If you want to figure out your odds of beating an enemy unit or seeing how much damage your favourite model can endure, try the Adept Roll app: Website adeptroll.com/ Google Play play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.adept_roll iOS apps.apple.com/gb/app/adept-roll-mathhammer-app/id1480073816
I always imagined things like the predator doing a sort of battleship roll, pivoting on the spot to give all the guns a clear shot on a target. Same with an infantry unit taking wounds on models out of sight. They're scrambling around, taking cover, bracing their weapons, realoding, dodging.
I always imagine a model's place on the board as its approximate position in the actual battle - things are always moving around - the Dark Eldar raider in the first example moves out a little, shoots its weapons, returns to its position.
I always imagined the models out of vision taking damage as those models filling in the formation when it's broken ahead of them. makes more sense in age of sigmar than in 40k though!
I think those examples make sense too. As long as the rules make a kind of sense and facilitate the story you're trying to tell with your guys I think they've done their job.
@@pandoragoldspan7012 like you say, maybe that makes more sense in AoS. In 40K, where models are typically trying to make use of cover it makes absolutely 0 sense. Being able to target models that are not visible with direct fire guns is one of the stupidest rules in the entire game, and doesn't help in terms of necessitating very dense terrain set-ups as a unit must be completely obscured to avoid being picked up entirely.
My family house rules that objects not physically part of the model’s normal anatomy (such as a sword being pointed forwards at the enemy) does not count for line of sight either way.
We don’t count wings. Realistically they would be folded up behind the bearer and are only outstretched as such for the sake of making the model look cool.
@@PatrixBestIt's worse because each player has their own interpretation of the rules one person will have a wounded character and state they can't be hit unless they have precision where in another scene the same scenario occurs and the person saves on their wounded character
and the first person would be correct. Leader rule: Each time an attack sucessfully wounds an Attached unit, that attack cannot be allocated to a Character model in that unit, even if that Character model has lost one or more wounds
I love these videos, which really helps me, a new player, to fully understand the rules. Your comprehensive skills knows no bounds it seems Sir Carmian
@@ChristianVonCarmian40kVtuberI would love to see more rules explanation vids from you because this one was great and informative. Things like Pile in / consolidate, stacking damage reduction order of operations…. Not fast rolling feel no pain rolls. I could go for a whole series of these from you
The LOS system is one of those things where I feel like 40k just sticks with worse versions of rules for tradition's sake. There are other games that use eg volumetric line of sight with height values and it just undercuts all of that stuff, as well as enabling you to model without worrying that your monster's dynamic pose will get them killed
Na easy to imagine how true line of sight works for me, is that every army in 40k has some sort of "radar scan." Every unit knows ROUGHLY where everything else is at. As soon as anything breaks cover at all, your competent units are able to roughly determine where that thing is at and fire without wasting precious ammo. All ammo can easily go through random cinder blocks or other loose terrain, but because physics everything slows and this has less stopping power (resulting in the -1ap for cover)
As a new player, I am okay with the 'unrealistic' aspects of shooting, but the rules in 10th just don't seem to be written in an airtight way so that you can always logic out what the correct result is. It has been many years since I played any game with as many case by case errata.
Mechanically it does seem odd, but thinking cinematically of whats happening is the tank is driving up, shooting and pulling back, the space marine is peeking out taking his shots and moving back. etc etc etc.
Thanks for the explanation! I feel like this finally helped me click into place the bits that I didn't quite understand for the shooting phase. Love your explanation videos!
Regarding models within a unit dying, yet not affecting subsequent shots from the same unit, I always refer to it as taking a "snapshot" of the unit at the time you declared your attacks, and using the properties the attacks would have at that time. I think it comes up the most when I fire Blast weapons after a non-blast weapon and need to remind myself I get the full attack bonus for the starting model count
True line of sight is the worst rule in the entirety of 10th edition, completely takes me out of the game whenever someone shoots my lord of changes wing tip with the backside door of one of their tanks or anything else like that.
the wings only matter when determining if a model is in area terrain (and can be shot) or totally behind it (and can't be shot). If the wing is sticking out at the side - they can still be shot if you can see that part of the wing
Italians do prefer pasta dishes. And I agree, I wish Line of Sight was base to base. It would mean that you don't need to worry about tactically folding in wings/tails, etc.
Oh man and this video didn't even talk about the confusion around how LoS is determined when including Ruins. Like one model in a unit barely touching a ruin makes them all eligible to be shot, but none of them can shoot back.
This rule alone has made me facepalm so much. Makes any chunky vehicles god awful in heavy ruin maps if they are too fat and can't fit wholy inside the ruin floor plan
The example of shooting magnus because his wings reach past a building isn't correct for terrain classified as ruins, as of the 1.5 rules commentary. It is correct for terrain classified as something else.
this video explains the situation in this video and when the rules commentary exception is applied: ua-cam.com/video/jZsScSBjsMU/v-deo.htmlsi=9dpm-qiFdsWy_bYo
9:20 I'm in a pod of new wargamers and I sent this to a friend to explain why we could still kill his models behind a building after he nearly rage quit against me when I explained it in game. He would have quit but some other nearby gamers came over and vindicated me lol. I did tell him we could just disregard that but "Rules are rules" he said. It does feel bad when a squad of 10 gets wiped because half of ONE guy was visible. I'd wonder how good/bad it would feel to only be able to kill models visible to your unit, vs a unit visible to your unit. Maybe some additional weapon profiles to separate "explosive" weapons from "precision" fire so some weapons CAN hurt models not fully visible but others can't? So like a model that your UNIT is eligible to shoot, but a particular model might not be fully visible to any other specific relevant model
7th edition had the "only kill models you can see". It was ok but the argument was, if the plasma gunner can only see one model, how can he kill 2 models - just because the other killed model was visible to another model in the plasma gunner squad
12:45 so I thought that you roll out all your attacks since they happen simultaneously. Then in the next step hand the bucket of dice over too your opponent who then chooses what attack too resolve one at a time specifically for damage mitigation. So the D3 weapon on the dudie with 1W remaining, and then when dudie dies, dudius who has 3W remaining starts rolling out D1 weapon shots untill 1W remains and start rolling D3 weapons agian becuase you are the controlling player allocating wounds.
because each weapon profile is resolved as a group, the attacking player with choose a profile to resolve, like D1 boltguns. Then saves are made. Then the attacker picks another profile like D3 weapons and saves are made on them
Wrong: [Ruines and visibility] …For the purpose of visibility into or through a Ruin, visibility to and from such a model that overhangs its base is determined only by its base and parts of that model that do not overhang its base. So no hitting the edge of a wing anymore.
In my example in the video the wing is in the alleyway, not in a ruin or overhanging a ruin. All of the model was behind the ruin apart from the wing which was not in the ruin but was visible without drawing line of sight into or through the ruin. It can still be shot
@@ChristianVonCarmian40kVtuber Per the section in Terrain Features, does the ruin in any way interact with the model when determining visibility (aka is it the cause for any part of it to not be fully visible when looking from behind (aka the furthest point away) of the attcking model? Yes? Well congratulations, by rules and definitions of basic the english language you are shooting through (cover of) ruins to try and hit the nipple-horn-chicken boy.
I probably played to long already. That stuff was confusing 15 years ago, when we had fun stuff: like split fire didn’t really exist. So you had moments where you only shot a single weapon, even though the rest of the unit had visible targets. I guess you planned to make viewers more and more “upset” while watching, for me I just thought: yeah, thats actually the most reasonable approach to this problem. Having seen many interesting solutions in different tapletop systems, you quickly learn that “realistic shooting” is the worst, complicated and annoying option (shooting already can last quite long, imagine you need to draw line of sight per model, roll everything separately and do it with a community that abuses every rule they can find for competitive)
Just got boxes of Seraphim/ Zepharim, Retributors and a Battle Sister/ Dominion/ Celestian squad (I still believe in their return); what's the best way to mix and match parts at the minute? Was goign to go Melta/ bolters on the retributors, but there are options in the codex that aren't in the Battle Sisters box but are in the Seraphim box.
melta/flamer may be better. I know there are only two heavy flamers unless you convert them with melta barrels from the dominion box. I like all meltas on the sisters (including seraphim inferno pistol) or all flamers (including seraphim hand flamer). At the moment hand flamers are the best for seraphim but having one with hand flamer, one with inferno pistol has worked well enough for me
The only thing i am still confused about is ruins footprints. At the very least on TTS, ruins have fully rectangular footprints but only half of it is actually walled. My friend insists that if 2 units, who can see each other, are each wholly outside that ruin footpring which is between them, they cannot shoot each other. This conflicts with true LOS but the rules for ruins state otherwise? Help???
the wings only matter when determining if a model is in area terrain (and can be shot) or totally behind it (and can't be shot). If the wing is sticking out at the side - they can still be shot if you can see that part of the wing
With all attacks happening at the same time within a unit, how does Morvenn Vahl's Righteous Repugnance interact with that? The ability specifies that you gain a miracle die when *this model* destroys a unit.
you would have to try and plan it so that between the weapons of the paragon warsuit, Vahl is the one to destroy an enemy unit. I know it is annoying. I have to hope that there is a weak enemy that Vahl can finish off with her attacks before any Paragon attacks are resolved
So, how does that affect specific models in attached units that need to get kills? For instance, in crusade one of my secondaries is for my Warlord model to get kills, if his attached unit attacks and destroys the unit, does it count? Do I have to purposefully slow roll and make sure that my warlord's attacks get the kill? "Each time your WARLORD model destroys an enemy CHARACTER, MONSTER or VEHICLE unit, it gains 2XP"
If it specifies model, yes, it has to be the Warlord. I have the same problem with Morvenn Vahl who only generates miracle dice if she finishes the unit
If a model in a unit has precision like the arquebus in squitari you make it go first and it deals the damage, do the following shots goes to the damaged character or to other models since thwy dont have precision?
Only precision attacks can go on the character. Even if the character loses wounds. You can see more here: ua-cam.com/video/4pRhcc1vxsQ/v-deo.htmlsi=ts9m69x0xCRCxPfb
I mean sure its true line of sight except no its not you can shoot through your own models even if you can't see and no its not you can't fire through this ruin even though you can see through it.
Didn’t they change the rules so parts of the model that overhang the base are no longer count for line of sight in like an FAQ like one or two months ago so things like wings and guns no longer screw you over
only if those parts overhang the edge of the board or overhang a bit of area terrain. It matters for area terrain to determine if you are "inside" and can be shot, or are behind and out of line of sight
@@ChristianVonCarmian40kVtuber It's in the Core Rules Update V 1.3 : "Ruins (and Visibility): The diagrams below illustrate how visibility can be affected when units are within, wholly within or behind Ruins. For Vehicles (excluding Walker models that have a base) or models without bases, every part of the model and its base (if it has one) is used for determining if it is not within, within or wholly within a Ruin. For all other models, the model’s base is used to determine if it is not within, within or wholly within a Ruin, and for the purposes of visibility into or through a Ruin, visibility to and from such a model that overhangs its base is determined only by its base and parts of that model that do not overhang its base."
@@CountlessCarrots In my example in the video the wing is in the alleyway, not in a ruin or overhanging a ruin. All of the model was behind the ruin apart from the wing which was not in the ruin but was visible without drawing line of sight into or through the ruin.
i as a sculptor and kitbasher, feel very uncomfortable that its not the base that have to be seen but what goes left and right above the radius, so i could never buld some cool winged space marines or lengthy arms and tentacles for tyranids, or stick my wlakers on a tactical rock because it whould be impossible that they ever whould have cover... thats sad.
I thought they released a FAQ that changed it to exactly what you are describing though, but maybe I’m completely wrong and our group has been playing it “incorrectly”
@@Braindead154 This FAQ works only with area terrain and ruins. All other types of terrain (like containers) still use true LOS P.S. i hope they will apply this area terrain rules to other types of terrain
This is why I think units should have silhouettes. What's my model's LoS: the base and everything X cm/in up. Would make things simpler and avoid modeling for advantage shenanigans.
5:44 Pistols cannot be shot with other ranged weapons just an FYI. In the rules "Cannot be shot alongside any other non-Pistol weapon (except by a MONSTER or VEHICLE)" great video either way! blast and toughness were things i was wrong about after watching this
that rule is referring to Models that have both pistols and other guns. So if the sgt in this example had a boltgun and a pistol, it would be one or the other. But the model only has a pistol, so only fires the pistol
I really hate the shooting from and targeting of wing tip, antenna, tip of a banner, etc. Killing models completely not in LOS also irks me. Can't we at least say you have to target/shoot from parts of the model within the base?
Call me Dr Krankenfoof if you want but I don't see how you have come to the conclusion you did about the Primus and Locus popping out into separate units when the Acolyte unit is destroyed. Saying "it has to work out that way to make sure things work the same as they do with fast rolling" is not a reason to resolve the attacks this way, the first sentence of the fast rolling rule is literally "The rules for making attacks have been written assuming you will resolve them one at a time." (Core rules, p 24) If you resolve the attacks one at a time, as soon as the last Acolyte model is destroyed, the unit is destroyed, per "Destroyed," (core rules, p 12). This makes the Primus and Locus form new units per the multi-leader rule in the various lieutenant style unit cards. Even if you claim that Fast Rolling is authoritative, fast rolling only allows for the simultaneous resolution of hit and wound rolls. It does NOT allow for simultaneous resolution of attack allocation: "make all of the Hit rolls at the same time, then all of the Wound rolls. Your opponent can then allocate the attacks one at a time..." (Core rules, p 24) So even if you argue all the rolled hits still apply, and even if you argue that the wound rolls still apply, these new units can not have wounds allocated to the new units per the "allocate attack" step, (core rules, p 22), because the Primus and Locus are not a part of the target unit due to previous attacks, being allocated one at a time, destroying the Acolyte unit and causing them to pop out into separate new units. The reason deadly demise and fight on death and similar rules work is they have a specific exception to interrupt the process of destroying the model to resolve that rule before the model it removed. No such exception exists for the multi-leader rules. There is no "when the attacking unit finishes resolving its attacks, they form a new unit" style wording. Bodyguard unit is destroyed, bam, 2 instant new units that were not selected as the target of the attacks that destroyed the old unit they are no longer in. This is, of course, stupid. But if your interpretation of how 10th edition rules work aren't stupid and unintuitive you're probably getting it wrong.
Except in the Errata, page 9, where GW updated the "LEADER" rule, Page 39 - Leader Add the following: ‘Each time the last model in a Bodyguard unit is destroyed, each Character unit that is part of that Attached unit is no longer part of an Attached unit. It becomes a separate unit, with its original Starting Strength. If this happens as the result of an attack, they become separate units after the attacking unit has resolved all of its attacks. Each time the last model in a Character unit that is attached to a Bodyguard unit is destroyed and there is not another Character unit attached, that Attached unit’s Bodyguard unit is no longer part of an Attached unit. It becomes a separate unit, with its original Starting Strength. If this happens as the result of an attack, they become separate units after the attacking unit has resolved all of its attacks. Each time a unit that is part of an Attached unit is destroyed, it does not have the keywords of any other units that make up that Attached unit (unless it has those keywords on its own datasheet) for the purposes of any rules that would be triggered when that unit is destroyed. I guess we can all hate on GW for not putting all their updates in one place, and not updating the online Rules PDF with the errata that's also published as a PDF right next to it. It's even worse that it seems GW pays it's rules writers by the word, instead of coming up with something short and quick.
Soo, as the app as a sponsor. It seems unfair to use during a game. in a theory crafting setting it is a nice tool, but during a game it kind of slows down and seems like "Cheating". The spirit of the game is to trust the dice. in conclusion, I'm not against the app as a list building tool. But In my opinion you are no better then a cheater if you pull it out during a game.
il be frank, if the shooting rulles where confusing you in 10th, the most overly simplified version of 40k....i have no idea how you been playing it for a while now......like its like saying you didn't get the rules to finding waldo yet have multiple books finished.
If you want to figure out your odds of beating an enemy unit or seeing how much damage your favourite model can endure, try the Adept Roll app:
Website
adeptroll.com/
Google Play
play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.adept_roll
iOS
apps.apple.com/gb/app/adept-roll-mathhammer-app/id1480073816
Every second that passes lead me deeper and deeper into my appreciation for the Fights phase.
“Happy birthday” :D
“But only if that’s applicable” :c
I always imagined things like the predator doing a sort of battleship roll, pivoting on the spot to give all the guns a clear shot on a target. Same with an infantry unit taking wounds on models out of sight. They're scrambling around, taking cover, bracing their weapons, realoding, dodging.
I always imagine a model's place on the board as its approximate position in the actual battle - things are always moving around - the Dark Eldar raider in the first example moves out a little, shoots its weapons, returns to its position.
I always imagined the models out of vision taking damage as those models filling in the formation when it's broken ahead of them. makes more sense in age of sigmar than in 40k though!
I think those examples make sense too.
As long as the rules make a kind of sense and facilitate the story you're trying to tell with your guys I think they've done their job.
@@pandoragoldspan7012 like you say, maybe that makes more sense in AoS. In 40K, where models are typically trying to make use of cover it makes absolutely 0 sense. Being able to target models that are not visible with direct fire guns is one of the stupidest rules in the entire game, and doesn't help in terms of necessitating very dense terrain set-ups as a unit must be completely obscured to avoid being picked up entirely.
@@samhunter1205 ok
My family house rules that objects not physically part of the model’s normal anatomy (such as a sword being pointed forwards at the enemy) does not count for line of sight either way.
What about magnus' wing? Or a changer of ways' wing?
We don’t count wings. Realistically they would be folded up behind the bearer and are only outstretched as such for the sake of making the model look cool.
The longer this video goes on, the more I am upset
These rules are so bad... This cant seriously be how people play?
@@PatrixBestIt's worse because each player has their own interpretation of the rules one person will have a wounded character and state they can't be hit unless they have precision where in another scene the same scenario occurs and the person saves on their wounded character
and the first person would be correct.
Leader rule: Each time an attack sucessfully wounds an Attached unit, that attack cannot be allocated to a Character model in that unit, even if that Character model
has lost one or more wounds
I love these videos, which really helps me, a new player, to fully understand the rules. Your comprehensive skills knows no bounds it seems Sir Carmian
thanks! I tried to find the weirdest situations possible and explain them as much as I can
@@ChristianVonCarmian40kVtuberI would love to see more rules explanation vids from you because this one was great and informative.
Things like Pile in / consolidate, stacking damage reduction order of operations…. Not fast rolling feel no pain rolls.
I could go for a whole series of these from you
The LOS system is one of those things where I feel like 40k just sticks with worse versions of rules for tradition's sake. There are other games that use eg volumetric line of sight with height values and it just undercuts all of that stuff, as well as enabling you to model without worrying that your monster's dynamic pose will get them killed
I've been thinking about trying 40k and looking at the rules, so this helps a lot. thanks.
You are welcome!
Na easy to imagine how true line of sight works for me, is that every army in 40k has some sort of "radar scan." Every unit knows ROUGHLY where everything else is at. As soon as anything breaks cover at all, your competent units are able to roughly determine where that thing is at and fire without wasting precious ammo. All ammo can easily go through random cinder blocks or other loose terrain, but because physics everything slows and this has less stopping power (resulting in the -1ap for cover)
The MOST important rule: Overkill is best kill. Split Fire is for martyrs.
As a new player, I am okay with the 'unrealistic' aspects of shooting, but the rules in 10th just don't seem to be written in an airtight way so that you can always logic out what the correct result is. It has been many years since I played any game with as many case by case errata.
This is what people mean when they say the rules feel "gamey".
The problem is each new ed they seem to get worse. Been playing for years and its pretty sad but that is of course my opinion.
The shooting rules are the very definition of "Simple, but not intuitive".
I agree a Tactical Squad is a wonderfull unit you have good taste
Mechanically it does seem odd, but thinking cinematically of whats happening is the tank is driving up, shooting and pulling back, the space marine is peeking out taking his shots and moving back. etc etc etc.
i must say, pretty well done to explain the madness
Thanks. The battle maps were more to help me than anyone else.
Thanks for the explanation! I feel like this finally helped me click into place the bits that I didn't quite understand for the shooting phase. Love your explanation videos!
Regarding models within a unit dying, yet not affecting subsequent shots from the same unit, I always refer to it as taking a "snapshot" of the unit at the time you declared your attacks, and using the properties the attacks would have at that time. I think it comes up the most when I fire Blast weapons after a non-blast weapon and need to remind myself I get the full attack bonus for the starting model count
This makes me appreciate the way Kill Team makes you draw lines from base to base, and for each individual unit.
I ironically am watching this on my birthday. Thank you for the happy birthday
True line of sight is the worst rule in the entirety of 10th edition, completely takes me out of the game whenever someone shoots my lord of changes wing tip with the backside door of one of their tanks or anything else like that.
...why?
Was he hiding for the next round too?
Don't mistake turn based play for turn based fighting.
The rules were changed like a month ago if your wings overhang the base but the model itself is behind cover you should be good.
the wings only matter when determining if a model is in area terrain (and can be shot) or totally behind it (and can't be shot). If the wing is sticking out at the side - they can still be shot if you can see that part of the wing
I have no words to describe how much I love your tone in this vid, keep it up
Thanks, will do!
Also, Thanks a lot for the video! Well made and very good at breaking down some of the mess of shooting.
20:18 seems like a disadvantage for armies that use a large number of lone operatives.
Italians do prefer pasta dishes.
And I agree, I wish Line of Sight was base to base. It would mean that you don't need to worry about tactically folding in wings/tails, etc.
And then there would be no modeling for advantage (or disadvantage, I suppose)
Oh man and this video didn't even talk about the confusion around how LoS is determined when including Ruins. Like one model in a unit barely touching a ruin makes them all eligible to be shot, but none of them can shoot back.
This rule alone has made me facepalm so much. Makes any chunky vehicles god awful in heavy ruin maps if they are too fat and can't fit wholy inside the ruin floor plan
14:35 dang, that's a lotta ones 😂
it happens too often
The example of shooting magnus because his wings reach past a building isn't correct for terrain classified as ruins, as of the 1.5 rules commentary. It is correct for terrain classified as something else.
this video explains the situation in this video and when the rules commentary exception is applied: ua-cam.com/video/jZsScSBjsMU/v-deo.htmlsi=9dpm-qiFdsWy_bYo
Almost applicable. One day late with that "happy birthday".
9:20 I'm in a pod of new wargamers and I sent this to a friend to explain why we could still kill his models behind a building after he nearly rage quit against me when I explained it in game. He would have quit but some other nearby gamers came over and vindicated me lol. I did tell him we could just disregard that but "Rules are rules" he said.
It does feel bad when a squad of 10 gets wiped because half of ONE guy was visible. I'd wonder how good/bad it would feel to only be able to kill models visible to your unit, vs a unit visible to your unit. Maybe some additional weapon profiles to separate "explosive" weapons from "precision" fire so some weapons CAN hurt models not fully visible but others can't? So like a model that your UNIT is eligible to shoot, but a particular model might not be fully visible to any other specific relevant model
7th edition had the "only kill models you can see". It was ok but the argument was, if the plasma gunner can only see one model, how can he kill 2 models - just because the other killed model was visible to another model in the plasma gunner squad
The happy birthday was funny. Have a subscribe.
This just feels like it's going to open a whole can of worms when it comes to gaming the system. Make your models as small and compact as possible.
Well, it is almost my birthday
It feels like GWs rules team just take the p*** at times
12:45 so I thought that you roll out all your attacks since they happen simultaneously. Then in the next step hand the bucket of dice over too your opponent who then chooses what attack too resolve one at a time specifically for damage mitigation. So the D3 weapon on the dudie with 1W remaining, and then when dudie dies, dudius who has 3W remaining starts rolling out D1 weapon shots untill 1W remains and start rolling D3 weapons agian becuase you are the controlling player allocating wounds.
because each weapon profile is resolved as a group, the attacking player with choose a profile to resolve, like D1 boltguns. Then saves are made. Then the attacker picks another profile like D3 weapons and saves are made on them
If we cannot shoot through units does that mean for exemple that i could use my land raider as makeshift line of sight blockers on the fly?
as long as there are no gaps underneath (see my video on cover), it will be a good sight blocker. And that was the original role of tanks in WW1
@ thats very cool i never thought it worked like that, very good video, i learned something new!
Wrong:
[Ruines and visibility]
…For the purpose of visibility into or through a Ruin, visibility to and from such a model that overhangs its base is determined only by its base and parts of that model that do not overhang its base.
So no hitting the edge of a wing anymore.
In my example in the video the wing is in the alleyway, not in a ruin or overhanging a ruin. All of the model was behind the ruin apart from the wing which was not in the ruin but was visible without drawing line of sight into or through the ruin.
It can still be shot
@@ChristianVonCarmian40kVtuber Per the section in Terrain Features, does the ruin in any way interact with the model when determining visibility (aka is it the cause for any part of it to not be fully visible when looking from behind (aka the furthest point away) of the attcking model?
Yes? Well congratulations, by rules and definitions of basic the english language you are shooting through (cover of) ruins to try and hit the nipple-horn-chicken boy.
I just imagined that they turn around to shoot, and guns can shoot through walls like in counterstrike.
Thank you. It's a milestone one. Not til Thursday, though. You're a little early
well its confusing for people who played older editions i guess, but its actually quite simple
I can recommend Adept Roll, it’s pretty decent
I probably played to long already. That stuff was confusing 15 years ago, when we had fun stuff: like split fire didn’t really exist. So you had moments where you only shot a single weapon, even though the rest of the unit had visible targets.
I guess you planned to make viewers more and more “upset” while watching, for me I just thought: yeah, thats actually the most reasonable approach to this problem. Having seen many interesting solutions in different tapletop systems, you quickly learn that “realistic shooting” is the worst, complicated and annoying option (shooting already can last quite long, imagine you need to draw line of sight per model, roll everything separately and do it with a community that abuses every rule they can find for competitive)
I have to test the app.
Either I'm weird, or my 14 years of experience is showing. This doesnt seem that convoluted at all?
It really seems straight forward
Maybe it's because I've only started playing in 10th edition, but, as a new player, the shooting rules feel intuitive to me somehow?
Just got boxes of Seraphim/ Zepharim, Retributors and a Battle Sister/ Dominion/ Celestian squad (I still believe in their return); what's the best way to mix and match parts at the minute?
Was goign to go Melta/ bolters on the retributors, but there are options in the codex that aren't in the Battle Sisters box but are in the Seraphim box.
melta/flamer may be better. I know there are only two heavy flamers unless you convert them with melta barrels from the dominion box.
I like all meltas on the sisters (including seraphim inferno pistol) or all flamers (including seraphim hand flamer).
At the moment hand flamers are the best for seraphim but having one with hand flamer, one with inferno pistol has worked well enough for me
Ну впринцепи как-то так я игроков за эльдар себе и представлял...
God I hate true line of sight
You forgot precision key word rules at the end, other than that great video.
I will fix that now
added to the end, here is the video if you want to see it for yourself now: ua-cam.com/video/4pRhcc1vxsQ/v-deo.htmlsi=qzBI-xX6X7GhJd0L
@@ChristianVonCarmian40kVtuber Thx haha sorry didn't know you already made a video about it :)
I love the 40k lore but this is why I've moved on to OPR.
The only thing i am still confused about is ruins footprints. At the very least on TTS, ruins have fully rectangular footprints but only half of it is actually walled. My friend insists that if 2 units, who can see each other, are each wholly outside that ruin footpring which is between them, they cannot shoot each other. This conflicts with true LOS but the rules for ruins state otherwise? Help???
He is correct.
Really TTS, mainly the wtc templates could do with some extra stuff but it's mostly a tts issue.
@drewburnard i appreciate this thank you. It's unintuitive but I guess all of this is.
Wait I thought they changed it so Angrons wings don’t count and it’s the base that has to be within line of sight?
the wings only matter when determining if a model is in area terrain (and can be shot) or totally behind it (and can't be shot). If the wing is sticking out at the side - they can still be shot if you can see that part of the wing
@@ChristianVonCarmian40kVtuberthank you 😊
Thats why i play world eaters, meele is simpler
omfg thx you!
With all attacks happening at the same time within a unit, how does Morvenn Vahl's Righteous Repugnance interact with that? The ability specifies that you gain a miracle die when *this model* destroys a unit.
you would have to try and plan it so that between the weapons of the paragon warsuit, Vahl is the one to destroy an enemy unit.
I know it is annoying. I have to hope that there is a weak enemy that Vahl can finish off with her attacks before any Paragon attacks are resolved
So, how does that affect specific models in attached units that need to get kills? For instance, in crusade one of my secondaries is for my Warlord model to get kills, if his attached unit attacks and destroys the unit, does it count? Do I have to purposefully slow roll and make sure that my warlord's attacks get the kill?
"Each time your WARLORD model destroys an enemy CHARACTER, MONSTER or VEHICLE unit, it gains 2XP"
If it specifies model, yes, it has to be the Warlord.
I have the same problem with Morvenn Vahl who only generates miracle dice if she finishes the unit
@@ChristianVonCarmian40kVtuber So is slow rolling single weapons at a time permissible in this instance?
@@SorcerySpeedConcede yes
If a model in a unit has precision like the arquebus in squitari you make it go first and it deals the damage, do the following shots goes to the damaged character or to other models since thwy dont have precision?
Only precision attacks can go on the character. Even if the character loses wounds. You can see more here: ua-cam.com/video/4pRhcc1vxsQ/v-deo.htmlsi=ts9m69x0xCRCxPfb
I mean sure its true line of sight except no its not you can shoot through your own models even if you can't see and no its not you can't fire through this ruin even though you can see through it.
Didn’t they change the rules so parts of the model that overhang the base are no longer count for line of sight in like an FAQ like one or two months ago so things like wings and guns no longer screw you over
only if those parts overhang the edge of the board or overhang a bit of area terrain. It matters for area terrain to determine if you are "inside" and can be shot, or are behind and out of line of sight
@@ChristianVonCarmian40kVtuber It's in the Core Rules Update V 1.3 :
"Ruins (and Visibility): The diagrams below illustrate how visibility
can be affected when units are within, wholly within or behind Ruins.
For Vehicles (excluding Walker models that have a base) or models
without bases, every part of the model and its base (if it has one) is
used for determining if it is not within, within or wholly within a Ruin.
For all other models, the model’s base is used to determine if it is
not within, within or wholly within a Ruin, and for the purposes of
visibility into or through a Ruin, visibility to and from such a model
that overhangs its base is determined only by its base and parts of
that model that do not overhang its base."
@@CountlessCarrots In my example in the video the wing is in the alleyway, not in a ruin or overhanging a ruin. All of the model was behind the ruin apart from the wing which was not in the ruin but was visible without drawing line of sight into or through the ruin.
You're overthinking it homie. The firing model is literally just shooting thru the building. Not unrealistic especially if it's tank, explosives, etc.
i as a sculptor and kitbasher, feel very uncomfortable that its not the base that have to be seen but what goes left and right above the radius, so i could never buld some cool winged space marines or lengthy arms and tentacles for tyranids, or stick my wlakers on a tactical rock because it whould be impossible that they ever whould have cover... thats sad.
I thought they released a FAQ that changed it to exactly what you are describing though, but maybe I’m completely wrong and our group has been playing it “incorrectly”
@@Braindead154 This FAQ works only with area terrain and ruins. All other types of terrain (like containers) still use true LOS
P.S. i hope they will apply this area terrain rules to other types of terrain
This is why I think units should have silhouettes. What's my model's LoS: the base and everything X cm/in up. Would make things simpler and avoid modeling for advantage shenanigans.
If shooting is done unit by unit, does this mean if one one model is in rapid fire range, all models can rapid fire?
no, weapon range is calculated for each model
What about the overhang rule?
it is in this video on Ruins: ua-cam.com/video/jZsScSBjsMU/v-deo.htmlsi=CGE60u1-0lH8o-Lz
Can you say happy birthday again in march?
Italians prefer pasta dishes
5:44 Pistols cannot be shot with other ranged weapons just an FYI. In the rules "Cannot be shot alongside any other non-Pistol weapon (except by a MONSTER or VEHICLE)"
great video either way! blast and toughness were things i was wrong about after watching this
that rule is referring to Models that have both pistols and other guns. So if the sgt in this example had a boltgun and a pistol, it would be one or the other. But the model only has a pistol, so only fires the pistol
@ChristianVonCarmian40kVtuber ahhhh gotcha, yup that makes sense, didnt see what the unit was comprised of!
I really hate the shooting from and targeting of wing tip, antenna, tip of a banner, etc. Killing models completely not in LOS also irks me. Can't we at least say you have to target/shoot from parts of the model within the base?
Cool and all, but how does this affect the Templar Crusade Squad?
you might get shot before the chainswords do their thing
Call me Dr Krankenfoof if you want but I don't see how you have come to the conclusion you did about the Primus and Locus popping out into separate units when the Acolyte unit is destroyed. Saying "it has to work out that way to make sure things work the same as they do with fast rolling" is not a reason to resolve the attacks this way, the first sentence of the fast rolling rule is literally "The rules for making attacks have been written assuming you will resolve them one at a time." (Core rules, p 24)
If you resolve the attacks one at a time, as soon as the last Acolyte model is destroyed, the unit is destroyed, per "Destroyed," (core rules, p 12). This makes the Primus and Locus form new units per the multi-leader rule in the various lieutenant style unit cards.
Even if you claim that Fast Rolling is authoritative, fast rolling only allows for the simultaneous resolution of hit and wound rolls. It does NOT allow for simultaneous resolution of attack allocation: "make all of the Hit rolls at the same time, then all of the Wound rolls. Your opponent can then allocate the attacks one at a time..." (Core rules, p 24) So even if you argue all the rolled hits still apply, and even if you argue that the wound rolls still apply, these new units can not have wounds allocated to the new units per the "allocate attack" step, (core rules, p 22), because the Primus and Locus are not a part of the target unit due to previous attacks, being allocated one at a time, destroying the Acolyte unit and causing them to pop out into separate new units.
The reason deadly demise and fight on death and similar rules work is they have a specific exception to interrupt the process of destroying the model to resolve that rule before the model it removed. No such exception exists for the multi-leader rules. There is no "when the attacking unit finishes resolving its attacks, they form a new unit" style wording. Bodyguard unit is destroyed, bam, 2 instant new units that were not selected as the target of the attacks that destroyed the old unit they are no longer in.
This is, of course, stupid. But if your interpretation of how 10th edition rules work aren't stupid and unintuitive you're probably getting it wrong.
Except in the Errata, page 9, where GW updated the "LEADER" rule,
Page 39 - Leader Add the following: ‘Each time the last model in a Bodyguard unit is destroyed, each Character unit that is part of that Attached unit is no longer part of an Attached unit. It becomes a separate unit, with its original Starting Strength. If this happens as the result of an attack, they become separate units after the attacking unit has resolved all of its attacks.
Each time the last model in a Character unit that is attached to a Bodyguard unit is destroyed and there is not another Character unit attached, that Attached unit’s Bodyguard unit is no longer part of an Attached unit. It becomes a separate unit, with its original Starting Strength. If this happens as the result of an attack, they become separate units after the attacking unit has resolved all of its attacks.
Each time a unit that is part of an Attached unit is destroyed, it does not have the keywords of any other units that make up that Attached unit (unless it has those keywords on its own datasheet) for the purposes of any rules that would be triggered when that unit is destroyed.
I guess we can all hate on GW for not putting all their updates in one place, and not updating the online Rules PDF with the errata that's also published as a PDF right next to it. It's even worse that it seems GW pays it's rules writers by the word, instead of coming up with something short and quick.
@SgtBeltfed Well it's nice that they finally fixed it, even if it took longer than my interest in 10th ed held out.
Im 6 min your video and i dont refreg not starting with 40k wtf is this ruling im staying AOS
Soo, as the app as a sponsor. It seems unfair to use during a game. in a theory crafting setting it is a nice tool, but during a game it kind of slows down and seems like "Cheating". The spirit of the game is to trust the dice. in conclusion, I'm not against the app as a list building tool. But In my opinion you are no better then a cheater if you pull it out during a game.
TLOS has been a bane since 5th edition.
FIRST
il be frank, if the shooting rulles where confusing you in 10th, the most overly simplified version of 40k....i have no idea how you been playing it for a while now......like its like saying you didn't get the rules to finding waldo yet have multiple books finished.