I think the biggest issue with pact of the chain is how familiars work in the game. If the familiar help action have advantage and didn’t break invisibility like in TT then it would be amazing. It wouldn’t even matter that they could only be summoned once per rest.
I'd be happy with that! Advantage for a single attack is hardly game breaking when we have stuff like the risky ring, hat of arcane acuity and band of the mystic scoundrel already in the game.
Larian *really* should've given Pact of the Chain and Pact of the Tome Warlocks something extra to make them more comparable to Pact of the Blade. Even some exclusive Invocations would've been cool, like one that lets the Pact Summon transform into something more powerful. Hell, there already is one called: *Book of Ancient Secrets* which lets you cast some extra spells for free once every long rest, but it's bizarrely not exclusive to Pact of the Tome. Which is weird, since it *does* necessitate Pact of the Tome in 5e, and as an effect it gives access to the 9 Ritual spells.
Yeah, or even giving pact of the tome the ability to scribe the ritual spells available in the game would have been a nice addition. All apart from one are level 1 spells anyway, so it's not like it's a massive power spike for them. Perhaps pact of the chain warlocks could channel their spells through their summons so it's as if the summon had cast the spell or something? I'm sure I've seen affects like that before. Heck I can remember casting spells from my slann through my skink priests while playing Warhammer at one point!
@@CasualVeteranGamer In 5e any Familiars summoned with Find Familiar can be used to cast spells, but only spells with a range of Touch. That's probably what you're thinking. But yeah, letting Pact of the Chain Warlocks cast any spells through their familiars would be a nice boost.
I think that speaks more about how quickened spell works, and how much sorcery points can be (ab)used. I do wish that pact of the chain and tome were better though, they are generally lacking compared to pact of the blade.
Warlock have only 2 good things: Eldrict blast and Pact of Blade and that two things don't need you to have high Warlock lv (Pack of Blade can stack with normal extra extra attack outside Honour mode so it still relevant have 5lv in Warlock when you not playing Honour). Eldrict blast only requires 2lv of warlock to reach it full potential (if you want to play safe then 4lv GOO, 4lv Champion, 4lv Thief and have cunning cloak, eyesight ring, keep disengage and hide so that you all ways heavy Obscured so enemy wont target you. You now cant be targeted, always attack with advantage, can hit and run everything cause have 2 dash, crit on 18 with advantage mean all most 30% crit without gear so with gear you can frightened practically everyone you want. And your dmg is consistent and decant 3*(1d10 + 2*charisma + 1d8 + 1d6(optional you you use hex))*2(optional if you self haste, chose this of hex) with 30% crit each ray while your accuracy is high cause everyone spell caster have high attack roll and spell save DC with the help of fire acuity. You are a better version of ranged that disguise as spell casters and youre awesome even without pack of blade). Pack of blade can function great without any warlock lv cause you can just respec, take pack of blade, bind your weapon, respec back to your original class and profit. Warlock outside of pact of blade still strong you go the Eldrict Blast build I said, the problem is that you have to accept you not a spell caster but a better version of some ranged martial class. Sorcerer have hight brush dmg (500-700 dmg first turn with fire dragon blood sorcerer) but they eat your spell slot like crazy and pretty vulnerable.
Pact of Blade is great for fiendlocks if you are staying in the class or are a melee focused caster. Pact of Tome, even if the spells fall out of favor later, I would argue it’s worth it for haste alone. But having Guidance and Thorn whip is also good for ability checks, or to mess with enemy positions to get em into disadvantage, or force em into other nasty spells.
Only use I've found for pact of the chain is using the imp to kill the war drums in the goblin camp 😂 stand super far away and most of the goblins just lose attitude with the imp and not the character
I remember how in EA, pact of the chain seemed the most viable. Shovel could only be scribed (recruited??) by a wizard, and depending on the route you were taking, it was nice to get the familiars early on. Imp was sort of King since it flies and can go invisible. But in the full game, Shovel (basket/fork) is the best. I always have her available as a summons for at least two party members. Plus, her dialog lines are just too fun. Which is to say, Pact of the Chain becomes severely lacking..."wah-wah". XD Thanks for the content!
Pact of the tomb multiclasses good with sorcerer. I wouldn’t take more than four levels of warlock unless you want hunger of hadar. Quicken spell is the only way you can push and pull an enemy on the same turn without mods.
Pact of chain with cleric around you will cast Aid and later Heroes' Feast and you can bath your imp in variaus elixirs and potions, so imp can get really tanky, but I agree that no scaling with levels is kind of strange here, I would expect that different in DnD like special scalable summon, but this is odd.
Pact of the Tome is significantly nerfed by a) the inability to pick the cantrips like in tabletop and b) the more limited list of cantrips and c) the more limited RP/exploration/non-combat uses for them. The spells gained at level 5 also feel a bit random. Call lightning and Haste being C spells means they are rarely going to get used over more important spells like Darkness, Hunger of Hadar and Hex Pact of the Chain is massively nerfed by the more limited RP/exploration/non-combat uses for familiars as well as lacking the Help action to grant advantage Warlocks overall are nerfed outside of being EB blasters or Bladelocks in BG3 due to the limits of a combat-oriented computer game. In tabletop they can excel as utility casters (which is how I tend to play them) with the right combo of spells, invocations and other abilities
Yeah, it's a massive shame that two out of the three pacts are really lacking/nerfed compared to tabletop. I always feel bad picking tome or chain, but I don't want/need every warlock to have pact of the blade.
Tome is my preference since I prefer pure warlock to the gish style of blade. But it is disappointing that they don't advance again at level 11. It'd have been great if Level 11 Chain got new familiars at level 11. How could would it be if it became basically Planer Ally? Level 11 warlock isn't exactly over powered and it wouldn't push them over the top. How cool would it be if Blade got Eldritch smite at level 11 or just a 3rd attack? How cool would it be if tome got 3 more spells? Heck tome could give us 3 level 4 spells at level 11 and I'd be ecstatic.
I dig the idea of pack of the chain having something like any spells cast on self also affect the familiar at level 11. I can only think of armor of Aguthust (however you spell that), but it would be really good without being broken and also be flavorful. That, or your familar gettong a free cast of that one fire spell that triggers as a reaction when you are hit, except only when the warlock is hit. Demonic revenge kind of thing.
Yeah, the obvious higher power of the pact of the blade is a bit disappointing. Of course all three pacts are viable, but I can't bring myself to pick pact of the chain anymore unless I'm really trying to force myself to do something different. I love your suggestions by the way!
imo i feel like pact of the tome shoul let ya add spells from scrolls like a wizard, maybe limiting it to ritual spells or something, but it'd be nice.
I think 5 undervaluing the supprise round. Most fights if prepered dont get to the enemies turn with a well set up fight much less supprise to boot. Next i think the facts that the pacts summons and or shovel is weak is actually a boon. No they dont make good murder machines but the can have ilithid shields applied to them. This makes them tankier but it also mean you can fairly consistently place them near groups of enemies and stun them. The ai targeting wil hope in on them like sharks due to their trash ac. Finally they can be used to consistently prock sneak attack and then apply that last push of damage. Now all this being said shovel gives you 95% of the ulility and can be used on any build or any character if you're willing to respec for 3 mins.
The problem I see is that Pact of the Blade give some characters a fundmental advantage in terms of stat distribution. So, for the other pacts to really compete with Blade they should give a similar benefit. Neither in a way to replace warlocks using Cha at all, but something of equal benefit to builds for them and for multiclassing. Imagine if Tome if tome let you replace Dex to AC with Int to AC, or if the Chain let you subtract Con from damage taken (magic damage to you and physical damage to your summons). ...For the record, I'm always quick to jump on houseruling as a solution, so yeah these ain't at all in line with normal d&d. But I dont care, so *nyeh!*
You're not looking at Chain correctly. Invisible Imp is free surprise for every combat. On top of that, most of the time it will get a 2nd o 3rd attack from starting combat this way. The party is safely away and free to engage as you see fit. Hyper strong if you have an assassin rogue in the party. As to getting stronger, it can get lots of buffs. Aid, mage armor, warding bond(twin spell from camp Gale), death ward, longstrider, and all the rest. Compared to Tome it is way better. Blade wins of course, but I think you are really under selling the Imp.
Shovel provides identical utility for most of Act 1 and is free every short rest to wizards, warlocks, and sorcerers - or anyone who is willing to respec. It isn't until level 5 and above that Imp starts to shine. And it only shines for a few levels before its power spike dims. Chain simply needs more utility *and* available summons to be considered a remotely useful summoner class compared to Circle of Spores Druid or Necromancer Wizard. I agree with you though that in a vacuum Invisible Imp is a great choice to open combat; I just wish it was Chain exclusive.
@akoicarp yes and no. Shovel lose invisibility in water, mud, and such. Can't fly. Dose less damage, which for the Imp through the goblin camp is quite sufficient. And I don't consider Chain a "summoner" class. It gets 1 summon that doubles as a great, if not the best, scout. Help action for familiars would go a long way in BG3, but we don't have it.
@@scottduncan7099 I'll give you the flight, for sure. I like your conception of the class overall. I think it could use a couple unique invocations that either empower or support its familiar - maybe greater invisibility once per long rest or something like that. I'll try to play around with its scout potential more.
@akoicarp I'm very biased. Warlock main. And in table top Chain is VERY strong. Especially with a Genie patron. Some more invocations would be nice. Especially for lvl 12, as life drinker is useless to any non Blade. Something for all 3 would be nice. Mods it is. There's one that gives the Imp the knock spell. Fun foe solo runs when I want a non Charlatan or Urchin background.
I just want to say that this is the sort of discourse that I love to see in comment sections! Even though you disagree, you have carefully explained why. I will freely admit that I don't value surprise rounds as much as other people, plus it's often possible to get surprise anyway without the imp/quasit. I know the imp is better than using a party member, but for me the opportunity cost is too high. Perhaps I did undersell it, but outside of surprise rounds and scouting, I don't see much value in those summons when we can get surprise rounds in other ways, and then have one of the other pacts as well.
The benefit of Pact of the Chain is that the Imp's Sting attack allows it to start combat without losing any actions, meaning it can start an ambush and then turn invisible immediately, or even attack 2-3 times before anyone gets a turn. If you're patient, an Imp can solo most of the enemies in an encounter by just ambushing, killing an enemy, and then going invisible to end combat. By recycling this tactic, most fights become incredibly easy to cheese.
They they pick your three cantrips for you? That's an abomination in theory with the tone pack the Warlock could have access to cold and radiant damage not to mention acid and lightning on fire I can understand maybe not putting in some of the more meta options like I don't know maybe press the digitation or you know something like mending or even magic mouth I can understand that but having the game designers forcing you to have only those three spells which at best vicious mockery is the best and that's mediocre that is disgusting the Warlock is basically a cantrip wizard and you take all of its options away that is Unforgivable this makes me hate the game I wish I hadn't even looked this up
![[Act 3] Solo Warlock - Disrespecting Raphael - Honour Mode](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Gdsv8ghVX18/mqdefault.jpg)
Pact of the blade single handily solves all of paladins MAD issues
Yeah, it's definitely one of the best multiclasses for pact of the blade.
imo strength elixirs are the better way to go about it
I think the biggest issue with pact of the chain is how familiars work in the game. If the familiar help action have advantage and didn’t break invisibility like in TT then it would be amazing. It wouldn’t even matter that they could only be summoned once per rest.
I'd be happy with that! Advantage for a single attack is hardly game breaking when we have stuff like the risky ring, hat of arcane acuity and band of the mystic scoundrel already in the game.
Larian *really* should've given Pact of the Chain and Pact of the Tome Warlocks something extra to make them more comparable to Pact of the Blade. Even some exclusive Invocations would've been cool, like one that lets the Pact Summon transform into something more powerful. Hell, there already is one called: *Book of Ancient Secrets* which lets you cast some extra spells for free once every long rest, but it's bizarrely not exclusive to Pact of the Tome. Which is weird, since it *does* necessitate Pact of the Tome in 5e, and as an effect it gives access to the 9 Ritual spells.
Yeah, or even giving pact of the tome the ability to scribe the ritual spells available in the game would have been a nice addition. All apart from one are level 1 spells anyway, so it's not like it's a massive power spike for them.
Perhaps pact of the chain warlocks could channel their spells through their summons so it's as if the summon had cast the spell or something? I'm sure I've seen affects like that before. Heck I can remember casting spells from my slann through my skink priests while playing Warhammer at one point!
@@CasualVeteranGamer In 5e any Familiars summoned with Find Familiar can be used to cast spells, but only spells with a range of Touch.
That's probably what you're thinking.
But yeah, letting Pact of the Chain Warlocks cast any spells through their familiars would be a nice boost.
warlocks outside of pact of blade shenanigans really do feel like weaker sorcerers
I think that speaks more about how quickened spell works, and how much sorcery points can be (ab)used. I do wish that pact of the chain and tome were better though, they are generally lacking compared to pact of the blade.
Warlock have only 2 good things: Eldrict blast and Pact of Blade and that two things don't need you to have high Warlock lv (Pack of Blade can stack with normal extra extra attack outside Honour mode so it still relevant have 5lv in Warlock when you not playing Honour). Eldrict blast only requires 2lv of warlock to reach it full potential (if you want to play safe then 4lv GOO, 4lv Champion, 4lv Thief and have cunning cloak, eyesight ring, keep disengage and hide so that you all ways heavy Obscured so enemy wont target you. You now cant be targeted, always attack with advantage, can hit and run everything cause have 2 dash, crit on 18 with advantage mean all most 30% crit without gear so with gear you can frightened practically everyone you want. And your dmg is consistent and decant 3*(1d10 + 2*charisma + 1d8 + 1d6(optional you you use hex))*2(optional if you self haste, chose this of hex) with 30% crit each ray while your accuracy is high cause everyone spell caster have high attack roll and spell save DC with the help of fire acuity. You are a better version of ranged that disguise as spell casters and youre awesome even without pack of blade). Pack of blade can function great without any warlock lv cause you can just respec, take pack of blade, bind your weapon, respec back to your original class and profit. Warlock outside of pact of blade still strong you go the Eldrict Blast build I said, the problem is that you have to accept you not a spell caster but a better version of some ranged martial class. Sorcerer have hight brush dmg (500-700 dmg first turn with fire dragon blood sorcerer) but they eat your spell slot like crazy and pretty vulnerable.
Pact of Blade is great for fiendlocks if you are staying in the class or are a melee focused caster.
Pact of Tome, even if the spells fall out of favor later, I would argue it’s worth it for haste alone. But having Guidance and Thorn whip is also good for ability checks, or to mess with enemy positions to get em into disadvantage, or force em into other nasty spells.
Only use I've found for pact of the chain is using the imp to kill the war drums in the goblin camp 😂 stand super far away and most of the goblins just lose attitude with the imp and not the character
I remember how in EA, pact of the chain seemed the most viable. Shovel could only be scribed (recruited??) by a wizard, and depending on the route you were taking, it was nice to get the familiars early on. Imp was sort of King since it flies and can go invisible. But in the full game, Shovel (basket/fork) is the best. I always have her available as a summons for at least two party members. Plus, her dialog lines are just too fun. Which is to say, Pact of the Chain becomes severely lacking..."wah-wah". XD
Thanks for the content!
I remember that for some time an invisible imp could also open up waypoints, so we could send it ahead and teleport to wherever we wanted to!
in EA chain pact was the only option lol
They gave the Bethesda answer to is it a bug or a feature, which is yes.
HAH!
Pact of the tomb multiclasses good with sorcerer. I wouldn’t take more than four levels of warlock unless you want hunger of hadar. Quicken spell is the only way you can push and pull an enemy on the same turn without mods.
Pact of chain with cleric around you will cast Aid and later Heroes' Feast and you can bath your imp in variaus elixirs and potions, so imp can get really tanky, but I agree that no scaling with levels is kind of strange here, I would expect that different in DnD like special scalable summon, but this is odd.
Pact of the Tome is significantly nerfed by a) the inability to pick the cantrips like in tabletop and b) the more limited list of cantrips and c) the more limited RP/exploration/non-combat uses for them. The spells gained at level 5 also feel a bit random. Call lightning and Haste being C spells means they are rarely going to get used over more important spells like Darkness, Hunger of Hadar and Hex
Pact of the Chain is massively nerfed by the more limited RP/exploration/non-combat uses for familiars as well as lacking the Help action to grant advantage
Warlocks overall are nerfed outside of being EB blasters or Bladelocks in BG3 due to the limits of a combat-oriented computer game. In tabletop they can excel as utility casters (which is how I tend to play them) with the right combo of spells, invocations and other abilities
Yeah, it's a massive shame that two out of the three pacts are really lacking/nerfed compared to tabletop. I always feel bad picking tome or chain, but I don't want/need every warlock to have pact of the blade.
Tome is my preference since I prefer pure warlock to the gish style of blade. But it is disappointing that they don't advance again at level 11. It'd have been great if Level 11 Chain got new familiars at level 11. How could would it be if it became basically Planer Ally? Level 11 warlock isn't exactly over powered and it wouldn't push them over the top. How cool would it be if Blade got Eldritch smite at level 11 or just a 3rd attack? How cool would it be if tome got 3 more spells? Heck tome could give us 3 level 4 spells at level 11 and I'd be ecstatic.
I dig the idea of pack of the chain having something like any spells cast on self also affect the familiar at level 11. I can only think of armor of Aguthust (however you spell that), but it would be really good without being broken and also be flavorful. That, or your familar gettong a free cast of that one fire spell that triggers as a reaction when you are hit, except only when the warlock is hit. Demonic revenge kind of thing.
Yeah, the obvious higher power of the pact of the blade is a bit disappointing. Of course all three pacts are viable, but I can't bring myself to pick pact of the chain anymore unless I'm really trying to force myself to do something different.
I love your suggestions by the way!
That sounds cool! Getting extra attacks/abilities on the familiar would help to boost them from where they currently sit.
@@CasualVeteranGamer Thanks!
imo i feel like pact of the tome shoul let ya add spells from scrolls like a wizard, maybe limiting it to ritual spells or something, but it'd be nice.
I think 5 undervaluing the supprise round. Most fights if prepered dont get to the enemies turn with a well set up fight much less supprise to boot.
Next i think the facts that the pacts summons and or shovel is weak is actually a boon. No they dont make good murder machines but the can have ilithid shields applied to them. This makes them tankier but it also mean you can fairly consistently place them near groups of enemies and stun them. The ai targeting wil hope in on them like sharks due to their trash ac.
Finally they can be used to consistently prock sneak attack and then apply that last push of damage.
Now all this being said shovel gives you 95% of the ulility and can be used on any build or any character if you're willing to respec for 3 mins.
I tend to pick pact of the tome.
My argument: vicious mockery, I rest my case.
The problem I see is that Pact of the Blade give some characters a fundmental advantage in terms of stat distribution. So, for the other pacts to really compete with Blade they should give a similar benefit. Neither in a way to replace warlocks using Cha at all, but something of equal benefit to builds for them and for multiclassing.
Imagine if Tome if tome let you replace Dex to AC with Int to AC, or if the Chain let you subtract Con from damage taken (magic damage to you and physical damage to your summons).
...For the record, I'm always quick to jump on houseruling as a solution, so yeah these ain't at all in line with normal d&d. But I dont care, so *nyeh!*
I hate how you have to bind your weapon every long rest, sometimes I forget about it and suddenly get stuck with 1 attack per turn
You no longer need to as of a patch or 2 ago. Eldritch knight still has to though.
Thanks for the reminder!
You're not looking at Chain correctly. Invisible Imp is free surprise for every combat. On top of that, most of the time it will get a 2nd o 3rd attack from starting combat this way. The party is safely away and free to engage as you see fit. Hyper strong if you have an assassin rogue in the party. As to getting stronger, it can get lots of buffs. Aid, mage armor, warding bond(twin spell from camp Gale), death ward, longstrider, and all the rest. Compared to Tome it is way better. Blade wins of course, but I think you are really under selling the Imp.
Shovel provides identical utility for most of Act 1 and is free every short rest to wizards, warlocks, and sorcerers - or anyone who is willing to respec. It isn't until level 5 and above that Imp starts to shine. And it only shines for a few levels before its power spike dims. Chain simply needs more utility *and* available summons to be considered a remotely useful summoner class compared to Circle of Spores Druid or Necromancer Wizard.
I agree with you though that in a vacuum Invisible Imp is a great choice to open combat; I just wish it was Chain exclusive.
@akoicarp yes and no. Shovel lose invisibility in water, mud, and such. Can't fly. Dose less damage, which for the Imp through the goblin camp is quite sufficient. And I don't consider Chain a "summoner" class. It gets 1 summon that doubles as a great, if not the best, scout. Help action for familiars would go a long way in BG3, but we don't have it.
@@scottduncan7099 I'll give you the flight, for sure. I like your conception of the class overall. I think it could use a couple unique invocations that either empower or support its familiar - maybe greater invisibility once per long rest or something like that. I'll try to play around with its scout potential more.
@akoicarp I'm very biased. Warlock main. And in table top Chain is VERY strong. Especially with a Genie patron. Some more invocations would be nice. Especially for lvl 12, as life drinker is useless to any non Blade. Something for all 3 would be nice. Mods it is. There's one that gives the Imp the knock spell. Fun foe solo runs when I want a non Charlatan or Urchin background.
I just want to say that this is the sort of discourse that I love to see in comment sections! Even though you disagree, you have carefully explained why.
I will freely admit that I don't value surprise rounds as much as other people, plus it's often possible to get surprise anyway without the imp/quasit. I know the imp is better than using a party member, but for me the opportunity cost is too high.
Perhaps I did undersell it, but outside of surprise rounds and scouting, I don't see much value in those summons when we can get surprise rounds in other ways, and then have one of the other pacts as well.
The benefit of Pact of the Chain is that the Imp's Sting attack allows it to start combat without losing any actions, meaning it can start an ambush and then turn invisible immediately, or even attack 2-3 times before anyone gets a turn. If you're patient, an Imp can solo most of the enemies in an encounter by just ambushing, killing an enemy, and then going invisible to end combat. By recycling this tactic, most fights become incredibly easy to cheese.
Without pact of the blade, warlock would be a sorry class.
Nah, they will be fine, Honour mod make pact of blade cant stack anymore and it still all good 💀
I still feel that their invocations give them something a bit different, but I'm sad at how pact of the tome and chain were implemented.
The familiar at this game are so...boring...there is a bunch of summons but in the end of day you'll being using deva at maximum, that is sad
They they pick your three cantrips for you? That's an abomination in theory with the tone pack the Warlock could have access to cold and radiant damage not to mention acid and lightning on fire I can understand maybe not putting in some of the more meta options like I don't know maybe press the digitation or you know something like mending or even magic mouth I can understand that but having the game designers forcing you to have only those three spells which at best vicious mockery is the best and that's mediocre that is disgusting the Warlock is basically a cantrip wizard and you take all of its options away that is Unforgivable this makes me hate the game I wish I hadn't even looked this up