Combat in Space (FFG Star wars)
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- Опубліковано 18 вер 2024
- An overview of the general rules of space combat with a specific focus on small encounters and dogfighting with smaller craft. A subsequent video will deal with large encounters and capital ships, and a later one will demonstrate a combat scene..
![Crews in Space Combat 1 [FFG Star Wars]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/hnyg73uTSt8/mqdefault.jpg)
![Crews in Space Combat 1 [FFG Star Wars]](/img/tr.png)
![Improvised NPCs [FFG Star Wars]](/img/n.gif)
Space combat is one of the things I've been dreading most about running when we play the Edge of the Empire beginner game this weekend. I'll have to watch this once more to cement everything, but I wanted to say thanks for putting this out there. I'm less nervous now.
If you use the Maneuvers and Actions as the explicit goal of the rolls you frame, and have the players describe appearance of what the ships do, you should have a blast~
Glad the video was helpful, have fun!
I just wanted to thank you for this video as well as your video on using the Force. They have answered a lot of questions that my group and I had, and cleared up a lot of confusion.
+Patrick Creson Glad to hear it! Which game does your group play?
+Runeslinger currently we have 3 players from EoE and one from FoD. one question, how do you determine the dice pool for piloting maneuvers? I can't seem to find it.....
+Patrick Creson Unless otherwise specified it's Piloting (type) vs your assessment of difficulty for that maneuver when there are no obstacles or vs the difficulties described under the Terrain heading of the Vehicles and Ships chapter.
+Runeslinger Ok cool. I have linked your videos to my group, and I am composing a document explaining the changes they can expect for the next session. It will be a lot smoother I'm sure. thanks again for all the info!
+Patrick Creson My pleasure~
This was great, I really enjoyed this. Will have to re-watch again, thanks.
I am glad you liked it~
Excellent video again! Really deep this time. I am told that it was not easy to produce, making it even more appreciated.
Thank you, kind sir~
Yeah, I was playing a pilot in a previous campaign despite not owning or even seeing the books(long story, but it was via Skype), so there was stuff that had to be explained to me.
I still had a cool moment though, where some thugs boarded our ship and were threatening to take our loot, had everyone else surrendering at gunpoint. But I was listening to all this in the cockpit, so I started flying us toward a sun until my crew beat down the surprised pirates.
Fabulous video! I’ve recently started the FF SW game and as a GM/player new to this system this was a really great conversation/explanation of the rules for space combat.
Thanks so you much.
I am glad that you found it to be useful! Have fun blowing things up in space~
This really helped me frame the basis of the idea and relate the guiding principles. Ultimately it's up to me and my players to add the meat to the bones and season to taste.
Many thanks
My pleasure; thanks for letting me know ~
Because of space combat, I'm almost beginning to be sold to this game.
Interesting!
As always, you are so helpful. I was really looking forward to this. Lots to absorb. Thank you!
Glad to hear it's useful~
Great video thanks! Now it will make reading the chapter so much easier!
My pleasure; enjoy the read (and then play!)
Your videos are great and really helpful! I'm new to Age of Rebellion and this kind of presentation and your clear, easy to follow speaking is just excellent! Keep up the good work! :)
I am glad the video was helpful, thanks for the kind words. Enjoy the game!
Thanks for this! I really appreciate your detailed explanations!
+Jason Williams My pleasure. I am glad you found some use in these videos~
This is a great damn video. My group glosses over space to the point where it is just narrative. I'm about to start running my own campaign with a different group and felt totally unprepared to handle space. This vid helps a lot.
Glad to hear it! All the best with your campaign~
Really great video. Very informative. Keep up the good work. Thanks for you effort.
My pleasure~
i'm planning on running a dog-fight one-shot for a group i'm GM'ing, get them to duke it out with the rebel scum in an asteroid belt testing new ships in the imperial arsenal. (i hadn't planned on them playing imperials but they all wanted to pilot TIE's when i suggested the one-shot)
what i'm getting at though is the fact that this video was very helpful, so thanks for that. :D
Deep gratitude for your work , very useful for beginners like me.
+Дмитрий Крамаренко I am happy to hear that these videos are helpful. Thanks for commenting~
Really liked this video, would definitely like ya to run through a small battle. That would help a lot :)
Have you seen my small playlist of Star Wars Actual Play videos?
This list might be of use:
ua-cam.com/play/PLZfuKgeD5fl6KXrqgqpEvEkF8hcyDbPJv.html
Legacy of Destruction, part 2 has the most combat in it of the videos here, but part 1 waa also done with commentary about how the session was run.
Excellently helpful, thank you very much for this.
+Kenny Wildman My pleasure~
GREAT video, keep making ones similar to these :)
This video was extremely helpful thank you.
My pleasure~
Aerospace? In Mechwarrior? I knew there was a reason I subscribed to this channel. :-D
Who doesn't love a good strafing run?
+Runeslinger the mech drivers! :-)
Bunch of whiners~
Ty so much for this. Helped me out.
My pleasure! Thanks for letting me know~
The PhD of RPG
First off GREAT video, i have been reading the AoR book in preparation for staring a table with my friends and started to lose hope on being able to learn the game when i got to the chapter that described space ships and space combat, so thanks for clearing things up. My only question now is when attacking in space with a ship i know that larger vessels use the gunnery skill but what about smaller snub nose fighters? Do they still use gunnery as well or is it a piloting check? Hope to hear from you soon and thanks again for the awesome video, hope you can keep them coming when you have time.
+ryan camarena Thanks for the kind words, Ryan. I hope you have a lot of fun with the game. To answer your question, fighter pilots use Gunnery for their ship's weapons~
Runeslinger - as a relatively new GM, I was hoping you could help me with a question.
To preface my situation, I have recently ran the Age of Rebellion Beginner Game Adventure twice; previous to this, I have not played a RPG game. I am currently preparing to run the Edge of the Empire Beginner Game Adventure with a different group of PC’s; this new group is an experienced gaming group, but has zero previous experience with RPGs.
All that being said, on to the question!
*** EDGE OF THE EMPIRE BEGINNER GAME ADVENTURE SPOILER ALERT ***
The final encounter of the adventure involves the PC’s gaining control of the Krayt Fang, a YT-1300 Light Freighter. My PC group for this adventure will consist of five PCs. Given the YT-1300 has four solid places for the PCs to crew the ship (Pilot, Gunner 1, Gunner 2, Engineer), this leaves the fifth PC to be the co-pilot.
I have referred the “Additional Starship and Vehicles Actions” Table on Page 237 in the Edge of the Empire rulebook. Clearly, this table lists only possible options for “actions”. Your videos have taught me to encourage the PCs to use narrative flair and creativity, but do you have any additional suggestions for Maneuvers and Actions for the Co-Pilot PC in this situation?
Lastly, besides the PC providing narrative flair for the moment or “aiming”, do you have suggestions for maneuvers for the Gunners in the Dorsal and Ventral Turrets?
Considering my group is new to RPGs, I am concerned that the fun of this YT-1300 crew encounter could be skewed towards the main pilot and the engineer PCs.
Thanks for your time, your videos have been invaluable homework tools helping to prepare for my next adventure.
Great question and I applaud your interest in making sure that you are ready for your part in an exciting session.
I have filmed a conversational video to get the topic going. I think that I will dig more deeply into it in a subsequent video, though. The first video will be up in a few hours~
Very well explained, thank you for making this video. I had a question in the form of an example to make sure I understand. Lets say as the GM I'm a Tie in a dog fight with my PC who is in a X-Wing and we've just engaged and I go first. In order for me to attack, I first take the maneuver action, which is an opposed piloting check, which if successful means I'm now behind him. Then I can make a gunnery check to attack. On his turn, before he can attack me, he must first make a maneuver which is another opposed piloting check, then if he succeeds on that maneuver now he is behind me and can take a shot. Do I have all that right? There's more I want to ask but I thought just to start simple.
In most cases, there will be no roll for the fly/drive maneuver, it is treated more like a cost and an opportunity to describe the action. As Strain builds, the pilots and the ships will be able to have fewer and fewer turns where they can perform two Maneuvers (eg: evasive maneuvers + accelerate/decelerate) and some ships might be restricted to just one unless the dice results award them an additional Maneuver. However, thinking of it as an opposed match-up where each pilot is seeking the right position where a shot will be possible is the right perspective.
When it comes time for the pilot's Action, they again have some choices and here is where the rolls will come in. Dogfighting is mainly handled by the Gain the Advantage action and you might see the advantage shift back and forth a lot in a fight between a TIE and an X-Wing. There are several specific benefit of this advantage. The first is being able to declare where your shots are going on the target ship, so you can choose a location not covered by shields. TIEs don't have shields so this is less important for the X-Wing pilot. We have to remember that one roll is not about one shot or one move, it represents an ongoing battle in space with all sorts of rolls, turns, shots, and attempts to get a good target lock. If the pilot gains the advantage, they have a much easier time getting a good attack roll opportunity - next turn: *if* they can keep the advantage.
Imagine: Rival TIE vs PC X-Wing and R2-N0
TURN 1
TIE: evasive maneuvers, 1 Maneuver>> AIM, 1 Maneuver >> Gain the advantage Action (roll: succeed)
Strain added for the 2nd Maneuver, TIE is at Speed 5
X-Wing: evasive maneuvers, 1 Maneuver >> Accelerate, 1 Maneuver >> Gain Advantage (roll at +1 Difficulty: fail), Strain added for 2nd Maneuver, X-Wing increases speed from 3 to 4, Shields angled to have both covering the front
X-Wing's R-2 unit: Fire Discipline Action (roll, good success with many advantages: uses some to give X-Wing a free out-of-turn Maneuver: X-Wing will aim)
TURN 2
TIE: AIM, 2 Maneuvers >> Attack Action (roll: succeed, apply damage to X-Wing, )
Strain added for 2nd maneuver, TIE is at Speed 5, Advantage will end after the X-Wing's turn
Shot takes no penalties from TIE evasive maneuver, Shot takes no penalties from X-Wing evasive Maneuver, Pilot fires into the unprotected rear of the X-wing (player describes getting behind it after tense moments trying to gain a superior position.
Rebel players switch initiative order because they can
X-Wing's R2 Unit: Angle Deflector Shields (1/1), 1 Maneuver >> Copilot Action (roll, success: -1 Diff for X-Wing Pilot)
X-Wing: Evasive Maneuvers, 1 Maneuver, Aim (out-of-turn, free, from R2) >> Gain the Advantage Action (roll still at +1 Difficulty but reduced to normal by R2's help as copilot; Success!), Speed 4, Both shields still forward
TURN 3
TIE: Evasive Maneuvers, 1 Maneuver >> Gain the Advantage Action (roll: +2 Difficulty: fail)
TIE is at Speed 5
X-Wing: Aim, 2 Maneuvers >> Attack Action (roll with 3 Aim and Fire Discipline, Success! Apply damage to TIE: BOOM)
Strain added for 2nd Maneuver, Speed 4, shields (1/1)
X-Wing's R2 Unit: Angle Deflector Shields (1/1), 1 Maneuver >> Damage Control Action (roll)
@@Runeslinger Thank you for responding. Ok I'm beginning to get it a little. So then theoretically, (with your example) there's nothing to prevent the X-Wing from the beginning of simply taking the "fly" maneuver and taking a "gunnery" shot, even if the tie "has the advantage"? True, his chances would be slim of landing the shot but he still could, right? I guess the part I'm having problems understanding is when can a X-Wing (or any ship with a forward only firing arc) take a shot? I appreciate your patience with this, I'm just trying to fully understand it so I can simply explain it to my players.
You have got it: If the pilots are in range, they can fire on each other.
At the beginning, with new characters, the players might feel like their best chances to hit are by just focusing on Attack. They might not have the skills to perform Evasive Maneuvers and still hit their targets. Likewise, they may not be able to fly at speed 4+ (necessary for Gain the Advantage) and succeed in any piloting checks to avoid asteroids, debris, or other terrain features. (The Destiny Pool can help with this, as can working in groups to assist each other).
One of the sources of fun in the combat is describing what the character did to make a particular shot possible, or how they avoided a potentially deadly hit. There are two factors that play into this:
1. there is no map so there are no fixed and permanent positions like "behind you"
2. we do not roll for each punch, shot, or for every second of a combat
The reason for this is that one roll does not cover one pull of a trigger, or one direction change of the ship - it covers a flexible amount of time filled with constant action. The die pool is built from all the factors that go into the Turn and the results let us know the outcome of all the interactions inside that flexible amount of time.
We can describe taking a mixture of shots that hit and miss, or are deflected by shields - even if the roll showed that we hit and scored 4 extra damage. We can describe one clean shot that scores a good hit, or a series of less-significant hits. We can describe trying to shake a TIE off of our tail and we can detail trying to match its maneuverability and failing. We can fill our Turn with all sorts of dramatic action, and build that around the results from our roll.
This video was paramount for me to understand Speed in EotE - excelent job.
However I still have some concerns. Provided example works great for faster ships, but how does it work for ships with the same Speed category. For example how it is going to work for PC Speed 3 YT-1300 and minion pilot Skipray with Speed 4?
From what I understand PCs can simply run away with two Fly maneuvers each round from theoretically faster ship, because minion needs to convert action to second Fly maneuver to keep pace and additionally takes 2 System Strain (so he will have to give up at some point to avoid crossing the threshold).
I am glad that the video was helpful, thanks for letting me know. Your question is a good one, and to answer it we have to apply some 'genre-thinking' to an escape like you propose and throw in some fancy piloting. From the rules alone, we can see that the two ships you propose have different top speeds, but are grouped in the same Maneuverability category (2-4) for the Fly Maneuver and what it requires/allows. Further, what we expect of a PC exceeds what we expect of a Minion. From the nature of Star Wars, we should expect redirection, trickery, the use of stellar terrain, better understanding of the limitations of a given ship, endurance and experience, and a willingness to ride the 'red line' and so on.
To get a second Maneuver in most cases in vehicle and starship combat or escapes requires giving up an Action (not a big deal in larger ships or in an escape attempt) or taking Strain. There are ways around that for a PC that will not, as you note, benefit a Minion, such as Master Driver. Alternately a co-pilot might be able to assist. What that amounts to is that if one of the ships has controls (described as rare) that allow two pilots to share two Pilot Only Maneuvers between them, then they do not have to take Strain, but the ship still does. Your example of the YT-1300 vs Skipray could be one such example.
This would also apply in the case of Unmatched Mobility where the PC gets an additional Maneuver. Ships of the scale you describe can take 1 Maneuver without System Strain; a second causes System Strain. There are Talents which address or adjust this cost, but that is the basic rule. As a result, if we are pushing the ships with the use of 2 Maneuvers, they might give before the pilots do. Either way, Strain on the pilots or on the ships will build as the slower (Speed 3) ship tries to keep distance enough to accomplish its escape (jump to hyperspace, reach a fleet, find a cave on an asteroid with air and humidity, etc).
If there were a single pilot in each starship, without a specific Talent to govern available Maneuvers, the use of two for the purpose of escape in one ship and pursuit in the other will build Strain and System Strain in both. If the pilot in the slower ship is the better pilot (better skill, higher Strain threshold, etc) they will be able to do things to get away from the faster ship - the fun now lies in describing what those things are~
Flowery language doesn't change the fact that the dominant strategy is "perform an action that gives you a good shot, then take the shot". If the primary way to make space combat interesting is to force players to "relieve their glory days of high school drama class" when explaining the same maneuvers ad nausea ... it's a bad system.
The other reason people dump on space combat is limited options imposed by ships. I've seen some unhinged creativity in ground combat in Edge: starting a riot just before the bad guys arrive, causing a stampede of dewbacks, hostage meat shields using imperial officers. Then the players jump into a ship and they have 6 options to pick from, and that's it. Unless the GM adds something of "horrible theoretical structure that goes against the spirit of the game," those creative players will want space combat to be over with ASAP so they can get back to being Old Man Hendersons.
My problem is space combat is deadly and costly as a player i dread it and wish to just GTFO
@@certanmike late reply is late = this fact is compounded by how much of it is up to blind dice checks rather than creativity. It's hard to pull off "creative solutions" with the provided rules, meaning that MASSIVE penalty you mentioned stings even more.
@@ryanbutcher8357 true even the rules for space stuff is lacking ie if detecting ship with scanners is automatic then why have gear that upgrades checks to detect them
@@certanmike due to me de-emphasizing space, kinda didn't realize this. :o That's a bit of an oversight compared to the rest of the game.
Two points: I really feel handling should play more of a role in evasive actions and gain the advantage i.e. once at close range its speed difference and handling factor into the actual dog fighting.
Second point: the higher speed verhicle has initiative on closing moves. Its the only way it makes sense. Whats 130ms of reaction time when one ship can fly much faster.?
Handling directly affects the piloting roll, so it is intrinsically linked to any piloting that matters. For description, the genre of the game and films has an opinion on which matters more in the question of the influence of machine or pilot (it's the pilot).
Initiative is not just a matter of speed, but also of awareness and reactive prediction. The person again influences how an exchange takes place, not the machine involved.
This could eating be portrayed differently in a different genre where the machine is mote important than the meat, such as Shadowrun~
Sir: at 16:35 your annotations note that the cost to "engage" is not explicit but is implied on p245. I have been unable to find any such implication but probably missed it - HOWEVER I did note that it says starship moves and ranges operate (within limits of good sense) the same as in personal scale described from p213. On page 217 it clearly states the personal ranges to be: extreme-long-medium-short-ENGAGED ... for space, the "engaged" range equates (I'd argue) to the "close" range ... Your previous answers below merely agree that close = engaged without explanation. I understand that your later example (and annotation) explain WHY you have this house rule, but for the life of me I cannot find the implication of a "6th" range band ('engaged') ... please elaborate & point out where the implication is. HOLD THE PHONE: think I found it ... are you referring to "close with something in close range"? because those are YOUR WORDS (annotation at 35:09) and are NOT the words on p245 ... the closest it gets is "move WITHIN close range" as opposed to "move INTO close range" ... is THAT your justification? ... I would quibble that one can always move WITHIN a range band if speed >0 (that is what distinguishes ANY speed from speed zero) ...
+Bob Brown Thanks for paying such careful attention. That is great to see! As you noted, I do think my explanation is justified by the use of the same combat procedures as personal combat (melee weapons equating to close range weapons) and the Accelerate/Decelerate Maneuver for Speed 1. I also think, and hope I made clear, that I think this is very vague in the text (just implied) and can be safely ignored, as can my explanation of the benefits of using a Maneuver to Engage with Close Range weapons.
+Runeslinger
I'd been pondering whether to remove my comment as I was slowly coming around to your approach ... the wording "move within close range of an object" is distinct from the notion of changing from close to short. However this appears under the maneuvre "fly/drive" and as such could easily simply refer to "flying about" ... your interpretation implies a 6th 'range' which the rules do not dictate (as we agree, they show 5, with space-close = personal-engaged) ...
HOWEVER:
is there a 6th "personal" range concept I wonder (I haven't studied that section yet) ... perhaps melee hand-2-hand is distinct from "engaged range" for blasters? does one need to move INTO 'melee' even though already in 'engaged' range? [EotE p 205 suggests they're different modes of combat] ... I have found nothing of the sort thus far
now: EotE p208, states that personal-engaged is a sub-category of short... and we know that space combat is supposed to "work like personal", so 'close' would be a sub-category of 'short' ... and your 'space-engaged' is thus a sub-sub category !
there is a clear inconsistency in the FFG system - I wonder why the authors of the space chapter used 'close' rather than 'engaged'? ... is it an editing flaw? ... but what of the wording "move within"on balance
I find that yours is a justified "house rule", but maybe that's the trainee lawyer in me :) ... suspect you should have described it as such in your video ... though you have a strong play-based justification for it :)
What a guy! Thx.
Great video! I'm struggling to understand why Accelerate and Fly/drive are separate maneuvers. What happens to your vehicle if you use your Pilot maneuver to Accelerate instead of Fly/drive? Or do you always have to choose the Fly/drive maneuver if you have a Speed of 1 or more? Which would mean that you could only Accelerate (and Fly/drive) if you suffer strain. Or is Fly/drive only to cover distances and unnecessary once you're at close range/engaged?
And ... if you initially fire a missile or torpedo is the difficulty based on the size of your ship or the size of the missile/torpedo
(which I believe is 0)? How about when Guided is activated?
Accelerate/Decelerate is purely for Speed changes. Fly is for changing distance. Pilot is an action and is reserved for roll-worthy flying. The two Maneuvers are separate to allow the cost in Maneuvers to change range to be easily seen, and to differentiate between single-pilot, pilot with copilot or astromech, and crewed vessels.
At Speed 1 or more you must use Fly to go toward or away from something (change range). Increasing Speed requires Accelerate: 2 Maneuvers therefore if you change range as you do so. This costs an Action or Strain as per usual. If you aren't changing range or speed you do not need those maneuvers (not Maneuvering) but you may need a pilot Action to do whatever you are doing.
Firing a missile uses your Gunnery and Silhouette. When Guided takes over its text takes over: Gunnery equal to Guided and Silhouette 0.
Thank you, that's very helpful.
Glad to hear it, it was hastily typed while commuting~
No worries, my mistake was to think that you need Fly/drive every round just to keep your vessel "afloat".
Another fantastic video on FFG SW! Trying to watch as many of them as possible. I run two groups in EoTH (one online and one at the table). After many sessions neither of the groups have still had the pleasure of a real fierce exiting and cinematic combat encounter in space (the table group did actually do the Beginner Box final space combat - but that was after 5 hours of game play and way too late into the night...), so this video comes in very handy for preparing the next couple of sessions - I think the time is up!
And a question: did you ever treat the Fear concept in any of your many FFG SW videos? If so, which one?
Again, Thanks for adding extra fuel to this super duper hobby!
+Jacob Berg Fear gets mentioned more in the recaps than in the mechanics videos. I may do one though as I wrap up the series.
Enjoy your pending space combat!
It's good to have at least one PC that's gone with a pilot specialization; having ranks in the piloting and gunnery skills is good, but not enough.
Yes, having a real pilot in the group allows for some very cool stuff~
thanks for this. the group im in does space piloting to get to lock on and then roll to hit.
Glad to hear that you have found it to be useful~
Here's where I get lost on the game. I am at 13:45ish in the video. You just finished talking about how there is no facing in the game. Then your next point was about how the YT-1300 can fire in all directions and even get behind the TIE/LN and fire without reprisal because the TIE/LN can only fire forward. Those two points cannot be resolved. You either have facing, or you don't.
If you continue with the video, I suspect you will catch on to what is being described.
Ships have arcs for delivering and receiving fire. Movement does not put these toward or away from an opponent, therefore, there is no facing. Damage does occur in a hit location so to speak (a firing arc) and can only be sent out from a specific location (firing arc) so there are times when one ship can fire on another and take no return fire.
What determines this is one pilot having the advantage over the other. Generally speaking, the defender determines into which arc enemy fire comes. If the attacking pilot has Gained the Advantage ( a specific mechanic governs this ) then that pilot gets to determine the arc into which their fire goes. In this case, it would be wise for the YT pilot to use that advantage to fire into the read arc of his opponents, in other words 'get behind the TIEs' as they have no rear arc weapons.
Yeah, I am still watching. So, I guess a lot of the issue is how things are written vs. what the rules are. In rules discussions I find it best to completely ignore the narrative. While it is a huge part of the game and its enjoyment, it has nothing to do with the mechanics.
So back to the example, I don't see anything in the rules that would deny the TIE/LN the ability to return fire on their turn. If the YT-1300 gets "Gain the Advantage" the attack can clearly hit the TIE/LN in the aft. It does not even mean the YT-1300 is traveling in the same direction as the TIE/LN. They could be flying in opposite directions and get a great parting shot. Then when the TIE/LN gets to go, there is nothing within the rules that says the TIE/LN can't just turn around (no facing or inertia) and fire upon the YT-1300 whereas you are implying that it would lose the attack action against the YT-1300. What rule/talent/action are you using to deny the TIE/LN's attack other than "I'm behind it" added to Gain the Advantage? I don't think that the narrative should be that powerful.
All of the above can be narrated any way you want (and I agree that you should do so while playing) but have no affect on the mechanics other than adding black and blue die as required.
Yes, the distinction is the blend of narrative and structured play, as described. The mechanics determine what the penalty or bonuses might be, and what limits now apply to rolls or choices of maneuvers and actions. What each character and NPC does and how these choices are described, however, frames what can and cannot take place.
By "engaged" do you mean close range? I don't recall an engaged ranged band for ship combat. Your vids are awesome! Please keep it up! One of my favorite channels.
Close is like an analog for Engaged for Space Combat, but isn't spelled out as specifically. In the Speed chart you can note it costs maneuvers to shorten range to Close, then there is a maneuver cost to navigate within Close range such as for docking or dogfighting.
Glad you like the channel. It's good to be useful~
Thanks man. Your videos are incredibly helpful. I am going to point my players to them.
This is a pretty helpful video, this has helped a lot, thank you so much for taking the time to do these, and although I'm still struggling a bit with space combat, I'm slowly getting there... one thing I can't seem to find anywhere in the Edge of the Empire core rulebook (and it may be there and I just can't find it!) is whether or not Critical Hits destroy Minion craft outright or not. Would a wing of 2 or more Tie Fighters have one fighter destroyed each critical hit or do they roll for critical damage as usual?
I know minion characters get killed by Critical Hits (Page 390) and I've found the rules for "Vehicle and Minions" (Page 238), but they don't seem to address this clearly enough for my feeble mind to determine.
What are your thoughts?
You may find that in play that stsrfighters like TIEs can often be taken out with 1 shot by a reasonable gunner, so it won't come up that often. I enjoy using ship crits though and use them to shape description.
The rules don't frame ships as minion/rival/nemesis like characters, but it adds to the atmosphere if you run it that way.
@@Runeslinger ok thanks, I think that makes sense... so you're saying that in your campaigns you group TIE Fighters as minion groups (as described on Page 238 pf EotE) for the purposes of maneuvers, actions and attacks, but you still apply your Critical Hits as normal (ie roll up on the table and apply rather than it being an automatic kill)?
Especially later on in a campaign when the Obligation or Duty rating of a PC group warrants a lot of "Imperial Attention" I would indeed use the option to group similar vehicles as minion groups. That includes the option of taking one vehicle out on an activated critical or a Triumph used for that purpose.
Rather than let it just be stated that way, however, (I use my crit to take out a TIE) I prefer to check the crit table for inspiration of how that TIE was taken out by a crit.
@@Runeslinger ok gotcha! Thanks again for taking the time to help
@@TheNickman007 No problem!
Great video, very helpful.
but these background sounds... My headphones gave me too much immersion. I jumped a few times from thinking someone was behind me. I'm guessing it was a dog? I almost had a heard attack.
There are several dogs walking around. They like to help with the videos~
If you opt to take system strain to allow a second maneuver, could you take it after your action? If you were in an A-Wing, and fighting a slower ship, could you move into range, attack, then move out of range, keeping your opponent from attacking you?
+Matthew Burdick In a single-pilot craft, you can use a Maneuver to move into range, use your Action to attack, then take a second Maneuver at the cost of 2 System Strain *and* 2 Pilot Strain to move out of range. The slower ship might not be able to change the range enough on its turn (even by using 2 Maneuvers itself) to Attack on its Turn.
An astromech droid in a ship socket that is capable of taking Pilot Only Maneuvers could prevent the pilot from taking Strain if asked to perform the second Fly/Drive Maneuver.
I've found space combat to not be that great in the campaign I run, the gunners can't do much other than shoot, unless you're in a 5+ ship (which they're not). Are we missing something?
That's hard to say without details. Gunners in turrets tend to be isolated from other ship conttols, but regardless of where a person is on a ship, they still only have a single Action per Turn. For Maneuvers, likewise, without Strain they have one and can use it to Aim. Each function in a small ship benefits from having a dedicated operator to handle it. From a certain point of view, Gunnery has more variety and fun potential than Astrogation~
Are all combat checks from ships done with the gunnery skill? or are there specific ship weapons that could categorize under ranged: Light/Heavy?
Ship scale and vehicle-mounted weapons are via Gunnery, yes~
Hi!
We just started to play in this system recently. My party has a HT-2200 as their first ship (Shiluette 5, max speed 2). Most of the manevers are off limit because of the size and speed limits of the ship, although I have a question:
With shiluette 5 they can have only 1 maneuver, and can't take strain to have another. This way if they want to accelerate they can't use the fly action in the same round. During a chase how would you narrate this? They are accelerating, but at the same time the target gets a range band away...?
I hope that you are having fun with the system. Your question is a good one. To answer it, we need to take a look at the text for those Maneuvers. Fly/Drive is not one that needs to be performed by the pilot on every turn. It is assumed that the pilot (and everyone else, actually) can get the ship in motion and keep it in motion under normal circumstances. Fly/Drive comes in when the ship is going to be changing its relationship in space with another object or ship in a way that matters (docking, closing to engage, breaking engagement, etc). The key point is that the focus of the pilot is on that change of position (closer/farther) and nothing else. As a result, there are other Maneuvers and each has a different focus.
Relevant to your question is the Accelerate/Decelerate Maneuver. With a top speed of 2 any chases will likely not go in the crew's favor regardless of if they are doing the chasing or not. This Maneuver dictates how quickly the ship can change speed, and by default, how quickly a ship can get into or out of a particular range band. The HT-2200 you describe will only be able to increase Speed by 1. To reach its top speed of 2 from 0 will take two full rounds and the pilot(s) will be arranging that with a lot of their attention. Further, it takes 2 Maneuvers to close or open a Range Band, so doing that will always take that ship 2 rounds. Faster ships will be able use 2 Maneuvers to increase their speed by 2 per Round and if they have a higher top speed they will then be able reach speeds that let them go farther (more range bands) with 2 Maneuvers. More maneuverable ships will be able to put more Maneuvers to that task in a single Round.
For the Narration of the scene, we have a ship that feels very heavy, that takes a lot of attention to handle. It likely has very wide turns, its engines take time cycling up with loud sounds and perhaps shipwide vibrations as they build up the necessary force to affect the ship's direction and speed. A ship of the same speed or slower will be in the same situation and both crews will be scrambling to try to get their hulking mass of a ship to respond first. Smaller and faster ships will be easily able to pull away or catch up and the effect should feel like the HT-2200 is standing still.
We get a sense of this in watching the Falcon fly rings around Star Destroyers and in watching TIE fighters fly rings around the Falcon.
So, to get back to the accelerate/decelerate Maneuver, the pilot is still flying the ship. It doesn't mean you have to imagine a straight line of travel. The opponent, however, is very likely smaller and more nimble, so with each Round, they can - if they want - put 2 Maneuvers into Accelerate or Punch It to up their Speed to change how many Range Bands they can cross in each Turn (pulling away from the HT-2200 simply because they are going faster) or they could use Fly twice in a Round to buy a change of Range and therefore pull away by virtue of turns and changes of course which the less agile HT-2200 simply cannot match.
I hope this helps. If It doesn't, let me know and I will try to get into the narration side of it in a different way.
@@Runeslinger thank you for the detailed answer.
Actually I'm using the adventure from the EotE GM kit. We ended the last game session very close to the chase scene where they have to chase a cloud car.
The party has an ace pilot character (who is yet to be recruited to the rebellion) so he can boost to speed 3 if it's neccessary, but on the planet there is huge storms and rocky canyons so it's not advised to run really high speed. I know they are the underdog in this situation. The cloud car has a shiluette of 2 and probably will fly speed 3 in the storm. The party has shiluette 5 and speed 2. The pilot is a better starship pilot than the droid in the cloud car so suprisingly it will be quite tense (I ran a few tests).
I'm just trying to wrap my mind about the system.
In EotE corebook I've read that in chase mode participants roll opposed checks and if the chaser wins he closes by 1 range band, regardless of the speed of the ship. However if tha target wins and it's a faster ship it opens by 2 range bands.
So what if my players decide to go all in and the pilot boosts the ship to speed 3 during the chase (so if they fail an opposed chek the target is only 1 range away instead of 2). Should I narrate this like the distance is unchanged during the turn when they accelerate? Should the cloud car get away with 1 range band? Or...?
Also in a chase we should roll 1 opposed Piloting check in the pilot character's turn, and a second one in the droid's turn right?
@@Parduckoponya2 If you decide to run it as a chase (and I think that is a good idea) then the situation will be handled in Narrative time rather than Structured time and so description is one of the main goals.
The environment, the skill of the two pilots, and the characteristics of the two machines in that particular context should all matter and factor into the description generated by you and the players. The specifics of range do not need to be gone into much detail other than "gaining on" or "losing". The clouds, storm effects, terrain, and other obstacles can take greater emphasis on what the pilots are struggling against.
You certainly can have both the PCs and the NPC roll and make sure that everyone involved in the roll is contributing to the description if possible~
@@Runeslinger thank you. I have 2 players so 1 pilot, 1 co-pilot and 2 gunner will be the most possible setup for the PC-s. This way if they get in close range the two gunner has more chance to shoot down the droid than 1 would have. 😊
Thanks for answering this. I've had the same question. Basically I've gathered that speed can mean flying around in circles at a certain velocity. Whereas the range bands are actually quite large in space.
+Runeslinger
Sir: slightly off topic here: do you have recommendations/preferences for online toolsets? Roll20 on its own? Roll20 within 'hangout'? .. the "pro" Roll20 DieRoller API scripts or the Hangout roller? etc ...
though I am more likely to run an asynchronous game (cf play-by-mail) using a closed facebook page (PMs for whispers, image & file posts for char sheets etc) and cut-paste die rolls from game2.ca/eote/ or the like
I use a variety of formats (e-mail, forum, facebook group, etc). For live games online, Hangouts alone is enough for me. All I personally look for is stable group video chat. I appreciated the ability for Hangouts to incorporate dice rollers, but the pending loss of these features does not affect how I game online. As a result, I have nothing that I would recommend to anyone~
What has been your take on the Genesys vehicle combat rules and adapting them to Star Wars?
I don't have a take. I haven't paid much attention to Genesys as there is still a lot I want to do with the system as presented in FFG/Edge Star Wars. I haven't encountered a shortcoming in the vehicular/space combat rules in Star Wars, so I haven't felt compelled to make or seek solutions.
Do you believe that the grneric rules are substantively different or add something of value, or do you just wonder if they do?
@@Runeslinger so im running tests on the vehicle system and will run an encounter tomorrow night to see how it flows. I am Star Wars rpg and dont really intend on running Genesys at all but looking to see what can be used as revised set of rules for star wars. Besides Vehicle combat they seem to have some added social encounter rules as well....so looking into that next.
@@carlosrivera9047 Are you dissatisfied with the vehicle rules in Star Wars, or just curious?
@@Runeslinger It's the ONLY part of the system that never really did it for me or my players. It didnt bring the excitement of the cinematic speed of the vehicles since range bands matter very little and it's mostly about silouettes. This revised rules are more in line with personal combat and also introduces the "forced movement" mechanic which allows the vehicle to constantly be in motion thru the bands and allowing target difficulties to be both range band and silouette inclusive. Also, allows for vehicles and personal combat to take place simultaneously. Lastly, it gives the pilot alot more to do with the piloting skill.
@@carlosrivera9047 Sounds good~
Move from close to engaged? Close is engaged in ship combat, isn`t it? But I liked the video!
+GameOfThomas This idea is discussed in the video and the annotation for that section.
Combat runs the same as on the ground. Close is the analog for Engaged for space combat, and combat works fine that way, but there is a Maneuver cost for operating within Close range of something. Respecting that gives us a dog fighting condition that gives added distinction to Gain the Advantage. This led us to speak of Engaging.
Does exist a tab or excel file with all the datas of any ships and weapons?
Thank you.
+DarthBalrogTV There probably is one, but I don't use any.
So if you have a crew of four on the freighter, does each person in the crew get an action, or does it all fall under one action as the the ship and the crew are a single entity?
+Nano Paladin In some regards, that will depend on the ship, sometimes on the scene. In the group I am in, our crew has access to a pilot, copilot, two gunners, astrogator/sensor operator, medic, and technician. The pilot and gunners tend to take actions every turn. Everyone uses Maneuvers turn to turn during a combat or escape, and depending on the scene take Actions as well. Each have their own roles to fulfill during the Turn.
You may see the pilot use a Maneuver to Accelerate, then use her action to Gain the Advantage. Meanwhile the copilot is Angling the Deflector Shields for his Maneuver, and Assisting the Sensor Operator for his Action. The Sensor Operator is... etc. What you will not see is 4 characters each with a piloting action in a single turn, or all 4 characters firing the same gun.
+Runeslinger Ah ok, thanks much for the swift reply.
i still don't get it, how many maneuvers do i get? what is handling
?
Help me answer you:
Have you playef the game, yet? Have you read the game, yet? Do you have access to one of the core books?
@@Runeslinger sorry, i reread the books and asked a friend i get it now
Excellent!
Link to " A subsequent video will deal with large encounters and capital ships, and a later one will demonstrate a combat scene.."????
I have been busy~
Runeslinger understood in my campaign we are starting to get into space, and I'm just trying to figure out what exactly determines if a ship is on fore, starboard, etc.
+Jacesythrilx It is very cool, actually! The defender chooses where the incoming fire goes *unless* the attacker has successfully "gained the advantage".
With small, nimble ships or equivalent sized ships this is easy for the group to narrate.
With larger ships vs small ones you need to remember point defenses, fighter screens, ECM and so on to set up why the fighters might have trouble just strafing what they want, but the scale difference can be so vast that a ship is like terrain. Be prepared to play it by ear once the fighters close, if you like.
I'm a little confused, so even if two ships are at close range, they cannot fire at each other unless the pilot spends a maneuver to 'engage' with the ship? Is that RAW?
Thanks for asking. Close range in space is still significant, but the idea presented here is to spend a maneuver to 'interact' with a ship or object in Close range. We can see this for docking, for example.
For representing the acquisition of the right angle of attack and attitude for weapons orientation in space, the cost of a maneuver makes good sense.
As noted in the video and its annotations, the RAW have the cost on page 245, but no explicit requirement to use it for engagement. Feel free to ignore the idea. We find it adds to the initial round of combat, however.
+Runeslinger +Ebakthecat I'd like to toss my interpretations out on this.
You would need to maneuver in order to use forward firing guns, but something like the YT1300 would not need to do such a maneuver, since it has full 360degree firing arcs. At least, that is how our group runs it. I hope that's not in any contradiction to the rules!
That is a good ruling, I think. The perk of turrets is that no matter what arc the enemy chooses to fire from when they have 'gained the advantage' you can return fire. To make this ruling, you make ships with turrets more immediately dangerous (it frees 1 maneuver) which could add to the atmosphere of a battle.
On the other side, maneuvering could still be needed to keep specific guns in arc (dorsal vs ventral, or forward vs rearward turrets), and disengagement is still something to consider~
In the future, please give a "table of contents" because the rambling and referencing of other games killed me. Holy crap, man. You're too intelligent for anyone's good. Way too much freaking info, man. You know your stuff, but, dang.
do you run a play by post? if so i will join
+Dominick Tucker We are not looking for players at this time. There are many communities on G+ for connecting with other players, though. Good luck!