By today's standards, Zeus is a seriously entitled deadbeat dad. He's a bad guy from a TV drama. And not one of the regular ones either. He's in it for like one episode to maybe give another character some tragic backstory then he's never mentioned again.
The might makes right mentality explains a lot about why imperial Europeans and British isles folk included Greek humanities in their vaunted classical education. 😒
@@floydharper1216 oh of course, I just thought it was ironic, as you’d expect someone with as much literary knowledge as Red to be a humanities major or something. Nothing wrong with diverging from your degree on your life path though Plus hey, we don’t know what she does as her main non-UA-cam job, she could be an accountant for all we know 💁♀️
Lol don't get me wrong I'm not criticizing and I know what you mean, it is kinda incongruous. But yeah I sort of figure the math degree is for her career and what you see here on UA-cam is her passion project. She is extremely knowledgeable about philosophy and literature
I think that highlights her intelligence. She is/seems to be pretty intelligent and knowledegable, which was impressive enough, but the fact that her education is in something completely unrelated to writing means that this whole channel is based off her learning about a hobby, which is more impressive.
That "quitting an addiction is seen as heroic" got me thinking Villain: God.. what have I been doing? I've been getting this all wrong! Sidekick: What do you mean, boss? Villain: This is all so destructive.. I'm hurting.... I need to stop this. Sidekick: You're gonna stop killing innocent civilians? Villain: What? God, no. What do you take me for? I'm quitting my smoking, it's really unhealthy for me. Killing people still boosts my mental health, ya know.
I think it was Roger Eberts who pointed out that in gritty crime stories, the detective is always _trying_ to quit smoking. That's why one of my favourite small details in film history is that Michael Douglas's character in _Basic Insctint_ casually accepts Sharon Stone's cigarrette while they're in bed. Trying to quit smoking was part of his characterization as someone struggling with dark impulses and self-destructive tendencies, so when Stone's character makes him smoke again it simbolizes that the self-destruction won over
Ok yeah I need some kind of spinoff series turned into a slice-of-life where we see the villain continue to be a horrible person but also learns to increase the pay to his employees and how to home cook a healthy meal.
"If you're writing a character, write the character. Maybe they'll be seen as an anti-hero, maybe they won't." This Trope Talk really helped. It pulled a mental weight off my shoulder.
Personally, if your characters leave the audience having different viewpoints on them(who's right or wrong, are they a hero or villain etc) and just generally making the audience THINK , then you've succedeed as a writer. Of course thats going under the assumption that that's what you want for your story, there's nothing wrong with having objectively good or evil characters
Yeah after a while, you realize to just do whatever you want to do. Sure things may end up in some neat little boxes, but so long as you write the character that YOU WANT to write, that's all that really matters. If you ask me, saying you want an 'antihero' or you want a 'paragon' is meaningless since labels like those restrict creativity and don't give you the freedom to create the kinds of complexities that maybe you want.
I can relate. I've been putting off continuing writing the adventures of an OC of mine because she's supposed to be this questionable character, but I feel like I've been making her make less sense.
This is part of why critics say Anakin starts his first scene of Attack of the Clones as a villain, which is kind of tough given the entire story is his Grand And Tragic Fall... it's like a film called 'ball falls of table' where it starts with it on the ground. But looking at it across the whole series imparts more meaning.
Both Anakin and Palpatine are antiheroes. Only Palpatine goes to greater lengths to bring peace and order to galaxy, so he is seen only as a villain from Jedi/rebels point of view. He starts as a senator in corrupt disfunctional republic with slaves and class systems, and he turns it into confederacy of independent systems, where law works for everybody. Empire did destroyed a planet, but we don't know the scope of conflict, so it might be perfectly justified.
@@simonegreco1958 He is villain, because "heroes" said he is. And we see everything from their point of view. All of them lie almost constantly (most of what Obi says in OT are lies). They even have discussions about lying and keeping secrets (not telling senate about Sith). They don't care about slavery (no slavery in OT), they enforce will of senate with force, but not actual law (Naboo and probably all separatist systems were left without support of republic). In OT, local systems enforce law, and empire keeps them from fighting each other. In prequels, Jedi murder whoever they want, completely unchecked. On Tatooine, people get killed, and taken, and no authority cares. In OT, law enforcement is everywhere. And they are interested in actual murderers, smugglers (Han), and terrorists (Leia), and not random members of religion (Yoda, Obi Wan), until they commit actual crime. To be fair, Darth Vader is a loose cannon, and he murders people, because he feels like it, but other things we see that empire does, might be justified. Difference between Jedi and Sith is, that Jedi demand absolute obedience, and don't know, how to solve problems, other than with lightsaber. Sith give you a choice to decide. And they are interested in solving problems. There is a rule of law and order in empire, unlike in republic. And Anakin was always keen to solve a problems (his mother, Padme's assassin), while Jedi were telling him to do nothing (especially Yoda).
Funnily enough thats why Garth Ennis was drawn to the Punisher in the first place. And probably wrote the greatest version of him too for that reason lol
i kinda want a villain who's plans always end up backfiring making him seem more like a good guy. steal candy from a baby? candy's poisoned, baby saved. steal baby? abusive parents, baby saved. push lady off a building? the push she needed to unlock powers of flight, she's now your sidekick and the baby's adopted mother while you're the adoptive father with the adoptive parents sharing a purely platonic/aesthetic relationship
Actually, antiheroes are defined by falling into the category of “pulls into mcdonalds drive through as children cheer, orders one black coffee and leaves”
Dudebros would be a lot less angry all the time if they finished their transformation into classical Greek lifestyles and just lived off the grid, supported each other's fitness regime, and fell in love with each other and wrote love poems and homoerotic plays about each other. Ok so admittedly we'd be annoyed all over again when a big, muscled, nude army of hot gay warriors tried to take over a Walmart BUT STILL
@@WrathofFenrir99 ...idk about Spartans, but Greeks weren't just gay lol. Half the time their gods are getting it on with literal animals and then giving birth to literal animals too. I'm honestly not exactly sure if their sexuality is a good standard...
actually while in Iliad archery is explicitly mocked, in the final scenes of Odyssey it is portrayed as badass, which is one of many arguments in an academic debate for those two to be composed (achieve agreed upon more or less canonical form) in different period and by different authors due to discernable shift in the paradigm of a hero. Counter argument being that, suitors killed with arrows where thus disposed of in a kinda degrading way.
@@jameseddieson33 I like me, too. I'm also proud of my comment on one of the SCP videos about a living entity made of metal links, where I referred to him as a 'Chain Male'.
Red: “There’s actually one character who perfectly illustrates how difficult it is to pin down specific qualities as heroic or unheroic...” *sees Obi-Wan Kenobi* Me: *Stares in Confusion* Red: “...and that character is none other than Anakin Skywalker” Me: I’ve been bamboozled, a surprise for sure, but a welcome one
Obi-wan is the quintessential anti-hero. He embodies a trait typically not seen as heroic, being a master troll. He has a bad attitude and doesn't uphold a moral code, the jedi code being "there is no emotion, there is peace. " and "There is no passion, there is serenity", but Obi-wan's a pretty sarcastic guy who points out the general bullshit people are trying to pull, and that's pretty edgy for a jedi. He's also a Guardian, which is the most aggressive and violent role a jedi can take. He's also very self destructive. As a mentor he told Anikan "don't try it", but when put in a similar but worse situation he himself tried it, knowing the downsides. He tics *all* the boxes.
What I thought I’d learn: what an antihero is. What I actually learned: CHARTS ARE FUN DUDES!!! Edit: this is my most liked comment, and it’s about charts. This is the power of charts my friends.
So antiheroes are the magenta of characters; not a “real” archetype with a specific niche on the spectrum, but what our brains use to fill the in between
@@glanni I have, and have also been taught since before this website existed. Magenta is as much a part of the spectrum as any other color. It's one of the secondary colors actually. The closest edge of the spectrum to it is tertiary color Violet, which is higher energy and lower wavelength than Magenta, and Violet is definitely on the spectrum. The easy thing to remember here is that if it isn't on the spectrum, it isn't visible to human eyes.
Or pedantic depending on how you wanna write him. You can use one of his crowning moments to make him almost blatantly admit to a God Complex and treat this "The world is so frail I have to hold back" idea as straight up "I'm so much better than you that I have to lower myself to your level".
@TheThoughtPalace Uhhh... I'm pretty sure Superman does not know how to cure all diseases. Nor how to stop war, in any way besides just delivering an ultimatum that no one is allowed to war anymore. In fact, nothing I've seen suggests he's exceptionally intelligent at all.
@TheThoughtPalace Smart would be actually demonstrating an ability to come up with creative solutions to problems and out think opponents. Superman demonstrates a consistently unexceptional ability to do this. If he was ACTUALLY smarter than any human, Batman and Luthor wouldn't be outsmarting him all the time. The fact that Zod is so often a straight-up moron in his plans further disproves the idea of kryptonian hyper-intelligence.
@TheThoughtPalace Oh no, I've never particularly liked superman. I just think it's weird that you're criticizing him for not finding a cure for cancer when it doesn't seem likely to me that he could even do that. Superman's hyper-intelligence just sounds like something some writer put in without thinking about it and then forgot about because it didn't actually make sense.
My theatre teacher has a pretty interesting definition for an anti-hero: a character whose ends are noble enough for the audience to justify the means. The converse, of course, is that an antivillain is when the audience can no longer justify the means and so they cross the very fine line to villainy.
That, that is an interesting 10:36 definition of something I don’t normally enjoy, and it makes sense, that teacher needs a massive raise for increasing the power of The Art Of Writing.
Those definitions sound bizarre? An anti-hero is someone who does the right thing and fights for justice but has traits that doesn't look all to pleasant. Frank Castle is what comes to my mind. An anti-villain is someone who while an enemy and a threat to the good guys they have noble qualities to them that can make them sympathetic like honor, caring about their friends and fighting for a well-meaning goal.
@@dj_koen1265 Iron Man is an antivillain. He never does anything that isn't in direct service to himself or the people he claims (Happy, Pepper, Rhodey, Peter, and very briefly Phil). Any heroism he engages in is incidental to either protecting or avenging those people, or to absolve himself of guilt. He is willing to murder somebody he knows is innocent in order to get his revenge as well. The fact that he shot Falcon because Vision permanently disabled Warmachine is by itself all the evidence you need to prove he's not a hero.
Ironically, because Ancient Greece did not put such an emphasis on them being bi or gay, this line is one that always catches me off guard. It isn't such a minor character trait to their characters that I believe it might be how it passed under the Karen radars for all these years, while The Punisher ruffled their feathers into creating another subcategory of hero.
@@Maninawig i would like to add that ancient greek tradition of male relationships cannot be seen as related to modern fa(bb)otry, as it was either between strong, masculine men, or said men with underage femine boys, proxies for women. The implied narrative of the video is disturbing, but it can be forgiven, since author is a woman, her kin is more likely to fall victim to lies of equality.
“Tries to cuss even in kids cartoons” ok now I want to see a cartoon where wolverine notices the universe itself is trying to censor him and he spends the entire episode just trying to get around it in whatever way possible, but no matter what he tries something always stops the swear from appearing on screen or whatever. Just spends the first five minutes confused and then the rest angry
"frick!" "Why are you saying that instead of the actual word?" "I can't say that, it's a kid's show!" "You have been saying that for the last 5 minutes" "Well, that wasn't on screen"
@@Child_of_the_Void (Something startles him) Holy sh- (A loud as hell train appears out of nowhere and goes away again) ... Wait a god (random car honk) minute
So kinda like Oxhorn's "Inventing Swearwords" videos from way back when WoW first started censoring stuff? AT least, that's where my mind immediately went ^^°
@@bluelandyaandgreenlandya1788 That's because when it comes to writing, the person delivering a message changes it just as much as the actual text of the message. It's even part of the build-up to the "World of cardboard" Red mentions, that all Clarke's friends are Grade A determinators, always willing and able to give their all ,while he can't most of the time. When it comes to Spider-man, his mantra means to always wield his power for altruistic reasons, since he can do a lot more then most people. It's also pertinent to Peter, since he's NOT unvawering in his ethics & optimism. He, unlike Clark, needs a mantra about being a force for good, since he's designed to be neither Morally infallible, nor ironclad in his convictions. TL;DR "With great power comes great responsibility" means different thing when you can either punch Darkseid across the globe, or die protecting the city from Thanos.
@@bluelandyaandgreenlandya1788 Like most early superhero comics, they're both made by Jewish writers and both have very heavy Jewish-coding. Judaism places a heavy emphasis on community and a moral responsibility to do good regardless of how you feel about it, while also emphasizing that it's a bad thing when you use power to achieve good things via bad methods. (There's several prayers and such during Passover dedicated to just saying, "Wow, those plagues were a bit much, G-d didn't really need to go that far." And most golem stories usually have the golem going berserk not against Jews but against non-Jewish aggressors, and the golem gets shut down because reckless retaliation is a bad thing.) So even though it's true that the core sentiment of "With great power comes great responsibility," exists with both characters, it's more accurate to say that both characters are just deviating explorations of the morals of their Jewish roots and that "With great power comes great responsibility" is just an accurate summation of one of Judaism's core ethical paradigms.
@@normal6483 this is fascinating! I am wondering though how has American ideals effect these Jewish values. If you look at the US military there's an ideal "learn from every one". The US has basically been at war for as long as it has been around. From the native Americans the US learned the value of far ranging skirmishers and jaw dropping nerve. From the British the value of using warships, infantry and spies in tandem. WW2 germans taught them the value of combined air and land warfare. Japanese the value of streamlined aggressive assaults. Vietcong taught the value of ambush and partisan movements. Which begs the question, what is an authentic American hero when it's ideal in warfare is to be as pragmatic as possible?
Ironically Spiderman also has to constantly hold back, and even roll with punches so he doesn't break people's fist when they hit him. He's WAY stronger than he lets on
Trope Idea: Disabilities. Almost everytime a character with a disability comes on a show, they have to have some sort of power or ability to make up for it. Autistic? Congratulations, you're a genious now! Blind? Well now some sort of awesome ability, like ultrasonic sensing! Wheelchair bound? You'll either be a villian with a cat, get your ability to walk later, or are faking it! Very rarely disabilities are just disabilities in shows, they usually have some sort of gimmick or reason for the plot. I love this series and think this one might be a good idea to talk about.
Fish buddy interesting point. i think the reason disabilities are turned into superpowers is for a very similar reason that racial minorities are so often requested to have no stereotypical qualities in stories: we already know that they can be bad in reality, so we just wanna see them in a positive light however we can. i mean imagine a story where the person in a wheelchair is constantly said to be useless. that'd be insulting and annoying! so giving them a superpower is a way to overcorrect that. the unexciting middleground would be to have a person in a wheelchair and never really do anything with that fact, which could be seen as uninteresting...and probably also branded as pandering 🙄🤦♀️
I think Spy Kids 3 touched on this a bit. Juni's grandpa Valentin is disabled, and gets a powerup that gives him legs in the game. It's been a while since I watched it though, so I don't exactly remember the message, but I recall that Valentin wanted to stay in the game, since he could walk, run, and was nearly indestructible, but Juni told him he didn't care about that and would think he was cool anyway, disabled or not. So then Valentin agreed to return to reality with Juni.
@@areadenial2343 Holy cow, that reminds me of the main character's younger brother Doned in Final Fantasy Tactics Advance. Not only was Doned wheelchair-bound, but also had other health issues and was constantly in the hospital. Hence when the MC and his hometown are whisked away to Ivalice in its golden age, Doned has a reason to stay in the fantasy world: he is no longer disabled and sickly. Really, as much as people slam FFTA for the drastic change in tone compared to the original FF Tactics, the game still has powerful themes under the surface. Wish I could say the same of FFTA2, which is basically just a magical summer vacation. That said, Ivalice in all its eras and games is still my favorite Final Fantasy setting for a reason. I believe Clemps' video defending FFTA is a worthwhile watch if one has the time to invest.
Well if your watching a Super powered show then that would make sense. If they didn't have powers then they would be irrelevant to the plot and pushed aside for more useful characters.
Barbara Gordon sort of bucks this trend when she became oracle, like she never had powers but she found a way to work around her disability to be a hero
"Characters are individuals, and, just like real life, a single label can't encapsulate the totality of their existence." Perhaps one of the biggest life lessons I really wish more people would learn.
Personally I think Jason Todd is the prime example of the antihero. Questionable methods, morally grey, self-destructive, mentally and emotionally damaged, and does the wrong things for the right reasons. But to his core, he still tries to be a hero and be a good person. He does kill, but only those who deserve to die. He's the cautionary tale of when being a hero and having heroic ideals fail or go wrong.
But then you get into the aspects of Jason's character than potentially muddle the waters a little bit, namely that despite his insistence that Joker is a monster the world would be better off without even he still didn't kill him. Not because he thought it'd be wrong to do so but because he wanted Batman to do it. Instead of doing what he claimed absolutely had to be done and letting the aftermath prove his point for Jason instead demanded that Batman change and do the one thing he's sworn to never do, most likely either because Jason wants Batman to finally avenge him or because he wants Batman to sink down to his level and be unable to judge him. Whether he can be considered an antihero in all this is then an interesting thing to debate.
@@aros0018 the point of that whole setup with Joker was to test whether he meant to his dad as much as his dad did to him(and you betcha if Joker killed Bruce, Jason would've avenged him the first chance he had). After all, there was also an option for Bruce not to kill anyone and just watch his kiddo avenge himself. And the answer to the question whether he meant to his dad more than his principles was a resounding no, when Bruce chose to save the clown's life. He didn't attempt putting Bruce into similar situation ever since and still believes the clown deserves to die and will shoot if he gets the opportunity. That whole confrontation was not so much about different approaches to crime-fighting, and more just Jason working through his daddy issues.
When Jason first became the Red Hood he wasn't Batman with guns, he was a crime boss who wanted to run Gotham's entire criminal underbelly so that he could decide who got hurt and who didn't. When he first appears, he declares himself in charge of all of Gotham's major drug cartels, takes a hefty cut of their profits and forbids them from selling to kids. He wholeheartedly believed crime couldn't be eradicated so he wanted to control it. Interestingly, Marvel's Kingpin has claimed to have similar motives several times
ALL 4 comments here just confirm his anti-hero status lmao!!!!!!!!! Yes, Jason could have killed the Joker himself, but we know he cant because writers will always keep most iconic villain alive. But whole thing about Jason wanting Batman to kill the Joker was set up in Red Hood Lost Days comic and perfectly done both in the comic and the animated movie in 2 diffrent ways. In comic, all Jason wanted was Bruce to kill the Joker, not Batman because we know Bruce thinks he is the mask while batman is his main personality, so Jason wanted for his only father figure to show that his time as robin and ward of Bruce Wayne wasnt for nothing, that his father would choose his son over his moral code (out all of the robins, Jason was his only true son, even though damian is his blood, he didnt even come close to a son as jason did). But what happened... Batman out of panic, forgets all other possible ways to win in this situation, throws the batarang into his "son" neck, directly in the spot which would kill Jason and saving his murder once again over the person he fucking has dignity to call a son. Which shows that in the past Batman only kills when he sees no other option, thats why he killed Darksied, but here... shows how weak whole "no kill" rule is, by nearly kiling his son. Thats why in Comic Jason POV is more right, but of course writers fucked him over comming years so he ended up as a villain, and not as a true victim. But in the animated movie, its all grey area. You could easily side with Jason again, but here we get one of best written Batman (even though his Bruce "mask" is again same as in comic). Here Batman is more right and justiceable, because he doesnt throw a battarng or shoots the joker, but simply turns around and lets Jason let his guard down (which is so very manipulating as fuck, turning his back to his son who just wanted his father to avange him, which batman didnt acknowledge) and make Jason shoot at him and bataman throwing battarng into the barrel of the gun. No matter how Jason was written since then, this scene still stands as perfect represitation of having An hero, a Villain and an Anti-hero all in one room, in which everyone can draw their conclusion and choose a side (obviously, im on Jason side because in this video it was said evil cant be erased, but it can be minimised, and Jason knew that so he decided to control it, which Batman failed since the begining and who cant relate and sympitise a kid who ever wanted was his parents love and affection, who got screw by the Robin mantle and his anger issues which kept him alive on the streets until batman found him for him being voted to be killed by fans just because writer wrote him like that because the writer didnt like idea of child side kick so he decide to kill him off)
I like the part about how antiheroes are "allowed" to be in marginalized groups. It resonates with me now more than it would have when I was a kid; I didn't realize how many little ways I didn't fall into that archetype or why it mattered whether or not you got heroes who you could relate to. I also liked the graphs, because I am a huge geek.
He started off as a bad guy, but later on became a good guy, especially after hanging out with cable, Wolverine, domino, and the x-force, and they molded him into a real hero
The Netflix portrayal of The Punisher is a case in point for this. In both Daredevil Season 2 and his own show, he performs wanton acts of violence against people who have done bad things. But DDS2 portrays Frank as much more villainous than his own show does. Mainly, I believe, because in his own show, he's taking down people who are explicitly shown doing extremely nasty things, frequently to Frank himself. As such, the narrative presents his actions as far more justified. In Daredevil, his victims' crimes are rarely even mentioned to the audience - he just asks Matt to take it on faith (sorry) that everyone he killed was deserving of that fate. Daredevil (and by extension, the narrative) disagrees with Frank here. Later in the season, when he starts going after someone who has personally wronged him, his heroism-meter gets a bump.
@@ashadeofblue6815 Pay attention to my wording, of course everyone would be a villain if they directed their power towards innocent people, but I´m not talking about that, I´m talking about what they do, their ACTIONS. Spiderman just beats up people (pretty shitty villain if you can even call him that). An anti-hero however may also murder, extort, threat, plant bombs, etc. (Example: Butcher in The Boys) However, this characteristically villanous actions are forgiven, or at least tolerated, by the audience due to them being directed at (or being means to harm) even more villainous characters PS: You may notice I have edited the comment it was just to change "his" for "their"
Red: _Puts together a well-edited and visualized video to talk about an interesting topic in such a way that would impress any college professor._ Also Red: "So yeah."
“People who think Batman’s job would be a lot easier if he just used guns and that it doesn’t make sense that Superman doesn’t use his godlike power to just murder all his enemies. I find these people irritating....” THANK YOU!! I agree completely
Let me guess you think it’s annoying when people blame Batman for the actions of the joker . . . Even though everyone and their mother should’ve thrown that clown in a trash compactor after escape/mass murder number 2
@@hardcaselj111 Even if they did, in comics, baddies, and anyone in general come to think of it, don't tend to stay dead. It's only Uncle Ben and Batman's parents that stay dead.
That's more Hello Future Me. He got challenged to talk about redemption arcs, without talking about Zuko and went "How dare you I'm going to use him as the main example. Who do you think I am!"
Sam & Dean Winchester from CW’s Supernatural would probably count as anti-heroes (especially Dean) due to the fact that in addition to saving people, they also have questionable morals & ethics: (committing credit card fraud, impersonating authority figures, entering sealed crime scenes, committing theft, etc.)
@@joaofarias9986 I disagree. The vast majority of their actions, including the reason they even took up hunting to begin with, are all selfishly motivated, even getting to the point where they bring on the apocalypse for the 100billionth time because they refuse to sacrifice the other or let them die.
I actually think that the real difference between heroes and antiheroes is that heroes work to overcome their flaws while antiheroes refuse to do so, some even seeing them as virtues.
What about people who have a hard time dealing with EVERYTHING in life, like unwanted News, dangerous progress and wanted to forget that people with deviant sexual behavior exist, and... OH God, I'm Lovecraft only not racist and latin.
Is it just me or are those "3 anime dudes" specifically Vegeta, Zuko and Sasuke? XD EDIT: Before you “Well Actually” me on wether this character is an anti-hero or that character isn’t from an anime, please actually read my original comment. All I asked was if the little figures Red drew resembled those characters.
@@saqibahmed7740 is he really a villain if his country can progress the world and the rest of the world won't accept it. From propaganda pushed on him since birth he didn't know what his country was doing was oppression
saqib ahmed Even in season one, at his most villainous, he had enough heroic traits to be considered an anti villain, which is part of what made his slow turn to hero more natural.
The way I take it is this: Don't write a hero or a villain. Write a person, and let their actions speak their role. As with the Anakin Skywalker example, if a person is written well enough they can be the Hero, Villain, and Antihero all in the same lifetime without really changing anything but the situation they are in. The best characters stay true to their characterization.
What I was supposed to take from this: the anti hero archetype is made up and doesn’t matter What I actually got from this: red, the UA-camr who gives off the most English/creative major vibes, is actually a math major
I was thinking the same thing. Also, in which quarter would this put John Wick into? (He's definitely inspired by Doomguy and you can't change my mind)
The way I always saw it was: Heroes do the right thing for the right reason. Antiheroes do the right thing for the wrong reason. Antivillains do the wrong thing for the right reason. Villains do the wrong thing for the wrong reason. I understand this may be oversimplified though.
yeah but like, right and wrong are subjective maaann, no really though the way plot represents someones actions is usually more important than the actions themselves, that sort what she was getting at with the character of Anakin, someone who has seen to be a hero, a villain, an antihero and everything in-between depending on what piece of media you consume with him in it.
I have an Troup Talk idea. Hairstyle Shortcuts. Using hairstyles as a shortcut for how a character "should be". Sausage curls on a damsel in distress, bun for a smart librarian, etc.
That would be really cool! Other design shortcuts could also be fun like red and black being evil colors or what you dress your character in defining what they are.
My husband just inflicted me with this pun, and so I must now share my pain... "Whatever happened to the Uncle-Heroes?" I'll see myself out, and drag the other half with me.
The reason Spider-man isn't an antihero is because despite being thrown into dark places of his life he always pulls himself out with determination and a will to fight on stronger than ever before. "Anyone can win a fight when the odds are easy! It's when the going gets tough. When there seems to be no chance, that's when it counts!" - Amazing Spider-Man #33
That's probably why, in my darkest most depressed years, Spiderman was my favorite superhero. I wonder how many people with long term depression in their life also like spiderman?? is there a venn diagram for this somewhere that's actually accurate??? SOMEONE GET ME A GOVERNMENT GRANT! I HAVE A MENTAL HEALTH THEORY TO TEST!!
One story that I think shines an interesting light on this is "Kraven's Last Hunt", where Kraven "kills" Spider-Man and buries him alive, before briefly becoming a "better" version of him. It's interesting, because it's quite clear that Kraven has utterly misunderstood what Spider-Man is about--he thinks it's about being more ruthless and better at killing, but that's something Peter has no interest in exceeding Kraven at. Kraven wins by his own standards, but never realises those standards are only important to him.
@@OriginalCreatorSama Well I like him and I fit both criteria lol. But also I've loved him since a kid back when I didn't have depression yet (only C-PTSD) so a big portion of that might just be that I was always "a Spidey person". I think what is appealing to me about Spidey the most is that he doesn't really "assume moral superiority", he feels like the dude who thinks and asks what is the right thing, and ponders about that. Like you get the feel that if you'd meet him, he'd ask you what's wrong and actually listen and consider if he can't help. His heroism doesn't stem from being the right person knowing what needs to be done, but from being kind and considerate, he's not a "greater good" type character IMO. It's also why I think most edgier versions of Spidey usually failed. I'd say you can see this best in the way Spidey treats his villains. Not only is he interested and feels sorry for them, he usually doesn't consider them straight up evil - he recognises they need to be stopped and he stops them, but that's kind of where it ends. Many heroes don't kill their villains, but Spidey feels for them. He's an empathetic person.
I love this on so many levels. It is so well written, though I remember Stan Lee talking about the subject and shedding light on The Punisher and his roll as an anti-hero. At the time, only villains killed and heros locked up their opponents. That is, until The Punisher was first printed. Marvel faced a lawsuit from concerned parents hoping to ban the story and possibly close Marvel. In reply Marvel simply said "Punisher isn't a hero." And coined the term anti-hero. Their definition was "a hero is a person who always does good and never kills, while an anti-hero is a hero that kills" Hence why Deadpool is another anti-hero most of the time, as he's basically an immortal Spiderman who kills.
@@slkjvlkfsvnlsdfhgdght5447 until the Punisher was taken to court as it was Marvel's first "hero to kill someone", the term did not relate to comics. Stan Lee used the term in order to get out of a legal battle. It is the same reason Marvel did not get sued again recently when Ryan Reynolds first put on the red suit.
@@Maninawig maybe he is the first "anti hero" in comics (though I doubt it considering the medium started in the 30s and the punisher only came into ebing in the 90s), but that still doesn't mean that stan lee coined this term
I LOVE the usage of the image of Batman and Raven because of its involvement in the tumblr post that basically goes: "can you see this Batman consoling a child? If yes then he's in-character; if not, he's a shitty Punisher knock-off."
I would, but normally only if the person made the description before 2015. Back then, there was consistency, worldbuilding, good character writing. Then, everything changed when the Mickey Mouse Corporation attacked...
@@matthewmuir8884 Yes, the series that said Jango Fett, and by extent Boba Fett, were not real Mandalorians in The Clone Wars while the Legends canon said they were only got inconsistent when Disney bought it. You don't have to like modern Star's Wars, but don't lie to yourself.
@@DankeDummkopf First, I never actually read the EU material. Second, I had heard about the change to Jango Fett in The Clone Wars and I disliked it. I much prefer the original 2D Clone Wars show that had far better continuity and a far better General Grievous.
@@DankeDummkopf in a sense jango wasn't originally a mandalorian, it wasn't until he was adopted by a mandalorian soldier and trained as a mandalorian that he became a mandalorian. This is because, and if im not mistakened if this is in legends, the term mandalorian grew more than just being a species, it became an idea, culture etc etc, so even if you werent born as an actual true mandalorian, who were a species of tall alien creatures if im not mistakened, it is possible to become a mandalorian or be raised or trained as one.
So if I'm (mostly) polite, encourage self-love and acceptance, educator about mental health issues, and oddly content bisexual, does that make me an anti-anti-hero? Or possibly your long lost twin sister.
Well any character can became a Mary sue and any Mary sue can became a proper character, all depends from the writer and the ability that holds and comic books have too way many different writers, that's why comic book characters have plenty of good stories as well that plenty that are just power fantasies
If it’s about the baby pigeons: they don’t leave the nest until maturity. If it’s about the outcome of the conversation with the stranger: they sort of just smile and nod politely while they edge away and look for an excuse to leave the conversation
@@vulkanofnocturne Red doesn't have a problem with white dudes either, she's just saying they're way too prevalent in fiction. Also, why'd you add Blade? Why would you have a problem with him?
I find that statement bothersome. You honestly can't objectively criticize that most protagonist with a niche label are part of a single group, when that group was mainstream for 80 years while the other groups just became more mainstream friendly in the last 15, 20+ for the less niche groups like Asians. The antihero label was even considered a bad label to have for your hero till the 90's, so of course people wouldn't give their protagonist from niche groups a negative label unless it was for plot reasons. I honestly wish red would take more recent examples when she tries to make a point. It's obvious why there's so many white protagonist if you make a list that dates back to before the 80's.
You know, comic book antiheroes' mentality of "Why fight them over and over again when you can just kill them once?" doesn't make sense in a medium where death only lasts a few issues.
“Don’t you realise, death is no object to most of the enemies we deal with? Quite frankly, as an alternative to some of the super-punishments we’ve had to devise over the years, execution’s a walk in the park. These ‘no-nonsense’ solutions of yours just don’t hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel.” - Superman, _JLA Classified_ #3
While this is a valid argument, there’s still the fact that not every villain gets to come back (when they do it’s usually magic or reboot interference), so maybe they’re looking to get lucky?
Theres also the fact that if you set out to kill all bad guys, then the bad guys will fight to the last man, since they'll die anyway. While someone with the powers of superman wouldn't care, batman most definitely should. Since prolonging a fight means that the odds of someone getting in that one lucky shot increases dramatically.
If only the justice department put more funding into the prison system, this debate wouldn't exist. Seriously, the Joker breaks out of jail as easily as a grumpy teen breaks out of his parents'house, and he doesn't even have superpowers!
Well, everything means something, but where most critics tend to have an issue is in accepting that things don't necessarily have a DEEPER meaning. The tools a character uses to do something, or the manner in which they do so, isn't always meant to reveal a greater truth...either about the character itself or the author/director/actor's view on any particular issue. Sometimes it's just a tool for moving the story along. It's time to leave Freud in the past.
Well, you could always form your own opinions. Typically, people with obvious political leanings but little actual awareness of what they're suggesting arent very good teachers.
See, the problem here is that language isn't like architecture, we don't plan ahead and build language, instead we generate meanings from use. For words: shared-use = real-meaning. For example, the word/expression 'Meh' didn't exist before the year 2000, but by 2010 most people used 'meh' and so that shared collaboration built a shared meaning. Now 'meh' means something because we used it to express one emotion often enough, so that it came to be the word we use to represent that concept, we built up that meaning. The catch is, a word needs very specific in how we use it or its metaphorical 'foundation' is unstable. The word anti-hero is not specific, and that's the problem. It means ThingS plural instead of meaning A Thing. Since the purpose of words is to communicate, having them only used for one specific thing makes them more useful and 'wordy' so to speak, since then they really represent 'something' not just 'things' nebulously. So yes, words do mean things, but not all words are equal. Words not capable of meaning A Thing, barely mean anything. Make more sense?
"Anakin's core traits never change. Only the context he finds himself in." And that describes Eren Yeager to a T as well. The reason why he's so scary is that he went through the same transformation from hero to villain without actually changing at all.
Eren was never a hero. He was always bloodthirsty and driven by revenge and ego, it's just that the framing of the story masked most of that by having his goals align with saving humanity from an existential threat.
Your description of superman is one of the best descriptions I've ever heard of him. Too many people these days treat him as a sad sack or pit him against some super strong villain in an ultra powered boxing match and don't explore the nuance. Thanks!
"i'm not your hero. kid, I just ain't about to watch a kid die." "not if there's something i can do about it...." Now run along home kid, I'm sure your parents are looking for you. " looks at his tracking device* "and I still have work to do." runs off to pursue the enemy he let escape.*
@@gamithemighty5932 Jack Morrison is 100% a hero. He consciously decided to save the kids' life in his cinematic even if he says that the mission is all that matters. He is the definition of a vigilante.
a anti hero is a guy who do good things for selfish reasons, (like deadpool, most of the time when he is helping the heroes or killing a villain its because he is getting paid for that) Or they are good people who dont have a problem in killing or torturing their enemies (like the wolverine, a guy who have good heart and saves people because he know thats the right thing to do, but still dont have a problem in behead his enemies)
AH THE JERK SUE, THANK YOU SO MUCH for giving a name to this trope. I have been writing and gaming for a long time and see a LOT of people write these types of characters and it's really frustrating because they're NOT fun to play with.
Yes, I mean, I can see how some may come into existence as power fantasies, but there's WAY too many out there and they also really don't belong in anything that's collaborative. Jerks, sure, but not practically immortal all powerful villains by another name that one's not supposed to beat.
Midoriya breaks a few fingers. Taylor Hebert destroys her entire social support system (on top of throwing herself into battles against vastly superior foes repeatedly, but the injuries she sustains from that aren't remotely intentional). And that's not getting into the finale, but that'd be a ginormous spoiler, so...
@@JackClockerinos He could still move around and fight a bit for the rest of the arc. His whole body was banged up, but only part of it was actually broken. And if we're seriously comparing who broke themselves the worst, I'd recommend looking up spoilers for the last arc of Worm, because I'm not spoiling them here.
I raise you Emiya Shirou. While his adoptive father approached it from an more anti-heroic cynical methods to achieve idealistic goals, shirou emiya has an unhealthy heroism that almost gets him killed more times than I can count. Tohsaka even calls him out on it in Unlimited Blade Works and his complete lack of understanding of how broken he is is terrifying.
@@brinkofpureawesomenessjohn2064 the left one looks like Vegeta the middle one i would hazard a guess as Zuko maybe, really shoulda been more anime i mean all yu yu hakusho main characters fit the bill in variyng degrees
@@cactuscrisis4521 I dunno, Yusuke and Kuwabara are more just grumpy heroes; Kurama is arguably the most heroic being calm, polite, and rarely if ever harming anyone who isn't explicitly a villain; Hiei is about the only one who fits but after his initial introduction he slides into grumpy hero pretty smoothly, albeit one a bit more bloodthirsty than Yusuke or Kuwabara.
@@kylenguyen7371 Author Insert is a trope, but it does cross over with Jerk Sue characters, especially when the author wants their character to be both edgy and "right".
To be fair in the context of being social ideal for heroes and social non ideals for villans everyone is a mouthpiece for the author just some more subtle then others
I’m trying to fight against this SO HARD (because the hardest things I’m trying to evade with the story I’m telling are: protagonist-centered morality, jerk sues, and Might Makes Right)!!! I want the story to be about how violence can be necessary evil to ensure the protection of the innocent, Might for Right (the idea that those with strength and power should use it for the greater good and doing otherwise is wrong), and that no cause is more noble than to fight for someone else’s happy ending; bad guys dead, zero innocent casualties, good guys win, happily ever after, the end.
@@ThatRandomEncounterGuy Look up Demolition man. There is a scene where the main character blows up a mall in order to save a girl. When the press starts questioning his methods, the little girl in his arms says "Fuck you, lady!"
Law and chaos end up more nuanced than that. Which is the problem with committing to one of them. You end being locked into things you don't agree with
@@derekskelton4187 And then there's Neutral, which ranges the gambit from Nocturne's answer of "let's just go back to before all this Conception shit went down" to Strange Journey's "Why can't I just destroy the Schwartzwelt?
You went WAY DEEPER into this than I ever have. I've always defined an anti-hero as: Someone who breaks laws in order to stop other people from breaking more/worse laws. My typical example is Deadpool murdering a murderer so they don't murder more people. By committing 1 murder, he stops that person from committing multiple more in their lifetime.
Well,sure as hell my character is a divine killing machine named Mr.Edgelord and i'm pretty sure his kill count is huge,but let's count all innocent lifes saved.
Superman and Spider-Man are vigilantes. That's breaking the law. There's also the massive number of laws heroes break just by flying. The many times powers have been legislated as counting as weapons, every hero who steps near a school is breaking a law.
She's not wrong. Words are just vague sounds strung together in specific ways that we've assigned an arbitrary value which we all agree on. (Except for people that disagree and use different vague, arbitrary sounds to mean the same thing.)
I've dipped my toe into linguistics a bit, and it's amazing how many words out there we think we have definition for, but then we start trying to define it and it turns into something like this, where the words we use to define it are really vague or rely on culture etc.
Language is just the specific order of noises we've all agreed means things. Asking for a person's name is just asking what noises to make to get their attention.
I think I’ve come up with an antihero definition : A character who reflects who people are, and what they wish they could do without boundaries. A hero reflects what people want to be. A villain reflects what people are scared to be. An antihero is just... people.
An Antihero might represent how people expect the world would see them if they were true to their ideals all the time and without reservation. I know that if I called out people on their foolish/stupid/selfish actions all the time, I'd be hated. But I also recognize that I desire to have the courage to do that.
To quote the daredevil show, "Sometimes it's easy to tell what something is, black and white, no in-between. Sometimes the grey area is larger then anything else, all of it blurred. And sometimes it's like p😉rn, you just know it when you see it"
Nah, the amount of people I’ve seen call Batman or Eren Jeager anti heroes is way too much. Grumpy heroes and sympathetic mass murderers are not anti heroes
I am unsure what's nicer: to see Anakin and _The Clone Wars_ cartoon be used as positive examples of something despite not caring for _Star Wars_ ultimately or to see those stupid 90s Antiheroes called out as the Jerk Sues they are/were. Also I agree that The Punisher is basically a Villain Protagonist or at best an Antivillain who is slightly sympathetic and just tends to kill extremely horrible people. He's basically a "Serial Killer Killer", only the serial killers are mundane criminal organizations/families in his case.
@@Yora21 Perhaps, though I think the "XTREME!" phase of the 1990s largely infected only (American) fiction mostly aimed towards tweens and teens. It also depends on how you define "rather weird" when it comes to fiction in general given that is xtremely er...extremely subjective after all. That said, now I can't help but try to picture an XTREME version of _Harry Potter_ given those were mostly 1990s fiction and given J. K. Rowling keeps trying to retcon that universe in silly, detrimentally unnecessary ways. ...This version of Harry has a katana for some reason, a skateboard that he gets to ride all over Hogwarts despite it being against the rules, and *way* too many belts and pouches.
It doesn’t hurt that we have Dexter to serve as a compare-contrast - since he does all those things that the Punisher does, but we see a heroic moral backbone and process to him.
Like most comic book superheroes, it depends on the specific issue, run, or writer. In some, the Punisher's motives are more heroic, like being motivated by a desire to deliver justice in a corrupt system or by a desire to protect others. In other issues, he's motivated by more villainous stuff, like revenge or a raging murder-boner. His violence being solely directed at criminals guilty of particularly heinous crimes vindicates it a bit, too. Most people don't consider a character that's a war hero to be a villain just because he happened to kill a lot of people in a war, especially if the other side of the war is portrayed as evil. Waging a "war" against organized crime could be viewed similarly. The Punisher's still a big dumb edgelord, though.
I think the reason Spidey stays in the hero category is because of his status as an everyman character. despite his power Peter Parker is just so damn relatable.
I think the label anti hero is the writers way to say “don’t act like this at home kids” so they don’t get in trouble with parents. That’s basically it.
Darth Maul, also from the Clone Wars portrayal, somewhat fits into the same category as the Punisher. His motivation is purely revenge against both Obi-Wan for cutting his legs off on Naboo, and revenge against Palpatine for ruining Maul's life by using him as a weapon to further his master plan. In the last arc of The Clone Wars, Maul's plan was to lure Anakin Skywalker to him on Mandalore, kill him, and deprive Palpatine of his new apprentice, Darth Vader. Even though Maul's actions are very unheroic, and his goals are very unheroic, if he had succeeded, he might have prevented the fall of the Republic and the rise of the Empire, maybe even stopping or at least delaying Order 66 and the fall of the Jedi. Later even in Star Wars: Rebels, Maul helps the main heroes several times because he opposes the Empire just as much as they do, and it's really only Maul's passion for the dark side of the force that prevents him from aligning with the good guys. You gotta love Dave Filoni's team for taking all the prequel characters and fleshing out their characters so much while keeping it believable that they are still the same as their movie counterparts.
I wouldn't really place Punisher and Light Yagami in the same category. One knows they're a bad person and aims to spend the rest of their life killing worse people. The other one is a maniac with a god complex who actually has an end goal of ruling the world. I guess Frank is easier to root for because his slippery slope mostly ends at horrible people in his immediate vicinity and nowhere else--there's no real end goal of exterminating every criminal on Earth, either. Light kills and screws over anyone who opposes him, and even those that help him, to protect his identity and further his pipe dream of becoming a god--killing criminals was just an excuse to tell himself he's a hero.
Except they do. They are the exact same character, just at different points of the same character arc. Light Yagami doesn't start at "me is god" (in fact he first finds being compared to an angel to be funny). He just thinks the world is shitty because shitty people aren't dealt with as they should. 100% Punisher. And that he knows how it should be done and everyone disagreeing is wrong. Punisher again. Then he gets the mean to act upon those ideals and start killing criminals by the thousands. Murdering people or using drugs? It's the same. If you do crime you're evil. Unless your target is evil, then it's okay. Anyway limits don't apply to him, because he's always right. Just like Frank. And of course when people try to oppose him he starts killing them, because they're wrong and he's right, if he's stopped he won't be able to do what should be done, and he shouldn't have any limits because he's right. Then he recruits people and uses the followers he has gathered to gain personal power and make himself a defacto dictator, because he's the only one right so of course he's the only one that can decide what's good for everyone. By then of course he'll think himself a god. After all he is always right and everyone has to follow him. A last step Frank won't reach. Because he is a massive Gary Stu, and the plot will bend in any possible way to make sure he IS always right and none of his actions ever go wrong or out of hand. People with different opinions ? They're wrong. Or evil. Or they'll have a change of heart. Or will conveniently stop from doing anything too drastic to stop him before we have to see what an unfettered, self-righteous, armed man is bound to do in that situation. What if he makes errors and punishes an innocent ? Nope. He's always right. Because instinct or something. Won't his ultra violent vigilantism in populated locations result in collaterals ? Nah, only evil people have collateral victims. Frank can discharge a shootgun in a crowded hospital multiple times and he won't hurt anyone because sniper I guess (like, seriously?). Won't that mindset push him to oppose any system he founds too laxist, while recruiting other violent people to fuel his crusade? None of that. All other options short of murdering people who do crime will always be shown to be corrupt ways for evil ones to escape true justice. And any "pro Punisher" will exist only to make Frank look cooler, in order to give the writers their plausible deniability when IRL cops start gluing Frank's logo on their cars. The Punisher is easier to root for because he has the writers on his side. While Yagami, even with his magic notebook and absurdly precise deductions, is a more realistic portrayal; with writers who are a lot more honest.
@BenLafarge dawg Light saw the slippery slope and ran at it with a sled. He proclaimed he would be god of his new world before the end of the first episode. Punisher is only in the same category when poorly written. When properly written he has the same motivation as other heroes. To protect innocent people and prevent others from having tonendure the kind of tragedy he did. He just disagrees with heroes over how best to protect people. And when serial mass murderers keep escaping to kill even more people he's not entirely wrong. He doesn't kill people just for getting in his way, he actively avoids killing people that he doesn't know to be guilty.
@@General_Weebus People also forget, the punisher is a character made during a time with high, and rising, crime rates. He is an antihero because the time he was made saw that as being an antihero. It is only later with our cultures far more liberal view that people like Red would categorize him closer to being a villain. Given what she had said during this video and the amount of talk about the punisher it would have been nice if she was explicit in stating the reason why the punisher is seen as an antihero.
@josephbolton5893 Punisher's very first appearance was as an antagonist in a Spider-man story but he was tricked by one of the actual villains and all of the bad press Spidey gets from the Bugle. He tells Spidey he doesn't enjoy it but he has to do it to protect people. The real problem is he's a comic book character so his morality fluctuates wildly from writer to writer and Red only acknowledged the most uncharitable versions of his character. It'd be like talking about Harley Quinn and ardently ignoring that for more than half her existence she's been a villain.
“Greeks didn’t rely on morals, just strength”
No wonder they like zeus
By today's standards, Zeus is a seriously entitled deadbeat dad. He's a bad guy from a TV drama. And not one of the regular ones either. He's in it for like one episode to maybe give another character some tragic backstory then he's never mentioned again.
Couldn't go five minutes without turning into a bull and banging mortals.
Media Baron Even in Greek times Zeus was seen as bad, but if you said it out loud you’d be struck by lightning and instantly killed
Sinead Thomas ah, like a Whiny baby with the strongest taser in the world
The might makes right mentality explains a lot about why imperial Europeans and British isles folk included Greek humanities in their vaunted classical education. 😒
"Antiheroes are way cooler than normal heroes because they posses a special power the marketers desperately seek, edgyness!"
- Terrible Writing Advice
i hadnt even got to the end n i could already hear it in his voice like bruh
Crossover when
@@Mechanomanic Crossover when indeed! JP and Red need to get in on this! :o
You have like 666 likes, so I can only ❤️ in the comments
But where can we fit in the LOVE TRIANGLE?
Red having a math degree and not an English or creative writing one is the plot twist of the century
Everyone has a hobby
@@floydharper1216 oh of course, I just thought it was ironic, as you’d expect someone with as much literary knowledge as Red to be a humanities major or something. Nothing wrong with diverging from your degree on your life path though
Plus hey, we don’t know what she does as her main non-UA-cam job, she could be an accountant for all we know 💁♀️
Lol don't get me wrong I'm not criticizing and I know what you mean, it is kinda incongruous. But yeah I sort of figure the math degree is for her career and what you see here on UA-cam is her passion project. She is extremely knowledgeable about philosophy and literature
True
I think that highlights her intelligence. She is/seems to be pretty intelligent and knowledegable, which was impressive enough, but the fact that her education is in something completely unrelated to writing means that this whole channel is based off her learning about a hobby, which is more impressive.
That "quitting an addiction is seen as heroic" got me thinking
Villain: God.. what have I been doing? I've been getting this all wrong!
Sidekick: What do you mean, boss?
Villain: This is all so destructive.. I'm hurting.... I need to stop this.
Sidekick: You're gonna stop killing innocent civilians?
Villain: What? God, no. What do you take me for? I'm quitting my smoking, it's really unhealthy for me. Killing people still boosts my mental health, ya know.
that's an amazing idea xD
Hero: I feel like I should be supportive, but on the other hand, it'd save a lot of lives in the long run if you smoked more.
I think it was Roger Eberts who pointed out that in gritty crime stories, the detective is always _trying_ to quit smoking. That's why one of my favourite small details in film history is that Michael Douglas's character in _Basic Insctint_ casually accepts Sharon Stone's cigarrette while they're in bed. Trying to quit smoking was part of his characterization as someone struggling with dark impulses and self-destructive tendencies, so when Stone's character makes him smoke again it simbolizes that the self-destruction won over
Literally Hitler.
Ok yeah I need some kind of spinoff series turned into a slice-of-life where we see the villain continue to be a horrible person but also learns to increase the pay to his employees and how to home cook a healthy meal.
"If you're writing a character, write the character. Maybe they'll be seen as an anti-hero, maybe they won't." This Trope Talk really helped. It pulled a mental weight off my shoulder.
if it pulled a mental weight then it did help in a way
Personally, if your characters leave the audience having different viewpoints on them(who's right or wrong, are they a hero or villain etc) and just generally making the audience THINK , then you've succedeed as a writer.
Of course thats going under the assumption that that's what you want for your story, there's nothing wrong with having objectively good or evil characters
Yeah after a while, you realize to just do whatever you want to do. Sure things may end up in some neat little boxes, but so long as you write the character that YOU WANT to write, that's all that really matters. If you ask me, saying you want an 'antihero' or you want a 'paragon' is meaningless since labels like those restrict creativity and don't give you the freedom to create the kinds of complexities that maybe you want.
i read this JUST as she said it XD
I can relate. I've been putting off continuing writing the adventures of an OC of mine because she's supposed to be this questionable character, but I feel like I've been making her make less sense.
"Anakin's core traits never change, only the context" wooooooow, that's so true! Why didn't I see this?
This is part of why critics say Anakin starts his first scene of Attack of the Clones as a villain, which is kind of tough given the entire story is his Grand And Tragic Fall... it's like a film called 'ball falls of table' where it starts with it on the ground. But looking at it across the whole series imparts more meaning.
Fusilier I’ve never heard of this AotC criticism
Both Anakin and Palpatine are antiheroes. Only Palpatine goes to greater lengths to bring peace and order to galaxy, so he is seen only as a villain from Jedi/rebels point of view. He starts as a senator in corrupt disfunctional republic with slaves and class systems, and he turns it into confederacy of independent systems, where law works for everybody. Empire did destroyed a planet, but we don't know the scope of conflict, so it might be perfectly justified.
Janko M. Lmao no
Palpatine is 100% a villain of unmitigated evil
@@simonegreco1958 He is villain, because "heroes" said he is. And we see everything from their point of view. All of them lie almost constantly (most of what Obi says in OT are lies). They even have discussions about lying and keeping secrets (not telling senate about Sith). They don't care about slavery (no slavery in OT), they enforce will of senate with force, but not actual law (Naboo and probably all separatist systems were left without support of republic). In OT, local systems enforce law, and empire keeps them from fighting each other. In prequels, Jedi murder whoever they want, completely unchecked. On Tatooine, people get killed, and taken, and no authority cares. In OT, law enforcement is everywhere. And they are interested in actual murderers, smugglers (Han), and terrorists (Leia), and not random members of religion (Yoda, Obi Wan), until they commit actual crime. To be fair, Darth Vader is a loose cannon, and he murders people, because he feels like it, but other things we see that empire does, might be justified. Difference between Jedi and Sith is, that Jedi demand absolute obedience, and don't know, how to solve problems, other than with lightsaber. Sith give you a choice to decide. And they are interested in solving problems. There is a rule of law and order in empire, unlike in republic. And Anakin was always keen to solve a problems (his mother, Padme's assassin), while Jedi were telling him to do nothing (especially Yoda).
“Don’t write a hero, don’t write a villain, write a person.”
Good advice
Now if only marvel will listen to you
Funnily enough thats why Garth Ennis was drawn to the Punisher in the first place. And probably wrote the greatest version of him too for that reason lol
unless you want to have fun. and I mean a lot of fun
But what is ur black ?????????????(no racial)
@@patrickmcguire7896 TTTTTTHHHHHHIIIIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
i kinda want a villain who's plans always end up backfiring making him seem more like a good guy. steal candy from a baby? candy's poisoned, baby saved. steal baby? abusive parents, baby saved. push lady off a building? the push she needed to unlock powers of flight, she's now your sidekick and the baby's adopted mother while you're the adoptive father with the adoptive parents sharing a purely platonic/aesthetic relationship
Doofenshmirtz, maybe?
There's a ProZD vine about this
@@mitkitty “you fixed my shoulder”
@@haewonchoi2752 *GOD DAMNIT-*
Yes PLEASE
Actually, antiheroes are defined by falling into the category of “pulls into mcdonalds drive through as children cheer, orders one black coffee and leaves”
i remember the coffee thing, i think a comedian said that
PrimalTheEmperor (primal9000) pretty sure it was John Mulaney
John mulaney’s dad is my hero lol
Love that! LOL! John Mulaney all the way.
That’s just chaotic evil in my opinion lol. Nice Mulaney regrants btw👌
"Achilles, with a wife he likes alright, and a boyfriend he likes even more"
Dudebros would be a lot less angry all the time if they finished their transformation into classical Greek lifestyles and just lived off the grid, supported each other's fitness regime, and fell in love with each other and wrote love poems and homoerotic plays about each other.
Ok so admittedly we'd be annoyed all over again when a big, muscled, nude army of hot gay warriors tried to take over a Walmart BUT STILL
boy friend*
Achilles has big Joseph Joestar energy
@@WrathofFenrir99 ...idk about Spartans, but Greeks weren't just gay lol. Half the time their gods are getting it on with literal animals and then giving birth to literal animals too. I'm honestly not exactly sure if their sexuality is a good standard...
@@kaiz1845 Greek sexuality could be described as 'Yes, except lesbians.'
Greeks: “Archery is the weenie baby choice for those afraid to get stabbed”
India: “Bitch I did not just here that”
Meanwhile in Mongolia...
Scowls in English and Welsh Longbowmen.
@@oxtheunlikelycontemplator2682 Who are laughing in *snipin's a good job, m8*
actually while in Iliad archery is explicitly mocked, in the final scenes of Odyssey it is portrayed as badass, which is one of many arguments in an academic debate for those two to be composed (achieve agreed upon more or less canonical form) in different period and by different authors due to discernable shift in the paradigm of a hero. Counter argument being that, suitors killed with arrows where thus disposed of in a kinda degrading way.
You mean native Americans?
If your mom or dad's sister fights crime, that's an Auntiehero.
Get out
@@anondescriptbullet (2)
You. I like you.
@@jameseddieson33 I like me, too. I'm also proud of my comment on one of the SCP videos about a living entity made of metal links, where I referred to him as a 'Chain Male'.
I'm sad to say this joke falls apart when you're from New England 🤣
Red: “There’s actually one character who perfectly illustrates how difficult it is to pin down specific qualities as heroic or unheroic...”
*sees Obi-Wan Kenobi*
Me: *Stares in Confusion*
Red: “...and that character is none other than Anakin Skywalker”
Me: I’ve been bamboozled, a surprise for sure, but a welcome one
Same here
Yeah, I thought it was going to be Satine, the woman Obi Wan was talking to, who fits... Surprisingly well as a Mandalorian Antihero?
Obi-wan is the quintessential anti-hero. He embodies a trait typically not seen as heroic, being a master troll. He has a bad attitude and doesn't uphold a moral code, the jedi code being "there is no emotion, there is peace. " and "There is no passion, there is serenity", but Obi-wan's a pretty sarcastic guy who points out the general bullshit people are trying to pull, and that's pretty edgy for a jedi. He's also a Guardian, which is the most aggressive and violent role a jedi can take. He's also very self destructive. As a mentor he told Anikan "don't try it", but when put in a similar but worse situation he himself tried it, knowing the downsides.
He tics *all* the boxes.
*Me: _visible confusion_
@@autisonm Red has the high ground.
Trope Talk: Antiheroes
Red: "This video doesn't exist."
For twenty minutes, no less. :)
billy butcher
Anyone here with an imagination has talked about something that doesn't exist at some point in thier life
What I thought I’d learn: what an antihero is.
What I actually learned: CHARTS ARE FUN DUDES!!!
Edit: this is my most liked comment, and it’s about charts. This is the power of charts my friends.
HELL YEAH!
Red's getting a lot of use out of that math degree today.
Are we saying that according to the charts...charts are fun?
I learned that there are even more dimensions to the political compass than I ever imagined.
Exactly!!
The antihero trope: confusing, sometimes dark, misunderstood, controversial.... THE *ANTI-TROPE*
If the Anti-trope gets an avatar like other tropes, I think it needs a pope hat
The anti trope equation
*wouldn’t that make it a trope?*
Antiheroes: Everyone’s first self-insert.
If that ain't the truth.
So Dante is an Anti-hero? Cool
@@carlosroo5460 In a sense yes but he got character growth eventually.
Mine wasn't. My first self-insert was still cringy as all hell, but wasn't an anti-hero.
@@Mini_Squatch i feel ya' yo. I feel ya'.
So antiheroes are the magenta of characters; not a “real” archetype with a specific niche on the spectrum, but what our brains use to fill the in between
I like this idea!
That's not what magenta is but okay.
@@blindbeholder9713 it literally is what magenta is. You can easily watch some color science videos here on YT.
@@glanni I have, and have also been taught since before this website existed. Magenta is as much a part of the spectrum as any other color. It's one of the secondary colors actually. The closest edge of the spectrum to it is tertiary color Violet, which is higher energy and lower wavelength than Magenta, and Violet is definitely on the spectrum. The easy thing to remember here is that if it isn't on the spectrum, it isn't visible to human eyes.
Genius
Laughed out loud at "A wife he likes alright and a boyfriend he likes way more".
Yep, that pretty much describes Achilles.
MAJOR kudos for highlighting Superman's "world of cardboard" speech, and why it makes him so admirable :)
Or pedantic depending on how you wanna write him. You can use one of his crowning moments to make him almost blatantly admit to a God Complex and treat this "The world is so frail I have to hold back" idea as straight up "I'm so much better than you that I have to lower myself to your level".
@@jouheikisaragi6075
I suppose you could, especially if you're FRANK MILLER.
@TheThoughtPalace Uhhh... I'm pretty sure Superman does not know how to cure all diseases. Nor how to stop war, in any way besides just delivering an ultimatum that no one is allowed to war anymore. In fact, nothing I've seen suggests he's exceptionally intelligent at all.
@TheThoughtPalace Smart would be actually demonstrating an ability to come up with creative solutions to problems and out think opponents. Superman demonstrates a consistently unexceptional ability to do this. If he was ACTUALLY smarter than any human, Batman and Luthor wouldn't be outsmarting him all the time. The fact that Zod is so often a straight-up moron in his plans further disproves the idea of kryptonian hyper-intelligence.
@TheThoughtPalace Oh no, I've never particularly liked superman. I just think it's weird that you're criticizing him for not finding a cure for cancer when it doesn't seem likely to me that he could even do that. Superman's hyper-intelligence just sounds like something some writer put in without thinking about it and then forgot about because it didn't actually make sense.
"And before you ask, no, this is not how I expected to use my math degree, but hey if it works, it works."
-Red
This video actually justified the whole idea of math majors in general
"Why do I have to learn about math? I'll never use this when I'm an adult... I'm going to be a UA-camr!"
This is why. 😂
See. I'm just sorta shocked she has a math degree. I figured she was an anthropologist
To be fair, my dad uses his math degree to figure how long a spoon need to be to not fall into a bowl when you set it down.
Well, I'm here using my, admittedly grammar school, maths to figure out ways to calculate approximate page counts of comics from the script.
"I'm rude, self-destructive, traumatized and miserable. Also bisexual."
I feel seen!
literally me, lol.
It was suppose to represent Constantine. Very good show, if you wanna watch the only season.
@@Wolfsification wasn't even a full season
My theatre teacher has a pretty interesting definition for an anti-hero: a character whose ends are noble enough for the audience to justify the means. The converse, of course, is that an antivillain is when the audience can no longer justify the means and so they cross the very fine line to villainy.
I like that definition of antihero
But an anti villain to me is a villain who does good while intending evil
Those are extremely rare though
That, that is an interesting 10:36 definition of something I don’t normally enjoy, and it makes sense, that teacher needs a massive raise for increasing the power of The Art Of Writing.
Those definitions sound bizarre?
An anti-hero is someone who does the right thing and fights for justice but has traits that doesn't look all to pleasant. Frank Castle is what comes to my mind.
An anti-villain is someone who while an enemy and a threat to the good guys they have noble qualities to them that can make them sympathetic like honor, caring about their friends and fighting for a well-meaning goal.
@@dj_koen1265that's called insanity.
@@dj_koen1265 Iron Man is an antivillain. He never does anything that isn't in direct service to himself or the people he claims (Happy, Pepper, Rhodey, Peter, and very briefly Phil). Any heroism he engages in is incidental to either protecting or avenging those people, or to absolve himself of guilt. He is willing to murder somebody he knows is innocent in order to get his revenge as well. The fact that he shot Falcon because Vision permanently disabled Warmachine is by itself all the evidence you need to prove he's not a hero.
"A wife he likes alright and a boyfriend he likes way more" this line is way too funny to me
Ironically, because Ancient Greece did not put such an emphasis on them being bi or gay, this line is one that always catches me off guard. It isn't such a minor character trait to their characters that I believe it might be how it passed under the Karen radars for all these years, while The Punisher ruffled their feathers into creating another subcategory of hero.
And a sex slave he liked even more lol
@@Maninawig i would like to add that ancient greek tradition of male relationships cannot be seen as related to modern fa(bb)otry, as it was either between strong, masculine men, or said men with underage femine boys, proxies for women.
The implied narrative of the video is disturbing, but it can be forgiven, since author is a woman, her kin is more likely to fall victim to lies of equality.
@@arseniykyrilkin33 she also studied the myths and histories behind them.
@@arseniykyrilkin33 Uhh what the fuck?
4:46 Red using her math degree to explain Anti-Heros
Red's math degree: "Well hell, it's about damn time."
I'm more surprised (and I mean no disrespect with this) that Red has a MATH degree. Totally not the field I would've pegged her for.
Wait... Was Tychus Findlay an antihero?!
@TerLoki I know what you mean, I thought she had a degree in literature or something related to art
This here is the single greatest graph chart ever constructed by man...
@@profharveyherrera Yeah, i thought the same thing. Yet i know a writer with an engineer degree :)
What I expected: Antiheroes
What I got: Social studies and math XD
Wellcome to peak nerdity.
“Tries to cuss even in kids cartoons” ok now I want to see a cartoon where wolverine notices the universe itself is trying to censor him and he spends the entire episode just trying to get around it in whatever way possible, but no matter what he tries something always stops the swear from appearing on screen or whatever. Just spends the first five minutes confused and then the rest angry
"frick!"
"Why are you saying that instead of the actual word?"
"I can't say that, it's a kid's show!"
"You have been saying that for the last 5 minutes"
"Well, that wasn't on screen"
@@Child_of_the_Void (Something startles him) Holy sh-
(A loud as hell train appears out of nowhere and goes away again)
... Wait a god (random car honk) minute
@@dr.elementalist gjch fhchjyk
Why the fruit does all this funky stuff happens to me
So kinda like Oxhorn's "Inventing Swearwords" videos from way back when WoW first started censoring stuff? AT least, that's where my mind immediately went ^^°
12:37 with Spider-Man it means “if you can do good you must do good” and with super man it means “you must be careful with your powers”
Which is kinda weird because if you just look at the motto Spiderman goes by it sounds like the same thing superman is saying
@@bluelandyaandgreenlandya1788 That's because when it comes to writing, the person delivering a message changes it just as much as the actual text of the message.
It's even part of the build-up to the "World of cardboard" Red mentions, that all Clarke's friends are Grade A determinators, always willing and able to give their all ,while he can't most of the time.
When it comes to Spider-man, his mantra means to always wield his power for altruistic reasons, since he can do a lot more then most people. It's also pertinent to Peter, since he's NOT unvawering in his ethics & optimism. He, unlike Clark, needs a mantra about being a force for good, since he's designed to be neither Morally infallible, nor ironclad in his convictions.
TL;DR "With great power comes great responsibility" means different thing when you can either punch Darkseid across the globe, or die protecting the city from Thanos.
@@bluelandyaandgreenlandya1788 Like most early superhero comics, they're both made by Jewish writers and both have very heavy Jewish-coding. Judaism places a heavy emphasis on community and a moral responsibility to do good regardless of how you feel about it, while also emphasizing that it's a bad thing when you use power to achieve good things via bad methods. (There's several prayers and such during Passover dedicated to just saying, "Wow, those plagues were a bit much, G-d didn't really need to go that far." And most golem stories usually have the golem going berserk not against Jews but against non-Jewish aggressors, and the golem gets shut down because reckless retaliation is a bad thing.) So even though it's true that the core sentiment of "With great power comes great responsibility," exists with both characters, it's more accurate to say that both characters are just deviating explorations of the morals of their Jewish roots and that "With great power comes great responsibility" is just an accurate summation of one of Judaism's core ethical paradigms.
@@normal6483 this is fascinating! I am wondering though how has American ideals effect these Jewish values. If you look at the US military there's an ideal "learn from every one".
The US has basically been at war for as long as it has been around. From the native Americans the US learned the value of far ranging skirmishers and jaw dropping nerve. From the British the value of using warships, infantry and spies in tandem. WW2 germans taught them the value of combined air and land warfare. Japanese the value of streamlined aggressive assaults. Vietcong taught the value of ambush and partisan movements. Which begs the question, what is an authentic American hero when it's ideal in warfare is to be as pragmatic as possible?
Ironically Spiderman also has to constantly hold back, and even roll with punches so he doesn't break people's fist when they hit him. He's WAY stronger than he lets on
Trope Idea: Disabilities.
Almost everytime a character with a disability comes on a show, they have to have some sort of power or ability to make up for it. Autistic? Congratulations, you're a genious now! Blind? Well now some sort of awesome ability, like ultrasonic sensing! Wheelchair bound? You'll either be a villian with a cat, get your ability to walk later, or are faking it! Very rarely disabilities are just disabilities in shows, they usually have some sort of gimmick or reason for the plot. I love this series and think this one might be a good idea to talk about.
Fish buddy
interesting point. i think the reason disabilities are turned into superpowers is for a very similar reason that racial minorities are so often requested to have no stereotypical qualities in stories: we already know that they can be bad in reality, so we just wanna see them in a positive light however we can.
i mean imagine a story where the person in a wheelchair is constantly said to be useless. that'd be insulting and annoying! so giving them a superpower is a way to overcorrect that.
the unexciting middleground would be to have a person in a wheelchair and never really do anything with that fact, which could be seen as uninteresting...and probably also branded as pandering 🙄🤦♀️
I think Spy Kids 3 touched on this a bit. Juni's grandpa Valentin is disabled, and gets a powerup that gives him legs in the game. It's been a while since I watched it though, so I don't exactly remember the message, but I recall that Valentin wanted to stay in the game, since he could walk, run, and was nearly indestructible, but Juni told him he didn't care about that and would think he was cool anyway, disabled or not. So then Valentin agreed to return to reality with Juni.
@@areadenial2343 Holy cow, that reminds me of the main character's younger brother Doned in Final Fantasy Tactics Advance. Not only was Doned wheelchair-bound, but also had other health issues and was constantly in the hospital. Hence when the MC and his hometown are whisked away to Ivalice in its golden age, Doned has a reason to stay in the fantasy world: he is no longer disabled and sickly.
Really, as much as people slam FFTA for the drastic change in tone compared to the original FF Tactics, the game still has powerful themes under the surface. Wish I could say the same of FFTA2, which is basically just a magical summer vacation. That said, Ivalice in all its eras and games is still my favorite Final Fantasy setting for a reason. I believe Clemps' video defending FFTA is a worthwhile watch if one has the time to invest.
Well if your watching a Super powered show then that would make sense. If they didn't have powers then they would be irrelevant to the plot and pushed aside for more useful characters.
Barbara Gordon sort of bucks this trend when she became oracle, like she never had powers but she found a way to work around her disability to be a hero
"Characters are individuals, and, just like real life, a single label can't encapsulate the totality of their existence."
Perhaps one of the biggest life lessons I really wish more people would learn.
Agreed
I wish that wasn't always the case. Me and my stupid Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle of a mind.
Personally I think Jason Todd is the prime example of the antihero. Questionable methods, morally grey, self-destructive, mentally and emotionally damaged, and does the wrong things for the right reasons. But to his core, he still tries to be a hero and be a good person. He does kill, but only those who deserve to die. He's the cautionary tale of when being a hero and having heroic ideals fail or go wrong.
Thats not a hero tho, the red cap or how ever hes called after coming back is
But then you get into the aspects of Jason's character than potentially muddle the waters a little bit, namely that despite his insistence that Joker is a monster the world would be better off without even he still didn't kill him. Not because he thought it'd be wrong to do so but because he wanted Batman to do it. Instead of doing what he claimed absolutely had to be done and letting the aftermath prove his point for Jason instead demanded that Batman change and do the one thing he's sworn to never do, most likely either because Jason wants Batman to finally avenge him or because he wants Batman to sink down to his level and be unable to judge him. Whether he can be considered an antihero in all this is then an interesting thing to debate.
@@aros0018 the point of that whole setup with Joker was to test whether he meant to his dad as much as his dad did to him(and you betcha if Joker killed Bruce, Jason would've avenged him the first chance he had). After all, there was also an option for Bruce not to kill anyone and just watch his kiddo avenge himself. And the answer to the question whether he meant to his dad more than his principles was a resounding no, when Bruce chose to save the clown's life. He didn't attempt putting Bruce into similar situation ever since and still believes the clown deserves to die and will shoot if he gets the opportunity. That whole confrontation was not so much about different approaches to crime-fighting, and more just Jason working through his daddy issues.
When Jason first became the Red Hood he wasn't Batman with guns, he was a crime boss who wanted to run Gotham's entire criminal underbelly so that he could decide who got hurt and who didn't. When he first appears, he declares himself in charge of all of Gotham's major drug cartels, takes a hefty cut of their profits and forbids them from selling to kids. He wholeheartedly believed crime couldn't be eradicated so he wanted to control it. Interestingly, Marvel's Kingpin has claimed to have similar motives several times
ALL 4 comments here just confirm his anti-hero status lmao!!!!!!!!! Yes, Jason could have killed the Joker himself, but we know he cant because writers will always keep most iconic villain alive. But whole thing about Jason wanting Batman to kill the Joker was set up in Red Hood Lost Days comic and perfectly done both in the comic and the animated movie in 2 diffrent ways.
In comic, all Jason wanted was Bruce to kill the Joker, not Batman because we know Bruce thinks he is the mask while batman is his main personality, so Jason wanted for his only father figure to show that his time as robin and ward of Bruce Wayne wasnt for nothing, that his father would choose his son over his moral code (out all of the robins, Jason was his only true son, even though damian is his blood, he didnt even come close to a son as jason did). But what happened... Batman out of panic, forgets all other possible ways to win in this situation, throws the batarang into his "son" neck, directly in the spot which would kill Jason and saving his murder once again over the person he fucking has dignity to call a son. Which shows that in the past Batman only kills when he sees no other option, thats why he killed Darksied, but here... shows how weak whole "no kill" rule is, by nearly kiling his son. Thats why in Comic Jason POV is more right, but of course writers fucked him over comming years so he ended up as a villain, and not as a true victim.
But in the animated movie, its all grey area. You could easily side with Jason again, but here we get one of best written Batman (even though his Bruce "mask" is again same as in comic). Here Batman is more right and justiceable, because he doesnt throw a battarng or shoots the joker, but simply turns around and lets Jason let his guard down (which is so very manipulating as fuck, turning his back to his son who just wanted his father to avange him, which batman didnt acknowledge) and make Jason shoot at him and bataman throwing battarng into the barrel of the gun.
No matter how Jason was written since then, this scene still stands as perfect represitation of having An hero, a Villain and an Anti-hero all in one room, in which everyone can draw their conclusion and choose a side (obviously, im on Jason side because in this video it was said evil cant be erased, but it can be minimised, and Jason knew that so he decided to control it, which Batman failed since the begining and who cant relate and sympitise a kid who ever wanted was his parents love and affection, who got screw by the Robin mantle and his anger issues which kept him alive on the streets until batman found him for him being voted to be killed by fans just because writer wrote him like that because the writer didnt like idea of child side kick so he decide to kill him off)
I like the “don’t write the character as an anti hero, just write the character” aspect
I like the part about how antiheroes are "allowed" to be in marginalized groups. It resonates with me now more than it would have when I was a kid; I didn't realize how many little ways I didn't fall into that archetype or why it mattered whether or not you got heroes who you could relate to.
I also liked the graphs, because I am a huge geek.
Timothy McLean same lol. Made it really easy to think about
Anakin’s friend: You must KILL me to SAVE me.
Anakin: *heavy breathing*
*visible confusion*
Red: * mentions Avatar *
HelloFutureMe: “DID SOMEBODY SAY AVATAR”
James Cameron's masterpiece.
David Wührer Not the one I was referring to, but yes that one is good too
Zu.... zuzu.... Zuko,,,
When does Red NOT mention Avatar?
Coffee Daemon Fair point, though some tropes just simply don’t fit it. Like robots or dystopias.
i think deadpool wrapped up the trope pretty well.
"I'm just a bad guy who gets paid to fuck up worse guys"
Sooooooooo edgy!
He started off as a bad guy, but later on became a good guy, especially after hanging out with cable, Wolverine, domino, and the x-force, and they molded him into a real hero
We have space to ponder if his actions line up with this. And realise that they normally do.
Like Potter Stewart said: "While I cannot define it, I know it when I see it."
Personally, I define anti-hero as:
Someone you would call a villain if their actions werent directed at other badguys.
The Punisher and The Wolverine # 1 and 2
everyone would be a villain in that case spiderman instead of catching villains is beating up random citizens. Edit:grammar
The Netflix portrayal of The Punisher is a case in point for this.
In both Daredevil Season 2 and his own show, he performs wanton acts of violence against people who have done bad things.
But DDS2 portrays Frank as much more villainous than his own show does. Mainly, I believe, because in his own show, he's taking down people who are explicitly shown doing extremely nasty things, frequently to Frank himself. As such, the narrative presents his actions as far more justified.
In Daredevil, his victims' crimes are rarely even mentioned to the audience - he just asks Matt to take it on faith (sorry) that everyone he killed was deserving of that fate. Daredevil (and by extension, the narrative) disagrees with Frank here.
Later in the season, when he starts going after someone who has personally wronged him, his heroism-meter gets a bump.
That’s the Punisher in a nutshell
@@ashadeofblue6815 Pay attention to my wording, of course everyone would be a villain if they directed their power towards innocent people, but I´m not talking about that, I´m talking about what they do, their ACTIONS.
Spiderman just beats up people (pretty shitty villain if you can even call him that).
An anti-hero however may also murder, extort, threat, plant bombs, etc. (Example: Butcher in The Boys)
However, this characteristically villanous actions are forgiven, or at least tolerated, by the audience due to them being directed at (or being means to harm) even more villainous characters
PS: You may notice I have edited the comment it was just to change "his" for "their"
Red: _Puts together a well-edited and visualized video to talk about an interesting topic in such a way that would impress any college professor._
Also Red: "So yeah."
lmao
Speaking as someone who can also articulate a thought while also having no idea how to end it, I can vouch for the realism of this scenario. XD
“People who think Batman’s job would be a lot easier if he just used guns and that it doesn’t make sense that Superman doesn’t use his godlike power to just murder all his enemies.
I find these people irritating....”
THANK YOU!! I agree completely
You would
I used to not understand why they didn't do that, but now I do
Let me guess you think it’s annoying when people blame Batman for the actions of the joker . . . Even though everyone and their mother should’ve thrown that clown in a trash compactor after escape/mass murder number 2
@@hardcaselj111 Even if they did, in comics, baddies, and anyone in general come to think of it, don't tend to stay dead. It's only Uncle Ben and Batman's parents that stay dead.
@@tompatterson1548 so it's less the problem of the characters and more the retards that write the stories who seem to think dead just means sleeping
"Antiheroism is usually more of a vibe than a quantifiable value judgement"
Dam they really do be just vibing
bad meme
no u
Batman:
“Vibe Check”
@@aundersave *Buzzing is heard somewhere in the room.*
@@scottn.6088
bad meme
“I’m rude, self-destructive, traumatized, and miserable. Also, bisexual.”
Next time Red, just @ me circa 2017.
The miserable part comes from the fact that everyone is super attractive, but he’s too insecure to ask anyone out.
Vax’ildan? Who let you have a phone?
Just @ me right now tbh
Same but also Mexican
You're a Greek hero!
Probably someone: hey Red can you stop mentioning Avatar in Trope Tal-
Red: DID SOMEONE MENTION THAT AVATAR HAS LITERALLY EVERY LITERARY DEVICE
That's more Hello Future Me. He got challenged to talk about redemption arcs, without talking about Zuko and went "How dare you I'm going to use him as the main example. Who do you think I am!"
Sam & Dean Winchester from CW’s Supernatural would probably count as anti-heroes (especially Dean) due to the fact that in addition to saving people, they also have questionable morals & ethics: (committing credit card fraud, impersonating authority figures, entering sealed crime scenes, committing theft, etc.)
Thats not not being a hero, that's just being chaotic
@@joaofarias9986 chaotic good, but Sam and dean often are antiheroes
@@FreshZCORD They act too selfleslly too many time for not being heroes
ок
@@joaofarias9986 I disagree. The vast majority of their actions, including the reason they even took up hunting to begin with, are all selfishly motivated, even getting to the point where they bring on the apocalypse for the 100billionth time because they refuse to sacrifice the other or let them die.
_"I like underdogs, I like anti-heroes -- people that have hard time overcoming things in life."_
*~ Matthias Schoenaerts*
Ah Mathias shoe-doctor. Such a great guy
Nice quote
@@TheRealGuywithoutaMustache Hi!
I actually think that the real difference between heroes and antiheroes is that heroes work to overcome their flaws while antiheroes refuse to do so, some even seeing them as virtues.
What about people who have a hard time dealing with EVERYTHING in life, like unwanted News, dangerous progress and wanted to forget that people with deviant sexual behavior exist, and... OH God, I'm Lovecraft only not racist and latin.
Can you describe antiheroes?
Red: Well, yes, but actually no.
>the color red
That's a pretty good description of antiheroes
"70 white dudes, a few anime dudes, Blade, Black Widow, and Elektra..."
I am wheezing.
Is it just me or are those "3 anime dudes" specifically Vegeta, Zuko and Sasuke? XD
EDIT: Before you “Well Actually” me on wether this character is an anti-hero or that character isn’t from an anime, please actually read my original comment. All I asked was if the little figures Red drew resembled those characters.
@@MsDinova I feel that Zuko is not a anti hero but a villain turned to a good hero.
@@saqibahmed7740 is he really a villain if his country can progress the world and the rest of the world won't accept it. From propaganda pushed on him since birth he didn't know what his country was doing was oppression
Yes, he is a Villain from the point of the 🦸🏼♂️. His Backstory not matter, his Actions.
saqib ahmed Even in season one, at his most villainous, he had enough heroic traits to be considered an anti villain, which is part of what made his slow turn to hero more natural.
The way I take it is this: Don't write a hero or a villain. Write a person, and let their actions speak their role. As with the Anakin Skywalker example, if a person is written well enough they can be the Hero, Villain, and Antihero all in the same lifetime without really changing anything but the situation they are in. The best characters stay true to their characterization.
Nobody:
Someone writing an antihero: "Be Gay, Do Crime."
So pied piper from the flash???
The Riddler?
@@benjamincuevas9627 wait riddler was gay???
@@gundamfan7541 it's a joke but you can totally imagine him as gay.
Omar from the wire
“90’s antiheroes” do you mean: shadow the hedgehog
Ehhh... potato, pa-dildo.
A character from the 2000s
HUH
I love that guy
@@justbny9278 He still exhibits all of the traits that 90's antiheroes exhibited at their peak; he just did it long after it went out of style.
"Damn"
- Shadow the Hedgehog
What I was supposed to take from this: the anti hero archetype is made up and doesn’t matter
What I actually got from this: red, the UA-camr who gives off the most English/creative major vibes, is actually a math major
She is secretly the antihero that doesn’t follow the norms
OH WAIT IS RED SECRETLY AN ANTIHERO?
According to this video, yes because anti hero rules are arbitrary 😜
Math and Computer Science
I think Artemis Fowl pulled a reverse Anakin.
He went from villian to anti-hero to plain hero...
“The spiciest option on the protagonist menu”
Radiation is just spicy air.
Spicy light*
Why are you HERE bright?
@Ignore Me Could’ve sworn that “internet access” was on the List
Ignore Me Why not?
Brennan Ruiz What can I say, I’m a man of *BRIGHT* ideas.
"Paragon heroes with very angry motivations" *Doomguy would like to know your location*
They killed his pet rabbit he had every right.
@@kiraramirez2776 for Daisy never forget!
Rip and tear gentlemen
this is honestly really funny
I was thinking the same thing.
Also, in which quarter would this put John Wick into? (He's definitely inspired by Doomguy and you can't change my mind)
The way I always saw it was:
Heroes do the right thing for the right reason.
Antiheroes do the right thing for the wrong reason.
Antivillains do the wrong thing for the right reason.
Villains do the wrong thing for the wrong reason.
I understand this may be oversimplified though.
It might be oversimplified but I do think it is a helpful generalization all the same
Before you can color with shades of grey, you need to have access to blacks ⬛ and whites ⬜.
yeah but like, right and wrong are subjective maaann, no really though the way plot represents someones actions is usually more important than the actions themselves, that sort what she was getting at with the character of Anakin, someone who has seen to be a hero, a villain, an antihero and everything in-between depending on what piece of media you consume with him in it.
This is basically the video's X/Y axis chart.
Hahaha "oversimplified though"
I have an Troup Talk idea. Hairstyle Shortcuts. Using hairstyles as a shortcut for how a character "should be". Sausage curls on a damsel in distress, bun for a smart librarian, etc.
That would be really cool! Other design shortcuts could also be fun like red and black being evil colors or what you dress your character in defining what they are.
@@specterghost9385 True.
Side tail for “I’m gonna die in 10 minutes”
AKA
Blonde hair = Highschool bully
Brunette= "not like other girls"
@@abridge2 Side tail/plate = I'm the mother type. Also...yes they are going to kill me unless your Kasumi Tendo.
"I will not be accepting criticism at this time"
that made me laugh more than it should have lmao
My husband just inflicted me with this pun, and so I must now share my pain...
"Whatever happened to the Uncle-Heroes?"
I'll see myself out, and drag the other half with me.
I trust his retribution will be swift and terrible
They all just retire and open tea shops.
Uncle Hero powers include finding quarters in people’s ears, capturing noses and the dreaded “pull my finger” attack...
... i don't get it.
He got shot to inspire the hero to use their powers for good.
The reason Spider-man isn't an antihero is because despite being thrown into dark places of his life he always pulls himself out with determination and a will to fight on stronger than ever before. "Anyone can win a fight when the odds are easy! It's when the going gets tough. When there seems to be no chance, that's when it counts!" - Amazing Spider-Man #33
That's probably why, in my darkest most depressed years, Spiderman was my favorite superhero.
I wonder how many people with long term depression in their life also like spiderman?? is there a venn diagram for this somewhere that's actually accurate???
SOMEONE GET ME A GOVERNMENT GRANT! I HAVE A MENTAL HEALTH THEORY TO TEST!!
One story that I think shines an interesting light on this is "Kraven's Last Hunt", where Kraven "kills" Spider-Man and buries him alive, before briefly becoming a "better" version of him. It's interesting, because it's quite clear that Kraven has utterly misunderstood what Spider-Man is about--he thinks it's about being more ruthless and better at killing, but that's something Peter has no interest in exceeding Kraven at. Kraven wins by his own standards, but never realises those standards are only important to him.
@@paulgibbon5991 A good example indeed! I wanted to post that one but i haven't seen that in years and didn't remember enough to post confidently.
@@OriginalCreatorSama Well I like him and I fit both criteria lol. But also I've loved him since a kid back when I didn't have depression yet (only C-PTSD) so a big portion of that might just be that I was always "a Spidey person".
I think what is appealing to me about Spidey the most is that he doesn't really "assume moral superiority", he feels like the dude who thinks and asks what is the right thing, and ponders about that. Like you get the feel that if you'd meet him, he'd ask you what's wrong and actually listen and consider if he can't help. His heroism doesn't stem from being the right person knowing what needs to be done, but from being kind and considerate, he's not a "greater good" type character IMO. It's also why I think most edgier versions of Spidey usually failed.
I'd say you can see this best in the way Spidey treats his villains. Not only is he interested and feels sorry for them, he usually doesn't consider them straight up evil - he recognises they need to be stopped and he stops them, but that's kind of where it ends. Many heroes don't kill their villains, but Spidey feels for them. He's an empathetic person.
Well there was that one story line where Spider-Man basically needed The Punisher had to snap him out of the kill your villains mentally
The trope talk were Red walks around her self for 17 minutes, regrets her life choices then calls it a day. I love it.
I love this on so many levels.
It is so well written, though I remember Stan Lee talking about the subject and shedding light on The Punisher and his roll as an anti-hero.
At the time, only villains killed and heros locked up their opponents. That is, until The Punisher was first printed. Marvel faced a lawsuit from concerned parents hoping to ban the story and possibly close Marvel.
In reply Marvel simply said "Punisher isn't a hero." And coined the term anti-hero. Their definition was "a hero is a person who always does good and never kills, while an anti-hero is a hero that kills"
Hence why Deadpool is another anti-hero most of the time, as he's basically an immortal Spiderman who kills.
That comment should be the very first one.
bump
the term "anti hero" existed long before the punisher, and the punisher doesn't even fit the definition
@@slkjvlkfsvnlsdfhgdght5447 until the Punisher was taken to court as it was Marvel's first "hero to kill someone", the term did not relate to comics. Stan Lee used the term in order to get out of a legal battle.
It is the same reason Marvel did not get sued again recently when Ryan Reynolds first put on the red suit.
@@Maninawig maybe he is the first "anti hero" in comics (though I doubt it considering the medium started in the 30s and the punisher only came into ebing in the 90s), but that still doesn't mean that stan lee coined this term
“3 anime dudes, Blade, Black Widow and Electra” is a MOMENT
She missed Spawn in that listing
@@blackvialTHANK YOU!!!
I picked out Vegeta and Sasuke... but I don't know who the middle anime guy is...
False: Our lord and master Shadow 'The Ultimate Life Form' the Hedgehog is not among that list
@@callaae Lelouch from Code Geass. (Arguably the most liked anime character)
“Heroic traits can lead to unheroic actions in the right circumstances”
*Dante sent you a friend request*
This is what I live for! I'm absolutely CRAZY ABOUT IT!
How's the dude getting a tour of the afterlife unheroic?
@@PintoRagazzo devil may cry dante.
What "unheroic" actions has Dante done?
Which Dante? Devil May Cry? Warhammer 40k? Dante's Inferno (the game)?
I LOVE the usage of the image of Batman and Raven because of its involvement in the tumblr post that basically goes: "can you see this Batman consoling a child? If yes then he's in-character; if not, he's a shitty Punisher knock-off."
That quote comes from Red
There are stories where he has lollipops in his belt.
That’s an OSP reference
When you say Raven, do you mean Ace?
Red: "How did I talk about this for fifteen minutes?!"
Answer: Because you are awesome. Keep up the great work.
Alternate answer, you didn't, it was 19 minutes and 50 seconds. :)
Never thought I’d hear anyone describe something from Star Wars as “consistent”
I would, but normally only if the person made the description before 2015. Back then, there was consistency, worldbuilding, good character writing. Then, everything changed when the Mickey Mouse Corporation attacked...
Wonder if the writer planned for that to happen....
@@matthewmuir8884 Yes, the series that said Jango Fett, and by extent Boba Fett, were not real Mandalorians in The Clone Wars while the Legends canon said they were only got inconsistent when Disney bought it. You don't have to like modern Star's Wars, but don't lie to yourself.
@@DankeDummkopf First, I never actually read the EU material. Second, I had heard about the change to Jango Fett in The Clone Wars and I disliked it. I much prefer the original 2D Clone Wars show that had far better continuity and a far better General Grievous.
@@DankeDummkopf in a sense jango wasn't originally a mandalorian, it wasn't until he was adopted by a mandalorian soldier and trained as a mandalorian that he became a mandalorian. This is because, and if im not mistakened if this is in legends, the term mandalorian grew more than just being a species, it became an idea, culture etc etc, so even if you werent born as an actual true mandalorian, who were a species of tall alien creatures if im not mistakened, it is possible to become a mandalorian or be raised or trained as one.
"I'm rude, self-destructive, traumatized, and miserable. Also bisexual"
11 days into the new year and you're already attacking me
So if I'm (mostly) polite, encourage self-love and acceptance, educator about mental health issues, and oddly content bisexual, does that make me an anti-anti-hero? Or possibly your long lost twin sister.
@@clarienne7583 I'm polite, relatively functional, content, and asexual. I'm more anti-anti-hero than you!
@@timothymclean you're asexual, you're clearly a villain
@@pedroivantaveraferreira3037 Or possibly a robot.
@@clarienne7583 that would fall into the "hero" area.
Being able to describe The Punisher as a Mary Sue is a delight
Well any character can became a Mary sue and any Mary sue can became a proper character, all depends from the writer and the ability that holds and comic books have too way many different writers, that's why comic book characters have plenty of good stories as well that plenty that are just power fantasies
@Crypticangel like everything, if we put in the work to don't use burned terms by people we wouldn't saying a sh*t for a good measure
@Crypticangel being fair I wrote with little to no decor, I meant: if we tried to avoid overused words we may won't be able to talk at all
Punisher fans realizing he's a mary sue: no no no no no no wait wait wait wait wait
@@perseusfateprototype but he’s not. Read punish max. Or any punisher written by Garth Ennis.
“How did I talk about this for 15 minutes?” - me after talking to a random stranger about how weird it is we never see a baby pigeon
Thanks, I hate it
TheRogue 😂😂
If it’s about the baby pigeons: they don’t leave the nest until maturity.
If it’s about the outcome of the conversation with the stranger: they sort of just smile and nod politely while they edge away and look for an excuse to leave the conversation
its cause birds don't exist
Pigeons are just CIA drones. They recharge by landing on power lines
"With a wife he likes alright, and a boyfriend he likes way more."
Aaaannnd now my laptop has soda and saliva all over it.
@Super Greyflash What're you implying? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
@Super Greyflash From... From what else? (concerned face)
Haha same
Me: talk about Anakin, talk about Anakin!
Red: A great example is Anakin Skywalker from The Clone Wars!
Me: YAAAAAS
We all know she's the literature/media queen. >:3
He lived long enough to see himself become the villain.
With great powers comes the ability to choke a bitch from a good distance
Boo! That guy became the very thing he swore to destroy!
So, after watching this, I've come to realize that Lancelot du Lac is in fact an anti hero.
I think the interesting thing is that he only later became an antihero When cultural values shifted
As T.H. White wrote him, definitely. He calls himself Le Chevalier Mal Fet for a reason.
14:40 “There’s tons of lists of best anti-heroes in fiction and they’re all like 70 white dudes, 3 anime dudes, Blade, Black Widow and Elektra.” 😂😂😂
Best line of the vid!
Personally I don't have a problem with white people or Blade.
@@vulkanofnocturne Red doesn't have a problem with white dudes either, she's just saying they're way too prevalent in fiction.
Also, why'd you add Blade? Why would you have a problem with him?
@@ravenfrancis1476 whoops. Looks like you activated his trap card.
I find that statement bothersome. You honestly can't objectively criticize that most protagonist with a niche label are part of a single group, when that group was mainstream for 80 years while the other groups just became more mainstream friendly in the last 15, 20+ for the less niche groups like Asians. The antihero label was even considered a bad label to have for your hero till the 90's, so of course people wouldn't give their protagonist from niche groups a negative label unless it was for plot reasons. I honestly wish red would take more recent examples when she tries to make a point. It's obvious why there's so many white protagonist if you make a list that dates back to before the 80's.
You know, comic book antiheroes' mentality of "Why fight them over and over again when you can just kill them once?" doesn't make sense in a medium where death only lasts a few issues.
“Don’t you realise, death is no object to most of the enemies we deal with? Quite frankly, as an alternative to some of the super-punishments we’ve had to devise over the years, execution’s a walk in the park. These ‘no-nonsense’ solutions of yours just don’t hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel.”
- Superman, _JLA Classified_ #3
@@Punaparta Supes telling it like it is. :o
While this is a valid argument, there’s still the fact that not every villain gets to come back (when they do it’s usually magic or reboot interference), so maybe they’re looking to get lucky?
Theres also the fact that if you set out to kill all bad guys, then the bad guys will fight to the last man, since they'll die anyway. While someone with the powers of superman wouldn't care, batman most definitely should. Since prolonging a fight means that the odds of someone getting in that one lucky shot increases dramatically.
If only the justice department put more funding into the prison system, this debate wouldn't exist. Seriously, the Joker breaks out of jail as easily as a grumpy teen breaks out of his parents'house, and he doesn't even have superpowers!
"It's not really a thing that means anything" - Red
"I mean... things mean things!" - Lindsay Ellis
Now I'm even more confused
Yeah, the truth about things resist to be simplified, but we try to simplify them when explaining them to make it easier.
Well, everything means something, but where most critics tend to have an issue is in accepting that things don't necessarily have a DEEPER meaning. The tools a character uses to do something, or the manner in which they do so, isn't always meant to reveal a greater truth...either about the character itself or the author/director/actor's view on any particular issue. Sometimes it's just a tool for moving the story along. It's time to leave Freud in the past.
Well, you could always form your own opinions. Typically, people with obvious political leanings but little actual awareness of what they're suggesting arent very good teachers.
@@brosephnoonan223 Says Heimskr. I don't know if I have a safe game where you didn't die because of a horrible accident
See, the problem here is that language isn't like architecture, we don't plan ahead and build language, instead we generate meanings from use.
For words: shared-use = real-meaning.
For example, the word/expression 'Meh' didn't exist before the year 2000, but by 2010 most people used 'meh' and so that shared collaboration built a shared meaning.
Now 'meh' means something because we used it to express one emotion often enough, so that it came to be the word we use to represent that concept, we built up that meaning.
The catch is, a word needs very specific in how we use it or its metaphorical 'foundation' is unstable.
The word anti-hero is not specific, and that's the problem. It means ThingS plural instead of meaning A Thing.
Since the purpose of words is to communicate, having them only used for one specific thing makes them more useful and 'wordy' so to speak, since then they really represent 'something' not just 'things' nebulously.
So yes, words do mean things, but not all words are equal. Words not capable of meaning A Thing, barely mean anything. Make more sense?
"Anakin's core traits never change. Only the context he finds himself in."
And that describes Eren Yeager to a T as well. The reason why he's so scary is that he went through the same transformation from hero to villain without actually changing at all.
Eren was never a hero. He was always bloodthirsty and driven by revenge and ego, it's just that the framing of the story masked most of that by having his goals align with saving humanity from an existential threat.
Your description of superman is one of the best descriptions I've ever heard of him. Too many people these days treat him as a sad sack or pit him against some super strong villain in an ultra powered boxing match and don't explore the nuance. Thanks!
So true, although Superman & Lois is one current tv show that does an excellent job of exploring the depth and humanity of Superman/Clark Kent.
"How did I talk about this for 15 minutes?"
Thanks Red, I laughed so hard at this. Yeah, the concept of the Antihero is definitely not concrete.
Unlike the actual concrete I imagine many antiheroes have used at one time or another... For reasons.
"i'm not your hero. kid, I just ain't about to watch a kid die." "not if there's something i can do about it...." Now run along home kid, I'm sure your parents are looking for you. " looks at his tracking device* "and I still have work to do." runs off to pursue the enemy he let escape.*
where’s that from again?
@@esobelisk3110 I kind of was just giving a made up example, but you could relate it to soldier 76 if you wanted to?
@@gamithemighty5932 that’s cool :) I just felt like I recognised the dialogue from somewhere
@@gamithemighty5932 Jack Morrison is 100% a hero. He consciously decided to save the kids' life in his cinematic even if he says that the mission is all that matters. He is the definition of a vigilante.
The definition of antihero that most resonates with me is a character who does the wrong things but for the right reasons.
a anti hero is a guy who do good things for selfish reasons, (like deadpool, most of the time when he is helping the heroes or killing a villain its because he is getting paid for that)
Or they are good people who dont have a problem in killing or torturing their enemies (like the wolverine, a guy who have good heart and saves people because he know thats the right thing to do, but still dont have a problem in behead his enemies)
AH THE JERK SUE, THANK YOU SO MUCH for giving a name to this trope. I have been writing and gaming for a long time and see a LOT of people write these types of characters and it's really frustrating because they're NOT fun to play with.
There's an entire page about them on TV Tropes as well as pages of other Mary Sue type characters.
Yes, I mean, I can see how some may come into existence as power fantasies, but there's WAY too many out there and they also really don't belong in anything that's collaborative.
Jerks, sure, but not practically immortal all powerful villains by another name that one's not supposed to beat.
Ugh, yeah those guys are just _no_ fun.
I feel like it says something about the creators of these characters that their fantasy is to be an asshole.
Specifically to be arseholes, and not get called out for it.
Heroism leading to self sacrificing tendencies?
*MIDORIYA MY BOY, YOU HAVE BEEN SUMMONED*
Midoriya breaks a few fingers. Taylor Hebert destroys her entire social support system (on top of throwing herself into battles against vastly superior foes repeatedly, but the injuries she sustains from that aren't remotely intentional). And that's not getting into the finale, but that'd be a ginormous spoiler, so...
@@timothymclean Midoriya broke his entire body in the fight with Muscular.
@@JackClockerinos He could still move around and fight a bit for the rest of the arc. His whole body was banged up, but only part of it was actually broken.
And if we're seriously comparing who broke themselves the worst, I'd recommend looking up spoilers for the last arc of Worm, because I'm not spoiling them here.
I raise you Emiya Shirou. While his adoptive father approached it from an more anti-heroic cynical methods to achieve idealistic goals, shirou emiya has an unhealthy heroism that almost gets him killed more times than I can count. Tohsaka even calls him out on it in Unlimited Blade Works and his complete lack of understanding of how broken he is is terrifying.
@@timothymclean Speaking of worm, where do I start? I've been trying to get into it but the website is utter ass and I can't find the proper start.
"Anti-hero" is the "alt rock" of character archetypes.
Like, an offshoot of the original? Or it isnt valid in its characterization or creation? I agree, its similar, but both are valid
so overused as a title it now means nothing
“pop punk” would also fall in there i believe
I like alt rock. Red hot chili peppers all the way!
Odysseus being an anti-hero is the reason why I love him so much
“70 white dudes, 3 anime dudes, Blade, Black Widow, and Electra”
Sounds like a party to me
Which anime dudes did red draw
I NEED to know
BRINK OF PURE AWESOMENESS JOHNSON one is Sasuke but I can’t make out the others
@@brinkofpureawesomenessjohn2064 the left one looks like Vegeta the middle one i would hazard a guess as Zuko maybe, really shoulda been more anime i mean all yu yu hakusho main characters fit the bill in variyng degrees
The thing is she forgot one anti-hero of color, Spawn
@@cactuscrisis4521 I dunno, Yusuke and Kuwabara are more just grumpy heroes; Kurama is arguably the most heroic being calm, polite, and rarely if ever harming anyone who isn't explicitly a villain; Hiei is about the only one who fits but after his initial introduction he slides into grumpy hero pretty smoothly, albeit one a bit more bloodthirsty than Yusuke or Kuwabara.
The Jerk Sue character type is also usually the author’s mouthpiece (a topic I think is worth covering).
I believe there is a trope for this called "Author Insert". Been a while since I browsed TVTropes
@@kylenguyen7371 Author Insert is a trope, but it does cross over with Jerk Sue characters, especially when the author wants their character to be both edgy and "right".
To be fair in the context of being social ideal for heroes and social non ideals for villans everyone is a mouthpiece for the author just some more subtle then others
I’m trying to fight against this SO HARD (because the hardest things I’m trying to evade with the story I’m telling are: protagonist-centered morality, jerk sues, and Might Makes Right)!!! I want the story to be about how violence can be necessary evil to ensure the protection of the innocent, Might for Right (the idea that those with strength and power should use it for the greater good and doing otherwise is wrong), and that no cause is more noble than to fight for someone else’s happy ending; bad guys dead, zero innocent casualties, good guys win, happily ever after, the end.
@@ThatRandomEncounterGuy Look up Demolition man. There is a scene where the main character blows up a mall in order to save a girl. When the press starts questioning his methods, the little girl in his arms says "Fuck you, lady!"
"Is it heroic to change the world or to preserve the status quo..."
This is basically the plot of Shin Megami Tensei...
Law and chaos end up more nuanced than that. Which is the problem with committing to one of them. You end being locked into things you don't agree with
It's also a recurring theme in Marvel and DC.
And even splatoon
@@derekskelton4187 And then there's Neutral, which ranges the gambit from Nocturne's answer of "let's just go back to before all this Conception shit went down" to Strange Journey's "Why can't I just destroy the Schwartzwelt?
You went WAY DEEPER into this than I ever have.
I've always defined an anti-hero as: Someone who breaks laws in order to stop other people from breaking more/worse laws.
My typical example is Deadpool murdering a murderer so they don't murder more people. By committing 1 murder, he stops that person from committing multiple more in their lifetime.
Well,sure as hell my character is a divine killing machine named Mr.Edgelord and i'm pretty sure his kill count is huge,but let's count all innocent lifes saved.
So every superhero is a an anti-hero?
In one comic(saw in UA-cam Shorts) Deadpool literally decides to kill Santa Claus just because he didn't bring kids their presents 💀
Superman and Spider-Man are vigilantes. That's breaking the law. There's also the massive number of laws heroes break just by flying. The many times powers have been legislated as counting as weapons, every hero who steps near a school is breaking a law.
"Language is made up anyway..." I think we broke Red.
Or did Red just break language?
“All words are made up.” - Thor
She's not wrong. Words are just vague sounds strung together in specific ways that we've assigned an arbitrary value which we all agree on.
(Except for people that disagree and use different vague, arbitrary sounds to mean the same thing.)
I've dipped my toe into linguistics a bit, and it's amazing how many words out there we think we have definition for, but then we start trying to define it and it turns into something like this, where the words we use to define it are really vague or rely on culture etc.
Language is just the specific order of noises we've all agreed means things. Asking for a person's name is just asking what noises to make to get their attention.
I think I’ve come up with an antihero definition :
A character who reflects who people are, and what they wish they could do without boundaries.
A hero reflects what people want to be.
A villain reflects what people are scared to be.
An antihero is just... people.
An Antihero might represent how people expect the world would see them if they were true to their ideals all the time and without reservation. I know that if I called out people on their foolish/stupid/selfish actions all the time, I'd be hated. But I also recognize that I desire to have the courage to do that.
@@Sorain1 So... Hero With Bad Publicity
Toe to Tip That's a Bart
that's pretty good
"What is an anti-hero?"
to quote red from the Kaiju trope talk "Ehhhhehhhh you know it when you see it."
She also said it in the Magic trope talk.
Do I?
maybe YOU are an antihero
To quote the daredevil show, "Sometimes it's easy to tell what something is, black and white, no in-between. Sometimes the grey area is larger then anything else, all of it blurred. And sometimes it's like p😉rn, you just know it when you see it"
Nah, the amount of people I’ve seen call Batman or Eren Jeager anti heroes is way too much. Grumpy heroes and sympathetic mass murderers are not anti heroes
Red: “the grouchy dad heroics that are always saving the day but with a bad attitude”
Me: Soldier 76
you mean daddy 76
Or Geralt de Rivia.
Classical wolverine!
@@Fluffkitscripts this is the best response to this
Maybe the real anti-hero was the friends we made along the way
"Netflix really likes this one I guess..."
"...toss a cOIN TO YOUR WITCHER, OOH-"
Valley of Plenty
@@blackvial Oh valley of plentyyyyy
Hm
In a few weeks you will have so many likes for this😂😂😂
I am unsure what's nicer: to see Anakin and _The Clone Wars_ cartoon be used as positive examples of something despite not caring for _Star Wars_ ultimately or to see those stupid 90s Antiheroes called out as the Jerk Sues they are/were.
Also I agree that The Punisher is basically a Villain Protagonist or at best an Antivillain who is slightly sympathetic and just tends to kill extremely horrible people. He's basically a "Serial Killer Killer", only the serial killers are mundane criminal organizations/families in his case.
Apparently, 90s fiction in general was rather weird.
@@Yora21 Perhaps, though I think the "XTREME!" phase of the 1990s largely infected only (American) fiction mostly aimed towards tweens and teens. It also depends on how you define "rather weird" when it comes to fiction in general given that is xtremely er...extremely subjective after all.
That said, now I can't help but try to picture an XTREME version of _Harry Potter_ given those were mostly 1990s fiction and given J. K. Rowling keeps trying to retcon that universe in silly, detrimentally unnecessary ways. ...This version of Harry has a katana for some reason, a skateboard that he gets to ride all over Hogwarts despite it being against the rules, and *way* too many belts and pouches.
Probably more like a mass murderer...
It doesn’t hurt that we have Dexter to serve as a compare-contrast - since he does all those things that the Punisher does, but we see a heroic moral backbone and process to him.
Like most comic book superheroes, it depends on the specific issue, run, or writer. In some, the Punisher's motives are more heroic, like being motivated by a desire to deliver justice in a corrupt system or by a desire to protect others. In other issues, he's motivated by more villainous stuff, like revenge or a raging murder-boner. His violence being solely directed at criminals guilty of particularly heinous crimes vindicates it a bit, too. Most people don't consider a character that's a war hero to be a villain just because he happened to kill a lot of people in a war, especially if the other side of the war is portrayed as evil. Waging a "war" against organized crime could be viewed similarly.
The Punisher's still a big dumb edgelord, though.
Are we setting the units for anti-heroism in degrees or radians?
Lul
Degrees, F radians
Personally, I would use grams or percentile.
where is your profile pic from???Which anime???
@@qweadd6987 it's fairy tail, though he doesn't have a mustache in the show
I think the reason Spidey stays in the hero category is because of his status as an everyman character. despite his power Peter Parker is just so damn relatable.
I think the label anti hero is the writers way to say “don’t act like this at home kids” so they don’t get in trouble with parents. That’s basically it.
Darth Maul, also from the Clone Wars portrayal, somewhat fits into the same category as the Punisher. His motivation is purely revenge against both Obi-Wan for cutting his legs off on Naboo, and revenge against Palpatine for ruining Maul's life by using him as a weapon to further his master plan. In the last arc of The Clone Wars, Maul's plan was to lure Anakin Skywalker to him on Mandalore, kill him, and deprive Palpatine of his new apprentice, Darth Vader. Even though Maul's actions are very unheroic, and his goals are very unheroic, if he had succeeded, he might have prevented the fall of the Republic and the rise of the Empire, maybe even stopping or at least delaying Order 66 and the fall of the Jedi. Later even in Star Wars: Rebels, Maul helps the main heroes several times because he opposes the Empire just as much as they do, and it's really only Maul's passion for the dark side of the force that prevents him from aligning with the good guys. You gotta love Dave Filoni's team for taking all the prequel characters and fleshing out their characters so much while keeping it believable that they are still the same as their movie counterparts.
My favorite part of Trope Talks is when it just falls apart into an anthropology deep-dive instead. A+
I wouldn't really place Punisher and Light Yagami in the same category. One knows they're a bad person and aims to spend the rest of their life killing worse people. The other one is a maniac with a god complex who actually has an end goal of ruling the world.
I guess Frank is easier to root for because his slippery slope mostly ends at horrible people in his immediate vicinity and nowhere else--there's no real end goal of exterminating every criminal on Earth, either. Light kills and screws over anyone who opposes him, and even those that help him, to protect his identity and further his pipe dream of becoming a god--killing criminals was just an excuse to tell himself he's a hero.
Except they do. They are the exact same character, just at different points of the same character arc.
Light Yagami doesn't start at "me is god" (in fact he first finds being compared to an angel to be funny). He just thinks the world is shitty because shitty people aren't dealt with as they should. 100% Punisher. And that he knows how it should be done and everyone disagreeing is wrong. Punisher again.
Then he gets the mean to act upon those ideals and start killing criminals by the thousands. Murdering people or using drugs? It's the same. If you do crime you're evil. Unless your target is evil, then it's okay. Anyway limits don't apply to him, because he's always right. Just like Frank.
And of course when people try to oppose him he starts killing them, because they're wrong and he's right, if he's stopped he won't be able to do what should be done, and he shouldn't have any limits because he's right.
Then he recruits people and uses the followers he has gathered to gain personal power and make himself a defacto dictator, because he's the only one right so of course he's the only one that can decide what's good for everyone. By then of course he'll think himself a god. After all he is always right and everyone has to follow him.
A last step Frank won't reach. Because he is a massive Gary Stu, and the plot will bend in any possible way to make sure he IS always right and none of his actions ever go wrong or out of hand.
People with different opinions ? They're wrong. Or evil. Or they'll have a change of heart. Or will conveniently stop from doing anything too drastic to stop him before we have to see what an unfettered, self-righteous, armed man is bound to do in that situation.
What if he makes errors and punishes an innocent ? Nope. He's always right. Because instinct or something.
Won't his ultra violent vigilantism in populated locations result in collaterals ? Nah, only evil people have collateral victims. Frank can discharge a shootgun in a crowded hospital multiple times and he won't hurt anyone because sniper I guess (like, seriously?).
Won't that mindset push him to oppose any system he founds too laxist, while recruiting other violent people to fuel his crusade? None of that. All other options short of murdering people who do crime will always be shown to be corrupt ways for evil ones to escape true justice. And any "pro Punisher" will exist only to make Frank look cooler, in order to give the writers their plausible deniability when IRL cops start gluing Frank's logo on their cars.
The Punisher is easier to root for because he has the writers on his side.
While Yagami, even with his magic notebook and absurdly precise deductions, is a more realistic portrayal; with writers who are a lot more honest.
@@BenLafarge franks not a Gary stu. That’s just the writers problem.
@BenLafarge dawg Light saw the slippery slope and ran at it with a sled. He proclaimed he would be god of his new world before the end of the first episode.
Punisher is only in the same category when poorly written. When properly written he has the same motivation as other heroes. To protect innocent people and prevent others from having tonendure the kind of tragedy he did. He just disagrees with heroes over how best to protect people. And when serial mass murderers keep escaping to kill even more people he's not entirely wrong. He doesn't kill people just for getting in his way, he actively avoids killing people that he doesn't know to be guilty.
@@General_Weebus People also forget, the punisher is a character made during a time with high, and rising, crime rates. He is an antihero because the time he was made saw that as being an antihero. It is only later with our cultures far more liberal view that people like Red would categorize him closer to being a villain. Given what she had said during this video and the amount of talk about the punisher it would have been nice if she was explicit in stating the reason why the punisher is seen as an antihero.
@josephbolton5893 Punisher's very first appearance was as an antagonist in a Spider-man story but he was tricked by one of the actual villains and all of the bad press Spidey gets from the Bugle. He tells Spidey he doesn't enjoy it but he has to do it to protect people.
The real problem is he's a comic book character so his morality fluctuates wildly from writer to writer and Red only acknowledged the most uncharitable versions of his character. It'd be like talking about Harley Quinn and ardently ignoring that for more than half her existence she's been a villain.