Do you Need ZDDP in your engine Episode 411 Autorestomod
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- Опубліковано 11 лип 2024
- Do You Need ZDDP In Your Oil Episode 411 Autorestomod
This week we talk about ZDDP and what it is good for. We discuss why you should make sure your oil is adequately protecting your classic car. We discuss why ZDDP is good for Flat tappet cams. We talk about how too much ZDDP can harm catalytic converters.
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Jeff Ford Contact:
Jford@autorestomod.com
ZDDP does it help? Does it hurt? We discuss what Jeff Found out.
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Thank you for all your videos!
This is something I have often asked, since the reduction of zinc in all oils. Except specialty oils.
Short and sweeet! Sometimes a small snippet can carry well. Thank you all for the chemistry 101, 2.
Great information! Thank You!
You are welcome.
Great info, Jeff. Now to determine the upper limits of ZDDP for any particular engine design.
After 1400 ppm, you will start to get zinc pitting on the metal.
@@johnmilner7603 Thanks for the reply, John. You're not the only guy that I've heard about that had problems with their flat tappet quality. I agree with your recommendation of Howard's Cams laser cut, holed flat tappets if you have to use them. Their concept makes perfect sense to me. Howard's has been around since the beginning and after what seems to have been a hiatus, they've resurfaced as a reputable supplier once again. I wouldn't think that they'd want to trash their reputation of quality now, like some others.
I've also gone to the roller cam and rocker route on my 67 Mustang. I upgraded to a 5.0 crate engine a few years ago. I experienced some push-rod tip scuffing when using a synthetic API SL oil. I experienced this when I installed a set of higher rate valve springs per the camshaft manufacture's recommendations, but nothing extreme. After changing push-rods from two different manufacturers, I found that there was the same issue, scuffing after approximately 2,000 miles. The problem was solved by increasing the ZDDP content in the oil. Through my experience, even the old API SL rate wasn't enough of a cushion of lubrication for my performance application. An API SM should definitively receive some scrutiny in high pressure or high contact performance applications.
The only vehicle that I've got left with flat tappets is my old Ford 4.9 (300 cu in) I-6 that's in my 93 F-150 daily driver. I do add a bit of ZDDP with the API SM oil that I use today. I'm not going to use a $15 a quart oil in it, but I do use a name brand synthetic. As an FYI to those that don't know; STP original formula has a high level of ZDDP in it if they can't find any other source and need to add a bit to their oil. As we know, STP can be found just about everywhere. Thanks again, John for your constructive input.
So what ppm of ZDDP is good for our classics? Rebuilt Buick 455 (462) in my Skylark. I have about 500 miles on it. Builder used conventional Valvoline 10W-30 and a bottle of Lucas TB-Zinc Plus. I would rather just buy 6 quarts with the good stuff already in it.
Use the builders recommendation.
JMO.
Been running Rotella 15 w 40 in my fox body mustangs for 25 years. Best kept secret out there.
Yep. Be advised that many of the big rig oils are now having to reduce the ZDDP in the mix. BUT, with a roller cam, there shouldn't be as much to worry about.
I put about 6 ozs in my hd the other day, it was very noticeable, i was amazed how smooth it ran...😮
I Run ZDDP Additive 8oz to bring ZDDP Levels to 2500 PPM . No issues in My Twin Turbo GTS Stinger nor in My Ecoboost Twin Turbo SHO. ZDDP is VERY Important in Turbo Setups.
I run the Lucas zddp additive but im told that the high detergent oils will break it down and wash it away. True or false?
Great video. motor oil for non cat engines like small engine oils, motorcycle oils, outboard oils etc. still have higher levels of zinc. That's why you should always put in what the manufacture says.
Yep . The Manufacturers DO know what they're doing .
They ALSO have Regulations , from outside Agencies , that they are Legislatively REQUIRED to meet .
If your using an API SM rated oil then you need ZDDP. Valve train wear is linked to the additive package. The current API SM oils (any brand) feature lower levels of Zinc and higher levels of detergents for cleaner emissions. These modern API licensed oils do not have the proper levels of Zinc for flat-tappet engines (race or street). ZDDP is needed for pre-1996 gasoline powered vehicles.
I lost 2 solid lifter cams in my 70 Z28, the 1st was 3 lobes after 43,000 mi and the 2nd was 1 lobe after 8700 miles. The 2nd cam I was using Joe Gibbs BR break-in oil with my old springs, then I used JG 10w30 Hot Rod oil, then I switched to Valvoline VR1 racing oil with 1 bottle of GM EOS. I was in contact with Lake Speed Jr from Joe Gibbs about what happened to my 1st cam that got me about 43,000 mi but failed me when I switched to Mobil 1. I even asked the Mobil 1 rep at the Sema Show if it was safe to use in my 70 Z28 and 87 Grand Nat’l and he said yes. But Mobil-1 is an API SM rated oil.
For the 2nd cam, after the cam break-in and dumping the BR oil and filter I refilled with JG BR oil and ran it for 400 miles per Lake Speed. After that I swapped in the new springs and broke in the springs like the cam per Lake Speed.
Ya I know, whatever.
So I lost 1 lobe after 8700, and I blame todays crappy steel and hardening process because I was using the best oils. I have read that you need a min of 1200 ppm of ZDDP to protect your cam. So after losing 2 solid cams I said piss on it, I’m going roller this time and it’s been going on 7 yrs with over 10,000 mi with no issues.
That being said, if you people are still crazy enough to run with a flat tappet cam then if I were you, I’d be using Howards laser cut holed lifters for that extra oil protection. I didn't know about Howard's laser hole lifters when I was on my 2nd solid cam or I would have tried it.
Agreed. Keep it up Milner, I'm gonna make you my tech guy on here. LOL 😄😀😆
well, roller cams are so expensive, that you can risk losing a ca and buying two more than afford one roller cam, and the valvetrain to go with it.....
COMPCAMS will nitride a new cam and lifters for a reasonable charge.
Ask them.
Friggle
When you lose a cam you should completely strip the block and clean, and start over
Not cleaning increases your chance if more failures
Note: The Oil list was compiled in 2015, many formulations hacve changed since then.
The debate over ZDDP has been simmering on the internet for time immemorial, and seems to be reignited as each new API spec is introduced. But there seems to be a consensus over a few things:
1) ZDDP is critical when breaking in a flat-tappet cam and still important when breaking in a roller cam.
2) After break-in, there’s a delicate balance to be achieved, a kind of Goldilocks quantity of ZDDP to shoot for because at a certain point ZDDP compounds can exacerbate wear rather than prevent it.
3) Required ZDDP levels are correlated with valve spring pressures.
4) Even when you try to do everything right, as a previous commenter noted, you can still end up with trouble that appears to be lubrication related.
5) Oils with adequate amounts of ZDDP are becoming more of a specialty item, most of the oil on the shelf at your local parts store maxes out at 800 ppm.
Although it comes at a cost, going with a roller cam during a rebuild merits strong consideration.
Good stuff and all correct. There is SOOO much mud in the water (or oil as it were) when it comes to ZDDP.
I'm surprised this didn't get a lot more comments Jeff because there's so much debate on when and if zddp is needed. The man who owns the machine shop where I had my FE work done gave me some advice. His shop not only does machine work but also builds engines including a lot of race engines. He says the amount of zddp needed is related to valve spring pressure. The higher the spring pressure, the more pressure between the tappet and cam. He went on to say that no amount of zddp will save an engine from a bad break in procedure. The only time he recommends a zddp additive is when using non zddp conventional oil. He does this when testing/breaking in a roller cam engine. Adding an additive to zddp enriched oil can actually reduce the ppm of zddp in the overall mixture.
Thanks for the input!
How?
The 750 carb may not of given you more hp BUT the sticker that it came with they say was good for at least 10 hp.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I did forget about the stickers...I like stickers...😆
So .... No cats no problems? Niiice!!!!!!!!
How about your crank shaft main bearings, does zidovudine help them when worn
Not really. ZDDP is not going to make better oil pressure etc.
A little dab will do u!
Can you use ZDDP with modern cars or is it a waste of money? Does it provide other benefits apart from making a sacrificial coating on engine parts?
I've heard 800 ppm is the limit to avoid damage to catalytic convertors? Is that correct?
For late model engines I would go with the manufacturers recommendations.
@@AutoRestoMod They recommend the typ of oil and in bold text "DO NOT USE ADDITIVES"!
Pollutants and poisons are two different things. A "poison", regarding a sensor or a catalytic converter shortens, degrades or breaks functionality. One example of this happened years ago to me at work: a kitchen back door that had a gas detector near the top of the frame and just a foot from that... an old refrigerator that had a slow coil leak. Very slow, as in charge neded attention maybe every 10 months or so. And guess what: that refrigerant was rendering every gas head installed there inoperative in about 5 or 6 months. Any other place, those heads were good for almost two years.
What happens with a cat isn't so much poisoning as it is fouling - if the motor is burning alot of oil, there's where the zinc comes from but the overload of hydrocarbons will choke the engine down first.
Can i use higher zddp oils in modern tiny 4 bangers that is catless-straight pipied?
The question might be why? The newer engines are set up to not need the ZDDP (at least that is what I have seen and read. If you don't have catalytic converters, then you "could" run the ZDDP. But with the higher tolerances of the newer engines and the lighter weight synthetic oils they call for (many are 5W30, meaning 5 weight when running and 30 weight when cold) I don't think that the ZDDP would show any real benefit. Saying that, you really should consult an oil expert...and not an internet one. =)
@@AutoRestoMod Thanks for the response :) I guess I am looking to capitalize any benefits from not having a catalytic converter. Most of the reading I have found were primarily on ZDDP being taken away in favor for DPF/GPF/Cat protection . High end synthetic oil companies like Purol list 1700 ish ppm zinc values and Mobil 1 AFE lists 650 ppm zinc values. I have read that too much zinc will increase wear and shear, but maybe a bottle (½ a liter) of high zddp engine break in additive might be the sweet spot.
@@UtsusemiThe only reason I am using the Lucas ZDDP in my 1994 Nissan HB 4 banger is because the engine was completely rebuilt,cat removed. Using it for the break in period only which means I'm running that Lucas additive for only 500 miles then dumping it, then fresh oil fill/filter.
hello can i use rotella t4 15w40 diesel oil in my gasoline 1970 v8 flat tapped engine
Absolutely. Be careful though because some of the newer rotella's don't have the ZDDP that they used to.
@@AutoRestoMod Do you know if the modern 15w40 T6/T4 Rotella still have the ZDDP package? I've been told a lot of toyota pickup guys use rotella, I am considering running it in 1986 SR5 pickup
Short answer: if your engine doesmt use hydraulic lifters, the amswer is YES
I burn oil in my Chevy 350. Do I need to keep adding ZDDP?
ZDDP won't help that.
@@AutoRestoMod i know. My question was really if my oil level keeps going down, do I need to add to keep my ratio good? how much do I have to add if the level goes down say 1/2 quart every 2-3weeks?
LISTEN CAREFULLY - READ MY LIPS = Less is More
Where’s the list?
We put a card up. But the link is on our website: www.autorestomod.com/oil-zddp-list.html
The zinc will fall to the bottom of the oil pan if the car sits too long.
Not if you use Joe Gibbs oils like the Military does,.
No it won't!
1:18 - What's 'silicant'?
That is what it was called in the literature.
@@AutoRestoMod I see. Never heard it before. Thanks.
U can add 2 much zddp...
How much ZDDP is too much ?
I'd say an oil change with the older style Diesel oils would do ya.
The myth is busted. Many folks run rotella heavy duty Compression engine oil in thier everyday cars with Oxygen sensors and catalytic converter nonsense with no issues
I know of a retired truck driver who runs 15,40,T4 Rotella in his 4.6 Ford car.
50,000 miles.... Its sounds like a thrashing machine before the oil pressure comes up.
@@hotrodray6802 tell hom to switch to synthetic diesel oil. Better cold flow
How would "too much" ZDDP harm an engine?? That was never really explained.
We couldn't find a solid answer on this. In the face of no solid info, I wasn't willing to speculate. I "thinK" that too much Zinc causes wear issues, but as I said, nothing more solid than it is bad.
@@AutoRestoMod, If your ZDDP levels are too high for a long term use application (starting around 2000 PPM if I recall) then the layer that builds up is too thick and can cause very small galling on the tappets that wears them and the cam quickly. My understanding is that some specialty oils for drag racing go that high as the engines don't have to last for any significant time and often break through the oil film. I generally buy 4 quarts of SM formulated (normal) oil and one of a race oil where the oils mix to about 1000 ppm ZDDP. I have heard that for new cam breakin you should have more but I haven't needed to research that lately.
over 1400ppm zinc will cause pitting.
@@frigglebiscuit7484 Isn't 800 ppm the max recommended limit these days?
Zddp additive, not good for longtime oil change clean.
No. But there are recommendations for classics on that.
You did not give one example of how too much zddp can harm an engine. I feel, the only way it would affect the oil is, if you compromise the properties of the oil, but that would take way too much and I don't think we're talkin about that. When you're talkin about parts per million and you follow the guidelines of the additive you're using, you are not compromising the oil, just gaining the benefit of having it.
That s because I could find no definitive information. Only that it could hurt the engine. So I didn't want to say anything negative. One of my friends that works at NPD swears by additives and believes that the oil companies don't want us adding stuff to their products. I dunno. I can see his point that the additive helps. I even add ZDDP to my oil change on the F100 (personal thing) due to the flat tappet cam. My reasoning for say that you should just find a higher ZDDP oil is is that sometimes folks go to far. Find an oil that does what you need for ZDDP and go with that. Simpler than my voodoo and chicken blood ZDDP approach.
1/2 bottle of ZDDP in each oil change is the ideal, even with synthetic oils.
If an extra $5 per oil change is too much.... Maybe you need a cheaper hobby.
It clearly states in the oweners manual "DO NOT USE ADDITIVES"!! when useing the recommended oil.
@@markwarnberg9504 Depends on the vehicle and manufacturer. When those owners manuals were created oils actually had APPROPRIATE amounts of ZDDP. Adding it back in if necessary to achieve appropriate levels is just common sense.
@@felipetejeda7545 Due to emmition controls ZDDP has been replaced with other elements too protect the engine. The additives in todays oil work fine in new as well as older vehicles.
@@markwarnberg9504 That is probably true, modern engine oils are likely much higher quality as engineering has improved. However their is likely no harm in adding it back in if done at reasonable levels. It may just not be necessary.
@@felipetejeda7545 I´v read that Nas Cars use more ZDDP, but that is a totaly different class than everyday commuters.