Struggling with Feedback? Easy Solution!
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- Опубліковано 24 жов 2023
- How to set proper speaker levels too avoid feedback
- My Instagram: / danielkharrat
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#gainstaging #feddback #livesound
![ПОЛНАЯ ИСТОРИЯ ЭКЗОРЦИЗМА [Топ Сикрет]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/qBySr6Bt0B8/mqdefault.jpg)
'The speakers are too loud' is the same as 'Gain is too high', just on the back end and not the front.
Obviously, turning down the levels in the room is going to reduce feedback, especially if the system is too loud for the room.
What you describe in this video is setting up a correct gain structure, which is a good idea by itself and might save you from SOME feedback (mostly because you have more linear control this way).
Feedback is purely an acoustic phenomena, so the ways to prevent it (in the field) are: changing distance (move mic away from speaker),. direction (point the mic away from the speaker) and frequency response (cut frequencies that are feedbacking back more than others - but use eq only after using the other options)
Looking in the room image, you can still do plenty there in order to reduce feedback by repositioning mics and speakers.
also, you did not mention which mic was feeding back, but lectern mics can be treated differently from the band and at the source, so you don't have to 'kill' the system and the band can have the system 'flat' (or less processed) - just run that mic through a bus and eq it for feedback there (and use channel eq for tonality)
I would not use the sine wave method, it's too risky and you easily burn a voice coil this way and the sine wave is external to the system, and is not a part of the feedback loop.
You might find some freqs this way that do actually feed back, but you can also find others that are just simply too loud in the system or might sound harsh to you (which is very common with lower end speakers that tend to be less linear in their behavior).
What you are doing here is more VOICING the system than eliminating feedback.
The right way to do it is to excite-scan the system using an eq with an open mic (the main mic usually) - this is how some feedback eliminators work (the non real-time kind), but only after setting the mics and speakers correctly.
I agree, there are some situations when setting the correct gain structure and even using graphics EQ isn't enough: for example, using lavalier mics for live sound reinforcement in a big bright room. The signal/noise ratio that you're getting from those mics is simply not enough to give you enough amplification before feedback occurs. The best solution I've found so far for this situation is setting a few additional speakers by the back wall, delayed accordingly. This way you can get more coverage across the room without the need of going too high on faders. Moreover, distant speakers are not prone to feedback as much as the frontals.
Another good option is using an automatic feedback destroyer - those devices are criminally underrated, in my opinion.
This is absolute GOLD!!! AMAZING bro I love your content! so transparent and honest!!
Thank you very much! As a sound engineer by training, this was one of the most concise and practical explanations anyone ever gave me! I wish we had touched on this the same way at sound school.
I literally went into this video like 'what is this guy gonna teach me...'. But holy sh*t i've never even tought about using this whole pink noise/ sine wave stuff for setting stuff up like this! Thanks man, this is genius!
So simple, yet so correct. You earned a sub today, my friend.
As usual, Daniel has come up with magnificent tips with very high practical relevence, which could make your mix sound always excellent. Me too was in the same line of thought, as some of the performers in our church have too low volume and they move out of proximity to the microphone. Thanks a lot gentleman for your extremely helpful videos. It's very sad that you are heavily underrated...
Another fantastic video Daniel!
+1
As a "journeyman" sound person with no formal training, I just recently discovered that I'd been running my speakers way too loud. Once I turned them down, it was easier to get all the levels I needed in the mix. But your explanation makes it easy to understand why. Thanks for all your content!
Thank you! This was a revelation!
All the tine i Find new information from your videos we appreciate what your doing
Love this Video. Never had the Idea of Sweeping trough the Frequency to detect problemeatic Areas. Will add this in my Workflow for SURE! Thanks a lot!
In my experience, there's a better option than sweeping the frequency in oscillator: open a mic, go to the channel parametric EQ, set a very narrow band and boost it around 12dB, then sweep it across the range. This way you'll easily find the frequencies that you need to cut. Just be careful to not blast people and not burn out your drivers: you have to feel the start of feedback and be ready to immediately bring the frequency down.
Great video! However, I do want to clarify one thing you said about gain. The reason why you would want to reduce gain to prevent feedback, is not because of the “sensitivity” of the mic (because I agree, that doesn’t make sense), but adding gain means adding noise! I’m not talking about the noise floor that the mic picks up, but actually adding more noise to the signal, from the preamp itself.
Noise is what makes mics feedback sooner.
I do agree that the better solution is to turn down speakers, but sometimes you don’t have the luxury of doing so, because to much room reverb, or the people in the back can’t quite follow anymore.
Anyway. Long story, but you did explained it perfectly.
Hello Daniel.. Thank you so much for your lesson about mixing we have learn many things from your youtube. We are from Nepal..!
God bless you Daniel
very good vidéo! part on the phase relation and monitor (wedges) placement would have been nice!
Its a little bit hard for non english speakers to understand, can you do a video of you showing how to do the whole process live?
Amazing video!! Do you have a similar stuff set on your x18?
In my church we use the mr18 and i have the main fader at -20db
Because there's no matrix i set the level of the speakers on the main fader
And similarly for floor monitors i set the level of the monitor on the master fader of the bus that is feeding that monitor
Hello Daniel. Thanks for the video. I have a question.
I play in a cover band, usually in small venues often with sound systems with less than enough power. We have live drummer, bass, guitar, sax and 3 lead vocal mics. Almost every gig mixing just boils down to trying to set the mics loud enough to be heard above the drums and not get feedback. But since speakers are not powerful enough and/or room acoustics is weird and/or speakers are placed right behind us usually feedback starts to build up. We are using the X Air 18.
So what would be your advice to make the situation better?
Thanks,
Alex
Turning down the speakers is not about making things quieter it's about proper gain staging and often times you can get more volume out of them before feedback that way
A very helpful thing is to use a ton of compression and use the make up gain on the compressor to push your mic louder if it's too quiet
And use compression on your main mix
If your mics are peaking at -18db and the overall mix is peaking at -6db i doubt you'll have any problem with the speakers not being powerful enough
And if you really wanna make sure it's not the speakers fault you can always use pink noise at -18db, if that's loud enough in the room then the speakers definitely have enough power
Hello Daniel. My Midas MR18 is arriving tomorrow. Do you have any videos on how to eq a very echoey room? A gymnasium, or small room where the wall is maybe 25-30 feet in front of you?
That's tough. It depends how bad it is. Sometimes you can't eq your way out of bad acoustics. But you'll probably have a frequency that is ringing way too much in the room. That's usually around 100 to 200hz so just use a microphone and you voice and perhaps turn on the analyzer on the eq and see what's ringing the most and cut it
Thanks Daniel. can i do this methoud not using maxtrix? (speaker knob turn it up/down not using matrix faders as matching the room levels) cuz i only mix it to main not sending it to broadcast, camera etc.
You can but it's less accurate with a knob on the speaker also you need to be in the middle of the room to judge how loud the speakers should be. If you're standing behind the speakers to turn the knob how will you know
Again wow!
Daniel, thanks for your video, with all respect I have for your time making and sharing useful videos but yes, Gain does change mV/Pa of the output stream of a mcrophone. That's perfectly in the electronics world but it would be wrong to estimate that you choose a dynamic mic over a condenser mic as much as a condenser with a small capsule rather than a large capsule. The gain level you apply determines the exact match of level os sensitivity of your microphones, i.e: if you get closer to the source you may want to lower your gain, why? not because only the acoustics behind but also because at the previous gain settings you had set your microphone for the distance it was set the sensitivity of it is far too high when closer to the source, and why, because of the acoustics behind. At every doubling the distance of a source you'll lose 6dB the same works the other way around with an increase inn volume perceived. Electronically that is sensitivy.
Great video! Can't wait to put this into practice at my next show. I have a question about applying EQ with the Graphic EQ you talked about at the end of the video. Are you inserting that Graphic EQ on the Main LR and not the Matrix?
On the matrix
The main LR mix shouldn't contain the room correction
@@danielkharrat That makes sense, thank you.
@@danielkharrat By the way, do you use this same method for ringing out monitors?
I do set the level for the monitor with the fader of the bus and then i turn up the microphone in that monitor and if it's not feeding back i swing the microphone close to the monitor facing it quickly and that way i can identify the frequency that will feedback and i cut it
That way i can turn up the mic pretty loud in the monitor without being afraid of a gigantic feedback
@@danielkharrat Thank you, I will give this a try tonight!
How do you deal with gain needing to change constantly? I feel like i set gain well at the beginning, but then something happens (either the speaker/singer gets further away from the mic and its quiet, or musicians change their volume.) Especially when mics are on stands (for instance our 2 main stage mics sm58 are on stands, and i need to get them to +38-40db on an x32), and even then i am barely hitting -18db
You mix with the fader not with the gain knob
Once you set the gain forget about it, don't touch it anymore unless it's clipping
If they get quieter, push the fader up
If your fader is all the way up to +10db you can use the makeup gain on the compressor to add level if you really need to
Also for an sm58 in my experience +35db of gain is plenty even for a quiet person
Regarding the musicians changing volume, that's a really bad habit that a lot of them does. What i do is on electronic instruments that have a volume knob, i will turn it all the way up and tell them to play the loudest thing they will play and then i set the gain. I never wanna be at the mercy of a careless musician that wants to be louder than everybody else.
Also it's good to politely communicate that to the musicians. Tell them that if they want to hear themselves louder they can tell you to send more of their channel to their monitor and not grab the volume knob because that will affect everyone else's monitors and the house mix and the broadcast mix. It's important that they understand this. But i personally make them turn it all the way up from the beginning so that they can't make it any louder later.
Also for people and mics, the most difficult thing about this is not the gear, it's communication. Sometimes people are difficult to deal with but try your best to (very politely) ask them to come closer to the mic and to speak into it.
The reason you're not getting enough input level even at +40db is that they are far and dynamic mics like the sm58 are not designed to work from that far away
Something i usually say to them is: "the mic is not magic, if you're speaking quietly you'll sound quiet no matter how much i turn you up. Imagine there are no speakers in the room, how are you gonna make people hear you? You gotta speak louder, right? And also please try to remember to speak into the microphone and to stay close to it"
Don't be shy to remind them of this when they forget because you're working with what they give you. If what they are giving you is not good, there's not much you can do on the mixer
Edit: if you really really need to change gain mid show you can use the mixing station app it has a re-gain feature i made a video about it. If you haven't watched it here it is: ua-cam.com/video/QnCNbAf4zOQ/v-deo.html
@@danielkharrat Thank you for this! Yeah most of our musicians don't seem to listen and always adjust volume. I will try the max volume approach and then there is only so much i can do if they are too quiet (i get this often too, either too loud or too quiet because they are not confident in what they are playing). Maybe we are using the wrong mics (pulpit sm58s) for the job, or maybe they are just very quiet/not singing.
We are hopefully going to do a system tune soon (as we have never done one) and i will try and set levels like you showed in this video. Hopefully this will give a better setting of the faders, as we usually have our main LR at -15/20
I have seen the regain video, and i do use mixing station so i will keep that in mind.
Thank you
I never thought about putting the main out speakers on matrix
Daniel, I hope you and your family are safe during these absolutely insane times. Do you have any tips for live drums in a very live, very loud room? Gates, comps, eq's, ... I need to showcase a female vocalist fronting drums, bass, 2 elec gtrs, keys, backing vox in a 300 seat venue that is basically a 100ftx100ft concrete box with a 22ft ceiling.
Oof um..it's not gonna be amazing but
Get your drummer a pair of hot rods drum sticks that will reduce the volume significantly
And also if you have headphones or in ear monitors, turn the drums lounder in his ears so that he wont hit the kit extra hard
Also you can try muffling the drums a little bit, maybe put some cloth inside the kick drum leaning against the resonant head to lessen the sustain
And ask the drummer politely to not hit too hard and explain why
Hi Daniel thanks for your informative video! I'm a DJ and I play live percussion (Tabla) while I DJ. I have feedback issues when I increase the MIC Volume on the Mixer. My microphone is connected directly on the mixer mic input. When I lower the Monitor Booth I get no feedback. But when i increase it because the at some time when there are more people I need to hear more thorough the Monitor speaker i increase it and at some point I get feedback. When I decrease it then I dont have any issues. Is there any improvement that I could do? Or do I have to decrease the monitor booth on the mixer everytime when I go to my tabla and turn the mic off when I dont use it anymore? Because some tracks are louder so I need more volume on the mic etc... Your help would help me alot!
You can put a graphic eq on your monitor and cut the frequencies that are feeding back in the monitor
Or if you don't mind using headphones or in ear monitors, use those instead of a loudspeaker monitor, and you won't have to worry about feedback
@@danielkharrat Thanks for you help! One more question: I don't hear my Mic input trough my monitors. Mic inputs just gets output though the main speaker (Master) I only hear the songs but not my mic input through monitors. (DJ Pioneer Mixer (A9 / V10))
@SINNO.OFFICIAL how are you feeding the monitors? Where are connecting them?
@@danielkharrat I'm connection them via MIC INPUT on the mixer directly (DJM A9 / DJM V10). But I dont see option where I can hear mic input through monitor. But i try in ear monitor bu i dont know if i hear it there...
@SINNO.OFFICIAL i don't know much about dj mixers but if you have a bus or aux send, send your music and you mic to it and then connect it to your monitor
nice explanation. feedback loop doesn't happen in electronics. it happens in the air. the only way you can stop air from moving is to remove thing that moves the air
Feedback also happens in electronics
If you send the effect returns channels back into the same effect bus that it's coming from you'll have Feedback internally in the mixer
Same for delay effects for example you have a Feedback knob that sends part of the signal that's coming out of the effect back into it
So Feedback is not exclusive to a microphone in front of a speaker
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Why send L/R to a matrix? Can’t you do this by not using a matrix for L/R and just adjust your speaker output knob, send pink noise to L/R at -18 db with the L/R faders down then slowly adjust the L/R faders until the pink noise is comfortable in the room….then do the frequency scan on L/R to soften the harsh freq’s? What advantage does L/R on a matrix providing?
Using a matrix separates the speaker processing from the mix
The LR bus is your mix
If you want to record it or send it to broadcast you don't wanna have on it all the ugly processing you do to fix the sound of the speakers in the room and have a very low level
So you do that on a matrix
And that way you can still eq and compress your entir mix (LR) to make it sound prettier independently from what's going on with the speakers
@@danielkharrat hey thank you for the additional information. I really enjoy your videos.
in my band we cut some frequencies
Bystanders are so annoying! Like, just let me do my job!
You speak way too fast for me to catch on, but good video.
You can use the playback speed funtion of YT to make it slower.
Dude, are you in prison??
Yes
@@danielkharratconvicted of too much helpful content!