Got a C128 in late 1985, mostly for the extra RAM and BASIC 7.0 over the 64. I upgraded to a 128DCR in 1989. CP/M mode got me through college. C128 mode w/VDC got me into shell accounts on the early internet, and was my primary BBS terminal. And yes, C64 mode had games, but this computer was so much more than just a game console.
What you are describing is basically a laptop with no screen. I actually used a laptop in this way for a year or so. I broke the screen and couldn't afford to fix it, so I simply removed it, and used the laptop on a desk with a monitor and a mouse. I remember thinking at the time that it was quite similar to using my old Atari ST, since the keyboard was integrated, and the CD drive was on the right side of the machine where the floppy had been on my ST. The styling was obviously not like that of a vintage machine, but the form factor made it a sort of spiritual successor.
I had a C128 DCR which ran for almost 20 years non stop controlling a 8 bit relay board in an early way of smart home control running a BASIC program. That unit never failed. I loved it!
I really, really loved the DCR I got about 10 years ago. I stumbled across a site that was closing out the 128 DCR internal power supplies, so I purchased a couple of them to have as spares. Really enjoyed tinkering with it, adding a small exhaust fan by the PSU, doing some internal upgrades (video memory), JiffyDOS ROMs... Such good times. Great machines that never realized their market potential.
AWESOME video!!! I have learned a few things that I didn't know about my C128DCR which I have been calling a C128D since I reacquired one about 7 months ago. My first one was also a C128DCR that I bought at Fork Polk LA after getting back from 2 year in Bamberg West Germany. During my 2 years in West Germany, I had left my 1983 Xmas C64 at my mom's house and got myself an SX-64 soon after getting to West Germany.
Yesterday I opened my C128D for the first time. I was a bit surprised what I saw there, because it was different from most pictures I have seen. The floppy drive is enclosed in a metal housing and so is the power supply. Above the mainboard is a big metal sheet that has lots of holes for ventilation and serves as heat sink for several ICs. Also, I expected one manual applied wire on the PCB, but instead I got 4 (!). Two on the top and two on the underside. It may have a plastic case but it feels like a tank.
I have a large Commodore collection but the 128D is one I don't have. I love my DCR and my flat 128. Wife keeps asking if I have enough Commodore stuff and I quickly reply NO! What kind of a question is that?! Do you have enough shoes woman? Hmmm. Some guys hit midlife crisis and need a fancy car or a boat or a motorcycle. Me, I'm happy with more Commodores and games and stuff! :) Viva la Commodore!
I came across a book called "On The Edge", which is a great history of Commodore, and it said that the 128DCR was metal because it was cheaper. probably because Commodore also made things like filing cabinets, so could make the case themselves.
Yes, as the name suggests, the goal of the CR model was Cost Reduction. Commodore was also making PC clones and the desktop Amigas in metal cases, so it was cheaper for them to put the 128D in a metal case as well.
Yep, probably saved a few bucks with the lower part count as well. Compared to the regular D, the DCR has all components consolidated on one board, including the 1571 disk drive controller. Not sure how many other computers are out there with 3 8bit processors (Z80, 6502 and 8502) all on the same board
@@TheRetroChannel None that I know of, although there was a time when an Apple LaserWriter printer had a more powerful CPU and more RAM than the Mac computers it was connected to.
@@nopochoclos But injection molds are more expensive. At least they were in the 70s and 80s. It actually started with the early PETs, they had beautifully designed plastic case made by Japan division, but ended up going with the metal case because of the price. That's also mentioned in the book "On The Edge".
They're all beautiful machines. The DCR has the advantage of the metallic case, plastics get brittle with age (not to mention, yellow!). The footprint of the regular 128 is huge, indeed, but who cares about practicality, its desirability is immense!
Fantastic machines. I just put a noctua fan in my 128d and it's quiet as a mouse. 128d wins hands down for me. FWIW, the SD2IEC you have only plugs into the tape port for power. You can either mod it to get power externally, or buy a version that uses an external power source.
Used to own a flat and a DCR back in the 90's. Second hand market was ripe for the picking ~1995. I had 2 ext. 1571, 2 ext 1581 and an REU256. The VDC output was EGA compatible and a lot of PC users where upgrading to VGA at that time, so i could pick them up for free. I loved coding on that computer. I learned Assembler/Machine Code on the C-128. The build in machine code monitor made debugging a breeze. Every once in a while i find myself missing these days. Chatting with people over packet radio on the 128, trying to dial up BBSs and see what boxes are still there from my hopelessly outdated BBS list from an 80's C64/128 magazine :-D Never got my hands on a 1572. The ext. double drive, the build in copy commands etc. where written for.
I bought my C128 (flat) in 1993, it was the first thing I worked and saved for and still have it today. At the time I had two breadbins that both had different problems, so I basically just wanted a C128 because it was a C64 that looked like an Amiga. 😀 I bought another one with a 1571 at the markets a few years later (late '90s I think) for about $5. Circa 2005 I needed space and sold it with a bunch of games for next to nothing. 😫 I also had picked up a C128D at the markets cheap too (don't remember how much exactly, probably under $10). It wasn't getting much use and was more of a museum piece. It was in the shed at one point and got water damage. I sold it about 10 years ago not working, wouldn't even power up. Even though it didn't work I regret selling it.
I actually have and use a mid-sized dining room table in the corner of one bedroom to accommodate 2 "flat" C128s placed side-by-side with 2 original C= monitors, 4 external 1571s, 4 1581s and CMD external drives... plus 2 RAMLinks and 1 SuperCPU64... I've sent photos of this setup to friends who've never seen C128s in use before. The sleek design of the flat C128 looks even more impressive when 2 full systems are arranged with all the drives in 2 vertical stacks in the center between the monitors. It's kinda tricky arranging all the drives of both sizes with device numbers 8, 9, 10, and 11 - but it's doable and running my choice of either Wheels or CP/M with 4 active drives is a lot of fun! :)
I have a flat one and a DCR, the latter one being my daily driver. I like the form factor and that it's more silent than the plastic D, but also much more sturdy. It's also great with the 1541U2, which causes some trouble on the flat C128. I like to use the virtual drive 9 and write disks directly onto floppy. As far as games go, I've never encountered any problem so far, everything works smooth. And even a nice amount of demos, also newer ones, work with it. By far not all of them, but enough to keep me amazed. Together with the 1901, this is the perfect Commodore-setup for me personally. Thanks for comparing the three models and differences, great video!
The SD2IEC only plugs into the cassette port to tap into a 5V power connection. You can mod the connector on an existing SD2IEC to tap into another source or build your own and power it with a cell phone charger. Or... if you're fortunate enough to have an SD2IEC where the cassette connector isn't part of the housing you could take a Dremel tool to it.
The flat C128 is definitely the quietest of the lot, and given the age of the computers, it's the easiest in terms of swapping power supplies and disk drives when things go wrong. I've still got my original C128DCR - they don't have a fan but they do make a "hum" when they are operating. Also it is a pain if the 1571 dies inside and has to be fixed / replaced. That said they are pretty robust and I've used mine for a long time. Interestingly, none of the C128s are as reliable as the C64, which might be due to the fact that they are just more complex computers.
You took me down the memory lane. it was 1986 and I got the 128D for my 12th birthday. I remember reading the help documentation booklet, learning programming in Basic, playing games. 😊
I had the flat. Back when this was released, pretty much all desks had a type of mini-hutch that your monitor would sit on. Every computer for home was flat. The TI Color, TI 99/4A, Atari 800, Coleco Adam, etc. So desks were all accommodating. I was hoping to hear more about the Z-80B on all the units. I spent half my time in CP/M mode. At 2MHz vs. 1MHz for the 6510, it was just fun to play with. I thought the D and DCR would be more business, and at the time there was a transition from big and bulky TRS-80 systems to something smaller for business. I would think the metal case was driven not by FCC, but either business rules or ISO rules. A metal case has more shielding to protect from outside magnetic, solar flares, and other radio interference that causes errata. FCC is typically only concerned with outbound (generated) radio interference. I didn't see a crystal on the board. I overclocked my PC-AT from 6 MHz to 8 MHz by going to radio shack and getting a crystal. I wonder if this could be done to these systems.
Yeah we had a hutch type desk back in the day. The 8but guy video I linked in the description includes an interview with Bil Here where he talks about the FCC issue or non issue Overclocking the majority of these old systems isn't possible with a simple crystal swap. Most of them use the same clock for CPU and video display. So a faster clock would completely screw up the video output as the display wouldn't be able to handle the signal
Years and years ago I scored myself a C128D from Germany. Buying hardware from Germany is better for me since I then won't have to use an adapter for the PSU. Now, the price for this computer were ready good due to problems with the NETZEIL. Yeah, my German is non-existent but it means the PSU is faulty. So I looked up this and that for a replacement and found I could build it myself and weeks later the computer arrived and I didn't really have time to look at it just then and... It's still sitting on a shelf. I still wish to fix it. Hopefully I'll manage to do so sometime.
A great visual comparison! And since you asked... :-) Classic ("flat"/"slab") C128 ALL THE WAY! I would happily accept a "D" model, but am not inspired to buy one -- not just because they're ridiculously expensive here in Canada. I actually consider the integrated PSU and Diskette Drive to be a liability: not just from a maintenance & repair standpoint, but also because in this day and age, I may very well want to plug in a 1541-II (or a Pi1541!) as default Device 8 on any given day. Also, the space saving design of the "D" is only better if you have room to give it a dedicated desk. If you're like me and swap your regular C64 for a 128 as needed, I'd much rather push my monitor back a few inches than pick it up and rearrange everything. On the DCR's issue of constrained access to the cassette port, I wonder if a cassette port voltmeter from Electroware would fit in there; it measures 4.9cm and has a pass-through. Otherwise, it seems the market might benefit from someone making a custom pass-through PCB for that slot. Finally, it's nice to see an ARMSID appear here. I replaced the (working!) SIDs in both of my C128s with ARMSID, which doesn't bother me since the C128 was never meant to be an "actual" C64 (just "C64 compatible"). The ARMSID not only removes one major source of heat, but its ability to emulate the 8580 on demand, in combination with a 64KB VDC upgrade, presumably allows the regular C128 to run software written specifically for the C128D(CR) as intended. -- JC @ Basic Bites
the internal drive is switchable to another deivce #(solder pads inside),and even then you can also change it in software. the psu is very robust in the DCR,and easily repairable if it does fail. The SID in the 128 is 9V,not 12v like the older SID and doesn't run hot as the older SID. The DCR is a fine machine.
I had a flat 128 with an 8580 SID. It was the revision that nearly eliminated the volume register click, which made sample playback very quiet. It also had the VIC-IIe revision that produced sub-pixel white dots when changing the border/background color registers, causing a lot of "snow" in games and demos that used raster effects.
I own two 128DCR machines and one C128. In my opinion, the 128DCR with its metal case was the best unit made. I added a quiet fan and JiffyDos and it makes the perfect retro computer.
On my 128D, I replaced the fan with a Noctua fan and used the in line noise reduction cable. It's now quieter than my PC. It's lucky that the fan power connector still compliment modern fans. But make sure you get the fan with the right voltage. I used: Noctua NF-A6x25 FLX
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There is an SD2IEC version powered from the User Port. It can be used without problems with all models from the family: C64, C128, C128D and C128DCR.
Thanks for the comparison of the 3 models. I have a C128 and C128D CR. My preference goes to the C128D CR. Never understood the attraction to the 128D.
I just acquired a 128D, with keyboard along with a bunch of C64s and an A500. Been too afraid to touch it yet, as well as caught up testing all the 64s. Your vids are helping me get my head around the hardware and learn how to approach the testing and repairs.
I have a 128DCR, it has the space to add the fan and I added it with a good quality Sunon but I made a circuit that automatically regulates the fan rpm according to the ambient temperature, it takes a little regular work because you have to do it when they happen a few hours using it but once regulated it does not bother or reach the maximum rpm. The power supply in your 128 DCR does not seem to be the original, can you tell me what you put in it? Greetings from Argentina and congratulations for such a good explanatory video.😃
That's a great idea having a temperature sensor to regulate the fan RPM. I wonder if there's a simple, almost universal module that can do the same. So many systems out there with fans that just run at full speed that would benefit from something like that. Hmm, another thing to look up on AliExpress 😄
In the C128D you can replace the fan with a Noctua fan and a voltage reducer, will get the benefits and very low noise. Or even at 12v you have the Noctua NF-A6x25 FLX, quite silent at 19dB. I have the C128 and the C128Dcr.
For me it’s the 128D. The flat 128 kinda screams “cheap Amiga”. The 128D really sets itself apart with its Desktop style. And if I’m going purely C64, then it’s Breadbin for me.
I have the C128DCR and really love it. Have to repair the famous head damage on the drive. Maybe you have an idea how to do this? Hard to find replacement parts nowadays.
I would love either of the 128D models, simply because moving the keyboard doesn’t require you to move the whole computer, however they are even more expensive and difficult to get hold than the flat version, so I’m sticking with the flat one I already have (with the 64K VRAM upgrade).
I managed to get my hands on both the Flat and the DCR. I like the wedge style of the former and the metal case of the latter, and I'm not really bothered by the lack of a keyboard cubby or handle. The fact each has its own SID and VDC models makes them just different enough for me.
There are many various sd2iec designs.The one I have allow external power source (like from any USB charger), some use joystick port for power. Once I've even seen battery powered one.
Back in the early 80's these were heaven, but today, they are so rancid I couldn't even stand to look at mine.. which I haven't touched in 25 years and got free as trash along with a pet, c-64's, vics, and a whole garage full of other 8bits. I went from a 64 to a Macintosh Se, which was like going from an abandoned obsolete system to almost absolute Nirvana..t he only thing better was a Macintosh II or IIfx. Yeah, I can't stand to watch this video any longer... lol... too much heartbreak, too many memories, too many dead end roads and shattered dreams.
Yep, from a C64 running GEOS with a Joystick and 1541 with Commodore Printer to a Macintosh SE with ADB keyboard and ADB mouse and 20mb SCSI harddrive and Hypercard/Microsoft Word/MacPaint and a StyleWriter II was indeed going from trash to Nirvana... Yell at me all you want that I'm wrong... but look at the the Amigas North American Sales numbers... nobody bought it because... it just wasn't all that. If it had been, we would of been all over it. Great hardware at a mmm maybe good price, but a bad joke for operating system and software. Well, there was no killer app for it. The IBM had Wordperfect and Wordstar and and dBase and Lotus Spreadsheet... the Mac had MacWrite and Pagemaker... MIcrosoft Word and Microsoft Excel. Whole shops set up with PCs or Macintoshes and made money... doing Business apps or desktop publishing. But what did the Amiga have going for it? Nothing. A bouncing ball demo and some full color games. It was a Sega Genesis with akeyboard :)
I luckily own all of them, nice restaurated and i am very happy with every type. The DCR has a much better build from the quality side of view and it might be more reliable too. But anyway, it is retro stuff and brings a lot of fun to play with 😀
Incase it wasn't absolutely clear he motherboard in the C128 and 128D is the same (did you spot both say (Chicken Lips) "Commodore C128" in the middle and both have the hole in the middle for the C128 case post)... just a couple of components were changed to suit the respective case. As for choosing which one is for me... I've got all 3... gotta Catch'em ALL! 😁
Why not just turn up the volume on the radio or TV to drown out the fan noise? I guess I'm just used to having standalone hepa filters around the house always producing ambient fan noise. Thanks for the video.
Hey mate, I imagine you are looking at camera feedback as you record this? It is quite uncanny how you just touch the parts without ever looking at them, instead being locked into the camera... for example the handle at 02:30
I have both Commodore 128 and Commodore 128DCR. I prefer DCR since it's got the built-in C1571 disk drive and power supply. I wish they had made more programs/games for C128 back in the day, instead of making it for more popular C64 due to its larger user base... Alas...
I remember Kmart Australia sold the 128D for a while. The 128 was cool and all but I, like most people, were pretty happy with the c64. And although the Amiga wasn't as huge in the Australian market as the c64 was it was still fairly popular and considerably more popular than the 128 and its variants.
Yeah. When I had finally saved up enough money to buy my first C64 I noticed the C128 flat was on special at KMart (Same price as the C64). I asked why and they said they were discontinued and don't waste your money on them and get a C64. Not knowing any better and being new to computers, I did. To this day I kick myself and wish I had bought the C128 instead. Such is life.
I have a 128DCR with the warranty sticker still in it. Have not opened it yet. Got the German Keyboard for it. I hope to get to it one of these days. (Gee Son someday this will all be yours)
Commodore 128 DCR owner here. It's my favourite 8-bit out of the ones I own. The keyboard feels great and it's nice and quiet. The main problem I have with it is it's inability to have the internal drive number changed. But that's far less of an issue than I've been told. I just changed my pi1541 to be device 9 and that works fine for most software. The other issue I have is the picture quality isn't as sharp as the Commodore 64 breadbin I have, even when plugged into the same model Commodore monitor.
128D, with the fan replaced with a Noctua (or similar) modern fan, with a resistor inline, to slow it to about 50% of its max speed. Its a bare min mod, and solves the only real issue.
Buying a D model is much and much more expensive compared to a flat model. Also it is fun to "setup" your c128 flat, connect drives, power supplies, monitors etc. It's part of the deal ... c128 time for daddy!
I Had the 128 flat. I didn't do it, but the answer for where to put the monitor is to make a stand that will fit over the 128, 3 pieces of MDF or some such will do it, and you could, at a pinch make it accommodate the disk drive too. Like you I sold my system, boo hoo, it was a 1 x C128 flat, Phillips 80 col green screen, rs232 adapter, star DM printer, 2 x 1541 FDD and 1 x SFD1001 FDD with 110 to 240 power supply and interface, Superbase128 and Superscript 128. I have never stopped regretting selling it and all I could get (at the time) was £45 on eBay. Sigh. Even my shiny new iMac and 2010 MacPro cheese grater and Dell machines haven't taken the pain away. Poor me :).
My dude, very cool video. However, FYI, you have an unfortunate spelling mistake on your thumbnail. Just thought you might appreciate the info. Cheers.
My uncle got a C128; I can't remember if it was a DCR or a flat, but I wasn't jealous for long as I got an Amiga 500 a couple of years later (I had a choice between going to Florida/Disney 1200 miles away and an Amiga and I chose Amiga!). Games never really embraced the C128 (Hey, Ultima IV had music. Wow). But the Amiga, while not as prolific as the C64, had quite the eye candy selection and my college A3000 (25Mhz 030 with 5MB of RAM) got me into everything else including the early internet after I upgraded to 18MB ram and a Picasso 2 graphics card. I didn't get a PC until 1999 and largely switched to OSX in 2007 (2012 Maci Mini Server upgraded to 16GB RAM and a 2TB SSD can still run Windows 10 today, but it gets little use compared to macOS, although that will change as browsing support dies for it, but it still serves whole house media). It's probably time for a new computer anyway. I have PS4/5 for gaming so there's been no rush as my phone can do most things now anyway.
Actually the design of the c128 flat as you call it, was designed longer so the monitor can actually sit on it and only the keyboard would be showing, see Bill Herd videos about the C=64 40th birthday he teslls us all about it.
The C-128D and DCR also had more RAM available for the misbegotten 80-column chip, allowing for a richer color palate in 80-column mode. The flat c-128 can be upgraded with more video memory if you're handy with the ol' soldering iron.
I'm pretty sure the plastic case D's only have 16K, just like the flat. Also I don't know if it allows more colours, perhaps more video modes, which could be used to simulate more colours. But yeah simple upgrade with a soldering iron or there's a few drop in boards out there
Hah, all good. There's a list on Zimmer's with all the changes. I didn't go into it because it's unlikely most people will trigger one so they probably would never notice
That 64k of video RAM was used by BASIC-8 software. Also used by various software protection removers such as... damn, gotta get back to you, Software Support International does not appear to exist on the internet. But I have an old catalog at home. Ah! Maverick 5.0! By SSI.
I had a 1084 monitor with my Amiga and I deeple, deeply regret doing it away. Still got the Amiga though, along with 2 C64s (83 & 84), a VIC-20 and a 32k Mitsubishi MSX machine.
I bought mine back when I was living in Oregon(USA of course) and it is a metal case, I just checked it a couple of minutes ago and yeh, it's metal. It was only called C128 D, not DCR. I hadn't even heard of the DCR until recently watching UA-cam videos on the subject. Can't get it out to check the label as there is too much stuff that would have to be moved first. Note: the metal case still looks good, the keyboard not so much as it has severely darkened. Last I used it was to hook up a Win 95 computer to it to transfer some files using the modem to modem at 1200 baud. (Win95 has a terminal program Hyperterm) It worked well back then, although I'm looking to recap it before trying anything now, and it needs the 1571 head replaced(I have a spare) So it should be good.
Back in the days i had the C128D (plastic case) with a 1901 monitor and an external 1571 and the REU1700. With this setup i made my first steps with C programming in CP/M. Before this i started with the C64 Basic and machine language. When i could choose, i would try to get the same setup as i had.
for the tape port, instead of extending the serial cable just make an extension for the tape port, even maybe in an SLI style connector so that the SDIEC sits atop the case on the right hand side
The 128 and 128d has a white wire I believe from the z80 chip to correct the ted chip timing issue at the foot of the board (from memory sorry) I dont see it on the dcr model. Is that a fix ? Or did I just not see it ?
I currently own 3 C128s... all of them are "flat". One of them has the 64K VDC upgrade. The other 2 will too, soon. :) I owned a C128DCR in the mid/late 1990s and *hated* how it was very difficult to use in conjunction with my RAMLink and SuperCPU64. Since both extend its depth considerably, it was very difficult to find a desk which accommodated them. I ultimately *did* find one with a raised shelf for the monitor - but it was still not ideal for daily use. The RAMLink and SuperCPU64 have useful switches, buttons and lights on them which were difficult to reach and impossible to see while plugged in behind the C128DCR *and* under the monitor shelf. I still have and use my SuperCPU64 and RAMLink with my flat C128 with 64K VDC upgrade (since I have IPaint and IPaint graphics which require it). Having external 1571s and 1581s plus an FD-2000 and an HD-100 which still works like new... yes, it needs room but at least I can access and see everything easily when needed.
For every 40 or so C64's i come across, i find one C128 "Flat". Ive read there were 6 or so million 128's sold and over 20 million C64's... Considering the 128 was only on sale for a couple of years (if that) and it came out at the beginning of the 16bit era, i really doubt these figures. Ive never even seen one 128D in the wild. The 128 i bought i still have it but yet to see its potential - being 4 computers in one (if you include GEOS) is very unique for any computer of any era really.
I don't recall the fan in the 128D I had was noisy. Perhaps simply a case of old age and mechanical wear? Replacing the fan and/or installing a fan controller shouldn't be that difficult. I'd sure love to get one again.
Yeah this one is loud (although it didn't really come across in the video), and that's after cleaning out the fan. I could replace it with a Noctua or similar but it would still be sucking in dust
Ha, did I spot a SMD IC on the DCR? This must be the one of the earliest Commodore machines that use SMD. The Amigas had to wait until the 90ies if I am not wrong.
i just bagged a C128 Flat with the PSU off ebay for $150 all that was wrong was Bad Basic ROMS swop the fan out with a new low noise Noctua and it only needs that cassette port for power
It's a C64 in an aftermarket case. The cases were made in South Australia shortly after Commodore released the 64C. It was like an upgrade for those who already had a breadbin but wanted a 64C style without buying another 64
For extra completeness there's also the somewhat rare 128CR model, different board in the wedge case. It does have a few interesting differences to the other ones even though it's largely based on the 128DCR schematic. The DCR board was probably designed by C= Germany in Braunschweig, which makes it a bit interesting that the DCR was the one sold in the US and Europe has a lot of the plastic 128Ds. Obviously the correct answer is to own all of them, wonderful machines.
Thanks, yes I certainly considered a noctua. There are a couple of other reasons I want to replace the whole thing besides the noise. But I'll explain all that in the next C128 video
Cool, Mark! I'd never seen the 128D (plastic case before). I had a 128 (which I bought pretty early on at a discount (for either 170 or 230 USD, I don't recall) because it was a store "demo" model (no box). I sold the 128 with a 1571 and GEOS 128 to a college friend for $400 USD c. 1988 to put the money toward an Amiga 500. Ha, I haven't seen him since college, but just found him on facebook - maybe worth checking-in on whether he still has it! :) For me, the only compelling reason to have the 128 (rather than 64) was its sexy look and to run GEOS 128, while keeping C64 compatibility. (Many of us booted CP/M once and never again.) I used the 128 heavily for school work for a year, so any of these would have been equally good. I did ogle the professional looking C128DCR (which we just called the 128D in the U.S.), but there was no reason to buy it knowing the Amiga 500 was coming.
Haha, yeah I think everyone with a 128 has fired up cp/m mode once (and only once). Dare I say your friend like most people would have discarded or sold the 128 many moons ago, but who knows. At the moment I think there's about 50 c64 games that can take advantage of the 2mhz mode on the 128. Some of them smooth out gameplay, others just improve loading times. Not sure if there's more out there that just hasn't been documented yet, or perhaps we'll see some patches for other games that could benefit from the bump in speed
@@TheRetroChannel Re: my friend, I'm curious what the mindset was at the time to acquire the 128 then. I was going over to a friend's house all the time who had an Amiga 1000, ran a BBS, and we did all these cool things like build a room-sized XY mode oscilloscope with a laser and speakers plugged into the Amiga's stereo outputs. There was so much buzz about an affordable Amiga [500] that it was "easy" to leave the [also great] 128 behind. Thanks again for the tour - lots of reworking of the 128 by the C= engineers!
I only have a 128 Flat I bought from Germany and it’s a great machine, I would never part with it. I fitted a SIDFX board to mine and now it has dual 6581’s so you can play some of the stereo tracks people have written.
I bought the early version of the C-128 and got many years of use out it. But the power supply died and I never got around getting it replaced. Maybe one day I'll get the supply replaced. I loved using this machine. Another else use the Pocket Software series in the native C-128 mode? I really got a lot of use out of the database and word processor.
There was not a lot of software that was exclusively for the 128. It would have been too limiting to software sales to write software that would not also run on the C64. If you have a C64, or 64C, you're not missing much by not having a C128.
Great comparison video! Living in America, I think I'd go for the 128,, because I don't think the other 2 models have a cartridge slot; although I think they all look nice. Is the 1571 disk drive more durable then the original 1541 disk drive? I don't think it's any faster, although you can still use something like the Epyx Fast Load cartridge with it.
Yes The 1571 is a lot better than a 1541 drive - for a start it’s double sided, so twice the capacity. It has burst mode built in, which is effectively a fast loader, though it only works as one on a C128. It acts as a 1541 on C64s and VIC-20s and sadly on a C128 in C64 mode. The other big difference is that it can read MFM disks, ie ones from non-commodore machines if you have appropriate software. That means you can read, for example CP/M disks from Kaypro machines, and even MSDOS disks.
Lack of a built in auto boot DOS, lack of a hard drive, and slow processor speed is what killed the Commodore line. Those three things killed it. The PC AT and Mac got them right and thereafter it became an infinite race of CPU speed increases, hard drive size increases, and OS upgrades.
The c128 willl autoboot off floppy. CMD offered hard drives for c64/128 as well as 16MB ram LINK(used like a ram disk) and there were Super CPU accelerators up to 28mhz. This was meant to be a economical home computer at 1/4 of the price.
@@a4000t Well, I had a Vic-20 and C=64 with no accelerator cartridges (I didn't eve know about them) and enver enjoyed any DOS or autoboot. It was always Load "program",8,1. I was envy of the Apple ][, mac, and PC that would autoboot. By the time I knew of the 128 the Amiga was already out and the whole platform, including the Amiga, was dead. The Mac was the new hotness and the future, and the PC AT had the compile speed (12mghz!) I did have access to a C128 wedge and used a terminal program on it remotely to connect to the university comptuer from a friends house. It was a slick little machine, but all I did on itw as the termianl progrma. By then, again, the C=64 even with Geos and a joystick was junk by then and an embarassment back in my dorm room. I swiped an ATT Unix V manual for some ATT 3B1's, learned some basic unUnix, and changed all the root passwords on the new machines LOL.... My gal pal at the time was wiring up circutis on a KIM-1 in her comptuer lab class, and I was writing some expenditure projection program for a Dean on a PET in a storage closet... before I switched over to the PC AT compiling Quickbasic. I've got a PET, many other Commodore machiens, including 128 and 128Ds. Other than the PET I fired up maybe 30 years ago, I ahven't cabled up or booted a single one. The Commdore stuf was about to be thrown away, so I grabbed it and put in my barn as a time capsue. I'm always tempted to setup a 128 because it seems like it was everything I had wanted back then instead of a C64... but I never set it up. I have never fied up any of my Commdore equpiment other than as I said, the PET 30 years ago. I don't dare now, the capacitor is probablyd ried out. There is just no appeal to me to these machines any more, even though I spend a good chunk of my life inside one or two of them on a prompt...
@@a4000t I can't believe I paid something like $250-$300 for a 1541 floppy disk drive. In fact, i have no idea where I got the money from for "infinite storage". Laughable now. I had saved up every penny just to afford a Vic-20 and $69 cassette drive when they first came out, and got the C=64 fro my grandparents as a surprise (and oh what a surprise) Christmas gift. So where the h3ll did I get the money for a floppy drive back then, I have no idea... but I did. And then I went to college, and found out, the whole system was hopelessly obsolete.
@@choppergirl It sounds like you didnt learn much about c64, it was a simple home computer,but in the right hands could do a lot. There were cheap fastload cartridges that gave you 1 key loads and sped up the drive quite a bit,not to mention jiffydos was out for c64 since 1985. The c128 with geos 128 and geocable could print to a HP 5l laser printer no problem. but it all depends what you wanted to do. You should be comparing a mac to an Amiga, which would at least be a fair comparison.
@@a4000t A B&W Mac destroyed the Amiga. Why? It had a square pixel and 1 to1 WYSIWG printing to an Imagewriter. The Amiga was dead out of the box. Awesome 16 million color graphics and a sprite blitter, and sound chip, but that was it. Now, a Mac IIfx against an Amiga 1000.. not even a competition. The IIfx wiped the floor with Amiga brain bits. I later talked my Grandfather into sinking $2500 into a Mac IIci. You don't know how far the Amiga was behind until you thumb through the thick and volumnious Macintosh Progamming Reference guides where were like an encyclopedia set which I di later working in a software store. I know the C-64 plenty. I punched in TinyMon and Speedscript hex code with aloader from Comupte!, and my second self written assembly programplotted a line on a high res graphics screen from x,y to X,Y. Called from Basic, I could do Spirographs or anything else I wanted :) The high res screen took up a large chunk of RAM.
@@richardhookway yeah, the 800XL is pretty wide spread, I do have it, but 1200XL is so much better looking. Its similar with C128 that looks similar to C64c and Amiga 500, but the different proportions and subtile details make it look so much better.
@@madigorfkgoogle9349 I like how they angled the joystick ports on the 1200XL. I remember my favourite game on the 800XL was The Goonies. Loved the demo scene on the C64 and Amiga. Always fun to receive a Jiffy bag in the post full of discs
I have 128D (cleaning it right now...) and I have ordered boxed 128DCR (never opened, will not open it). I do not have normal 128 and not sure I'll ever get one cause I do not like its design. I do not have C64C either for the same "looks too much like an Amiga" reason, bread bin is the best computer design ever... but only after all Atari computers obviously :D In 128D the first thing I did was remove the fan. I intend to put some quiet Noctua in there with some resistor but I really doubt I am putting computer in any kind of danger using it without the fan. Maybe if I was copying floppy disks all day long while mining coins on both 6502 and Z80 ;) More important issue to solve in my 128'D are jailbars for which I ordered Lumafix128. Other than that 128D looks absolutely amazing. You can have it on your desk with CRT on top and it looks as PROFESSIONAL as you can image any computer to look. Really amazing computer... except ridiculously strong jailbars... which I hope can be fixed.
I'd like to get the DCR, but when you look at trying to obtain one, the added cost premium just isn't worth it. 128 flats are just so much easier to obtain - they're more plentiful and they're cheaper. A 1741 drive is also easy to get and fairly cheap. The D and DCR models are just much harder to find and the added cost more than makes up for buying a 128 flat and a 1741. We're looking at like $500 for a 128 flat working and tested, and over $1000 for a D/DCR model (again, working and tested). A 1741 working is around $200 tops. The D/DCR is just a rarer machine overall, or people seemed to junk them so they're rare and hard to get nowadays.
Or back in the late 90s early 2000's you could get these for less than the price of a meal. Once I was at dump and just inside the entrance was a table where people dropped off unwanted electronics (this was before e-waste was a word) a dump employee stuck $10 nzd on a box containing a c128 flat and monitor etc. I still have it. Though sadly its missing a key. I also have a 128d.
the european c128 also had a ascii/din switch on the keyboard, the 220V 1571 drive had a transformer psu, only on 120V it was a switchmode psu, all early c128 hat 16kB Vram, later C128 and C128-D models had 64 kB Vram, like the CR had. there has been only one pcb design for the C128-D and one for the 1571. Only in CR that changed. while 1571 drives were not available, C= castrated the 1571 pcb to be a 1-head drive like the 1541 and hand-modified the 1571 PCBs the fanm can be modified, simple change it to a 12V fan, connect to 5 or 7V (+12V and negative is 5V) or/add a temperature controller keyboards hard to find? mh... may be I should feed evilbay ... :D 15:30 and you have your fun when the part for the 1571 drive gets bad .... On a D you could change to a 1571 pcb, if the 128-D 1571 gets bad what are you doing? changing the complete psu, lose the originality because ... the fan?
Got a C128 in late 1985, mostly for the extra RAM and BASIC 7.0 over the 64. I upgraded to a 128DCR in 1989. CP/M mode got me through college. C128 mode w/VDC got me into shell accounts on the early internet, and was my primary BBS terminal. And yes, C64 mode had games, but this computer was so much more than just a game console.
The flat is the original Commodore wedge. Such a classy look!
Man, the 128 flat is such a beautiful computer. I wish there modern PC cases that were in the same form factor as the 128 flat.
Closest was the Intel GX workstation which I owned in 1993-4. Beautiful form factor. ua-cam.com/video/fK7QMAX0BmQ/v-deo.html
Yes but awkward ona desk due to its depth
Thats the same reason I liked the c128 my fav commodore machine. Had one when I was a kid
What you are describing is basically a laptop with no screen.
I actually used a laptop in this way for a year or so. I broke the screen and couldn't afford to fix it, so I simply removed it, and used the laptop on a desk with a monitor and a mouse.
I remember thinking at the time that it was quite similar to using my old Atari ST, since the keyboard was integrated, and the CD drive was on the right side of the machine where the floppy had been on my ST.
The styling was obviously not like that of a vintage machine, but the form factor made it a sort of spiritual successor.
@@helipilot727 Didn't we all saw a U-shaped wooden monitor stand back in the eighties?
I had a C128 DCR which ran for almost 20 years non stop controlling a 8 bit relay board in an early way of smart home control running a BASIC program. That unit never failed. I loved it!
Why don't you _still_ have it, then?
Because it was a 20yr old home control system?
I really, really loved the DCR I got about 10 years ago. I stumbled across a site that was closing out the 128 DCR internal power supplies, so I purchased a couple of them to have as spares. Really enjoyed tinkering with it, adding a small exhaust fan by the PSU, doing some internal upgrades (video memory), JiffyDOS ROMs... Such good times. Great machines that never realized their market potential.
AWESOME video!!! I have learned a few things that I didn't know about my C128DCR which I have been calling a C128D since I reacquired one about 7 months ago. My first one was also a C128DCR that I bought at Fork Polk LA after getting back from 2 year in Bamberg West Germany. During my 2 years in West Germany, I had left my 1983 Xmas C64 at my mom's house and got myself an SX-64 soon after getting to West Germany.
In the USA we called the flat 128 just a 128,and the DCR a "128D" so you were not wrong :)
Yesterday I opened my C128D for the first time. I was a bit surprised what I saw there, because it was different from most pictures I have seen. The floppy drive is enclosed in a metal housing and so is the power supply. Above the mainboard is a big metal sheet that has lots of holes for ventilation and serves as heat sink for several ICs.
Also, I expected one manual applied wire on the PCB, but instead I got 4 (!). Two on the top and two on the underside.
It may have a plastic case but it feels like a tank.
I have a large Commodore collection but the 128D is one I don't have. I love my DCR and my flat 128. Wife keeps asking if I have enough Commodore stuff and I quickly reply NO! What kind of a question is that?! Do you have enough shoes woman? Hmmm. Some guys hit midlife crisis and need a fancy car or a boat or a motorcycle. Me, I'm happy with more Commodores and games and stuff! :) Viva la Commodore!
I came across a book called "On The Edge", which is a great history of Commodore, and it said that the 128DCR was metal because it was cheaper. probably because Commodore also made things like filing cabinets, so could make the case themselves.
Yes, as the name suggests, the goal of the CR model was Cost Reduction. Commodore was also making PC clones and the desktop Amigas in metal cases, so it was cheaper for them to put the 128D in a metal case as well.
Yep, probably saved a few bucks with the lower part count as well. Compared to the regular D, the DCR has all components consolidated on one board, including the 1571 disk drive controller.
Not sure how many other computers are out there with 3 8bit processors (Z80, 6502 and 8502) all on the same board
@@TheRetroChannel None that I know of, although there was a time when an Apple LaserWriter printer had a more powerful CPU and more RAM than the Mac computers it was connected to.
But metal is more expensive than plastic, that is weird..
@@nopochoclos But injection molds are more expensive. At least they were in the 70s and 80s. It actually started with the early PETs, they had beautifully designed plastic case made by Japan division, but ended up going with the metal case because of the price. That's also mentioned in the book "On The Edge".
They're all beautiful machines. The DCR has the advantage of the metallic case, plastics get brittle with age (not to mention, yellow!). The footprint of the regular 128 is huge, indeed, but who cares about practicality, its desirability is immense!
Fantastic machines. I just put a noctua fan in my 128d and it's quiet as a mouse. 128d wins hands down for me. FWIW, the SD2IEC you have only plugs into the tape port for power. You can either mod it to get power externally, or buy a version that uses an external power source.
These machines are beautiful. Especially those CRT monitors! I've really only ever seen the flat. Thanks for showing these off.
Used to own a flat and a DCR back in the 90's. Second hand market was ripe for the picking ~1995.
I had 2 ext. 1571, 2 ext 1581 and an REU256. The VDC output was EGA compatible and a lot of PC users where upgrading to VGA at that time, so i could pick them up for free.
I loved coding on that computer. I learned Assembler/Machine Code on the C-128. The build in machine code monitor made debugging a breeze.
Every once in a while i find myself missing these days. Chatting with people over packet radio on the 128, trying to dial up BBSs and see what boxes are still there from my hopelessly outdated BBS list from an 80's C64/128 magazine :-D
Never got my hands on a 1572. The ext. double drive, the build in copy commands etc. where written for.
I bought my C128 (flat) in 1993, it was the first thing I worked and saved for and still have it today. At the time I had two breadbins that both had different problems, so I basically just wanted a C128 because it was a C64 that looked like an Amiga. 😀
I bought another one with a 1571 at the markets a few years later (late '90s I think) for about $5. Circa 2005 I needed space and sold it with a bunch of games for next to nothing. 😫
I also had picked up a C128D at the markets cheap too (don't remember how much exactly, probably under $10). It wasn't getting much use and was more of a museum piece. It was in the shed at one point and got water damage. I sold it about 10 years ago not working, wouldn't even power up. Even though it didn't work I regret selling it.
I actually have and use a mid-sized dining room table in the corner of one bedroom to accommodate 2 "flat" C128s placed side-by-side with 2 original C= monitors, 4 external 1571s, 4 1581s and CMD external drives... plus 2 RAMLinks and 1 SuperCPU64... I've sent photos of this setup to friends who've never seen C128s in use before. The sleek design of the flat C128 looks even more impressive when 2 full systems are arranged with all the drives in 2 vertical stacks in the center between the monitors. It's kinda tricky arranging all the drives of both sizes with device numbers 8, 9, 10, and 11 - but it's doable and running my choice of either Wheels or CP/M with 4 active drives is a lot of fun! :)
I have a flat one and a DCR, the latter one being my daily driver. I like the form factor and that it's more silent than the plastic D, but also much more sturdy. It's also great with the 1541U2, which causes some trouble on the flat C128. I like to use the virtual drive 9 and write disks directly onto floppy. As far as games go, I've never encountered any problem so far, everything works smooth. And even a nice amount of demos, also newer ones, work with it. By far not all of them, but enough to keep me amazed. Together with the 1901, this is the perfect Commodore-setup for me personally.
Thanks for comparing the three models and differences, great video!
The SD2IEC only plugs into the cassette port to tap into a 5V power connection. You can mod the connector on an existing SD2IEC to tap into another source or build your own and power it with a cell phone charger. Or... if you're fortunate enough to have an SD2IEC where the cassette connector isn't part of the housing you could take a Dremel tool to it.
Wonder if there are any other options and/or TheFutureWas8bit is working on a C-128D SD2IEC?
@@FlightDreamz Some SD2IEC models have a mini usb port for power.
The flat C128 is definitely the quietest of the lot, and given the age of the computers, it's the easiest in terms of swapping power supplies and disk drives when things go wrong. I've still got my original C128DCR - they don't have a fan but they do make a "hum" when they are operating. Also it is a pain if the 1571 dies inside and has to be fixed / replaced. That said they are pretty robust and I've used mine for a long time. Interestingly, none of the C128s are as reliable as the C64, which might be due to the fact that they are just more complex computers.
You took me down the memory lane. it was 1986 and I got the 128D for my 12th birthday. I remember reading the help documentation booklet, learning programming in Basic, playing games. 😊
I had the flat. Back when this was released, pretty much all desks had a type of mini-hutch that your monitor would sit on. Every computer for home was flat. The TI Color, TI 99/4A, Atari 800, Coleco Adam, etc. So desks were all accommodating. I was hoping to hear more about the Z-80B on all the units. I spent half my time in CP/M mode. At 2MHz vs. 1MHz for the 6510, it was just fun to play with. I thought the D and DCR would be more business, and at the time there was a transition from big and bulky TRS-80 systems to something smaller for business. I would think the metal case was driven not by FCC, but either business rules or ISO rules. A metal case has more shielding to protect from outside magnetic, solar flares, and other radio interference that causes errata. FCC is typically only concerned with outbound (generated) radio interference. I didn't see a crystal on the board. I overclocked my PC-AT from 6 MHz to 8 MHz by going to radio shack and getting a crystal. I wonder if this could be done to these systems.
Yeah we had a hutch type desk back in the day. The 8but guy video I linked in the description includes an interview with Bil Here where he talks about the FCC issue or non issue
Overclocking the majority of these old systems isn't possible with a simple crystal swap. Most of them use the same clock for CPU and video display. So a faster clock would completely screw up the video output as the display wouldn't be able to handle the signal
Great video. I've got a c128d and agree with you on the fan it's noisy as hell! I'm keen to see the next video with the power supply upgrade!
There was also a paint program that used the full 64k VDC memory. I had a DCR back in the day (sad I sold it) but I have a flat one now and it’s fine.
Years and years ago I scored myself a C128D from Germany. Buying hardware from Germany is better for me since I then won't have to use an adapter for the PSU. Now, the price for this computer were ready good due to problems with the NETZEIL. Yeah, my German is non-existent but it means the PSU is faulty. So I looked up this and that for a replacement and found I could build it myself and weeks later the computer arrived and I didn't really have time to look at it just then and... It's still sitting on a shelf. I still wish to fix it. Hopefully I'll manage to do so sometime.
When explaining the metal case you said "the late Bill Herd".......last I checked, Bill Herd is very much still alive.....
Oh yes he's still very much alive. I think I said lead designer not late. At least I hope so 🤣
I owned a commodore 128, I loved the thing. computers were so new and exciting back then.
A great visual comparison! And since you asked... :-) Classic ("flat"/"slab") C128 ALL THE WAY! I would happily accept a "D" model, but am not inspired to buy one -- not just because they're ridiculously expensive here in Canada. I actually consider the integrated PSU and Diskette Drive to be a liability: not just from a maintenance & repair standpoint, but also because in this day and age, I may very well want to plug in a 1541-II (or a Pi1541!) as default Device 8 on any given day. Also, the space saving design of the "D" is only better if you have room to give it a dedicated desk. If you're like me and swap your regular C64 for a 128 as needed, I'd much rather push my monitor back a few inches than pick it up and rearrange everything. On the DCR's issue of constrained access to the cassette port, I wonder if a cassette port voltmeter from Electroware would fit in there; it measures 4.9cm and has a pass-through. Otherwise, it seems the market might benefit from someone making a custom pass-through PCB for that slot. Finally, it's nice to see an ARMSID appear here. I replaced the (working!) SIDs in both of my C128s with ARMSID, which doesn't bother me since the C128 was never meant to be an "actual" C64 (just "C64 compatible"). The ARMSID not only removes one major source of heat, but its ability to emulate the 8580 on demand, in combination with a 64KB VDC upgrade, presumably allows the regular C128 to run software written specifically for the C128D(CR) as intended. -- JC @ Basic Bites
the internal drive is switchable to another deivce #(solder pads inside),and even then you can also change it in software. the psu is very robust in the DCR,and easily repairable if it does fail. The SID in the 128 is 9V,not 12v like the older SID and doesn't run hot as the older SID. The DCR is a fine machine.
Great video. Thanks. I've just got my 128 out and have been tinkering with it which led me to your channel. I've liked and subscribed :)
and left a comment below :)
I had a flat 128 with an 8580 SID. It was the revision that nearly eliminated the volume register click, which made sample playback very quiet. It also had the VIC-IIe revision that produced sub-pixel white dots when changing the border/background color registers, causing a lot of "snow" in games and demos that used raster effects.
COMMODORE RULES! You have a nice collection. I have always collected those
I own two 128DCR machines and one C128. In my opinion, the 128DCR with its metal case was the best unit made. I added a quiet fan and JiffyDos and it makes the perfect retro computer.
On my 128D, I replaced the fan with a Noctua fan and used the in line noise reduction cable. It's now quieter than my PC.
It's lucky that the fan power connector still compliment modern fans. But make sure you get the fan with the right voltage.
I used: Noctua NF-A6x25 FLX
There is an SD2IEC version powered from the User Port. It can be used without problems with all models from the family: C64, C128, C128D and C128DCR.
Thanks for the comparison of the 3 models. I have a C128 and C128D CR. My preference goes to the C128D CR. Never understood the attraction to the 128D.
I just acquired a 128D, with keyboard along with a bunch of C64s and an A500. Been too afraid to touch it yet, as well as caught up testing all the 64s. Your vids are helping me get my head around the hardware and learn how to approach the testing and repairs.
I have a 128DCR, it has the space to add the fan and I added it with a good quality Sunon but I made a circuit that automatically regulates the fan rpm according to the ambient temperature, it takes a little regular work because you have to do it when they happen a few hours using it but once regulated it does not bother or reach the maximum rpm.
The power supply in your 128 DCR does not seem to be the original, can you tell me what you put in it? Greetings from Argentina and congratulations for such a good explanatory video.😃
That's a great idea having a temperature sensor to regulate the fan RPM. I wonder if there's a simple, almost universal module that can do the same. So many systems out there with fans that just run at full speed that would benefit from something like that. Hmm, another thing to look up on AliExpress 😄
In the C128D you can replace the fan with a Noctua fan and a voltage reducer, will get the benefits and very low noise. Or even at 12v you have the Noctua NF-A6x25 FLX, quite silent at 19dB.
I have the C128 and the C128Dcr.
Would love a DCR, just because it reminds me so much of my first Amiga 1000 (which I adored). Great comparison.
I think the dcr metal case would of possibly been a better case for the 1000!
For me it’s the 128D. The flat 128 kinda screams “cheap Amiga”. The 128D really sets itself apart with its Desktop style. And if I’m going purely C64, then it’s Breadbin for me.
True, but then again the Amiga 1000 also has that desktop style. Does that make the A500 the true "cheap Amiga" 😲
Hey, the C128 flat came first! It's a case of the Amiga screams 'Expensive 128' :)
I have the C128DCR and really love it. Have to repair the famous head damage on the drive. Maybe you have an idea how to do this? Hard to find replacement parts nowadays.
Yeah, unfortunately the 1571 that I used was just a prop really as it also suffers the head damage. I'll look into it one day
I would love either of the 128D models, simply because moving the keyboard doesn’t require you to move the whole computer, however they are even more expensive and difficult to get hold than the flat version, so I’m sticking with the flat one I already have (with the 64K VRAM upgrade).
I managed to get my hands on both the Flat and the DCR. I like the wedge style of the former and the metal case of the latter, and I'm not really bothered by the lack of a keyboard cubby or handle. The fact each has its own SID and VDC models makes them just different enough for me.
There are many various sd2iec designs.The one I have allow external power source (like from any USB charger), some use joystick port for power. Once I've even seen battery powered one.
Back in the early 80's these were heaven, but today, they are so rancid I couldn't even stand to look at mine.. which I haven't touched in 25 years and got free as trash along with a pet, c-64's, vics, and a whole garage full of other 8bits.
I went from a 64 to a Macintosh Se, which was like going from an abandoned obsolete system to almost absolute Nirvana..t he only thing better was a Macintosh II or IIfx.
Yeah, I can't stand to watch this video any longer... lol...
too much heartbreak, too many memories, too many dead end roads and shattered dreams.
Yep, from a C64 running GEOS with a Joystick and 1541 with Commodore Printer to a Macintosh SE with ADB keyboard and ADB mouse and 20mb SCSI harddrive and Hypercard/Microsoft Word/MacPaint and a StyleWriter II was indeed going from trash to Nirvana...
Yell at me all you want that I'm wrong... but look at the the Amigas North American Sales numbers... nobody bought it because... it just wasn't all that. If it had been, we would of been all over it. Great hardware at a mmm maybe good price, but a bad joke for operating system and software. Well, there was no killer app for it.
The IBM had Wordperfect and Wordstar and and dBase and Lotus Spreadsheet... the Mac had MacWrite and Pagemaker... MIcrosoft Word and Microsoft Excel. Whole shops set up with PCs or Macintoshes and made money... doing Business apps or desktop publishing.
But what did the Amiga have going for it? Nothing. A bouncing ball demo and some full color games. It was a Sega Genesis with akeyboard :)
I luckily own all of them, nice restaurated and i am very happy with every type. The DCR has a much better build from the quality side of view and it might be more reliable too. But anyway, it is retro stuff and brings a lot of fun to play with 😀
Incase it wasn't absolutely clear he motherboard in the C128 and 128D is the same (did you spot both say (Chicken Lips) "Commodore C128" in the middle and both have the hole in the middle for the C128 case post)... just a couple of components were changed to suit the respective case.
As for choosing which one is for me... I've got all 3... gotta Catch'em ALL! 😁
Why not just turn up the volume on the radio or TV to drown out the fan noise? I guess I'm just used to having standalone hepa filters around the house always producing ambient fan noise. Thanks for the video.
Hey mate, I imagine you are looking at camera feedback as you record this? It is quite uncanny how you just touch the parts without ever looking at them, instead being locked into the camera... for example the handle at 02:30
Haha, almost. I'm actually looking at the reflection on my plasma tv that's sitting just behind the camera.
I have both Commodore 128 and Commodore 128DCR. I prefer DCR since it's got the built-in C1571 disk drive and power supply. I wish they had made more programs/games for C128 back in the day, instead of making it for more popular C64 due to its larger user base... Alas...
I remember Kmart Australia sold the 128D for a while. The 128 was cool and all but I, like most people, were pretty happy with the c64. And although the Amiga wasn't as huge in the Australian market as the c64 was it was still fairly popular and considerably more popular than the 128 and its variants.
Yeah. When I had finally saved up enough money to buy my first C64 I noticed the C128 flat was on special at KMart (Same price as the C64). I asked why and they said they were discontinued and don't waste your money on them and get a C64. Not knowing any better and being new to computers, I did. To this day I kick myself and wish I had bought the C128 instead. Such is life.
@@csmall816 Typical Kmart employee not knowing enough about their own merchandise.
I have a 128DCR with the warranty sticker still in it. Have not opened it yet. Got the German Keyboard for it. I hope to get to it one of these days. (Gee Son someday this will all be yours)
Commodore 128 DCR owner here. It's my favourite 8-bit out of the ones I own. The keyboard feels great and it's nice and quiet. The main problem I have with it is it's inability to have the internal drive number changed. But that's far less of an issue than I've been told. I just changed my pi1541 to be device 9 and that works fine for most software.
The other issue I have is the picture quality isn't as sharp as the Commodore 64 breadbin I have, even when plugged into the same model Commodore monitor.
I just bought a flat 128 and a 1571! We’ll see how it goes when it arrives, thanks for the video!
128D, with the fan replaced with a Noctua (or similar) modern fan, with a resistor inline, to slow it to about 50% of its max speed. Its a bare min mod, and solves the only real issue.
Buying a D model is much and much more expensive compared to a flat model. Also it is fun to "setup" your c128 flat, connect drives, power supplies, monitors etc. It's part of the deal ... c128 time for daddy!
I owned the Commodore 128 D metal box case model made and bought here in the USA
I Had the 128 flat. I didn't do it, but the answer for where to put the monitor is to make a stand that will fit over the 128, 3 pieces of MDF or some such will do it, and you could, at a pinch make it accommodate the disk drive too. Like you I sold my system, boo hoo, it was a 1 x C128 flat, Phillips 80 col green screen, rs232 adapter, star DM printer, 2 x 1541 FDD and 1 x SFD1001 FDD with 110 to 240 power supply and interface, Superbase128 and Superscript 128. I have never stopped regretting selling it and all I could get (at the time) was £45 on eBay. Sigh. Even my shiny new iMac and 2010 MacPro cheese grater and Dell machines haven't taken the pain away. Poor me :).
My dude, very cool video. However, FYI, you have an unfortunate spelling mistake on your thumbnail.
Just thought you might appreciate the info. Cheers.
Haha, thanks. Somebody pointed it out not long after the video went live, but I'm just going to leave it as is. It's kinda funny
My uncle got a C128; I can't remember if it was a DCR or a flat, but I wasn't jealous for long as I got an Amiga 500 a couple of years later (I had a choice between going to Florida/Disney 1200 miles away and an Amiga and I chose Amiga!).
Games never really embraced the C128 (Hey, Ultima IV had music. Wow). But the Amiga, while not as prolific as the C64, had quite the eye candy selection and my college A3000 (25Mhz 030 with 5MB of RAM) got me into everything else including the early internet after I upgraded to 18MB ram and a Picasso 2 graphics card.
I didn't get a PC until 1999 and largely switched to OSX in 2007 (2012 Maci Mini Server upgraded to 16GB RAM and a 2TB SSD can still run Windows 10 today, but it gets little use compared to macOS, although that will change as browsing support dies for it, but it still serves whole house media). It's probably time for a new computer anyway. I have PS4/5 for gaming so there's been no rush as my phone can do most things now anyway.
I have, and am in the process of restoring a C128 Flat, but I'm really looking to get my hands on the DCR someday.
Actually the design of the c128 flat as you call it, was designed longer so the monitor can actually sit on it and only the keyboard would be showing, see Bill Herd videos about the C=64 40th birthday he teslls us all about it.
The C-128D and DCR also had more RAM available for the misbegotten 80-column chip, allowing for a richer color palate in 80-column mode. The flat c-128 can be upgraded with more video memory if you're handy with the ol' soldering iron.
I'm pretty sure the plastic case D's only have 16K, just like the flat. Also I don't know if it allows more colours, perhaps more video modes, which could be used to simulate more colours. But yeah simple upgrade with a soldering iron or there's a few drop in boards out there
The flat C128 has an older and buggy BASIC (1985). The C128D(CR) has a fixed from 1986. But don't ask me for the bugs...
Hah, all good. There's a list on Zimmer's with all the changes. I didn't go into it because it's unlikely most people will trigger one so they probably would never notice
That 64k of video RAM was used by BASIC-8 software. Also used by various software protection removers such as... damn, gotta get back to you, Software Support International does not appear to exist on the internet. But I have an old catalog at home. Ah! Maverick 5.0! By SSI.
I had a 1084 monitor with my Amiga and I deeple, deeply regret doing it away. Still got the Amiga though, along with 2 C64s (83 & 84), a VIC-20 and a 32k Mitsubishi MSX machine.
I bought mine back when I was living in Oregon(USA of course) and it is a metal case, I just checked it a couple of minutes ago and yeh, it's metal. It was only called C128 D, not DCR. I hadn't even heard of the DCR until recently watching UA-cam videos on the subject. Can't get it out to check the label as there is too much stuff that would have to be moved first. Note: the metal case still looks good, the keyboard not so much as it has severely darkened.
Last I used it was to hook up a Win 95 computer to it to transfer some files using the modem to modem at 1200 baud. (Win95 has a terminal program Hyperterm) It worked well back then, although I'm looking to recap it before trying anything now, and it needs the 1571 head replaced(I have a spare) So it should be good.
Back in the days i had the C128D (plastic case) with a 1901 monitor and an external 1571 and the REU1700. With this setup i made my first steps with C programming in CP/M.
Before this i started with the C64 Basic and machine language. When i could choose, i would try to get the same setup as i had.
Why don't you _still_ have them then?
@@HelloKittyFanMan. No storage space, needed the money for a PC for university
for the tape port, instead of extending the serial cable just make an extension for the tape port, even maybe in an SLI style connector so that the SDIEC sits atop the case on the right hand side
The 128 and 128d has a white wire I believe from the z80 chip to correct the ted chip timing issue at the foot of the board (from memory sorry) I dont see it on the dcr model. Is that a fix ? Or did I just not see it ?
Yes the whole board was redesigned with the 128DCR so I guess they fixed that issue along with it
The tape port on my DCR has a cut out. Strange yours does not.
Its a shame that all 128s have horrendous jail bars in 40 column mode.
Interesting. There's still a cutout there, but it's only big enough to fit a datasette connector. Everything else just gets stopped by the case
I currently own 3 C128s... all of them are "flat". One of them has the 64K VDC upgrade. The other 2 will too, soon. :) I owned a C128DCR in the mid/late 1990s and *hated* how it was very difficult to use in conjunction with my RAMLink and SuperCPU64. Since both extend its depth considerably, it was very difficult to find a desk which accommodated them. I ultimately *did* find one with a raised shelf for the monitor - but it was still not ideal for daily use. The RAMLink and SuperCPU64 have useful switches, buttons and lights on them which were difficult to reach and impossible to see while plugged in behind the C128DCR *and* under the monitor shelf. I still have and use my SuperCPU64 and RAMLink with my flat C128 with 64K VDC upgrade (since I have IPaint and IPaint graphics which require it). Having external 1571s and 1581s plus an FD-2000 and an HD-100 which still works like new... yes, it needs room but at least I can access and see everything easily when needed.
A Noctua Fan could do magic here.
For every 40 or so C64's i come across, i find one C128 "Flat". Ive read there were 6 or so million 128's sold and over 20 million C64's... Considering the 128 was only on sale for a couple of years (if that) and it came out at the beginning of the 16bit era, i really doubt these figures.
Ive never even seen one 128D in the wild. The 128 i bought i still have it but yet to see its potential - being 4 computers in one (if you include GEOS) is very unique for any computer of any era really.
I don't recall the fan in the 128D I had was noisy. Perhaps simply a case of old age and mechanical wear? Replacing the fan and/or installing a fan controller shouldn't be that difficult.
I'd sure love to get one again.
Yeah this one is loud (although it didn't really come across in the video), and that's after cleaning out the fan. I could replace it with a Noctua or similar but it would still be sucking in dust
I would love to have a C128. But their prices skyrocketed and I'm happy with the breadbin C64.
Would like to see an FPGA C128 or THEC128 released because spare parts are hard to find for 128's. Prefer the C128DCR and thanks for the video.
Ha, did I spot a SMD IC on the DCR? This must be the one of the earliest Commodore machines that use SMD. The Amigas had to wait until the 90ies if I am not wrong.
Ha, yeah possibly. The C64 RF modulators from around 84 onwards used SMDs, but they were made by Mitsumi I believe so maybe that doesn't count
Back in the days I had 128D. It was very easy to just add a resistor, throttling the noisy fan. machine was running for years without any issues.
i just bagged a C128 Flat with the PSU off ebay for $150 all that was wrong was Bad Basic ROMS
swop the fan out with a new low noise Noctua and it only needs that cassette port for power
Flat all the way for me. I just like that computer-in-keyboard aesthetic.
128 was designed for business. but x86 with dos had that on lock.
I loved my 128d but it went out very quickly because of the amiga 1000
What is that computer behind you on rhe top shelf with the spiderman on it?? It looks like a weird combination of VIC20, 64c, and 128.
It's a C64 in an aftermarket case. The cases were made in South Australia shortly after Commodore released the 64C. It was like an upgrade for those who already had a breadbin but wanted a 64C style without buying another 64
@@TheRetroChannel Interesting.
Hi, thanks for the awesome video! do you think MSSIAH cardridge would fit DCR?
It should, I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work
@@TheRetroChannel thanks 👍
For extra completeness there's also the somewhat rare 128CR model, different board in the wedge case. It does have a few interesting differences to the other ones even though it's largely based on the 128DCR schematic.
The DCR board was probably designed by C= Germany in Braunschweig, which makes it a bit interesting that the DCR was the one sold in the US and Europe has a lot of the plastic 128Ds.
Obviously the correct answer is to own all of them, wonderful machines.
In Europe the DCR replaced the plastic D as soon as it was available.
Interesting 🤔 Do you know if it had the upgraded VRAM and basic's bug fixes like the DCR model did?
Hi, thanks for the vid, for the noise may i suggest a a noctua low noise fan that is what i done on mine now it is very silent
Thanks, yes I certainly considered a noctua. There are a couple of other reasons I want to replace the whole thing besides the noise. But I'll explain all that in the next C128 video
This is a need to have for all my MoFi vinyls with digital masters.
Cool, Mark! I'd never seen the 128D (plastic case before). I had a 128 (which I bought pretty early on at a discount (for either 170 or 230 USD, I don't recall) because it was a store "demo" model (no box). I sold the 128 with a 1571 and GEOS 128 to a college friend for $400 USD c. 1988 to put the money toward an Amiga 500. Ha, I haven't seen him since college, but just found him on facebook - maybe worth checking-in on whether he still has it! :)
For me, the only compelling reason to have the 128 (rather than 64) was its sexy look and to run GEOS 128, while keeping C64 compatibility. (Many of us booted CP/M once and never again.) I used the 128 heavily for school work for a year, so any of these would have been equally good. I did ogle the professional looking C128DCR (which we just called the 128D in the U.S.), but there was no reason to buy it knowing the Amiga 500 was coming.
Haha, yeah I think everyone with a 128 has fired up cp/m mode once (and only once). Dare I say your friend like most people would have discarded or sold the 128 many moons ago, but who knows.
At the moment I think there's about 50 c64 games that can take advantage of the 2mhz mode on the 128. Some of them smooth out gameplay, others just improve loading times. Not sure if there's more out there that just hasn't been documented yet, or perhaps we'll see some patches for other games that could benefit from the bump in speed
@@TheRetroChannel Re: my friend, I'm curious what the mindset was at the time to acquire the 128 then. I was going over to a friend's house all the time who had an Amiga 1000, ran a BBS, and we did all these cool things like build a room-sized XY mode oscilloscope with a laser and speakers plugged into the Amiga's stereo outputs.
There was so much buzz about an affordable Amiga [500] that it was "easy" to leave the [also great] 128 behind.
Thanks again for the tour - lots of reworking of the 128 by the C= engineers!
Yep, with the A1000 and A500 available it would be hard to justify getting the 128 (unless you didn't already have a 64)
Being in the UK I think would go for the C128 the D where just these mythical beasts from over the pond that we only saw in glossy magazine pics
I only have a 128 Flat I bought from Germany and it’s a great machine, I would never part with it. I fitted a SIDFX board to mine and now it has dual 6581’s so you can play some of the stereo tracks people have written.
I bought the early version of the C-128 and got many years of use out it. But the power supply died and I never got around getting it replaced. Maybe one day I'll get the supply replaced. I loved using this machine.
Another else use the Pocket Software series in the native C-128 mode? I really got a lot of use out of the database and word processor.
There was not a lot of software that was exclusively for the 128. It would have been too limiting to software sales to write software that would not also run on the C64. If you have a C64, or 64C, you're not missing much by not having a C128.
Great comparison video! Living in America, I think I'd go for the 128,, because I don't think the other 2 models have a cartridge slot; although I think they all look nice. Is the 1571 disk drive more durable then the original 1541 disk drive? I don't think it's any faster, although you can still use something like the Epyx Fast Load cartridge with it.
Yes The 1571 is a lot better than a 1541 drive - for a start it’s double sided, so twice the capacity. It has burst mode built in, which is effectively a fast loader, though it only works as one on a C128. It acts as a 1541 on C64s and VIC-20s and sadly on a C128 in C64 mode. The other big difference is that it can read MFM disks, ie ones from non-commodore machines if you have appropriate software. That means you can read, for example CP/M disks from Kaypro machines, and even MSDOS disks.
I have never owned any of them, but based on this video I prefer the D, especially if you fix the fan noise.
I like wedges. The DCR is nice though. I would make an extension for the tape port if I had one.
Lack of a built in auto boot DOS, lack of a hard drive, and slow processor speed is what killed the Commodore line. Those three things killed it. The PC AT and Mac got them right and thereafter it became an infinite race of CPU speed increases, hard drive size increases, and OS upgrades.
The c128 willl autoboot off floppy. CMD offered hard drives for c64/128 as well as 16MB ram LINK(used like a ram disk) and there were Super CPU accelerators up to 28mhz. This was meant to be a economical home computer at 1/4 of the price.
@@a4000t Well, I had a Vic-20 and C=64 with no accelerator cartridges (I didn't eve know about them) and enver enjoyed any DOS or autoboot. It was always Load "program",8,1. I was envy of the Apple ][, mac, and PC that would autoboot. By the time I knew of the 128 the Amiga was already out and the whole platform, including the Amiga, was dead. The Mac was the new hotness and the future, and the PC AT had the compile speed (12mghz!)
I did have access to a C128 wedge and used a terminal program on it remotely to connect to the university comptuer from a friends house. It was a slick little machine, but all I did on itw as the termianl progrma. By then, again, the C=64 even with Geos and a joystick was junk by then and an embarassment back in my dorm room. I swiped an ATT Unix V manual for some ATT 3B1's, learned some basic unUnix, and changed all the root passwords on the new machines LOL....
My gal pal at the time was wiring up circutis on a KIM-1 in her comptuer lab class, and I was writing some expenditure projection program for a Dean on a PET in a storage closet... before I switched over to the PC AT compiling Quickbasic.
I've got a PET, many other Commodore machiens, including 128 and 128Ds. Other than the PET I fired up maybe 30 years ago, I ahven't cabled up or booted a single one. The Commdore stuf was about to be thrown away, so I grabbed it and put in my barn as a time capsue. I'm always tempted to setup a 128 because it seems like it was everything I had wanted back then instead of a C64... but I never set it up. I have never fied up any of my Commdore equpiment other than as I said, the PET 30 years ago. I don't dare now, the capacitor is probablyd ried out.
There is just no appeal to me to these machines any more, even though I spend a good chunk of my life inside one or two of them on a prompt...
@@a4000t I can't believe I paid something like $250-$300 for a 1541 floppy disk drive. In fact, i have no idea where I got the money from for "infinite storage". Laughable now. I had saved up every penny just to afford a Vic-20 and $69 cassette drive when they first came out, and got the C=64 fro my grandparents as a surprise (and oh what a surprise) Christmas gift. So where the h3ll did I get the money for a floppy drive back then, I have no idea... but I did. And then I went to college, and found out, the whole system was hopelessly obsolete.
@@choppergirl It sounds like you didnt learn much about c64, it was a simple home computer,but in the right hands could do a lot. There were cheap fastload cartridges that gave you 1 key loads and sped up the drive quite a bit,not to mention jiffydos was out for c64 since 1985. The c128 with geos 128 and geocable could print to a HP 5l laser printer no problem. but it all depends what you wanted to do. You should be comparing a mac to an Amiga, which would at least be a fair comparison.
@@a4000t A B&W Mac destroyed the Amiga. Why? It had a square pixel and 1 to1 WYSIWG printing to an Imagewriter. The Amiga was dead out of the box. Awesome 16 million color graphics and a sprite blitter, and sound chip, but that was it. Now, a Mac IIfx against an Amiga 1000.. not even a competition. The IIfx wiped the floor with Amiga brain bits. I later talked my Grandfather into sinking $2500 into a Mac IIci.
You don't know how far the Amiga was behind until you thumb through the thick and volumnious Macintosh Progamming Reference guides where were like an encyclopedia set which I di later working in a software store.
I know the C-64 plenty. I punched in TinyMon and Speedscript hex code with aloader from Comupte!, and my second self written assembly programplotted a line on a high res graphics screen from x,y to X,Y. Called from Basic, I could do Spirographs or anything else I wanted :) The high res screen took up a large chunk of RAM.
I feel that the C128 "doorstopper" is the second best looking 8bit PC right after Atari 1200XL.
I had both of those back in the 80s
@@richardhookway I have the C128 in my collection, no ATARI 1200XL yet, Im from Europe and those were not sold here, so its expensive to get one.
@@madigorfkgoogle9349 Sorry my mistake it was the 800XL. The 128 followed and then the Amiga.
@@richardhookway yeah, the 800XL is pretty wide spread, I do have it, but 1200XL is so much better looking. Its similar with C128 that looks similar to C64c and Amiga 500, but the different proportions and subtile details make it look so much better.
@@madigorfkgoogle9349 I like how they angled the joystick ports on the 1200XL. I remember my favourite game on the 800XL was The Goonies. Loved the demo scene on the C64 and Amiga. Always fun to receive a Jiffy bag in the post full of discs
I have 128D (cleaning it right now...) and I have ordered boxed 128DCR (never opened, will not open it). I do not have normal 128 and not sure I'll ever get one cause I do not like its design. I do not have C64C either for the same "looks too much like an Amiga" reason, bread bin is the best computer design ever... but only after all Atari computers obviously :D In 128D the first thing I did was remove the fan. I intend to put some quiet Noctua in there with some resistor but I really doubt I am putting computer in any kind of danger using it without the fan. Maybe if I was copying floppy disks all day long while mining coins on both 6502 and Z80 ;) More important issue to solve in my 128'D are jailbars for which I ordered Lumafix128. Other than that 128D looks absolutely amazing. You can have it on your desk with CRT on top and it looks as PROFESSIONAL as you can image any computer to look. Really amazing computer... except ridiculously strong jailbars... which I hope can be fixed.
I'd like to get the DCR, but when you look at trying to obtain one, the added cost premium just isn't worth it. 128 flats are just so much easier to obtain - they're more plentiful and they're cheaper. A 1741 drive is also easy to get and fairly cheap. The D and DCR models are just much harder to find and the added cost more than makes up for buying a 128 flat and a 1741. We're looking at like $500 for a 128 flat working and tested, and over $1000 for a D/DCR model (again, working and tested). A 1741 working is around $200 tops. The D/DCR is just a rarer machine overall, or people seemed to junk them so they're rare and hard to get nowadays.
*1571
Or back in the late 90s early 2000's you could get these for less than the price of a meal. Once I was at dump and just inside the entrance was a table where people dropped off unwanted electronics (this was before e-waste was a word) a dump employee stuck $10 nzd on a box containing a c128 flat and monitor etc. I still have it. Though sadly its missing a key. I also have a 128d.
the european c128 also had a ascii/din switch on the keyboard,
the 220V 1571 drive had a transformer psu, only on 120V it was a switchmode psu,
all early c128 hat 16kB Vram, later C128 and C128-D models had 64 kB Vram, like the CR had.
there has been only one pcb design for the C128-D and one for the 1571. Only in CR that changed.
while 1571 drives were not available, C= castrated the 1571 pcb to be a 1-head drive like the 1541 and hand-modified the 1571 PCBs
the fanm can be modified, simple change it to a 12V fan, connect to 5 or 7V (+12V and negative is 5V) or/add a temperature controller
keyboards hard to find? mh... may be I should feed evilbay ... :D
15:30 and you have your fun when the part for the 1571 drive gets bad .... On a D you could change to a 1571 pcb, if the 128-D 1571 gets bad
what are you doing? changing the complete psu, lose the originality because ... the fan?
No matter what kind it is. They are all very nice. Nice video, thanks ❤
The story is as simple CR (cost reduced). They redesigned the main board to reduce cost and needed to change the case to accomodate it.