ❤u! Fair wind a day beautiful seas mate!
What a refreshingly normal couple. Informative video too. Thanks
Thanks! 😊
Bravo, Bravo, Bravo! Cheap way to get going and sail inexpensively while on the cheap to fix and replace.
Indeed, get out there and start cruising. Upgrade as you go if you want!
@@RiggingDoctor Where did you buy Dyneema from?
I got it at West Marine. With my corporate account there I get a discount and it is priced quite reasonably.
Loved the synthetic rigging work. You know one the coolest things to do in the Bahamas is right at Nassau. Atlantis has a marina, and for about 4.50/ft the entire crew gets a place to stay overnight, and free admission to the Atlantis water park. Just FYI! The waterpark and hotel room are normally like 1000 per person or something silly. Cheers!!
So you show up in your dinghy?
@@court2379 No you have to pay for a Marina Slip...
@@allynonderdonk7577 I was implying that the dingy is short, so the price would be low as a joke.
@@court2379 Ok I see...didn't get it until you explained it.
Herby, how'd you get to be so smart? Can't wait for the next painting video Maddie!
I’d like to replace our SS rigging with dyneema. A bit of a choice to eliminate roller furling altogether. Huge expense of multiple headsails. Too bad there isn’t a hardened, teflon (?) sleeve that will absolutely eliminate chafe and permit maintaining roller furler.
You need to write a book on your technical knowledge with step by step and pictures.This would help fund your fun.
You are at the 8 year mark. How's the rigging holding up? I've just bought some Dyneema to use on a small boat thanks to seeing some of your videos on splicing it.
It’s still going strong :)
I love it, thanks for all this information
Awesome video! Thank you for the information. I have always been nervous about SS rigging and this is definitely an option to consider.
Really interesting video, even for a novice sailor who doesn't understand any of the knot references. But as is the case with many of these sailing videos, nobody says anything about the relative costs -- both materials and, if you don't do it yourself, the install. Maybe it's in the comments below, but who wants to search them all.
I did a blog post a few years ago on just this very topic. Check it out with the link below:
www.riggingdoctor.com/life-aboard/2016/11/7/cost-of-conversion?rq=synthetic%20rigging%20conversion
That's cool. Where did you learn all this? Both the traditional stuff and how to use dyneema for your rigging. It's interesting that you are the test case for this. So far it looks like it's working out well!
The traditional stuff I learned in books, while the dyneema I learned while in dental school. One of our classes was “biomaterials” and we learned how to read material data sheets and then calculate the minimums needed for that material in various load scenarios.
This was all focused on metals and ceramics as we were designing dental bridges and partial dentures where you need to know the minimum cross sectional thickness of the connectors so that the prosthesis wouldn’t break.
I’m one of those people who rarely forgets something so that knowledge stuck with me!
I heard about dyneema and all of its wonderful properties and then got a hold of the material data sheet for it, and started to engineer the minimums and safe values for it. I then invented the shroud frapping knot to enable one to tension the rigging with a deadeye as well as figuring out how to make the splice to make the deadeye.
Then I tested it out with my boat and having a fair bit of confidence in the setup, set out to cross the Atlantic with it even though everyone was telling me that it wouldn’t work and I was going to die! 9 years later it is still going strong!
@@RiggingDoctor Wow, that's cool. Who woulda thought dental school would prepare you for sailing, but it makes sense. I'd think others would be interested in what you've done. We'll see if this catches on.
Great video, I'm new to sailing and this concept is right up my street. I love that it's doable for anyone with all those extra benefits including self checking for wear.
Aww... I got all excited at the mention of 'Deadeyes' only to be devastated by the lack of lignum vitae discs, much beloved by salty, old sea dogs. 😬
I really wanted to use them but I needed 7 holes for the cap shrouds and that would be a very large piece of wood! The Dyneema deadeyes only cost $24 to make, far less than it would have cost to buy the blocks of wood (but it would have been so salty looking)!
@@RiggingDoctor Arr... Deadeyes, ratlines and belaying pins, don't leave port wi'out 'em m'dear. Oops, it's not September 19th yet. 😜
Great video. I’m thinking about going with synthetic rigging on my boat. Thanks!
Thanks!
It’s a really reliable setup that we have put to the test and now I can confidently say that it works! Best of all, it will never corrode.
Starting to make dyneema ringing. Thanks for your video
Excellent!
There are norseman terminals that can also be rigged in the field with ss wire. Cheers from Northern California.
Sta-lok as well. For steel rigging, compression fittings, like Norseman and Sta-lok are the best. They give you the strength of steel but don’t have any of the stress hardening of swage fittings.
Hi Herby
Many thanks for this simple and instructive video. I’m on the van to purchase an Amel Maramu 48 which need new rigging and
after seeing your’s and Zingaro’s video, synthetic rigging is what I’ll choose. One question I have are related to the tension which must be achieved: did you use any measuring tool and which one?
Wish you both fair winds and safe sailing
I set the tension “by feel”. Basically you want the shrouds tight enough that the leeward stays go slack but not loose. If they go loose, you need to tighten them. If they stay tight, you need to loosen them.
Thanks for your video. You were mentioned by Sailing Zingaro, so I needed to see your video. I see that my question of whether you can use a Loos Tension Gauge on Synthetic Dyneema has already been answered!!! Now, I need to check out your blog...Others also suggest buying Brian Toss's book,"The Rigger's Apprentice" --- I found that reference by watching Project Atticus's videos on how to do Sta Lok rigging and calculations...I'm retired and planning for my first boat, an Alberg 30...
Alberg 30s are great boats! The riggers apprentice a great book as well for understanding rigging. If you rerig your “soon to be new to you” Alberg with synthetic, expect it to cost around $800 total for all the materials involved.
Zingaro has a very pretty looking system. I like how he color coded the port and starboard components :)
Let me know if you have any questions as you go!
Another great video! I am new to sailing and greatly appreciate all the information you two provide! Thank you!🤙🏾
It’s a fun world to come into!
I watched the splice video as well. These videos are a very good resource on rigging. Thanks for making them.
Merry Christmas
Thanks! Glad they were helpful 😎
Merry Christmas!
Can you do a update after 5 years how is your rigging held up what have you fixed, and what has been replaced
I just used dyneema for my Edson pedestal set up, to replace the steel.
I have been thinking about that. The reason I didn’t try it was the temperature fluctuations in my cruising areas. I couldn’t figure out how to keep the tension correct as it got cold, or avoiding the over tightening as it warms.
What was your work around? I would love to see pictures if you could send them to riggingdr@gmail.com.
I think it would be perfect there but I just couldn’t figure out how to get past these issues. But then again maybe it’s not a real issue at all (I have come across a few of those where I’m convinced it’s going to be an issue and then it was never an issue).
I would love to see how you set it up!
@RiggingDoctor I just tied a bowlin each end and used the adjustment on the eyebolts in the rudder wheel(quadrant) to take up the slack. I recommend really stressing it out to stretch out the knots and then re-adjust it snug. Shouldn't stretch enough to notice after that. I'm going to Avalon soon and that's about 32miles upwind so I'll keep you posted.
Sounds good! I would love to hear if this works because that would be a game changer.
well done. thanks. I will be switching over as soon as I can get my mast welded to change the attachment points.
whats the total-final diference in price comparing ss and dyneema standing rigging?
thanks. Felipe
Good video, what about using double braded Kevlar as a cover at the spreaders?
That would work very well and save you the time of applying the service to the stay.
A couple of observations Herb regarding the rigging as I have seen it on your boat:
1. Your spliced loops look very long? They should be very short - right down onto the thimble. No need to serve them if they are tight and remain there under tension.
2. The order you mentioned to tension stays is a bit concerning. The order I use is different. It is (on main mast at least)
Aft Lowers
Fwd Lowers
Cap shrouds
The reason for this, is due to tensioning forestays correctly. Like you, we have a babystay / inner forestay with a relatively large stay sail.
Tension the aft lower first, brings your inner forestay into tension, and also gives the correct fore and aft position of the mast itself.
Tension the fwd lower brings balance to the aft lower tension, giving a two triangulations that can provide adjustment to the mast position / inner forestay tension.
The cap shrouds should always be tensioned last, as it has little if any, effect on the forestay tensions, and can lead to improper mast bend and / or angle if done first.
The order later druing tuning is exactly the same.
1. The loops need the length to have enough tail buried. Ideally it would be tiny, but then the splice would slip apart.
2. They both get the job done, but if you start top down, then you start with the mast centered amidships. Getting it done and going sailing is all that matters!
Thanksgivings
Ran into you channel through watching, It's Time To Rebuild the Watermaker!! - (MJ Sailing - Ep 103), you guys were fantastic inviting others to join you on a rainy day. On that note I am so glad I found your channel Just in this video you have shared so much knowledge and Hereby is a rope handling master by all rights. please keep sharing.
Welcome aboard, friend!
Can you use a rigging tension gauge like the loos? In a hi performance trimaran I raced on 20 years ago we had Kevlar/technora stays with shrink tape/tube uv protection , not needed with dyneema/spectra but it could be useful for chafe?
The dyneema splices don’t appear to hold very tight on the SS thimbles. Is their anyway to improve that . I have used a adjustable technora back stay for years but for quick adjustability for different wind condition ( I race) means I would want to use turnbuckles I think. Definitively a flexible system for maintenance in far flung places!
Cheers warren
You certainly could slip a shrink tube over the stay to help with chafe protection.
The eye splices are a little loose to facilitate thimble replacement and because the thimble is not present when the splice is made, making it hard to make it snug enough without making the eye too snug. To tighten it up, you can tie a seizing knot at the throat.
Very well done video. Will email you as this format isn't overly conducive to more in-depth discussion.
Thanks for taking the time to put this out there and for contributing to the sailing community.
very well done.
How about putting a stainless steel pipe over synthetic rigging at the bow as a protection from the anchor? Could slide it up to inspect the rigging.
That is an option! I just put a turnbuckle there so that the lower portion is bronze instead of rope.
What’s not clear is what happens to the lashing tails. Are they tied in or is it just the frapping that locks them before you release the tension.
The frapping knot holds everything in place and the tails then become ornamental. They are tied over the frapping knot to protect and conceal it, but that knot knot is strictly ornamental.
I can't wait to get through 8 feet of snow to get to my boat so I can change my rigging to synthetic. I got about 4 kilometres of synthetic rope of various sizes and colours. I'm going to go crazy with it. Thanks for all the nice closeups and tips that will help me immensely . What are those frictionless eyes made from? Some special high density polymer ? or what ? Can they be printed with Graphite ink ? SS Eyes are so dam expensive here.Cheers
They are just plain old stainless steel eyes from West Marine. The big ones cost around $14 each, the smaller ones were only a few dollars.
You can use any polished metal surface in there, the only goals are to reduce friction and withstand thousands of crushing pounds.
If you have any questions along the way, feel free to email me and I can get back to you with detail photos of any parts you have questions with.
@@RiggingDoctor Thank you very much! I will email you to pick your brain when the time comes. Greatly appreciated ! Fair winds
the german yachtmagazin palstek.de had a nice article on the topic dynema rigging. You might get big problems with the peak loads at the points where you fix the dynema to the boat. the 7x19 stainless wires usually used have a lot of strech when there comes some power to the boat. You would never ty your boat to the dock with dynema because you might lose your clamps when some heavy swell will move the boat. you will use some polyester with 10 -30 % stretch to cut of the peak load. the palstek rigg doctors recommend to strenght the points of fixation the dynema a lot !!!
Okay so it was 3 years ago at the making of this video, 6 years have passed, how do you think the dynema had lasted? Thanks for making this video.. 😊🤙
It’s been great! Still sailing on the same rigging with minimal signs of wear
What I would be interested in, is a hybrid standing rigging. Instead of the stainless cables, I want synthetic but still use the stainless turnbuckles and such. I think that is an interesting alternative that could catch on in Germany. Although our boat is in Greece
The hybrid is very nice. You have the ease of quick tuning with the ease of inspection of synthetic
@@RiggingDoctor So I want to ask here if I understand it right. I could use turnbuckles and just Möbius spliced eyes in the Dyneema line? You do the same in your forestay right? Want to buy my first boat next year and start sailing.
I love your videos and this one is especially helpful. I'm heading back to our boat next month, after 5 years away, to replace my rigging to dynema and swap the diesel to electric.
I wanted to head down there (guaymas, mx) with the dynema I will need with me. Do you know I good source, you would recommend. And what sizes would you suggest? My boat is a Cal Cruising 36. I'm not sure if I will reuse the current turnbuckles.
Can you send me an email to riggingdr@gmail.com?
Very good sharing diff options
Just subscribed after learning a great deal from you over the years. Curious to know if there is any difference in the sound a dyneema rig makes? I've noticed in other videos something of an aeolian harp effect. Have you experienced anything like this?
I have only had this happen when I didn’t have a sail bent onto the headstay. It was a rather strange sound but as soon as I had the sail on it, that seemed to be enough dampening to hush the whole rig.
Enjoyed this very much. thanks
Great video! Lots of information. We will be following for further updates!
yep, I did the same!!
Hey guys I have been looking up and down in the comments but can't see anything about inspections and when you know its time to replace.
We talk about that a lot in our other videos. When Dyneema reaches the third phase of its lifecycle, it will begin to creep a lot. Until that point, you have rock solid rigging that doesn’t need to be replaced yet.
With inspection, your main issue is chafe. Keep it from chafing and you are in good shape 😉
A dedicated video on inspecting synthetic rigging is a great suggestion. Thanks :)
@@RiggingDoctor thanks final question for the moment I understand any chafing is bad but is there an acceptable amount?
Yes there is and there are guides available from Samson which go over the amount of chafe and it’s effect on the strength of the line.
www.riggingdoctor.com/life-aboard/2015/10/16/how-much-chafe-is-too-much
What did you use for chafe protection on the headstay? And then where did you get that?
This is what I used and I got it from West Marine: www.westmarine.com/new-england-ropes-dyneema-anti-chafing-sleeves-P002_071_006_503.html?queryID=347cda62b8c29396fae99892aa9a731f&objectID=9059353&indexName=production_na01_westmarine_demandware_net__WestMarine__products__en_US
TFS well presented and I think most can understand what your doing with the rigging. One question I have is can you use a self furling jib on the forestays or will it abrade the dyneema. The way your setup to handle lines from the cockpit would lend itself to having self furling on both jibs. I do thing the weigh loss with the dyneema is a good way to lower your center of gravity.
The furler can chafe the Dyneema and there would be no way to inspect it. As far as I know, there is still no furler over Dyneema.
Hi, do you still like Dyneema rigging now as much as you did when you made this video? I have recently bought a boat which needs its rigging replaced (the current stuff is 15 years old) and I'm on a tight budget. I'm confident I could do the splicing and ropework, tensioning is new to me but im sure I could find people to help. Weight aloft isn't a massive bonus for me (25' yacht doesn't have much weight in the rig) but the cost savings are and I'm willing to put in a bit of work.
Still just as happy if not more! Do you have a deck stepped mast? With deck stepped, I recommend not doing synthetic unless you’re in the same climate year-round
@RiggingDoctor good to hear! it is a deck stepped mast (on a tabernacle). I'll be taking it out of the water over the winter each year and I live on the south coast of the UK so there wouldn't be a huge temperature range throughout the season.
I expect I would have to re-tension it each spring, is it likely to get too tight on hot days?
When you spliced your stays, did you need to pre-tension the stays to set the splice? I'm reading where I might need to apply 2k lbs or more to the stay to 'set the splice' before using. What's your experience with this? Also, any tips on getting around t-ball fittings?
This is a post about the cost of conversion but it was on a bot with T-balls so it goes over all the added pets needed to make it work on the mast side of the stay.
As for setting the splice, you don’t have to but it will save A LOT of time. If you don’t, you will be taking creep out of the line for about a month. If you set the splice, it becomes just a few weeks and very minor during that time.
To set splices, I attach the stay to a tree and the other end to an old F150, then I drive away from the tree slowly until the stay goes tight and the truck stops. I measure on the ground where the tires meet the ground and do this until the tires stop advancing. Then I leave the truck in neutral on a hill held up by the stay and tree. I leave it like this overnight and come the next day it’s pretty much done creeping.
Ok it’s now 2022 and the rigging on your boat is 7 years old. Have you had to repair any of the standing rigging and is it still in use with no problems tho king about doing this with my little sailboat and would definitely like your input Love the vids keep it up
It’s still going strong! Budget wise, deadeyes are cheapest, but if you can afford it turnbuckles with deadeyes will make your life easier.
We haven’t had to replace any synthetic stays but we did have to replace our inner forestay (which was still steel) with Dyneema back in 2020. All the other stays are still from 2015 :)
@@RiggingDoctor outstanding. Think I’m going to go this way. Thanks for the reply. Stay safe out there
Very worth my time, its odd that the rigging will contract in heat visa versa.
Yes, that is pretty much the only “strange” feature of the material. The good thing is that’s the only big thing to worry about 😅
Hello guys!, thanks a lot for this informative video! (I understand its 3 years old by now btw). Two questions: 1. you mention you have to service the spreaders protection; so..How often do you service the dyneema protection in the spreaders?.
The second question: It is my understanding that Dyneema gets degraded with the sun light; how do you guys deal with this; would it make sense to cover somehow the rigging to protect it from UV lighting?.
Again, many many thanks! :D
Hello! While it’s an older video, it all still holds true.
Service is when you wrap another line tightly around the one doing the work. www.riggingdoctor.com/life-aboard/2015/9/1/line-service
I haven’t had to do anything in those areas and we’re entering the 7th year now!
As for UV, yes and no. The outer 0.1μm gets destroyed and protects the rest of the line, so there is no loss in line strength and it’s easier to inspect without a cover hiding it.
@@RiggingDoctor sweet!, thanks for the quick reply! =)
WHAT DO YOU USE TO MEASURE THE TENSION ON EACH LINE ? SO ALL SETS ARE OF EQUAL TENSION , BALANCED ?
Very old-school, very nice..!
I see nothing but people gushing over trendy dyneema standing rigging, but there are drawbacks. Has terrible abrasion resistance (compared to steel), sub-par UV resistance (compared to steel), needs to be constantly re-tensioned, so way higher maintenance vs. steel. You have to use your winches to tension a dyneema rig? That makes turnbuckles look genius. The only advantages are light weight and the ability to DIY, which is only really an advantage over rod, not wire because you can DIY wire with mechanical swage fittings. A lot of the same applies to dyneema lifelines. Do you really want to bet your life on something with poorer abrasion resistance than a genoa sheet? Sure, when your boat is finished it'll look super DIY and you can show off what a master craftsmen you are on the dock, but is it really worth it? There's a reason you don't see much dyneema standing rigging and lifelines in racing (actually banned by some regulations). Yeah, many race boats are using synthetic carbon fiber rigging, but that's not the same thing at all. Dyneema is great for running rigging on all boats-an amazing material for that purpose- but probably not a good idea as standing rigging for boats over day-sailor or dinghy size. Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should be done. I'm glad I went with steel when I replaced my lifelines and standing rigging recently.
There is nothing wrong with steel, but I’m afraid you are misinformed about Dyneema. I haven’t needed to adjust my standing rigging in years (2017 was the last time I tuned it). I have sailed full time across the Atlantic and into the Mediterranean on this same tune for over three years now. We are about to sail back across the Atlantic and I’m not going to be tuning it before we go because it doesn’t need it.
As for chafe resistance, there are different types of Dyneema and the type you should use for standing Rigging has very good chafe resistance, actually on par with steel cable. I put chafe sleeves on the headstay because I wanted the added protection from the soft hanks but I have seen others who use uncovered Dyneema with bronze hanks chafing away on the stay for years and they have yet to be chafed to the point of needing replacement.
As for UV, Dyneema has no loss of strength after long term exposure to UV light. The color will fade but the strength remains.
I personally think lifelines are an ideal application for Dyneema because it is soft, light, and much stronger than the equivalent size of steel wire. This means that it’s safer as it’s less likely to break if you need it to catch you. The biggest reason why Dyneema is superior to steel in lifelines is because there are never “meat hooks” in Dyneema, but when a wire breaks, the deep cut that can result when flesh touches it is very dangerous at sea!
As for the application of standing rigging, I feel they are equal. Neither is superior because both are engineered for the same task and both need to be inspected regularly. Steel will eventually corrode and crack in under ten years while Dyneema will last much longer than that, but eventually meet its end once the material reaches the final phase in its material life (about 15 years minimum, but it can go longer).
Yes, it looks cool, but it has many more qualities than that. Our Synthetic Standing Rigging is now 6 years old and going strong while our marina neighbor has a cracked swage from crevice corrosion at 3 years of age. We are leaving on our transatlantic while he is waiting to have his stay replaced.
@@RiggingDoctor same as steel with regard to chafe resistance? Are you serious? A reasonably sharp knife could bring down an entire dyneema rig in less than a minute. Take said knife to steel cable or rods and...good luck. Of course the knife scenario probably would never happen, but do accidents happen on boats? To sharp/abrasive objects ever accidentally rub, make contact with shrouds and stays? The fact is dyneema isn't even close to steel in chafe and abrasion resistance. To say they're equal isn't true. Just flat out false. Numerous racing associations banned dyneema lifelines for lack of chafe resistance vs steel, so I'm not going out on a limb. I'm not arguing that dyneema can't function as standing rigging, or that it's not a brilliant material, I'm just pointing out that there are drawbacks. Maybe it isn't a good idea for everyone to have something that if it falls can kill you (your rig) held up by something with very weak abrasion resistance compared to the alternative. Everything on boats has pros and cons.... plenty of cons with steel rigging. Just thought I'd point out some of dyneema's, which are not really getting enough representation on here.
Charles Patterson FYI, a knife is not chafe. A knife on Dyneema and a knife on steel is a different story from actual chafe in your scenario of a file on Dyneema and a file on steel. All you need to do is file enough to break a single wire and 1x19 is out of commission! Dyneema is very easy to inspect and chafe is easy to grade and determine when it needs to be replaced.
Oil rigs are anchored with Dyneema rodes and cargo ships are moored with Dyneema lines because of the strength and inspectability of the material. The don’t use chain or steel cables because Dyneema works reliably.
It’s a shame that racing associations have banned Dyneema lifelines, thankfully we are not racing and can use things that work instead of things that are allowed.
That knife argument often comes up. Steel rigging can be completely cut down in a few seconds using a portable grinder.
Chaffe can be eliminated by adding a cover (polythene or dyneema) and rope Service at the shrouds. I have a wooden service tool from Germany.
Can there be any problems with synthetic rigging old noodley racing mast?
hey...so if you just have 1 sheet winch...you just need to anchor other end? 🤔👍🏴☠️⛵ also would this work on a wooden mast? 🤔 i already replaced the running back stays with dyneema to lessen the mainsail chaffing..👍
The second winch is just an anchor. You could use a cleat to get the job done.
A wooden mast should work great as it expands and contracts in a way similar to Dyneema so the temperature changes shouldn’t have such a drastic effect on tension.
I really enjoy this episode. Probably why it's my 3rd time watching it, or is it 4. Either way. Thanks for the information you toos.
Good video. I believe dyneema and synthetic rigging is the future.
Where you purchase the dynnema and how is holding on as of today?
I buy mine at West Marine. The rope you want is New England Ropes STS-HSR 3/8” or 9mm.
Buying it by the spool gives you a good discount and if you are buying in bulk, you can usually negotiate a better price. Ask them about giving you “port supply price” on the spool since it’s a bulk sale.
Other option is to wait for them to have their sales (Labor Day and Memorial Day are the two big sales where the discount is better than what I would pay with my Port Supply discount).
It’s currently 7 years old and 15,000nm sailed on it, and it’s still going strong. Steel rigging needs to be replaced every 10 years or 10,000nm, so in that sense we would be halfway through our second rig (if we were steel) but instead we are still sailing strong!
@@RiggingDoctor Thank you, I should be getting my chair soon get all the measurements and order a 600' spool. If you in Puerto Rico I'll contract you.
Fantastic informative video. We've had some rod rigging repairs carried for the reasons you mentioned. didn't even consider Dyneema.. We will next time, if only for the weight saving. Have you ever had Dyneema shrouds fail catastrophically. What is the breaking strain compared to stainless steel and rod rigging. Very good review, well done.
I have never had a catastrophic failure with dyneema. Off of Hatteras, our anchor chafed on the headstay deadeye and sawed through a few of the strands. We knew it was crippled and kept the loads to a minimum on it. I consider that chafed headstay a failure because we couldn't use it like normal, but the stay never broke and nothing fell down, so I also consider the whole situation a success. Chafe is very easy to spot as the line looks visibly worn and fuzzy, whereas steel has a microscopic hairline fracture.
Thanks for watching and let me know if you ever have any questions in the future!
P.S. We will be doing a video soon on spotting and repairing failing dyneema. One of our lifelines is in need of some work and we will be covering the whole process. Be sure to subscribe so that you are notified as soon as it's uploaded.
To answer the one question Herby missed, Dyneema is 15x stronger than steel, but only 1/5 of the weight.
very interesting! I had no idea, thank you for the great presentation!
Thanks for the video i was one of the ones who was asking for the info when i watched your trapping video. Good stuff.
Frapping. Auto correct stinks. Lol
7:01 a Moebius Brummel (sp?) eyesplice? Intriguing. Wold love to see you do a how-to video on your various unusual splices, knots, etc. And, if may ask, you're a pretty young guy...where did you learn all this, and how long have you been sailing?
Stay tuned, soon we’re going to be putting out a daily video for a week on just this topic!
I learned some of the splices from reading various books and then I invented the splice to make the deadeye and the knot to tie off the lashings. So far the rigging is 5 years old and still going strong with over 10,000 miles on it! 🙂
That is so awesome, and inspiring!
So it's no good in the winter unless you somehow make it work.... what is the UV rating? In another video it shows folks pulling the line with one end tied to a tree the other to their truck to pull the tension or stretch the line before hanging it. Interesting concept the synthetics.... still some kinks to work out.
Yep, winter stretch is pretty intense. The Rigging goes slack in the cold and comes back to tension in the spring. If it’s too cold for the Rigging it’s too cold for me!
UV resistance is fine, DSM has found no detrimental effects of UV exposure to uncovered Dyneema.
The truck and tree method was me on the blog, also a few of our early videos (I don’t know if those early videos are still public though)
Only just found this, REALLY interesting stuff. I would like to know how this may or may not affect your Insurance. We all know insurance companies get a bit anal about SS rigging and the 10 year rule of thumb. I'd be interested to know if insurance companies would be capable of recognising or at least understanding the principles and properties of the Dyneema rig in order to insure the vessel.
They do! And they like it!
It’s still new stuff so they don’t have the time limit part yet.
That is a great video! Thanks guys.
What are your thoughts on New England Ropes, 7mm 'heat-set' dyneema for the Standing rigging on an Alberg 30? That was suggested to me by Kraken Structures, after I saw them mentioned on Sailing Zingaro. I am still boat searching and exploring ideas...Have to get caught up on your 'regen' videos, too...
That would work great. I used 9mm here for a 45 foot boat. The Alberg has a lot lower load on the rigging, having less ballast and a much shorter mast. They also make excellent sailboats.
Let me know if you have any questions about the conversion, I would be happy to help as a reference.
Lovely : ) Thx : ) What is the name of the other boat?
Windpuff
@@RiggingDoctor LOLOLOL I have to have misunderstod here. I belived you knew of another boat that had syntetick rigging and your boat. If so i wood like to know the name of the other boat please : )
From memory, it was something like apteryx. It was many years ago and that boat got sold/converted back to steel.
It was a yawl that sailed to Norway and was sold.
@@RiggingDoctor As i can tell after googling the name, its more then 1 sailingboattype witeh that name : ( Butt thx for trying : )
Thank you. Very educational.
Great video very informative. I notice you use "standard" Thimbles on your rigging, my question is was this a purely economic choice or would you have chosen the cast polished thimbles given the choice thanks
It was based on cost. The regular thimbles cost me $1.50 each where a sailmakers thimble cost me $12 each.
The regular thimbles crush down until the ends meet, then they stop closing. They work well unless they are hit hard from the side and cause the ends to slip next to each other. Under the tension they hold, the thimble buckles and crushes, then needs to be replaced.
A sailmakers thimble would be far stronger and safer, but cost significantly more where I was when I made the rigging.
@@RiggingDoctor thanks for the reply I am considering all this stuff in preparation for purchasing my first big boat at 1.50 i see the attraction my concern is risk of chafing but at that price would be easy to swap them out if they show signs of deformation
Indeed! We carry a bunch of spares with us. The cost of all of them and spares was less than the same sailmakers thimbles.
I use forged thimbles on my heat set dyneema rigged F 31. Overkill probably, but they're smooth and strong and cost is reasonable. Defender industries.
Dear friends good morning. Very nice and helpfull video. Being mainly a regata sailor, precision mast tuning is important. Tensioning the rigging this way in not so accurate and repeatabile. Shrouds will give me the precision I need. Could I use turnbuckles to tension all of the rigging like you did to your forestay? Your opinion is much apreciated. Thank you in advance.
Turnbuckles can certainly be used and will make the process of tuning much faster and easier.
The reason I didn’t use turnbuckles is because they were out of our budget, so this helps show a way that it can be done without turnbuckles.
With turnbuckles, you either get your splice perfectly measured so the throw of the turnbuckle is sufficient, or you simply cut your stays shorter and have the lashing and deadeye which attaches to the turnbuckle. The latter arrangement makes the construction process much easier since the lashing will correct any inaccuracies in the length measurement.
You could think of the lashing as the macro adjustment and the turnbuckle as the micro adjustment.
@@RiggingDoctor Thank you for your reply. Fair winds to your life.
What about the forestay and hank on sails?
They get a chafe sleeve cover and work just fine. Our hank on headsails have over 15,000nm on them with no signs of chafe to the headstays.
@@RiggingDoctor Thanks for the information
I’m new to sailing and I think I need a beginner tutorial before I watch this. Any recommendations?
ua-cam.com/video/MctpeFJ4AuY/v-deo.html
This one shows the whole installation and all the parts involved so you can get a feel for what is happening here.
Awesome I was thinking about this! You guys are great.
dynema for life lines too
Why not have galvanized or bronze turnbuckles on the bottom to make tensioning faster? Seems like it would be best of both worlds, no crevice corrosion, ease and cheap replaceability.
I would love to have bronze turnbuckles but they are above my budget.
If you want to add turnbuckles, they would be added below the deadeye.
You would use the lashings to take out the slack and the turnbuckle to tension. If the turnbuckle ever got two blocked, simply open it all the way, take out the slack again and tension the turnbuckle once more.
It really would be the best of both worlds.
Ooooooo I like this I thought about this but didn't know if it was possible or that anyone does it. The question is, is it cheaper.
It is if you do it yourself. New steel rigging for my boat was going to be $18,000. I re-rigged with synthetic for $4,400 including a full spool (600 feet) of spare Dyneema.
Excellent. Can I ask what it cost!
$4,400 when I did it in synthetic. The cost to have it done for me in steel at the time (in Annapolis, MD) was $18,000
Have you ever thought of using a 3/4" threaded rod on each side of the mast on order to raise the mast up and down to adjust rigging tension for temperature variants ?
I have not considered that option
How much vertical travel of the mast do you think would be adequate to take up the slack and release the tension . I'm considering making a custom boot for the bottom of the mast.
Robert Orzech it would only need a few millimeters to take up the slack. Large yachts and catamarans actually use a hydraulic ram to accomplish just this. The issue isn't going to be creating the tension, but supporting the forces and torquing of heeling with the attachments of the rod. On a small boat, it is doable, but for our size, the lashings is actually easier than engineering a lifting mast step.
When I looked at my mast step , it looks so flimsy (to me), So If I add anything to it ,I will make sure it's twice as strong as original .Thanks for you response .
Could you skip the toggles and go directly into the tangs? If so it would save even more weight at the top of the mast where it has the most effect on heeling. Cons?
Yes, but the tangs for the lowers are close together and the eyes would rub. The toggle simply flips the eye by 90*.
The toggles at the top are not necessary but they looked a little less “chafey” than the tang of the eye were to ever rub on it.
In steel rigging, the toggles are mandatory because they provide a universal joint at the end and greatly reduce the incidence of stress fractures in the end fittings and wires. Dyneema won’t fracture, so it’s more focused on space. 1/2 a pound at the top of the mast is about 25 foot pounds on a 50 foot mast, so small numbers can make big differences!
Definitely try to use the least amount of parts that will safely accomplish the task at hand.
Great answer! Cheers!
The Brummel splice at 7:14 doesn’t look properly locked, it may go slack if it moves to finally locked position. Any problems after a while?
They have been 7 years and thousands of miles.
This rig is actually the prototype for synthetic rigging. When I made it, I was told by Colligo that it couldn’t be done on a boat my size with deadeyes. The reason those are not fully seated is because I was testing the bury portion to make sure it would hold appropriately. If the bury ever slipped, the lock would close and take the load and I would know that the bury had slipped and should be even longer. As you can see it has been holding up for all these years and never budged!
@@RiggingDoctor thanks for replying, good to know. I splice my Kitelines like thisbut I don’t bury that much line. Therefore I make Shure to lick it properly
Hello. Super video, and synthetic rigging will be perfect for me on my next "old" boat. Very informative and good video.
Only one question, why not "turn buckles" on all lines to tighten them. Is it just a cost issue or are there other considerations.
Hope to hear from you.
Norway.
Just a cost issue. For my size, they were $100 per turnbuckle where a deadeye was $24 in materials.
With 11 turnbuckles, the choice was simply based on costs.
@@RiggingDoctor Thanks for taking the time to answer :) I am not to worried by cost, but want to be able to do the rigging my self. So a combination of Dynema and TurnBuckles will be my preffered way I think. Thanks again.
I am in the prosess of goin through all your good videos. Keep em coming.
Greatings from Norway.
To make them for turnbuckles, your measurements and calculations need to be 100% perfect. I did that with the headstay and most of the fabrication time was spent counting threads to get it perfect.
Then you have to get all the stretch and creep out before you install them. This can be done but it is labor intensive and needs some hefty equipment (or a tree on a hill and a heavy vehicle to hang by the stay for a few days while the creep occurs).
If you have dead eyes above the turnbuckles, you have more flexibility with lengths and you can get all the creep out on the boat.
The dead eyes take out the major stretch while the turnbuckles do the tensioning.
@@RiggingDoctor Yes, that makes the most sense to me.👍🏻
Tensioning the synthetic rigging seems like it would be a nightmare. Also I don't know how you can properly check for perpendicularity on the water.
That video will be coming out soon ;)
Would you be able to mix/match synthentic with steel standing rigging?
For example, replacing the lowers with synthetic, while leaving the uppers as stainless. Or replacing the shrouds with synthetic and the fore/aft stays with stainless?
I replaced my lowers last year, but the uppers were swaged in place and I couldn't take them off without cutting them. I would consider replacing the uppers with synthetic.
My forestay requires a metal stay for the roller furling that is presently in place, so I probably would stay with the same.
But my aft stay could be easily replaced with a system like you mentioned.
Is it fine to mix/match or are there some other considerations that I should know about?
The headstay and backstay can mix and match, but shrouds should all be one type.
Synthetic and steel expand differently as temperatures change. Your mast will only be in tune if it is the temperature you set it at. This means you would need to tune the Rigging every time you went out because of temperature changes.
If they are all steel or all synthetic, then they will all change the same with temperature and the mast will remain in tune.
@@RiggingDoctor Thanks! I'll consider it as an option! I think it will be a good match for my Contessa 26. As boats get larger, are there limits to when synthetic stops being appropriate? Is it the same considerations for a small boat like mine vs, say a 45' steel sailboat vs something larger like a 52' Amel vs a 60' super yacht?
Jordan Harkness everything just gets bigger and more expensive. On your contessa, this will work great.
The reduction of weight aloft will make her more stable and even more stout of a little circumnavigator! A friend of mine has a contessa 26 and they are solid and sea worthy!
I would like to know the impact the sun has, particularly in the tropics, on dyneema!!!
6 years and so far so good!! We’ll be going to the Caribbean next so we’ll be able to show you :)
Old but great posting.
Thank you!
Great video. I love the thought of DIY rigging. My boat is over due. You seem to know what your talking about. What are your credentials?
I learned rigging a few years back and invented a knot and a splice that make it possible to rig and tension with dyneema without turnbuckles. I started a rigging company and worked part time as a rigger for a few years before we went cruising (main job is dentistry).
Now I'm cruising and simultaneously testing out my system. Problems and issues that arise are all listed on the blog as well as methods to correct them.
For more information on synthetic rigging and how to fabricate it yourself, please check out the website www.riggingdoctor.com and search "synthetic standing rigging" in the search bar on the top right corner.
Is there any particular reason you don't use turnbuckles so the tension can be adjusted quickly and easily with any change in temperature? Tensioning the rigging using the winches and frapping knots seem very time consuming.
Turnbuckles would be nice, but we needed 11 of them and for our size, they cost around $100 each. To save on the cost, we went with deadeyes which cost about $24 in materials.