Why Hypercarry Champions Are Impossible To Balance | League of Legends
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- Опубліковано 14 жов 2023
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Hypercarry champions seem to have this issue where they're either overpowered beyond belief or completely worthless, yet even when they're in a somewhat balanced position, games with them involved end up feeling very polarized. Today we're gonna discuss why hypercarry champions are impossible to balance in League of Legends.
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#LoL #hypercarry #leagueoflegends - Ігри
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that was the smoothest sponsor ive ever seen
@@wumpus5 The nose breath I did from that transition LMAO
Now imagine there was HyperAnti-Carries
there kind of? are
Riot in 2025: "WRITE THAT DOWN WRITE THAT DOWN"
That'd be cool to see, I assume they would just be the most effective anti carries
Malzahar R now targets every champion on the enemy team at the same time, lasts 10 seconds per target, resets on kill and is global
What would the abilities even look like?
A shield, that blocks damage only from targeted enemy, but gets refreshed when destroyed?
I feel like after the addition of the new items there's very few champions that truly are late game carries anymore. So much damage comes from item passives instead of pure stats which would benefit champions with higher ad/ap ratios. You're basically playing the items instead of the champions and what champion is broken is decided by who can abuse the current broken items. :/
So hwo can abuse mid
@@HHHHHHHHH8893Control mages that can deal with goredrinker abusers while being able to have pressure on Lane, basically only orianna and syndra
Well good news is that at least Mythic items are being removed, lets see how scaling will work then
@@XanKreigori will try league after they remove mythics, I stopped actually playing after that update it always felt wrong
@@XanKreigorI hope riot decides against pure Stat stick and passive items. It'd be nice to start adding some active items that are interesting and make you choose between full Stat sticks, and strong powerful abilities.
Riot has leaned really far into the ease of use and simplicity to its detriment. Game feels stale in regards to items especially if your not bruiser support or mage and their options aren't that much more interesting.
When it comes to hypercarries in the jungle, I think Riot needs to remove (or seriously reduce) the power of catchup XP and treats. Predator junglers used to be a huge problem for hypercarries because, once they gained a lead, were able to actively take away resources from their opponent. Laners don't have that same luxury, they can only deny the enemy resources.
i think catchup XP just got nerfed this patch (13.20) right?
@@jordanoharegibson1610this patch changed all Jung basically It was some patch ago that reduce XP catchup
It's a decent thought, but it's even more problematic than that. They just need to slow down the game back down. As vars mentioned, the game just doesn't last long enough any more for there to be a reasonable tipping point. Either the game lasts barely too long and they need to be as strong as two champions in order to make it worth playing, or the game is too short and they have to be worth only half a champion. Not to mention, parabolic scaling comes into direct conflict with the way riot seems to want the game to work. Early leads just don't matter as much as late ones because of things like tower plates and shutdowns, not to mention catchup xp, turret resistances and more impactful objectives spawning later, so they would have to start their parabolic scaling later or slower than you'd want for the champion to feel good to play as.
If you think gold and xp from jungle camps is a luxury you are clueless
@@aaronscott7467 I fully agree, at least for any rank below grandmaster (I watch games of challenger/grandmaster, I don't play there myself lol).
I just think the problem is that they are so hit or miss it just feels they always run it down when on your team and fk you up when on enemy
I exclusively play Utility junglers because I find them the most consistent. Utility junglers are about 100% effective all the time. Hyper-carries range from 0% to 200% effective.
@@StrangeTheEditorutility junglers are nice until the hyper carry comes. I gave up on playing udyr tank in the wake of a surge Graves jungle. I'd easily go kill a Graves in his jungle 4 times before the mid game, have him finish his first item and start one shotting me.
Play better
@@hrodvithit Let me give you an example of Udyr vs Graves in a late game fight outside Baron. There's multiple people running in all directions trying to kill each-other.
Graves is using his abilities, shooting people for huge damage, but with his cooldowns and skillshots he can only deal with one direction at a time.
Udyr can use his R or Q Passive to deal damage to an enemy while moving away from them, use his E to move faster between targets and CC them with E and R, use his W to peel for his allies.
@@StrangeTheEditor this example would be relevant of graves wasn't point blank one-two tapping everyone.
Fun fact, vayne is often misclassified as a late game champ. She’s pretty good late game but she is at her most powerful in the midgame.
Same as Nasus. Nasus is strong late but peaks in midgame.
Who peaks in late-lategame? Kayle?
@@Elimbi1ye
I think A-sol and Kayle are the only true super late game champs at this point. Azir, Jinx, Zeri and Kasadin being onestep down in 1v9 late game.
Oh and A-sol the main true late game champion as he is by far the strongest champion past 50+ minutes.
Viegar lategame I think is overated because he can only truly kill 1 person with his ult before dying.
@@brydonthunder viegar late game doesn't need ult though, w is normally enough tbh.
Balance is obviously a problem but I feel like they're often kept weak because they are too game altering. Locking a hyper carry basically warps the entire game for both teams (and not for the better). Your team basically all becomes your support or they accept its a 4v5 and the enemy team shifts to having to keep you down or ff at 30 mins. That just isnt really fun for anyone except the person that locked the hyper carry.
And only half of the time for the hyper carry player, since being camped/invaded the whole game is a pretty miserable experience.
@@FranciscoJG yeah which is why I feel like riot has tried to give hyper carries "agency" or QOL updates to make the early game not feel as bad. But then that just means they snowball quicker. The concept is just a little too problematic
Agreed. The hypercarry archetype is just toxic for the game. When they pop off it sucks for 9 other people. If they don't it sucks for their player.
@@sirbobulous yeah. It's a fun idea on paper and a great "gameplay fantasy." I just don't think there is any healthy way to pull it off. Feast or famine just doesn't feel good to play as or with.
I'm not sure about this video classifying Lilia and Kayn as hyper carries. Sure, they scale really well, but they actually bring some pretty good cc and some level of front line to the table, thus I don't think they fulfill this description of "lategame 1v9 type of champion that doesn't contribute much utility to their team"
I do agree that most of the time it is not fun seeing a hyper carry champions on either team. Master Yi in particular makes me salty whenever I see him on my team as 50% of Yi players just seem to steal your farm or last hit your solo kills whenever possible if you're winning lane, whilst leave you stranded when you're even slightly behind (the other 50% is actually fine though). I've seen Yi's just walk through mid, q my wave, smite my cannon and move through to the next camp whilst I'm actually in lane in a neutral lane state. This was before Riot made changes to significantly reduce the gold gains junglers get from farming minions early game, but nonetheless, this only ever happened to me with Yi's, and it wasn't just a single time either.
its easier to balance a tank than hyper carry
ksante: allow me to introduce myself
Ksante is not a tank tho.He is a bruiser.Even when buying full tank items his extremely low cd on his q and grasp make him deal out a considerable amount of damage.Not to mention out his all out form which essentially makes him a completely different champion.
love playing adc and my belveth goes "i don't do ganks, i'm the carry" and just afk farms topside whenever i get re-repeat ganked for the 10th time
3:40.
I know it sucks, but it is fair. One bad gank and her power spike goes from lvl 12 to level 14.
Belveth isnt a hypercarry shes a early game champ/ snowballer
@mechupaunhuevon7662 that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. we're talking about the problems of hypercarry junglers not crying about teammates inting.
@@fliaem completely wrong, especially after last patch
@@bigsmoke4592a challenger 2k lp one trick said that she is a snowball champ, but i am sure u know the champ better
remember when not to long ago the balance team wanted to punish players for invading the enemy jungle, i remember
Oh you mean this most recent time because they’ve tried this a few times.
Invading jungle is good! Interaction is good! I might be a Kindred main so I'm not biased
hypercarrys woudnt be such a big problem if the didnt have as much mobility or stait up invicibility. Yi isnt a problem untill you realise that he just dogedt all your dmg and cc with his q or kayle just being imune to dmg. I really dont thint them dealing a million dmg is the peoblem, its them being able to doge all your dmg while dealing a million dmg that makes them so broken. and im not convinced that they would suck if you took away some of there tools to avoid dmg. they would be harder and would need to play smater insted of just running in and killing everyone once they hit like 3-4 items.
That's why the now Drakhtar Passive is bs. 1 kill and he got free out of jail card. It used to be risky to pick a player and finding a way out that's not involving being dead. Now you just dash in, kill adc, dash out.
the problem is in items. blade of the ruined king as an item for instance can supplement being a full item behind on someone who cant use the item. same goes for hullbreaker. items have become so important that the perfect user of certain items just wins.
My lord that was an amazing plug for the sponsor, well done! And great vid
Just wanted to say the editing in this one is absolutely superb! It was a delight to watch :)
Really love the editing on this video, nice one Vars!
Honestly League suffers from the "One-shot, or be one-shoted" syndrome wich makes games be really sufferable for everyone
No one likes hyper carries because of their capabilities of literally fucking the game by destroying you without much thougth process, however when non hyper carries (or at least non fed ones) and everyone else starts doing this what's the fun? If the 0/9 Katarina just buys an item and is exploding the 3/0 Ornn it shows the state of an unbalanced mess mascareded as an game and this happens due to items simply being overtunned/overpowered
An example would be botrk. Life steal, ad, attcak speed, max health damage and a slow. This thing feels like the ability or the entire kit of an champion but you can buy with 3200 gold being the powerspike of any fast attacker (adc's, Irelia, Yasuo 1, Yasuo 2)
Not to mention League has no buy back revive like dota2. So you can't exactly have one last teamfight gamble. the "One-shot, or be one-shoted" syndrome is the bane of adc. I've been in so many teamfights where I can do so much more but an Assassin just oneshots me out of no where without touching the tank or my support noticing and get out free since Drakhtar makes you untargetable.
@@varnix1006you were probably mispositioned and fighting without proper vision, you can't put the blame on assassins
Could you please do a up to date, list of hyper carries or something similar. Your videos have helped me a lot with finding what champs I enjoy and don't but I have always wondered who are the hyper carries or if they change in and out of from being one. Thank you for making helpful videos and remember that you are amazing! c:
"It's easier to balance a tank than a hypercarry"
Yes, it's called Riot adding in more anti-tank items because they refuse to accept the fact that tanks deserve to feel strong.
Yeah but then they buff tank's damage and a fucking Poppy with Ninja Tabi deals like 70% in a single combo lol
@@andressacco1002 Poppy already does that. She has high base damage because she is a tank.
@@andressacco1002 As a poppy main, I fully agree with both sentiments. Tank items give way too much damage and way too few defensive stats for how much anti-tank there is.
@@seamusrichardson5601 She didn't used to. In season 9, so right before the mythic rework, her normal build was ibg and a couple other tank items and she'd do about 50% of a person's health. The problem lies in the fact that since the mythic rework there is just so much more damage randomly available, even on tank items.
The other big issue is that the tank items they do make don't have some kind of caveat or rider that makes them useful for only tank builds. So you get Bruisers running them and having insane durability and high damage or you get the Assassins picking up one item as it gives them just enough survivability to attack 2 more times and kill something with their damage before escaping or whatever.
I feel like some of the tank items should have their passives only trigger if you already have a certain amount of bonus armour or bonus MR or something so they're not abusable by the 'wrong' builds. So you can have powerful tank items without them being more useful on non-tanks.
I am looking forward to this topic, you keep finding intresting stuff to talk about
I definitely agree, that hypercarries currently are way too strong early, and I say that as a Kindred otp. I am not even only 3-camping, if I’m blue side, I oftenly even invade at lvl 2 to get an early mark and first blood off my opponent doing his grump. I can remember having to full clear and maintain a cs/Minute of like 6 to 7 the entire game until I could actually 1v1 my opponent at lvl 11 and with the new keystone changes Kindred have become even more of a threat early…
How do i get good at Kindred sister help me please haha
@@aaronsound I'm not crazy good on them myself and...well...kindred do be one of the champs where you need good macro and at least 300 games until you see results. you'll pop off before but you need that experience to also carry with a bad early
Well played on the ad. Didnt see it coming.
Not sure if you started a new editing style lately but I LOVE IT!
The last line "Its a lot easier to balance a tank than a hyper carry"
*Laughs in K'sante*
basically they are disgusting to fight against, some are only countered by hard CC and who isn't countered by hard cc?, like really. Riot just made them for flashy plays, and now we have to deal with disgusting things like Viego and Yone, and even Briar can hypercarry with her absurd damage and self sustain.
If they scale off AD and have half a brain, not even hard CC stop them after a QSS
Tbf I'm not the best player as I'm just a plat scrub but haven't seen a briar be a huge problem, fed briar is definitely strong and hard to kill but it's not like she can dodge cc and you can keep her at bay unlike some other champs
@@gorkemaykut5230See, because Briar is actually countered by CC, since dodging is way harder for her
@@doommaker4000 that's what I'm saying
She doesn't have a good and reliable way to dodge things and she doesn't have an escape tool if something goes wrong so its all or nothing
Bruiser zed being able to one shot anything but tanks while still being able get away with his low CD and an ability to tank the DMG is bullshit
Belveth, kayn, yone, K'sante etc are pretty bad with ridiculous kits that does everything for example and unfortunately there are more
@@gorkemaykut5230 That Zed remark reminds me of the time he was played a lot in the pro scene with blade of the ruined king, where he'd even kill tanks 1v1 xD
Short answer: roll back the jungle to how it was in seasons 8 and 9.
Long answer:
The thing about the contemporary (2020+) jungle is how just going yolo and full clear has non-existent risk anymore. Scuttle Crab's first spawn got delayed and its value greatly reduced, especially on the first spawn, so it lost its value as an objective, and now that there's two of them, the scaling jungler can just take the crab at the other side of the map and avoid a skirmish without giving away any resources for it.
In addition, sustain in the jungle is basically infinite. Whereas in the past you actually lost health clearing the jungle, nowadays everyone is at or close to 100% HP after a full clear, meaning chances of the invading jungler to make a play before a collapse is smaller and even an 1v1 win might not be enough. In addition, not having enough health and mana to gank after full clearing is no longer a thing, so full clears have no downsides.
In the past, the mere existance of a Shaco or a Lee Sin was enough for a weak early game jungler was enough for a player to switch their route and/or kite the camp into or away from a bush to avoid getting caught off guard. Nowadays the only thing junglers do with camps is kiting them towards the next camp they want to take.
The power farm meta has gotten so extremme even the likes of Elise and Lee Sin do full clears sometimes. At one point in season 11, Rek'sai was good, Shaco was average and every single other early game jungler in the game was anywhere between mediocre and unplayable. Lee Sin had a 42% win rate and Gragas wasn't even showing in the data.
My suggestion to address the issue are: Shift value from normal jungle camps into the scuttle crab, get crab to spawn sooner and on only one side of the map. Reduce the sustain from jungle camps more.
Less healing from camps means scaling junglers are more vulnerable to invades. More valuable crab that spawns sooner gives a strong incentive to not full clear. Having it be on only one side of the map force players to choose between skirmishing or giving away an objective.
Agreed. Rek'sai main here and during Season 11 I would do some variation of Red-Raptors-Blue or skip Krugs to secure scuttle and gank. Nowadays I can full clear and not care if I get scuttle or not. The amount of xp you get is so much that you don't ever need to skirmish for camps. Additionally, I can even double-scuttle consistently and it doesn't have any effect compared to other seasons. Playing an early game champ like Reksai feels pointless when the Yi just sits in his jungle until he gets bork and then gets a penta at the next dragon. Not to mention that even on Reksai who's been (sleeper) broken for the past eternity you're still likely to get heavily punished while counterjungling.
Jungle will always have problems, hence why Riot keeps changing it every few seasons to mix things up. The early seasons a jungler was almost a second support in terms of income and very few champions could viably even clear the jungle (jungle and support were a very unpopular lanes, though the meta was arguably the most healthy as every champion had their unique role in a team comp as opposed to the 4 to 5 damage treat teams we often see in the present day solo queue). We've also had a time when jungler were just perma ganking lanes, which was not a very fun experience for laners (nor for any jungler that fell behind). Presently camps have such a high up time and do so little damage that practically any champion can clear the jungle and you gain plenty of income without interacting much with the enemy team, allowing certain champions to easily scale into the lategame.
Yeah because it felt so good when the enemy jungle took your crab and was ahead of you for the rest of the game because he managed to take one monster from you at 3 minutes indeed very healthy
hyper pencil
The editing in this video was excellent, I busted out laughing at 6:28 with the "wasted" screen 🤣
That Sponsor Transition was damn smooth ^^
7:08 this transition made me think I was falling and I flung my cereal on the floor.
Actually, they are the best balanced, its just Riot doesn't understand balance as an overall concept, so hypercarries aren't very viable due to Riot being addicted to games ending at 20.
I love it when you use some background halo music 🙏
I LOVED that cute animation in the middle.
there is also a new problem creeping up. while buffing the starter items. you nerf lane bullies. you make it harder to kill someone. same goes for the durability update. a lane bully lost his power to put you into a dumbster wich have lead to buffs on for instance renekton. making him so overwhelming. that its no longer just a lane bully. no. now he has to scale. the whole thing of a lane bully falling off is a bit lost. hypercarries scale rather quickly or are strong from the beginning. (a lvl 1 kayle with a certain rune is really strong actually)
The level 1 kayle issue you just mentioned is because LT is just overpowered currently. It's an auto win button for 99% of level 1 fights
You really really can bully a hyper carry jungle out of the game in the same way as all of the other roles
12:17 I'm pretty sure I saw a kayle main destroying a darius pre-6
Do you have a vd about how catch-up mechanic works?
Because i still don't understand it and i think it's stupid.
That segue was CLEAN
I think, it depends of the champs design.
Some Hypercarries while becoming extremely strong in the late game, still maintain huge weaknesses and can be taken down quickly if misspositioned or cc'd.
And then you have champ like Kassadin, who turns into a tanky, jumping nuke.
Same thing with endless scaling champs.
You can kite Nasus, so he feels still fair in the late game, if you can keep him at a distance.
But Veigar has a insane op cc ring, all his Spells hit like trucks and his Ult becomes a point and click delete.
Bu he can be killed unlike some top laners
As a veigar you need to be aware of your surroundings and carefully position yourself so you don't get one shot by enemy assassin or some other toplaner with high mobility or some jungler with DMG deduction or nullification ability
Some toplaners are auto win especially if enemy team doesn't have a counter for them, Mundo for example can tank 2 turret shots while getting ganged by 5 people and just walk out like it's nothing after his job is done unless you have something that deals max HP percentage dmg
yeah you can kite nasus if he unbinds wither
nasus? fair late game? with 99% slow and reduced attack speed? xd?
@@egg3921 yes, in my opinion a single target slow is much more manageable than an aoe stun, that can also trap people.
@@gorkemaykut5230 veigar will almost always take atleast one with him, because his Ult alone scales extremely and is also point and click.
And with the huge abundance of tank counters and anti tank item, I really don't see mundo being a problem. Yes it noone in your team can damage a tank with neither their kit nore items, but how the fuck did you end up there?
That transition from hyper carries needing to get fed into Hello Fresh was absolutely clean mate, I very much enjoyed that. Keep it up mate, cheers!
Vars really worked hard to pull that HELLO-FRESH topic transition out his ass this time
Very smooth 🤣👍🏻
because I'm so early we need a "why no one plays Kassadin"
I kinda expected Vars to talk about making hypercarry champs stronger in early game in exchange for scaling less and being not as strong in late game. So like instead of that parabolic curve being y = 0.2x^1.4, make it y = 0.3x^1.22 instead (yes I did spend 2 minutes figuring out what curve Vars used in his vid)
Riot has actually been closing this gap to a certain extend over a larger period of time, and also for the reverse cases. e.g.: Early game champions like Renekton, Darius and Lee Sin currently have reasonable late game power now instead of truly falling off a cliff lategame like they did back when they first came out.
@@Dragonoid269 Darius is not a early game champion , if he gets 1 reset with his ult he will get a penta kill lol.
Is that background bgm from Fire Emblem: Engage?
I used to be otp kindred with 60% wr and I knew once kindred tf became s tier pick it will be nerfed to do ground. It was high risk high reward champion, but after series of nerfs it became unplayable. Instead of nerfing the item and making champion viable for another mythic they nerfed Kindred and made it B tier pick at best.
Vayne is indeed no longer the best scaling hypercarry in the game. Her range is too short, and her ult and passive too committal to yield a lategame benefit in an environment so fast paced, that she would be oneshotted by a single attack from the opposing mid, top, or jungler before she knew it. In terms of pacing, Seasons 6 and 7 were so much slower in fact, that Vayne had no problem kiting everyone and could theoretically 1v9 if the Vayne player was good and she had full build, crit or on-hit.
This and she’s been nerfed constantly against all other ADCs. Non stop nerfs on any patch she’s mentioned on for the last 5 seasons. The only time she gets a buff is if she gets a skin and that’s only for 1 or 2 patches before it’s reverted
Vayne can still be a pain in the ass against players who aren't familiar with her kit and play style l. 😅
Ngl, that Hello Fresh transition hit me out of no where. It was Fresh
Hypercarries are impossible to balance because the fundamental concept is that, when certain conditions are met, they always win. It's like exodia decks in Yugioh: they're either trash or insanely toxic and them being played on a consistent level competitively means there's something terribly wrong with the meta. The consequence of having an 'I win' button is that it can never be reliable, and the more serious you take a game the more important reliability becomes.
One chanp I find odd is not included in discussions of hypercarries is katarina.... Which she is. She is a hyoercarry that relies on resets. Her inherent delays make her too sloe and her lack of util make her too linear for conventional pure assassin who have stealth or i frames and some soft or hard cc.
She has a typical hypervarry lane wheere he rlaning phase os weak
That was a clean ad-read
wait but there is a champ who is very weak early game but doesn't carry nearly as hard as hyper carries, it is SHYVANA!!!
This has "who's that pokemon?!" energy
Nasus too!
1 easy solution to the Viego problem. Perma ban it. Hope that helps
Holy moly that segway, instant upvote
IMO Riot made a huge mistake when they pushed the pacing with more movement, then balancing it with shorter times to kill as they kept the same map. There's also a giant disparity between pro play and soloq, as there's no feasible way to communicate a engage on a hypercarry and the 1 second reaction time by your teammate (provided there is a reaction) might already have you killed.
It's also a huge gamble for games themselfes. Jungle Carries might be traded off by not ganking on your scaling teammates, but if your toplane Teemo runs it down against Cassio, Trynda, Kayle etc. then there has to be a massive difference in the rest of the team... unless you have another Hypercarry benefitting from a weak enemy itself. So if the trend goes on, it might turn into League of Hypercarries, as people won't want to play something that can't make the difference against a hypercarry once they're common on multiple roles/lanes.
i think, hypercarries can be balanced, but only through big or extreme external means which frankly is a challenge on it’s own
I think the fact that Hypercarries are a problem that always has to be kept in check is fine… as long as there are ways of more quickly ending the game while you’ve knocked them down. The natural counter to hypercarries is snowballing, and ending games *faster.*
Tbh hypercarries being much stronger in early game, especially in jungle, is one of the reasons why adc feels so bas to play as. Why do you want to suffer having 0 agency over the game until you have at least 3 items, being oneshotted by every assasin and needing a support and team who peels you when the team can get a hypercarry jungle or even top who doesnt need so much help and is guaranteed to scale sooner or later.
Even more in low-elo, where games are twice as long becuase people doesnt know how to finish games and everyone finish with almost full build and lv18
If youre useless until three items
YOU ARE THE HYPER CARRY.
From what I can tell adc is a bad role in low elo period (assuming you're not a smurf). There isn't enough team coordination to really make an adc work and the adc players themelves are typically going to position themselves in harms way and not attack move properly.
Came here for hypercarry info, left with wanting your "more fog-looking" fog of war. If you play D&D, it feels more like "Fog Cloud" rather than "Darkness"
what champion is a specialist?
“Magically turn into Jesus and whoop your entire team’s ass” LMAOOOOOOO
Didnt expect "Hello fresh" to sponsor you, in anycase tried it and its actully really good. I can recomend everything with chicken!
This kinda ties into an issue that I've noticed has gotten worse over the years: Lategame "balance".
It's all over the place. While early and midgame are the more important targets to finetune balance on... it feels like riot completely neglects to try and balance lategame.
At 5-6 items, it feels like nothing makes sense anymore. So many values start to get hard out of line at that point. Riot just has not balanced the game around that at all.
And to be honest, that is weird. The vast majority of players sit in elos where games regulary reach the 40+ minute mark, after all.
Something something ticking time bomb that keeps re-arming, something something infinite scaling champions.
Why do you say Vayne could be considered more of a mid game champ now?
That was smooth transition into a paid add tbh!
Noob adc here, is Vayne really a hypercarry? I just don't feel like I really have the means to outright 1v5 against most comps while fed within reason. Is a hypercarry just a champion who, when fed, can 1v5 *some* comps?
Vayne is one of the best hypercarries because late game she can easily take down 3-5 champs one at a time while dodging around and constantly disappearing. This makes it very difficult for anyone to hit her with anything. She's also once of the few ADCs who can afford to build some defense (JakSho and Terminus these days)
@@crispyquesadilla It's interesting looking back at this because the reason now I wouldn't think of Vayne as a hypercarry is not because she lacks the output, she definitely doesn't. These days, in my mind a hypercarry is a champion that will mow the lawn with your teeth if you don't focus them in a team fight. They can be helpless on their own, but 1 meat shield is all it takes. That's very different to how I thought about it before. Interestingly, I still struggle to see Vayne as a hypercarry, but because she excels in Duels, which is something that to my mind isn't true of a hypercarry
@@hxrl5838 She is good at dueling vs. short ranged or melee champs, which is why she works top. Early on she's too slow and doesn't have enough damage to get kills to keep her ult going so she can't 1v3. But once she has enough damage she scales up massively from 20 min - 35 min to where she can now 1v3 or 1v5 simply by dodging everything thrown at her. The only easy way to stop a hypercarry like Vayne, Yi, or Katarina is point and click CC which a lot of teams don't have. To me a hypercarry is just anyone who can chain kills, so usually its champs that get resets on a kill like Viego for example.
The idea of a solo carry kit in a team game alone speaks as to why Hypercarries are a fundamentally bad idea and should be reworked.
I thought Vars had already made a video over this? I could be wrong. If im not was it taken down?
No, he made one just about them, not why they're impossible to balance. Though they're pretty much the same
@@SylvainJoseGautier- i see thanks for telling me
@@hanjiisbestgirl1484 No problem!
I mean it feels as simple as this a team game so hyper carries are kinda naturally antithetical to the genre. Its not fair if one person gets to take out your whole team by being a stat stick, which is more or less every hyper carry. Especially in a game with so many variables its a fools errand to try and hit any sweet spot because of how thatll effect every other aspect of the game
But not one person on earth would want to play a teamgame without the possibility to 1v9 since at this point its basically animated coinflip since 90% of the players in the game are random.
9:20 wait, Lillia is a hypercarry?
He had me at getting fed.
Another problem of Hyper Carries is that they alter the game in a way that it is not supposed to be.
League is a team based game, but outside of pro leagues the game is MOSTLY solo. Properly coordinating with your team is hard af, so everyone just has to make the right decisions and try to not step on each other's toes. Very, very, rarely you see any sort of theory crafting a comp in draft, everyone just picks their main or counterpick the opponent and that's it.
But Hyper Carries are MEANT to be played with the team. Because their win condition is so definitive, your team has to protect your Hyper Carry until they can 1v9, and the other team is constantly trying to shut them down. And in any meta hyper carries dominate you see both teams protecting their respective hyper carries while trying to shut down the other one. There were times when EVERY LANER was supposed to give gold priority to the Twitch or Master Yi jungler - that's how bad it gets.
So hyper carrier force the game to be played around them, it no longer matters to take objectives, the priority is the power spike, and once you do it, protect the carry. Not only that sorta of meta is boring to watch in pro play (outside of the people who masturbates to Vayne 1v5 pentakill compilations), but in SoloQ it's basically impossible. Not only you have to trust the entire match in one dude you never met, but that dude is completely dependent on the rest of the team being his servants.
First?!
Thank you for the content, appreciate it. GG WP!
i like how you point out lillia as a hypercarry as well, the one problem with her is that her early game power is way too good. you can full clear and be done at 3:15 so you can quick gank and make it for crab spawn if you keep q ms and can pretty much 1 shot it with q e w smite. if your contested lvl 4 you win every matchup except for like graves/hecarim. only problem i've found playing lillia is the subpar midgame, if you're not like 3/0 with early ROD or liandys, you start getting 1 shot if your not careful, but then your a late game monster with like 600 ap 3.5k hp and 700ms zooming through everyone and bonking adc for 1k with w.
Nah man you dont want to get to late game with Kindred, she plays more like reksai, invading fighting etc bc she has so much early dmg.
Of course she isnt bad late but if you play her like kahrthus or for late you are playing her wrong.
Same with Bel'veth btw.
I'm unsure about includin kindred as an hypercarry, kindred is the complete opposite of the curve at 6:05 , they're made for dueling and are really strong forom early to mid game, but fall off later during teamfight by just being a weaker adc with a really strong ult (marks don't really matter, only 4 and 7 mark powerspike actually do anything)
I think you dont really know kindred
@@seperrallo he should have been there during release Kindred
@@seperrallo Care to elaborate ?
@@jeyna8243 Certainly. There are many things to consider. Let's start with the build and a very average game, so 7 marks + 2 items from AS (trinity & wits end) = 2 attacks per second (with buff q) very good considering that all the items you build (kraken excluded but optional) give Hp, damage on hit, armor and magic resistance. For high damage output but with really high resistance for a high mobility marksman. And this high mobility coupled with the fact that 10 marks means that only Caitlyn has more range than you (permanently) allows you to position, chase and stay in a safe zone very easily. without considering that a well-placed r will make only you immortal by making good use of the terrain (for example using the ultimate before jumping a short wall and leaving the "living space" only to you, but it would be enough (against a marksman in 1v1) to press R and wait until it's about to expire to use E and have an almost certain execution! If it wasn't clear, each kindred marks boosts damage on missing health, current health, attack speed and range. Practically everything that every adc needs to do its job (spending money). Kindred just needs to have a decent macro and familiarity with champ and it has these things for free and (almost) without limits. I remember that someone on reddit had estimated the value in gold of each kindred marks , around 350/370 each. It's not little at all. Probably only nilah can really counter kindred in the more advanced stages of a game (always considering a 1v1). Also talking about how incredibly powerful the R is in team fight is useless or how this ability can easily bait the smite on a target (dragon or baron) ensuring it immediately after the end completely removing those 50/50 situations. This champion is a union of Hyperscaling and incredible utility (in the right hands because screwing everything up is just as easy and a wrong R makes you lose the game). Please - otp kindred, 850k mastery points, 64%wr
@@seperrallo Well, I do main kindred but perhaps I just play them wrong lol.
its honestly insane how the meta is for hyper carries right now. A viego has less agency and carry potential then an ammumu does, and it feels like the carry role has the least amount of reasources in order to actually carry
?????
@@chubbyanemone696 tanks are disgusting rn
@@bullettime1116 a New tank meta has started?
@@bullettime1116crazy how yall need tanks to be disgusting every single patch or else you have nothing to complain about
@@chubbyanemone696 nah it's just tanks are good rn. A tank meta is when everyone is tanky
I want that "Hello Fresh" buff to my Nafiri champion. 😂
ad skip 2:23
Tryndamere right now is not really a hypercarry, unless you get a gold lead other champs will just kite you down. At a certain point all he's good for is splitpushing
Wait wtf i know you for smore than 2 years alread that felt like half a year
I've seen champion Mains complain about stuff for Buffs/Changes (Yone Mains crying for buffs from low win rate, Soraka mains making Cafe Cuties Auto a croissant), but is it Pick Rate or Win Rate that makes them decide to buff champions?
Essentially they look at a combination of pick, win and ban rate in various elo brackets as indications of champions being strong/weak. Some champions are also expected to sit at a lower/higher win rate than other though. If Azir and Ryze are ever above 50% wr they will likely be considered too strong already, whilst Ahri and Oriana can easily sit at 52% without it being considered a problem.
talon does not know how to swim so you only push him under 1 time but kayle knows how to swim so you gotta keep drowning her.
Honestly why should anyone try to balance hypercarries? Their whole point of existence is being monsters when untouched, so if a team manages to protect and peel forcthe kogmaw, they get rewarded for it. If the enemy team manages to break through that by great fighting, good frontlining or an assassin or bruiser pulling off a great flank, they should get the w too.
Thats what I love about that. I highly prefer that over an ezreal spamming q until he is comfortable
so it's not a hypercarries problem, it's a jungle problem.
"on a rare occasion a vayne top" 💀
simple solution to nerf karthus jungle because of how ungodly broken he is. remove his bonus monster damage on Q or up the mana cost. this ability is supposed to be used to melt the back line minions or last hit minions anyways. not to spam the living fuck out of jungle monsters with no downside
I like the Diversity of the meta but its fucked how fast games are now. I understamd why Riot made games faster but it destoryed the game.
Vayne being a midgame champ isnt a new phenomenon though and shes generally tended to fall off as the game goes really long compared to safer adcs even at the highest level.
While my game knowledge may be a bit out of date I suspect thats a continuation of the trend rather than something new caused by a more hypercarry favoring game.
Ksante having a hard time getting close. Yeeeeeeeah, suuuuuure.
3:28 "...often being significantly more vulnerable in the first 10 or 20 minutes of the game" AND THERE YOU HAVE IT. 75% of games are over by then. no wonder the role feels so shit in soloq.
Why everyone plays samira next
The biggest issue is the basic fact in League that no matter what you do, there is no real way to make the opponent weaker. You can pull ahead of them, but their gold will always increase, no matter what. If Yi fullclears and dies, he still has the gold and exp from full clearing and you can't do anything about it. So it doesn't matter if they are 0/10, if they somehow manage to hit their items, they go from useless to a big problem in no time
The power level of the characters in a league of legends match trends upwards over time across the board. Slowing your opponent down IS making them weaker compared to everyone else in the game. You kill a player toplane, they don't just give you gold, they miss the gold and experience from all the minions they don't kill while they're dead. Same with the jungle: the longer a jungle camp stays alive and unclaimed the more gold that costs the jungler in their clears since that pushes back the next spawn of that camp longer and longer.
In your example of "If yi fullclears and dies" absolutely: You killed him on his time, a point where he loses the least from dying. If you kill yi at the START of his fullclear rather than the end of it then he loses hundreds of gold in delayed camp respawns. Hell, if you kill the yi at the end of his fullclear, you can take a neutral objective since the enemy team will be missing their jungler and thus can't contest you with smite.
@@kevingriffith6011 a 0/10 Yi with 4 items will murder you just as hard as a 10/0 Yi with 4 items. That's the reason I'm trying to point out. It's not a complain, it's a description. No, you cannot make an opponent weaker. You can be ahead of them, but their individual strength will always go up with time, no matter what you do. Which makes hypercarries a constant problem, because if you destroy the Vayne and set her behind, if someone else on her team can be strong enough to not let you end the game before she gets her items, you are still screwed because she got her items and reached her hypercarry status that you tried to avoid
Killing a top laner and denying waves does NOT make him weaker. It makes you stronger. They still get passively stronger all the time, just at a much slower pace than you. But they aren't weaker
@@Pyrrha_Nikos weaker is relative anyways, if you freeze a toplane hypercarry from their wave for 6 minutes then they are weak no matter which way you slice it
@@Pyrrha_Nikos There's a huge difference between 4 items at 15 minutes and 4 items at 30 minutes. A 0/10 yi will explode just as fast as his target will, but Yi won't have the benefit of something like Zhonya's, GA, Death's Dance or the like to make it that much harder for Yi to kill them.
The problem you're talking about isn't restricted to hypercarries: The problem you're talking about is damage creep, the fact that *anyone* building lethality can one-shot a six item squishy while behind 5k gold in items.
@@bullettime1116 Weak, yes. Weaker, no. If you freeze a Kayle for 6 minutes, anything she got during those 6 minutes is still there, and she will have it until the game ends, which still puts pressure on you to win faster than she can get her exp and items, because she will 1v9 if you don't
13:50 k'sante would disagree
That's because we don't have point n click cc anymore :D
"Vulnerable for the first 10-15 minutes of the game"
Laughs in Vayne top
I just think that everyone should do less damage, and hyper-carries, assassins, and slayers shouldn't be able to melt tanks like butter
"You can CC them!"
"Ok, let me go walk my lumbering ass with massive hit box over to that Vayne while she shoots you dead, dodge rolls away from me, then shoots me so I can apply some CC for you. Oh, oops, by getting close enough I now have 2hp left and after the CC ends she kills me too."
@@sirbobulouswoops! Vayne punted me, a tank, away with a crossbow!
Welcome to the fucking botlane, where all out champs are supposed to be hypercarries, but fuck you if your team decides that you aren't
I think bounties were a bad idea.
Yep, it means it's a sum 0 game as long as you get the shutdown at some point and benefit one shot champions who doesn't matter if they went 0 5 in early game.
Hyper carry shpuld not be stat checkers. It should be you can 1v9 if you got the skills not just the stats.
when jax bideo?