Speaking of Shadow of War, I kinda like the three OC Nazgul, I'm on the fence about "Suladan", and I strongly believe that whoever decided two of them to be Isildur and Helm Hammerhand should be jailed for no shorter than the time Melkor was imprisoned in Valinor.
@@thomasalvarez6456 yep, he's definitely him. That's why I don't count him as an OC. I'm on the fence about him because I can see something like that happening to Ar-Pharazôn, and while I think the nine rings were already gifted at that time, at least it's not the War of the Last Alliance or the Third Age.
When I first saw Isildur in SoW I thought it was kinda cool, then I thought about it for a minute and I definetly dislike that decision, doesn't really make sense
I think that's one of the soberest, most well thought-out analyses to the subject I've heard. Actually singling out Khamul as the ONLY Easterling makes a lot of sense and I don't find that argument "iffy" at all, but rather quite insightful!
Indeed. Darth Gandalf had a video about the difference between easterlings and haradrim. Gondor viewed the former as a terrible nomadic horde, seemingly leaderless, like locust. The latter were more civilised, lived in kingdoms ruled by kings. So Khamul was likely akin to Genghis Khan of Middle-Earth. THE king who was able to unite and rule the east.
The Nazgul were corrupted 4,700 years earlier. That would be like us knowing the identity of nine guys other than the pharoah who were around during the time when the Pyramids were built.
@@Big_TexWell that does tend to change things. And Middle Earth has been keeping better records than us for longer. We still know who x and y were from 2,000 years ago in our own world. It's more easily explained by the fact that nobody knew they were going to become the Nazgul at the time. They would have been noted as nine unusually powerful figures, but even human sorcerers were never too uncommon to be noticed. And once they became the Nazgul, facial recognition scanners weren't going to work.
@@wompastompa3692fun fact, Imhotep was the name of the chancellor of the Pharaoh Djoser, as well as High Priest of Ra and likely the architect Djoser's Pyramid.
I love your reasoning here a lot. Making the distinction that Khamul would be the only Easterling is fun, and factoring in Sauron's foreign policy with the other 8 rings is inspired! Several other comments have discussed getting men from Eriador, Rhivanion, Wilderland, or Dale. To my mind, the only location that makes sense is Dale as there is evidence of a strong human civilization there.
My issue with the idea of Nazgul from Rhovanion is just Sauron almost wiped those Northmen out during the War of the Elves and Sauron. They would be weak and strategically useless to him.
Agreed. Three Numenoreans, one Easterling but five from the south seems unbalanced. Another certainly could have been one of the men of the mountains/Dunharrow. Others could also be from regions in the north not much mentioned.
I like that the rest of the Nazgûl’s identities are enigmas. Sometimes, leaving things out expands the world-building and lore because it encourages discussion and exploration. This extends to other Middle Earth mysteries, such as Tom Bombadil and the Nameless Things. And we can parallel this idea with our human history. Much of our ancient past is shrouded in mysteries, which drives the historian to research and explore. And I think Tolkien, being an academic and scholar, knew that applying this principle to his world would have the same effect.
A very interesting take on the identity on the various origins and backgrounds. That makes a lot of sense as Sauron is all about gaining conquest and dominion over middle earth and if he can achieve or further his goals by handing out rings on a strategic basis to strengthen his own forces or weaken those of his enemies, can totally see him doing just that.
Thanks for the video. I like you idea that "the Easterling" might imply Khamul was the only Easterling. But more than anything, I'm happy to see your sense of humor survived the comment sections of the last two videos intact. :P
No reason to think that one or two couldn't come from the north of Wilderland. Men were populous there for millennia. The ancestors of Dale, long split from the three houses which travelled to Beleriand.
Although human nature abhors a vacuum, I like that Tolkien left the identities of the Nazgul a mystery (for the most part not counting the Witch King and Khamul.) It shows that any and all men can be corrupted by Sauron and the power of the rings.
While not canon n any way, shape, or form, as a GM who runs Decipher's LOtR RPG, I use MERP's identities for the Nazgul. (I started running MERP, but converted my campaign to Decipher.)
I agree the Witch King’s Lieutenant Gothmog could have been a Nazgul. I mean Gothmog is just briefly mentioned, and no clear reason he’s not a Nazgul, seems it would fit the situation. Unless Tolkien says elsewhere that Khamul is the only one whose name is known.
Something I like about the "Shadow of" games is tnat Nazgul sisters feels very Sauron to me. Anyone that can kill a Nazgul is certainly powerful. So whenever one is killed you corrupt them with the left behind rings, corrupt the lands they bring them to. Either way Sauron wins.
I have absolutely no base for this, but I like to think that members of the different major groups of men all receive all a ring. Angmar, Rohan, Arnor, Gondor, Umbar, Harad, Rhun, Khand, and Dale
Strange how we never see any records of great kings and warriors becoming Nazgûl. Admittedly, many stories were likely lost over the thousands of years. Surely one of them fading would have been noticed. Rather than them being passed off as dying, which is what I suspect happened.
It makes sense, that 8/9 of them were from the south. Most middle-earth lore is written by elves and dunedain. SA Harad was a realm of the king’s men. If any lore about the Nazgûl was known, it perished with Numenor. It also makes sense that Khamul was the only known Nazgûl. Rhun was close to Rhovanion and dwarven realms, Also Saruman was out east in SA. He knows a thing or two.
This is how I view their origins too. Good video. I feel like we would have gotten more information had Tolkien lived long enough toundertake his tales of Eastern Middle Earth stories. I think the greatest tragedy in all of fantasy is not getting the tales of heroism, struggle and tragedy that must be hidden in the East and South.
I think Tolkien left enough clues that point to the Witch-King being a high Númenórean, likely in the court of Tar-Ciryatan. Possibly even a junior member of the House of Elros, with direct access to and influence over Tar-Atanamir as a child. And that would makes his repeated wars with the Dúnedanic remnants in Arnor and Gondor personal - he would see the descendants of the Faithful as traitors and renegades.
I'm not sure we can assume that Sauron gave the Seven Rings to the seven leaders of the seven Dwarf clans - the two clans who used to live in the Blue Mountains don't seem to have been independent entities after the First Age, when the Blue Mountains changed and partly sunk. Gandalf says that the Seven went to "Dwarf-kings" but doesn't elaborate, and neither the ruler of Belegost nor the ruler of Nogrod are ever called "king".
Tolkien wrote almost nothing on how the Rings were distributed, which is puzzling. Maybe there was still noteworthy and acknowledged nobility from Belegost and Nogrod living in Khazad-Dûm, but eh honestly it seems all a little contrived. Like, I'm impressed that Sauron would actually know that there are seven Dwarven clans in Middle-Earth. Not to mention that the dwarves of Durin's line already battled Sauron on behalf of the Noldor. Just how did he trick them into accepting these Rings I wonder
I like the theory that Khamûl was the only Easterling Nazgûl. Funnily, it also means that when Butterburr called them the "black men" the 5 Haradrim could actually have felt offended. And ShadowOfWar's interpretation is hilarious, it evokes an image in my mind, of a drunk guy stumbling through his room grabbing objects and tossing them in different places.
No, it seemed just to be a beneficial side effect, in fact Darth Gandalf has a video called "Rings of Power Success or failure" which explains it better.
This is honestly something that the Rings of Power Season 2 could explore very well if it chose to (though it probably won’t). You have an entire open plot to be written right here about a man turning evil and accepting a Ring Of Power after once being great.
I know it is techinacally debunked, but my headcannon always has been that Ar Pharazon was actually the Witch King. I know it isn't completely lore accurate, but it is a cool thought anyway
The realization that we don't even know the Witch King's is haunting. And yet it really says something about good and evil in Middle Earth. While the evil mem caused great pain in Middle Earth, their names are forgotten. Who they were as people are forgotten. All that remain are the Nazgul. Yet those who are good, they retain their names and personhood, even if Death takes them.
1. Adunaphel Black Numenorean, female , born S.A. 1869 and the 7th 2.Akhorahil Black Numenorean, male, S.A. 1888, The 5th 3. Dwaw of Waw (southeastern Endor), Wolim, male, born S.A. 1949, the 3rd 4. Hoarmurath, Urd (North Central Endor), male, Born 1954, the 6th 5. Indur Dawndeath, Kiran, Southern most Endor, male, born S.A. 1955, the 4th. 6.Khamul the Easterling, Womaw Eastern most Endor, male, born S.A. 1744, the 2nd. 7. Uvatha the horseman, Variag in Khand, male, born S.A. 1970, the 9th 8. The witch king, aka Er-Murazor, Numenoreon, male born S.A. 1820, the 1st. 9. Ren the unclean, Chey (eastern Ered Harmal), male, born S.A. 1969, the 8th. Sourced from "Lords of Middle Earth Vol. 2 The Mannish Races."
I'm 99% certain one of them would have been a King of the White Mountains (WM). Firstly, we know that at least one of them became a king, and the only king (non Numenorean) mentioned as existing at any time in Middle Earth in the Second Age was the King of the WM in the time of Isildur so perhaps one of his predecessors could have taken one of the nine. Secondly, at the time of the Last Alliance, the Kingdom of the White Mountains must have been reasonably sizeable and powerful as Isildur made an oath with them for support - we're not talking about a couple of villages here! So they seem to have lived on both sides of the White Mountains and must have been quite advanced for their time: they built the Stair of the Hold; erected the stones in Dimholt; and built the Dark Door, Paths of the Dead, and the temple off it. The White Mountains also occupied a strategic place after the War of Elves and Sauron. If he needed to reinvade Eriador or attack Lindon with a large army he would have had to go between the WM and the Misty Mountains. He would need the King and population of the WM on his side: to stop them attacking his army from the flank; use them as part of his army or for spies; gain provisions for his army; and stop them reporting to the Elves. Similarly, if he was attacked from Eriador any armies could have come through the Rohan Gap. So, what would be one way to achieve this control? Give the King a ring of power. Indeed, it is mentioned that they served/worshipped Sauron in the Dark Years (probably between SA 1000 and the War of the Last Alliance). For that to be the case it is more than likely Sauron met them at some point and had significant interaction with them. As to the other Nazgul, apart from Rhun and Harad, it's also possible he gave one to someone amongst the Northmen to undermine their alliance with the Dwarves of Khazad Dum.
I have a theory that Ciryatur, the Numenorean admiral who lead Minastir's fleet to Middle Earth to the aid of Gil-Galad became one of the Nazgul. Specifically the Witch King. Or perhaps the Witch King was a Numenorean who established a dominion that was more inland. Maybe even in Northern Eriador, to protect those lands from Orcs that fled into what later became Angmar. I think story wise, it would be more in line with Tolkien's work for Numenor's decline that began with Tar-Ciryatan and Tar-Atanamir's reign to have been caused by the restlessness of the Numenoreans, rather than say one of the Nine.
Adventures in middle earth, the first dnd adaptation of middle earth, based on the first edition of the one ring roleplaying game, portrays the nazgul in a cool way. Basically function and vibes. One of them is "the messenger of dol Goldur", for exemple, because its atributed to him going back and forth from dol goldur to bara dur and other places to give orders and info. It has the vibe of the classic black rider you see during the search for the ring (adventures in mifdle earth is set right after the death of smaug). Theres another called "the shadow of myrkwood" which stalks the forest trying to stir trouble in the communities that live nearby so they fall to sauron later on more easily. Theres also another one fucking worh Dale and Erebor and so on. They act as kinda the bbeg of the written adventures. Each of them have a subtle personality that inplies an origin bit they never go too far into it, so it remains open and misterious
Not exactly canon (probably closer than Shadow of War), But I quite Morgomir from Battle for Middle Earth II: Rise of the Witch King. I don't know: I just like the name and the personality he brought to the game as an anti-Aragorn or anti-Boromir.
I have a question. In ME there is the contept that when you use youre power, you get weaker. Like melkor did. So could the you use the one Ring so much, that you use all the power which sauron placed in the one ring in the frist place?
Sauron put his power into the Ring to avoid Morgoth's mistakes. Morgoth tried to control the very matter of Middle Earth, thus weakening himself. Sauron preserved his power by putting it into the Ring, and using the other rings to corrupt and control the races of Middle Earth by dominating their minds and wills. He always sought to dominate minds even without the use of the rings, like how he caused Denethor to despair when Denethor used his Palantir. You can't 'use up' the power of the Ring or any of the Ruling Rings. The only disadvantage was that by putting a lot of his native power into the One Ring, Sauron was vulnerable to being destroyed if the Ring was, so he made it virtually impossible to destroy.
One Ring didnt have any power of its own. Rather, it could improve ones own power like an “amplifier”. Thus when a wearer uses its power, its his own power that is spent not Rings power
I was under the impression that power doesn't just deplete from being used, but it can be transferred over to other beings. Melkor wanted powerful servants, and ended up siphoning his own power into his creations over time, eventually leaving him a mere shadow of his former self. It might be possible to do the same with the power stored within the ring, but I'd imagine that it would require a very powerful being like one of the Istari to achieve this, if it's even possible for anyone but Sauron himself. I don't think Bilbo and Frodo did anything to deplete the ring's power by wearing it to become invisible.
@@ZagskragI think you'd have to be a more powerful being than Sauron himself to actually drain the Ring of its power, so it would have to be someone in Valinor, like Eonwe or one of the Valar. Sauron is one of the mightiest of all the Maiar and certainly the mightiest in Middle Earth. Other beings in Middle Earth are capable of mastering the Ring, however, that is to say, using it to become more powerful than Sauron without it, like Gandalf, Galadriel or Aragorn. They are already powerful beings, and wearing the Ring would combine Sauron's native power with their own. Gandalf says he would become much worse than Sauron if he was given the Ring.
Given that Khamul was able to assume the status of second in command of the Nazgul in competition with two Numenoreans, its pretty clear he must have been a truly exceptional individual. I think my only other comment is that I suspect that there were probably northmen amongst the Nazgul as well as Haradrim - given Sauron's aim was to dominate the entire race of men, it seems likely he would tried to spread the rings out. Obviously if that was the plan it worked poorly given that Rhovanion was mostly a bulwark against Sauron in the Third Age.
I am into Numenorean conspiracy theories! and I wanna bring up Tar-Atanamir: he is the first Numenorean king who held onto power until death instead of passing it to his heir, he is also the first that refused to give up his life willingly and instead clung to it until the last moment, he was greedy and oppressed the men of middle earth, it is also said that during his reign the shadow first fell upon numenor and men started speaking openly against the ban of the Valar, and he was the last king of numenor that "died" before the nazgul appeared (in an earlier version he was even said to die the same year the nazgul first appear, S.A. 2251). If you were to make list of things that you would expect from a king that was corrupted by a ring of power, that basically would be it. Of course, there is the matter of his recorded death... but hey that's what conspiracy theories are for! right?
I would argue that the majority of the Nazgul came from the south. Although I agree that Khamul must have been the only Nazgul from the East, I would wager that there must have been only 1 Nazgul that originated from the South (apart from the Numenoreans). Judging by the dwarven Rings, Sauron tried to influence those people who were either openly against him or neutral perhaps. Those people were close to the North-West were the Elves held sway. So, I imagine Sauron handing over the majority of the 9 Rings to the pre-Gondorian populations of the White Mountains, to the northern Vales of Anduin and maybe Nurn as well. Nevertheless, I find the notion that Sauron and the Numenoreans are engaged in a Cold War in Harad, trying to gain influence over as many people as possible, rather enjoyable.
Did the 16 rings have any special powers or were they just lying and promised great power but couldn’t actually do much? We don’t hear anything cool that they did except thwt the dwarves learned crafting. But it seems to be a great missed opportunity for some really cool stuff for them to do before being taken over by the rings.
Have you looked into the backstory of games workshop version of the ringwaiths? Its my understanding that they had everything greenlit by the tolken estate. Atleast in the early days (oh lord 20 years ago D=)
The unwelcome truth is: They remain obscure. Their rise from obscurity was tied to Sauron. In the strictures of an adventure novel they were the enemies. People who you, the hero, were warned to even talk to. And even if they deigned to talk tou you it would be commands and demands. Frodo talks to the witch king and is relegeated to keep silent. The other nazgul are stooges and do not talk. They act, at the behalf of Sauron, and often their action is successful. But often not. The search for the shire is a testament of this. This is a marvel. To Sauron and the witch king the location of a properous region in north middle earth remained in obcurity for years. These timeless beings had to have only a sketchy idea of how the land looked and how it changed over the years. The search for Baggins or the shire is legendary and a bit ridiculous. This means that being timeless is not an advantage. We can only imagine the frustration of the Nazgul in their great fortress for the failure to find the shire, and the increased testiness of the dark lord over the inability of the Nazgul.This is both sad and relieving.
I mean suladan is a numeronean ruling Harad so he's got a pass Also theres this guy from the rise of the Witch king, Morgromir, who suposedly was the WK liutenant in the war of Angmar and a numeronean nazgul, but somewhy had a body during that time
Question: if Sauron had succeeded and the elves had taken the 16 and come under his sway, how would that have looked? He wouldn't have wringwraiths but I wonder how that mental subjugation would manifest and if physical changes would occur too? Would they also have powers etc etc. No one seems to touch on that what if. Could even be enough to do a video on?
Personally I see it that way: - 3 obviously Númenóreans, I imagine each would be an explorer/lord from a diffrent part of the coastline - Khamûl, of the Easterlings around the Sea of Rhûn, I personally think Khamûl could be one of the first ones to get the ring, giving the fact that the Dark Years start soon after the War of the Elves and Sauron, during the Dark Years the Northmen were extremely opressed by the Easterlings, and I think this could be related to a rise of a steppe empire that Khamûl could be in charge of, personally I view that he might have even created something of a sort of a Khaganate which span from the foothills of Orocarni to the forests of Rhovanion Now here guesswork gets more interesting - I imagine that one of the Nazgûl could a Haladin related man of Calenardhon, we know that men from there were under the influence of Sauron, I think that during the War of the Elves and Sauron, the Dark Lord could create a realm there that would be a mean to unite many of those tribes living there and perhaps a monarch of it was given a ring of power, in that case he might have been the first to be given such, maybe even still during the war while Sauron retreated through Calenardhon back to Mordor, I know that many people think Nazgûl are mostly of the East and why would even Sauron give a ring to a pre-Númenórean, but keep in mind Sauron wanted to control Eriador, and giving a ring to a man of Calenardhon (settled by the Haladin related peoples [many of which also living in the southern parts of Eriador]) would be a fantastic way to consolidate power there and make a foothold for the conquest of Eriador (we obviously know these plans didn't come to fruition as Sauron was engaged in fending of Númenórean influence in Harad and over the time we know that the influence of Sauron would wane significantly in Calenardhon as this influence isn't mentioned during the reign of Gondor and Riddermark over the region) - another of the Nazgûl I imagine might have been of Far Harad (persumably from a nation far south were the Mûmakil come from) in order to secure control over the region far away from Mordor and make it hostile to Númenórean expansion - similarly to the previous Nazgûl I think another one could be an Easterling from the furthest east, beyond Orocarni (from the region Tolkien once regarded as China) in order to control the vast people over the Red Mountains, I think it would fit perfect with my previous view on Khamûl, as he would impose Sauron influence on the territories west of Orocarni while the Nazgûl from Middle-Earth's "China" would impose this influence east of Orocarni - another one I think could be of Khand, altough this is debatable, I always see the people of Khand as quite Independent and autonomous so I guess this would be a great way to control this people which is very close to Mordor, and with a ruler there Sauron could have a powerhouse which would hold sway in the region between the vastness of Rhûn and Harad respectively and this is probably that Sauron would also care about and something that Variags would be much better for as it would be a hard task for an already vast Khamûlid Khaganate with the heartland placed in a completely diffrent spot (around the Sea of Rhûn) - the last one I imagine could be of a nation somewhere in east Harad, I think it could be a fitting choice giving that the entirity of Rhûn would be under Saurons sway while in Harad there would be a lot of nations to yet consolidate power over, and as the Númenórean Nazgûl could have power of the western coastline of Haradwaith and the far Haradrim would Control the pinpoint in the south of it the last of the Nazgûl would rule over an area over the eastern Coast of Haradwaith
@@DarthGandalfYT I'm so glad you are extremely respectful of your viewers and often dedicate them a lot of time, this is something extremely valued, keep your great work!
Since we are talking in fiction i had always a doubt because its been i long time since i read the simarillion. Ar Paharazon died during the sinking of Numenor right? Could be possible that he had one of the Nazgul rings and became one of them (for me if its one it has to be the witch king) because the nazgul also drowned on the river in fellowship of the ring, but they did no died. Is it """""possible"""" or is something in there thata i had forgotten over the years, or something i am missing? Btw srry if there is something bad written, im not a native speaker hehe
@@steveluis7929 If memory serves me right, another major factor why Ar-Pharazon couldn't be a Nazgul: he was burried in Valinor by Eru to await the end of the world there.
*Helm the Hammerhand? Isildur!?!?!* Well. I guess it is possible that Nazgûl have gotten killed and replaced with new Nazgûl, especially if Sauron keeps their Rings with him in Barad-dûr, so that the rings don't get lost when one of them is killed. Now, questions: First, is it possible that Sauron gave any Rings to Númenorean colonists on the eastern coasts of Middle Earth? We do know that the Númenoreans went there, although the evidence seems to suggest that they weren't as successful, made less effort, or both, to colonize the east. The reason why I ask is because I wonder if this could be the reason why Sauron apparently failed to dominate the southern coast / the southern coast remained in service to Númenor. Another possibility that I can imagine is that the Númenorean governors ceased to be followed by their subjects once they became wraiths, which may have happened quite quickly, depending on how evil they were. Perhaps this also explains why Sauron didn't offer Ar-Pharazôn a Ring? Second, how do we know that all nine of the Nazgûl were male? Is that specified anywhere? I am skeptical that JRRT's extensive use of the word "Men", capitalized, specifically refers to *men,* to the exclusion of women. "Men" in this case refers to the Germanic root, in which a woman would be referred to as a "she-man", still a type of Man.
General question, you often cite non-canon sources for speculation or comparison with the history or different interpretations of it - however, you never mention any of Games Workshop’s Warhammer Lord of the Rings range which has its own extensive models and non-canon lore for a large swathe of the legendarium. Seems strange to me that you would talk about MERP or shadow of war, but not mention the significant lore and ideas put behind the MESBG Ringwraiths that GW created.
I sort of agree but my take is that Tolkien coded certain evidence into his life as hints without anything explicit but then changed his mind (or left it ambiguous) as it would cause problems for the storyline of the Second Age. We might have discussed this before as I remember your username!
Speaking of Shadow of War, I kinda like the three OC Nazgul, I'm on the fence about "Suladan", and I strongly believe that whoever decided two of them to be Isildur and Helm Hammerhand should be jailed for no shorter than the time Melkor was imprisoned in Valinor.
Suladan seems to be Ar Pharazon but they couldn’t get the rights for him to made Suladan.
@@thomasalvarez6456 yep, he's definitely him. That's why I don't count him as an OC. I'm on the fence about him because I can see something like that happening to Ar-Pharazôn, and while I think the nine rings were already gifted at that time, at least it's not the War of the Last Alliance or the Third Age.
When I first saw Isildur in SoW I thought it was kinda cool, then I thought about it for a minute and I definetly dislike that decision, doesn't really make sense
@@agustingomez1575Yeah Also Ar Pharazon is alive in the caves of the forgotten.
Tossed out into the void they must be!
I think that's one of the soberest, most well thought-out analyses to the subject I've heard. Actually singling out Khamul as the ONLY Easterling makes a lot of sense and I don't find that argument "iffy" at all, but rather quite insightful!
Indeed. Darth Gandalf had a video about the difference between easterlings and haradrim. Gondor viewed the former as a terrible nomadic horde, seemingly leaderless, like locust. The latter were more civilised, lived in kingdoms ruled by kings. So Khamul was likely akin to Genghis Khan of Middle-Earth. THE king who was able to unite and rule the east.
@@frggdeckkkydexhhgg Funny because my first thought was Khamul was akin to Atilla. Same vibe.
I like these ideas that Khamul was akin to a Genghis Khan or Attila the Hun type leader.
The Nazgul were corrupted 4,700 years earlier. That would be like us knowing the identity of nine guys other than the pharoah who were around during the time when the Pyramids were built.
Well except we don’t have any 5,000 year old elves running around who could relay the info from personal experience.
Just get the book of the dead and wake one of them bums up. Just make sure it's not Imhotep.
@@Big_TexWell that does tend to change things.
And Middle Earth has been keeping better records than us for longer. We still know who x and y were from 2,000 years ago in our own world.
It's more easily explained by the fact that nobody knew they were going to become the Nazgul at the time. They would have been noted as nine unusually powerful figures, but even human sorcerers were never too uncommon to be noticed.
And once they became the Nazgul, facial recognition scanners weren't going to work.
@@wompastompa3692Hahaha I was thinking exactly that when I wrote the comment.
@@wompastompa3692fun fact, Imhotep was the name of the chancellor of the Pharaoh Djoser, as well as High Priest of Ra and likely the architect Djoser's Pyramid.
I love your reasoning here a lot. Making the distinction that Khamul would be the only Easterling is fun, and factoring in Sauron's foreign policy with the other 8 rings is inspired! Several other comments have discussed getting men from Eriador, Rhivanion, Wilderland, or Dale. To my mind, the only location that makes sense is Dale as there is evidence of a strong human civilization there.
My issue with the idea of Nazgul from Rhovanion is just Sauron almost wiped those Northmen out during the War of the Elves and Sauron. They would be weak and strategically useless to him.
Imagine being the Nazgul singled out for the nickname 'The Unclean' 🤢
Just because he forgot to buy toilet roll that one fateful day, and his 8 flatmates do not let him live it down for several millennia...
That's what you get for not showering.
I like to think he was one of the Nazgul sent to Dol Guldur because Sauron couldn't stand his stench and regretted turning him into one.
I like your reasoning although I do think Sauron would have recruited at least one Nazgûl from the Men living in Eriador or Rhovanion.
Agreed. Three Numenoreans, one Easterling but five from the south seems unbalanced. Another certainly could have been one of the men of the mountains/Dunharrow. Others could also be from regions in the north not much mentioned.
@@danielkorladis7869One from the Men of the Mountains is certainly a possibility.
Perhaps there was no kingdom powerful enough at this time in Eriador or Rhovanion, to justify a ring for the king?
I like that the rest of the Nazgûl’s identities are enigmas. Sometimes, leaving things out expands the world-building and lore because it encourages discussion and exploration. This extends to other Middle Earth mysteries, such as Tom Bombadil and the Nameless Things. And we can parallel this idea with our human history. Much of our ancient past is shrouded in mysteries, which drives the historian to research and explore. And I think Tolkien, being an academic and scholar, knew that applying this principle to his world would have the same effect.
I don't watc Tolkien videos for new information as much as fun individual takes from unique content creators.
Well said brother and DarthGandolf is one of the best on UA-cam
I watch for the amazing artwork...
And because my friends hate me banging on about Tolkien!!
The Nazgul where obviosly Palpatines clones.
Somehow they returned
A very interesting take on the identity on the various origins and backgrounds. That makes a lot of sense as Sauron is all about gaining conquest and dominion over middle earth and if he can achieve or further his goals by handing out rings on a strategic basis to strengthen his own forces or weaken those of his enemies, can totally see him doing just that.
I requested this video topic in an earlier video comment,THANK YOU FOR THIS!
It’s nice to know that the great ones are listening to our requests.
No mention of LotR SBG Ringwraiths? Shame... Many battles fought by using The Shadow Lord or The Undying have a solid place in my memory.
Thanks for the video. I like you idea that "the Easterling" might imply Khamul was the only Easterling.
But more than anything, I'm happy to see your sense of humor survived the comment sections of the last two videos intact. :P
Your videos on Nazgul are among my favourite! I love this aspect of LOTR lore
No reason to think that one or two couldn't come from the north of Wilderland. Men were populous there for millennia. The ancestors of Dale, long split from the three houses which travelled to Beleriand.
could also have one that was from Dunharrow
Although human nature abhors a vacuum, I like that Tolkien left the identities of the Nazgul a mystery (for the most part not counting the Witch King and Khamul.) It shows that any and all men can be corrupted by Sauron and the power of the rings.
While not canon n any way, shape, or form, as a GM who runs Decipher's LOtR RPG, I use MERP's identities for the Nazgul. (I started running MERP, but converted my campaign to Decipher.)
I use the MERP identities too. I have no problem with them as I think they are rich and varied, and I'm careful to let folks know they are NOT Canon.
I agree the Witch King’s Lieutenant Gothmog could have been a Nazgul. I mean Gothmog is just briefly mentioned, and no clear reason he’s not a Nazgul, seems it would fit the situation. Unless Tolkien says elsewhere that Khamul is the only one whose name is known.
Something I like about the "Shadow of" games is tnat Nazgul sisters feels
very Sauron to me.
Anyone that can kill a Nazgul is certainly powerful.
So whenever one is killed you corrupt them with the left behind rings, corrupt the lands they bring them to.
Either way Sauron wins.
I have absolutely no base for this, but I like to think that members of the different major groups of men all receive all a ring. Angmar, Rohan, Arnor, Gondor, Umbar, Harad, Rhun, Khand, and Dale
Strange how we never see any records of great kings and warriors becoming Nazgûl. Admittedly, many stories were likely lost over the thousands of years. Surely one of them fading would have been noticed. Rather than them being passed off as dying, which is what I suspect happened.
It makes sense, that 8/9 of them were from the south. Most middle-earth lore is written by elves and dunedain. SA Harad was a realm of the king’s men. If any lore about the Nazgûl was known, it perished with Numenor. It also makes sense that Khamul was the only known Nazgûl. Rhun was close to Rhovanion and dwarven realms, Also Saruman was out east in SA. He knows a thing or two.
This is how I view their origins too. Good video.
I feel like we would have gotten more information had Tolkien lived long enough toundertake his tales of Eastern Middle Earth stories. I think the greatest tragedy in all of fantasy is not getting the tales of heroism, struggle and tragedy that must be hidden in the East and South.
I think Tolkien left enough clues that point to the Witch-King being a high Númenórean, likely in the court of Tar-Ciryatan. Possibly even a junior member of the House of Elros, with direct access to and influence over Tar-Atanamir as a child. And that would makes his repeated wars with the Dúnedanic remnants in Arnor and Gondor personal - he would see the descendants of the Faithful as traitors and renegades.
I'm not sure we can assume that Sauron gave the Seven Rings to the seven leaders of the seven Dwarf clans - the two clans who used to live in the Blue Mountains don't seem to have been independent entities after the First Age, when the Blue Mountains changed and partly sunk. Gandalf says that the Seven went to "Dwarf-kings" but doesn't elaborate, and neither the ruler of Belegost nor the ruler of Nogrod are ever called "king".
But it makes the most sense really. Why give them 7 rings otherwise?
Tolkien wrote almost nothing on how the Rings were distributed, which is puzzling. Maybe there was still noteworthy and acknowledged nobility from Belegost and Nogrod living in Khazad-Dûm, but eh honestly it seems all a little contrived. Like, I'm impressed that Sauron would actually know that there are seven Dwarven clans in Middle-Earth. Not to mention that the dwarves of Durin's line already battled Sauron on behalf of the Noldor. Just how did he trick them into accepting these Rings I wonder
I like the theory that Khamûl was the only Easterling Nazgûl. Funnily, it also means that when Butterburr called them the "black men" the 5 Haradrim could actually have felt offended.
And ShadowOfWar's interpretation is hilarious, it evokes an image in my mind, of a drunk guy stumbling through his room grabbing objects and tossing them in different places.
Did Sauron know/expect that they would turn into wraiths?
No, it seemed just to be a beneficial side effect, in fact Darth Gandalf has a video called "Rings of Power Success or failure" which explains it better.
@@ryancarter1080 I'll definitely check it out, thanks
If a Nazgul dies, can the Ring he wore enslave another person? Can you "eject" a current Nazgul from his Ring if you master the One?
Thanks for this, it was fun
This is honestly something that the Rings of Power Season 2 could explore very well if it chose to (though it probably won’t). You have an entire open plot to be written right here about a man turning evil and accepting a Ring Of Power after once being great.
Can we please just not mention that show
Agree on all counts.
King Earnur of Gondor was tricked into meeting with the Witch King for single combat and was never seen again. He could have become one
I know it is techinacally debunked, but my headcannon always has been that Ar Pharazon was actually the Witch King. I know it isn't completely lore accurate, but it is a cool thought anyway
The realization that we don't even know the Witch King's is haunting. And yet it really says something about good and evil in Middle Earth. While the evil mem caused great pain in Middle Earth, their names are forgotten. Who they were as people are forgotten. All that remain are the Nazgul. Yet those who are good, they retain their names and personhood, even if Death takes them.
1. Adunaphel Black Numenorean, female , born S.A. 1869 and the 7th
2.Akhorahil Black Numenorean, male, S.A. 1888, The 5th
3. Dwaw of Waw (southeastern Endor), Wolim, male, born S.A. 1949, the 3rd
4. Hoarmurath, Urd (North Central Endor), male, Born 1954, the 6th
5. Indur Dawndeath, Kiran, Southern most Endor, male, born S.A. 1955, the 4th.
6.Khamul the Easterling, Womaw Eastern most Endor, male, born S.A. 1744, the 2nd.
7. Uvatha the horseman, Variag in Khand, male, born S.A. 1970, the 9th
8. The witch king, aka Er-Murazor, Numenoreon, male born S.A. 1820, the 1st.
9. Ren the unclean, Chey (eastern Ered Harmal), male, born S.A. 1969, the 8th.
Sourced from "Lords of Middle Earth Vol. 2 The Mannish Races."
A cool list , i wonder if they each took a 💍 ring or earned it somehow. From a 1987 rpg book, interesting,
The Witch King of Angmar became called that for having made war with folks for 800 years in that area right ?
I'm 99% certain one of them would have been a King of the White Mountains (WM). Firstly, we know that at least one of them became a king, and the only king (non Numenorean) mentioned as existing at any time in Middle Earth in the Second Age was the King of the WM in the time of Isildur so perhaps one of his predecessors could have taken one of the nine.
Secondly, at the time of the Last Alliance, the Kingdom of the White Mountains must have been reasonably sizeable and powerful as Isildur made an oath with them for support - we're not talking about a couple of villages here!
So they seem to have lived on both sides of the White Mountains and must have been quite advanced for their time: they built the Stair of the Hold; erected the stones in Dimholt; and built the Dark Door, Paths of the Dead, and the temple off it.
The White Mountains also occupied a strategic place after the War of Elves and Sauron. If he needed to reinvade Eriador or attack Lindon with a large army he would have had to go between the WM and the Misty Mountains. He would need the King and population of the WM on his side: to stop them attacking his army from the flank; use them as part of his army or for spies; gain provisions for his army; and stop them reporting to the Elves. Similarly, if he was attacked from Eriador any armies could have come through the Rohan Gap. So, what would be one way to achieve this control? Give the King a ring of power.
Indeed, it is mentioned that they served/worshipped Sauron in the Dark Years (probably between SA 1000 and the War of the Last Alliance). For that to be the case it is more than likely Sauron met them at some point and had significant interaction with them.
As to the other Nazgul, apart from Rhun and Harad, it's also possible he gave one to someone amongst the Northmen to undermine their alliance with the Dwarves of Khazad Dum.
I have a theory that Ciryatur, the Numenorean admiral who lead Minastir's fleet to Middle Earth to the aid of Gil-Galad became one of the Nazgul. Specifically the Witch King. Or perhaps the Witch King was a Numenorean who established a dominion that was more inland. Maybe even in Northern Eriador, to protect those lands from Orcs that fled into what later became Angmar. I think story wise, it would be more in line with Tolkien's work for Numenor's decline that began with Tar-Ciryatan and Tar-Atanamir's reign to have been caused by the restlessness of the Numenoreans, rather than say one of the Nine.
Adventures in middle earth, the first dnd adaptation of middle earth, based on the first edition of the one ring roleplaying game, portrays the nazgul in a cool way. Basically function and vibes. One of them is "the messenger of dol Goldur", for exemple, because its atributed to him going back and forth from dol goldur to bara dur and other places to give orders and info. It has the vibe of the classic black rider you see during the search for the ring (adventures in mifdle earth is set right after the death of smaug). Theres another called "the shadow of myrkwood" which stalks the forest trying to stir trouble in the communities that live nearby so they fall to sauron later on more easily. Theres also another one fucking worh Dale and Erebor and so on. They act as kinda the bbeg of the written adventures. Each of them have a subtle personality that inplies an origin bit they never go too far into it, so it remains open and misterious
Not exactly canon (probably closer than Shadow of War), But I quite Morgomir from Battle for Middle Earth II: Rise of the Witch King. I don't know: I just like the name and the personality he brought to the game as an anti-Aragorn or anti-Boromir.
There's nothing ( as far as i know) they says that all of the Nazgul appeared simultaneously, so their date of births may spread over a longer time.
I have a question. In ME there is the contept that when you use youre power, you get weaker. Like melkor did. So could the you use the one Ring so much, that you use all the power which sauron placed in the one ring in the frist place?
🤔 Hmmmm..
Sauron put his power into the Ring to avoid Morgoth's mistakes. Morgoth tried to control the very matter of Middle Earth, thus weakening himself. Sauron preserved his power by putting it into the Ring, and using the other rings to corrupt and control the races of Middle Earth by dominating their minds and wills. He always sought to dominate minds even without the use of the rings, like how he caused Denethor to despair when Denethor used his Palantir.
You can't 'use up' the power of the Ring or any of the Ruling Rings. The only disadvantage was that by putting a lot of his native power into the One Ring, Sauron was vulnerable to being destroyed if the Ring was, so he made it virtually impossible to destroy.
One Ring didnt have any power of its own. Rather, it could improve ones own power like an “amplifier”. Thus when a wearer uses its power, its his own power that is spent not Rings power
I was under the impression that power doesn't just deplete from being used, but it can be transferred over to other beings. Melkor wanted powerful servants, and ended up siphoning his own power into his creations over time, eventually leaving him a mere shadow of his former self.
It might be possible to do the same with the power stored within the ring, but I'd imagine that it would require a very powerful being like one of the Istari to achieve this, if it's even possible for anyone but Sauron himself. I don't think Bilbo and Frodo did anything to deplete the ring's power by wearing it to become invisible.
@@ZagskragI think you'd have to be a more powerful being than Sauron himself to actually drain the Ring of its power, so it would have to be someone in Valinor, like Eonwe or one of the Valar. Sauron is one of the mightiest of all the Maiar and certainly the mightiest in Middle Earth.
Other beings in Middle Earth are capable of mastering the Ring, however, that is to say, using it to become more powerful than Sauron without it, like Gandalf, Galadriel or Aragorn. They are already powerful beings, and wearing the Ring would combine Sauron's native power with their own. Gandalf says he would become much worse than Sauron if he was given the Ring.
Given that Khamul was able to assume the status of second in command of the Nazgul in competition with two Numenoreans, its pretty clear he must have been a truly exceptional individual.
I think my only other comment is that I suspect that there were probably northmen amongst the Nazgul as well as Haradrim - given Sauron's aim was to dominate the entire race of men, it seems likely he would tried to spread the rings out. Obviously if that was the plan it worked poorly given that Rhovanion was mostly a bulwark against Sauron in the Third Age.
I only know that if Tolkien would't have invented the Nazgul, LOTR probably wouldn't have taken off. Aren't they everybody's favourite?
I am into Numenorean conspiracy theories! and I wanna bring up Tar-Atanamir: he is the first Numenorean king who held onto power until death instead of passing it to his heir, he is also the first that refused to give up his life willingly and instead clung to it until the last moment, he was greedy and oppressed the men of middle earth, it is also said that during his reign the shadow first fell upon numenor and men started speaking openly against the ban of the Valar, and he was the last king of numenor that "died" before the nazgul appeared (in an earlier version he was even said to die the same year the nazgul first appear, S.A. 2251). If you were to make list of things that you would expect from a king that was corrupted by a ring of power, that basically would be it. Of course, there is the matter of his recorded death... but hey that's what conspiracy theories are for! right?
The Grim Southron
I would argue that the majority of the Nazgul came from the south. Although I agree that Khamul must have been the only Nazgul from the East, I would wager that there must have been only 1 Nazgul that originated from the South (apart from the Numenoreans).
Judging by the dwarven Rings, Sauron tried to influence those people who were either openly against him or neutral perhaps. Those people were close to the North-West were the Elves held sway. So, I imagine Sauron handing over the majority of the 9 Rings to the pre-Gondorian populations of the White Mountains, to the northern Vales of Anduin and maybe Nurn as well.
Nevertheless, I find the notion that Sauron and the Numenoreans are engaged in a Cold War in Harad, trying to gain influence over as many people as possible, rather enjoyable.
Did the 16 rings have any special powers or were they just lying and promised great power but couldn’t actually do much? We don’t hear anything cool that they did except thwt the dwarves learned crafting. But it seems to be a great missed opportunity for some really cool stuff for them to do before being taken over by the rings.
I believe the witch king could be the father of Tar Minastir, Isilmo
Have you looked into the backstory of games workshop version of the ringwaiths?
Its my understanding that they had everything greenlit by the tolken estate. Atleast in the early days (oh lord 20 years ago D=)
The unwelcome truth is: They remain obscure. Their rise from obscurity was tied to Sauron. In the strictures of an adventure novel they were the enemies. People who you, the hero, were warned to even talk to. And even if they deigned to talk tou you it would be commands and demands. Frodo talks to the witch king and is relegeated to keep silent. The other nazgul are stooges and do not talk. They act, at the behalf of Sauron, and often their action is successful. But often not. The search for the shire is a testament of this. This is a marvel. To Sauron and the witch king the location of a properous region in north middle earth remained in obcurity for years. These timeless beings had to have only a sketchy idea of how the land looked and how it changed over the years. The search for Baggins or the shire is legendary and a bit ridiculous. This means that being timeless is not an advantage. We can only imagine the frustration of the Nazgul in their great fortress for the failure to find the shire, and the increased testiness of the dark lord over the inability of the Nazgul.This is both sad and relieving.
I mean suladan is a numeronean ruling Harad so he's got a pass
Also theres this guy from the rise of the Witch king, Morgromir, who suposedly was the WK liutenant in the war of Angmar and a numeronean nazgul, but somewhy had a body during that time
Question: if Sauron had succeeded and the elves had taken the 16 and come under his sway, how would that have looked? He wouldn't have wringwraiths but I wonder how that mental subjugation would manifest and if physical changes would occur too? Would they also have powers etc etc. No one seems to touch on that what if. Could even be enough to do a video on?
One might have been Darth suraman.
9 losers that's who they were... Imagine falling victim to a godlike being's insidious plot, am I right??
Yup I'm sure Sauron had to ask hundreds of Men until he found some willing to do it, t was too obvious
Temptation and sin was too much for them
Personally I see it that way:
- 3 obviously Númenóreans, I imagine each would be an explorer/lord from a diffrent part of the coastline
- Khamûl, of the Easterlings around the Sea of Rhûn, I personally think Khamûl could be one of the first ones to get the ring, giving the fact that the Dark Years start soon after the War of the Elves and Sauron, during the Dark Years the Northmen were extremely opressed by the Easterlings, and I think this could be related to a rise of a steppe empire that Khamûl could be in charge of, personally I view that he might have even created something of a sort of a Khaganate which span from the foothills of Orocarni to the forests of Rhovanion
Now here guesswork gets more interesting
- I imagine that one of the Nazgûl could a Haladin related man of Calenardhon, we know that men from there were under the influence of Sauron, I think that during the War of the Elves and Sauron, the Dark Lord could create a realm there that would be a mean to unite many of those tribes living there and perhaps a monarch of it was given a ring of power, in that case he might have been the first to be given such, maybe even still during the war while Sauron retreated through Calenardhon back to Mordor, I know that many people think Nazgûl are mostly of the East and why would even Sauron give a ring to a pre-Númenórean, but keep in mind Sauron wanted to control Eriador, and giving a ring to a man of Calenardhon (settled by the Haladin related peoples [many of which also living in the southern parts of Eriador]) would be a fantastic way to consolidate power there and make a foothold for the conquest of Eriador (we obviously know these plans didn't come to fruition as Sauron was engaged in fending of Númenórean influence in Harad and over the time we know that the influence of Sauron would wane significantly in Calenardhon as this influence isn't mentioned during the reign of Gondor and Riddermark over the region)
- another of the Nazgûl I imagine might have been of Far Harad (persumably from a nation far south were the Mûmakil come from) in order to secure control over the region far away from Mordor and make it hostile to Númenórean expansion
- similarly to the previous Nazgûl I think another one could be an Easterling from the furthest east, beyond Orocarni (from the region Tolkien once regarded as China) in order to control the vast people over the Red Mountains, I think it would fit perfect with my previous view on Khamûl, as he would impose Sauron influence on the territories west of Orocarni while the Nazgûl from Middle-Earth's "China" would impose this influence east of Orocarni
- another one I think could be of Khand, altough this is debatable, I always see the people of Khand as quite Independent and autonomous so I guess this would be a great way to control this people which is very close to Mordor, and with a ruler there Sauron could have a powerhouse which would hold sway in the region between the vastness of Rhûn and Harad respectively and this is probably that Sauron would also care about and something that Variags would be much better for as it would be a hard task for an already vast Khamûlid Khaganate with the heartland placed in a completely diffrent spot (around the Sea of Rhûn)
- the last one I imagine could be of a nation somewhere in east Harad, I think it could be a fitting choice giving that the entirity of Rhûn would be under Saurons sway while in Harad there would be a lot of nations to yet consolidate power over, and as the Númenórean Nazgûl could have power of the western coastline of Haradwaith and the far Haradrim would Control the pinpoint in the south of it the last of the Nazgûl would rule over an area over the eastern Coast of Haradwaith
That was an interesting read. Always cool to hear other peoples thoughts!
@@DarthGandalfYT I'm so glad you are extremely respectful of your viewers and often dedicate them a lot of time, this is something extremely valued, keep your great work!
DG is the OG
Since we are talking in fiction i had always a doubt because its been i long time since i read the simarillion. Ar Paharazon died during the sinking of Numenor right?
Could be possible that he had one of the Nazgul rings and became one of them (for me if its one it has to be the witch king) because the nazgul also drowned on the river in fellowship of the ring, but they did no died.
Is it """""possible"""" or is something in there thata i had forgotten over the years, or something i am missing?
Btw srry if there is something bad written, im not a native speaker hehe
not really looking at timeline there is like 1000 years between appearing of nazgul and Ar Paharazon
@@peger ouuu, so thats it XD. I see now
@@steveluis7929 If memory serves me right, another major factor why Ar-Pharazon couldn't be a Nazgul: he was burried in Valinor by Eru to await the end of the world there.
*Helm the Hammerhand? Isildur!?!?!*
Well.
I guess it is possible that Nazgûl have gotten killed and replaced with new Nazgûl, especially if Sauron keeps their Rings with him in Barad-dûr, so that the rings don't get lost when one of them is killed.
Now, questions:
First, is it possible that Sauron gave any Rings to Númenorean colonists on the eastern coasts of Middle Earth? We do know that the Númenoreans went there, although the evidence seems to suggest that they weren't as successful, made less effort, or both, to colonize the east. The reason why I ask is because I wonder if this could be the reason why Sauron apparently failed to dominate the southern coast / the southern coast remained in service to Númenor. Another possibility that I can imagine is that the Númenorean governors ceased to be followed by their subjects once they became wraiths, which may have happened quite quickly, depending on how evil they were. Perhaps this also explains why Sauron didn't offer Ar-Pharazôn a Ring?
Second, how do we know that all nine of the Nazgûl were male? Is that specified anywhere? I am skeptical that JRRT's extensive use of the word "Men", capitalized, specifically refers to *men,* to the exclusion of women. "Men" in this case refers to the Germanic root, in which a woman would be referred to as a "she-man", still a type of Man.
Evil females are quite rare in Tolkien. While there is no hard proof, I think Tolkien would have mentioned it if one the Ringwraiths was female.
General question, you often cite non-canon sources for speculation or comparison with the history or different interpretations of it - however, you never mention any of Games Workshop’s Warhammer Lord of the Rings range which has its own extensive models and non-canon lore for a large swathe of the legendarium.
Seems strange to me that you would talk about MERP or shadow of war, but not mention the significant lore and ideas put behind the MESBG Ringwraiths that GW created.
MERP tends to be the most popular of the non-canon legendarium content.
Tar-Atanamir may be the Witch-King
There isn’t any evidence he was however. It would be obvious if he had a ring of power at any point. You can’t hide it, unless you’re an elf lord.
He would never have given up the throne even when turning into a wraith
I sort of agree but my take is that Tolkien coded certain evidence into his life as hints without anything explicit but then changed his mind (or left it ambiguous) as it would cause problems for the storyline of the Second Age. We might have discussed this before as I remember your username!
Khamul the FOOL.