Inside a Dezac pyramid ioniser.
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- Опубліковано 1 вер 2015
- This is a look inside a fairly common Dezac ioniser / negative ion generator.
It's quite a smart unit, and has a fairly standard multiplier circuit optimised for European 220-240V operation.
Notable things are the horrible little neon lamp under a blue coloured tip. A blue indicator would have been quite cool looking, especially for something that was made before blue LEDs existed. It always looks a bit twee when an orange indicator is put behind a green or blue filter, since the narrow wavelength of the neon light always just ends up looking out of place.
The resistor for the neon is super-generously sized. That's possibly because they noted that the Mountain Breeze ionisers had issues with their neon indicator current limiting resistors burning up.
The circuit is a very standard 22 cap/diode multiplier with the usual 10nF 630V capacitors, 1N4007 rectifier diodes and two 10 megohm resistors on the output.
While trying to open the unit I mistakenly put the mains flex into the strain relief section in the middle of the case. Looking at the flex it is not kinked in a manner that suggests it has been round that loop. Probably because in hindsight they realised that the adjacent part of the circuit board was live at several thousand volts above the insulation rating of the cable.
The case appears to be heat staked or at least forcibly clipped together. The two parts had to be destructively prized apart.
Presumably the best place for an ioniser would be suspended from a lighting rose, needles down... Shame they don't seem to make any like that, as they're very useful contraptions!
They did make suspended ones, and the very first ionisers were styled as chandeliers.
This looks like something you'd find in the Church of Scientology.
The church of the illuminati.
I have missed our CliveCAD lessons, theyre fun, informative and interesting :) thank you fo e the upload :D
Many thanks for the easy too follow understanding of the ioniser
9 years later I came back to this video to add my take on it, I've owned one of these exact units for a few months now and have noticed some slight issues with it, but fortunately most of them can be easily sorted. The first, is that I'm sure the plastic case is slightly conductive, probably due to it being black, as if dust particles fall between the needles and case it'll completely stop the output of the unit, resulting in having to blow the dust away. The other thing, is that due to the size of the holes in the case, dust does get stuck in them very regularly, so I took mine apart and drilled them out to 4mm, this seems to have helped. I then also moved the needles so that they stick out of the front by about 3mm rather than being flush, this has greatly improved the units output.
They do attract a film onto their surface over time. Having the needles standing proud of the unit is much better, albeit not "safety compliant".
Hey Bigclive, what are ionisers used for?
Thanks
Not really relevant to this video but I love your stuff on youtube, just kinda random fun bits you take the time to explain, ive been doing the same thing my whole life, keep it up. we are watching :-)
That is a lot of capacitors. When I get a new air ionizer, I'm taking my current one apart for the caps.
OMG I have one of those !!!!! Its still working in this room near me, had it for YEARRRRS !!
Any good?
@@kaashee yes, i have it sat near me right now, ionising away lol. its sat on a salvaged light guide screen from an old lcd monitor :)
Looks like the Luxor hotel in Las Vegas lol, neat little thing for how Small it is
I used to have this exact model of ioniser, orange light under blue case and all.
It must have been in production since at least 1996
I bought one in 1992, haven't used it for years, since I was scared by the possible health effects of the ozone (O3) it also produces. . Might use it again, if I find out the ozone level is safe. .The diode goes to the neutral instead of live, in the rare case all the diodes go short circuit. .I Thought it was a good design when I opened it up (like most stuff), 20 years ago.
I've had the exact model for years - always on somewhere in the house. Have to be careful where you put it as it pulls the crap out the air and leaves a muck silhouette on whatever it's sat on.
Hi just writing could you open a digital key ring . I have one and want to use it for something other than what it was intended
Okay, what would be the point of negativly charging the dust in your air????
+Kyogre Cubing | ikyogre1 6:28
" the air is cleaner" - unlike the walls and floors!
and grounded electronics like computers and fridges
is there a opposite version of something like this, to remove dust from a area?
I wish there was, but ionisation specialises in collecting dust. Although I do have an interesting ioniser to tear down that at least provides a slight incentive to the dust to gather on its paper.
I'm starting to notice a pattern in teardowns, but I may be forgetting some exceptions. All ionisers and wall receptacle testers use neon indicators. Practically everything else use LEDs for indicators.
Can you tell what the difference is? Why don't they use LEDs? I tried to read about neon indicator bulbs, but I found no reason to not just use LEDs.
Because you can run a neon straight across the mains with a quarter watt current limiting resistor, it'll last for a million years, and you can pick a resistance that'll operate fine at both 110 and 240V. Plus, they have uses beyond indicators. You'll find them in use in lots of mains power gear, particularly those translucent coloured plastic 250VAC rated rocker switches.
So the difference is simplicity and longevity.
What changes would have to be made for 120 volt operation?
Robert Gibbons More diode/capacitor stages.
Is it possible for you to show internals of "NaturAir Pro" ionizer? That would be super great!
Yeah that would be awesome or even NaturAir Titan
Would this type of ionizer produce significant amounts of Ozone?
I used to have one of them. XD Been years since I last saw one. :3
Excuse can you just tell me if this Ioniser makes a noise or not?
With a net current flowing at the needle, there must be an imbalance in current between line and neutral. Is this enough to drip a GFI?
+Matthew Obley It's tiny. Literally microamps.
I was quite taken with the multiplier at the National Museum of Scotland the other day.. It would make a great tear down video for you to do.....
+Siskin's Bits and Bobs www.nms.ac.uk/explore/collections-stories/science-and-technology/cockcroft-walton-generator/
Walked passed that so many times and always assumed it was a transformer type thing. So it's a prototype ioniser then.
Pointy stuff was big in the 90's from what I've seen
Eh, I tend to think of iMacs and generally rounded and smooth computing, typical of the hopeful 90’s space-age-future mentality. That was more novelty stuff.
I thought that Punks were earlier than that?
Clive this unit has only 20 capacitors, not the 22 you mentioned and revealed inside the MountainBreeze, how does that make it different? I also wonder how these things were different in the States with 110 V AC a compared to the 220-230 regions on earth?
I've only opened one American ioniser and it had a small step up transformer to keep the multiplier short.
i wonder what a cation generator would do. maybe you could hide one in a hallway and build up potential on people as they walk by and cause them to get a static shocks on everything
As always bigclivedotcom is interesting and very informative. Very professional and well presented.
Are you back home now?
What if a balanced introduction of both positive and negative ions were generated in a looped setting was tried. Perhaps the air would smell different?
There are units that produce both positive and negative ions in the vicinity of each other. But I'm inclined to think that their real purpose is to create trace level ozone due to the slight corona discharge from the adjacent emitters.
@@bigclivedotcom I'm sure you've experienced that sensation of electrical buildup in the atmosphere that very much makes your hair stand... perhaps multiple of these generators could have a similar or adverse effect in static buildup. Perhaps a good place for use would be static sensitive environments for use with delicate components. I can only imagine the effects it could have.
Does this *actually* work? Even if the negatively charged dust is attracted to the floor, does it really have any noticeable effect that isn't negligible?
+Sample Text When you run an ioniser in a room the surrounding surfaces and walls develop a thick layer of black precipitate from the air. Stuff so fine that it would probably pass through a vacuum cleaner, but very capable of getting deep into your lungs. So I would say that ionisers do have a definite air cleaning effect.
bigclivedotcom OK, thanks for that. I haven't really looked into them before, so I was a bit sceptical. That cleared things up!
+Sample Text A lot of the sales material associated with ionisers is very reminiscent of that used to sell quack products. There's also a tendency for things that are not ionisers to be sold as ionisers. Like ozone generators.
+bigclivedotcom Yea, I think that's what I was associating this with, before you replied to my original comment.
+bigclivedotcom Yep, but when we used one that black precipitate was landing on a gloss painted windowsill, which you would have thought would be easy to wipe the dust up from, but in fact it left a right mess and we stopped using the ioniser.
Hi Clive
the diodes are in the wrong direction, just straight up the ladder is right
I have this ioniser, my ex gave it to me she didn't seem to think it did anything.. Pretty expensive at the time about 60 pounds.. But looking online, there only seems to be one avaliable at 9924.99 on ebay!
+Dana Adalaide They've obviously run out and put the price up as a placemarker. Testing an ioniser to see if it works is easy. Place it on an ordinary white piece of paper for a few days. If it's working, then when lifted up it will leave a white shape where the ioniser was, surrounded by a darker area where all the attracted dust stuck to it.
In 2023 what is the best negative ion generator you can buy for a decent price?
A custom built one.
Nice video :) Thumbs up :D Alex
I made my own ioniser years and years ago. A big beefy one, using a drain pipe, with capacitors inside. I just went off looking for the web site that gave me the inspiration. And guess what... it's was on Big Clives web site!
The problem I have with ionisers, is the mess they make. I had one of those pyramid ones, and left it in the corner of my bedroom. I had redecorate the room, due to all the black stuff all over the walls.
+Stuart Johnson They do make a real mess of the walls. But you have to ask yourself... Is it better on the walls or being breathed in.
+bigclivedotcom i was just brain storming.. a possible solution to the dirty wall issue. Couldn't you make something like a large 1inch steel pipe (or iron maybe or something super conductive) and solder a wire to this pipe and connect it to a the ground via a electrical outlet? Sorta of a big grounded source for this residue to stick to thus making cleaning easier? also how hard is it to clean this mess these ionizers make? perhaps even connect a fan to your ionizer to "aim" it across the room to the pipe... God am I sounding dumb now? lol anyways thoughts? The only issue I see with this thought is the ions attacking to the wall instead of the pipe because they are both grounded. So I guess the real question here is would the ions pass a less conductive grounded material IE walls for a super conductive grounded material a short distance further away
+MegaPrik There is a version which has a preferential ground created by using a small positive multiplier to create a stronger attraction than grounded surfaces and attract dust to a specific mat.
+bigclivedotcom +MegaPrik it would make a neat project to find out if you can make the perfect ioniser.
Well Im gonna give my idea a try. maybe try using a positive multiplier like clive stated. but exactly how hard is this mess to clean? we talking like permanent marker on the wall hard or like wiping the wall with a damp rag hard? the reason I ask is Im thinking if I can get the ions to carry the stuff to a specific source Im going to turn that source into a self cleaning one,
as for building the ionizer I waiting for the parts from eBay to arrive. if you like I can keep you updated Stuart Via messages on my findings and results.
is there such a thing as a blue neon ? I thought neon emitted red light? Didn't they use mercury to get blue ?+Markus Bates - I'm still hunting the elusive yet much discussed £10 fluke as well as the cheap Oscilloscope Dave Jones (EEVblog) always used to talk about. Same with variacs.Guess the UK generally lost the idea of fixing things to be a worthwhile hobby and as such the supply of surplus or used kit is limited.
looks like kinda used the same design as 1984 Bandai Black Pyramid Pair Match Electronic Game. they had that on startrek tng btw. www.handheldmuseum.com/Bandai/PairMatch.htm
That sill makes for an interesting ballpark calculation. Let's be conservative and say 1 microamp difference between current on hot an neutral.
10^-6 amps. = 10^-6 Columbs / Second
(10^-6 Columbs / second) * (10^19 electrons/columb)
= 10^13 electrons per second.
That's 100 trillion electrons per second.
What is the difference between earth, neutral and ground?
+Matt Valcarcel Earth is the electrical potential of the floor you are standing on. Ground is the third pin in a three-pin plug (or the top and bottom pins in a German Schuko plug), which is generally connected to earth in some way. The important thing is that ground is not usually part of the circuit, it merely exists to pull the potential of a metal casing down to the earth potential so you don't get a (potentially lethal) zap when touching it. Also, so that the RCD shuts off the circuit should the casing ever go live (bad insulation happens).
Confusingly, in DC circuits, ground is the negative terminal and actual part of the circuit.
"Neutral" is the name for the AC input pin where no potential change is happening. It is however a normal part of the circuit. It usually has the same potential as earth, but you can't rely on that. In many plug systems, as a circuit designer you have know way of knowing, which input pin is going to be which, so you have to design your circuits to work either way.
+nullplan01 that was very informative, thanks so much
"Ground is the third pin in a three-pin plug"- you mean the earth pin? :-)
Can someone explain the point of this thing ?
+CorruptedPixl_ It puts an electrostatic charge in the air that causes dust and other contaminants to precipitate out to surrounding surfaces. Makes a bit of a mess in its vicinity, but takes out sub-micron particulate from the air silently.
+bigclivedotcom So it's real then? Not a scam like the foot bath thing?
+TheBetterGame Although the original ionisers were sold in a style that resembled quackery they do have a genuine effect. The best way to prove their effectiveness is to place one on a clean piece of white paper and leave it running for a while. The unit will attract dust in a manner that creates a visible outline of the unit on the paper after just a day or so.
ok
+bigclivedotcom so I could use it around my pc, so ioniser would atrack dust away from it?
"Use the force clive"
Neon glows red - You'd want Xenon or Argon for this purpose.
Neon can mean any light with a noble gas inside. I am certain he knows that neon gas glows red.
Yeah he's mentioned this incorrect colloquialism before.
I notice that ionizers can leave a room smelling like a CRT TV screen when you switch it off.
+KasHCubeD That sounds more like an ozone generator than an ioniser. Sometimes they are wrongly labelled as ionisers.
bigclivedotcom Ah. Come to think of it; my one had a UV lamp inside it. I bought it off ebuyer in their clearence sale many many years ago.
+bigclivedotcom Ionizers make ozone as a byproduct. They're fine to run when you're not home, but not the greatest to be breathing.
+playaspec A traditional needle ioniser creates virtually no ozone. The actual ozone generators that masquerade as ionisers (but aren't) are a real issue in that respect.
+Jimmy Loves Harley Ozone is a very powerful oxidiser, and burns lungs.
Funny how they seam to have used actual needles like people who work with tissue and cloth would use (not sure what they are called in english, but i believe pins?!)
+muh1h1 Pins or sewing needles
I still think I prefer the Mountain breeze ioniser.
I'm... not sure why you would ever have an ioniser in a standard household. They would've been quite useful 15-20 years ago if you had a darkroom, but i really can't see any domestic use otherwise.
Them needles hurt when they're powered up... :S
Clive why don't you buy proper pries and shims instead of the brute force method you seem to nick your knuckles with all the time? XD
or use photons method .. a hammer lol
See? No pharaoh or grain inside this one either. Pyramids were stargates.
bigclivedotcom you kinda misspelled "ionizer" it is not spelled ioniser
UK spelling. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_ioniser
@Floyd1504 And language is fluid/evolves for a reason.
Boohoo Canadians 'ruined' French too
it took me a few Videos now to get that you say nano Farad and not fart...
OMG. That unit can't have a CE marking when it is built like that. No safety insulation from the net!!!
The resistors on the output are the safety feature. If you touched the pins the voltage would immediately fall and the leakage current would be low.
What the hell is an ionizer!?
It puts and electrostatic charge into the air to encourage airborne dust to settle out.
Didn't really expect you to answer, really. The ladder structure was used in early particle accelerators so I guess it ionizes particles then.
Have you never sliced your hand open, jamming screwdrivers into things like that? That's why I stopped doing it! They can be sharp, and you can't control your hand well when you're pushing as hard as you can.
If it were me I'd smash stuff with a hammer, but I know you like to put your pound shop treasures back together again.
+greenaum yep
I have no idea why these things are so expensive. There is nothing in them pretty much. Nothing that would warrant hundred bucks or anywhere near that. 20€ would still probably be a 300% profit for them.
+Atrax R proper ionisers are quite specialised. It's quite a small market.
I seem to remember them being sold for less than 20 quid. Maybe a bit more for the "designer" ones which look posh being sold in those weird mail order catalogues.
gimmicky gadgets ..... yet people still buy them lol
Oh boy! Carcinogens in a cute box. Ridiculous what people believe.
another scam.
Ionisers do actually have a cleaning effect on the air by charging it and causing airborne contaminants to dissipate out to surfaces. They make a real mess in doing so.
hey this was not a very good video.. didn't really understand a whole lot about this ionizer and it kinda seemed like you expected us to know as much about them as you do.. no test, no explanation of it's purpose... thumbs down. please make a longer and more describing video next time pease.
+aprilialover125 Try my website for a more detailed explanation. www.bigclive.com/ioniser.htm