"Battle" Tanks: The Class That Disappeared | League of Legends
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- Опубліковано 4 вер 2023
- While the tank class is divided into the vanguard and warden subclasses nowadays, back then there used to be a group of tanks known for fighting more than engage or protection. Today we're gonna talk about Battle Tanks in League of Legends, and discuss what happened to them.
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#LoL #Tank #leagueoflegends - Ігри
imagine not having the mobility to get close, while also not having the durability to take more than 5 seconds of the enemy adc or jungler attacking you without exploding, that's what happened.
Yea I'm really tired of the "tanks do a milion dmg while take none" narrative while there is so much anti-tank stuff in the game.
@@wariat71tank deal a fuck ton of damage, and you can kill them, but they still do too much damage
@@Sloth81194 no they don't. They do a lot of dmg early because they need to in order to apply any pressure before they get items. They still need to do dmg mid to late because if they wouldn't everybody would just walk past them and go straight for the carry (in other games tanks can also dish out a lit of dps). Honestly, with so much counterplay against tanks (sunderer, eclipse, lord dom, botrk, kraken, liandry, cleaver, void staff, serylda, guinsoo and all the %health and tru damage in champ's kit) you talking about tanks being op just means that you propably need to choose your champs and builds better and also learn to exploit their disadvantages (damage isn't everything in this game).
@@Sloth81194 Like Wariat said. There are so many tank killing items in the game now, and most of the champs that come out have some version of % hp damage in their kit. Most tanks wont build any form of damage. When you look at tanks in general, most of them are only dealing base damage on every ability. When the ADC has 1k hp and one Maokai Q does 180 damage after resists, it seems like alot. However, if you have lifesteal, you get that health back in 2-5 autos. You have a support who shields you, heals you, or peals the tank off you and now you just have an HP wall to beat up. Bruisers are so strong because they normally have some form of healing in their kit, or build it for synergy. Or, build BotRK since they are vs a tank. In the end, There are multiple ways to deal with tanks in league, and tanks have no counter play to Bruisers. Tanks are only as good as the teammates who deal damage when the Tank starts CCing. Otherwise, they have very little to contribute to a fight. The reason we DON'T see crazy tanks like we used to is because they've moved the Meta away from it intentionally. It was too boring to watch in Esports. Two tanks throwing full rotations at eachother in the toplane for 3 minute fights, all while farming waves, and in the end they both walk away.
@@Sloth81194 Its called BASE DAMAGE, Tank abilities tend to have shitty scaling to compensate. Its why theyre horrible damage wise lategame while everyone else starts to murder them in 3 seconds assuming everyone is even in gold and exp
what if you
wanted to play tank
but riot said
percent max health damage everywhere
percent max health TRUE damage
@@andrerossi720 + healing based on damage
They need to make MITIGATIONS work like they do in Smite, and start putting a mitigation on tank abilities. For those who dont know how mitigation works in Smite, it reduces ALL DAMAGE (including percent and true damage). This is still how it works today, and it does well, but back in the day I remember that u could stack enough mitigation to survive executes (executes did 9999 true damage, but this could almost be reduced to nothing with the right build). Thankfully, they are not that powerful, but tanks are more meaningfully tanky with the existence of this stat.
+ divine sunderer because it's funny
@@MrShnardSmite in general handled the incredible burst meta problem a lot better than league imo, nerfing the amount of stats on every item helped mitigate the problem of mages/ADC’s getting every stat they need from 3 very gold efficient items while also toning down the stat efficiency of tank items(with a few hiccups, to be fair) helped back the game down into a more grounded experience without making life hell for any particular class, with a few adjustments later. It got boring playing the three meta tanks every single game in solo 🤷
The main problem is tempo. The game is pushed to be so burst oriented and fast that the identities of the classes end up getting lost. Sure nowadays there's more ways to deal with a tank, but nowadays everything kills everything super fast.
People think that taking too long to kill a tank is a bad thing but it should take longer to kill EVERYTHING. Burst damage used to be an assassin's trait
Someone give this man a beer 🍺 I completely agree with you
It's also supposed to be the realm of the burst mage, not that a differentiator like that has much meaning any more
Hashinin had it right. Assassin should have to hit a FULL combo to one shot. They only have to hit 1 or 2 skills to do that atm.
@@sammigs34Definitely
It would be more satisfying than landing two buttons and maybe an auto attack
@@sammigs34even more extreme of a thought, assassins used to have to *wait* for enemies to be low to go in; one shot ting a full hp target was a privilege only afforded if you had double digit kill leads.
As an old swain main before his rework, I felt a lot like a battle tank pretending to be a battle mage.
after 3 items I swear his damage just stopped increasing, but boy did adding a tank item 4th go miles
I always wondered why Sion was not made into a juggernaut. I mean it's pretty much into his title, "The Undead Juggernaut". It really grinds my gears since I used to main him with an emphasis on.... being a juggernaut. Now it seems like to play league nowadays it's more on who can deal damage faster with the mentality of "he can't kill me if he's dead", all while riot keeps adding more damage items when just a few years back they claimed they were cutting back the damage. If anything, the durability update was more of a band-aid fix to an already increasingly hard to balance game. With the amount of damage nowadays anything with less than 200+ resists and 3k health is paper.
I always have looked at him has a tank/juggernaut with sometimes assassin
@@darkumineru1681 Yea but if you build him one and compare it with the other juggernauts he's sorely lacking. Even as a tank all he has is that shield that instantly pops late game.
I have the same issue with Alistar. It used to be he had an ad increase on his ult, now it's just dmg reduction and cc cleanse that, while useful, can be totally ignored by waiting it out since he has no dmg. In lore, he used to fight in Noxus gladiator fights. Thematically, he should be a juggernaut as well. Rell too, iirc.
It just feels wrong when something that looks so heavy, hits as much damage as a wet noodle.
i mean you're not wrong, you can see this with aatrox building eclispe or draktar on him isn't normal but riot likes him cuz it makes views, when a random look at a match at world and see one guy tanking the whole team without doing anything but spamming Q, without dying AND make TONS of dmg it makes them wanna play him, they call he last changement a nerf but in fact its a huge buff cuz one way of counter this type of aatrox is to build armor but now it deals magic dmg sooo... i hate the way league turned the past few years its really "we only like a certain type of champion to be played so we make changes around them so it benefits them well"
@@roipipi5898 I get that but the problem with that is they're just gonna keep escalating the craziness with items and champs with that kind of direction, which means they'll have to update the others to the same unhealthy level as those items and champs instead of nerfing them. They're essentially making their own problem by power creeping the rest. They need to tone down the craziness, not add more to it.
100% agree but they won't because it means accept that they did something wrong that players have been telling them since s6/7 + it's more understandable for a random/ bad player to see a one shot than an actual thoughtful play, which further means potentially more money @@blacklight1104
It’s obnoxious getting shredded by dudes with duskblade and untargetability whenever they get a takedown. Items for tanks in this game basically provide stats. Carries all get a ton of utility. It’s backwards. The Carrie’s should get the stats, the tanks the utility.
i still think taking an assassin item and giving it untargetability on takedown is terrible game design. untargetability is way too powerful to give to any champion, and the condition to meet it is just what assassins are supposed to do in the first place. the invisibility on takedown was nasty too, but at least there was some form of counterplay in predicting their movement. not sure why they thought replacing an obnoxious passive with an even worse one was a good idea, but here we are
I wouldn't mind Duskblade if it only activated when the person using it landed a kill, but the fact it works on assists, and has no cooldown, is ridiculous. Even worse is that it's gone from making people invisible (something that is already a pain to deal with), to just making them invincible and immune to everything. I really hope it gets either reworked or removed, because it is such an unfair item to fight against.
@@kamikazelemming1552would suck if you were an assassin and a lux killsteals the guy that was gonna die to your ignite and you die because you don't have the untargetability
@@kamikazelemming1552 didnt they nerf the cooldown already?
lol at Duskblade.
The big damage assassin item.
That is... best at killing tanks and bruisers..?
"Execute damage" sounds so nice and assassin~y. But riot doesnt seem to realize that dealing massive bonus damage to low health targets does barely anything against squishies(Who die to a fart at low health), but a lot against tanks and bruisers who are often designed to fight at low health and are at lower health for a significantly longer amount of time.
I would want to see a meta where tanks are strong but not thx to items who every one could build and be valiuble
Welcome to my cult. Here we talk about the concept of item restrictions, where with the small price of removing off meta builds we create a more creative and diverse game(diverse because you can create many more interesting items if you know that they cannot be poached. Also based on ability scaling you can simultaneously create early, mid and late game fighters/tanks/assassins etc without it being mandatory that, for example, all tanks fall off late because the base damages don't keep up and all the enemies have finally invested in anti-tank measures).
If you want something less extreme we have a second idea: tanks gain more health/armour/Mr from items, fighters gain more hp/ad/ap, assassins gain ad/lethality etc making poaching mathematically less efficient though still possible
If even this makes you worry and you want a more straightforward solution, welcome to season 4, where no tank item was good on its own but, like ADC scaling(ad,as,crit amplify each other) you could buy the just-health item (but you still needed resistances), the just-armour item that was actually good Vs physical damage and the Mr item that had a passive that scaled with health but provided no health on its own (look at the old force of nature: it gave mr and ms and the passive was health regen based on health) which meant that you had to invest in multiple tank items to become a tank
@@manolismarinakis8444 totally agree
@@manolismarinakis8444 Some tanks already have resistance scalings, this change will kill build diversity, but problem will be fixed, by creating another one. Is it worth it? The problem is not many champs use every offensive stat well, but any champ can use bonus resistances well, especially with large hp pool (tanks) or lots of shields\lifesteal (bruisers), but the more resistance items you build the less value you get from diminishing returns.
Thanks for shitty made durability update, these diminishing returns come a lot faster, have they just reduce damage overall, it would be much better. And now there are same stupid amounts of damage everywhere, like in s11, but all have more stats, which invalidates tanks
@manolismarinakis8444 no thats complitly shit cuz removing off meta builds is soooooooooo bad for ppl cuz it is sooooooooooooo much fun to have the
better way to make similar thing WITHOUT REMOVING off meta is just making simple things like: aatrox should build one(first) item bruser and maybe second bruser item too
and then go tanky items like some shielding or omen or something SIMILAR TANKY ITEMS
darius used to do something like this(he was playing like trinity>frozen heart or some resist items and then something else same with aatrox)
but now we see aatrox go full lethality when he should be bruser specifically DRAIN TANK
drain tanks are healing champions that most of the time heal from DMG dealt like aatrox and warwick
they should TANK because they are HEALING so for example they have 2k hp BUT they heal 1k hp so they actually have 3k hp so they can be "TANKY"
so just by giving them HP scaling and maybe base dmg or a lot lower scaling on AD but make it FULL AMOUNT of AD not just bonus so they would rather go for bruser items because they dont get as much dmg from lethality items and its not optimal build
so just by changing their scaling and adding HP scaling to brusers you could easly make brusers and tanks a lot better champs and a lot easier to balance
@@daboss4318 my first idea would be a huge overhaul that, even if some people think on its own would be a killjoy, would bring many more good things to the game (all in theory, of course).(that's why I said welcome to my cult 😛)
The third "idea" that is more realistic and close to having a feasible implementation depends on items not being so well rounded. If you are a fighter and want to poach a tank item it is not worth taking a full Mr item(towers exist, someone will be ad) so an item with Mr and hp is more appealing. Also if the full Mr item has a passive that scales with armour then it will be weaker in your sterak's/ black cleaver build than it would be on a tank
5:59 That was a pretty good rocket jump predict by Cho'gath. Activated it before her windup even started.
He was in their head. That was a PERFECT prediction.
It happened once to me, long time ago, that a tristana player tried to jump over me trying to flank/escape me. And I had cast ulty on her...
Fast Food snack in the air.
Eh, battle tanks rely on their insane durability to allow them leniency in fighting with little inhibition, but now there’s too many ways to counter tanks, and most of the new champs that come out have some way of dealing with them through % damage, % resistance shred/pen, true damage, etc.
Nowadays it’ rarer for a champ to come out without a form of anti-tank stats in their kits.
That's the funny part, you'll still get people complaining about tanks and their statlines(high durability and high base damage/scalings), but on the opposite end the spectrum, there's so many items/champion abilities to invalidate their mainline stats that tanks have no choice but to essentially play as bruiser with CC, even going as far as to take brusier items into their respective builds just to keep up with the gamestate, the damage mains perpetuated the very problem they complain about! 😂
Even chogath arguably the fkrst top lane tank had anti tank in his kit but it wasent always that way.
true, but its still not fun to be smacking an 11000 hp chogath with 300 armor, 300 magic resist and a gargoyel stoneplate for like 40 seconds.
What about skarner
i disagree on that last part, in the last 20 champs i'd say only 6 have it, and pretty much all of them are fighters of some kind which usually have some form of innate tank-busting due to their poor access to penetration and shred
Considering the amount of overloaded carries with built in self heal and multiple dashes, I don't really think the battle tank idea is problematic at all. I main Naut, and from my perspective it feels like I'm simply gimping myself by playing a champion like him. Why would you pick a champion with strengths and weaknesses when you can pick a champ that can do everything with almost no drawbacks?
To be fair, naut with a good adc is unbeatable.
@@ethanclarke4127 Makes no difference when it's impossible to carry games as bot lane.
I usually don’t reply to comments since most are made by silver players that simply don’t understand the game, but this one doesn’t sit with me. You main strongest support in the game, so the strongest role along with the strongest champion and you still complain? Only one that can match naut in terms of power rn is alistar that is just worse than naut and that role is basically a better jungle role because you’re not forced to pve most of the time. Sorry to tell you this but you’re doing something wrong if you think your champ or role is weak.
@@rastkokardasevic3537 First off, I think that is a very narrow minded way of looking at the game. Only 1 measly % of the player base is diamond and above. I'm gold 1. Viewing the game through a pro's lens is useless to me, cause It's simply not my reality, and won't ever be. Sure, I can learn from them, but I'm never gonna "understand the game" like you put it. That goes for the ENORMOUS majority of the player base as well. So what perspective matters most in reality? Mine or yours?
That being said, I understand perfectly what you're saying. I'm sure it's true in high ELO. Nautilus is by no means weak in my rank either, that's why I play him. He is however completely at the mercy of how his team does. Sure, if you're some cheating smurf you can probably go full AP and dominate, but who cares about that. I only play duo with my mate, and that's the only reason why I play support. I'd bet money that I'd rise a few divisions immediately if I'd played some 1v9 carry in any other lane instead.
@@JustinSeizure You seem to think carries can just insta win the game because their kits are overloaded. Let me tell you that the game isn't as black or white as you think it is. You're gonna have to fight players also playing carries, and ppl playing anti-carries and bad matchups. The balancing team is not the best but they aren't completely incompetent. If a champion has an overloaded kit, it loses something somewhere. Saying "if I played carries I would win" is naive, even if it might be true. Because it can be true for other reasons, maybe you specifically as a player is better on carries but the average player isn't and some would climb much faster if the just played naut supp. What I'm trying to say is, if you feel you'd be better on carries then play them and climb, if you just want to have fun, then stick to naut, but don't just start blaming champ design. (I wish battletanks were a thing and with champs like Irelia, jax, etc. they would be fine)
The main reason people hate "tanks" is because so many non-tank champs i.e. Sylas, Yone, Katarina have so much damage that they can build tank and still one-shot you. Tank items are broken, but not on tanks.
Or because sion and malphite are unkillable if you dont have the right champion. Some champions wont even get trough their shield with a full combo
@@alex2005zyou are building wrong then
@@ethanclarke4127 because my build really matters 10 minutes into the game right?
Oh yes
Diana jungle that went sunfire as 1st item
So i thought "atleast she won't do any damage"
I was so fucking naive 😂
@@alex2005z literaly just pick any mage
Sunderer, Bork, and so many ways of making tanks useless is what happened :p
Witch is okay becouse the tanks can 2 tap me while takeing no damage so haveing ways to damage them is resonable but both there damage and thoes items are not good or fun for the game
Sion main here , yep , i build my "op secret build" every game on mid and since my Q has 225% ad ratio lvl 5 and 135% ad lvl 1 , i just buy serrated dirk and take over the lane if not a shitty matchup
This is only a issue to cho and sion who heavily rely on health stacking. Build bork against malph and the 700 armor will nulify bork and sunderer
@@TrevorianTheTemplar I mean, if you're getting 2 tapped, you're probably a ranged champ, so its your fault for being caught up
@doglopmaz you realise there are ways to deal with amor stacking too right? Eclipse, black cleaver and mortal reminder and even sunderer as well
no matter how tanky the TANK is vayne W just wins
at the very least riot nerfed that W.
And Liandry’s, and the amount of Max % dmg in champions kits.
@@MarianaBello-fq3hxby how much? Another 2 extra auto sets?
weird. its almost like the ADC DESIGNED TO BE A TANK BUSTER beats tanks in the late game.
And BORK + ldr combo
One corner Riot has backed themselves into with Tanks, is that if you want to see a Tank outside of a Support role it needs to have one of 3 things:
-form of %health damage (i think the most common and best fix to this issue)
-busted scaling ratios (starts off complete garbage and statchecks you with less gold and items, then falls off later, how fun!)
-heavily inflated base dmg numbers (express tutorial on how to create a champ that can't lose a lvl 1-3 matchup, and after that has to use items as literal crutches)
All of these things serve the purpose of giving the tank a way to retaliate and properly lane, rather than just be enemy laner's post-game dmg padding target dummy and struggle with basic cs-ing. If a tank has none of these, he quite frankly cannot go anywhere but Support (ex. as much as I'd love to play Braum top, he lacks the damage to do pvp and pve, and "attack speed on hit" is a meme streamer build).
What good does having amazing defensive capabilities (what most players seem to want: Tanks being tanky) do, if the enemy can just ignore and outheal your negative dmg (also what most players seem to want: Tanks not doing damage for being tanky)?
Let's buff damage of their abilities vs minions and monsters then? Congrats on promotion from Training Dummy to PvE bot! Now you can steal your ADC's cs more effectively, because that won't move you out of Support.
Surely then, the solution must be for Tanks to have insane CC durations? Nope, players would scream and shout that the sentient target dummy is somehow fighting back via proxy of their teammates doing the killing while you can't move.
Buff stats on tank items? Surely there would never be a situation where non-tanks would poach tank items and use them 10x better than tanks ever could (20 quadrillion changes to Sunfire come to mind, with more recent "offender" being Jak'sho), just to nerf tanks who weren't overperforming with these items as a result and leave the abusers untouched!
Maybe place some item restrictions on classes then (at least in ranked), so Riot can actually balance them with the respective classes in mind? No, suddenly there would be a very vocal minority outraged on how "you can't have fun anymore" with AP Garen, AD Veigar or Enchanter Miss Fortune, so obviously we can't sacrifice funny and wholesome off-meta builds for the sake of ENTIRE GAME'S BALACNCE.
So... do we just shove all of them into the Support role, nerf everything but survivalbility, anger and alienate the tank playerbase and call it a day? What a way to kill off an entire class that would be.
There's not a single day about a DPS champ crying on [insert forum] about how a Tank solokilled them in a long, drawn out 1v1 fight, without dying in the process.
At this point the entire Tank class would need one of those older class reworks, which would probably result in tank players being nerfed, yet somehow silver screaming about the boogeyman of "Tank meta" came back and that "ADC is bad again". I can't even remember when was the last time where ADC wasn't hands down the most impactful role in the game, and Riot has no plans in changing that because pro play.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
"But what about X, Y or Z?"
Exceptions, there of coruse are exceptions in all things. Just remember they are EXCEPTIONS that need some correction (cough cough KSANTE).
Rant over, like comment share and subscribe to the blog.
I miss the "first" Maokai rework. I think they removed the saplings landing damage (though that may have been a later patch), and made it so that his Ult wasn't placed but always surrounded Maokai. It led to a playstyle very specific to Maokai that was ultra satisfying. There's no champions that exist that scratch that same itch anymore.
missing old Maokai is like having an itch beneath my bark. I love what he does now, as I love that he's like the best catcher in the game, but it's not what Maokai was
Also tanky and deal loads of damage is literally the point of juggernauts. and champs like mundo have a perma slow 100% maxhp heal cc shield that can be perma up %hp damage high range poke that slows for half it's cooldown and he gets 2 titanic hydra passives on his e so he get 500-600 ad with like 3-4 items.
Started playing Maokai on release and instantly fell in love with him, back then you could play him in literally any role but ADC.
AP Midkai shut down slippery champs like Talon, Ezreal, and LeBlanc with the targeted root, you could fill a bush with saplings and pop champs like Teemo out of stealth with your Q, sometimes 1-shotting them with enough AP and saplings, putting the tree in the jungle let you spam skills with impunity thanks to blue buff, and with his CC and tankiness, he made an excellent support
I miss og Maokai and battle tanks in general. Jungling Maokai and Nautilus were a blast. I called them gank tanks alongside Amumu and Zakk. Their strong engage and cc made ganking a breeze, especially if you were communicating well with the laners. I was once called Raid Boss Maokai and hated his rework, especially losing that sweet sweet ultimate. Oh well, the game has evolved and I've moved on to other games, but still watch league content because it's interesting.
New maokai carried me to gold.
if no one can tank for even fk 5 sec how can you have battle tanks? tanks cant tank so they just dont exist
Jg naut was always fun for me as a game long jg main but it was something I wouldn't ever dare to pick first because of how easily the duelist invaders could punish even before they nerfed his clear into the dirt.
Tanks are great because it lets other roles actually have a chance to do their rotations and plays. Everyone gets to play. When there’s so much burst only one person plays
I think Singed is also an interesting case in that his pressure often comes from avoiding fights/being hard to force into a fight, but once he is in a fight, his combat-style has a great deal of similarities to the archetype
Can Singed peel?
@@MangaGamify Its not his primary goal, but his Fling is quite fantastic for peeling a Diver or Assassin off of his backline if the situation calls for it (Though he often is torn between this and going for an engage/dive attempt of his own)
4:13 I see Vars never faced the horror of full AP Alistar.
Man I’ve been playing Chogath support and it’s so fun. Just walking up an eating baron when the enemy where fighting it and them unable to stop me has been my highlight so far
My favorite champs to play back in the day were Maokai and Sejuani (pre rework for both), also Cho'Gath. I was sad when they were changed. I'll still play Maokai his impact in fights now is just different. It used to be you killed people now it is you annoyed people until they died. Cho'Gath isn't as good because every champ having a dash makes his Q much less reliable than it used to be.
@@0xCaera Yea she isn't bad but for some reason I like to play her full ap since the rework and just 1 shot people. I try playing her tank and feel borderline useless if my team doesn't help though.
Like honestly just give chogath ability size scalin if your gona make him big. Its just a hinderance.
@@0xCaera Yea she's good at 1v1 but without another melee she can only reliably lockdown a single person in a team fight before needing to get out of the fight or die. Unless you have a big enough lead to be up by 1 or 2 items on the enemy carries. Then she still gets to just steamroll them while they tickle her.
As a tank main, I would be completely okay with dealing much less damage if it meant there was less true/%hp damage in the game.
I'm not saying I want another tank meta, not at all. I just want "focusing the tank" to be the throw/troll it used to be.
AMEN
Hey Vars, you mention how the durability update was good for tanks but I don't remember this being the case. I'm pretty sure adc and other sustain damage dealers benefitted the most, as well as squishy characters, since everyone got a flat hp and resistance increase, which inherently has the most value on characters with little to begin with. Maybe you were thinking of the tank mythic rework?
All tanks dropped winrate dramatically and needed huge buffs.
I think he refers more because of all the resistance scaling things, they nerfed the runes that gave % armor/Mr and some tanks, at least I remembered that
my god, Maokai had an amazing ult, wish they'd bring that ult back
As an avid tank cho and sion main, I agree a lot with this video and how I've always viewed my two biggest mains. Especially cho since he lacks any mobility which is actually rare for a tank, so I've always had a more brawling playstyle with them, to the chagrin of my friends.
One thing I will say is the mythic item changes will surely be interesting for me.
On the one hand I love heartsteel it is so fun to play, and it allowed me to have some goofy games in the past. One where I got my record 13.5k health on Chogath with ocean soul and i had to carry vs a team with very little inherent tank busting, it was great. On the other hand heartsteel is just not healthy for game balance so I hope with its removal (since I doubt they will even attempt to make it a legendary) they will compensate by nerfing some of the sources of %hp damage in the game.
They won't but I hope they do.
good comment, but heartsteel is really bad, this item since it's release was never good, that's why it was never nerfed, only in aram
@@serg0470 my issue with heartsteal isn't that it's super op, I mean I build the item every damn game practically. I said it wasn't healthy (ironically) bc it's inherently a very binaric item. Either you have a team that can deal with that mondo amount of health or not, granted the options for dealing with said health are numerous so it's rare their is nothing and enemy can do as a team.
The other thing it giga scales all health scaling in the game more than I think they were ever intended to, like chogath, mundo, sunfire, titanic, demonic, etc. I've had several games where a single demonic purchase got me close to 300 ap.
My issue isn't so much this item is giga op, bc statistically it just isn't, but more so it's not a healthy item for the game overall and keeping infinite stacking (even if it's just health) as a champ only mechanic rather than something purchasable as an item is overall a good thing. A single champ is easier to balance than an item that everyone can purchase imo.
@@ethanm2926it needs the 70% reduction for ranged champions, but otherwiseit is a really fair item in current meta.....it makes games slower and I love it. Only item that does that too
@@ethanm2926 you have a fair point, but I don't think that it's that much of a binary item, he just gives flat health basically, it's like snowballing items but for tanks who wants to try to carry a bit, cuz that's basically the only time where this item is worth it
I hope they remove Heartsteel and bring back old items like ZZrot or Banner of Command. As Sion main what I need is utility tools to play the game based on the situation I have. Heartsteel is must-have item for Sion for now because you have to deal more damage to be usefull in this game nowaday.
4:16 I do love to use Unstoppable Onslaught to charge at the enemy backline as a Malphite from half the lane away, even if their frontline Sion tries to cancel it with his Unstoppable Force
My favorite class, a sad discussion but a welcome one.
13:10 this is the only point i really disagree with, because although you are entirely correct, not everyone plays like the majority. it's the same reason that people play support (not just in league, in basically every game), play tank classes in other games where their _only_ job is to protect. not everyone wants to be a top damage highest KDA hypercarry. it's just not in the interest of everyone out there. some people, myself included, like to play those supportive and defensive rolls. take a game like overwatch. fundamentally, a team could not win without their two supports. however, that same team could never win without their dps'. it's simply a matter of taste. do you want to play the roll that you like or force yourself to play another samey hypercarry you see in _every_ other game so you have the potential to save a dog water team from a loss? sometimes it's not taking a gamble, it's just playing what you like to play and the natural consequences that come from that. a soraka could never carry, but a jinx could never win a 1v2 lane by herself. conversely, while the 15/3 full tank poppy on top lane definitely won't carry the game, she never could've stopped the enemy nasus from hyperscaling into an easy win if she wasn't there. there's always a job to fill!
The new animations are lit. Keep up the great job, bro! ♥
nice video love the editing
I'm Tank Main and this Season is really hard to play them
As a top lamer I miss the battle tanks. I think they serve as a good counter to overly mobile champs in their ability to stay check and have cc. As a bruiser player I loved the drawn out heavyweight fights that they created. I think they could be balanced in the game if they gained tankiness based on enemies in proximity. That way they aren’t impossible in the side lanes but also not one shot in team fights
The problem with tanks are two: true damage and percentage of health damage.
If there's at least one of those in the enemy team (ie Vayne, Fiora), they won't be tanking any longer than their ADC. So, the only way to make a tank actually usefull, is making it dealing some damage in the fight.
My solution for this is: make tanks actually tanky (to the point where they can handle the entire enemy by itself without being that fed), but also make they unable to deal any significant burst/consistent damage.
Fiora is meant to split push she can have a realy hard time to kill the tank in a teamfight where the tank wantd to play
Having played against Sion plenty of times, I can safely say his Ult is anything *but* engage. Rather his "I just ran down lane, destroyed your tower, and am now going to run away because your entire team is here" ability.
"Cowards?! you only one who escaping!"
Friendly reminder that Toplane is the only lane in the game that has raid bosses and champs where inting is literally the most viable meta.
I feel like some ppl don’t know the difference between Tanks, Juggernauts and Bruisers
Old maokai was my favourite champ I miss him every time I play specially the ultimate
Riot needs to bring back Mokai's old Ult on a future champion, as well as Urgot's old Ult
I want some battletanks back, because we got lots of anti tank items in all roles (excluding support) and as an idea. It's quite fun, a tank that isn't a 2d idea, have some fun and be with the rest of the party. Go fight and deal ok damage, but you can't really tank due to many damage dealing capabilities (true damage, armor pen etc.)
I just want to be able to tank for at least 3s in a teamfight and deal pleasurable amount of damage.
Something I was expecting in the video that didn't get covered, was the battle tank Akali/ Ekko/ Fizz. Ekko was a menace when he could build tank.
feel like the people who say tanks are broken are the ones who lock in jhin or ahri when they see enemy lock in sion sejuani
I literally wrote a concept document for a shurima/void themed AP battle tank that I've theorycrafted yesterday.
The core idea was to make a mage (AP damage, Area Coverage, CC) with significantly less burst damage potential and range but more area coverage, support and survivability.
The passive decreased the efficiency of any sources of AP (items, runes, buff effects, etc...) by 30% (so a 100 AP item would only grant him 70 instead) but gave him a bonus to AR/MR equal to 10% of his current AP. He also got a stacking buff to his AR/MR equal to a fraction his spent mana (25% at level 18, the buff would last for 2.5s, would stack but not refresh in duration. Every buff-instance of this effect has a seperate duration). Lastly he had melee-range auto attacks but could gain charges by casting abilities. At 3 stacks his next auto attack had 525 range and threw a void-flame at the enemy that burned them for 2-3s.
His Q is very similar to Syndra's Q in that it deals damage in a circular area after a short delay. The cast-range was a lot lower (syndra has 900 units I believe while he only has 500) and the area of effect was a bit larger (210 units vs 250 units). His aoe was also split into an inner circle and an outer ring with the center of the ability dealing bonus damage and having a slight displacement effect (basically a magic Aatrox Q). after a 2s delay he can recast it but with the outer ring of the hitbox dealing increased damage instead of the center.
His W is a self-spellshield but it also creates a medium-sized aoe around himself for 6-8s depending on the abilities level. Any allies (including himself) within the aoe had their AR/MR increased by 20% of his repsective stat (~25-40 ish each depending on build) and got a bonus to their Ability Haste equal to 5% of his AP (also about 30-40).
His E is just a directional skill shot that can either be tapped for a short range burst of damage or charged up for a longer range blast that explodes on impact and stuns targets.
His ultimate is essentially a big Kayn Q (a very short teleport during which he vanishes for ~1s followed by a 500 unit radius circular whirling attack with his weapon). The ability deals very little damage at base but the outer edge of the aoe is a sweet spot in which enemies take additional damage and are burned similarly to how his passive auto attack works just for 5s instead of 3s.
Enemies hit by the outer edge of the attack also had their AR/MR reduced by 20% of his current AR/MR respectively.
Due to his passive he would most likely only ever reach ~600-800 AP even at full build and his AP ratios would be somewhere in the range of 30%-80% depending on the ability to make sure he doesn't buy Rod of Ages, teleports and sweeps the opposing botlane at level 7. Obviously he's still an AP champion so he could probably still shredd but I tried to gimp his burst potential as much as possible by locking a lot of his damage behind a charge up, hard to hit sweet spot and a dot effect.
The champ could most likely not be balanced due to being a mage/tank hybrid and I can already see how instead of beeing played AP bruiser top / tank support people would just build him full AP mid and it'd be completely busted for some reason. I still think the champion would be a lot of fun as there are a lot of decisions to make while playing and his abilities allow for sufficient counterplay through longer than usual cast times and the easily dodgable sweet spots. Definitly a champ I'd play, whether he'd be busted or underwhelming strenght-wise.
I remember in that series (shr vs ssw) maokai actually did the most damage at 17k with tristana despite being well-farmed and fed only did 12k damage. I do not have the proof to show as the old match history site got removed as that series was 8 years ago, but I remember through memory.
I have enjoyed some tank metas and thought they where the healthiest state the game could be in.
I am particularly refering to tank metas where tanks where immovable walls, but hit like a wet noodle.
(Btw I am not a tank main, I main enchanter supports, to clarify my biases)
Those were the nr 1 best meta's but tanks didn't 100-0 everything so they were the worst I guess??? ( ass-ass-in logic)
@@penguinmonk7661 well in a team they def did the most, but they couldn't run around and stomp everything, they just could just not be killed and cc you constantly.
As someone who enjoys playing tanks my issue is with the items. When u go against AP the items are lacking in damage. For armor u get sunfire and thorns for AP u get nothing
As a battle tank enjoyer, S14 Volibear has been a godsend
Hey dude. Your content is awesome 👍
4.20 - 7.9 Sejuani also was a battletank IMO. Her w was an AOE damage and combined with her E which was a slow on tragets that she hit, she could chase you down. Add in some CDR and even Rivens couldn't get away from you.
ALso old Maokai with Roar was peak. I loved it so much.
cool to know that you're an old Sej enjoyer. I really miss her.
I used to play dota 2 and i really liked tidehunter, his q is a targeted ability that deal some damage (doesn't scale) reduces armor and slows the target, the w is a passive that blocks dmg from aa and purges cc when receiving a certain amount of damage (400 i think), the e does damage around him (uses your ad) and reduces enemies attack that get hit by it, the ult is basically a bigger amumu ult. He is a really tanky hero that is a threat not because of the damage, but of the armor and attack damage reduction with a really amazing teamfight ult, he wants to keep fighting to bring utility and you can't just stun him cause he keeps purging with the w passive. He can deal damage with the E if he builds damage, but he won't resist almost anything and die fast. I know they are different games, but i think a tank should be like that, the problem in league is that there's so much damage in the game tanks can't resist enough so they need the damage to keep up with the others
There's 0 damage tanks in league too but even then
I feel this as a former Garen main. Used to be a battle tank in the Juggernaut days but since then he's evolved into a crit/AS build champ because full tank garen is useless now
As someone who loves playing the AP tanks like Maokai (old and new), Malphite, Nautilus, and Zac, I can honestly say I felt pushed out of the game when “tanks are bad” became the meta. I primarily play Supports, so before a match even really started, I would be frequently criticized for just wanting to play something other than the ADC’s babysitter. But at least the durability update fixed that somewhat.
Imo, i feel like Sion could do with a bit of a midscope. Something to make his kit feel a bit more consistent, mainly his passive.
I'm going to be honest - some time ago, Riot made sure that Tanks would completely dominate for a few patches, and they did, but somewhere along the line, tons of indirect nerfs happened and everyone found out that Tanks somehow feel squishier than most ranged champions to the point there's no incentive to play them.
You either play ADCs, AP supports, maybe have one engage tank but more than one is usually detrimental to your team, and assassins. Bruisers and Tanks usually die before they can even engage for their team, because for some unknown reason, *damage has become so high* across the board that Riot even decided to buff durability again.
Full lethality Aatrox was so potent that Riot nerfed it and made the champ unplayable in one fell swoop.
Playing tanks like Sion "like a tank" with heartsteel/jak'cho - sunfire - thornmail ect feels so bad. Like you said his cc is not reliable but it's suppose to be his classes selling point. You even don't really do damage most of the time either and the enemy also have many ways dash away or just outdamage you. You can't survive for more than 5 seconds against any opposing team because tank shreading items are the most common in the game. I found more success with "tanking" with Brair. Taking 10 seconds of punishment from 3+ enemies in a tf and coming out with 40% hp still left. True tanks seems to be slowly warping into juggernauts and I just wish I could survive long enough for my class to function like intended.
I do miss old Sejuani. She was my first ever main as a jungler, and she got me to gold on my first season playing ranked. I don't hate the new one, she's just not the same. I would much rather she did less damage but was less reliant on having melee allies. That mostly feels like it works in pro play, but never in soloqueue
I think Riot's biggest issue with tanks always comes from the fact that they make the tank items strong to help tanks be playable like everyone else. But then a bunch of not tanks that honestly do just have too much in their kit can tank tank items and still run rampant.
So they nerf the tank items which were making tanks actually viable and fun to play.
I'm a tank main. All I want for my tanks is for them to have some pressure outside of being thick boys with utility. But I don't want them to start slapping squishes with the might of Zeus either. Just buff their damage against minions and monsters so they can actually FARM with reasonable tempo.
Like Shen as an example. When he was last in a good, fun space he usually could skirmish with his lane opponent. It felt fair since you actually had to play it well. But Shen has doodoo lane pressure and always has. He can't shove waves to save his life. And this was fine.
But they then nerfed his skirmishing potential a lot. But he still shoves waves like crap.
Now it just feels like you kind of hang out waiting to be an ult bot.
There are three large parts of the game damage is used for player fights, minion/monster farming and wave control, and sieging.
Even as a support you want at least two of those things to be at a decent level for many various scenarios.
I don't have a problem with lowering tank damage vs other champs. But give them some damage for minions.
Tanks always have been the best meta because if they are strong you have very simple direct champs that are almost always beaten by actual teamwork rather than 1 tricks who grab the busted assassin and make you see a grey screen more than anything.
When a tank is strong you get to spend time playing the game to try killing the tank.
But what you just said applies to assassins too. Actually mark them and peel for your squishies and you win. I play Lissandra mid a lot partially because if my team sucks at peeling I can just save our AD and remove their assassin and we can still go up in the fight.
@@ElReyDeNoche a fed chogath will struggle to eliminate a whole team alone. He can full straight up 1shot a single person, and from there the team has to work to keep him CCed, he wont dodge, and to burn down his health, which wont regenerate.
A fed katarina instantly kills you.
What the other guy said is correct. A fed "raid boss" is more fun than a fed bullet to the head.
@@exoticbreadstick8661And a fed support is actual garbage. Guess what? Not every champion and role is the same while fed, but you still need variety in your draft in order to maximize your chances of winning.
That garbage support can still peel and cc the fed assassin long enough so they don't do anything and die. That's just how the game works.
I really don't get why top laners always complain when their role is not absolutely fucking broken beyond belief. Top lane is fine right now: tanks are very durable and they can still easily kill non-tanks if they get close ebough.
The only legitimate complaint is that jungle doesn't really care for them right now, so they're playing on a deserted island until late game
@@florinalinmarginean1135 i agree that different champs should have different abilities while fed. The draven that goes 10/1 early should wipe the floor with the game, but nautilus should not gain a substantial advantage, to incentive him to not steal kills. What i am saying is that dying to a fed tank is more fun, in my opinion, than being 1shot by an assassin.
A fed raid boss is only more fun to some people. I hate the idea of trying to peel someone off and them taking multiple rotations of spells and not having damage for their squishies who just clean us up. Against an assassin I just have to have the vision needed to catch them out and we likely still have damage and ults for the rest of the team.
@@exoticbreadstick8661
I cant believe that you actually liked their tank changes. Every tank main I know wants tanks to do less damage but be more durable. It's a tank class.
If you want a beefy fighter, there's a class for that known as... the fighter/bruiser class.
Wondering if you could make a video of the "Stance changer" archetype. Officially, Udyr is the only champion in the stance mechanic, but I think Aphelios and Qiyana should be counted as well. They all have the same mechanic that allows them to switch between stances each granting unique properties onto their na and moves set.
Sure but the problem is that the line blurs between stance changer and transformation characters. e.g. Jayce.
I just see k'sante under wardens and i am thinking: "Yes the thank that one-shots you is a defensive type tank." Riot whatever you were smoking i want it aswell.
Bro, make up your mind.
5:16 : Cho'gath for the most part goes full AP
6:35 : In practive though Cho'gath mainly goes full tank
Can't be both.
I just wish I couuld have played league back when tanks were tanks and did no damage, I would gladly play a champion with a gimmick of not being able to deal damage if they played with increased durability scaling, cc, and ally buffs.
I didn’t know that tanks existed in league, because I thought tankiness was tied to enemy levels and items 🙃
I mean you’re not exactly wrong
Why did some of the character art mess up and look bad in the background? I am glad nothing else corrupted badly!
Simple answer when maokais got released I played for 6 days straight just to buy him and played the fuck out of it leaving someone at 5 HP and sending my seed to finish them was the one thing I loved I miss him so much same for tahm i eat my teammate and run loved it now I don't like him I loved the unick aspect of both now I miss them .
I just found my love to climb as Malphite.
PTA /Ghost TP max E first
5 W/ 0L in Emerald +
It also didn't help that some fighter with sustain can fill the tank role while dealing so much damage. Especially during the early patch of jaksho
1:19 this is the worst take I have heard Vars make. Even Riot themselves admitted that there now is a SHORTER kill window than before the Durability update because they were too focused on buffing with damage.
I love the damage oriented tanks. They include a lot of my favourite champions.
What about K'sante? He's definitely a battle tank, even in his base form. Ornn too. His ult and w does crazy amounts of damage, and his q is a decent poke tool, and his dash range isn't all that much.
uh dude. Baus actually uses Sion's ult as a combat ability more times than engage. it's literally part of his dueling combo to burst you while being hard cc'd in between
it's an interesting design case study. My take is that it was judged as an archetype/dimension that did not have directions to go. In terms of game design, most battle tanks have "sneaky" strength, since most of their power budget is invested into extended fight power (via sustain, cc, or some such). For the player base this terms of power is hard to notice UNLESS it reaches the point mentioned in the video where they see them become unkillable monsters, so as a designer you would expect the player base to be "MEH" on battle tanks or "OMG THIS SHIT OP NERF", and neither is desirable. Also the play pattern is slightly counter intuitive for player execution and can lead to subjectively undesirable game states. If you are a battle tank, and you are fed out of your mind, your instinct might be to ramp up the pressure and start forcing fights. However, this is actually not always the case, since as we mentioned the battle tank budget is in-fight power, and generally sacrifices engage tools for that, so if you are trying to force fights you are generally incurring a penalty and might actually be throwing your lead. The expected play pattern when ahead as a battle tank is just area control, denying the enemy space by existing in an area. No fight breaks out, but enemy can't walk up due to being behind, and your team just goes around taking objectives. This can lead to the subjectively undesirable game flow of "we got ahead, enemy did nothing, and we won" which might not be a direction you want to push the game into.
I'm a swain main, one of the tricks to playing swain well and being basically unkillable is essentially building just tanky enough, too much dmg and you die before the fight can start and too tanky will just make you a sponge not able to kill anyone in a 1v1 scenario and rely on teammates for all damage, I think tanks that want to do damage should have the same approach they should have to build in a way that they have to optimise their damage and tankiness for each game, obviously every champ can do more with an optimal build, but a 'battle tank' should slot in as a bulkier slower fighter, they shouldnt be able to do high burst damage, but should be able to take a chunk out of you with their large slow abilities, that being said I think they should have to optimise for that damage as opposed to getting damage directly through building tanky
Nautilus Top/Mid is still really playable. He really benefits from the tank items we have right now and his W makes him really safe in lane.
The abyssal mask changes kill naut so hard, after msi.
@@mahiruchan6424 Naut can get through lane without mana issues, either take Presence of Mind/Manaflow/Biscuits in your secondary runes or start Corrupting Potion. Sunfire is the better rush into AD but Abyssal is still a good rush into AP. It not building out of Catalyst anymore is a fucking tragedy for Naut specifically, but it is still a really potent item. I generally run a Sunfire Jaksho Abyssal core followed by situational tank or damage depending on the game.
Dun like jaksho kind of useless to me expensive somemore, I usually go evenshroud for mythic but evenshroud nerf like hell maybe go radiant is better not sure.
@@mahiruchan6424 Jak Sho makes sustained fights better, its expensive but it gives a lot more staying power than radiant. Its what I was building on Naut Top before I realized that Evenshroud was the better mythic. Evenshroud is still decent after the nerfs but it just has less impact now than it did last patch.
Naut can also rush a Rod of Ages in easy matchups, like against a Katarina, which gives you that catalyst effect which rocks and gives some extra damage. I have way less success with it personally, but it feels frustratingly close to being a good option.
Can i make rift such beautiful as it is on 1:56? Or is it only possible on montage or something
Pretty sure I've seen Baus with 400 AD and 8K hp on Sion more than once just recently. K'sante is another character that is definitely a fighting tank instead of a bruiser.
Cho'gath is a late game champion, that's why you build tank on it, you need to survive the mid game, where everyone can melt you down with 2 items if you doesnt go full tank or play in the backline (which is hard since you only have 1 long range ability), then you can start build more damage oriented items if you team has another frontline
Cho'gath is a late game champ in the mind of majority, but he isn't. Adc with 6 items just destroy Cho late game
@@googloocraft1217in some games in some trinity ADC meta im plain Cho ... and very good remember hov full item Ash actually killed herself on my bramble west... her be like lose ≈60-80% her health on reflect damage... this fool be eaten becomes his slow understanding WHO the TRUE HUNTER hear! if you don't build even BOTRK vs tank you don't deserve winning:)
I would argue old taric was a battle tank, all his skills would do dmg except for the heal which would make your passive do dmg and hes basically unkillable if fed vs anything that did physical dmg.
I miss old battle tanks so much. It really feels like they tried to bring it back to that ideal with Sett, and then because of people abusing it in a support role, now the person with 'battle tank' as his defining characteristic according to Riot is pidgeonholed into 'q build go brrrrrrr'
Honestly you can't buy anything against anyone anymore as a tank
Life? -> BOTRK
Armor? -> Lord Dominiks
MR? -> Void Staff + Liandrys + demonic embrace
+ Kraken
Playing Rammus Full Tank feels like a glass cannon
THIS, sooo true, glad to see sensible honest truthful people for once in a comment section.
I play very casually, but I really dont know how Shen does damage? it feels like he is using a wet noodle to fight instead of a sword.
Shen's Q hit very hard if passive hit
Ornn has a combo where you proc his brittle passive three times in a row. In lower elo it is 100% viable to jump into the entire team and oneshot the enemy backline.
I wonder if there will be a comparison to Smash Brothers or Pokemon in this script!
It's funny you bring up the durability update claiming tanks were unpopular until then when the durability update effectively hurt tanks and made them weaker overall relative to every other class.
Turns out when you give every single character the exact same flat increase in stats in a game where defensive values have diminishing returns the defence stackers gain the least while everyone else gained enough durability to shrug off tanks.
Didn't help that all healing/shielding was nerfed at the same time as the durability update, these being mechanics tanks often relied on, so tanks gained less relative to everyone else while having their defensive tools that weren't raw bulk weakened.
a lot of shen mains say the champ feels horrible after his q damage nerf in season 12. you just need to look at xpetu to see the consequence of that 😭
4:15 🤓 actually you mean Unstoppable Force not Unstoppable Onslaught (sion's ult)
Tanks, from beginning to end, were ALWAYS my favorite role.
Seeing people getting depressed because I penta with Rammus by pressing W was the best thing ever.
This is why Baus just plays AD nuclear one shot Sion. Even his "Tank" Sion does not build full tank lol
thats because full tank sion is troll
i'd argue ornn fits more closely into the battle tank ideal, despite his ulti. vanguards are, to me at least, most exemplified by their ability to *go in*. they engage more or less with their bodies, and from a good distance. ornn is kind of an outlier here. he has his incredible ulti engage from potentially very far away, but he lacks any meaningful way to follow it up. maokai kind of feels similar here, although twisted advance is a much better followup than what ornn is capable of
I weeped tears when i saw old maokai splash art
It was fun to play maokai
He is a complete joke now
Where is that animated part from. The part from like 30sec in
Durability update and tanks are stronger are not things that go together. I main tanks and after the patch I went from being able to kill some champs to my damage is getting out healed and they can out shield my damage as well while all my stats got powercrept into being worth less. tanks woulda gotten buffed if they nerfed damage but they didn't they just powercrept the game more and now we are back into 1 shot meta where 10k hp isn't much hp anymore or 300 mr and 400 armour isn't that much cause everyone does insane dps and hybrid %hp damage while having over 50% pen. if riot revert durability patch but just nerf everyones damage that would be nice oh and also they nerf all the tank runes and items cause non tanks abuse them while tanks aren't able to use them well.
The music is very heavenly what is the song's name?
Yeah I love when K'sante one-shot my adc and destroys my midlaner but he was actually trying to peel his samira...
Galio isn't really a tank anymore, he is a mage and functions best built as one.
Good to know someone else misses the strong non-support Nautilus
Malphites R isn't unstoppable onslaught, that's sions. 4:15